Last Will Mafia (Over)

[Netopalis]

Don't complain. At least they killed Carrot Top.

I choose to not randomly vote. I hate random votes.

[Netopalis]

Oh, right. In that case, I feel that there's a fairly obvious choice here.

Vote: Yosarian2

[Netopalis]

As much as I agree with that post, I think it's important to note that if 7 players all have as their first pick for the will a member of the scumteam, the game's already lost. It's just a matter of playing it out.

[Netopalis]

Personally, I think that this vote should go to the player who has, in the past, shown the best history of play on the site. To that end, I voted for Yos. Sure, it's possible that he's scum, but it's possible that he's not as well, and it's just as damaging in the hands of stupid scum as it is in the hands of experienced scum.

[Netopalis]

Why Pwnman?

[Netopalis]

Agreed on the last point. We should probably diversify our wills after this election phase. As it is set right now, I'd imagine that a lot of them would end up going towards the same group of people.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but we shouldn't until the identity of the second vote player is ascertained.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, but please be sure to include reasoning in the same post as your vote in the future. It makes it easier to analyze the game that way.

[Netopalis]

How can you know whether or not his post was valid if you didn't read the rules carefully? Perhaps there is some hidden nuance that you're not aware of?

[Netopalis]

I am ten ninjas!

[Netopalis]

Agreed. You've not explained why Tatetothetot is town, and it's certainly not obvious from his posts.

[Netopalis]

I have nothing to base a towntell on at the moment. I will have something to base it on in a bit. In absence of that, I still maintain that it's best to give an extra vote to the most skilled player, because the most skilled player will use it most effectively as town and not as damagingly as scum (since he or she will want to avoid detection).

[Netopalis]

Socrates: My point is that, in day 1, a doublevote's power is incredibly diluted. It's also true that experienced scum are fairly careful to join a bandwagon until they feel sure that they will have the support of others in order to hide their presence. Therefore, if we accidentally do give the second vote to an experienced scum player, they'll be just as careful and it may not even come into play. Regardless, I don't understand the value in giving the second vote to anybody other than the best player in the game. It's just as possible that they could be scum.

[Netopalis]

Less experience, mostly. We know and trust that Yos is a good player. We just don't know that much about you yet.

[Netopalis]

Theory: While it's bad to have all of our votes concentrated in the same person, it's also bad to have bad players with extra votes. Therefore, perhaps a more nuanced approach would be to spread the votes around the best players as a group? I mean, if all of the best players are scum, they'll win easily anyway, but I think that we can all agree that it's incredibly unlikely that even a majority of, say, the 5 best players in this game would be scum together.

[Netopalis]

Top hats?

And yes, I am suggesting that.

Why do you think that I'm scum? You're incredibly vague.

[Netopalis]

You need to explain why you think that's scummy, though. It's not immediately evident.

[Netopalis]

The same is true regardless of the strategy used to select players, though. Intentionally selecting players who aren't the best runs into the same problem. The only way to do it so that nobody gets an advantage like that is to do it fully randomly using an off-site randomizer. However, I would posit that this is not optimal play either. Scum could get the votes fairly easily and the weaker, more pliable players will control a disproportionate amount of power in the game, a power that is more manipulable by the scum.

[Netopalis]

Read before posting, my friend.

[Netopalis]

I didn't say that we shouldn't try to distinguish, but I think that accurate scumhunting is impossible at this juncture in the game.

[Netopalis]

D1 lynches are statistically worse than random. Hence, our attempts to find someone who is definitively pro-town would be worse than random. We can, however, accurately determine who is and who is not good at the game.

[Netopalis]

Gayle: Optimal play IS important, as it gives the town extra votes. We win if we get into a situation where there are 7 scum and 1 townie, but that townie has the rest of the town's votes, nightkill aside.

[Netopalis]

That's....that's terrible logic, right there. Easily manipulable players are more often manipulated by scum than they are by town.

[Netopalis]

I want the white knight. The bad player will probably give that extra vote to scum if we "off" him, as you say. It also forces us into more policy lynches if we pick poorly.

[Netopalis]

No, no, no...I mean it's a townie that might accidentally give the votes to scum.

[Netopalis]

I believe that Archon's sig may be one of the most appropriate ones that I have seen on this site.

[Netopalis]

Why exactly did you have such a bad reaction to it? It seems like the discussion is a necessary one in a game with unusual mechanics like this.

[Netopalis]

Yes, I am, sorry. Posted too quickly without thinking.

What, exactly, do you find scummy about Yos' initial post? It seems to me that discussions of optimal strategy are a necessary part of a game with unique mechanics. It's a null tell at best, IMHO.

[Netopalis]

Your implication seems to be that you feel that he is less of a town player for it. Hence, scumminess. It also seems to me that the theory behind his first post was inextricably linked with the question of who the town gives extra votes to - ergo, it is an appropriate place to discuss this at the time that we're going to be giving out extra votes. Also, Yosarian probably knew going into this, when he saw the player list, that he was the most experienced and well-respected player on the list. He wouldn't have needed to campaign as scum - in fact, it would be an excellent opportunity to make himself look as if he were thrust into power.

[Netopalis]

Will, voting, it's all the same. It's all about choosing people to give extra votes to.

[Netopalis]

Read the list of threads in the Theme Park Forum?

[Netopalis]

I'm sure I could if I really wanted to take the time. What are you getting at, though?

[Netopalis]

Gayle: You're going to have to explain a bit more about "creeping me out". I really can't base any sort of game decision on the vague notion that you're "creeped out".

[Netopalis]

I don't understand #3. I also can't really deal with some vague emotional feeling you have, since I can't confirm it nor can I understand it. None of the things that you've put together really seem to add up to why I shouldn't vote for Yosarian. My vote stays.

[Netopalis]

Llama: Is the Daykill valid?

[Netopalis]

Fifi: Unless he didn't catch it. I'm just being cautious.

Gayle: Well, what post does he say this in? I don't really remember that exchange.

[Netopalis]

I read everything, but I don't remember every single word of every single post, Gayle. What is it with you lately? You seem to have some sort of a grudge against me...Every post that you mention me in seems to have these barbs.

[Netopalis]

Just finished reading it very carefully. Still not sure what you're going on about. The implication of not wanting to give Yosarian an extra vote seems to be implying that he's scum. I believe I've seen that sentiment expressed in your "creepy" read on him, as well as in a few things that Tatetothetot has said. So, what's the problem?

[Netopalis]

The value is in the discussion, not the result.

[Netopalis]

Gayle's barbs, referred by isolation post number:

1: Well, I guess I'll keep my vote on Netopalis. I have faith in his theory discussion.

- Reference to a game we both played in where I got lynched for talking too much about theory on D1.

7: Also itt, Netopalis is scum.

11: It is really difficult trying to argue strategy with Mafia Theory PhDs like Netopalis, so I decided to go campaigning instead.

13: I know you theory types don't have emotion, but it feels to me that you two are trying to concentrate power in Yos. And based on that feeling, I would like to elect anyone but Yos.

14: This is strange. Several minutes have passed and Netopalis hasn't replied. Something must have happened to him. Someone find his address so I can direct the police there immediately.

17: The post that Netopalis made me dig up. Proof that not even Netopalis reads Yos's megaposts.

[Netopalis]

In response to your other response:

Of course I want Yos to be elected! I was the first vote on him and have been pushing it the whole time. What I don't get is why you don't want him elected. If it's not because he's scummy and it's not because you don't have faith in his abilities, then what's the deal? What you're saying seems to have no real consistency to it. Add some flour, stir for a bit and come back with something that sticks together a bit more.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, they're jokes, but it just seems to me like you came in with sort of a chip on your shoulder. Meh, it's nothing, though. Nevermind.

[Netopalis]

I've not seen anything against Yosarian that's not just vague fear, uncertainty and doubt. RayFrost is a good choice, but I think that Yosarian is marginally better.

[Netopalis]

So, you don't trust him but don't find him scummy. Let's say that there was a theoretical role that could switch the alignments of all players, and this role was activated. Would you trust Yosarian then? What if the roles were rerandomized? Does your distrust have anything to do with alignment?

Also, if not Yosarian, who do you find scummy, then?

[Netopalis]

But you haven't really explained why you have those misgivings, at least not in a way that is convincing to anybody else. Still, you seem to think that we should all follow up on your gut reaction that none of us can experience. Why is that?

[Netopalis]

I'm trying to divine the source of your feeling of disingenuity. You seem to be of the opinion that because

you

find him disingenuous,

we

should pick somebody else. Nothing that you've said is really anything that anybody else can put stock in and say, "Yes. This makes me second-guess my choice to go for Yosarian." I can understand you not wanting to elect him. I can't understand you telling everybody else that we shouldn't elect him.

[Netopalis]

I'm saying that you need something to point to to convince other people. You seem to be manufacturing that proof from whole cloth.

[Netopalis]

And it wasn't...really all that convincing. You even admitted that yourself in the post.

[Netopalis]

Nevermind. This is obviously going nowhere.

[Netopalis]

How do you recommend we settle this, then, Ray? It seems that we are at an impasse.

[Netopalis]

Yes, something needs to be settled! Clearly you and others have an intense and serious misgiving about one of our most trusted players, yet you're not giving anything more than vague notions of him seeming creepy or disingenuous. This is relevant.

[Netopalis]

Tate: What dirt, specifically, do you feel is on Yosarian?

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Ray's "DON'T VOTE FOR ME" could also be the classic Perot maneuver - most people feel that people who want to be elected shouldn't, and will therefore vote for someone who asks to not be voted for.

And the "dirt" you mention is only a barely cognizable and ephemeral distrust from you and Gayle, hardly enough for us to base a decision on.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, just googled. It was actually William T. Sherman that said it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shermanesque_statement - Essentially, they often have the opposite of the intended effect.

[Netopalis]

Probably, based on everybody's reaction to Yosarian.

[Netopalis]

Only problem is, you're now doing it because you don't want people to elect you. To win the game, you need to be 1 step ahead of what everybody's thinking, which is reverting back to telling them not to vote for you. But since I said that, you need to tell them to vote for you to deal with the effects of this statement. Of course, I just said that too. Welcome to WIFOM.

[Netopalis]

Why can't we just pick a solid town person who everyone likes as town instead of the person who seems to be the most logical?

...what.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but my reaction was pretty much expected.

[Netopalis]

But they say that they don't suspect him! That's what Gayle spent the last 3 pages explaining!

[Netopalis]

Not suspected = town read, IMHO. Also, they haven't produced anything that leads to a town read elsewhere.

[Netopalis]

Oookay. Now we're getting somewhere. However, now you need to explain the pro-town read on Rayfrost.

[Netopalis]

Meh, I guess with me, I always put everybody into town first of all. Minor screwups put them in null, major ones put them in scum. But, I have a really odd style of play that's not widely recognized, so whatever.

[Netopalis]

His play is straight-forward? If that's why you're voting for him you should also respect his request not to have the vote. Additionally, Yosarian was attacked for his opening strategic post. To me, that embodies the spirit of straightforwardness. And yes, I didn't really get exactly what you were saying because, well, nobody really said that. You and Gayle couched it in terms of him being "creepy" and there being too much "dirt" on Yosarian, both terms which make me think that you have a reason to suspect him.

[Netopalis]

[sarcasm]

Given how often I get lynched, I'll vote for someone who is not likely to vote for me

[/sarcasm]

I wonder if that sort of thinking is affecting the votes.

Plausible, but wouldn't it implicate people as scum as well?

[Netopalis]

RayFrost: Let me see if you'd agree with this statement:

RayFrost has a play somewhat similar to what I'd call the spiral method of scumhunting. He starts throwing suspicions around, slowly getting closer to the scum until he finally gets there. It takes a while, but it works. However, having too many votes makes this method weaker, since it means that he needs to think more seriously before casting each vote, as each vote may put someone much closer to lynch than it normally would.

[Netopalis]

"Creepy" was Gayle's term. And what about that is not straight-forward?

[Netopalis]

(What about Yosarian's leader post and the subsequent votes are not straight-forward)

[Netopalis]

Still here, just nothing to add. You should be encouraged, though, by the amount of support you have from the other players. I mean, you'd be my second choice too, which isn't bad at all in a game of this size.

[Netopalis]

Ray: I think that you're a town read because you haven't done anything stupid as per my previous post. I also think that you could judiciously use the vote. I also think that Yosarian is a bit more experienced and that it'd probably be best to have him with it.

Tate: So, it's wrong to discuss strategy at all? Also, the question of who to put in wills is the same as the question of who to vote for - it's all a question of who gets extra lynching votes. So, it discusses the entire game rather than just this phase. Big freaking deal. Honestly, this is about the biggest mountain that I've ever seen built from a molehill.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: And yes, I am drilling you and Gayle because I find your posts questionable. I'm not sure if it's scummy or not. I could definitely see it being there, since Yosarian seems to (in my limited experience with him) prefer logical play while RayFrost is more tolerant of gut, meaning that Yosarian's extra vote would be likely to go against you or Gayle than RayFrost's.

[Netopalis]

Better than your ridiculously vague attempts at casting a shadow of fear over Yos' play before he even gets started.

[Netopalis]

Yosarian will, on March 25, have 5 years of experience on this site alone, compared to RayFrost's 1. He has likely played in more games on this site than just about anybody else. His gameplay is, generally, impeccable. RayFrost is getting there, but like me, he only joined this Fall. I'm guessing that RayFrost feels much like me in that he feels that he needs more time and experience. I think it's a good reason to choose Yosarian here.

[Netopalis]

Er, RayFrost's less than 1. Sorry, a carryover from a mistake I made in a previous post.

[Netopalis]

Tate: That is illogical, though, since you also seem to be voting Ray because you feel that he is a good player. If you want to elect a bad player, you should have voted for yourself.

...

Ok, that was a cheap shot. Sorry. I couldn't resist, though.

Also, in re: the policy lynch comparison, what else do we have to work off of? I don't feel that there's been anything that would indicate a strong town read in any player.

[Netopalis]

No. I don't trust her either, as previously stated.

[Netopalis]

Raider: I have problems with Gayle and Tate's double-teaming and their odd belief that we SHOULDN'T give the vote to Yosarian BECAUSE he is the best player. Also, their weird little half-suspicion-but-not-quite stuff seems waffley to me.

[Netopalis]

Why Gayle?

[Netopalis]

Yes, but she seems to be, at least in my opinion, driven by paranoia rather than a clear-headed analysis.

[Netopalis]

Right. You distrust him. Or you find him creepy. Or you don't like the way that his shoes are tied. Or his username starts with a Y, and therefore can't be trusted. Or it's Saturday and you never cast a good vote on a Saturday.

[Netopalis]

Correction: Humans who are trying to understand people who don't have good reasons for their actions resort this kind of thing.

[Netopalis]

I have a perfectly good reason why I don't agree with her. She's provided nothing but vague notions of her not distrusting Yosarian. I can't verify or understand them. Her point about the opening post is incomprehensible, and I fail to see how it connects to anything.

[Netopalis]

Sure, if I saw a good reason to. I have absolutely no reason to change it as of now, though.

[Netopalis]

I think that there are fairly concrete reasons to elect Yosarian, though. He's been around longer than anybody else playing and he's probably played more Mafia than just about anybody else that's active these days.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. We've already discussed the potential of doc protects. Why RayFrost, then? The logic should apply to him as well. If we follow your logic, why don't we give it to somebody like Dana who it really won't matter if they kill or not?

[Netopalis]

Socrates: Except, Gayle started saying this before she really expressed distrust of me. It seems that her distrust formed when I started advocating for Yos. Also, to clarify, I don't believe that *all* votes should go to one player. I do believe that most votes should go to a core group of players who we can trust, and that we need to make sure that those players don't all have the same people at the top of their wills. If we give the votes to somebody inactive or flighty, we stand the risk of no-lynching or mislynching based on the whim of someone who pops in, reads only the last page and posts. Also, a more detailed analysis of Gayle's case to follow.

[Netopalis]

Gayle has made 43 posts in this game. Of those, 24 are directly attacking Yosarian. Another 5 relate directly to my support of Yosarian. Only 14 of his posts can be said to not contain a reference to Yosarian, and most of those are joke posts or random votes.

He continues to maintain that he does not find Yosarian scummy, but he also makes the following statements:

"FoS: Yos Because I can't bandwagon him. "

"Also, elect anyone but Yos to mayor (when did we start calling it that?). His reactions are creeping me out. "

"Why Yosarian2 Is Creepy
1. He begins the game and makes the startling discovery that mafia has a different win condition from normal. Shockingly, they win by
controlling half of the votes! Even more shocking, if they get those votes quickly, THE GAME WILL END QUICKLY. Thankfully, Yos was here
to warn us about such danger. He also suggests the obvious strategy (obvious to everyone except Netopalis, apparently) of making sure no
one person gains too much power.

2. He claims that his above discovery required careful study of the game rules.

3. When [insert name here] says the he believes yos did the above in order to look pro town and garner votes, Yos interprets this as
"Yos is obviously right and therefore scum"

4. He completely ignores my last post addressed to him.

5. You advocate concentrating power in the "best" players, and you have already made it known that Yos is one of these players"

"Mighty disingenuous, Mr. Yosarian. "

Gayle seems to make the following claims: That because she has a vague and uncertain feeling of disingenuity emanating from myself and Yosarian, everybody else should drop what they're doing and elect RayFrost. RayFrost is a good candidate, but the argument itself does not hold water. He never backs up this claim, and when anybody attacks him with it, he invariably responds with one of two responses: Either "You're scummy!" or "There are other reasons!"

What are those other reasons, Gayle? You've stated repeatedly that there are other reasons, but you have yet to explain one. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, your misrepresentation, deliberate derailing of the town and desire to control the votes of players without giving solid reasoning behind your own votes add up to scum.

Justify your actions or face the noose.

[Netopalis]

Yos: Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that we compare lists or anything, just that we be careful to not have people who already have a ton of votes at the top of our lists.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough, Gayle, but your response to me was only after your scumbuddy Tatetothetot started attacking Yos' post. Regardless, I fail to see how you could so clearly determine scum from the very start. Also, why hold this argument as some sort of a hidden trump card until the very last day before the deadline?

[Netopalis]

Gayle, the problem is that you can't spend more than half of your posts finding somebody questionable and still claim you have a null read on them.

[Netopalis]

Gayle, do you deny that you said this?

Strategy discussion, huh? This is going to be a boring five days. Strategy discussion in this setup is pointless because it boils down to "Be careful or we could lose!". Yos's "strategy discussion" is essentially telling people what they already know if they have any sense. Claiming that what he posted required careful study of the setup is nonsense. As previously made evident, I didn't even read the rules all that carefully, and nothing in his post was particularly enlightening.

FoS: Yos

Because I can't bandwagon him.

Vote: RayFrost

RayFrost is a school boy in Japan and Japan's educational system is better than yours. Like everyone in Japan, RayFrost also knows deadly karate. Smart + Deadly = Someone we can depend on.

Or this?

Also, elect anyone but Yos to mayor (when did we start calling it that?). His reactions are creeping me out.

Or this?

You're going to have to explain a bit more about "creeping me out". I really can't base any sort of game decision on the vague notion that you're "creeped out".

Why Yosarian2 Is Creepy

1. He begins the game and makes the startling discovery that mafia has a different win condition from normal. Shockingly, they win by
controlling half of the votes! Even more shocking, if they get those votes quickly, THE GAME WILL END QUICKLY. Thankfully, Yos was here
to warn us about such danger. He also suggests the obvious strategy (obvious to everyone except Netopalis, apparently) of making sure no
one person gains too much power.

2. He claims that his above discovery required careful study of the game rules.

3. When [insert name here] says the he believes yos did the above in order to look pro town and garner votes, Yos interprets this as
"Yos is obviously right and therefore scum"

4. He completely ignores my last post addressed to him.

5. You advocate concentrating power in the "best" players, and you have already made it known that Yos is one of these players.

I know you theory types don't have emotion, but it

feels

to me that you two are trying to concentrate power in Yos. And based on that feeling, I would like to elect anyone but Yos.

Or this?

I'm saying that stating the obvious seems more like a ploy to seem like you are a helpful, thoughtful townie rather than you actually being a helpful, thoughtful townie.

Or this?

Do I trust Yos with the double vote? No. Do I think that he is scum? Not necessarily, but I do have my misgivings. As I've explained at least twice now, I would like to give the vote to someone I don't have such misgivings about.

Or this?

Let me ask you this: If you thought some of the posts of Player A were disingenuous, and Player B, whom you find to be rather scummy, wanted to elect that player, would you want to elect Player A?

Or this?

What can't you understand? I found some of Yos's posts questionable, I find his top supporter scummy. Why should I not suggest we elect someone else? Are you saying that if other people don't agree with me, I have no reason to suggest such a thing?

Or this?

No, the reason I gave myself was that I didn't like your reactions and that I would rather elect someone else.

Or this?

Also, pointing out your lies and your sensational, disingenuous statements isn't helping my case? Well, it certainly isn't helping yours.

Or this?

Your claims in that post were disingenuous, sensational or outright lies.

[Netopalis]

Gayle: It was not clear, at least to me, that you objected to Yosarian's nomination because you found me to be scummy. Indeed, you couched it in terms of "creepy feelings" and "Disingenuity". That's all I meant by 401.

Your turn. How on earth do you spew that much crap about a person during a game and not even have an opinion as to whether they're scummy or not? And, of course, it begs the question - why exactly do you find me scummy?

[Netopalis]

Tate is your scumbuddy because it seems like you two are making the same arguments, stating the same "creepy feeling", etc. Honestly, it was just a way of getting reactions. You two are possibly linked, though. The trump card was referring to the fact that you spent those pages and pages of arguing without ever actually, you know, saying what your argument was.

You said repeatedly that you found him to be questionable and that you got a creepy feeling from him. Do I need to repost the quotes? This is like someone having written a biography of Abraham Lincoln and, when asked what he thinks about the man, he says, "You know, I'd never thought about that..."

[Netopalis]

I just *love* how you can get away with anything in Mafia by saying that it's a "gut thing". It's automatically accepted and there's literally no way to argue against it.

[Netopalis]

1) *shrugs* I thought that was your argument from the beginning. It doesn't make sense otherwise to say that I'm scum because I supported his election.

2) Yep. That was all rather ephemeral, wasn't it? I mean, none of those really explain anything. 1 is a summary of his post, 2 is a statement that you find it obvious, 3 is not supported by Yos' posts, 4 is probably for the best given the lack of substantive content of your posts and 5 is not a statement of anything that Yos did.

3) Not really, you never said that explicitly, if I recall.

[Netopalis]

Alright, then why am I scummy? Is #5 the only reason that you didn't want Yos to be elected?

[Netopalis]

Also, here's the full text of all of my posts made before you start campaigning against Yos. I'd like you to point out the specific posts that you feel make Yos a bad candidate.


[quote=Netopalis]
Don't complain. At least they killed Carrot Top.

I choose to not randomly vote. I hate random votes.


___

Oh, right. In that case, I feel that there's a fairly obvious choice here.

Vote: Yosarian2

____


Personally, I think that this vote should go to the player who has, in the past, shown the best history of play on the site. To that end, I voted for Yos. Sure, it's possible that he's scum, but it's possible that he's not as well, and it's just as damaging in the hands of stupid scum as it is in the hands of experienced scum.

_____

Why Pwnman?

______

Agreed on the last point. We should probably diversify our wills after this election phase. As it is set right now, I'd imagine that a lot of them would end up going towards the same group of people.

_______

Yeah, but we shouldn't until the identity of the second vote player is ascertained.

________

Fair enough, but please be sure to include reasoning in the same post as your vote in the future. It makes it easier to analyze the game that way. [/quote]

[Netopalis]

But I gave solid refutations to each of the other 4! None of them show *why* you think that he's questionable or disingenuous or creepy or whatever you're calling it this time , they're just bloody statements of your feeling towards his statement!

Analysis of your 3 linked posts to follow.

[Netopalis]

76 does not assert a claim about me.

88 & 107 - there are going to be groups of people with more votes. It's just basic mathematics, unless you can think of a way to make the voting distribution completely uniform. Therefore, I still fail to see why it doesn't make sense to put those votes in the hands of those most likely to use them. Even if you disagree with this statement, I would hope that you can see why I would come to the conclusion. Incidentally, your strategy of "letting each individual decide" would probably lead to more clumps than anything else. What's to prevent all of those individuals from picking the same person?

[Netopalis]

1) I probably misworded. The point is that Gayle's logic is a tautology. She makes the following statements:

"I don't support Yos because Neto supports Yos."

"I find Neto scummy."

"I find Yos to be creepy."

"Neto supports Yos, therefore he is scummy."

At least, that seems to be the logic in play here. Look at the above list of my posts. I fail to see how she could have divined my alignment from that limited set of posts. She also opens with an FOS on Yosarian RATHER than an FOS on me, which shows that her original intent was to attack Yosarian and NOT to attack me.

2) The problem is that her points are so scattered...I ask her a question, she gives one justification. I ask her about that justification and she gives me something else, which was not mentioned originally. Each time I ask these questions, I get a different - and often conflicting response.

And as for the whole thing about rhetoric, I'm a law student. It's kind of my job to win arguments. I feel particularly like I'm right in this situation, so I'm taking a hard stance on it.

[Netopalis]

It's because they are insufficient to explain your vehement and intense loathing for his nomination. I'd understand if you had started this whole thing saying you'd "prefer" a RayFrost nomination, or that you'd be "more comfortable" with a RayFrost nomination, but what I saw was an FOS against Yosarian and accusations that look an awful lot like you're saying he's scum.

And if there are multiple deaths in the same night?

So, why am I scummy?

[Netopalis]

Fact: On Page 2, post #42, you placed an FOS on Yosarian and made an, albeit limited, analysis of why you felt he was a bad choice.

Fact: When questioned about why he was a bad choice, you said that it was because you found me scummy, and I was advocating him.

Fact: Post #42 does not say anything about me, nor had you mentioned me in any of your posts up to #42. It seems to be an after-the-fact justification that was tacked on when you felt that you couldn't safely attack Yos.

Therefore, there are three possible conclusions:

1) You're lying and you do or did find Yos to be scummy.

2) You're lying about the motivation for your dislike of Yos having the vote.

3) You actually do find Yos with an extra vote to be a bad idea because you feel that I am scummy.

Assuming the best possible choice of the 3, you are extremely limited in your choices as to how you reach that conclusion. Here is the full text of all of my posts up until post #42:

Don't complain. At least they killed Carrot Top.

I choose to not randomly vote. I hate random votes.


___

Oh, right. In that case, I feel that there's a fairly obvious choice here.

Vote: Yosarian2

____


Personally, I think that this vote should go to the player who has, in the past, shown the best history of play on the site. To that end, I voted for Yos. Sure, it's possible that he's scum, but it's possible that he's not as well, and it's just as damaging in the hands of stupid scum as it is in the hands of experienced scum.

_____

Why Pwnman?

______

Agreed on the last point. We should probably diversify our wills after this election phase. As it is set right now, I'd imagine that a lot of them would end up going towards the same group of people.

_______

Yeah, but we shouldn't until the identity of the second vote player is ascertained.

________

Fair enough, but please be sure to include reasoning in the same post as your vote in the future. It makes it easier to analyze the game that way.

Here is the full text of all 3 of Yos' posts up to post #42.

Hello, everyone. No vote right now.

On a side note, this is probably pretty obvious, but it's probably a good idea for people to not talk about their "lists" in thread at this point, since making that information public just makes it easier for scum to manipulate the game through nightkills (IE: killing someone who has a scum on top of their list to get their votes themselves, or if that's too obvious, killing someone to increase the voting power of their "pet townie".)

Talking about strategy, that whole "mafia win if they control half the votes" thing is also kind of scary, in the rules. If things go badly, town could lose really, really early because of that; say 25% of the people in the game is scum, which would make 6 people. That means scum control 6 votes out of 25 on day 1 (25 because of the double voter.)

That means that if the 7 townies die, or the double voter and 5 other townies die, and if the scum get control of all those votes, the scum end up with 13 votes. Which means that town could lose as early as day 3; even sooner if there's more then one kill a night.

I guess the best way to avoid that might be to try and keep our votes spread out, at least until we have a confirmed innocent to give them to; we don't want to put all our votes into one giant stack-of-doom and then have that person either be scum or accidentally give it all to a scum when they die. So if you see someone having control of a bunch of votes, you might want to move someone else to the top of your list. (Again, though, don't tell us when you do it).

_____

For starters, I don't like Yos' post. Most of that is fairly standard stuff and doesn't seem necessary to post.

If you're in an unconventional game with unusual rules, the first thing you want to do is to figure out the correct stratagy. What out of that post I made was "standard stuff" that you already knew? Because that was stuff I all had to figure out myself as I made that post, read the rules, and tried to figure out their implications.

I can only assume it was done because he wanted to seem more pro town to gain votes.

And this is really terrible, especally since the POINT of my post was that NO ONE should be given too many votes at this point, including me.

Not something I can go off of right now, but I will not be voting for Yos to receive the double vote.

(shrug) This whole post of yours seems like a blatent attempt to plant paranoia in people's minds here, and I don't trust it.

I don't know very many people on the player list but for those of you who do know, please don't go off meta. If anything, a good player is not who should receive the vote because a good scum player with a double vote does not balance out a good town player with a double vote, imo.

So, what? Your theory is that it's better to give the double vote to a "bad" player? You do realize that a bad player with a double vote, even if they're town, is likely to make a serious "Opps, was that a hammer" type mistake, right?


____

Yeah, but I have yet to see a scum faction in any game over 4 people...if there is 6 or 7 as you say, I would think ti would be spread out over 2 factions, don't ya think?

Oh, there could be 2 factions, but that might make it even worse; two nightkills a night means bodies stack up faster.

Either way, I don't think it's a good idea for everyone to give all their votes to one person.

Logically, for 3 to be true, you must have found something within these posts that was scummy. All I want to know, and all I ever wanted to know was

exactly

which of these posts is scummy and why. That's all. Point to one. I don't care if you do your touchy-feely-hokey-pokey stuff with it. Just point to the post from either of us that rings scumbells. You can't point to anything after it these, though, because they can't logically be motivation for your post #42.

[Netopalis]

*sigh* Do none of you see? She's obviously lying about her motivation behind post #42. If you read it, it says nothing about me, it only mentions Yosarian. Also, as far as I can tell, there's nothing that either of us said that should have merited the response. Still, she spends 16 pages without ever discussing this. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked, it's generally the scum who lie - townies don't do it unless they have a very, very good reason.

[Netopalis]

It's your call between Yosarian and RayFrost. I've been pushing for Yosarian due to his experience on the site. Gayle and Tatetothetot have been pushing for RayFrost because they don't trust me.

[Netopalis]

I was going to say, don't vote for me, vote for Yosarian. It'll actually count if you vote for Yos.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and by the way. "Let's kill all the lawyers"? It was said by revolutionaries in Henry VI who were concerned that the lawyers would stand up to them and stop their bloodbath.

[Netopalis]

Yos: We're electing to give someone a double vote.

[Netopalis]

Also, it's either Yosarian or RayFrost.

[Netopalis]

Er. EBWOTP: I meant to say Ortolan, not Yos.

[Netopalis]

The fact that your justification cannot work for Post #49. Why did you FOS Yos in Post #49?

[Netopalis]

Actually...it is. You've provided that as a reason for not voting for him, but not for your FOS, which is a finger of

suspicion

. You've previously said that you don't

suspect

him. You've also said previously that the only reason that you're really against his election is because I'm supporting it. How do you explain the discrepancy?

[Netopalis]

We wouldn't have the same conversation over and over again if you'd just give a straight answer. First, the reason that you don't want Yos is not because you find him scummy, but because you don't like me supporting him. Then, it's because you get a "creepy" feeling from him. Now, I have nothing to do with the original decision. There is no consistency when you consider your posts as a whole.

[Netopalis]

I have. Thoroughly. You seem to keep shifting your position.

[Netopalis]

Fine. I'll drop it. I think it's pretty clear that I find both Gayle and Tate to be scummy.

[Netopalis]

He knows. We discussed this. Pay attention.

[Netopalis]

Drat. That's...that's a really crappy night. At least I got Tate right. I'm going to do a quick reread of 2 players; I vaguely remember that I came up with something during the night that merited examining them, but for the life of me, I can't remember why I suspected them. BRB.

[Netopalis]

First up: DocPotter. DocPotter makes 12 posts during the last game day, voting first for RayFrost and then for Ortolan. He never explains the switch. During the day, he doesn't really show up all that much expect to cast dispersion on a few current wagons and say that we need more posting from players, even though he has one of the lowest post counts in the game.

[Netopalis]

I think we could also take a look at Zeenon. Zeenon made 4 posts yesterday, one of which was promising a content-filled post "tomorrow", which never showed up. He pushes for me or Tate to get the vote, for unclear reasons. Altogether, it seems that his play is very muddled. I think we could really use seeing a lot more content from him.

[Netopalis]

Ok, fair enough. I went back and read your posts in context, and they make a lot more sense there. Sorry, it's one of the pitfalls of the ISO read.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, we should all be aware of the probability of multiple scumgroups. Note that Tate was listed as

Egyptian

mafia.

[Netopalis]

Raider: The only votes that could have been split up were the two that were given to CMAR, which could not have been prevented. If the double-voter was going to be NK'd, then those votes have to bunch up anyway. I fail to see how we could have logically spread them out more.

[Netopalis]

Analyzing who scum gave votes to is a bit too WIFOMy for my tastes....

[Netopalis]

1 game does not mean that the fact that it *looks* like multiple groups is invalid.

[Netopalis]

Given the setup of this game, I'd expect that, for balancing purposes, there'd probably be a few less scum than we'd normally see in a game of this size. That's just wild speculation, though.

We seem to be plagued with lurkers. Bandwagon, anybody?

Unvote, vote: Bogre

[Netopalis]

That makes sense, given the fact that scum isn't just looking to have a majority survival rate. However, I'm not entirely convinced of its usefulness as a tell. We'll see, I guess.

Oh, and WIFOM does have some specific non-buzzword meaning. When I use it, at least, it's referring to an action with unclear motivation that could be interpreted in a number of different ways, but in which the interpretation cannot produce a reasonably clear result. In other words, WIFOM is unproductive reasoning.

[Netopalis]

Wzta! ZGreak! Gracklae! Phbtpaht!

HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION AT ALL IN THIS GAME, ANI?

[Netopalis]

Yeah. Eventually, town has to, well, try to catch scum, as painful as it is for some of us to do.

*eyes Bogre's 1 post*

[Netopalis]

Llama, while you're here, can we get a prod on Bogre?

Bogre did pick up his prod from the end of the day but I will prod him again

[Netopalis]

I'd like to hear Zeenon's response to that. Also, Gayle, do you have any thoughts about the flips? I'm rather curious to hear your opinion in particular.

[Netopalis]

Something I missed yesterday: Viking, you say that, if the votes could be split up amongst various targets by the multivoters, that the town should force me and CMAR to split them up. How would you suggest enforcement? Not really a scummy point, I'm just curious.

[Netopalis]

You guys do realize that it'll always be 13 to lynch, right?

[Netopalis]

I do find Gayle scummy, but he's not the play today. He's been active, and if we need to, we can take care of him later. I also am much more sure that ZEEnon is scum than Gayle is now that I've seen Tate's flip. Doc satisfied my points, and I feel fairly good about putting him in the null-to-town zone. I'd much rather see Bogre replaced; the votes were mainly there to impress upon him the importance of posting when he shows back up.

[Netopalis]

I really don't think we'd get to an actual lynch, but since you're concerned...

Unvote, vote: Zeenon

[Netopalis]

@Mod: Bogre is being replaced elsewhere, could your replace him here? It's been 6 days since his 1 post in this game and I'd rather not waste a daykill on a possible inactive townie

[Netopalis]

Why? I actually rather like his posting style. It's to the point and fairly accurate.

[Netopalis]

Elscouta: Pay attention, I asked him about it.

Gayle: True enough, I guess.

Dr. Pepper: Mind elaborating?

[Netopalis]

My point about the NK was the fact that we lost RayFrost AND Yosarian, both of whom are excellent scumhunters. Rather disappointing, really. Sure, we caught Tate, but I imagine that he would have been lynched sooner or later. His play yesterday was rather weak.

Elscouta: Yes, that is what I am referring to. You imply that there is a disconnect between that post and Viking's?

[Netopalis]

No worries, it will not lead to a 20 page long argument.

Hey, now! I reserve the right to obsessively and unnecessarily drag out an interrogation! It's my thing!

[Netopalis]

Oh, it's coming, I just need to finish 110 before I can open PW, and there wasn't enough room in the sig for both links.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Sign up for 110 - it'll make PW happen more quickly!

[Netopalis]

Because it seemed to me that Viking's post was a logical response to my question, albeit a bit related.

[Netopalis]

Don't apologize, fix it. Post.

[Netopalis]

Unvote

We're getting a bit too close to the hammer for my taste.

[Netopalis]

CMAR: You may be right, it may be a post restriction. I just looked up another game that he played, and he didn't post like that.

[Netopalis]

CMAR: Actually, I disagree. I feel fairly strongly that he's the best lynch candidate for the day. We *might* not have a vig, and lynching also generates a lot of responses. I want to see how everybody feels about a ZeeNon lynch before he dies.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but we also don't have the opportunity for a claim either. Plus, it's better to have him replaced before we proceed.

[Netopalis]

Gayle: What do you mean, how does a posting restriction fit into the setup? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

[Netopalis]

If we're going to lynch him whether he's replaced or not, there's no point in making a replacement slog through the 25 pages of this game...

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I don't think that it's only related to theme...

[Netopalis]

Actually, I just remembered. I can tell you what he'd claim if he were here, due to my role. It's a pretty crappy one, so I don't mind telling you folks this. We're neighbors, unconfirmed alignment. I won't reveal who else is in the neighborhood. I also cannot confirm whether any members of the neighborhood have additional roles or not.

[Netopalis]

That's what I'm saying - he'd claim town neighbor.

[Netopalis]

You shouldn't be sure that I'm town based on that. In fact, since it's such a large neighborhood, I'm guessing that there's at least 1 scum in it..

[Netopalis]

I am perfectly willing to lynch Zeenon. Also, I'm still not sure why a posting restriction wouldn't fit with the setup. Exactly how would it not? When you say it wouldn't fit with the setup, I'm imagining it in the sense that a miller wouldn't fit into a copless game or a scum roleblocker wouldn't fit into a mountainous game.

[Netopalis]

Myself and Zeenon are neighbors. I can't guarantee alignment. There are more in the neighborhood than just the two of us.

[Netopalis]

Gayle: I find you somewhat scummy, yes. However, the person who is scummiest might not be the best lynch. Generally speaking, in earlier rounds, it's best to lynch more inactive players because active players, even if they are scum, are more likely to make more slips. Thus, I feel that with more time spent with you around, I'll be able to more accurately gauge your alignment in the game.

[Netopalis]

I am not advocating Lynch all Lurkers, I am advocating lynch all scummy lurkers.

Zeenon's 4 posts:

Oh the four people killed pre-game gave me their votes. Sweet!

Since it's inevitable that I will get who I want to have the double voting power due to my total of five votes now we should either choose Netopalis or tatetothetot to have the double vote, assuming you don't want to give me another vote. Thanks!

Vote: tatetothetot

p.s. i'm joking about the five votes.

You, mainly because of this:

For starters, I don't like Yos' post. Most of that is fairly standard stuff and doesn't seem necessary to post. I can only assume it was done because he wanted to seem more pro town to gain votes. Not something I can go off of right now, but I will not be voting for Yos to receive the double vote.

Due to the fact that you had the exact same mindset while reading that post of his.

Netopalis is of a different nature. I just think he's town can't say why. You are the better choice as of right now.

Less voting Yosarian2 for being smart and more voting tatetothetot for being town please.

Oh hi. No school/work tomorrow due to family day so expect a read/post from me.

In the first post, I find that often mafia teammates try to reference the other players in their team briefly, so that it won't be questioned why they're not talking about that person later on. This is somewhat subverted by the fact that ZEEnon does talk about tate, but, yeah.

Note his more detailed analysis of Tate's play. It's not exactly clear why he agrees with tate, but he goes to great length to establish that he does and that he has a reason for voting for Tate rather than for anybody else. He does bring up a town player (myself), though as a second choice so that it can serve as a safety if Tate flips.

Next, he states that he would rather support Tate "for being town" instead of Yosarian. He has no justification for why Tate is town. This is not an early game comment, either - it's made well into the first day.

Finally, he makes an unfulfilled promise to post "tomorrow". Not that scummy, it's just a personal pet peeve.

Vote: Zeenon

(Note: That puts him close to lynching. Be careful when adding votes!)

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Something I forgot to mention - Zeenon also makes a point to state that he's joking about the extra votes. Why is he so cautious when making the joke? It seems like a bit of an odd little PS there, as if he's extremely concerned about saying the wrong thing.

[Netopalis]

9/13. CMAR + 1 = lynch.

[Netopalis]

Three reasons:

1) I want to pressure ZEEnon if he is indeed reading this.
2) I want to impress upon the replacements the importance of commentary on ZEEnon's play.
3) Given how much I am on this site, I feel that it's likely that I'll be able to unvote if CMAR also places a vote on ZEEnon.

[Netopalis]

Dana: I'm holding you to that.

[Netopalis]

So who DO you advocate, Ortolan?

[Netopalis]

Zeenon only said that he had previously had some computer problems which were fixed, and that he would be more active on the following day. Honestly, there's been very little said in the neighborhood QT - I've made most of the posts.

[Netopalis]

Pwnman: Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, post something substantial. Your lack of content makes all the little babies in the world cry out. It's like there's a massive black hole where your contribution to this game should be, and it's sucking all the life out of the day. This is only exacerbated by your semi-regular vague attempts at excuses, promising posts at an eternally moving "tomorrow". I guess it's not tomorrow yet, given that, in a fashion not unlike Zeno's Paradox, we're continually moving towards tomorrow but will never reach it. You never look at a day and say, "Wow, it's tomorrow!" So, I suppose that you haven't been wholly inaccurate, but it's still incredibly misleading. But, back on topic, it's hard to veil the absolute rage and disgust that I have for your lack of posting. Every day that you go without posting, it's like you're just tossing more and more kittens into a meat grinder. Post or replace out.

[Netopalis]

Ok, so I went back and did an iso read of Pwnman. He never promises to post tomorrow. Redact that part from my rant, please. If requested, I can come up with an equally strong replacement for that part. I'd rather not spend any more time on Pwnman, as he has already used up far more of my time than he deserves.

[Netopalis]

The crap? How do you get scumbuddies from that? And how are you so sure that he's scum and not just inactive?

[Netopalis]

Alright....

Hi stop calling me a lurker thanks, my computer has not been co-operating.

That's too bad. I hope that you're able to post more in the future. We'll still call you a lurker.

I did not immediately trust Yosarian because I have made an initial post in a game as a Serial Killer that seemed pro-town and instantly made everyone view me as town for the majority of the game...

Oh, yeah, I was scum and I did this once, so that means that everybody who's scum does that. But, wait! Just a few paragraphs earlier, you said:

Post 20 written by Yosarian2 seemed like an attempt to appear more pro-town to me.
Didn't mean he was scum because town want to seem pro-town as well.

How do these two mesh up? It seems as if your second part indicates a null read, while your first part indicates a scum read, both coming from the same post.

Post 23 written by tatetothetot seemed like it came from a pro-town player due to the fact that I am one to believe that those that provide dissent early on are more likely to be town as mafia would not want to go against people early on. Guess I was wrong, big deal. No reason for you guys to hop all over me because of an incorrect read.

So, this vague dissent post means that you need to call him explicitly pro-town without reasoning twice? It seems like your supposed evidence doesn't mesh with your statements.



CMAR: You need to hear from Gayle and Ortolan? Exactly why and about what? I would think that you would be waiting more to hear from the inactives...

[Netopalis]

Try counter-arguing against mine?

[Netopalis]

Wait a minute. My statement in the neighborhood that neighbors was useless gave you a pro-town read? The crap? You have the weirdest scumdar ever seen.

[Netopalis]

Never said that. I said that Neighbors were the most useless role ever made. But, yeah, tangential.

[Netopalis]

Where have I heard that before?

[Netopalis]

Uh, I was referring to our day 1 exchange. Not sure how you get sexism from it. Yeah.

[Netopalis]

Gayle: Your profile switch is confusing.

[Netopalis]

This should be good...I'm really looking forward to Ed's analysis, especially coming from such an inactive playslot.

[Netopalis]

Interesting. Sorry about that...So, is your username a past-tense verb? As in..."YOU JUST GOT AMISHED!"? I may use that anyway, regardless of whether it is or not. At any rate...

Interesting points. I'm afraid that I'm not convinced about Dr. Pepper, though. What exactly makes you think he's scummy?

I need to reread CMAR. My initial read was as pro-town, but I think it may bear further investigation.

One other concern that I have is the inconsistent distancing/buddying that you're implying. It seems that because Gayle and Tate stuck close together they're scum, but since Gayle is attacking Dr. Pepper for little reason, he's scum? I'm not sure that I follow that line of reasoning.

[Netopalis]

That's...That's very impressive. Very convincing too. I'd like to elaborate on it, but for the first time on this site, I think I'm speechless.

[Netopalis]

I've been extremely busy lately - I'm going to try to catch up today or tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

Well, that was pretty useless. I think that Amished's case on Dr. Pepper is pretty strong...but I think we can do better today. I don't like how ZeeNon hasn't shown up since the suspicion largely left him, and I didn't like his responses to begin with. I find him to be incredibly scummy. As for CMAR...Can someone put together a decent case against him? I'm afraid that I'm not seeing it that much.

[Netopalis]

Mod: Please prod ZEEnon - it's been 4 days.

[Netopalis]

Alright...So, do you really need me to rehash the arguments again? You said you didn't trust him, you said that you would rather elect someone a little more pro-town, you said you found him to be creepy and you failed to produce any solid reasons for any of these statements, other than his opening strategy post. Your defense was that I was scummy for attacking you, that I shouldn't have been advocating Yosarian so strongly and that your gut was telling you that it was a bad move. Do you really, really want to go back into this argument? Really?

[Netopalis]

Gayle: In a situation in which we have 1 vote to give out, which was yesterday, how would you advocate giving it out? We can't spread it out. We can't divide it. It's illogical to give it to anyone other than the best player.

[Netopalis]

I didn't say this would be a particularly small group. As a general rule, though, I did say that it's better for better players to have the votes. You're the one that read "small group" into that. That also doesn't explain your reaction to Yosarian.

[Netopalis]

Says who? The whole point is that you suddenly and without reason adopted a confusing and indefensible position regarding Yosarian. As for the quote, we had already been discussing your stance for about 5 pages, if I recall, and I was getting sick of it. I wanted to shift the focus back onto your position so that we could move forward. This is specifically what I said:

Theory: While it's bad to have all of our votes concentrated in the same person, it's also bad to have bad players with extra votes. Therefore, perhaps a more nuanced approach would be to spread the votes around the best players as a group? I mean, if all of the best players are scum, they'll win easily anyway, but I think that we can all agree that it's incredibly unlikely that even a majority of, say, the 5 best players in this game would be scum together.

I said that we would *spread* the votes around the best players. Where does that imply that, say, 5 people get *all* of the votes? Of course, the way this game is structured, it's likely that they will be very concentrated anyway, but yeah.

[Netopalis]

Raider: How would you ensure that votes are spread out further? It seems like even if everyone were to make wills randomly, they would still tend to group together.

[Netopalis]

Right, that does make sense, but I guess that my point was just that if we're going to have to order people, it makes sense to put the best people at the top, at least the people that we each trust the most to be fair and accurate.

[Netopalis]

Well, obviously I'm not going to convince you folks, so I'll drop it...I still think I have a point, though.

[Netopalis]

Please don't replace me. Will post tomorrow after noon.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Netopalis]

I love all the people jumping onto this non-point, can you make it any easier for

us

scum?

[Netopalis]

A comma would not improve the sentence - the phrase "us scum" implies membership in the group "scum".

[Netopalis]

Oh, wait. You meant to address it to scum not indicate membership. Sorry.

[Netopalis]

Pepper: Why DRK? That's not supported by your post.

[Netopalis]

Mod: can we just get another replacement? He's only made 3 posts and they were just promising catching up later.

He has assured me that he will be at normal pace after he gets his connection straightened out. If I deem it to excessive I will look for a temp or permanent repalcement

[Netopalis]

Let me think on this a bit more. I honestly haven't put as much effort into this day as I should have. I'll have a vote in one way or another tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

My thoughts after a quick reread of the last few pages:

CMAR - Seems to be buddying up to everybody quite a bit. In several of his walls of text, he just agrees with everybody that posted before him while attacking an inactive.

Gayle - Arguments already made against her...Plus, her reactions to Dr. Pepper make me think that she's either scum who is nervous about his unusual posting style (him being of the opposite faction or town), or is scum with him trying to find some reason to attack him that won't gain a lot of support, but will be enough to distance them.

Fifi - Pops in randomly with odd or useless comments and outright misrepresents a statement by Dr. Pepper.

Dana - Chronic lurker, fails to explain anything, could be a very opportunistic scum or SK.

Shotty - Hard to read based on the few posts that have been made. I'm going to need to see a bit more from him before I pass judgment. He could very well be scum, but I'm not entirely sure why I feel that way, honestly.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, vote: Gayle

by the way. He's the best candidate for the day.

[Netopalis]

Gayle, I always took Neto's theory to be whomever each player found town, not like a consensus or anything. That would get some decent spread of votes.

This, by the way. It may be where we got our wires crossed. I didn't advocate choosing a group as a town, I meant that we should each put our best pro-town players at the top of our list.

[Netopalis]

Why do you think Gayle is town?

[Netopalis]

Netopalis is DeathRowKitty your scum partner by the way?

Sorry, missed this earlier. Of course not. Why would you think that?

[Netopalis]

I'll second the call for a claim, BTW - we're not going to get anywhere until we get through this first day...

[Netopalis]

Gayle: Surely you can at least appreciate the position that you're in? I mean, really, there's a fairly large mountain of evidence against you. Far more than I've seen against most correct lynches.

[Netopalis]

1) You were willing to do practically anything to prevent Yos' election, because you felt he was "creepy" and you "didn't trust" me, although you contended that he wasn't scummy and that you really did have good reasons, which made sense to nobody but yourself and which required more than 10 pages of back-and-forth to establish.

2) You denied attacking Yos, despite the fact that it was mathematically proven that almost 2/3rds of your posts mentioned him in a disparaging fashion.

3) You immediately backed off on this when Yos flipped town because you wanted to look more town and you failed to own up to your D1 statements.

4) You call for more votes on Dr. Pepper without stating a reason other than you don't like his outlined post format. It is later explained why this is found to be scummy, but it seems that you follow the format of "Accuse first! Then, if you can find a reason, try to justify it, but only when forced to."

5) You tunnel against Dr. Pepper for most of D1, failing to produce substantial content against or in support of any other player.

6) You practically avoid saying anything about the popular ZeeNON wagon, aside from a few oblique comments against it.

7) You drop off the face of the earth when attacked, then are shocked when people don't lessen their suspicion against you.

8) You buddied up to a confirmed scum.

9) You support odd people in the game but don't seem to like anybody who is really advancing the game.

10) I wanted to make this list end at an even 10 bullet points.

[Netopalis]

Actually, I take that back. I have a better #10.

10) Your defenses to attacks against you are to deny everything without substantiating your denial and to attack those who attack you.