888: X-COM TFTD Mafia: Over!

[Jaime Marcelle]

/confirm

[Jaime Marcelle]

Original Roll String: 1d11

1 11-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

Counting down the list using Leon as 1 and Claude as 11. I do not count.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Vote: Claude Lefevre

[Jaime Marcelle]

How does using a dice avoid responsibility other then any other random vote? It's just as random as anything else.

Also I reccomend everyone get an avatar. It's easier (for me at least, I'm not sure about everyone else) for me to tell everyone apart.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Because basing votes on contrary movie tastes will hold someone accountable for those votes in the future?

But how can I not be held accoutable for a dice roll? I do beleive that I can be accountable for a dice roll.

Many feel that using a dice method to cast your votes is not showing your own responsibility of casting a vote, and man feel, as well, that it is Anti-Town. With that being said, some view it also as policy lynch worthy. What do you think?

Your asking me what I think of a dice roll... When I used a dice roll? To tell you the truth, I don't see why it's so scummy (Well, I can see it as being scummy if it's not in the RVS but you know what I mean). It's just another random vote thats in reality not any more random then any other. In fact, how do you know no one else voted on random.com or something but just wouldn't tell any of us? So no, I do not feel it is anti-town or policy lynch worthy.

Also, how is this question helpful to the town?

The idea is that just because you claim to vote for that reason doesn't mean its all there was to it. There are underlying decisions that scum have to make. ie: Whether to vote for each other or not. When you remove all decision making it removes the point of the RVS. How do you expect the game to move forward if everyone only random voted?

It is near impossible to have a RVS for the whole day unless everyone decided to beforehand. The reason for this is because eventually someone would gain the courage to put a serious vote up and end the RVS on someone that put down a scummy RVS

i personally think dice = a reason to hide your vote reason.

Vote reason? So I have a reason to vote Claude? Um... I'm not sure how you think the voting mechanic works but it is comepletly random. Also, even if I were to have a reason would rolling a dice really be better then voting someone because of a movie or something?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Because basing votes on contrary movie tastes will hold someone accountable for those votes in the future?

But how can I not be held accoutable for a dice roll? I do beleive that I can be accountable for a dice roll.

Many feel that using a dice method to cast your votes is not showing your own responsibility of casting a vote, and man feel, as well, that it is Anti-Town. With that being said, some view it also as policy lynch worthy. What do you think?

Your asking me what I think of a dice roll... When I used a dice roll? To tell you the truth, I don't see why it's so scummy (Well, I can see it as being scummy if it's not in the RVS but you know what I mean). It's just another random vote thats in reality not any more random then any other. In fact, how do you know no one else voted on random.com or something but just wouldn't tell any of us? So no, I do not feel it is anti-town or policy lynch worthy.

Also, how is this question helpful to the town?

The idea is that just because you claim to vote for that reason doesn't mean its all there was to it. There are underlying decisions that scum have to make. ie: Whether to vote for each other or not. When you remove all decision making it removes the point of the RVS. How do you expect the game to move forward if everyone only random voted?

It is near impossible to have a RVS for the whole day unless everyone decided to beforehand. The reason for this is because eventually someone would gain the courage to put a serious vote up and end the RVS on someone that put down a scummy RVS

i personally think dice = a reason to hide your vote reason.

Vote reason? So I have a reason to vote Claude? Um... I'm not sure how you think the voting mechanic works but it is comepletly random. Also, even if I were to have a reason would rolling a dice really be better then voting someone because of a movie or something?

[Jaime Marcelle]

A scummy random stage vote you say? And when all the votes are done randomly, with dice, in thread, which vote would that be? I think you just prove my point for me.

Well I doubt there would be no discussion... Scummy people get voted. Simple as that. And besides, how does this even help the game? Do you see a scenerio where we're all dice voting?

[Jaime Marcelle]

If it's policy lynch worthy? Why wouldn't it be? I see no reason for why it wouldn't be beneficial. That is, asking the question itself.

Unless I am mistaken he asked me: a person who RVed with a dice about what I thought about policy lynches on dice rollers. Now what did you think I would answer?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Well, that depends. In a situation such as so, it is very easy to get a read off of a person by gauging their answer. If you were town, would it matter if it were policy lynch worthy? After all, it is just a question. You answered in a way that makes me look at you more now.

Yes, that is true bt what did you honestly think my answer would be? If you ask a person that dice votes if they should policy lynch dice voters or not, wouldn't the answer be no? Scum or town?

what do you think if i say you guys look scummier if you don't follow my plan compared to the one who vote me?

to all : i was in another game and one of the player suggested the other player vote for himself.

in this case, i want the you guys to vote me..

what do you think if i say you guys scum if don't follow my plan?

How would we be scummier if we do/don't follow your plan?
Also, I would reccomend not saying that kind of stuff like "I was in this one game where" it lets other players know who you are.[/quote]

[Jaime Marcelle]

Since we're using alt. accounts, meta will be useless, unless you seriously do a lot of digging. Pretty much everything will have to come from inside the thread.

He said "I was in this one game where" which gives people a better idea as to who they are.

What you did is as good as self voting, and while I'm not a huge fan of policy lynching I think you deserve it. So you get what you want, and I get to vote a self voter. Win win.

He didn't self vote. He just said "If I self voted and I told you to vote me and you were scummy if you did/didn't what would you do?"

Either way, I am not voting Edward (Well, not yet anyway. Might do it later if he appears scummy)

[Jaime Marcelle]

Leon, I think you need to look at this one part of Igor's post that you seemed to ignore.

LEON. Are you saying that people think they know who is scummy before they first post?

and that every vote has good logical reasons this early in the game?

Thus you are impling that we are all supper cops have esp, and never vote in RV. RVS is to start an early band wagon not to toss real votes on scummers around. However the scum will most likly not vote for one of their buddys, but other then that rvs votes are as good as that.

None of the votes in the RVS are logical or have good reasoning. and also, all random votes are more are less random thus the random part of the random vote. Lets use your example: The reasoning is Player A has no votes. What if he did have votes and someone else didn't? See, random. Who they vote is based on who has votes and who doesn't.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP- Thae last part of my post didn't show up.

No vote in the RVS has a logicay good reason. Also, all votes in the RVS are more or less random. Lets use your example: PlayerA is getting voted because there are no votes on him. Suppose PlayerA DID have votes while Player B didn't. The voter would vote PlayerB, not PlayerA. Since on the RVS stage both players are equally likely of getting voted it is random on who the voter in this example will vote. The vote depends on who has votes and who doesn't.

[Jaime Marcelle]

You know what? Emile is right. This whole discussion about the RVs is pretty much stupid. Let's try and have a useful discussion instead.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Sry I wasn't on much yesterday but I'm really busy so i have to make this post short.

vote Emile Buchard

Sigh... Please explain your votes before you put them on please. Why are you voting stuart? Smells like scum is not a good excuse. I have no idea what the heck you are doing.

Also, I agree with Emile about the meta thingy. Metaing is not really scummy. And while it does help town more then scum the rules say not to so yeah.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I comepletely agree with Tracy. I will probably be voting for Stuart pretty soon because of his random vote out of the RVS and his horrible horrible reasoning. Stuart- How does he "Smell like scum"? However, before I put a (serious) vote on anyone I want to hear more about Edwards plan.

[Jaime Marcelle]

What... The ... hell?

:sighgs at Stuart:

Please prove that my vote is baseless.

Because the reason you are voting them is because they "Smell like scum". You give no reason why they smell like scum or anything. Seriously, if you vote someone give a goddamned reason! Why do they smell like scum?

Please prove that my vote is random/arbitrary.

I cannot prove your vote is random but since you give no reason other then "smells like scum" I am going to have to say it is.

I stand by everything I've said, if you think something I've said was crap logic then you are wrong.

Since your so into this let's do it. Please prove that your reason isn't crap logic.

Seriously though, insted of telling the town to prove they are right. Why don't you prove that we are wrong. Try defending yourself. I think my mind is made up. I am going to

vote: Stuart Whyte

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: Forgot to unvote

Unvote: Claude Lefevre
Vote:Stuart Whyte

[Jaime Marcelle]

Emile- You state all these people who you think are scummy but who do you find the most scummy out of those?

Sure, but a smart townsperson would never defend a weak vote by asking others to prove it is wrong, especially when the vote is so obviously weak.

I agree. If he is a townie he's just hurting us. Town has no reason to not give any reasoning about their already bad vote while scum does. And honestly stewart do you really think you're going to get anywhere by asking people to prove that your vote isn't baseless whether or not you actually have a base or not?

[Jaime Marcelle]

So a couple key points to touch on. You have no way of knowing that my vote is baseless or random/arbitrary. You cant think it all you want, you can even be quite sure of it, and you can vote me because of it, but please dont assert it as a fact </3. Also while we are on it, I directed each of these questions at a different person, in the future please don't answer questions asked of other people before they can.

If you vote isn't baseless or arbitary then tell us what the reason is. Also, I like how you were able to just post without answering ANY questions people asked you. You have been going the whole game without explaining yourself at all. I'm assuming you want us to follow you on your vote don't you? The whole point of a vote is to get others to joing you and lynch the person. If you can't get the town to agree with you emile isn't going to get lynched.

Also, I think my reasons for voting Stuart are pretty obvious and for all you people out there who don't know it's pretty much the same as everybody elses: Bad reasoning, lack of explanations etc.

Not going to admit my logic is bad, but even if it were bad logic isn't a scum tell, its an idoit tell.

It would really help the town if you would just TELL US THE REASON! You are hurting town by not telling us so spill it.

I thought that did a decent job of answering everyones questions but to be clear: My vote is serious, I'd be happy to see him die atm. I have no intention of revealing why.

Stuart is getting increasingly scummy by the moment. The only reason I could think of that you not telling us the reason for your vote is that you are a secret day cop that got a guilty on emile. I doubt this. Why can't you tell us.

So... yeah. I'm happy with my vote on Stuart.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Or explaining votes is anti-town.

No... No it is not. If you can tell me how it is anti-town I will lay off you for the vote but it is not anti-town unless under extreme circumstances. And besides, if the town was to not explain any of their votes how would we get any new veiws and matters. people can't even defend themselves if they don't know what they're being voted for. Emile is not going to get lynched unless they have reasons.

This is fail logic. If you lynch me now then that is 1 more mislynch = it wouldn't be lylo but simply already lost.

We're going to lose if we lynch you? Unless you can prove that you're not scum there is no point to this.

Might get around to it, might not. See how the game goes.

Holy... um, why don't you just tell us? It is anti town to not tell us you know...

@Jamie: looks like you are fishing for Stuart's role in post 109:

That post was just to show him how rediculous it was to not explain his vote. I wasn't trying to rolefish. in fact, I think the only way that could truely be considered rolefishing is if he actually is a secret daycop.

[Jaime Marcelle]

:sighs at Stuart:

Obviously you've read my post due to you posting after me and I still haven't got an answer. My questions for you:

1. Why did you vote Emile other than the reason "Smells like scum"?
2. Why can't/couldn't you explain your vote on Emile?

These are both serious questions and I don't want a "I'll get around to it later maybe" Unless you have a reason not to (Such as RL issues, being busy etc.)

Right now Stuart seems to just be stalling at this point. And I see the point that he could be a jester or something but I'm willing to keep my vote on for a bit longer until I get an answer from him.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I have responded to his question even if I haven't answered it. I want feed back from the previously qouted portion before I go further with it.

what do you want feed back on? Why can't you give me a straight answer?

That's not really fair. I didn't answer his question but what I said was relevant to it. Not all questions should be answered mindlessly.

I'm assuming the bolded part is what you want me to answer isn't it? I do not like that part and I do not know why I didn't comment on it sooner. Sure, let's just talk about what you're giving us especially if what you're not giving us is equally if not more important.

Isn't a jester a town role? Or is it indy?

A jester is a third pary role that wins if they get lynched. It's kind of like the Sarah Palin of the mafa world.

Stuart, all we want is for you to tell us why you're voting emile or at least why you can't tell us. Is that too hard to ask?

[Jaime Marcelle]

I don't even know what your point addressing the bolded part is saying.

If I am correct your statement is that you only want us to use the reasons that you give us to judge you instead of having everyone argue about it. I disagree with this because really, if you're hiding something and we go along with you you just get a free pass.

I hereby agree not to debate the validity of whatever reason Stuart posts for more than a page, but reserve the right to bring it up later in the day if I deem it relevant.

I can settle for this.

But this also brings up a major point I've meaning to mention to you all: Do you want your actual accounts revealed? I personally don't think it has any bearing on the game (and don't just reply to this "Oh, well it's important because we can narrow down who's playing each alt", because that's really against the spirit of the game) so I feel I can leave it up to you. Vote Reveal or Vote Not Reveal, and whatever gets a majority vote, will be enforced for the rest of the game...

Vote: Reveal at end of game

Claude- Is possible softfishing the only reason you have against me?

K, I'm bullet proof.

Ok... I guess that's beleivable. I am willing to unvote once I hear a reason for your vote but until then my vote will have to stay.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: Give me an example of what I'd be hiding? I'm glad you've agreed to the terms, but understand I'm not going to explain the reason behind my vote. At best I'm going to explain why I'm not going to explain the reason behind my vote.

You may be hiding the fact that you have NO reason behind your vote. I have no idea. If you can't tell us you must be hiding SOMETHING. Unless it reveals valuable information I see no reason why you shouldn't. Also, I will be perfectly happy if you tell me why you can't tell the town. (Well, just as long as it makes sense)

@Those who have played X-Com is there some invincible hero? I doubt it.

Maybe it's just a one use thing like if he gets hit once he survives but twice and he dies? I don't know much about X-COM and I haven't gotten around to reading that thingy the mod gave us but I'm assuming there are some people who are stronger then others or something.

I beleive the roleclaim but you have a point. I want to hear what the name is and some flavor so I can beleive it.

[Jaime Marcelle]

flavour = I was trusted with some super secret new armour thats immune to sonic weapons and painted it like everyone else's diving suits.

What I also want is your name thing. For example vanilla townies are able seamen so what is yours. I find it highly unlikely that your name was "bulletproof".

Also, if you can I still want an explanation of at least why you can't tell us why you're voted.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I've pmed the mod some questions. I'm waiting on him for answers. I had initially assumed I was only nk immune, but given the lynch flavour and the wording of my pm I might also be unlynchable(how cool would that be) I doubt it though. When he responds I'll answer. Also, I'm ignoring the question because only 3 people have agreed to my terms, there are 11 in the game, get the number up to 7-8 and I will talk.

Now why would you be unlynchable? With your role you can pretty much just live forever. I'm assuming the role about being immune to sonic weapons was just a mistake on the maods part (assuming your caim is true).

Claude- Please answer my question. Is possible softfishing the only reason you have for FoSing me or is there more out there?

Also in reply to the votecount. Didn't Andrew unvote?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime - Spencer did. He decided to go after Leon for some answers, and Andrew was never on the wagon, because he would have been the hammer vote, and he wasn't ready to do that.

I meant unvoting Orsky/Edward. As of his post 10 Andrew has no vote on anyone unless I missed it yet the vote count says his vote was on Orsky.

[Jaime Marcelle]

:Waves at Claude:

Hey, over here. I still haven't received an answer to my question even though I've asked it twice. Is possible softfishing the only reason you have for FoSing me?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@everyone on my wagon: If I'm lynched and come up town who will you suspect because of it?

I can't really suspect anyone which is I have to admit one of the cons of this lynch. Everyone who WASN'T on the wagon however would gain some townie points with me.

@Everyone: I'd also like to hear from everyone else who they think is scum on my wagon should I be town.

Again, see above. While I can probably look for scum out of the people on the wagon it's going to take some rereading so if you pop town I will reread everyone in iso and look for scummy people. But yes I agree that if you are town there will probably be 1-2 scum on it. I would assume it would be someone that would be like "Eh... I guess I'll vote him but I'd rather stay out of the way for it"

But anyway, I agree. The only way I will unvote Stuart at this point is
a. If someone looks even more scummy 9which seems very close to impossible) or
b.He gives me a VERY VERY good reason for his vote on Emile and why he won't tell us his reasons.

Talking about Stuart has become futile. Lets get up some content about other players, or end the day here, because this case clearly isn't going anywhere.

I agree. I'm going to try and come up with something on other people soon. I'm going to be watching everyone closely until the end of the day to catch anything.

Atm my top scum suspects:

Scum: Gerhard Spencer Emile

I'd like a response from everyone on the matter before my lynch please.

Again, when I hear a reason for it I can talk about it.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Sorry that I wasn't more clear but I think I was misunderstood here. What I meant was: That list is very temporary and could easily change depending on how people answer my question(about who the scum on my wagon are) Its that question that I want a response on. Not commenets about this scum list.

Oh, alright. Then my answer is still the same. I will look into that if you flip town. However, seriously though, do you mind telling us why you can't explain your votes. If you die and flip town we lose all that knoledge. If you were onto something good we will lose that knowledge forever.

So no, I'm not going to answer your question purely for your benefit. I have no more interest in trying to reason with you, as I have been trying extremely hard since the first page. There is no reason for any of us to answer your questions, since you clearly have no intention of telling us the intention behind those questions

You're not going to answer him because he won't answer you? Isn't that kind of hypocritical? Really, you should have a good reason for choosing not to answer other then "Well he won't tell me why he's asking me so i'm not going to answer him!"

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, I don't know if this is allowed or not since the night scene is coming up but I am assuming I can talk until it comes up.

Anyway: some quick thoughts.

1. Why otto why did you hammer! Even if he was scum we could have gotten some info. Anyway, if he flips scum I will put you near the top of my FoS list.
2. Again, if Stuart flips town I will be voting Emile most likely since he seemed to be hiding info and that he kept his vote on all freaking day! Stuart has to know something!

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: forgot this part.

If Stuart does flip scum however, Otto and Emile will both gain some town points for me along with some or most of the people on his wagon.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime- we can talk, there is no night phase remember? There is only a 48 hour twilight in which we can talk but not vote.

I forgot.

Anyway, I think that this whole arguement is just WIFOM. I'm going to be watching Otto however no matter what Stuart flips but overall I doubt we're going to get anywhere by discussing weather or not Otto could be bussing assuming Stuart is scum.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Alright then... that was a shocker. Anyway, I'm going to go back and reread everyone in iso and try and find something. My top two suspects however unless I find something are Emile and Otto. I will post my findings tomorrow probably.

Nowever, that brings me to another question. If Stuart was a bulletproof how would he know that Emile was scum (assuming he is)? I highly doubt that his PM just said "Emile is scum. Get him lynched" So the question is, how accurate was Stuart's vote and how likely is it with this info that Emile is scum?

[Jaime Marcelle]

The actual argument doesn't matter now that Stuart has flipped town, but why did you change your tune in one post? Would Otto have gained town points in your eyes or not?

The only thing I changed was the fact that I would be watching him or not. If Stuart flipped scum he would have gained town points but I would be watching him because like you all said, he could be bussing. But right now he has major scum points sice Stuart was town.

Anyway, my top FoS is Otto followed by Emile and I will more likely than not have another scummy person as my third choice soon (can't do it right now, I'm sortof in a hurry and don't have the time to reread.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok I reread each of these people in iso. The people were Igor, Gerhard, Emile, Claude, and Andrew or the five people on Stuart's bandwagon other then me and Otto.

Anyway, it was pretty hard to come to a conclusion. Each of those five seemed to be attacking Stuart pretty agressively. however, something came to my mind and it might be WIFOM but I'm going to throw it out there.

If Emile is scum and Stuart knows that he's scum somehow wouldn't Emile want to keep Stuart alive just as long as he kept being scummy so that Stuart's secret would just be passed off as idiocy? This all assumes on two things though. One, Emile is to be scum and two, Stuart really did know Emile is scum.

Anyway, out of those five people the person I think is most scummy is either Claude or Andrew. Andrew may have been staying out of the way all like "Well... I think Stuart is scum but I'm going to stay out of the way until the end of the day." which I guess may make sense if he wanted to make sure no one hammered quickly (I'm looking at you Otto)

Claude on the other hand was FoSing me until about his 14th post. Here he comepletely jumped off of me (for then anyway) and onto Stuart. Claude, what made you change your mind from me to Stuart?

Both of thse reasons are both very weak however and I will have my major FoSing on Otto.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Otto... I do agree that you are unlikely to get NKed tonight if you are town but why did you feel the need to claim?

[Jaime Marcelle]

if there is anyone who has a way to confirm his role, that would be great, but this would probably imply that a second PR would have to come out, which would be quite catastrophic at the moment.

The only way I think we can confirm his role is if we have a vig and he agrees to shoot Otto tonight or tomorrow (depending if they sent in their night choice already or not). This would be a bad plan however because 1. They'd have to claim in order to confirm him 2. The vig would have to waste one of his shots and 3. We have to hope that Otto isn't a NK immune scum. If he was he'd be falsely confirmed.

post 303: I don't understand, you are suspecting that Stuart had some hidden power that was not revealed after death? This bothers me a lot, so please explain.

I assume you mean this part.

If Emile is scum and Stuart knows that he's scum somehow wouldn't Emile want to keep Stuart alive just as long as he kept being scummy so that Stuart's secret would just be passed off as idiocy? This all assumes on two things though. One, Emile is to be scum and two, Stuart really did know Emile is scum.

If you reread the end of D1 and I think the beginning of tonight a few people were talking about "Well if Stuart wanted Emile dead so badly what if he somehow knew he was scum" I was joining in on that discussion but if you reread my post is said that it assumes that he does. The post was just in reply to the discussion.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Alright, one alien is dead. This is probably going to change what I think of everyone (I have to look at links between Gerhard and everyone else).

Anyway, what happened here? It would appear that we have either a SK or vig out of us (which I'm not really surprised by) but what I'm wondering is what happened to the scums kill?

Also, to snyone that knows about XCOM (since I don't know to much abot it) are there multiple alien races and if so are they at war with each other or something (if there aren't multiple alien races the kill is probably more likely to be a vig kill then an SK kill).

[Jaime Marcelle]

The beginning flavor text leads me to beleive that he was either scum or an SK. However, I still want to know are there multiple species of aliens?

Also, Gerhard seemed to be a VERY opportunistic scum: voting both Edward and Stuart when they were the most scummy people. He also attacked Orski (Edward's replacement) which leads me to beleive that whoever the replacement is for Orski is town.

Also, looking back I don't think he pointed anyone out as being town. Sure he defended people like Andrew said but that's not enough incriminating evidence for me to go on. Anyway, I'll keep thinking about this but for now I'll keep my vote off anyone.

[Jaime Marcelle]

yes I think I already told you this! he used what the game calls psy powers. He would contrl someone and kill through him. Thats how it works in the game. So he would be considered a mafia sk. I don't think that their is a 3rd party of any sort. Gerard was part of the scum faction. All of the aleins in x-com no matter of race work together never apart. It would help for everybody to actually play a round or two of x-com I have a download site alredy found: http://dosgamer.com/x-com-ufo-defense/, and tftd http://dosgamer.com/x-com-terror-from-the-deep/ you will also need dosbox to run these you can google that or go to: http://www.dosbox.com/download.php?main=1. Play one hour of each (once you get past the learning wall) and then come and ask the town if he was an sk. Try raiding a base in ether game and tell me his role. Go on any ol' mission and tell me if there is an sk.

Thanks! I'll have to try those sometime (I doubt I'll be able to today) but judging from your answer I assume that Gerhard was an scum but the question is... What happened to the scums kill? There is the chance of the bus driver but is there anyone in XCOM that could possibly do that? Meh, I'll just keep this in the back of my head for now.

Now I briefly discuss Jamie's post 303. Proposing that some powers of Stuart, and namely a power allowing him to "know for a fact" that Emile is scum, were kept hidden after his death seems very unlikely to me. Also, it sounds like an argumentation that was constructed "ad hoc" to support an Emile lynch. This is potentially extremely scummy.

Did you read the answer to this? I know how bad the chances are but the whole part of this was a reply to the convo of "What if Stuart knows that Emile is scum. That would explain why he wants to lynch him so much!"

Also, I dun like players who spread their FoS's and state that they do not want to vote, yet.

I was anylizing what we had so far. Right now I am split between Otto, Emile, and Andrew. (mainly Otto and Emile but I'm still deciding). If you want me to put on a vote until I 100% decide I'd be happy too but until then my vote stays off.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I have been following the game with my regular account, but have not been able to commit otherwise due to RL. I have seen whyte get so close to lynch, then evad eit, get close then evade it. I thought he was scummy just like everyone else. Why keep someone around that you know that at one point was super scummy...it will just mess with you at lylo. The kicker also was I couldn't see there being more than one NK-immune PR, but once I saw he was telling the truth after the flip, I felt it was necessary to reveal who I was. You need me at least for a little while longer, if for the very least to help lower your scumpool until lylo. Then at lylo you can decide whether or not to lynch me.

You do remember that whoever was voted the most for the longest gets autolynched at the end of the day if no person was chosen right? Well unless we all decided to change who we wanted to lynch (and at that point it would be a very scummy person) Stuart would still be the lynch.

But now onto the news. I believe I am the reason Gerhard died. I recieved a message saying that somebody tried to use psionic powers on me, only to fail. Either that or vig shot him down before he could be successful.

Emile was also mentioned in my message from the mod, but whether it was for flavour or if it was for the game I don't know.

As NK immune, I have no worries about sharing info.

Something about this just seems out of place to me... So right now you are possibly claiming a NK immune that kills whoever tries to kill you? Look at your role PM and tell us if it says that because I doubt you have that power if it doesn't show up in your PM. Also, what did it say about Emile?

Also Leon, how long is your shower? You've been in there for a day.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I tried to probe emile's mind. In doing so I was attacked by a psionic force. I had the skills to defend myself, but apparantly didn't need to worry, cause the attack failed, and the force was gone before I even had to deal with it. I then forgot about finishing my probe on Emile and went to bed.

YOU CAN PROBE NOW! Are you sure the only power you have is being NK immune. Since when did you get the power to probe people? Why are you even probing emile's mind anyway?

[Jaime Marcelle]

To pre-empt any of you, I am not explaining any more than I have, until day 3.

:Shakes head: You do remember what we said to Stuart don't you? In fact, you were even one of the ones that coted him. Why do you vote someone then turn around and do the same thing later?

I sent a smartass night action to the mod, saying that I'm seeing if I have any special unknown abilities and asked to investigate someone. I was joking. But I got a response in return.

So the PM said you just tried to probe someones mind? It didn't say that you could or anything? I should try this tonight...

@Jamie: invoking page 12, where no1 actually referred to Stuart knowing something about scum-identites as you do in post 303, is no answer at all, at least to me. Do better.

How? I state what I did. That prat of the post was in response to the whole "What if Stuart knew something?" arguement?

I am not NK immune, but I am MC immune. Just replace that into my earlier claim and it's 100% correct. I also did PM the mod trying to cheat the system. I informed him that I was fishing for a possible new role and tried to investigate emile. I got a reply back announcing that I tried to probe his mind, but was attacked by psionic powers in the process. I had the ability to defend myself accordingly, but the powers stopped before I even tried to defend myself. I then was too weary to finish probing and went to bed.

You're scrambling for something the town will beleive Otto... You keep changing stuff. "I'm a NK immune townie!""Now I almost used psionic powers!""Now I'm MC Immune" By the way, does your PM say what mind contrlling is exactly?

Anyway, I see that this (like Stuart) is a scums dream. they can get away with voting Otto with no consequences. And yeah, if Otto is town 1 or 2 scum are on his BW (or will join it by his lynch) but he's just too scummy. So I will

Vote: Otto

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP

My vote just put him at L-1 didn't it? Well since I don't want a quick lynch like yesterday I will

unvote

until we get some more info.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Oh. My. God.

The best we can hope for now is that the SK/vig hits scum again... And that our next lynch is scum...

[Jaime Marcelle]

Well it sounds like at the beginning he was talking about another game where something like this happened but the end result was good... Then I kind of lost him around the reactionary vig. Then he says that someone else killed Gerhard (Since nwhen did ANYONE think that Gerhard commited suicide?) and he's going to wait until the night is over until... Something.

Sorry to jump in, but I think he means a vengeful townie when he says a reactionary vig...

[Jaime Marcelle]

I will w8 untill the day sceen to vote...

You uh... Kind of have to wait until day to vote...

[Jaime Marcelle]

*catches up to Otto's real claim* Okay, so that's it. This explains everything town needs to know - We have a Mafia and a Cult. A Cult member was killed last night.

Um, how do you know this? While Gerhard could be a cultist I feel that it is just as likely that he was scum. Also, would this mean that Gerhard was the cult member since I'm assuming that the cultists just mind control people, not turn them into aliens?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jamie: so you are convinced that a sk hit scum-gerhard and not the other way round (scum hit sk-gerhard). Why?

I'm not convinced and looking back i can see why you would think so. I think that he was just as likely to be a cultist, scum

or SK

sorry for confusing you

Also, it sucks that we lost a cop. Now I really need to reread what Tracy said yesterday (after all, he may have his a guilty)

Anyway, I'll probably post more later about this.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, first of all I have found nothing about Tracey possibly getting a guilty. She seemed mostly to want to lynch Otto yesterday and obviouly she didn't get a guilty on him. Other then that Tracey didn't seem to be hitting anyone TOO hard.

Also, I like how everyone FoSes Emile for not posting content when Leon posted even less content...

FoS: Emile and Leon

[Jaime Marcelle]

I wouldn't mind a leon lynch but emmy has not only not posted content but defended scum.

True... I'll think about this. Right now I'm not sure which one I would choose to vote.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I do not understand how meta-fishing helps scum more than town. It's against the rules, but how is it a scumtell?

It's not. It probably helps town out more then scum. Don't ask me why everyone thought Gerhard was scummy for it.

Anyway, I think the main case on Emile is that he doesn't post much content and that he was defending Gerhard. I don't see however how the defending part was really that bad because really, is everyone right 100% of the time?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Emile can die today, the iso look isn't pretty.

I know that you're probably having problems in real life could you get around to posting a better thing about why you think he should die because your iso look isn't much prettier and this only makes it worse.

[Jaime Marcelle]

post 414: Jamie explain his point of view on the Emile's case. Nothing new. Jamie's alingment will depend on what his FoS will turn out to be. Or perhaps not: he never really instsisted to have someone lynched. I have difficulties reading him.

I haven't decided who I want to lynch yet. I am torn between Leon and Emile. Once I hear more from them I can probably decide who to vote.

@everyone: I would like to collect your thoughts about Igor.

Igor gives me mainly town reads. He's been helping town out in my eyes and his posts usually help out the town. the only thing that I don't like about him is his bad typing skills (no offence) but that's just annoying, not scummy.

[Jaime Marcelle]

IDIOT. (Or scum, I'm not sure yet- but you've been wrong on every issue). Why would you assume it's random? It clearly
isn't.

The point of that was not weather it was random or not. The point behing that post was because of his baseless vote.

How the fuck does that work? Fishing to find out if someone has a role is scummy if he does have it, but not if he doesn't?

Someone wasn't reading my post... I wasn't rolefishing. I never said it wasn't scummy if he didn't have that role, I was using a rediculous role as an example.

NOT EXPLAINING YOUR VOTE DOES NOT MEAN YOU DON'T HAVE A REASON. THERE ARE PLENTIFUL PROTOWN REASONS FOR NOT EXPLAINING THINGS, FOR INSTANCE, YOU WANT TO SEE WHO SEES WHAT YOU SEE. YOU WANT TO SEE IF PEOPLE WILL BLINDLY FOLLOW YOU. PERHAPS YOU WANT TO SEE IF THE VOTEE GIVES THEMSELVES AWAY BY SAYING 'WHY ARE YOU VOTING ME? IS IT ZOR, YOU WANT TO SEE WHO WILL SCUMMILY CLAIM THAT NOT GIVING REASONS IS SCUMMY.

Yet none of the reasons you gave work if he kept his vote on all day with no explanation even when he was at L-1 and would definately die if he didn't...

Anyway, just to point something out: If Edward is scum I can easily see him using this post to protect himself "After rereading I think Stuart is pro-town" can be used to get town points for saying a confirmed townie was acting townish (especially since a lot of people thought he was scummy)

Anyway, I agree with Igor. We should put a vote on someone (even if we don't mean it to stay) so I will

Vote Leon

for posting rare, weak posts.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Jaimee, wow. Fencriding hard, m'boy. Your stance on me is beyond flimsy and you use it ina way that is easy to back out of.

True, but like I hinted, it is mainly a placeholder vote and I don't plan to keep it on for too long until a more scummier person comes along.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Is your reason for voting Leon just his alleged lack of contents?

Pretty much. But the point of my vote is to try and find scummy people. And yes Leon it is easy for me to back out on it...

You're REALLY splitting hairs now. I said you assumed it was 'random.' You're saying I'm wrong because you weren't saying it was 'random' you were saying it was 'baseless.' The two are synonymous- you were accusing him of voting without a reason, no?

The only way it could be considered rolefishing is if he actually was a daycop. That's what you said. Now, clearly a person who is rolefishing doesn't know whether the other player has that role in the first place. My point is that whether or not someone is rolefishing clearly isn't dependent on whether the person being fished (or not) actually has the role that may or may not being fished for.

Oh snap. I guess I wasn't reading my own post. My bad . That was bad logic on my part but still, the main reason of why I was "Rolefishing" was to show him how redicious he was acting.

Well, yeah. But if you're getting attacked over something you're doing that you think is good and protown, it's human nature to dig your heels in over it. The 'fuck you guys, i'm protown, this is protown, and if you're dumb enough to lynch me over it, you get what you deserve' attitude. He was standing on principle. Standing on principle at the expense of risking lynch is townish- he clearly wasn't playing to survive. I don't think it was smart, but it wasn't scummy either.

Here's the thing. He never even statedwhy he couldn't tell us the reason behind the vote. that just confuses people and doesn't contibute anything to the game. While this may have been confirmed as just him not being smart now. It was a very scummy play at the time.

I tend to want to vote edward to get him out of the way. We had some good town players talking about real issues and then we get this joker around. didn't he get replaced out...

I think this is the replacement. Didn't you read the mods latest post?

Also, I'm probably going to reread Emile and Leon in iso sometime in the near future and post what I find.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Edward, I think you need a referesher on what scummy is. Being scummy is something that either a. helps scum more than town or b. hurts town more than scum (Well, there are some conditions that break this but whatev). Stuart fell right under letter b. He hurt town a lot by not telling us what he was thinking and he didn't hurt the scum at all.

@Jaime, I don't think he was acting ridiculously. I think I would have voted without explanation there too. That vote came after a particular post of Emile's that was very scummy (go look it up). The natural reaction would be to think it was in response to that. He had a very good point in that all the people who said he was voting 'without reasons' just because he didn't share them were attacking him with craplogic.

Alright, I guess I can agree with you that Emiles post was scummy but how do you know that that was the reason for his vote? If that post was the main reason he voted Emile don't you think he would tell us that instead of hide it all day? How hard would it be for him for tell us that that post was the reason for voting him. Also, you say that there are plenty of reasons someone would hide their vote (they want to see who would follow them, want to see what their reaction is etc.) yet now you say it is because of this post which has nothing to do with the reasons stated.

Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere by talking about wether Stuart was townie or scummy. Let's get back to the game. Right now I will

unvote

for now until new information comes up.

[Jaime Marcelle]

So that puts Emile at what, L-3 L-2? It would really help if we had a votecount (hint hint)

Also, sorry I can't post much right now. I'm really tired. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[Jaime Marcelle]

If anyone thinks Emile is scum, they should probably take a look at Jamie as well. Jamie has declared Emile one of his top suspects even before Stuart flipped town but he has never voted him. He also defended Emile's lack of activity in iso 50 by pointing out another weak performer, Leon, and defended Emile with guesswork WIFOM in iso 35. Finally, he has done nothing but agree with and defend my top suspect, Igor.

I never voted Emile because there were a lot more better candidates (Stuart, Otto, and Leon) however, I am starting to think emile is more and more scummy. And for your second part. How is disagreeing with you about Igor scummy? If you want me to think Igor is scummy you're going to have to tell me why.

His unique communication skills don't make him scummy, just difficult to literally read. However, I do find him to be one of the scummier players, if not the most. I understand the need to think about what possible roles are out there, but this dude fucking loves to talk about roles, especially a town vig. Igor also supports a Claude lynch because of...what? Claude mentioned his name once? Igor is cool with lynching Edward to get him out of the way. and he apparently wouldn't mind a lynch of either Emile or Leon as well. Um, being ok with lynching half of the remaining players for no real reasons screams scummy.

Alright, fair enough. I'm still not convinced that Igor is scum though and I think Emile or Leon would be a lot better.

Edward if I ping emmy would that gain town points or scum points. If she flips scum I was the one who voted first and who started this. I just want you to know that. One thing that is true about edward his his middle of the pack mafians. I have noted the same. I started this wagon thus I must be town! yay! FYI sometimes scum make long posts about the d-1 stuff that we already know. But as of now edward does not need to be lynched as our d-3 choice. We have little info and if we assume that he would have played scummy we would just make asses of ourselves. But remeber when emmy flips scum I was the one who started this. If she flips town feel free to lynch me.

Sigh. What was the point of this post? Andrew was correct, this does seem like scum bussing his partner.

[Jaime Marcelle]

The reason I posted my post was not to look scummy it was to show that edward was full of crap logic. Acording to him because I was first to vote I should be town. I had voted in the middle of all other votes. So this just goes to show that edwards point was just a nice smelly cow pie. You can still lynch me if you want for trying to make this point. I will go out clean so at this point you can lynch me or just see the real point of my last post. I still think emmy is a good lynch today.

This is exactly the opposite of what you said in your last post...

@Jamie: please, answer me. How is or was Leon a better candidate than Emile? How is he now better than Igor?

I do not think that Leon is a better lynch then Emile. I think they are about equal. If you look back at Leon's iso you can see that he has posted nothing much that was new to the convo which is very scummy. As for Igor, I did not think he was very scummy... Until now. He has been contradicting himself like hell for a while (alright, i'm exaggerating a bit but you get the idea) and is making an obvious attempt at making an attempt to look more townie. Riht now I would say that they are all about equal (Emile leading by a bit).

[Jaime Marcelle]

I never voted Emile because there were a lot more better candidates (Stuart, Otto, and Leon)

Blargh. i should've reread my post to make sure it made sence. What i meant by that was that by the beginning of today Leon was a better choice however, you all have convinced me otherwise and Igor, well he did that for all of you.

Jaime do you know how a gambit works? I did this to try to catch ed in a spot to see how he reacted. Lets look at it from my shoes right now.

1: I am scum. I lost it and posted shit. I get lynched and I flip scum. Because I posted shit on emmy she gets lynched and mostlikly flips scum. At that point town wins or we are down to 1 mafia. This is because of the size of the game. Thus if I am scum I just lost my team the game.

2: I am not scum. I flip vanila town. How would you deal with that? I must have really made that gambit and I was telling the truth about it all. You are down one more town. 2-3 more scum on the loose and you mis-lynched for the 3rd time in a row. It will give you some I dea about who is scum because they will mostlikly be on my lynch.

3: I get lynched. I flip power role. Whoops that one more power role gone same thing will happen as above.

4: I get lynched. I flip cop... now here is where you guys might come out on top. I pinged emmy. I said that she is worth a lynch. Here you will lynch emmy and she will flip scum. This is because if i'm the cop I would have not given you a mis-lead.

5: you don't lynch me. You lynch emmy she flips scum. He tells the truth! I get nked next turn because the scum will think I am the cop. OR I get lynched next day because I killed my partner!

6: You don't lynch. You lynch emmy she flips town. HOLY SHIT AM I IN FOR IT. I GET LYNCHED.

Thus all of this leads me to be telling you the truth. If I was scum I would have just trashed my teams game. I am not stupid I just made a gambbit to see if we got anther stu on our hands. He does have some thread of logic in him un-like stu. So it is up to you to lynch me or not.

Claude, he is sorta right. I did not see his post thus I can't confirm if he did in fact ping the scum player. If he did in fact do that I think he needs the credit that is due him. Right now keep in mind that I didn't see his post at all.

I don't even know how to respond... I totally agree with Leon. You're grasping for something to keep you alive now.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, first of all, I'm sorry for not posting earlier but I've been very busy lately so don't expect me to post again until tomorrow afternoon.

I AM TELLING THE TRUTH, when I go out you will be down one more town.

Anyone can say that. if you don't want us to vote you you're going to have to tell us why we shouldn't vote you. We have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth or not.

Just because Jaime said at one point that he found Leon scummier than Emile does not mean that his feelings on the two players can't ever change.

Andrew hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I've been meaning to say (sorry again if I wasn't clear)

[Jaime Marcelle]

2. The 'I am town, you will be sorry if you lynch me' thing doesn't normally impress me any, but... I dunno, I'm getting a sense of frustration off Igor that normally comes from townies who think they're being misrepresented. I mean, he did misrepresent my position totally, but that might just be an issue of reading comprehension/ misunderstanding it than deliberately strawmanning.

This is incorrect. Saying "I am town and you will lose if you lynch me" is anti-town. it is used to appeal to peoples fear like "Omg, what if he really is town". At best this is a null-tell.

Can you explain a bit more about this 'gambit' you pulled? What precisely was the gambit, what reaction did you expect, and what would this have told you about anyone's alignment?

I agree. I don't think i saw any gambit.

[Jaime Marcelle]

It was not so much a gambit as a test of ed's logic. I was making a big shit over the fact that I vote emmy first to see if I would gain town pts from ed. He however does have a logical statment regarding the midlle mafian.

This was a horrible gambit. Did you expect the town to beleive it because I sure don't. It looks more that your just trying to get everyone to lay off you scot free instead of actually making a gambit. I will wait to hear what Emile and Leon have to say about this (they were after all my other top two choices) before making a vote.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: I screwed up with the tags. The point not in quotes was a quote from Igor while the part in quotes is what I posted.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I actually did vote for you before your so-called gambit. The basic reasons were that you spent a lot of time talking about roles, especially townie ones, and that you seemed ok with voting lots of different people for very minor reasons. Lynch Edward because he's a joker? Lynch Claude because he said you were an example of misusing Gerhard's metafishing? Lynch Leon for...oh wait, no reason ever given for that suspicion. Even your reasons for voting Emile have been pretty vague and weak.

My reasons are more or less pretty much the same as this. I started to see them as Andrew started to point them out. That said, I would still rather wait until I hear from Emile and Leon before I vote.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I still want to hear from Leon about stuff other then "I'm fine with an Igor lynch". Why are you fine with it? What are your thoughts about the game? etc.

He's been wishy-washy the whole game. When people suspect Stuart, he votes Stuart, when people suspect Leon, he votes Leon, when people suspect me, he makes sure to be the first person to vote for me the next day so he can say he wasn't being wishy-washy.

You want to know what the funny thing about this is? You've only made three votes this entire game in order they are: Stuart, Otto, and Igor... The same three people that everyone wanted to vote. Exactly what you're saying here applies to you and yet you try and get evryone off of you and get Igor lynched so you could survive. I think i've made up my mind here.

Vote Emile

I beleive that puts you at L-2. What do you have to say?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@andrew, yes you are right I do want to lynch alot of people (or at least it seems that way). I was right about gerhard... as for stu almost everyone voted him. Same with otto. Remeber that the lynch otto was for my logic test thing. And the leon was never taken to me as a real fos.

I do not like the beginning part of this post. The part about Gerhard is ok I guess but if you start to use it as a defensive statement to keep you from getting lynched then we'll have problems. And the Stuart part... Yeah. A good defence about why you voted Stuart is NOT "Oh, everyone voted him so it was ok for me to". Again if you start to use it as a defense I will not hesitate to lynch you.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: For got a part.

I will not lynch you if someone acts more scummy or if you are beginning to look more like town to me. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I would like everyone else voting Emile (or for that matter, Igor) to answer this: Who is your best guess for that player's partner?

I wouldn't know. From what i've seen he hasn't been saying anyone else is solidly town (the best I think he's said was that some people were leaning town) and I don't think there's anyone that thinks he's town.

You are assuming that you are town yourself, something that I highly doubt. Also, Stuart was anti-town regardless of his alignment, I'm sure nearly everyone here can agree on that. Otto suicided. You can't really say that "I've only voted for town players. You saying you voted for Gehard doesn't mean anything except that you bussed him and are trying to get the credit for it now.

You comepletely avoid one of the points of that statement (and the main one of mine). What is the point of voting someone who is doing something scummy when you've done the exact same thing? One of the cases that you're voting Igor is that he jumps on a lot of people when a lot of others think they were scummy and as I've said before you've done the exact same thing.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I am here now! And the first thing I'd like to do is KILL OUR MOD for picking THIS layout. What the hell malt?

Unvote, Vote malt

That said, I'll probably read the game tomorrow and find the scum for you.

Ok so I'm tired and it just might be the tiredness talking but this might be a really stupid question. Of which layout are you speaking of?

Also, we really need some more activity around here. It was more then 24 hrs since my last post and only Spencer has talked since then.

[Jaime Marcelle]

and @ claude... when I do flip vanilla town what will you do?

When you do? Really? If you do would be a much better choice of words.

OH. MY. GOD.

Is this seriously all, or even the main thing, you look for when looking for partners?

No, I look for connections of every sort. If he FoSes someone a long time but never votes them, a lot of protection on someone, possible bussing etc. However, that was just a small overveiw of what I thought. I have not found out any possible scumbuddys however, if he dies and flips scum then I will read into it closer.

[Jaime Marcelle]

As far as my "perfect record" I've only voted for two townies. TWO! Now, if you know anything about probabilities then you know that the chance of a townie voting for two townies back-to-back is pretty probable. You can't extrapolate all kinds of crazy allegations over such a small sample size.

The point is not that you've voted two townies but you've also just gone with pretty much who everyone voted for the entire game. People vote for stuart so do you. People vote for Otto, so do you! People vote for Igor, guess who else does, you! This may still be a small sample size but you have also added barely anything to the convo if at all throughout most of the game, especially once people start suspecting you.

[Jaime Marcelle]

So when I do flip toen (I swear to god I will) Then you would be the first to be lynched.

What makes you so sure about this? I'd still probably vote Emile over Claude even if you flip town. In fact, that whole post of yours just seems like a final attempt to not get lynched by trying to scare claude off of you.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I still dislike Jaime, Igor looks a bit better. Still not a whole lot, so I'm leaving my vote there.

I never have liked Emile, so I wouldn't be sad to see him go today.

You are correct. That was a VERY quick hit. You're leaving out a lot of important things (as usual -_-). What new things have you seen from Emile and me that you don't like? What makes you think that Igor is beginning to look better?

Anyway, i have failed to see a real defence of himself from Emile. All i've seen from him recently (and really for the whole game) was just attacking other people and even when he did it was mostly just restating what everyone else said.

[Jaime Marcelle]

So leon, if I get lynched and flip town then you would want to lynch emmy and jaime. I would like to tell all of you that when I flip town jaime and emmy were the two bigest supporters of my lynch.

I disagree with you. Wouldn't the people that support your lynch most... Actually be voting to lynch you?

And @jaime if I was scum I would have no need to role fish (even if I didn't). I would already know that you were town, scum, etc.

Alright, nice to know that your talking to me... About something I've never brought up. And yes, you would have need to rolefish. The only thing better then a scum that knows what faction everyone belongs to (which they do) is one that knows what everyone is. If scum knew who was a cop or doc vs who was a nilla or a BP wouldn't that be better for them?

[Jaime Marcelle]

No where I am at this point jaime. I am facing a lynch right now. If I were scum the least thing I would care about would be if you are doc or cop.

Scum would care... If scum can kill a major power role like a cop or a doc it would help them a lot. Even if you do die scum can easily see what you found out if you rolefished well enough.

also Re-read what leon said you seemed not to grasp the context.

She still thinks I'm scummy. She thinks you're doing better but still wants to lynch you. She wouldn't mind an Emile lynch. What else is there to grasp?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Anyway, Emile is at L-1 if I'm not mistaken and has NOTHING to say about it. This is definately interesting (may not be very scummy if at all but interesting none the less)

Last time I checked you were worried because people whoever their faction are on your wagon.

I would probably be worring about people being on my wagon if I was town OR scum. I don't know why you're not though. Care to answer?

[Jaime Marcelle]

I'm beginning to get a little sucpicious of Claude for hammering before we even got a claim out of Emile. Anyway, if I see that Emile flips town I will definately be voting Igor while if he flips scum I'll probably vote Leon (maybe Claude. I dunno. But still, probably Leon).

[Jaime Marcelle]

Well we know that either Gerhard or Emile isn't scum and is another third party (from the flavor it looks like it's Emile that was the scum assuming that we don't have 2 scum factions). I'm actually thinking that Gerhard was a cultist. The whole mind controlling thing just seems culty to me. Oh well, enough of that for now. Anyway, like I said, I'm probably going to be focusing more on Leon tomorrow.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to let evryone know I will not be posting tomorrow for Christmas (thought that would be pretty obvious but just in case...)

[Jaime Marcelle]

OK, I'm back. Leon, why do you still feel the need to point out things like "I was right about Igor"? -_-

[Jaime Marcelle]

Jaime Marcelle wrote:
OK, I'm back. Leon Igor, why do you still feel the need to point out things like "I was right about Igor Emile"? -_-


I think that's what you meant to say.

Yep.

Anyway, why would scum want to kill Igor? I know that he was right about Emile and all (like he said so many times ) but I have seen nothing else that would make scum want to kill him. there are a lot better choices. Anyway, that doesn't matter so much right now.

[Jaime Marcelle]

With six alive, i would like people to comment on their perception of the benefits and drawbacks of no-lynching. I will do a re-read focussing on Emile's interactions later.

I actually think that not lynching would be the best course of action today. Assuming we have a normal sized mafia (Which is 3 in 12 player games) and one is dead (it doesn't matter if the scum is gerhard or Emile although I'm thinking Emile) and no SK (still along the lines that the other was a SK or that we didn't have a SK to begin with) if we lynch wrong then we lose. From the way I see it, we are in a MYLO situation and should not lynch. Of course, this would all be wrong if something wonky did happen such as there being 2 scum groups and somehow there was only 1 kill every night like Edward described. but please, this should be common sense but I can't stress this enough. If we do end up not lynching and there is a vig or something among us please, PLEASE for the love of god don't shoot.

Anyway, before I vote I want to hear from everyone else first.

[Jaime Marcelle]

This bothers me a little bit. Speculation over NKs gets us nowhere and this seems like an attempt to appear town without actually doing anything pro-town.

Which is why I said "Anyway, that doesn't matter so much right now"

As far as a no lynch goes, I guess that's our smartest choice of action. I'm a little concerned that we could be wrong about the # of scum remaining, but I'm open to hear what others have to say on the subject.

I agree. The number of scum is really the major thing that might stop us from voting to not lynch. I do think that there are probably only 3 scum however (as is the norm). But think about it, it would be a little maf sided if there was another scum AND a SK or whatever Gerhard was. Anyway, unless anyone has an objection (and tells us a good reason) to lynch someone I will be voting to no lynch tomorrow.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Like Edward, I am beginning to look at Leon and Claude more (if we were to lynch right now I would prefer leon but w/e). I'm actually beginning to think they may be a scumteam. If we look at the interactions between the two I see that Claude has been softly FoSing Leon for the whole game it seems. On D1 he was accussing Leon of playing it safe and appeared to be soft FoSing him for almost the whole day. On D2 he didn't say much if anything about Leon and on D3 things get interesting. Again he says he FoSes Leon however, heres the thing. He never does anything about it. Never a vote (with the exception of the RVS vote), never a signal he's going to vote, never a signal that he wants Leon lynched etc. And the latest thing he said about Leon was that he's "prolly not scum"

@Claude- Three questions for you: How did you feel about Leon on d2?
How do you feel about Leon now?
What made you change your mind from FoSing him to thinking he's "prolly not scum"?

Looking at Leon's iso to see connections is a little harder. In fact, he only mentioned Claude twice. First, Leon says that Claude is acting a little off and he thinks that he might be scum after his latest post. Next, he says he's liking Claude, no explaination why...

Leon- Where did you begin to change your mind about Claude?
How do you feel about Claude now?
When you said that you were liking claude, why?

[Jaime Marcelle]

The second carries to the third. The reason that works is, is well because you are my major suspect. Gut never liked you. Ever.

The reason you were beginning to like Claude was because I was your main suspect?

I do not know how I feel about Leon, he is not posting much content. I said he was prolly town because he is your opponent and I still got the feeling that you may be scum (plus, your case on him yesterday was ridiculously thin, and still you insisted).

This seems kind of flimsy. This is not what you have been saying. Wouldn't it be better if you had said. "Leon is prolly town if Jaime is scum"?

Also, to all- If we lynched (or somehow a vig or something killed) Claude and he flipped scum what would you do?
Same thing with Leon, if he flipped scum what would you do?
What would you do if they flipped town?
What if I died and flipped town/scum?

Just something to keep convo going since I realized we're almost losing it.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@ Jaime - Yeah, it would be a little maf sided with 3 scum and an SK, but it's still a possibility, no? If we're wrong about the 3 of scum and no-lynch and the scum have a successful NK, the game is over. That seems like a huge risk to be taking.

Even if there were 3 scum and a SK I still think we'd only have 2 scum alive right now. Now let's think about this. If we assume that Emile was scum (which he probably was) then we have 2 scum and a SK. However, Gerhard is also dead and since we know that their not on the same team he must be the sK or another 3rd party role. Now it would be redicuously town sided if we had 3 scum, a SK, and another 3rd party (such as a cult or something as that seems to be the most likely thing that Gerhard was other then a SK from my PoV) so I doubt that.

Dear Jaime, is it a coincidence that Igor was killed a little after and flipped town? Or perhaps you are scum and you knew he was gonna die, you thought twilight was already over and you posted this question before realizing that Igor's alignment was still unknown to us?

Read what you're saying. It's almost impossible for the second to be true. Think about it. If I was scum and knew Igor was going to die then I must have known he was a townie (since I know he's not maf). Now why would I ask Leon why he needs to say he was right if he was wrong about Igor? In fact, Leon never even says anything like "I was right about Igor" in the first place so why would I purposfully ask him why he said it? Also, look at the post made by Igor right before mine. it is kind of obvious I meant to ask Igor so even if I just messed up on the first part putting Leon instead of Igor) why would i ask Igor (a dead person) why he still needs to point out that he was right about himself? This is horrible, horrible logic.

[Jaime Marcelle]

You seem to be still convinced that at the time you posted Igor was already dead, which he wasn't (unless you sent his killing).

I don't see it. Care to explain?

Also, excessive reaction to such a ridiculous attack.

The reason for the excessiveness was to show you how rediculous it really was. Also, I'm not so sure about this whole "trap". It just seems a little fishy. I'm beginning to think it's just scum trying to pass their bad logic off.

Moreover, I never voted Leon, nor did I include him in my top FoS's (I only mentioned him as #5 in a list, explaining that I did it cuz someone else was FoSing him, and namely Jaime). Why are you trying to alter reality?

There's a reason I stopped talking about that in the last post and that was because when I reread through more carefully I saw that you were right. The "I agree with this 100%" part really threw me off.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Igor was not a dead person when you posted, and this is either a sign of confusion (nervous scum?) or a new and more interesting lapsus.

Or it could have been me forgetting that Igor wasn't dead at the time of the post. Actually, this (again) is not scummy because why would scum post that on purpose if they remembered Igor was dead. Again, this is in no way scummy and again, it is horrible, crappy, logic.

Finally, I do not see how my trap was fishy. You can say it was stupid, pointless, even scummy if you think so, but fishy??? explain the adjective, please.

Think about it. You post horrible, crap logic and I reveal it. Now, if you were scum and you realized how bad the logic was you would want to try and pass it off to get the suspicion from it off of you, right? A very easy way to do this would be just to say "I knew it was bad logic. I just wanted to trap you." In this case, fishy means exactly what it says in the dictionary (outside of "Like a fish in form, smell, taste, or the like" since I am assuming bad logic and traps doesn't taste like fish). In this case fishy means questionable, improbable, unlikely, suspicious, etc.

I would like to know everybody's opinion on Jaime and Spencer. The former is my FoS, as you all know, and the latter has posted so little content that I have almost no idea what I think about him.

You all know what I think about me. i think I am a really awesome, sexy, townie (etc.) person. Spencer on the other hand I'm not to sure about. The origonal Spencer posted good posts even though he was actively lurking occasionaly. His replacement posted very few posts (not enough to get a good read on him) and then he just dropped off the face of the Earth. Also, I don't vote people on lurking alone so I get an overall neutral read on him.

I would like Leon to explain what he thinks of Edward and what he thinks of me.

Also, can you do that in detail. Just saying "Overall I think he's town" or even "I think he's scum because he's backtracking" isn't good enough for me. Please tell me why you think the things about them, what makes them scummier or less scummier then other people, and most importantly, GIVE EXAMPLES!

I would have expected more questions about my hammer, I would have expected to have a hard time explaining that I wanted to vote before deadline and so on, but almost nothing happened. I have the unpleasant feeling that scum is not attacking me because my behavior is somehow helping them, which forces me to keep my eyes open wide...

I'm not complaining, the deadline was coming up (granted it was coming up when Otto hammered Stuart too) but the thing that makes yours differant then Otto's was that you hammered scum so yes it could have been a bus but now I'm going to leave the hammer alone unless it becomes important later on.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Leon, a few questions for you:

If I die and flip scum you would you go after?
If I die and flip town who would you go after?
If you couldn't go after me right now (for whatever reason) who would you go after?

I ask there since you haven't really talked about other people that you thought were being scummy. Other then me you've talked about Edward briefly and that's about it.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Leon, as much as I may share your feelings about Jaime, this post is not even close to answering what I asked you. I asked you to explain what you think about Edward and about me, and Jaime asked you to be detailed and accurate in your answer.

I see that too. It appears to me that Leon is purposefully avoiding the question. Leon's last post had NOTHING to do with you or Edward and I want to know Leon, why? Why didn't you answer the question?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: you need to ebwop, u r not quoting Leon, but me.

Thx for pointing that out. I was quoting Edward and not Leon.

For the time being I have to notice that not only Leon's post did not answer any of our questions, but it also failed in providing any solid reason for his opinion about Jaime: scum or dumb due to lack of outstanding pro-town action is a label that could easily apply to most of the active players, except Edward (cuz he replaced late in the game).

Looking back, this is rue. Especially since I (and I think someone else a different time. I can't remember who) told him that he needs to provide more examples and explainations.

Leon- Can you tell me why I am either "Dumb or scum" with examples and explainations. Also, I would like you to provide a breif summary about why you think I'm scummy. Also, please let me know what the main point is behind it is (if there is one).

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, this might take a while...

Post 59: Yeah... I don't remember exactly what I was thinking then but I guess that I didn't really know what to discuss. I guess I was just waiting until someone else started the discussion.

Post 78: I'm not going to put a vote on someone just because they voted with no explaination (as that was the only thing against him at that point). It was the continued refusal and other general scumminess that made me eventually vote him.

Post 83: Yep, I (almost) voted town. Can't argue with you about that. What i am wondering though is what does Emiles flip have to do with this?

87: The reason for the vote was again his refusal to explain his vote, his lack of defense etc.

95: I never said "If he's a townie he needs to die". I said if he was a townie he's really hurting town and hurting town is scummy.

127: Not explaining votes is anti-town because it helps out scum (usually) and doesn't help town at all. (I guess under extreme circumstances it would be townish or at least null but from what I can tell it's still scummy). Also, again, yes, of course I was fishing because I thought he was a secret daycop -_- And you don't like my condecending tone? How is a tone scummy? I agree that sometimes I do have a condecending tone but that's just me, my personality. (and besides, being condecending is fun )

177: I was willing to beleive that he was a bp. That does not mean that he's auto clear in my book. If he could prove to me that he was townish I would be willing to beleive he was a bp (at least for then anyway).

251: Because him hiding his reasons was a big part of why I was voting him. If he could tell me why he voted with no explaination (and if it made sense of course) I would be happier. Also, the me beleiving his claim thing was talked about earlier.

269: What does this post have to do with me? Where's the wikitell? I don't see gloating. I'm confused.

303: I backtrack from Emile because the only thing I had on him was that Stuart could have had some kind of info on him which seemed very unlikely from his flip. Also, talk to all he other people who put Otto above Emile. The things on Otto greatly outweighed the things on Stuart.

319: This lies in my lack of knoledge of XCOM. i saw the alieness of his flip and thought to myself "The intro flavor text said the scum were aliens that means Gerhard must be scum!" I had no idea at the time that there were multiple alien races (well, I didn't think there weren't. I was unsure) or even if there were i didn't know that they were (supposedly) going against each other.

378: In a normal mafia game there are 3 scum. I was (and still am) this is an avarage game.

389: See before.

404: I was not going to vote them just because of low content (until later when Igor suggested we all vote and I decided just to put a placeholder vote).

416: i was not protecting Emile. I was just saying Leon was worse then Emile.

419: kay

427: 1. Yes Edward was right about Emile 2. I was not discrediting Edward I was defending myself (except for where I stated the possibility that hecould just be using his post to protect himself). 3. Nowhere in this post have I attacked OR defended Emile.

430: Like I said, placeholder vote. I had no intentions of keeping my vote on Leon if he was about to be lynched unless he started to appear scummier.

439: I was acting obviously anti-town and I was possibly hurting the town. Now, before you say "He just admited he was acting anti-town and so he acted more townie to get suspicion off of him!" Hear me out. Assuming I am town, why would I purposefully hurt the town with my vote on Leon?

454: I don't see it.

493: kay

548: Again, what does this post have to do with me? Yes, I see it as gloating. But still, if Igor was kept alive at that point it would seem that he would be tomorrows lynch (assuming we would not lynch today). Which brings me to my next point:

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Also, since it a huge wall of text it is very easy for me to have skipped over something so Spencer: if there is anything i missed that you want me to respond to please feel free to tell me

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: post 579; 584: seriously, do u misquote on purpose? cause it is pretty frequent now... 2 of 3 quotes are mistakenly attributed, and the ebwop is wrong, too... it just makes it a little hard to understand your posts, man

Sorry Again, in post 584 I meant to say that I menat to quote Claude and not Leon. (I think that's right. I reread it 5 times to make sure )

[Jaime Marcelle]

Blargh, I don't really want to respond to another wall again XD. Anyway, I just skimmed through and picked out a few points that I thought were the more important ones so of course please tell me if you want me to respond to someting else.

177: Again, I did not think he was town. There is a very big differance between something that is beleivable and actually beleiving it. Stuart claimed bp. I thought that it was a beleivable claim (meaning that it's not some weird thing he probably made up like a secret daycop) but I was not willing to beleive it until he could prove me otherwise. I know that was a very bad post after looking back again and that it does look like a fencesit but whatev, there's nothing I can do about it now.

319: Flip color? Really? This is a really bad point. Color does not tell someone what faction they belonged to. Mods can use any color they fucking want. For example, If someone died and it said "Hypothetical person (Cop)" in red (as that seems to be the most used scum color) would you think he was scum or a townie? What most people look at (at least me anyway) is thae flavor text and the flip name.

404: Which is why I put the placeholder vote on Leon. I also look for overall scumminess, not just one scummy thing that they do. Of course if that one scummy thing is big enough I will look at them closely (which I did for Leon and Emile at that point) or vote them if it is rediculously scummy.

430: This is Leons post.

439: I took my vote off because obviously I wasn't helping out the town with it at all and I was possibly hurting the town. Now why would a townie purposefully hurt the town? (Also, this is overall just a reworded summary of what I said in my response because I can't think of any other way to explain it better. If you still don't understand I'm sure I could think of something).

With that gumption, I will claim. I am a Vanilla Townie. I do not remember if that is the exact name of it or not as I do not have my role PM on this account. So I cannot refer to it. Anyways, Vote: Jaime

Two things.

1. Why do you feel the need to claim?
2. If there are 3 scum then we're at lylo and it would be smarter to not lynch today right? Or do you think that there are 3 scum alive now?

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

... Really? Now THIS is obviosly something someone can back out on...

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

Your PM says that your a "Merely avarage aquanaut"?

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: Ok I missed part of my last post. This is really what it should have looked like.

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

... Really? And you say I leave area to backout?

Referred to my role PM now, and it was Merely Average Aquanaut.

Did your role PM say you were a "Merely avarage aquanaut" or what because the whole "Merely" thing just seems out of place.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: Could you please elaborate on why you thought the word 'merely' looked out of place?

It's just something I wouldn't expect to hear in a rolename. Oh well, it doesn't look like he has that in his roleclaim (unless Leon wants to say otherwise) so w/e.

Smart, because it narrows down the lynch. I REFUSE A NO LYNCH TODAY!

It is not smart because everyone except you wants a NL (I think) which means it will probably BE a NL and like Edward said, you do NOT want to claim leading up to a NL.

NO NO LYNCH UNTIL THE DAY ENDS. We can scum hunt up until then. Geezus.

Did anyone say they wanted to no lynch now and not wait for the end of the day?

Finally, there is no way I can see Edward and Leon being scum together unless they're supah-bussing.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Also, essentially Jaime only keeps parroting the one person who thinks he's town. Edward. It's like a love story, Jaime's his Bella! <3

How can you say I keep parroting him if the only thing I mentioned recently was when I said "Like Edward I am beginning to look at Leon and Claude more" (which i guess could be parroting but still, only one time isn't scummy...) saying the only person you've talked about other then me is Edward (which isn't parroting) saying that one of your posts didn't even answer what was asked of you about your veiws on Claude and Edward (again, not parroting) A wrong EBWOP (mistakes are not parroting) saying how I was not discrediting Edward in response to a statement said by Spencer (not parroting since it was asked of me) I time where I truthfully did parrot Edward during where i said you shouldn't claim while leading up to a NL (again, not a large enough sample to say I repeatedly do it though) And finally saying I do not see you and Edward being together on a scumteam (which, finally, is not parroting)

Finally, I will

Vote: No one

because I might forget later in the day and everything (I only remember when it's brought up in chat) however, if we are close to it actually being a NL I will unvote until the end of the day.

I'm counting that as an Unvote. If you meant a No Lynch, just Vote:No Lynch.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: Forgot a part (again )

Also, essentially Jaime only keeps parroting the one person who thinks he's town. Edward. It's like a love story, Jaime's his Bella! <3

Also, here there is another blatent mistake. Edward is not "the one person I think is town". I am also getting town vibes from Andrew and (very) slight town reads on Spencer due to his burst of protown (although although sometimes bad/biased) activities.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Blargh, sorry for the triple post but i was typing when this came up.

I'm counting that as an Unvote. If you meant a No Lynch, just Vote:No Lynch.

I did mean a no lynch.

Vote: No lynch

The reason I said I was going to unvote was if it was close to a no lynch and it wasn't close to the end of the day

[Jaime Marcelle]

You just like confirmed you were scum to me with that move.

How?

Also, you misunderstood me, Edward is the only person who thinks you are town.

whoops Still, my point still stands.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@ Jaime - Could you please respond to my point in p. 611 about you pointing out the obvious in a possible attempt to simply appear pro-town. Do you think that that's a fair assessment?

Sure

While i do agree it could be considered scummy and something scum would use, I personally don't think it should be considered scummy unless you have more to go off on. From my point of veiw, just one time is not enough to build a solid case on it.

It's not gambling if it's a sure thing.

Explain how it is a "sure thing". It is not sure unless you know 100% that I am scum (since thats what you're saying). However, you cannot say I 100% have to be scum unless you have some way of proving it. Explain how you 100% know I'm scum and THEN you can safely vote me, otherwise you are risking the town.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Fine, have it your way. I'm 100% though, there's no way he's not.

If you want people to beleive you that I'm 100% scum you have to give proof. When you don't you are doing 2 things.

1. You are preventing town from lynching scum (assuming I am)
2. You are preventing me from defending myself/giving an explanation

is deadline really so close?

Deadline in on jan 14 (in one week) so we're not

that

close but we're getting there. Anyway, i reccomend that no one else vote (for right now) until deadline gets closer. If anyone does vote however, i will not hesitate to unvote.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Cleverly timed bus vote is all I can pretty much say.

This... This is IT? THIS is the reason you're "100% sure" I'm scum. Sigh. Anyway, I really don't feel like reading through another wall (I'm bored ok?) So if you (Spencer) yould direct me to the places you want me to respond to I'd be more than happy to, I just don't feel like going through one of these again

[Jaime Marcelle]

No, Jaime, my gut tells me you're 100% scum.

Sorry to tell you this but... your gut is wrong. Even supposing I am scumthere is no way right now that I am 100% scum. Also, I REALLY don't like how you're basing your vote mainly on your gut. This is extremely scummy.

Stuart was right about Emile and he may have been a day-cop

I beleive stuart was a bp...

Odd are, one of Jaime or Leon is scum.

This is one of the flaws of the plan. Unles you're absolutely sure that me and Leon are on opposite teams then we can't safely carry out this plan. I've seen many times where a townie got lynched just because "Well, since they disagree with each other so much they can't possibly be on the same team" where in reality, the town tends to go at each others throats all the time.

The other flaw is, like Leon said, if we lynch wrong we lose. Since we have to assume the worst we are at mylo today and we will be at lylo tomorrow (unless somehow one of the scum dies tonight) meaning that if we lynch town today or tomorrow... town loses.

And Claude DOES bring up a good point. How is it certain we lose if we lynch wrong today?

It is not. The way I see it, we have only 1 or 2 scum alive. However, since the town almost always has to assume the worst out of any situations (unless it just doesn't make sense of course ). Therefore, the town has to assume that we have 2 scum alive right now. Also, like Leon said, the most likely amount of scum alive is 2.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Whoops, sorry, I misunderstood you there. Anyway, yes, that does seem like a good plan now that you cleared it up (Although it's what it looked like what we were going to anyway )

[Jaime Marcelle]

If you're going to do that, then just lynch me today. If you do it tomorrow you lose the game.

So if we do it today we'll win the game? Are you one of those people that on day 4 just turn into scum? No, of course you aren't! If we lynch wrong today and scum successfully kills tonight, we lose (still assuming there are 2 scum alive of course). On the other hand though, if we do NL today and lynch you tomorrow then assuming you're scum, we would have 1 scum vs. 3 townies which gives us much better odds of hitting scum vs us killing you today 1 scum vs 4 townies (1/4 chance vs 1/5).

However, something else I'm seeing. Leon is trying to play with our emotions as he sees that hes the most likely death tomorrow. Stuff like "If you lynch me you'll lose!" will get you nowhere!

[Jaime Marcelle]

Uhm, if you're going to kill me tomorrow, just do it today. Scum will not kill me tonight, so the same suspicion will exist tomorrow. It's that easy to undermine the No Lynch. If you lynch me today, you at least, hopefull, have a chance of winning tomorrow.

Also, I'm not playing with your emotions. It seems like your trying so hard to falsely incriminate me. I am just saying if you're going to lynch me regardless, do it today so town still has a chance.

Leon, are you paying any attention? Today is mylo which means if we lynch town today then we lose. If we lynch you and you are town then it does not matter if we lynch you today or tomorrow, we'd still lose.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Did saying that make Igor scum, Jaime?

No, however, it was still scummy.

Anyway, sorry my post was REALLY short but I just had time to come in, answer this short question and leave. I'll post more later.

[Jaime Marcelle]

As I have said before, the town must always assume the worst (while still being reasonable) and in this case, the worst is that we are up against 2 scum. Countless times before I have said "assuming there are 2 scum". Now why do you think I said that? Jeez, do I really need to keep putting it in each of my posts that reference the number of scum? (JK )

[Jaime Marcelle]

It's been nearly 36 hours since anyone other than myself or Jaime has posted and nearly 24 hours since anyone has posted...I'm definitely getting close to just voting No Lynch and moving to the next day.

We still have until Thursday so we might as well talk until then. I'd say the very earliest anyone shopuld hammer is 24 hrs before deadline and only if they know that they're not going to be on until then.

[Jaime Marcelle]

2) Jaime: What do you think of Edward?

I think I've already said what I thought of Edward a while back but w/e, it was probably a while ago. Anyway, Edward seems like a protown player who always offers protown opinion, asks protown questions etc. etc.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Since we're on the subject of Claude's questions I have a question for him.

Claude- Why did you just decide to ask these questions. They just seemed to come from out of the blue so do you have any purpose for it or were they just random questions?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Sorry i haven't posted earlier but whatever.

also, the only reason why I am discussing the possibility that given players are nk-ed is that it seemed extremely likely to me that this day will end in a nl. In a different situation I would have just asked "what if x flips town/scum".

Yes, the day ended in a NL but what does that have to do with NK speculation? It doesn't matter if we lynch or not. NK speculation=bad.

[Jaime Marcelle]

again, Jaime. In a different phase of game, in order to ask people about their own attitude towards the possible deaths of given players, I would have asked "What if xxx got lynched?" or simply "what if xxx flips town/scum?", but in this case I felt like using the NK example cuz I was convinced that the day would end with a nl.

What does the fact if we lynch or not have anything to do with weather or not you talk about NK speculation? NL or not, NK speculation is bad.

You can say you do not believe me (it's gonna be a good moment for that: carpe diem!), but how is my post 671 unclear?

It's not "unclear" per se. But rather I am confused as to why you choose to speculate about NKs.

[Jaime Marcelle]

cause I wanted to speculate about people whose alignment was hypothetically established, and the only realistic way for me to do it was discussing hypothetical deaths. Also, I probably also felt like we are in such a late phase that hiding roles may not be very useful anymore.

Besides, how is asking my questions fishier than calling a mass-role for tomorrow?

I can tell I'm not going to get anywhere with this anytime soon :p

Anyway, the night seemed really short and the town must now assume that we are at LYLO. However, realistically I'm beginning to think that we only have one scum alive right now because of the unusually short night phase. Scum, just like town wants to talk to each other as long as possible... Unless of course they have no one else to talk to.

Anyway, as I have said I will most likely be voting Leon today. however, I would rather wait to do that because
1. I want to hear from everybody first and
2. Just one vote on any person would put them at L-2 which I don't want to do straight away.

[Jaime Marcelle]

No. No discussion. Massclaim first, then we see where we are.

Does anyone have a huge problem with Jaime first, then popcorn?

I'd be fine with a massclaim if I knew why we're doing it. Care to explain since I have no idea how the town could gain from it?

[Jaime Marcelle]

(Sorry, I'm a bit confused, since I thought everyone knew why towns should always massclaim at LyLo).

Ok I did. I have no idea why I asked that question. I'm a fucking idiot

Anyway, as long as there isn't anyone opposed to it I agree with the massclaim.

[Jaime Marcelle]

My list would be

Leon
Claude
Jaime
Edward/Spencer.

Leon already claimed. There's no point in making him claim again.

Anyway, my list would be:

Claude
Me
Spencer
Edward

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Spencer: obvious lynch on Lylo?

I think he means as of right now. As in, hypothetically if we were to lynch right now it would probably be Leon.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I am a nilla able seaman.

Jaime, your turn.

Same here. Vanilla Townie aka Able Seaman.

Spencer, you're up next.

[Jaime Marcelle]

You have four consecutive Vanilla Townie claims pretty much. That's definitely some kinda bullshit.

I agree, 6 vanille townies (7 if Edward ends up being one too) is a lot... Although it would explain how quick the night was...

Also, a special flavor vanilla role? This is... intriguing however, comepletely possible. Spencer, is there anything else you can tell us about your flavor.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I call bullshit. When Leon claimed, you said that 'perfectly average aquanaut' did not sound like it came from a real role pm. If you really were a VT, that would be in your role PM as well. Care to explain?

I thought that he was claiming that his name was "Merely avarage aquanaut" instead of "able seaman" and I was pushing him for that because I remembered mine as saying Able seaman. However, since I haven't looked at my role PM in a while I forgot about that whole part in parenthisis. I know... I'm an idiot -facepalm-

[Jaime Marcelle]

This argument I can use against Leon, but also against Jaime, who, to my surprise, agreed in interrupting the massclaim.

I did not agree. How do you get this. I did say that it was odd that 7 people are nilla townies but I NEVER did say we should stop the massclaim.

i'm...leaning to agree, but if Jaime is town, it's dumb town, which would allow for this (no offense Jaime)

No offence taken. In fact I kind of agree You can not imagine the magnitude of the facepalm I made when I noticed my mistake.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, first of all I should say that I'm sorry for not posting at all yesterday but I forgot about something that caused me to be V/LA yesterday.

Anyway, I would like to hear more from Spencer about why he needed an updated PM. From the looks of it it just looks like some flavor in his PM changed but who knows. We've got nothing to lose.

Next up is Claude. Claude: Why do you feel so strongly that we have only 1 scum? Granted I'm sort of thinking that too (quick night. If there were multiple scum they would want to have it longer) but as town you always want to plan for the worst (Jeez I sound like a parrot ). Is there anything else that suggests to you that there is only one scum alive?

[Jaime Marcelle]

yes, Jaime, but given the situation from my point of view the scum is most likely either you or Leon. And I do not think you could be team-buddies.

So Spencer and Edward are clear, 100%? Granted Spencer is almost confirmed because of the mods post (it pretty much verified that what Spencer was saying was true) and Edward is pretty damned pro-town it does not mean that they aren't scum.

[Jaime Marcelle]

First of all, sorry for the double post (You're not the only one Edward )

pro-town-ness is all I have to work with, and I do not see any reason to think Edward should be scum. As for Spencer, come again, can you articulate more? You believe that he may be scum even though mod confirmed his story?

Even though Spencer is highly likely not scum you can't rule him out comepletely just yet. Last time I checked the thing the mod said was "I just found out I forgot to give an updated flavor PM to Spencer's replacement, so I'm updating the PM with some different info right now." Note that this does not state that Spencer is town. It simply states that his flavor was updated. Scum can have a flavor update too ya know...

Also, I never did state that you should think Edward/Spencer are scum. I was saying that you should not say that there is only one scum based off of who is acting scum and who is acting like town.[/quote]

Fixed BOTH double posts.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Yet another slip by Jaime and we get nothing? /facepalm

Where? I see nothing of interest in my latest post (At least from my PoV). Care to enlighten me?

Also, I think it's cute how you've been V/LA For 8 days and give a sub-par AT BEST post and then dissapear for another 5 days and only come in with this. Extreme active-lurking anyone?

[Jaime Marcelle]

And lurking=/=scummy

Does anyone else see this? Leon, please, PLEASE explain why you say this because I cannot think of any reason why lurking is not considered scummy.

Spencer is cleared. Claude or you, money NORMALLY would be on Claude, but I just cannot get over the mountain of slips.

No, No, no. Spencer is not clear. Clear means that he is 100% town. Even though Spencer is PROBABLY town as confirmed by the mod, he is not 100% clear (at least not yet).

[Jaime Marcelle]

Uh, no it's not. In your opinion it is. When I have nothing to respond to really and other discussion is going on, I'm not going to interrupt it at the time being.

I still don't see why you think that it's not scummy. could you please tell us how.

Now let's reveiw my definition of what something scummy is:

Something that is scummy is usually one of two things (except for a few excepions but those are just too complicated so lets not go there).

1. Something that helps the scum more than town
And/or
2. Something that hurts the town more than scum

Now then, lurking can fall under both of these. For 1, it allows scum to just stay in the background so they won't stand out as much and won't look as suspicious. It can also fall under number two because it hurts the town because it gives them less information by not having a person participate as much. Now, if you can disprove me, I would be happy to give you the benifet of the doubt and say that lurking is not scummy.

ESL, so too much slang for me in the last two posts. What is a golden egg and what does a stretch mean?

A stretch is something that is possible or reasonable but since you'd have to go to great lengths to make it that way thus making it unbeleivable.

As for golden egg, I can't think of any good way to explain it but if I can think of a good way to explain it i'll post it.

[Jaime Marcelle]

However, rereading this I can see where you might be led astray. Let me be more explicit

If Claude flips scum, and the game continues, then Leon is most likely scum
If Claude flips town, and the game continues, then Jaime is most likely scum

If Leon is scum, and the game continues, then Claude is most likely scum
If Leon is town, and the game continues, then Jaime is most likely scum

If Jaime is scum, and the game continues, then dear God Jaime is a moron, and Claude is most likely scum
If Jaime is town, and the game continues, then I'm at a loss, but I'd lean Leon as scum.

So, notice a trend here. When either Jaime OR Leon is scum, Claude is scum with them, or they were the last remaining scum, further, if Claude flips town, we are still liable to have a chance since Jaime only makes sense as lone scum

Claude is both a good bet for scum and a good bet for getting the last bit of information we need to find the remaining scum, if any.

Does this make sense?

This makes sense and I would have to agree with it. However, I would prefer to wait until later in the day until I vote and I advise everyone else to do the same (One more vote would put Claude at L-1 and I don't think that's safe this early).

[Jaime Marcelle]

Do you have any pressing issues you feel need to be resolved before you vote? Are you pursuing an angle that you think requires more discussion? If so, why not aggressively push these things?

It may not be that pressing however, I still think it should be looked at more. I want to hear more about why Leon feels so strongly about why lurking isn't scummy. While I somewhat agree with you and Leon that he likely won't change and no one will likely change their veiws on the matter I still think it deserves some consideration. Another thing that I've just recently noticed was Leon's latest post. While it seems harmless enough, it's how harmless it is that makes me look at it. He comepletely ignored the question I asked him beforehand.

So Leon: Again I ask this the third time. Why do you think lurking isn't scummy?
Also, why ignore the question when I asked it the other two times?

I do see what you mean Edward and I will try to be more agressive.

[Jaime Marcelle]

[quote"Claude"]@Jaime: do you realise how many times in this game you told "I agree with", "You are right, my bad" and so on?[/quote]

Pretty much and I wish there was a way for me to explain it but I can't really. I guess it's just my playstyle. Meh.

If Edward was the last scum playing a brilliant game, we would have already lost, since after Andrew's death (hey hey, look, he told me to consider voting me if he died) he's become like the closest to clear and therefore unofficial town leader.

Wasn't Spencer the closest to being clear? You even state earlier that he's the second closest to being clear from your point of veiw (And unless I am mistaken the first was you, correct?)

[Jaime Marcelle]

"Hey guys~ I'm scum! Sorry that was just my playstyle speaking! Pfft. Silly me!"

I think you're blowing situation out of proportion a bit. Being an agreeable person and a person who admits his mistakes does not mean I am admiting scum. I also didn't expect anyone to beleive me so w/e.

Also Leon, I enjoy how you are STILL ignoring the question I asked you. So now, for the FOURTH TIME: Why do you beleive that lurking is not scummy? Also, why are you avoiding the question so much?

[Jaime Marcelle]

Because that question is opinion based.

Yes, I understand that. However, I am getting vibes (especially now that you've been avoiding the question for so long) that you do not even know the answer to the question. And even then, it could provide us with useful information. Also, is an opinion based question nessesarily bad? How is it any worse then another opinion based question. In fact, most of the game is opinions and opinion based questions! Would you rather people ask "Are you scum?" or "Who do you think is scum?" If no one answered any opinion based questions, we wouldn't get that far, would we?

[Jaime Marcelle]

It seems everyones having trouble with multiple posting XD.

This is getting ridiculous. I already have a vote on me, and it is a wrong vote, but whatever. My hypothetical vote on Leon has no reason to remain hypothetical any longer. You can hammer me anytime. If another townie (assuming as I do that Ed is town) votes me, scum may easily hammer, so screw it.

You should know by now that all you're doing by saying this is creating noise... This will not stop you from being lynched.

(besides 2: if I were scum, I would have killed Edward, not Andrew: me and Edward never got along very well during the game, and he was bothered by my allegedly scummy questions as much as Andrew)

WIFOM

Unless you have any further questions, I have said all I had to say and I suggest to consider this situation as a crossed vote. Leon votes me, and Spencer and Jaime will be free to decide how and whom they will hammer.

Fine with me as long as Leon decides to go with it.

Also, as the deadline is on Friday, I will

Vote: Claude

due to the fact that

a. Claude is in my opinion just behind Leon in terms of scummyness and
b. Spencers latest post

However, please, PLEASE no one hammer until tomorrow (at the very earliest) because I still want to hear from Leon about the question I asked him about a while ago and possibly more depending on the answer i get from him.