Newbie 869 - Game over

[jee]

Vote: Arthur Dent

You haven't been voted for yet... spreadin' the love.

[jee]

Unvote
Vote: RPG*Twilight

Copy Cat. For using the same reason for his random vote, as i did, one post earlier.

[jee]

You know you just L-2'd that right?

[jee]

I'm not afraid of a lynch with L-2. RVS leads to discussion, and seeing someone put a third vote on someone gets things going. That is another reason my random vote on Twilight, was not so random. Mulitple votes pressure people.

And now that things have started.

Unvote

[jee]

P.S. I don't see a reason in filling out a form. Experience should not affect how you think of someone in a game sense.

[jee]

@Elli, why keep the vote on? No reason.. it was random.

as for questions I dont see why it matters, just extra work for me.

Previous experience with Forum Mafia: few games on other forums, one on here.
What role do you prefer playing? doesn't matter. both of them make you work just as hard
How active are you, on average: Once or Twice a day.

[jee]

@ Twilight. yah that wasn't me. you confused me. Also, you don't want to say, "Oh I'm not going to random vote during RVS, so I will put a second vote on someone." That may create suspicion on me. I saw that you had one vote, so I put a second one on to create pressure, discised as a random vote.

And look at where that got us. DISCUSSION WOO.



and yah... avatar will come. i'll pick something random.

On another note,

vote Deer

[jee]

I have my reasons.

[jee]

I was first checking to see a reaction, looking for a scummy reaction.

This early in the game we don't have much to go on, and I looked at this post:

In regards to the vote, I'm sticking with what jee said. I don't FOS twilight for any reason at all (yet ) so there's no need to keep the vote. We've learned some valuable things, I think.

I thought it may be some sort of buddying. So I decided to expand with that and look for other things he has done. SO PBPA I suppose...

#1

Not really a fan of random voting, but...

vote: RPG*Twilight

because I don't like the twilight series

This could totally be his opinion... but he seems to point out that he isn't a fan of RVS. Saw it maybe as planting seeds in minds to associate him with town because he doesn't like randomly voting for someone.

#2

So where do these random votes take us?

Empty post.

#3,4,5
Longer, defending himself on being innocent. I saw this as over defending himself. I don't think really anyone was is accusing him.. after all, he placed the first vote, what could someone honestly be worried with?

#6
The post above. It struck me as buddying. His #4 also had a little buddying in it, defending my 2nd vote saying it was random.

It was enough at this point in the game for me to put a vote on him.

[jee]

me

[jee]

The above quote you mention was directed towards Mr. Finch, Elli.

You sure? I thought it was directed toward me also. Since Mr.Finch didn't have a vote on you, and you said this about 3 posts after i voted for you.

[jee]

For the people voting for me. Can I get some reasons, possibly to help me better defend the accusations.

Next thing,

@ jee's post 73:

I was first checking to see a reaction, looking for a scummy reaction.

From who? And if it was deer, why didn't you continue to wait

Because I was getting a lot of flack about it, expecially from you

examples:

Well, let's have some more discussion then please. Perhaps you could start by explaining why the vote on Deer?

I have my reasons.

Vagueness gets you nowhere.

@Jee: What the hell is that unexplained vote for? Bussing deer much?

Unvote, Vote jee

And jee, if you have your reasons, feel free to give them to us. I know I've been waiting for your reason to show up, because I'm not seeing it.

FOS: jee

I WAS waiting, but I had alot of people attacking me for it.

#1
What the heck are you talking about? He DOES point out he doesn't like to RV, but how the hell does that associate him with town?

You accuse deer of buddying when he does tiny things such as agreeing with you in #4, and just clarifying a freaking post in #6.

Youre right, it was just little things I saw... the reason I voted him in the first place... to get more out of him... but then, everyone turned after me.

However, you seem to "miss" the below more blatant case of directly defending you in #3.

As Sens said, this seems unfair. Besides Ellibereth, who might just be new and have little experience, me and jee have done little to show ourselves as scum. My reason for voting RPG was just as legitimate as your reason for voting for SensFan, and jee's, while it may have been a slight bandwagon, also appeared to be random.

False, see here:

His #4 also had a little buddying in it, defending my 2nd vote saying it was random.

[jee]

@Mr.Finch... thats kind of just me. I was answering the questions asked, giving no reasons because i was looking for reaction. By the way there isn't any reason to get a person to L-1 this early.

and yes... Chelsea FC ALL THE WAY

[jee]

@ Twilight. yah that wasn't me. you confused me. Also, you don't want to say, "Oh I'm not going to random vote during RVS, so I will put a second vote on someone." That may create suspicion on me. I saw that you had one vote, so I put a second one on to create pressure, discised as a random vote.

I never had you answer this for me, Jee. But what in the heck do you mean by this? You dont want ME to put suspicion on you? Why not? If you're town, what are you afraid of?

I don't know what you're looking for with this. Of course I'm not going to purposely cause suspicion on me.

Looking through your ISO, It seems you have tried to write without writing. In that, I mean You say posts #3,4,5, etc... But why dont you just quote those posts because I have no idea what you are talking about. It's pretty strenuous to hop back and forth reading what you have to write and attribute it to your case and make some sort of reason out of all of it. It's much easier for you and all of us if you just quote em up.

Didn't know I was gonna get in trouble for this... The last game I played in started turning into extremely long walls of quotes and it became unbearable for a lot of people to even keep playing. It became a chore to read through them. I was just trying to avoid it since those posts together were decently long.

What reaction were you looking for? The only reaction you'll ever get out of that is exactly what you got.

IDK what I was expecting. I wanted a reaction. I played mafia in my last game and deer resembled alot of what I did in the game. It was a gut feeling to vote for him, and I was looking at where it led me, from his reaction.

But you gave us none trying to use the "reaction" tactic

I gave you my reason for originally voting for him.... Post 73

[jee]

Don't worry. I'm on jee's tail right now.

...ok...

@ Elli, can I get a follow up from you on my post 103. I thought I answered those questions you had very well and wanted to know what you had to say now.

[jee]

I'm V/LA for two-three days. Sorry guys.

booo i guess i'll come back to it in a few days.


Deer, where have you been. You seem to have disappeared for a few days... as well as a few other people...

[jee]

@jee - Do you read the thread? I posted that access would be limited for me back in post 100.

booo i guess i'll come back to it in a few days.

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're not serious. Just 'cos Elli's away doesn't mean you can't offer opinions on other people. Do you still feel that Deer is scum? Are YOU bussing?

Do you read the thread? It wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Elli.... which I quoted right before I said it.

I can offer opinions, I was actually just about to post something to someone..which will be later in this post.

I haven't talked enough to Deer, like i said, he kind of disappeared. Why does everyone seem to think someone is bussing right when they accuse someone....

anyway.

Sorry for the disappearance!

I've been reading the thread, but I don't know what to add at this point. The whole 'DarkLightA vs. jee vs. deer vs. SensFan vs. Ellibereth' is getting a little bit overwhelming. I'm just not sure what questions to ask at this point.

At this point, I don't even have a strong enough leaning to even give some input or pressure on a player.
I'll reread the thread and see if I can find any information that hasn't been brought up, but it seems like to many players are on a defensive track to establish who's most likely trying to hide something.

This post jumped out at me and I completely disagree with it. The WHOLE post is basically telling us he is fencesitting. You are trying to not take a side at all. There are always things to be asked.

FoS: Arthur Dent

[jee]

Things like this need to be explained - you can't say "I'm explaining no further" and except anyone else to believe it. Not sure it's a scumtell, necessarily, but it definitely doesn't help you look pro-town.

fensesitting

[jee]

Do you read the thread? It wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Elli.... which I quoted right before I said it.

Yes, I read and re-read and re-reread the thread. And if Elli is going to be away for two or three days, what was the point of saying it? There wasn't any.

then what was the point of saying i was talking to you

I can offer opinions, I was actually just about to post something to someone..which will be later in this post.

I haven't talked enough to Deer, like i said, he kind of disappeared. Why does everyone seem to think someone is bussing right when they accuse someone....

Did I say I thought you were bussing? No. I asked if you were. It was a straight yes or no answer question.

You were not the only one who suggested bussing.... There were others, example:

@Jee: What the hell is that unexplained vote for? Bussing deer much?

Unvote, Vote jee

I believe that you are active lurking and not offering anything pro-town, so I am not sitting on the fence

Really...? If you think I have a problem with lurking and not offering you really need to look into other people. You've had it out for me since my vote on Deer, and I can't figure out why. I'm an aggressive player. You really need to stop tunnel visioning before something happens. I hate referring to other games becaues I myself hate reading full sets of games when someone points them out, BUT, I played in Newbie 819 as a mafia member. This playstyle is completely different, but I dont think anyone is going to bring attention to themselves as mafia (call is WIFOM or whatever). And something has bothering me with ArthurDent

Arthur Dent stuck out a lot to me after his #122. This is a bad case of fensesitting and it stuck out a lot. Scum players can be indecisive because they know who the real mafia is. Its easier for them to not get involved with accusing someone, then it is to lurk and fense sit. After I accused him of it, all he had was:

I'll admit, I'm an indecisive player. I don't like taking sides unless I have a gut feeling.

He blames his very scummy post on his playstyle.

Unvote
Vote: ArthurDent

[jee]

And something has bothering me with ArthurDent

Arthur Dent stuck out a lot to me after his #122. This is a bad case of fensesitting and it stuck out a lot. Scum players can be indecisive because they know who the real mafia is. Its easier for them to not get involved with accusing someone, then it is to lurk and fense sit. After I accused him of it, all he had was:

Arthur Dent wrote:
I'll admit, I'm an indecisive player. I don't like taking sides unless I have a gut feeling.
He blames his very scummy post on his playstyle.

Unvote
Vote: ArthurDent

I'm a bit baffled at how I'm fence sitting. A fence sitting is someone who's torn between two sides, but I've already said that I have one way I'm leaning. So if I am fence sitting, then the two sides are 'am I right? and 'am I wrong?' And if that's scummy, you'll have to explain it to me, because I don't get it.
Plus, I'd rather be an 'indecisive player' than use the erratic play style you've been using.

But would you not agree that an indecisive player is a big scumtell?

[jee]

Also, you pointed out what you were leaning toward after I originally accused you of fensesitting. Now that you say your suspects are 'deer, jee, and elli' which happen to be the 3 under the most fire right now.

And after ur recent vote on elli, since he's my other biggest suspect, I believe this vote from you might be a buss

[jee]

@jee: Oh, we numbered the posts differently. Answer this please: What is buddying and why is it a scumtell?

So we got 103 cleared up? or was there more.

Buddying is agreeing with other people. It is a scum tell when it is used in combination of not including much into the discussion. The scum can use this by just agreeing without actually saying something that may back them into a corner later.

[jee]

And the thing that is pulling me not toward Darklight, is that I don't believe a person would play this way if they had something to hide. But thats maybe what he wants us to think. IDK. I guess a claim would be good now.

[jee]

i think he's already got 5 votes...

[jee]

or turkey

[jee]

I'm not going to vote right now, as it's too early to really determine why the NK happened, and the such.

I have a good feeling that they did it because I was attacking Arthur Dent, and multiple people already have suspicion on me.

However, look at Jee's voting pattern, a couple of jumps and then his vote was on Arthur and it never moved, even during the DLA hammer. I'm not saying it should have done as he specifically posted that he thought that DLA was playing more toward town than scum. This could just be his scum knowledge trying to steer towards Arthur.

Voting Jumps: Beginning of the game, it happens alot.
Keeping vote on AD: I didn't like his indecisiveness. I didn't want to take part in the DLA lynch because it was based off of nothing (imo). He played as an unhelpful VT. I didn't think someone would play that 'dumb', no offense to DLA, as a mafia. As people can see, it brought a lot of attention to him.


ALSO, if I were scum, why, out of anybody, would I choose AD to nightkill. AD's indecisive decisions would be a perfect accusation to push toward and get him mis-lynched. Why would I make it hard on myself and kill my 'top suspect'. I would then be required to fabricate another accusation on someone else.. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[jee]

1. The mafia's killing of AD is bizarre to me. Arthur had a good chance of being lynched today, and killing him takes away the opportunity for him to be mislynched. Now, just because jee cast the most suspicion on AD does not, in my eyes, make him any more town than he was before. He could have killed Arthur just for the purposes of making the argument he's making now - because he FOS'd AD, he is not scum because AD died.

True, but a lot of the things said in this game can be taken that way.

2. I still FOS Elli and Jee; Elli more than jee, though. I'd like to have Elli come in and defend him/herself before I vote, though.

What does Elli have to defend if you haven't accused him/her yet?

[jee]

I believe it is classified as WIFOM

[jee]

I believe it is classified as WIFOM

Do you think using WIFOM is scummy?

I believe that both town and scum use it, and because of that, using WIFOM can be used as a case supporter for further incrimination, but not a sole reason for an accusation.

[jee]

Do you think using bad logic is scummy?

Too general of a question. If its from misinterpretation, it can be brushed away. If its purposeful, then yes its bad.

Deer can you follow up on this?

2. I still FOS Elli and Jee; Elli more than jee, though. I'd like to have Elli come in and defend him/herself before I vote, though.

What does Elli have to defend if you haven't accused him/her yet?

You make it seem like you were attacking Elli, and Elli needed to defend him/her self or you were gonna threaten a vote.

[jee]

Are you planning on attacking Elli yourself? or just waiting

[jee]

Sens, I'm not sure how you are getting this whole arguement just because someone used a word, and you think they didn't know what it meant. There's no proof... let it go.

Scum pairs can get suggested whenever, its just kind of ridiculous to be pointing them out early in the game because everyone attacks everyone. There isn't an easy way to find a pair with so little to go on.

[jee]

I know it looks like nothing to you guys, but trust me. I've played in countless Newb Games, and I know a slip when I see one. I'm 99% positive she's Scum.

That may be true but we can't just charge into another mislynch with only that.

The fact he used the term bussing without knowing what it meant means he saw it somewhere in a context that wasn't clear what it meant. I don't think he would get that mix-up if he actually read a game, I think it's vastly more likely he was reading about tips for playing as Scum and came across the term.

How is this a fact? Where does he admit to using the word without knowing what it means. You assumed he did, asked him what it meant, and Elli produced an answer that was correct. And in my opinion, he was using it correctly.

See below

From Elli:

@Jee: What the hell is that unexplained vote for? Bussing deer much? Unvote, Vote jee

in reference to me voting for Deer without explination. He thought I was trying to attack a teammate in order to distance myself from him, and thats how he called it. IT ISNT ANYTHING TO GO FROM. Unless you can explain yourself how this is FACTually a slip up. Other than that, it's just another accusation in Mafia.

You make it seem like you were attacking Elli, and Elli needed to defend him/her self or you were gonna threaten a vote.

Attacking Deer or defending Elli?

1. Can you make sure you tag the quotes with names? I got confused for a second. Its this just in case you didn't know:

Code: Select all

[quote="Name"]fasjdlfadf[/quote]

Thanks. You may have known that and just forgot, but just sayin.

2. It was an attack on Deer. Deer said he was waiting for a defense from Elli, without ever attacking Elli himself. It threw up a red flag for me. Possibly a buss in my opinion. Yes, I said it... a buss.

Sens - most vocal

Just pointing out that this is more important than you may realize. If I'm the most vocal, it's not unusual for me to commmit the most 'scumtells', due to sheer volume of content.

That may be a reason he pointed it out. But as far as I'm concerned, All of your content is either

1. Pointing Elli out because of his use of the word 'buss'

OR

2. Arguing with DLA and eventually getting him mislynched. (Although I agree, he definately wasn't helping the town in any way)

So all of your 'content' (tunneling) isn't going to clear yourself as town.



I think we should all go through and post our top 2 suspects as of right now.

[jee]

Because that's not bussing, its distancing.

Its bussing that indirectly leads to distancing. You can buss someone non any page. You can attack your scum partner at anytime.

@Elli, because Deer acted like he was attacking a Elli. But the thing is, he never attacked him until now.

[jee]

Anyway, I hope I'm not completely wrong and I'm not just affected by tunnel vision....if I am I'm sorry to the both of you but as I read through the thread I just couldn't help getting this feeling.

No need to apologize. This whole game is full of accusations: right and wrong.

@Mr.Finch:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing

Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your partners, usually by helping to lynch them.

Bussing and distancing go hand in hand.

As for TNM's (totally not mafia) attack, its kind of hard to defend against an accusation from 'feeling'. So if there are some specific things, I can defend those.




So how about everyone posting their top two suspects?
Ill go first. Deer and Elliberth.

[jee]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing

Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your partners, usually by helping to lynch them.

Bussing and distancing go hand in hand.

It doesn't have to lead to lynch.

[jee]

Well I thought I did give reasons in my post. The main thing was your out-of-the-blue vote for Deer without any explanation which seemed like a way of you and him pretending not to be working together. Then when someone asked you for reasons, I thought they were pretty weak and just an afterthought when you were forced to explain yourself. Here they are:

I have already stated whyI did the vote without reason. I thought his playing was weird and wanted to see if I could stir it up. Maybe it was a bad choice to say 'I have my reasons' rather than 'I will explain in a little'. It was to get a reaction.. Thats all.

Second:

So one of your reasons to vote him was because he was buddying. Well, here's the weird part:

jee, I'm confused on who you think I'm "buddying" with.

then:

me

wtf? Your reason for voting for Deer was because he was buddying with you?

Yes, buddying with me. Its a strategy used by mafia to show that they are working together with someone. When that someone is lynched and turns town, they are able to refer to the buddying in order to defend. The mafia member won't ever buddy up with their mafia partner... that would be dumb on their part

[jee]

Elli, how can you honestly attack TNM for things RPG said. Although the actions of both players should be similar because they are playing the same role, he has no way of defending them.

Reasons for my top two suspects:
Deer: I had a gut feeling since the beginning on how he was acting. I pointed it out, ad was attacked for it. But now it seems that many more people see Deer as a suspect.

Elli: Sens pointed out Elli's 'slip' early in the game which kind of got me thinking about the possibilty of him being scum. After looking at the way he was reacting to what people said, he jumped up higher on my suspect list.

As a person who played mafia in my first game, I kind of know how I acted in certain situations so I have been looking and trying to pick up those same tells from others in this game. No one else is really screaming out their guiltiness and that is why those are my top 2.

[jee]

Gut call scumteam: TNM, Deer. Happy with either lynch.

Elli can you explain why you'd be happy with a Deer lynch. I haven't really seen much from you about him. Mostly just TNM

If you think I’m scummier then jee you should go ahead and vote.

Well I for one think you're scummier than jee.

Vote: Elliberth

[jee]

Unvote

I have done a re-read on RPG/TNM and can't find what Elli suggests is scummy. I don't believe that what he posted is truly scummy behaviour.

As was already pointed out by Sens long days are good for town and I am happy after my re-read that he's pro-town right now.

I don't like Elli's postings (I will post more when I'm not sneaking in a post from work) but am a little nervous of mislynching as it puts us at a very hard position (unless scum choose to not NK which is just dumb in my opinion).

FWIW my scumread right now is Elli and Deer.

This whole post really confused me.

1. You unvote a vote that was on SensFan, without reason
2. You follow it up by saying TNM is cleared in your mind.

This threw me off because you just unvoted. You know your vote was on SensFan right? And you said nothing about SensFan in this whole post, the person you just unvoted.

[jee]

@Mr.Finch: understood. usually people will say why they don't have as strong of a suspicion on someone when they unvote without revoting.

Elli, why didn't you bring up RPG's scumminess (FYPOV) while he was still here - it seems unfair to suddenly attack TNM for something he didn't do.

Yet again Deer attacks Elli for reasons that were already previously stated. Looks like he just is making it easy on himself and just using the same material everyone else uses.

Elli, I believe you are L-1, which means a role claim is in order.

[jee]

My thoughts so far:
Elli has been under suspicion for a while now. Just claimed cop and investigated me.
At this time. I don't know how I feel about the claim. Right now, I believe it.

Unvote

Which leads me to my next suspicion.

Vote: Deer

[jee]

I haven't been around until yesterday after Elli was lynched. So I wasn't going to add anything in, since it is suppose to be night. So we'll let the lynch and NK figure out what happens.

Just letting people know I'm still here.

[jee]

Maybe he overdosed on turkey again.

[jee]

First off... No kill wooooo!!!

Second... Seeing as there was no nightkill, there probably is a doctor. And if sens is telling the truth, then there is a cop. Meaning there is a roleblocker... So sens was probably roleblocked.

Third... Before anyone starts voting for me. Let me make my case. It should be up by at least late tonight.

[jee]

Maybe the remaining mafia tried to block who they thought was the doctor and kill SensFan, which would really make more sense to do the other way round.

I guess so. But that is a huge gamble to take. I don't see it ever happening with out a definite doc tell from a townie.


And Nachomamma brings up a good point which will be the main jist of my case.

First off, I believe SensFan's cop claim. I'd like to know the outcome of his check, and possibly who it was on.

Second, I have turned away from Deer for now on being Mafia. An explaination why:

1. Deer hammered Elli. Very surprising to do if the two were scum buddies. I mean, yah it could happen... but very risky.
2. In post 307,

Guys, we hit deadline in less a week btw.

Unvote, Vote Deer

He's shown consistent lack of scumhunting and a habit of only reacting to posts specifically directed toward him. The rare times he has questioned someone has been mimicries of previously asked questions.

I expect Sens to post more after his finals are over.

Usually mafia will try to change peoples mind when the time is running out. Like a desperation lynch. Which is what I see this post as. He is running out of time (which he states) and votes for Deer. Why would he vote for his scumbuddy on his desperation lynch? It could be seen as further distancing right before he comes to an inevitable lynch, but this was before he started getting all the votes and before Sens said he was cop.

Those are the things that stuck out for Deer being town.


Next on the list:

After rereading the thread to look at Deer and SensFan, I noticed something interesting. Mr.Finch was the only one who didn't vote last night. I kinda had a weird feeling about him on Day 2 also, so I decided to reread from the beginning, knowing that Elli was scum. If you look in the beginning, they do some useless arguing on whether or not they think certain things are scummy or not. Of course, the two were on opposite sides of the argument.

Example Post 29. this one stuck out for me:

WAAAGOOOON!!

Unvote, Vote RPG*Twilight

Why? Isn't this a particularly Scummy thing to do?

Unvote

FoS Ellibereth

I don't think it's scummy. Why do you think it is.

Another thing... know Elli is scum, look at post 332. This is the very next post after SensFan comes out as cop and tells the town who is guilty:

Well, cats and pigeons spring to mind. TBH, that was exactly what I was expecting Sens to say. Potential for huge WIFOM here though...

Who's the scubuddy in your opinion then Sens?

By an unofficial vote count (me reading and making a note from Mod's last count) Elli's at 1 vote, Deer at 2.

The underlined might go by unnoticed normally, but looking back... this looks like he is trying to see if he is next on the list.

Then the very next post is him again:

EBWOP: I am inclined (considering my last post reference newbie 843) to go with Sens as cop right now and vote for Elli. No rush yet though, Deadline's not until Thursday.

Ooh! Just realised something else. It's said (in this game I think!) Town prefer longer days:

Guys, we hit deadline in less a week btw.

Hmm...

He believes SensFan, but doesn't want to vote?....What?

Then he disappears up until Deer hammers Elli.


So, check it out. I would suggest reading through the thread again. If you don't have time, read through it in iso with Elli and Mr.Finch.

Vote Mr.Finch

[jee]

mod: thread still says 'Night 2'

yah tnm, I kinda just want mr.finch to claim for now though.

[jee]

Probably because I didn't vote. Now, before I went to vote I asked if it was L-1 on Elli. He said he'd been lynched and I couldn't see the point of voting when there was already a lynch. It wasn't until we went to night that I realised it would make me look scummy. You're wrong though.

Nope. Any other guesses, Finchy? Let's put some effort into this guess instead of just looking at jee's case on you...

I'd like to know

[jee]

Yes, we should keep discussing. Who knows when SensFan will come on.

[jee]

Uhh, this is a lot for it being so late tonight... so I will read thoroughly tomorrow.

But think about this....
How was there no kill AND a successful cop investigation?

This question is really hitting me, and I'm not even sure what to take on it right now... so hopefully more on this tomorrow.

[jee]

Well that would be redicuosly hard to try. Doesn't even make sense why someone thought they had a shot at it...

Second, I think everyone checks the forums enough. Especially when they are an important night role. The only person who kinda went missing was sens, but he claims he got a cop investigation.

[jee]

@sens, want this answered

Sens:

Why do you think you weren't roleblocked/killed? Also, why did you investigate TNM?

@nacho:

do you remember what general thing it was about?

[jee]

Okay

@Nacho, after SensFan says he checked and cleared a townie I started thinking the same things as what you said in your case on SensFan... it just doesn't make any sense.




@TNM case on me, Those 'bandwaggon' votes have to be looked at closer. The first one was in RVS, the second can be put into context, but was meerly a coincidence, and the third had a long case attached. It couldn't have just simply been a bandwaggon vote.

On the random votes... all the votes were going toward my top suspects at the time. Nothing random about them. The first one was during RVS still, the next ones included a reason why I didn't think my current vote was correct.

On the 'third' thing. I truely believed I found mafia and wanted to see if I could get him to mix up on a claim. Maybe say he was doctor then have a doctor counterclaim.

On the 'forth' thing. Like you said, Elli clearing me can't steer decisions either way. His clearing me helped me believe he was truely town. Just like you are when SensFan cleared you.

On the 'last' thing... I have nothing for that. Elli acted how he would and I can't speak for his actions.



@For TNM,

Well then there's only three other scenarios (that I can see):

1) Doctor protected SensFan, Scum for some reason tried to shoot and roleblock SensFan

2) Doctor protected someone other than SF, Scum shot at someone other than SF, just happened to hit the same person

- Both of these seem just as ridiculous

3) Scum decided not to use their night actions for strategy reasons.

- Seems plausible, although it still puts the mafia in a weakened position by not shooting anyone.

Scum missing the deadline almost seems like the most reasonable out of all the scenarios - it was Christmas afterall.

but you can't completely forget about the first two 'ridiculous' cases. IMO, the 3rd case comes out to be more rediculous than the second.

If you were a mafia for this game, give me one good strategic reason why you would not use any nightroles.




@Sens: With the above question I wanted to hear from you, I would like to hear answers for both questions.

1. Why do you think you weren't roleblocked?
2. Why did you chose TNM to investigate, even though I was under the majority of the towns suspicion. Why investigate someone no one was after? Someone that can most likely be cleared as town from just looking at his posts, as opposed to clearing a townie under suspicion and stopping a mislynch.

[jee]

I think I know why SF may have suspected me but I'll wait and see what his reason is.

And yes, I'd like to hear his answer before you say anything.

[jee]

Okay

@For TNM,

Well then there's only three other scenarios (that I can see):

1) Doctor protected SensFan, Scum for some reason tried to shoot and roleblock SensFan

2) Doctor protected someone other than SF, Scum shot at someone other than SF, just happened to hit the same person

- Both of these seem just as ridiculous

3) Scum decided not to use their night actions for strategy reasons.

- Seems plausible, although it still puts the mafia in a weakened position by not shooting anyone.

Scum missing the deadline almost seems like the most reasonable out of all the scenarios - it was Christmas afterall.

but you can't completely forget about the first two 'ridiculous' cases. IMO, the 3rd case comes out to be more rediculous than the second.

If you were a mafia for this game, give me one good strategic reason why you would not use any nightroles.

I'll have to have a think about it, but in the meantime could you tell me what you yourself can gather from all of last night's actions and what you think may have happened, and if it will affect your vote at all (or if possible who you are leaning towards as scum)?

The most reasonable explination for me, is that a doctor decided to block someone else besides SensFan. Whether he didn't like SensFan's counter-claim, or he was trying something out of the ordinary and blocking someone the mafia wouldn't expect. I have an idea who I think is doctor, which helps build this.

As for the roleblock, it doesn't make sense how SensFan didn't get roleblocked. Which is why my top suspect is turning into SensFan. I believe he may have either 1. He's mafia and didn't think about it thouroghly and slipped. or 2. Mafia purposely didn't roleblock to confuse us, which doesn't make sense.


Looking back, SensFan didn't say a whole lot for us to build a case on him. He was set on one thing, lynching Elli for Day 1 and Day 2. There were plenty of other suspects to go on.

I did find one thing that caught my attention. Back in Post 336, the very next post that Elli says after SensFan counterclaims:

Sens has shown a clear willingness as scum to trade himself for a town power-role in past newbie games.

See this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9218

Anyway, I call total BS to his claim.

Unvote, Vote Sensfan

If I do go today, my bet is on a Sensfan, Deer scumpair.

First why is a previous game the FIRST thing someone points out after a counterclaim? Usually a defense occurs in the situation rather than another attack.

Second, click on the link... this is 'Newbie Game 669'. Game current up to the 890's meaning this game was old. Looking back through the threads I found this game on page 3 of Road to Rome. Page 3 of 50 threads each. I find it hard to believe that Elli would search back about 150 threads to find this specific game, especially before SensFan counterclaimed. There was only 4.5 hours between the time SensFan counterclaimed and Elli posting this. So Elli had to first read SensFan's post, then search back through every game that SensFan played to find one case where he traded 1-for-1. In my opinion, SensFan is mafia.

Unvote

I think their plan was, SensFan buss from the start, leaving cop clues. Elli claims cop. If someone counterclaims, they NK cop. If not, SensFan counterclaims and sticks it out til the end. I believe he messed up when he said he had a clear on TNM.

After all, is it a coincidence that SensFan didn't post his counterclaim until after everyone else posted. Is it a coincidence that he chose to check the person no one really suspected, and not the person who was next to lynch on the town list.. like me.

I think not

Vote SensFan

Next on suspect list:
Mr.Finch
Deer

[jee]

Ok well I was going to have to do this eventually... And I decided to do it now before I might have been NKd or something.

I AM THE DOCTOR

I figured this information was vital for the town to know. Meaning if SensFan is really the cop, there is a roleblocker still out there.

Assuming the mafia tried to nightkill, I decided to save Nachomamma, which clears him as town.

My list was:
SensFan
Deer
Mr.Finch
TNM
Nachomamma


My choice came from this reasoning.

Deer: He was under a lot of suspicion for being Elli's partner and it would be good for mafia to keep him around.

Mr.Finch: after my reread, I decided Mr.Finch is the most suspicious and I believed him to be mafia. My case I posted after it became day will help back that up. It would make sense to save who I thought was mafia.

TNM: He was very suspicious of me, along with a few other people. So mafia would keep him around to help lead the town into a mislynch.

SensFan: Now, yes.. SensFan was the CC'd cop. But don't you think that would be obvious to protect him? Mafia 'know' I'm going to protect him. They would have a much better chance at killing someone else. Someone who wasn't under very much suspicion at the time...

Like... Nachomamma. So I protected him, and there was no NK. You're Welcome


SO,

jee: Doctor
Nachomamma: cleared by doc
TNM: cleared by town/cleared from possible Cop
SensFan: possible Cop.. still unsure how I feel
Deer: unknown
Mr.Finch: unknown

Hope that helps lead you guys in the right direction.

[jee]

Who did you protect night one?

ps I don't get how protecting nachomamma clears him, there's still the possibility of no scum night actions submitted

You're right.

I protected rpg^twilight night 1. He seemed most innocent at the time. And you replaced him

[jee]

The whole reason I claimed now was because I didn't want people to think it was a desperation fake claim when I'm in L-1.

[jee]

Well, nacho, as of this moment, I'm pretty sure TNM is town, and if you don't want to lynch an un-cc'd doc or cop, then that only leaves you or Finch's replacement for me to lynch, and I'd rather lynch you than Finch's replacement. I wouldn't feel bad lynching jee either, as I'm really not sold on his claim, but I guess my vote will just stay where it is for now unless someone can talk me out of it.

tnm is definately town. Think about it... If tnm is mafia, then sensfan would get a scum on him. If sensfan is mafia and lying, then tnm is definately town because there is only 1 mafia left. If anyone else is mafia, sens's read would still be correct with town.

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

[jee]

@jee: Is this your first game as doctor? What do you think the best strategy for the doctor is (and not just the strategy for night, strategy throughout the day as well)?

Yes, my first game as doctor, as well as first game on mafiascum as town in general.

For the day, stay out of trouble. Don't lurk though. For night, its up to the doctor. I think protecting the most innocent is a good idea, because its the person the mafia most want to get rid of. If there is a cop, its common to protect him. Which is why I chose to protect someone else. Thinking mafia wouldn't expect it. And seeing as you thought that idea was 'stupid', you didn't expect it either.

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

I don't really believe you - I think there's a good possibility we don't have a doctor, and therefore, you are uncc'd. You've been pretty scummy this whole game and just because you claim doctor in a game where we don't even know we have one doesn't take my suspicion off you. As for sens, I don't feel bad because I pretty much trust his claim - he CC'd a scum that claimed cop, and unless it is a ridiculously huge bus, he is probably the cop.

You don't believe me, so now you're fine with getting rid of me... without really hearing anything from me after my claim.


I'm fine as of now with a lynch against Mr.Finch or Deer. If everyone is telling the truth, they're the top two without any confirmations. Right now I am leaning more toward Mr.Finch because if its true that the mafia didn't do any night roles, Mr.Finch did kind of disappear day 3. Deer also hammered Elli. I also have a case against Mr.Finch that was enough to convince me of him being scum.

[jee]

And seeing as SensFan won't be lynched tonight,

Unvote
Vote Mr.Finch

[jee]

doesn't mean its false either. why do you want to get rid of nacho?

[jee]

This won't put the town in any better of a situation. You lynch me today, TNM, you'll most likely be nightkilled. And then no one will be comfirmed town.

I recommend waiting til Day 4 before you push a lynch on me. Then you can see how the nightactions play out. Assuming SF is truthful, the mafia will either have to shoot me or sensfan. If mafia kills another townie, it leaves two powerroles. Basically half the town will have powerroles.


I'm still leaning toward mafia being Mr.Finch if we aren't going after SF. Although I'm very unsure about SensFan. This will also give us a better understanding on SF once the night actions happen.



@TNM, don't you think that I was planning to claim doctor the whole time, I'd be breadcrumming and playing more of a cliche doctor the whole game?

@Nacho, I don't recommend you just following along with TNM. Lets use this last week before deadline to actually scum hunt.

THE TOWN WILL BE IN A BAD SITUATION... DONT DO IT. Wait it out one more day at least.

[jee]

unvote
vote no lynch

like i said, seeing the night actions will help make a better judgement.

[jee]

We really need sensfan and mr.finch's replacement in here.

[jee]

there will be nothing to gain from lynching me tonight. i have no other way of convincing you... i thought i did the RIGHT thing to come out now. apparently an unCC'd doc is hard to believe.

[jee]

Packing up to head back to school but, I'm fine with lynching SensFan. If no one will agree with that, Mr.Finch is close with him.

SensFan has been far more scummy then me this whole game. Hes been stuck on one person who was scum because of one small, what he calls, slip. I didn't see it at all. During day 1, lets not forget he helped push a lynch toward DarkLightA. (he saw he had the backup to get him lynched and decided on a quick mislynch). He's suppose to be the IC, and compared to my last IC, he hasn't done anything to help us. Only make us not discuss, show us how to tunnel, and being an IC means that you can use that on your defense.

IMO, SensFan is scum, he made his own slip by saying that he had a result. And his result was worthless. Who in their right mind thought that TNM was mafia? No one. No one even mentioned it. SensFan is just trying to cover for himself, and now that he isn't here, we will get to the night and he won't even be active enough to get in his nightrole now to investigate.

He was obviously dropping cop tells the whole time because it was his plan to get Elli lynched anyway. That was his plan.

Nachomamma isn't mafia because he would have been active enough to get in his night roles. The cliche thing for me to do would be protect the doc, and if he purposley didn't send in a night kill, that means he would have only secured the fact that SensFan is cop because it would have looked like I protected him. And that wouldn't help his case at all.

It would make a lot more sense for SensFan to purposely not turn in his NK. Because then it looks like I protected him. And if I didn't protect him, it would make doc come out (like I did) and tell people who I blocked.

...My choice is SensFan, Mr.Finch, Deer. In that order.

[jee]

Except I am telling the truth.

@Deer. You make cases about distancing on ANYONE. challenge me... I will do it. I already have one on Mr.Finch.

Hes been stuck on one person who was scum because of one small, what he calls, slip. I didn't see it at all.

But Elli was scum. Whether or not Sens saw a slip or not, Elli was scum. And like I've said before, basically everything Sens said on D2, I believe, can be chalked up to him being a cop with a guilty.

he also has a lot more experience with it. alot more than me.

DLA was a ridiculously poor town player - he tunneled on Sens with no case whatsoever. I thought he was scum and most of the others did too.

True, but its an easy way for a mislynch. Who wouldn't take the oppotunity.

Here's what I think happened. Jee chose not to NK, knowing full well he could claim doctor tomorrow and get suspicion off of himself. However, he forgot that if there is both a doctor and a cop, there is also a roleblocker, and Sens was not roleblocked. I'm pretty sure nobody would just miss the deadline like that - you've got to know what you're doing. So, because he can't explain the lack of roleblocking, he has to try and get Sens (our cop) lynched, and Nacho is merely helping him.

You don't think I would have spent the last month playing the game and thinking about that in my head before I came out and claimed doc?

I'm pretty sure that in a newbie game like this, such a massive bus wouldn't occur. Even if jee is our doctor, he will be roleblocked and Sens will be killed. That leaves us with nowhere to go and jee looking just as scummy. The best plan is to lynch jee today and see what happens.

'pretty sure'. shutting out the possibilty of SF being scum because you are 'pretty sure'. why kill me when we have 3 others who haven't even claimed. See how the night roles go...

[jee]

Experience with what? bussing? knowing scumtells?

Bussing

You cannot make a case on somebody because they voted to lynch someone who played a really, really weak town game. If that was true, everyone here except you would be scum. In fact, it seems like you might have not voted DLA just so you could later say "I told you so" like you're kind of doing now.

I didn't make a case on it from this. There are ALOT of things that both I and Nachomamma have pointed out that build a case on SF. I'm not saying 'I told you so'. However, I'd love to be able to say that when this game is over.

I think I know what you're getting at, but you're not really making a good case for yourself here. I think you would have thought about that, being mafia and all. If you want to explain this further, please do.

There is really nothing else to explain. If I was planning this all along, I came out as doc after SF said he got an investigation. Why would I continue with my 'plan' for claiming doc if I would have already seen the mess up. There was no reason on coming out as doc if the plan had a flaw in it. You're idea of a slip doesn't make any sense.

You can never be 100% sure in this game. I'm pretty sure you are scum, and I'm pretty sure Sens isn't. It's the only thing I have to go on.

Yah I guess so, but you and TNM tunneling isn't helping anything at all.


@deer, what specifically do you not like about my case against Mr.Finch from when Day 3 first started? TNM, you can answer that too, if you'd like.

MOD: Is there anyway we can get a deadline extension? Considering we have had two people missing the whole day, I'd love to hear ALOT more from those two.

[jee]

@jee, I consider a lot of what Nachomamma has said over the last few pages to be pretty scummy, particularly when I accuse him of something scummy he says that he thinks I'm confused, talking down to me in order to try and diminish my arguments. What do you think of a possible Nachomamma lynch today?

Don't really like it seeing as the night I saved him, there was no night kill.

Meaning either someone missed their nightrole, but Nacho is plenty active to get those in, OR he purposly didn't send in a NK. But there isn't any strategy for Nachomamma to do that. It was expected for me to be protecting SensFan, if there wasn't a NK when I protected SF, there would be a lot more not needed to be said, and I wouldn't need to come out and tell you what I did.



The way I see it, there are 6 people with two lynches and one no lynch able to fit in there. There are 3 people

I

am unsure of. IMO, I would like to get rid of SF now because he has the least amount of evidence out of anyone. If we mislynch tonight, it will come down to him vs someone else, and due to shear lack of content, we won't have anything more to go off sensfan. If SF gets lynched tonight, we will have it down to 2 people with a lot more content for each. Another reason I'd like more time to get more time for Mr.Finch's replacement. I don't think SF is in the process of being replaced, so IDK when he will start talking.

[jee]

See, you say this and then get mad at us for wanting to lynch you, even though you are the "un-cc'd doc." It doesn't make sense, really.

But where is SF defending himself? I'm the only one who KNOWS I'm the doctor. Thats why I am happy with lynching SF and not myself.

And TNM, I would be fine with a Nacho lynch - I'm pretty sure either him or jee are the scum. Nacho might in fact be buddying up with jee just so if we eventually lynch jee, Nacho can talk about how against the lynch he was, and so therefore, he is town. But, jee has been a bit scummier IMO.

Dont.

Think about this logically. I protected him. I made a whole case basically guaranteeing him being a townie. Look at my last post.

Yet again, suspicion: SF, Mr.Finch, Deer.

[jee]

Good. I would like tohear Zorblag take on the whole situation before we go on.

[jee]

Like TNM said, I agree with these fresh opinions and I think now that we have people speaking for these two, it will be alot easier to keep off tunneling. I have actually had some other ideas on scumminess and have been holding off mentioning it for a while. Maybe in a day.

[jee]

@jee, at this point I'd like to hear your take on the state of the game; you pretty much have to be the doctor so I'd like to see you take an active role in leading the discussion as you're the one we know we can trust.

Hmmmm, I think that we are in a pretty good state now that we have active players. Out of the 5 we have left, I think we need to pick out of Deer, Pulidar, and Zorb.

Zorblag, although SensFan was very scummy to me, you have helped change my opinion on him because of the very town posts.

Pulidar, I was very set on Mr.Finch being mafia, but it was mostly coming to me later as the game went on, not so much at the beginning. Him not voting on Day 2 kind of pushed me to attack him. But now I'm not so sure. Pulidar is doing a good job as a replacement.

In post 448, I mentioned new ideas on scumminess that I have been having for a while. That was my suspicion for Deer has been coming back on Day 3. I didn't like his early game play and got me very suspicious of him. I would have been happy to attack him on Day 3 except for his hammer vote on Elli Day 2. That situation pulled me away from him and more toward Mr.Finch. But now that I think about it, I feel a hammer vote on a scum partner is a very good way to buss/distance a them. I however do not have much more of a case on him besides the things that have already been mentioned by others.

[jee]

Hah it's cool TNM

mod, same with my double post

[jee]

@jee: As a confirmed town, it'd be greatly beneficial to us if you took the lead. That means, remaining active and questioning everything scummy you find on other people. I'd also like you to make an analysis on every player in the game and why you find them scummy, like Zorblag did in his 495.

Alright, when I get the time.

[jee]

At the moment we have 1 scum left. Now, from what I picked up in Newbie 843, if there is a roleblocker scum alive then their night action can only be roleblock or lynch, not both.

As we have no NK then my guess would be that the scum roleblocked Sens. We won't know until Sens returns.

This was Mr.Finch's first post after the night where there was no roleblock, Day 3. And this was even before SF posted anything about having an investigation.

Does this stick out to anyone?

[jee]

This was Mr.Finch's first post after the night where there was no roleblock, Day 3. And this was even before SF posted anything about having an investigation.

Does this stick out to anyone?

I would say that he's wrong Jee. After all,

If either of the first two setups are in play, and the situation occurs where the Goon is lynched first, the Roleblocker will still be able to submit both night kills and roleblocks (roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole).

That's in red at the beginning of post 2. But I suppose the roleblocker may not have known that.

I'm not saying he's wrong or right, because he is wrong. I'm asking if it throws up a red flag for anyone else seeing as it was his first post.

He uses his vote to actually Lynch, rather than using it as the multi-purpose weapon it is.

Do you agree with that?

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

I didn't expect it, but depending on the logic it makes sense. Honestly I was concerned that even though I am a future lynch possibility the scum may have wished to lynch me to keep an unexplored view out of the game.

If thats not what you expected, what did you expect?

I'll put in my thoughts as of Day 4 tomorrow.

This please.

[jee]

As for my post about everybody thus far:

Zorblag

- I was leaning extremely toward SF before you replaced him. His overall play was scummy. He tunneled on Elli, whether it was on purpose or not, told us we needed to just vote for him without much discussion, decided to investigate TNM instead of who the town was really after. Now that you replaced him, you have a very town aspect to what you say. I am leaning heavily towards town with you, but you have a lot of experience and could completely be fooling us, especially because of SF being the one you replaced. I don't think I'll ever be 100% sure about what role you are.

Nachomamma08

- Not exactly sure on Nacho, I'm leaning toward town. The whole Night 2 situation just confuses me, but I believe that I blocked the doc. Something interesting I thought about was, Kami-Sami was replaced during Night 1:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1988927

He said if no one was replaced by then, it would be a random. Well the deadline had to be used and Arthur Dent was NK'd and that might be random, might not be. Just something to point out.

Pulidar

- I was conviced Mr.Finch may have been mafia, but not really sure anymore now that Pulidar took his spot. Pulidar seems to be overall town to me, but likes to point out that he is town in alot of posts. Either point out that hes town, or indirectly say something else about the roleblocked still out there. As of now, not really sure about him.

Deer

- Top on my list right now after I went back and reread. I remember why I originally thought he was scum, because of his posts during Day 1 and 2. He always talked as if he was walking on glass. Always tried to be pleasing everyone, and over defending anything that was mentioned. Day 3 he cleaned up and was scum hunting a little more, but whenever I go back and read the beginning again, my suspicion always jumps back to Deer. I also feel that his attacks on Nacho, specifically in post 505 are pretty empty.


Thats all I got right now.

[jee]

Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me

Agreed. That is why I asked him what he expected.

PS good to see some more action.

[jee]

vote Deer

I've only played one other game on this forum, and I was mafia. Just looking at your posts, I can see similarities between the game I played and your posts. This last post was enough for me... Your making cases on things that aren't enough to make cases from. And seeing as both myself and Zorb pointed out already that it was weird for Pulidar to expect himself to die, I feel like that is what you saw to be your opportunity to get suspicion off of you.

[jee]

I have to say. SensFan using the, 'I wouldn't be allowed to play this hard since I'm the IC, and VKR wouldn't let me do that'. It was a dirty thing to say because it was one of the main reasons I laid off on suspecting him.

but good game.

[jee]

Yeah. It took everything I had not to say something because then I'd have had to declare the game abandoned. I would have basically given away Sens alignment by correcting him publicly.

No worries. I'm handling the issue.

Yah, I understand. Kind of lame, because that was the reason I was looking for other people beside him.

Overall, good game, I learned stuff. Got to play a new role, so it was fun