Newbie 853 (Endgame, Mafia win!!)

[cruelty]

/confirm

[cruelty]

vote: lolimade

For having an anime avatar.

[cruelty]

For me.


scummy > lurkers.

I'll always vote for someone I think is scummy over someone who isn't posting.


I also don't really like discussion of lurkers, it's a good way for scum to point the finger at people who can't/won't defend themselves

[cruelty]

unvote

Man I hate early game arguments. Every game I play there seems to be one and it's never productive.

If you had told me you just stretched for a reason to randomly vote DTMaster and came up with something silly, I would be more inclined to believe it. It just seems like something you made up. An attempt to cover tracks which you didn't even leave.

This strikes me as a very strange thing to say. You're literally and consciously creating a point against VW here.

Firstly my vote against vendel is obviously not serious, the very idea that I would have enough information after such a little bit of time to make a serious accusation is ridiculous. I was trying to pressure him for information and I think in doing so more information is now available to the town.

You say I'm grasping at straws when all I was doing was pointing out his bad logic, "grasping at straws" implies I was trying to build a serious case against him which is an incorrect assumption.

Don't really like this. I'm not sure what, exactly, I'll try to articulate my uneasiness regarding this post later, it's not clicking right now.

[cruelty]

Do you know how to play the game?

[cruelty]

This game stagnated extremely quickly.

unvote
vote: geekalicious

[cruelty]

This game stagnated extremely quickly.



unvote
vote: geekalicious

...why?

Trying to stimulate the game.


@Concerned: going out now, will answer you when I get home.

[cruelty]

t;]Firstly my vote against vendel is obviously not serious, the very idea that I would have enough information after such a little bit of time to make a serious accusation is ridiculous. I was trying to pressure him for information and I think in doing so more information is now available to the town.

You say I'm grasping at straws when all I was doing was pointing out his bad logic, "grasping at straws" implies I was trying to build a serious case against him which is an incorrect assumption.

Don't really like this. I'm not sure what, exactly, I'll try to articulate my uneasiness regarding this post later, it's not clicking right now.

/UNVOTE VENDELWALKER

/VOTE CRUELTY

I'm still waiting to here from you as to why my post made you uneasy .

Ok.

I think it just seemed like a big over-reaction, I think the way you phrased your response was very defensive, but (very) aggressively defensive.

That said, on a re-read I can see that maybe I was attributing to you things that weren't actually present, so I don't know how relevant this point really is.

Your vote bothers me, cruelty, because you don't have any real reasoning, and we're definitely past the random voting phase.

Yeah yeah, not really interested. The game stagnated, I threw out a random vote and we've had a few posts since, seems I achieved what I wanted to achieve. Thus,

unvote

.



@brothernature, my vote was to try to spark the game back to life (and thus far it's worked)... yours just seems opportunistic. I don't understand why a) you'd make the vote (I thought it was relatively clear that mine was just random; there's no need for two random votes) and b) why you wouldn't remove it. Leaving someone at L2 is just stupid, it's like you're endorsing a random bandwagon. Can't see town doing that.

vote: brothernature

- Don't like the second (unnecessary) random vote.
- Don't like the reasoning behind it.
- Don't like that it's still there.

[cruelty]

One thing I note is this:

DTMaster

, you were on my side there pretty solidly. A little too much, perhaps. And now in post 67 you put a Finger of Suspicion (why don't we write out these things to make it easier for those who haven't read every page in the wiki?) on Loli. Loli was an easy target there, for his general behavior.

But his L-2 against geekalicious actually had no chance of succeeding, which he obviously must have known.

And you knew that too.

That's interesting.

There's two things I can infer from this.

Firstly, the implication I'm getting from the italicized part is that it's ok to do scummy things as long as they're unlikely to succeed. Sort of a weird position to take.

Secondly, you're defending Loli/brothernature (and pressing the attack on someone else). I tend to think that someone defending another player (before said other player has had a chance to mount their own defence) is more likely to be acting out of self interest, rather than a vested interest in protecting another player. The self interest, obviously, would be protecting a scumbuddy.

[cruelty]

@brothernature, my vote was to try to spark the game back to life (and thus far it's worked)... yours just seems opportunistic. I don't understand why a) you'd make the vote (I thought it was relatively clear that mine was just random; there's no need for two random votes) and b) why you wouldn't remove it. Leaving someone at L2 is just stupid, it's like you're endorsing a random bandwagon. Can't see town doing that.

To this, I answer with a quote of myself.

If your stupid enough to believe that two people will suddenly pile onto my wagon with no explantion given you should be lynched right now. If anyone did that right now, we'd know they are scum. Scum aren't stupid. At least I hope they aren't in this game. Otherwise it won't be any fun.

At the moment, I was was talking about my self vote, but it still applies.

Right, so I'm stupid for questioning your vote.


It doesn't matter whether scum are stupid or not, that's irrelevant as far as your vote is concerned.

Your

vote was unnecessary, achieved absolutely nothing and probably most importantly

is still there

, despite you saying it wasn't predicated on any serious suspicion.





I'm happy with my vote on you.

[cruelty]

Wow, could my post 73

be

any more ignored?

I responded to you at the top of this page.

[cruelty]

Wow, could my post 73

be

any more ignored?

I responded to you at the top of this page.

The part you responded to was not my main point in that post, though.

And as such you're not going to respond?

[cruelty]

Ugh, brothernature. That was horrible, horrible play.

When I repeatedly questioned DTMaster's weak grounds for lynching Loli, cruelty posted a suspicion that I could be protecting Loli because he was a scum buddy. According to cruelty, defending someone else before he has defended himself is scummy. (Which was exactly what he himself did when defending DTMaster!)

Please quote my defence of DTM.

[cruelty]

While I'm doing that I'd like Concerned to explain why he's voting for DTMaster without giving any reasons

In time.

How about now?

Remember, brothernature got lynched for a foolish, poorly explained vote (and terrible play).

[cruelty]

Blah, I can't even explain the depths of my annoyance with brothernature...

Don't worry, I'm none to fond of you either. Also, Bah!

stop posting in here

[cruelty]

@everyone, So here's what I see. We know that we're in a game with no more town power roles, a roleblocker and a goon. The obvious consequence (which I'll say anyhow as it's a newbie game) is that if anyone tries to claim a power role from here on out they're lying and we lynch them. T

Sorry I'm not following here; the fact that we had a cop means there was two possible setups, one with the cop/doc and mafia roleblocker, and one with the cop vs two goons. I'm either misunderstanding what you said or you're wrong. Not trying to read anything into it, but we should all be clear on this.



@VW, going over your post again.

I regret nothing. He was firing off scumtells like candy from a Pez dispenser. (Acting emotional, claiming to be cop without finding scum first, claiming it in such a way that you couldn't decide if he was serious or just bullshitting us, challenging everyone - and me directly - to claim cop which would make a person a night-kill target, voting on himself when bandwagoned to gain sympathy. He just wasn't playing pro-town eventually, he was being chaotic.) However, that was toward the end, and it doesn't justify the hunt that was started against him.

Now that it has been proven that he was town, I believe it has given us an opportunity for a town win. I am looking at the two persons who started and first bandwagoned this hunt, and those two were cruelty and DTMaster. I believe that we have one or two Mafia there.

Look at me all you like. My vote was valid, and you were the one that hammered.


I find it very, very interesting that you can justify your vote by him being anti-town towards the end of the day (which is an accurate summation, for the record), but my vote is suspicious because it started the wagon. Did you actually read what brothernature was saying around the time I made my vote, or are you just throwing wild speculation out there in the hope that it'll stick?



@Concerned that's the third vote you've made without sufficient reasoning.

/UNVOTE VENDELWALKER

/VOTE CRUELTY

I'm still waiting to here from you as to why my post made you uneasy Wink.

Vote : brothernature

Everyone's too afraid to be the third vote on the wagon. When everyone knows the scumtells they lose their meaning.

For now
VOTE : DTMaster

Time to talk.

I want you to explain why you voted DTMaster.

[cruelty]

Geekalicious was our doctor. We've now lost both the doctor and the cop. It's interesting that you hadn't noticed that. If it's genuine (and my gut says it probably is) then I suspect I think it makes you look slightly good. I'll think about that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Oh, haha. I'm a dumbass. Didn't read the mod post closely.

[cruelty]

I kept noting many times that the case against brothernature was weak, which was obvious.

No you didn't.

@Cruelty

You hold it against me that I hammered? I was thinking to myself, whoever is scum will probably bring up hammering to cast doubt on me, it is a classic. At the surface it seems like a good standard suspicion: whoever hammers is suspect the next day, and so on. That seems to be an often used argument, when I look at other games here, so it would seem valid to use. However, there was no other thing to do than to see if brothernature was scum or not in the end, to get that whole hunt out of the way. Which is obvious.

That's not what I said.

My vote was valid - others agree. Being first on a wagon isn't scummy, especially when I only posted once more that day against brothernature; I wasn't aggressively pushing a wagon, I made a justified vote and then brothernature played like a fool and got himself lynched.

Hammering a claimed cop on day one with

two weeks to deadline

is absolutely questionable.

I would bring up the detail that I was the ONLY one to oppose lynching brothernature, for days.

That's a lie. Reading through your posts in iso, you don't ONCE say anything to the effect that the brothernature wagon was a bad one. The only thing remotely close to a post declaring your claimed anti-wagon sentiments was a bit of musing on WIFOM.

Everyone else was either on his case or kept silent and let the hunt proceed. I could have jumped on that bandwagon at any time and no one would have thought it anything but natural; in fact, you, Cruelty, suggested that I was suspect for NOT doing so.

Quote me. I never said anything of the sort.


You still haven't answered my question from my previous post. Here:

When I repeatedly questioned DTMaster's weak grounds for lynching Loli, cruelty posted a suspicion that I could be protecting Loli because he was a scum buddy. According to cruelty, defending someone else before he has defended himself is scummy. (Which was exactly what he himself did when defending DTMaster!)

Please quote my defence of DTM.

This is where I vote you. You:

-

Lied

when you claimed to be opposing a brothernature lynch: you never said it was a bad lynch.
- Are trying to push through a suspicion over my initial brothernature vote being scummy when it obviously wasn't, and when I posted only once more against brothernature (ie: I didn't push the wagon at all).
-

Lied

when you said I called you suspicious for not voting brothernature.
- Hammered a claimed cop on day 1 with

two weeks

left in the day.

Vote: VendelWalker

[cruelty]

man this died

[cruelty]

I'll answer that once VW responds to me. I want him to address my post directly, without any other speculation to drift off topic with.

Mostly I'd like people to step up the activity.

[cruelty]

@VW, why didn't you vote for me?

I'll go through your posts (they're in the same order as they were in yours).

Post 1:

viewtopic.php?p=1910853#1910853

On a re-read, this post is less a defence of Loli and more an excuse to attack DTM. That's fine, and I retract my pre-emptive defence accusation on you, but this says nothing about Loli being a bad lynch. In fact;

Loli was an easy target there, for his general behavior

You note his behaviour is questionable. Not really trying to stop a lynch.

Post 2:

viewtopic.php?p=1912341#1912341

This is your poem. Again, no defence of Loli, just accusing Lizzy of following DTM.

Post 3:

viewtopic.php?p=1914142#1914142

Your response is you don't think Loli's vote was scummy, but then you say this:

So it is not so much defending Loli as suspecting DTMaster.

This post doesn't actually constitute any opposition to the brothernature wagon, just a desire to push the DTM one.

Post 4:

viewtopic.php?p=1915188#1915188

Bunch of speculation regarding WIFOM. Again, you don't say you're against the brothernature lynch.

Post 5:

viewtopic.php?p=1915259#1915259

Saying you'd prefer to lynch someone else isn't something scum would do?
This entire post again is not actually you opposing a brothernature lynch, it's you musing that you'd rather lynch a lurker (and again, babbling on about WIFOM).


You

never

said that you were opposed to a brothernature lynch. You agreed early on that his actions were questionable, and as the wagon built up steam you waffled on about WIFOM and then said you wanted to lynch a lurker instead. That does not constitute the self-portrait of vehement disagreement that you're trying to paint.

[cruelty]

Continuing:

[quote="VW"
Everyone else was either on his case or kept silent and let the hunt proceed. I could have jumped on that bandwagon at any time and no one would have thought it anything but natural; in fact, you, Cruelty, suggested that I was suspect for NOT doing so.

Quote me. I never said anything of the sort.

This is the second time on day 2 that you deny this. But here is your post from day one for all to see:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93#1910893[/quote]

Secondly, you're defending Loli/brothernature (and pressing the attack on someone else). I tend to think that someone defending another player (before said other player has had a chance to mount their own defence) is more likely to be acting out of self interest, rather than a vested interest in protecting another player. The self interest, obviously, would be protecting a scumbuddy.

In this post from day 1, you accuse me of protecting a scumbuddy when I defend brothernature.

Yet above here you say, "Quote me. I never said anything of the sort." False.

Not

once

in this post do I suggest you're suspicious for not being on the brothernature wagon. You've quoted me saying that I'm a little curious about your defence of Loli (defending him before he defended himself); that's not anything like being suspicious that you're not on his wagon.


Then, further in your (recent) post, you quote the same post when you accuse me of pre-emptively defending DTM. Again, this simply isn't true. My post has nothing to do with DTM, I could care less about your suspicions of him - there's no defence there, the post is solely directed at you.


Then you're excusing hammering a claimed cop. Fine, probably the weakest of my points given that I started the wagon and absolutely agreed with the hammer, but there were two weeks left in the day. Two weeks, that's a longass time for new information to come to light. I wouldn't vote you solely based on the hammer, but it's just a cog in a bigger machine.

[cruelty]

Sorry for the 3 posts, I find big posts harder to read, so I'm breaking it down into 3.

To recap: cruelty makes the most astonishing (and stupid) claim so far in this thread, saying I never opposed the accusations against Brothernature, and now trying to get me lynched for hammering Brothernature when he went chaotic, even though the reasons for that are pretty obvious. I have shown several posts where I questioned the hunt against Brothernature - cruelty must

surely

be aware of this, since he even said on day one that I was looking suspicious for defending Brother.

a) Not trying to get you lynched for hammering brothernature. Way to misrepresent my case.
b) Your posts 'questioning the lynch' aren't anything of the sort.
c) I said that I find pre-emptive defences questionable. I've also (admittedly recently) retracted that, I think that your post was more an attack on DTM than a defence of brothernature.

cruelty has now claimed TWICE that he never said I was suspect for defending Brothernature and raising a suspicion against DTMaster over this matter - but he either has a very bad memory or he is lying, because that is exactly what he did on day one.

Addressed in the previous post, and proven to be false.

Guys, it is pretty obvious cruelty is lying through his teeth here. He got what he wanted after the hunt (which he was in on from the beginning) against Concerned fizzled - he got a hunt going against Brothernature, who was driven to stop caring for the game and self-destructing. Now cruelty wants to go after me. I sure hope this town won't make the same mistake again.

Haha. I never voted for Concerned, not sure what that's about. I never pushed the brothernature wagon (Only made two posts against him, neither of which were in the last 2 days leading up to the lynched) and I can hardly be held accountable for brothernature's tragic cry-fest.



Anyway @everyone else, make up your own minds.

[cruelty]

@cruelty, now that Vendelwalker has responded to you and you've had an exchange are you ready to say whether there's anyone else you think is scum?

Yeah, sorry, forgot about this.

I'm not going to even attempt to build a case right now (too hungover), but I have a couple issues with Concerned (strange voting mainly) which I don't feel are 100% resolved. I don't really want to get into a battle on two fronts, and we have a lot of time for me to investigate this a little later, so I'm leaving it for now.

[cruelty]

That's not to say that both DTMaster and Cruelty are out of my sights. Cruelty, especially, seems to be in the same position as Concerned on the other side of the fence. At the moment, though, I'm more inclined to explore suspicions against Concerned as I feel they're more valid.

I'm not really sure what you're implying here. Can you be clearer so I can defend myself if necessary?

[cruelty]

I opposed the bandwagon that you and cruelty started, over and over. Nice try denying that.

No you didn't, you just tried (and failed) to push a DTM one.

he [cruelty] turned around with an OMGUS as soon as I suspected him

Haha.

I pushed my case on you first

; the only thing you said prior to that was outrage that I brought up your hammering vote. OMGUS? No.


I think you're scrambling now, your defence is getting weaker and weaker.


@Zorblag, re: post 212 - I think there's a potential for an IC to control the game because of their status; little concerned that this is what you're doing. I actually agree with what you're saying, but I just feel that coaching that blatant a) encourages the other player to do your bidding and b) gives you a rosy-cheeked town mayor vibe (that is, non-threatening but influential town).

I'm not saying that this is what you're doing, but I just want you to know that I'm going to pay close attention to your instructive posts, because I believe the potential to cause harm is amplified with an IC.

[cruelty]

All that I'll ask is that everyone judges me by my actions and whether those are helping the town rather than some fear of my IC status being dangerous. By all means, watch me closely. If I'm doing things that hurt the town then you should be voting for me. But like I said to Concerned earlier, don't just be looking at me, You should be doing that for everyone in the game. Having more experience means that I'm probably going to be able to help my team out no matter which that is but that doesn't mean that I'm any more likely than normal to be scum

Eh.

My post (well, a portion of it) was addressed to you, but was really a warning to the rest of town not to assume you're town. Being an IC implies competence, and gives your posts a credibility that the rest of us don't have. I wouldn't want Concerned (or anyone) to blindly do whatever you suggest, purely because you're an IC.

That said, I'm not "just looking at [you]", it just occurs to me that you have a position of perceived (but not actually real) power. I think an IC in a scum role can abuse that (which is fine, it's the game), so @everyone, be careful.

[cruelty]

Ezekial you really have to do better than that.


If you read something you didn't like, quote it (click the quote button on the top right of the specific post) and at least try to tell us what you didn't like about it.

[cruelty]

Why do you think that is?

[cruelty]

So following that line of thought, what do you think he's trying to achieve if he's waiting to see what others post?

[cruelty]

Waiting on Vendelwalker to return, I think he's got some questions to answer/posts to respond too. He's got a post of mine to look at and Ezekial is on the case as well now.



Lizzy I don't like that (re: me). You're going to make vague implications about me and then back off when questioned? It's not really good enough.

Regarding your "overall read" of Concerned and "gut feeling" re: VW, I feel like you're just making enough of a contribution to appear pro-town and active. I think that you could almost be classified as active lurking. Your cases are very vague and I don't think really contribute to anything at all. I'll go through your iso when I get home from work tomorrow, see if I actually have a case to make or if I'm just reading more into your last couple of posts than I should.

[cruelty]

Ugh this is so bad.

VW gets a little heat turned on him so he goes dark. Interesting that he was very active throughout day one, though.


For the record I'm checking this thread at least twice a day, I just don't really have much to say given the lack of content.

[cruelty]

@Cruelty, You seem to feel VW DID NOT defend BrotherNature, if VW was defending Brother how do you feel this makes him more pro-villa?

I'll try to re-articulate my feelings on what VW was doing.

I don't think he was attacking the brothernature wagon like he claimed he was. That's different to defending him (which he arguably did do). If you look through his iso, there's no real evidence to suggest that VW was vehemently against the brothernature wagon like he claimed he was. I'd be a lot more inclined to believe VW if at some point he'd said something along the lines of "whoa guys this brothernature wagon is obviously wrong, and this is why..." - that never happened. He claims it did, he claims to have been all over this mislynch but he quite simply wasn't.


And I don't believe Zorblag's point highlights the futlity of the argument. If anything, it strengthens it - there ARE quotes you could point to where VW was arguably defending brothernature, BUT without attacking the wagon, that defence is nothing more than window dressing.


Summary.

1: VW (may have) defended brothernature (arguable but I'll go along with him).
2: VW didn't attack the wagon at ANY point (claims he did).


Point 2 is inconsistent with point 1. If he was convinced brothernature was town (point 1) then attacking his wagon (point 2) is a logical step.



VWscm vs VWtown.


VWscum vaguely defends brothernature, KNOWING he's town (bc VW is scum obviously) but lets the wagon gain steam, then even gets to cast the hammering vote.

VWtown vaguely defends brothernature, suspecting that he's town (but not knowing). He sees the wagon gaining steam, then does nothing, then does an about-face and hammers.

Which is more plausible?

[cruelty]

@Cruelty, I don't think that last comparison is quite fair. Vendelwalker wasn't doing a turn around and hammer for no reason at all on brothernature. He hammered after brothernature had made his terrible self vote and essentially took himself out of serious contention for not getting lynched for the day. Scum would certainly have dropped that hammer but I have no reason to think that town wouldn't.

Well yeah I could have worded it better. I meant that his entire outlook had changed from when I initially attacked brothernature. It was a process, yes, not as abrupt as I may have implied.

And I don't necessarily find the hammer scummy - if that's all it was, I wouldn't have an issue. It's his explanation of what happened... I'm not going to recap because I've been over and over it.

[cruelty]

Mod: VLA the next 4 days

.

Should be back before the lynch, I don't think I have any outstanding questions to answer and I'm happy with my vote. Will get caught up when I get back.

[cruelty]

[Limited access, short and dirty]

2. Cruelty - for the sole fact that he keeps on hitting at VW and also is ignoring the fact that Concerned didn't even so much as unvote on BN

2 points.

1: What exactly is wrong with my case on VW? Pressing a case I think is correct is hardly a scumtell.
2: Not sure how that's relevant to VW. I didn't unvote on BN either. Why didn't you bring that up? Or DTM? - actually, who DID unvote? I don't have time to go back through, but offhand I don't recall anyone unvoting.


I don't really understand your suspicion. I might be a bit tunnelled but the game has been very stagnant so I think it's understandable. I don't think I've been acting inherently scummy, and I don't think that you point re: Concerned is in anyway relevant (Especially when you consider my target is the guy who hammered the claimed cop with two weeks left in the day).

[cruelty]

Also Lizzy in a game like this I think that playing passively is hugely anti-town. The game has been stagnant as I said, so you've been able to fly under the radar and excuse it as your playstyle - I don't really like that.

[cruelty]

Yep knew it was you, was my mistake.


Thanks for the ammo? Did you read the thread? I already acknowledged that my vote was there (in fact I started the wagon), but the wagon built up a head of steam and VW was lynched before I could do anything about it.

Also, I'm more scummy because I'm calm? That's laughable. Scum would surely be more "emotional" - especially when trying to convince someone of their innocence.

I note that you say this earlier:

Cruelty seems to be playing a proactive game, but I'm not sure. He's tunneling on VW a bit, but that's to be expected.

then

Cruelty - for the sole fact that he keeps on hitting at VW

then

if anything, tunneling is the LAST thing you should be doing

Which is the inconsistency I was hoping for. Thanks.

[cruelty]

Yeah sorry, I have very limited access and am typing very quickly. You get the gist of what I'm saying.

[cruelty]

If you'd had serious concerns about tunnelling you'd have brought them up in your initial post. Curiouser and curiouser.

[cruelty]

Honestly, I have bigger fish to fry then one lone fool tunneling too hard on someone.

...and then it got personal.

The reason I say it's "expected" of you to tunnel is because you're only seeing one side of things - VW hammered - and you seem to be missing all other points.

Actually if you'd read my posts closely you'd notice that the hammer is actually the thing I find least scummy about him. I'm pretty sure I specifically said somewhere earlier that if it was -just- the hammer, then there wouldn't really be an issue.

Emotion =/= Scumtell
Emotion CAN = Towntell at times.

Well I don't buy that. VW thought he was winning; I don't think he felt particularly pressured (until his VERY last post) - he was practically rubbing his hands together at what he thought appeared to be a slam dunk case against me:

cruelty's lies about me are the most obvious I have seen. I am glad my push early in day two gave a result: cruelty is not a very smooth scum

cruelty makes the most astonishing (and stupid) claim so far in this thread

Anyone can see that I was against lynching brothernature the whole time, nothing is more obvious. The only ones who could deny this are scum

He's basically gloating, especially in the first two. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is a townie under pressure and flailing around trying to protest his innocence?

Those quotes right there are from a guy who thinks he's right. He thinks he's going to get me lynched, he thinks he has an ironclad case and he's happy about it. This is your towntell, this is the reason you don't find him scummy?

[cruelty]

AGar you're aware that everything I quoted, you also quoted right?


Look, you can see VW get frustrated/flustered, I won't disagree with that. You can also see (as I quoted) that he was happy with his case on me, that he thought he was going to be able to push through my lynch. Maybe I'm tunneled (don't think so at this point), but his emotion to me (if we're going to use abstract, subjective, interpretative concepts as tells) reads as much more scummy than town.

[cruelty]

@Cruelty, I can't tell if you're trying to get AGar to vote for XScorpion or if you think he's scum at this point. The exchange has a bit of a reactionary feel. I think that AGar did bring up tunneling as an issue with his first post (well, second if you count his introdcution) which was why he had you in the neutral category rather than the pro-town category which his other comment on you (pro-active play) would have warranted.

Neither, was pushing for a reaction so I could get a read. Had very, very little to go on with Ezekial.

[cruelty]

Hmm. I'm wondering if this isn't a passive bus we're seeing..

[cruelty]

Prob won't be around for deadline. Happy with my vote, but I'm not hugely opposed to an Agar lynch - I agree with XS that in lylo Agar is a dangerous liability given we have zero info on him.

This isn't a case of finding AGar scummy (although I don't really agree with his contributions thus far), any support I have for his lynch is purely from an information standpoint. That is, we have none.

[cruelty]

Hmm. Glad Lizzy died to be honest, her playstyle made me uneasy.

This is my line of thinking right now.

Zorblag - alignment currently irrelevant. I don't see a scumslip coming from him at this point so I'm going to just assume he's town for now and focus on the rest of you.

AGar - need more info. I intend to look very hard at everything he says, and I would encourage everyone to question him thoroughly so we can build up a good read on him. I'd also note that at this point opposing the VW lynch is irrelevant with regards to town points: scum knew he was town ergo opposing the lynch is a good play (for one scum, anyway).

Concerned and DTM I'll come back to you, have to cut this short for now.

[cruelty]

Hmm interesting point re: Zorblag, DTM.


Agar we need some content from you. As to your question why you weren't lynched, I didn't (don't) want you in lylo, but VW for me ticked all the scum boxes. Oh well, just gotta get it right today.

I want to know who you think is the single scummiest person in the game, I don't want a list, just your top suspect, and a decent case on why they're scummy.

Something else that definitely concerns me is that you opposed the lynch - you at least thought [knew?] VW was town and held those beliefs strongly enough to battle me over emotion in his posts - but never made a serious attempt to a) stop the wagon or b) present a better alternative. You said this:

Honestly, I have bigger fish to fry then one lone fool tunneling too hard on someone.

At the time I read that as you getting frustrated that I disagreed with you, but in light of the mislynch this implies that you had something more pressing to discuss. However, you spent the rest of the day arguing with me and then making some fairly irrelevant posts. So, can you please retroactively elaborate on exactly what this means?

if Cruelty and Zorblag are scum I would be surprised but they both seem to be good enough players to pull off convincing townies as scum.
...
if Cruelty and Zorblag are scum I would be surprised but they both seem to be good enough players to pull off convincing townies as scum.

Reads a little like buddying to be honest.



I need to go back and look at DTM and Concerned in iso. Right now, AGar makes me a little uneasy, there's a broken promise (I read 'big post' as 'lots of meaningful content' too, not as 'halfassed summary'). I think that Concerned is possibly buddying a little, but I'm not going to hurl those accusations without a re-read. I will, however, note this before I goto bed.

I'm also starting to get a weird feeling about Lizzy.

..and Lizzy dies. Her #1 suspect? Concerned.

Now I don't think Concerned would be that obvious, it's obviously WIFOM but in a Lylo situation? I have some more to say about this NK (and yes I realise the perils, but I think in this case it's worth pursuing all avenues) because I think it's probably important. I'll leave it until tomorrow though.

No problem!

[cruelty]

Ok this is where I speculate about the NK and why it is potentially important. Thanks to AGar for providing me with more fuel for the fire.

Note to everyone: Do not take this as gospel, all I'm doing here is outlining my thought process. This is not a case, and I'm not going to vote based on what I say here. This is entirely speculation and is intended for discussion only.


So with NKs, it's obviously dangerous (WIFOM) territory to tread on, but I'm inclined to think that sometimes there's a reward for taking the risk. Don't know that this is one of those times, but regardless let's have a look.

Obviously as everyone knows, Lizzy Tsoi was killed, she was VT and she'd come under fire for her passive playstyle which she specifically acknowledged as being something new for this game. Of her critics (which included myself) we can probably point to Concerned as being the most notable. I'll qualify that, he was possibly not the most vocal (I'm not going to word count), but context-wise, he becomes important. The specific quote I'm referring to has been brought up before, but:

I understand that but we're in a bit of a desperate situation at this point. Do I have enough evidence agaisnt Agar/Ezekial to convince another two townies to vote for him? Probably not.

I'm also starting to get a weird feeling about Lizzy. The whole "I've changed my play style for this game because everyone was doing a good enough job." just doesn't satisfy me. It's starting to seem like she's realized her scum style of play has a noticeable difference and is now covering her ass.
But is it even conceivable that I will convince another three people of my suspicions? Probably not.

This is pretty dicey; I REALLY don't like what he's saying here - I tend to think that if you have suspicions, push them. If you think someone is more guilty than the popular lynch, make a case. This didn't happen. Having said that, I can concede his point; I don't think he could have changed the lynch target, but it interests me that he never really made an effort. This isn't about Concerned, however.

Initially I was going to make this post and try to exonerate Concerned, because although it's heavily WIFOMish, I don't think that he'd be that stupid; in his (Concerned's) shoes, I would probably have killed myself (cruelty); we haven't had much to do with each other all game, I noted I didn't really like Lizzy's playstyle and I'm not really under suspicion at the moment (thus my death would have left a more controversial townie alive, making life more difficult for town). Zorblag was probably the other ideal target for Concerned (assuming they're both town, which I'm in no way sure of).

I'm aware there are two scum though, so killing me may not have been in the interest of Concernedscum's partner, thus I'm not willing to interpret the NK as evidence of his innocence.

What the NK has done though, is allow AGar to push a case against Concerned. Obviously Concerned has come under fairly constant fire throughout the game for a variety of reasons, and this NK leading into LyLo has allowed for a reasonably legitimate case to be pushed against him. Take this case with a grain of salt.



I don't think that there'll be any bussing today. I can't think of any good reason for scum to bus each other unless we have a slamdunk case on one of them. Thus, all (serious) cases will likely be scum vs town. Don't read that as scum not engaging in minor skirmishes.

[cruelty]

An advantage we do have is that scum can still afford to be flexible where town can't.

Huh.


Yeah I was going to incriminate Concerned but the more I think about it the less convinced I am of my case, and it sort of morphed into the previous post. I need to re-read DTM, I find him hard to understand - I think it's the sporadic activity and lack of real conviction, which I suppose is scummyish in itself. I'll get onto it.

[cruelty]

I read it, I'm just not sure I agree. I'll think about it.

[cruelty]

Basically, I'm wary of your case because I think it'd take some serious stones for Concerned to kill Lizzy following what he said. It's a little more complicated in my head, but that's what it comes down to.

[cruelty]

@Cruel
386: um. Incriminate? That is a very odd choice of vocabulary given the connotation of the word Shouldn't it be: Concerned is incriminating himself as scummy and you are the town who points it out, not the town who incriminates the scum player

Eh.

I'm not going to get drawn into a battle over this, but I think it's fairly obvious what I meant.

Just so we're clear, incrimination: "to charge with or show evidence or proof of involvement in a crime or fault".

Also I note that you use the word connotation as opposed to denotation.

Does anyone get the feeling that Agar's 381 and Cruel's 383 are a bit simillar. Though the angle is diffrent (*Agar with fake scum hunting and Cruel with WIFOM/NK analysis)... it just reads as repetitition over the same issue.

Not really sure you actually read what I was saying. His post implicates Concerned over his remarks re: Lizzy, mine is more speculation on how the night kill relates to the same. His post is anti-Concerned (ie: is a case), mine actually ends up casting doubt at his (AGar's) case.

As for repetition over the same issues, well ok. We both picked up on that, but drew different conclusions. This is something I think you've either completely missed (skim-reading looking for threads to pull, perhaps?) or deliberately ignored in favour of causing chaos.

[cruelty]

This post might be a bit disjointed, I'm steam-of-consciousing this shit.

2. If you read my full post you would note this:

Though the angle is diffrent (*Agar with fake scum hunting and Cruel with WIFOM/NK analysis)... it just reads as repetitition over the same issue.

Normally in scenerios where scum is trying their hardest to look townie they might slip up and repeat the same arguments. Noted though I addressed that the method of analysis is diffrent which doesn't raise as many flags as a complete

copy and paste workshop would have

. In a sense they would be contributing to discussions, but in a very false sense of it. Hence fake scum hunting and an indicator of someone who ran out of ideas.

So you're seriously trying to build a case over AGar and I looking at the same point?

I don't really think that we're making the same argument - we're approaching the point from entirely different directions and drawing entirely different conclusions. If anyone is fake scumhunting it'd be you with your fairly average attempt to misrep both arguments.

Incriminate? It's really irrelevant given that my use of it was correct. I do note that it looks to me like you're hurriedly backing down from that point (again, an attempt to misrep).

Now that is scummy. Why? because you aren't doing a direct attack on me.

Right. I'm not entirely convinced of your guilt, but I want to impress upon you that I can absolutely conceive of the existence of scumDTM. I don't really think that an outright attack is the strategy I want to pursue at this point - a) as I said, not entirely convinced you're scum, and b) I don't want to talk myself into a mislynch, something I'm entirely capable of doing. What I am prepared to do is poke around and see what comes out.

Having said that, I probably would be comfortable with lynching you I think. I don't like the way you're trying to misrep me.

This is going back a bit, but:

From experience, repeitition of an argument on a person is scummy

Can you actually quote for me the specific instances whereby AGar and I repeated each other's arguments?

did concerned start to attack Lizzy once I questioned her game style? . I'll need to do this on the weekend but it maybe important.

What are your thoughts re: this?

From a purely informational standpoint I like his play a lot better today.

He's basically completely tunneled on Concerned. Reading through his posts from today show a little bit of defence/irritation with DTM, a HINT of a case against DTM and a whole lot of suspicion directed at Concerned. There's barely any mention of you or myself.

From an informational standpoint I wouldn't think that's much so I do take a little bit of an issue with your statement. Yes we're getting a bit of an idea about who he's suspicious of, but I'm not convinced that he's genuine, and I find it very interesting that he has basically nothing to say about either of us, especially when you consider that he and I went at it for a little bit at the end of yesterday.

[cruelty]

???

[cruelty]

waiting

[cruelty]

As a side note, OMGUS? I think you will find I have been suspicious of your slot long before you have been suspicious of me.

That is not necessarily OMGUS. Don't misrep.


And yes, one or both of you are 95% likely to be scum.

I think we really need to hear from DTM at this point, I directed the majority of my last biggish post at him and would like a response before I say much more.

[cruelty]

DTM where are you?

[cruelty]

If DTM is town, if he doesn't vote we're fucked. Unless we can reach a quick consensus on someone else. I could probably get behind an AGar or a Concerned lynch, Zorblag... probably not today.

[cruelty]

AtE is appeal to emotion.

This is such a bad situation.

I know that one of AGar and concerned is scum.

I therefore know that one of Zorblag and DTM is scum. I see that Zorblag has been on the site since his last post, so I can't really think of a compelling reason that he'd be avoiding the game as town.

I don't know what to think about DTM, his lack of contribution lately has been disastrous, my vote is basically just a coin flip at this point - I don't have the information I wanted and I don't have the time to get it. I think that should town lose, then if DTM is town the loss is squarely on his shoulders (and brothernature's, tbh).

So therefore I don't think I can vote for one of them, it has to be one of Concerned or AGar. If I get it right then hopefully we can get some info tomorrow (but that's running the risk of an inactive DTM dragging town down again).

I'm going to bed now, I'll vote in about 9 hours time.

[cruelty]

vote: AGar

I honestly don't know, working without enough information. Sorry if I missed scum, town.

[cruelty]

Curious.

I'll take submissions from both of you, and then make my decision.

[cruelty]

I do, but I'm going to wait for you both to put your cases forward first.

[cruelty]

Note: Due to exams: which is partly why I've been away for so long I'll be done on Wednesday. I want to finish this game till the end. V/LAed untill then.

Also since we are basically at this point and we already narrowed this down to a Troll/DTM debate

Vote : Zorblag

where are you?

at this point regardless of alignment you've managed to completely and utterly ruin the game.

[cruelty]

vote: DTM

Honestly don't really care anymore. You've been consistently scummy over the last few pages and your inactivity took all the fun out of the game.

Zorblag if you're scum well played.

[cruelty]

I had a fairly strong gut feeling that Zorblag was scum. I just wanted to hammer you for ruining the game.

[cruelty]

I was going to but talked myself out of it.

I was sort of in a state of disbelief this entire game at how poorly brothernature played (what an idiot) and I was surprised VW was innocent.

I had a gut read on Zorblag that he was scum from WAY back, but I never saw anything I could specifically point to and build a case on, I tried a couple times to say strange things to try to draw him out but he wasn't buying it so I decided to let it slide.

So yeah, RIP perfect record. I should just listen to my gut I guess. Seems to be right most of the time.