Vengeful 5p - Open 158: Game over before 829

[ekiM]

Hoopla

Why SOG over Yos D1?

You didn't direct a single question or to SOG after the theory discussion at the start. Why?

At the start of D2 you said Far_Cry was towniest. Then you said He was your second lynch choice behind Yos. Then he was your first lynch choice. Can you explain the thought process here?

You said you could really see Yos bussing SOG from the outset. What is that based on?

Yos

What changed between post 140 and 146?

You said your bold vote for SOG on page 2 was part of your general Vengeful strategy. I've searched Little Italy for games with Vengeful in the title, and haven't found any with you in. Where have you played it before?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla

Why SOG over Yos D1?

Originally I thought one of Yos/Far-Cry was the godfather, had a town read on you, so technically the role I was surest of (by a psuedo-elimination process) was semioldguy being the goon. Then Yos talked me into voting semioldguy, rather than taking a shot the Godfather. Either way I feel like I was suckered into it.

Hoopla

You didn't direct a single question or to SOG after the theory discussion at the start. Why?

I think I kind of covered it in previous answer - my feelings for semioldguy were based on a process of elimination. At the time, I was more concerned about lynching the Godfather.

At the start of D2 you said Far_Cry was towniest. Then you said He was your second lynch choice behind Yos. Then he was your first lynch choice. Can you explain the thought process here?

I think the post you're referring to is this, which was said prior a serious reread. Here is probably where my most cohesive thoughts for Day 2 was.

You said you could really see Yos bussing SOG from the outset. What is that based on?

This is based on his experience. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think he could coast to the end-game - and it's these sort of posts that makes it looks like thinks he's cleared himself sufficiently;

You still think I'm suspicious, Hoopla? Really?

This was straight after semi's flip and I stated he was in my top 2 for the next lynch. I think he's perfectly capable of bussing semi if he expects town credit like

that

.

---

While i'm at it, I want to respond to something I missed earlier;

...

Damn. I was sure it had to be far cry, especally after his confession.

I've got a hard choice here. I was sure hoopla was town day 1, but I still don't know how likely it is that likely strangercoug would have gone after his scumbuddy, and the way Hoopla's been talking all game about how she's suspicious of me without ever really being able to explain it beyond "paranoia" seems bad, and convinent.

That isn't true - almost all my reads are done with a process of elimination in mind. I try and find the alignment I'm sure of and work from there. I admit paranoia is there, but not enough to skew my brain (thats what alcohol is for). My main reasoning is based on my town reads, which makes you scummy by default. Even if I have nothing on you that is empirically scummy, it doesn't cancel my town reads. In fact, it was you advocating that logic from as early as page two.

---

Also, I ask ekim, not to vote anyone until I'm sober please. I know I've rambled, but I have good points in there.

[ekiM]

Hoopla

Why SOG over Yos D1?

Originally I thought one of Yos/Far-Cry was the godfather, had a town read on you, so technically the role I was surest of (by a psuedo-elimination process) was semioldguy being the goon. Then Yos talked me into voting semioldguy, rather than taking a shot the Godfather. Either way I feel like I was suckered into it.

OK.

Hoopla

You didn't direct a single question or to SOG after the theory discussion at the start. Why?

I think I kind of covered it in previous answer - my feelings for semioldguy were based on a process of elimination. At the time, I was more concerned about lynching the Godfather.

You figured SOG was probably the goon by POE, OK. But nothing towards him at all? Didn't you want to try and determine if your POE read checked out? And I don't see how you do that without talking to him at all.

At the start of D2 you said Far_Cry was towniest. Then you said He was your second lynch choice behind Yos. Then he was your first lynch choice. Can you explain the thought process here?

I think the post you're referring to is this, which was said prior a serious reread. Here is probably where my most cohesive thoughts for Day 2 was.

Yeah, that's the one I meant. I thought you had a town read on Far_Cry based on meta, but that eventually turned around based on... what I said about his long delay D1? Or? His "confession" didn't help.

]You said you could really see Yos bussing SOG from the outset. What is that based on?

This is based on his experience. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think he could coast to the end-game - and it's these sort of posts that makes it looks like thinks he's cleared himself sufficiently;

You still think I'm suspicious, Hoopla? Really?

This was straight after semi's flip and I stated he was in my top 2 for the next lynch. I think he's perfectly capable of bussing semi if he expects town credit like

that

.

Ugh. I don't think I've ever seen a true hard bus, so I'm having trouble here. This game is really small so it's not quite the same as it would be in a regular game. I might have to go and check some other vengeful games and see if this kind of thing ever actually happens.

[Yosarian2]

SOG from the outset. What is that based on?

Yos

What changed between post 140 and 146?

You said your bold vote for SOG on page 2 was part of your general Vengeful strategy. I've searched Little Italy for games with Vengeful in the title, and haven't found any with you in. Where have you played it before?

I actually haven't played vengeful on the forum before. I've played some on scumchat, and the beach bash and beach bam scum-meets, we played dozens and dozens of them face to face each time. I really have come to like the format, and have a lot of ideas of how best to play it.

[Yosarian2]

Hoopla

Why SOG over Yos D1?

Originally I thought one of Yos/Far-Cry was the godfather, had a town read on you, so technically the role I was surest of (by a psuedo-elimination process) was semioldguy being the goon. Then Yos talked me into voting semioldguy, rather than taking a shot the Godfather. Either way I feel like I was suckered into it.

Why would I want to talk you into lynching the goon if I was the godfather? If I was the godfather, why wouldn't I have tried to talk you into lynching Far Cry day 1, since he was your other godfather suspect at the time?

ESPECALLY since Far Cry at the time thought that the scum were you and eikM. In this hypothetical scenario where the scum would be (me and semioldguy), if Far Cry had been lynched on day 1, he would have killed either you or eikM and town would have certainly lost right away.

You really think I would rather bus a goon and then go for a risky "let's see if I can survive for 2 more lynches" thing instead of just trying to win on the spot?

Your main argument here seems to be "Yos convinced me to lynch a scum, and I'm holding that against him." That's, well, honestly it's kind of insane.

This is based on his experience. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think he could coast to the end-game - and it's these sort of posts that makes it looks like thinks he's cleared himself sufficiently;

You still think I'm suspicious, Hoopla? Really?

This was straight after semi's flip and I stated he was in my top 2 for the next lynch. I think he's perfectly capable of bussing semi if he expects town credit like

that

.

Well, of course when I'm town and nail scum like that, I expect town credit.

None of this stuff is arguments for my actions being more likely scum then town, Hoopla.

[ekiM]

@mod: Could you prod Hoopla, please? It has been three days.

I actually haven't played vengeful on the forum before. I've played some on scumchat, and the beach bash and beach bam scum-meets, we played dozens and dozens of them face to face each time. I really have come to like the format, and have a lot of ideas of how best to play it.

Heh, alright. I've never actually played Mafia in the flesh. Do you think it's a viable/good strategy in vengeful for the Godfather to bus his goon from the first?

I look at the Vengeful games in this forum and I saw one game where JDodge did that and it went quite well for him, out of about a dozen games. It does give some townie credit, but I guess the thing to consider is, wouldn't it be easier to jump off the goon at some point to achieve a townie lynch?

[Yosarian2]

What changed between post 140 and 146?

Nothing, really. 140 was just a quick post I made when I saw the game was open. After that, I re-thought and re-read the game, now knowing that SoG was the goon instead of the godfather, and came to a different conclusion.

Heh, alright. I've never actually played Mafia in the flesh. Do you think it's a viable/good strategy in vengeful for the Godfather to bus his goon from the first?

(shrug) It can be a viable strategy, sure, especally if you have a good read on the pro-town people in the game and can predict how they're going to respond.

However, it only works if it's a strategy that would convince the townies that you're town (since you would then have to survive two more lynches to win), and long before the end of day 1, it was pretty clear that even if SOG did flip scum that Hoopla would still suspect me. In the specific scenario of this game, with Hoopla suggesting I was likely to be SOG's godfather, I wouldn't have done it unless I thought I could lynch Hoopla before endgame.

[Hoopla]

Well, of course when I'm town and nail scum like that, I expect town credit.

None of this stuff is arguments for my actions being more likely scum then town, Hoopla.

I guess that's the paradox in this game - doing something that would be inherantly bad for your faction is good for you in the long run.

I'm not suggesting your actions alone are more likely to be done by scum than town. The core of my argument stems from my town read on ekiM, which makes you scummy by default - I can see your play fitting the Godfather role far easier than I can of ekiM. It's as simple as that. It really is the easiest way to crack the game, and I urge ekiM to reread the game like this if hasn't already done so.

If you have any specific questions you want to ask me, please let me know, as I'm near certain you are scum and is where I will probably vote.

[Yosarian2]

Well, of course when I'm town and nail scum like that, I expect town credit.

None of this stuff is arguments for my actions being more likely scum then town, Hoopla.

I guess that's the paradox in this game - doing something that would be inherantly bad for your faction is good for you in the long run.

Except that's not at all true, especially in this kind of situation. If I was scum, there's no way my play could be considered "good for me in the long run" by any stretch of the imagination. Frankly, if I was scum I'm pretty sure I would have been able to win the game for the scum on day 1, and I certainly would have tried..

If you have any specific questions you want to ask me, please let me know, as I'm near certain you are scum and is where I will probably vote.

Assume for one moment I am town (which I am.) Is there any reason you can think of why I shouldn't vote you over eikM?

[Hoopla]

Assume for one moment I am town (which I am.) Is there any reason you can think of why I shouldn't vote you over eikM?

Because you would be losing the game - but this is a weird hypothetical where I have to defend myself against my town read. I

know

I am town, so this counts more, but I doubt I will be able to change your mind. I feel I've said enough in my defense, and that my reads are good as I can get them.

Although, I get the feeling this game is going to boil down to you and I voting each other, and ekiM making the decision.

[ekiM]

Heh, alright. I've never actually played Mafia in the flesh. Do you think it's a viable/good strategy in vengeful for the Godfather to bus his goon from the first?

(shrug) It can be a viable strategy, sure, especally if you have a good read on the pro-town people in the game and can predict how they're going to respond.

OK.

However, it only works if it's a strategy that would convince the townies that you're town (since you would then have to survive two more lynches to win), and long before the end of day 1, it was pretty clear that even if SOG did flip scum that Hoopla would still suspect me. In the specific scenario of this game, with Hoopla suggesting I was likely to be SOG's godfather, I wouldn't have done it unless I thought I could lynch Hoopla before endgame.

Hmm. Then why did you say...

You still think I'm suspicious, Hoopla? Really?

... at the start of D2?

I'm not suggesting your actions alone are more likely to be done by scum than town. The core of my argument stems from my town read on ekiM, which makes you scummy by default - I can see your play fitting the Godfather role far easier than I can of ekiM. It's as simple as that. It really is the easiest way to crack the game, and I urge ekiM to reread the game like this if hasn't already done so.

Why is Yosarian2's D1 play more fitting to Godfather than yours? Bussing from page 2 seems prima facie less likely than deciding to bus later on. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.

[Yosarian2]

However, it only works if it's a strategy that would convince the townies that you're town (since you would then have to survive two more lynches to win), and long before the end of day 1, it was pretty clear that even if SOG did flip scum that Hoopla would still suspect me. In the specific scenario of this game, with Hoopla suggesting I was likely to be SOG's godfather, I wouldn't have done it unless I thought I could lynch Hoopla before endgame.

Hmm. Then why did you say...

You still think I'm suspicious, Hoopla? Really?

... at the start of D2?

Eh. I was trying to get a read on Hoopla at the time; something about her reaction seemed odd to me, so I was trying to get a reaction out of her.

Still, day 1 she made pretty clear that she thought SoG was a goon and that she thought I was likely to be his godfather.

[Yosarian2]

Assume for one moment I am town (which I am.) Is there any reason you can think of why I shouldn't vote you over eikM?

Because you would be losing the game - but this is a weird hypothetical where I have to defend myself against my town read. I

know

I am town, so this counts more, but I doubt I will be able to change your mind. I feel I've said enough in my defense, and that my reads are good as I can get them.

It's not a weird hypothetical, because I am town. If you are town, and you want to not lose the game, you need to convince me to not vote you.

I really am kind of torn here. I do think SoG 's vote on eikM makes eikM look a lot better, now that we know SoG was the goon, but I also don't know if you would have bussed SoG day 1 if you were scum. I'm slightly leaning towards voting you at the moment, but I'm going to be really, really pissed at myself if it turns out that I was right on day 1 that SoG and eikM were both scum and I ended up not trusting my day 1 gut and losing the game because of it.

Although, I get the feeling this game is going to boil down to you and I voting each other, and ekiM making the decision.

That's fine, if eikM is town.

[Hoopla]

I feel like even if ekiM is scum, I won't be able to talk myself into it. Both of you had unusual beginnings to game, in the way semi interacted with ekiM, and your bussing from the outset. To me it just feels like you are more capable of bussing, than the clever distancing between ekiM and semi.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I will not have access to a computer until Monday. Until then, I cannot prod, do votecounts, or declare a lynch; however, since it's only 3 days I do not think I need to find a temprary mod

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I am back to find absolutely no posts. I am very disappointed in activity. No one said they would be V/LA over the weekend, even though the rules state you must write so in thread. I will give you until Tuesday before mass-prodding.

[Hoopla]

Appologies B&B, expect more from me soon.

[Yosarian2]

ekiM: If you were to vote right now, who would you vote for?

[Hoopla]

Guys, this game is going nowhere, can we just vote now? I seriously doubt we're going to glean any more information from today.

[Yosarian2]

Guys, this game is going nowhere, can we just vote now? I seriously doubt we're going to glean any more information from today.

I would actually prefer for eikM to vote first. I think that will give a lot of information, actually.

[ekiM]

Sorry for not posting all weekend; something happened.

Bussing from the start is still less likely than bussing late on. I haven't seen anything to change that fundamental assessment, and we've exhausted all avenues of conversation.

Vote: Hoopla

[Hoopla]

Damn, well I'm town. Hopefully Yos isn't the Godfather.

[Yosarian2]

Not hammering.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I've got a hard choice to make.

Hoopla, I asked you this before; can you think of a good reason why I should trust you over eikM?

[Hoopla]

Ok, I've got a hard choice to make.

Hoopla, I asked you this before; can you think of a good reason why I should trust you over eikM?

Wow, I'm shocked. Sorry for doubting you Yos.

Honestly, even though it will lose the game for us, not really. I've been wrong most of the game, except for semioldguy. Semi's interactions with ekiM are very compelling, so credit to him for disguising his Godfather so well. The one point against ekiM is not bussing his goon, but obviously my logic on this issue was rubbish.

All I can say to defend myself is that I have been geuinely bamboozled most of the game, so I hope you can see honesty in that.

I'll vote now, so you can make your decision when you're ready.

Vote: ekiM