Mini 837 - Stratego Mafia! (Game Over!)

[ortolan]

/confirm

[ortolan]

Hello!!!

[ortolan]

I'm not sure what the purpose of "breadcrumbing" then drawing attention to the breadcrumb is supposed to serve Gorrad, especially when I don't see you as having done anything scummy. Unless Sajin surprises me I think he just completely misunderstood what you meant in your opening post.

More importantly, consider the following argument:

P1: Kast was scum in Poof! Mafia, and won
P2: Kast was scum in Notre Dame Mafia, and won
P3: Kast was scum in MKM2 Mafia, and won

- Kast is always scum when he plays with me (and thus far, always wins, grr)
- Kast is scum this game

Vote: Kast

[ortolan]

btw just to get on record; dramonic's 35 is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game so far but I needed to get that Kast vote off my chest

[ortolan]

ElectricBadger I don't understand what provoked that post. You are answering the question of "why it is a bad idea to mass-claim". I agree it is a bad idea to mass-claim, but I never brought up the idea, nor did dramonic, nor did Gorrad. I simply don't see what you're responding to.

Now, the reason dramonic's 35 is scummy: FoSes are always scummy, unless the person is already voting someone they are sure they want lynched, and the FoSee is a secondary target.

dramonic's previous vote was a random vote on Hoops. Gorrad had two votes. He announced suspicion of Gorrad, but only FoSed him, rather than voted him. This is inexplicable, as he should only be FoSing someone if his intends his actual vote seriously (and more seriously than on the person he is FoSing). But he can't have done, because his vote on Hoops was purely random. I also see him as being wary of reaching the 3 votes mark on Gorrad (which is something people often freak out about unnecessarily). For reference I acquired this tell when I used FoS as newbie scum when I didn't have a vote out, which roflcopter promptly told me stands for "friend of scum", so it is validated by experience.

The other reason the post is scummy is that he jumped to the conclusion Gorrad was implying Spy, Bomb or Flag aren't town roles; there is no evidence of this, he just said he would be stupid to.

So, dramonic, why did you FoS Gorrad instead of voting him?

Gorrad, why did you breadcrumb prematurely? Also why would you be silly to claim Spy, Bomb or Flag?

and to make sure I'm not accused of hypocrisy

Unvote
Vote: dramonic

[ortolan]

Personally I don't see setup discussion being helpful at this stage, at all. I'm sure things will start to make sense when we wagon someone/people to a claim etc. if they aren't already.

Almaster: I said why dramonic's post was scummy in 42.

I still find dramonic suspicious due to his fence-sitting.

[ortolan]

I will reiterate that I really don't think any speculation about setup is helpful for this game, I would very much prefer if it was left off the table entirely, at least until a claim is made. Yes it is fun to speculate about the setup but I don't see it doing anything but potentially hurting town.

---

I very, very much dislike ElectricBadger's post above me.

Vote: ElectricBadger

[ortolan]

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

Wait...why are you asking him to unvote himself if according to your own vote, his is well-placed? This makes no sense. Do you genuinely think Gorrad is scum, or not?

Kast: Why are you persisting in setup discussion? What pro-town outcome do you foresee it having? Why are you making vague statements like the following wherein you don't even attack anyone specifically?

I am inclined to believe that people who assumed (or posted as if assuming) this was true could have more information about the game setup that suggests this is the case (such as scum buddies with different role names and/or information about specific townie roles).

---

ElectricBadger's last post had heaps of scummy content.

I still really don't understand this. The purpose of breadcrumbing is to leave subtle hints of evidence without drawing NK attention and making yourself a target. By announcing such, you've performed the exact opposite: you highlighted yourself as a power role and failed to deliver any worthwhile information.

There is no evidence he highlighted himself as a power-role.

This

looks like

a big scum move to me: quasi-claiming a power role to mislead a doctor or appear to have some authority or knowledge to influence a lynch (possibly a setup for a future fake claim?). Too much deliberate obfuscation here to be a townie doing an investigation - such a nonsensical clue is unlikely to be understood post mortem either.

Don't like the tentative language of "looks like". Also again, there is no evidence he claimed a power role. Also the case "he might be fake-breadcrumbing in order to 'influence a lynch'" is purely speculative and merit-less, especially when, again, there is no evidence he's breadcrumbed a power role.

What's the relevance of his breadcrumb being understood post-mortem here anyway? Even if he was breadcrumbing a power-role, which there's no evidence of, we know there was no night 0, therefore there are no meaningful results he could be breadcrumbing at this stage in the game. If he's merely breadcrumbing the nature of his role, then it's irrelevant whether the breadcrumb is understood "post-mortem", because we'll get his role name when he dies anyway. So basically, you shrouded all these possibilities in vague language, but they don't actually make sense when examined.

I'm reading this as bombs=mafia, and Gorrad is one: this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection and get our power roles killed off.

There is absolutely no basis for the inference that bombs=mafia. There is also absolutely no evidence that Gorrad is a bomb, or is claiming a bomb (in fact there is evidence to the contrary), even if it were true that "bombs=mafia". This part of the case is truly horrible.

Gorrad's 'breadcrumb' has no benefit at all for town, and a lot of potential gain for mafia. Thus, Gorrad=scum.

You mean potential gain according to the horribly improbably scenarios you just cooked up.

Although I really dislike the movements towards role claiming I can see misguided townies trying it, and

this feels like solid evidence

, so-

Again I hate the tentative language. Also there is no solid evidence against Gorrad, only figments of your imagination.

I see it as more likely EB is scum making such illogical reaches of this nature rather than town making such illogical reaches of this nature.

[ortolan]

Why would vanillas not breadcrumb if they had a unique role/role title in the game?

[ortolan]

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

Wait...why are you asking him to unvote himself if according to your own vote, his is well-placed? This makes no sense. Do you genuinely think Gorrad is scum, or not?

Someone voting for him- or herself is always bad in my opinion. So as long as Gorrad's voting for himself, he is anti-town to me.

It's more the point that you are voting him, which implies he is the scummiest player to you. If that is the case then I don't see why you'd want him to unvote himself. I wouldn't have a problem with scum assisting in lynching themselves.

Feel free to examine my meta though: a townie post.

What about your meta should we glean from this post?

[ortolan]

Badger would you mind explaining to us the relevance of that post you linked to in a town game of yours in 86. I don't see it.

[ortolan]

At least one

of the players not voting currently is guaranteed to be scum.

ElectricBadger actually is quite reasonable at defending himself. But this is a trait one holds independently of their alignment. I'm about 50/50 on him being scum atm. I don't like him pulling the "resigned" persona saying "my only contribution may very well be calling out the scum on my wagon"; then in his last post just reiterating that Kast is scum without trying to analyse the other players voting him- he just says "your scumbuddies and nervous town are willing to jump on a bandwagon that isn't them." Still, I'm about 50/50.

I'm very curious as to why Kast seems so certain of ElectricBadger's alignment. He is literally insistent he is scum constantly and I don't think there's any basis to be tunneled on him quite that hard. Kast how certain are you that EB will flip scum when lynched?

I must also make the point that I can't distinguish Kast's play from any of the previous games I've been in with him, in all of which he was scum.

I'm also pretty neutral on both Gorrad and Hoops from other games I've played with them.

[ortolan]

other question: Gorrad, does the spy has a number in your set?

This is role fishing?

Yep.

Unvote
Vote: dramonic

(L-2)

Can you provide any pro-town explanation for the question dramonic?

[ortolan]

I just read dramonic's post history (yep, in the time since I just posted). This is a good wagon.

[ortolan]

I see no reason why the discussion of his role confirms or even suggests he is town

[ortolan]

You do understand why he's is almost completely confirmed, yes?

If only we could all say this when we were being wagoned.

[ortolan]

then you prove you are scum ortolan, congratulations.

I am a town numbered unit. Gorrad claimed very early that his order was different than the order in this game. When asked, he said his Marshall is ranked 1, which is indeed opposite of the order in this game, proving he is also a numbered unit. Unless the mafia/town characters are arbitrarly chosen, he is town. The fact you miss something so obvious strongly hints you DON'T have a number, from there you are either bomb or flag. Oh look, roles that in general consensus, are mafia.

Vote: Ortolan

this sucks, none of this has any bearing on Gorrad's or my own alignment (additionally there is another reason why your conclusion about the setup is pretty much guaranteed to be wrong, but I'm not going into it because I don't see it as pro-town to do so.)

[ortolan]

of course, it doesn't decrease the possibility you're scum either, because if you were you'd want to (try to) WIFOM down the lane you are.

[ortolan]

Since when do we unvote on vanilla claims?

Kast who specifically do you feel is diverting attention away from the Electric Badger wagon to the dramonic wagon?

Also, I missed this earlier, but it's pretty lame saying the number of lines in your role PM. If that's not breaking the quoting rule, it's pushing it. If you are town, I don't think you're helping us very much and please be much more careful from here out (assuming you aren't mod killed).

Attempt to incite mod-kill noted.

[ortolan]

Then why even mention this?

To say that I have very good reason to believe dramonic has to be entirely wrong about his speculation about the scenario. This is not a soft-claim, it has nothing to do with my role. It's also not an obvious reason. I would like to wait until at least day one has finished before discussing it further (it should be obvious soon enough). This isn't intended to be cryptic I just don't want to give away a device which could potentially help us catch scum in the early game.

[ortolan]

Sajin why did you unvote dramonic? Who are you going to vote now?

[ortolan]

Sorry. Sajin's jump onto dramonic in order to elicit a claim then jumping off when he claims is scummy. There's no reason not to lynch vanillas after they've claimed.

[ortolan]

Argh. I hate to say it but frustratingly I think dramonic's town. At least until I re-read the game,

Unvote

[ortolan]

Tempting as it is to go through with the policy lynch of dramonic I'm not feeling his recent responses as scum sadly

I think one or both of Kast and Hoops is scum

Hoops, are you scum?

Kast, are you scum?

[ortolan]

Vote: Hoopla

[ortolan]

DDD = town

[ortolan]

I would rather not say why I found DDD town at present.

I think a Synx wagon is in order

Unvote
Vote: Synx

[ortolan]

@Vaya, why are you note voting? With one week til deadline, everyone should vote in my opinion.

At this point I find ortolan the most suspicious. He seems opportunistic, and follows DDD for some strange reason.

Unvote. Vote: ortolan.

What a horrible case. I am acting like town uncertain of whom the scum is hence starting a number of bandwagons. Following a bandwagon is not scummy either.

[ortolan]

'I am acting like town uncertain of whom the scum is', I don't think is something you should/could say from your self.

Why not?

The way you followed DDD and seems to have some unexplained trust in him seems scummy to me.

I just think DDD is town so think his vote can at least be trusted as genuine; plus I'd like to scrutinise some previously unexplored parts of the town. My previous wagons of dramonic and ElectricBadger haven't let me feeling confident they are scum, so I'm continuing wagoning until we tie up some scum. I don't see what's scummy about it, seems like good town play to me.

[ortolan]

Ok we need to lynch someone. Frankly I'm not sure I see Sajin as being that reckless as scum to vote to prompt claim then unvote.

I'm still skeptical of Kast and Hoops. I'm not going to follow Kast's vote on AlmasterGM. Kast is not deviating from the meta I have of him which consists of three scum games.

I haven't really got a scum-read on Gorrad. I'm pretty neutral from memory.

Synx is the only logical choice as I think DDD is town.

[ortolan]

As DDD says, his play is more VIish (no offence) than scummy. He has been quite lucid in a lot of posts. He has thrown suspicions around, first at Gorrad then at me. Both were for bad reasons but they weren't scummy bad reasons.

[ortolan]

Ortolan, what precisely makes you think AlmasterGM is town?

I get mixed vibes from him. 90 is full of setup speculation which is potentially a bit scummy. Although I'm not sure if scum would speculate to such an extent if it makes them look scummy. I find his case on DDD surprising in 139 if he's scum. That doesn't seem like a reason scum would give for voting someone. I am very skeptical of Kast's certainty on AlmasterGM. I am skeptical of Kast himself.

Ortolan did the same thing, yet you ignore that/don't comment on it? Why?

I didn't jump on then off the wagon. I started the wagon. Much later I jumped off it. I don't think you are scummy though.

My most likely scum-team is Kast, Hoops and Synx.

[ortolan]

Sajin's 135 is pro-town, and then the spontaneous vote in 138 more pro-town than not.

I see it as unlikely Sajin is scum.

[ortolan]

That's three votes for Synx.

[ortolan]

Dramonic was strung up to L-1 then claimed vanilla. He was then let go because of a vanilla claim. Can anyone explain to me how that makes him ANY less scummy?

Claiming vanilla is a bad reason to unvote someone in general, I agree. I just think he's town really and the manner of his claim is consistent with that. It's not ideal I agree. But I will make the point that I don't actually think it's scummy in practice to unvote him. Scum aren't going to volunteer to make themselves look scummy in exchange for not lynching a townie. They want to lynch townies instead of themselves. Unless the suggestion is that it was his buddies voting him and we unvoted to let him off the hook.

[ortolan]

Kast: who are you going to vote for? Almaster is clearly not a viable wagon

[ortolan]

mm I hadn't been looking at the rules

Lynches require a majority of votes.

At a deadline, the player who reached the most votes first will be lynched.

These look a bit contradictory but I assume that does mean that one only needs the most votes rather than a clear majority.

Mod: is this correct?

[ortolan]

Not needing a clear majority better serves scum than town. It allows scum to spread themselves out off townie wagons and even avoid responsibility for being on townie wagons. I would very much prefer a majority consensus was reached. I will view it as particularly scummy if someone is lynched having been tied in first place, simply due to having received their most recent vote first.

[ortolan]

Kast: you can't deny that you have power to influence the lynch and by remaining voting someone who's not viable you are not contributing or taking a stand. It looks to me like Sajin has 4 votes and Synx and dramonic both have three. Thus you can (with the addition of another player) decide who of those three you'd prefer to lynch.

[ortolan]

Meh.

Unvote
Vote: Sajin

[ortolan]

I will have to re-read to get some good suspects but I will add that I wasn't necessarily convinced by Synx's roleclaim

[ortolan]

The other thing I took issue with is you misspelling "defuse" as "diffuse" twice the first time you claimed, but also putting it in inverted commas. This implies you were reading from your role PM, but charter wouldn't misspell "defuse".

[ortolan]

Vote: Synx

Certainly until he provides a better explanation for that misspelling.

[ortolan]

hey that seems a bit hasty

Unvote

[ortolan]

Synx, can you explain your spelling error?

[ortolan]

I would like to hear what he has to say, thanks. There's no need to prejudice his response before he gives it.

[ortolan]

Quicklynching someone within three days of day 2 starting without for example a cop guilty, and before they've had a chance to address the reason you're voting them for, is moronic.

[ortolan]

I await his reply

[ortolan]

I would like to see Synx's thoughts about his bandwagon.

[ortolan]

I would prefer a Synx to an Almaster lynch substantially.

Hoops seems to be lurking.

What do people think of Vaya? I actually get pretty scummy vibes after re-reading him.

Mod: please prod Hoopla

[ortolan]

Then why no vote?

Because I might want to lynch someone else like Vaya or even Hoops.

Not thrilled with everything he's done, but he reads town to me so far. What stands out?

Early game was lots of cross-questioning from him and setup speculation without taking much of a stand on anything. He only votes when prompted. Some of the dead (confirmed) townies also suspected him. It's quite possible he's not scum with Synx though.

[ortolan]

fyi the last? scum doesn't need to have connections to the two mafia players. I'm 99% sure the setup is either 3 mafia and one SK or 2 mafia and one SK (leaning towards the latter).

Vaya/Hoops are the two players I'm looking at to fill out those roles.

[ortolan]

I think Hoops is the only really plausible last member of the mafia if there is one. Vaya is very likely to be an SK.

This is the only instance I can find of Hoops talking to WLC

I always feel scum can often post with much more certainty than townies and that townies in general tend to use more 'tentative'. Finding peole scummy because they use 'I think' is scummy of its own in my opinion.

Although I catch myself using tentative language as town, I still disagree. Scum

know

that whoever they're attacking is town, and

know

they're lying. Using tentative language allows for suspicion on a player but also a get-out clause if need be. Most scum players will generally try and leave options open for bussing, or chasing other townies.

Leaving FoS's is another tactic that furthers suspicion without furthering a wagon, but still leaves a placeholder of suspicion to jump back to if needing an excuse to jump on a wagon.

Then if I recall correctly the first time she mentioned Synx was here:

I still like my Sajin vote. Can someone explain the Synx wagon for me?

I'd still rather a Sajin lynch, but I'm not opposed to the Synx wagon on the basis of him being lurky.

Only when Synx came under suspicion did she really start to claim to suspect him. Then she confidently put him on L-1 being "confident" he would flip scum, after using the excuse of being away and thus unable to attend to the game. Seems like rather standard busing to me.

Vaya has been lurking, not engaging with anyone and this is an SK-tell:

I actually kinda agree with dramonic. A role that only blocks scum kills seems odd to me. To clarify, Synx, does your role pm specifically say you only block scum kills, or does it simply prevent kills in general?

I'm not sure if I'd rather lynch Vaya or Hoops first.

[ortolan]

I would like you to make a case against someone Hoops

[ortolan]

town. I'm quite sure the scum is you and/or Vaya

I know I've left myself a bit open to attack this game, but I had suspected Synx since day one. I didn't really like his claim day one either, but I had reason at the time to unvote him. IIRC I was the one to bring up the "misspelled role" point.

You will also notice WLC voted me during day one, and I didn't respond very well to his case.

I also haven't changed my suspicions. The reason I unvoted Synx day two was potentially in favour of you or Vaya. That hasn't changed.

Vote: Hoopla

[ortolan]

Frankly I don't support claiming at this stage

I'd like to know if you have any reasons for wanting a number claim Gorrad, IIRC someone already claimed having a duplicate of an already dead number, I think it was Almaster

[ortolan]

ok then, sounds good to me

[ortolan]

Frankly I'd rather see Hoops/Almaster go before you as you're townier but Gorrad may have a reason to suggest otherwise.

[ortolan]

that's 1 vote for me/EB, two for Vaya/Hoops

[ortolan]

yer that was a typo, sorry. Almaster isn't scummy. I meant you/Synx

[ortolan]

that's three votes for Hoops, Vaya, 1 for me/EB

[ortolan]

Sergeant - 4

[ortolan]

what is your kill method ElectricBadger?

[ortolan]

Unvote

[ortolan]

also; why have neither of you claimed night action targets?

[ortolan]

hmm. If ElectricBadger is an SK he has strange functionality. Presumably to balance him against the mafia and town he has a night-kill and if someone targets him with an ability, they die. To balance this two roles can disable/kill him. Mmm. I'm not sure why his kill method would be "shot" though.

[ortolan]

^^^ I must be going soft. EB's claim and response is scummy, and Gorrad's gambit and general play makes no sense as scum.

Vote: ElectricBadger

[ortolan]

Hoops is scum (also?) (seriously). I am 99.9% sure there is no "vig" in the setup.

Unvote
Vote: Hoopla

[ortolan]

I have a limited vig ability

[ortolan]

one shot

[ortolan]

I used mine night 2 on WLC (yes, I'm aware this claim is scummy)

[ortolan]

also it is not the only ability I have

[ortolan]

cop (which I wasted n1 on Kast) and maybe one or two other things I haven't done yet.

[ortolan]

I vigged WLC because he tried to divert the Synx wagon to Almaster (it is also why, if you'll notice, I in no way suspect Almaster of being mafia as I have pointed out today)

You really shouldn't have claimed vig tbh, you can't support your kill on Kast as a "vig" kill night one based on your posts day one. Notably he is consistently somewhat suspicious of

you

, but you never return the favour. Also notably, in 216 you seem to give a recap of your scum-reads and never mention him.

I have seemingly been unlucky/bad a bit with role actions. I investigated Kast on the same night he died and then vigged WLC night two. I suspect what happened is you and I both happened to target him on the same night. Either your kill method takes precedence over mine, or mine happens to be "shot" also. I would hope no-one would think I would claim scummy roleactions as I have done if I were indeed scum. I also wouldn't have any motivation to counter-claim you as I've done as scum, unless say there were a four man mafia and I'm seeking to end-game, which seems rather implausible to me.

And yes, I am a JOAT.

[ortolan]

Also I attempted a bad softclaim in 441-442 (before you claimed vig). First time I've tried it, and I couldn't think of an effective, subtle way of doing it earlier:

I'm not sure why his kill method would be "shot" though.

^^^ I must be going

soft

. EB's

claim

and response is scummy

That was a softclaim of my ViGGy action n2

[ortolan]

As SK, why would I come out and claim to prevent EB's death, when I could have easily got him mislynched, and got a free-pass into lylo?

I am wondering that myself (really).

[ortolan]

I'm not confident I see a game with 3 scum out of 12 having a town tracker, JOAT, vig, wierd roleblockerish role and possibly whatever DDD was

Mod: was DDD's role Vanilla Town or...?

[ortolan]

and Hoops, can you explain why you targeted Kast N1?

[ortolan]

should we perhaps finish this massclaim we've started then decide who to lynch?

[ortolan]

thanks!

[ortolan]

I agree, Gorrad's stated reasons for voting you don't make sense. You didn't claim bomb, you claimed major.

Unvote

I would currently like the pseudo-mass-claim that has been started to finish. Vaya, please claim your entire role.

[ortolan]

I really think Vaya should claim tbh imho

[ortolan]

Here is my theory:

Hoopla is SK with night-kill immunity. She claimed today knowing scumkills couldn't affect her and in the hope that claiming vig earlier rather than in LyoL would be better.

AlmasterGM is scum. I also think he is setting himself up for an end-game (if we lynch Hoops today and I protect him he has a cover for not dying tonight).

I'm sorry but I believe that charter would put a cop in the game in addition to my role even less than I believe he would put a vig in the game. Two town roles with sane cop abilities in a mini theme game (even if mine is one-shot) is ridiculous. It is also possible Almaster has a rolecop ability, while looking on the wiki the standard entry for a JOAT says killing protecting and investigating, as far as I'm aware the abilities do vary from game to game. I'm not sure he would have just assumed (corectly) I had a protect ability if his survival as a cop depended on it.

it's possible Gorrad's claim is a really elaborate gambit but I see it as unlikely. For EB, he was consistently on Synx's wagon both days 1 and 2. Looking at his comments it is possible to interpret it as busing (he almost seems kind of too sure Synx will flip scum) but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on balance. EB cannot be the "SK"- Hoopla has claimed the "SK" kills. EB is either scum or town, and I can't call him scum based on what I saw. So while Gorrad/EB's role interactions seem odd I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

So, my current plan is to lynch Hoops then Almaster. What do people think of this?

[ortolan]

I still find Synx quite suspect, but also Almaster. We hadn't had any discussion to speak off, and he already places Synx at L-1.

Vote AlmasterGM.

^^ I had forgotten about this. WLC would have to be

really

good at busing for Almaster to be scum. I can't think of a singular theory for this game which makes sense.

[ortolan]

Hey Hoops why do you find me scummy again? Is it just the reasons in 453?

[ortolan]

It's funny how ortolan can't believe there is another vig, or another cop in the game. It's his role that contradicts two others in the game

Yes, it is. To be honest I would think I would be pretty dumb to claim such as scum.

Not to mention claiming a cop result on a corpse, and a vig target on my kill.

I agree, my claimed targets are scummy and unverifiable. If I was scum I would hope I would claim something less scummy, like e.g. vanilla townie maybe. I hope I can rely on my play/meta helping me here. I had a very vested interesting in determining if Kast was scum, as I believe I pointed out day one I've played three previous games with him where he was scum and I was town- in two he effectively outwitted me, in one we both died night one so it was irrelevant. I honestly could not distinguish his play from those previous scum-games of his (which suggests he is a good scum-player). That explains my decision to cop him. I unvoted Synx not because I believed his claim, but because I didn't want him to roleblock me if he was town and prevent my Kast investigation (hence the "meh" comment).

I vigged WLC because he had quite obviously tried to detract from the Synx wagon by voting Almaster (plus if you're suggesting he's scum with me remember he did vote me day one with pretty bad reasoning which I reacted against).

Basically I wait to hear what your plan is Hoops. I'm not second-guessing any element of this setup after the claims we've been privy to.

also has EB full-claimed yet?

[ortolan]

Almaster could be scum and just lie about his investigation result.

[ortolan]

nah I can't roleblock

[ortolan]

Vaya, who do you think the scum is here?

[ortolan]

yes.

[ortolan]

I have a doctor ability left, I thought I implied that already.

Also there is clearly nothing close to an autowin for the town here.

I must say Hoops' contention that "oh he might be a godfather" is complete rubbish. The only reason she has for suspecting me is that my role contradicts hers (and she claimed at a time when there was no evidence of my role to place her in bad light). The fact that she then ignores a claimed cop innocent on me is just further proof she is not looking for scum but is looking for a way to justify her own claimed role.

Vaya, who do you suspect?

[ortolan]

I agree Hoops is the only really viable lynch for today, there's no way of confirming her without lynching her and she's claimed the potential "SK"/"vig" set of kills. Lynching her, correctly or incorrectly, can't lose us the game- we end up either in a win or, more likely, MyoL where we have a mafia player still to find.

Bear in mind at the time she claimed there was no evidence of my role in the game (I acknowledge that the only evidence currently is the fact I've claimed it). She can't have expected there to be a JOAT in the game to undermine her role therefore if she were indeed an SK, she would have underestimated the risk of claiming vig at the time.

I agree with all of Vaya's opinions above.

Anyhow, unless there's anything else, lynch Hoops.

Also, in reply to Hoops above. Sorry, it's really scummy that you're pushing that plan, it accomplishes precisely nothing that we want it to.

What happens is Vaya dies, I die, Gorrad doesn't die, Hoopla survives, Almaster survives as he is scum, we're left with two townies vs SK/mafia in end-game. That's terrible. Instead, we should lynch the likely scum-Hoopla, then end up in myoL with at most one mafia player to find.

[ortolan]

also if Hoops is un-NKable SK, she's left in stalemate where if they lynch her, town gets endgamed, if they lynch anyone else Hoops automatically wins because she can't be night-killed. I guess Hoops just totally "forgot" the plan doesn't work if she is un-NKable SK, which she probably is.

[ortolan]

Yer I'm increasingly sure the scum is just Hoops and Almaster (IIRC I thought Vaya was potential SK but he hasn't done anything explicitly scummy, it was more I thought his play was scummy by omission).

Claiming that plan is in some way pro-town from either of their perspectives is laughable

Vote: Hoopla

[ortolan]

(if you are in fact town, which looks very unlikely), remind me to ask you after the game what you think I would have to gain by counter-claiming your role as scum, when I didn't know whether you were SK or vig

[ortolan]

Happy birthday!

[ortolan]

Actually, the day started with Gorrad and myself voting for you. Then due to mass-claim, EB looked bad- he was accused of being an SK. As an SK (or a vig) you would know he wasn't the SK he was being accused of. You would also know that when he was lynched and flipped town you were very likely going to be a default lynch the day after, thereby losing you the game. Your actions in claiming are therefore perfectly consistent with you being scum. Also, at that point you would also have lead a paper trail of three deaths to contradict your vig claim. Your kill on Kast d1 looks far more like killing someone putting pressure on you rather than killing someone you suspected. Your kill on WLC day two makes perfect sense in the leadup to a vig claim (which you started effectively breadcrumbing at the start of day 3)- both you and I clearly thought him scummy enough to target.

[ortolan]

I don't know why you would assume 3 scum total.

in a 8v3v1 (i.e. 3 man mafia and an SK) setup a Tracker, a JOAT (if you believe my claim) and a PGO (not counting Gorrad's role as its usefulness is neutral) is a decently powered town in and of itself. IF Almaster actually IS A COP (and furthermore if Hoops is actually a vig), a 3-man scum-team is woefully, woefully, horribly, terribly underpowered.

Your plan does not work, because what Hoops will do is just not target herself- if we fail to lynch the mafia player or she fails to cross-kill them (and she will be trying her hardest to not cross-kill them so it's not going to happen); then we end up in a scenario with 2 town, 1 mafia and Hoops-SK alive. If we lynch her, then the mafia night-kills and town gets endgamed. So in fact we will not get to lynch her, unless we do it today. You need to lynch the claimed killing role, it's absolutely textbook play. The risk of her being an SK (and her positively un-vig-like play d1), particularly with the information we have about the setup, is simply too great.

[ortolan]

meh, tbh, yes, I'm not actually sold on Hoops definitely being an SK, but, lynching her is a necessity. At that point we definitely get a lynch to hit scum (and at four players u should definitely nolynch). Not lynching her is wilfully taking control out of the hands of the town.

[ortolan]

tbh I think you're completely barking up the wrong tree Gorrad. For the last mafioso to claim the SK/vig set of kills would be bizarre and nonsensical.

Gorrad: do you think it's possible charter just threw in your (seemingly pretty much useless) role and the interaction with EB to maintain some sort of link with actual stratego? Because everyone thing else about this game suggests the stratego setting and e.g. numbers is completely irrelevant to the game.

[ortolan]

I think that approach is perfectly reasonable. I just disagree about the whole "Hoops might be mafia" thing- I believe she is quite clearly either an SK or a vig.

[ortolan]

mmm, good game

I assumed the whole stratego element was irrelevant the whole game. The scum seemed to have no difficulty making a kill each night and both my investigation and apparently vig went through.

I actually initially thought the way it would work is if you say tried to kill a piece of a higher number than you, it would kill you instead, which seems more in line with how actual stratego works.

I agree it would have been nice to know how exactly the stratego element was implemented. I think it was too hard to guess that and that was very likely going to be integral to the game. Also the whole miner/bomb thing served as a red herring for the town- the whole one scum miner one town miner just for a PGO seemed like a bizarre combination of roles.

Without knowing the restrictions on the roles I think town counter-claiming and lynching each other was inevitable. When there's a claimed PGO, JOAT, vig, cop, tracker and "defuser" all in one setup I would always take at least one of them to be lying; if only because 99% of the time this will be the case.

[ortolan]

sorry Hoops, that was my bad. was just a policy lynch really, which turned out to be a very bad idea this game