Last Will Mafia (Over)

[tatetothetot]

For starters, I don't like Yos' post. Most of that is fairly standard stuff and doesn't seem necessary to post. I can only assume it was done because he wanted to seem more pro town to gain votes. Not something I can go off of right now, but I will not be voting for Yos to receive the double vote.


Seeing as what we are going for here is to find at least one unanimous person that we can consider town, I suggest we don't random vote it. I don't know very many people on the player list but for those of you who do know, please don't go off meta. If anything, a good player is not who should receive the vote because a good scum player with a double vote does not balance out a good town player with a double vote, imo.

Thoughts so far?

[tatetothetot]

Meta and random are the only choices right now...I will act later on the info we gain in these 5 days

I understand which is why no one should vote right off. We should have a brief "town" hunt rather then scum hunt.

Since it's inevitable that I will get who I want to have the double voting power due to my total of five votes now we should either choose Netopalis or tatetothetot to have the double vote, assuming you don't want to give me another vote.

Why me or Neto?

[tatetothetot]

For starters, I don't like Yos' post. Most of that is fairly standard stuff and doesn't seem necessary to post.

If you're in an unconventional game with unusual rules, the first thing you want to do is to figure out the correct stratagy. What out of that post I made was "standard stuff" that you already knew? Because that was stuff I all had to figure out myself as I made that post, read the rules, and tried to figure out their implications.

I disagree. This is something you would want to do once the game has started. To me, this is pre-game stage and our purpose here is to find a town player.

I can only assume it was done because he wanted to seem more pro town to gain votes.

And this is really terrible, especally since the POINT of my post was that NO ONE should be given too many votes at this point, including me.

It seems to me that by saying that, you are advocating your more pro town then others just by pointing this out. People think, "Oh, He doesn't want us to be too rash, so he is probably town."

Not something I can go off of right now, but I will not be voting for Yos to receive the double vote.

(shrug) This whole post of yours seems like a blatent attempt to plant paranoia in people's minds here, and I don't trust it.

It is an attempt to get people to realize that they shouldn't vote you because you think you have a strategy for the game or because of how smart you are.

I don't know very many people on the player list but for those of you who do know, please don't go off meta. If anything, a good player is not who should receive the vote because a good scum player with a double vote does not balance out a good town player with a double vote, imo.

So, what? Your theory is that it's better to give the double vote to a "bad" player? You do realize that a bad player with a double vote, even if they're town, is likely to make a serious "Opps, was that a hammer" type mistake, right?

My theory is that a bad player with a double vote is easier to control where as a good player with a double vote is more likely to control us.

Overall, people need to diversify there votes today before night begins. I have a felling that most of the votes for Last Will were done on meta and that is not something we need to go off of. We need to base our votes on who we think is town

this

game.

Rayfrost could be a good potential person to receive the double vote.

Don't give it to me. I fail.

You will not fail if you are town.

[tatetothetot]

zEEnon wanting to give the doublevote to tatethetot, who will probably get lynched by the end of day two, instead of Yos, is scummy. Yer, there's no intuitive reason to vote a VI instead of an experienced player.

Who are you referring too? If it is me, why do you think I am going to be lynched day 2? Also, why am I any worse choice then Yos?

[tatetothetot]

Random voting our mayor is not he best option because the goal is to give "town" the extra votes. If we random dice it then we have more of a chance of hitting scum then if you simply read and pick who you think is town.

@Yos- I ma not going to quote all that over again because... it seems like the same stuff I quoted the first time. My reasoning for not wanting you to get the double vote is because of how your first post came across to me. I am not accusing you of being scum but I am saying your a bad choice for our mayor. Anyone is already trying to establish strategy on there first post and try to appear not a "town" player but a "smart" player, is not someone who I want to have more power then anyone else.

Some players are more influential then others and until I have them as confirmed town, I don't want them to gain any extra votes.

"Bad" players

are

easier to control unless they purposely just try to ruin the game for us or become inactive. In that case, we can just ask for a replacement.

[tatetothetot]

"Bad" players

are

easier to control unless they purposely just try to ruin the game for us or become inactive. In that case, we can just ask for a replacement.

So you want to give extra votes to bad players because they will be easier to manipulate? Am I reading this right?

I would rather have someone the town can control then someone that will try to control us.

[tatetothetot]

That's....that's terrible logic, right there. Easily manipulable players are more often manipulated by scum than they are by town.

Perhaps for normal mafia but this gameplay is different and will require different viewpoints. Do you want a good scum/town player whom people follow as their "white knight" to have two votes? or do you want a bad player that we can off if he becomes a hassle?

[tatetothetot]

Things I find Scummy

• tate pushing for a noob to get elected
  Uh.. what?
  
  
• tate calls Yos out for being obvious when Yos was not
  What again? I called him out for stating standard stuff, which seemed like an attempt to earn the mayor position.
  
  
• ortolan's statement that tate will probably get killed night two
  That I found curious as well and never got an answer for why he said that.
  
  
• hp[leaves] random electing
  Whats worse, is that some people liked that.
  
  
• vikingfan wanting scum to get more votes
  Didn't see this...

Things I find Weird

• Cry elects me for being awesome
  
• Archon's nuetrality
  
• raider's avatar determines who to elect suggestion

Things I find Townie

• Yosarian starts out with special rules discussion
  See? My case and point. You found that town and now want to elect him for it, or at least your considering him an option. I disliked the post altogether. This is not what we needed to be doing until day 1 and the actual game starts.
  
  
• Gayle arguing against the votes getting concentrated

Conclusions

• Either Yos or Gayle appears the worthy of getting another vote
  
• Vote Yosarian2
  
  
• I want to lynch tate

For starters, I don't like Yos' post. Most of that is fairly standard stuff and doesn't seem necessary to post. I can only assume it was done because he wanted to seem more pro town to gain votes.

Not something I can go off of right now, but I will not be voting for Yos to receive the double vote.

It certanly sounds like you were accusing me of being scum. You "didn't like my post", you "assumed I was trying to seem pro-town to gain votes", and it was "not something you can go off of right now". Certanly sounds like you're trying to attack me there.

Backtracking already?

Bull. I was accusing you of trying to earn votes for mayor. That first post didn't seem town to me which is why you will not be getting a vote from me. The bolded part of my quote just indicates that I have no reason to consider you scum but I don't consider you town either. Your in the mish mash area which is not good enough to earn the double vote.

[tatetothetot]

Arachon & tate for the first 2 scumteam members.

Silly. I have done nothing scummy and have been actively scum hunting before day 1 even begins. What have you done?

[tatetothetot]

Why exactly did you have such a bad reaction to it? It seems like the discussion is a necessary one in a game with unusual mechanics like this.

Sorry, I am lost. What are you talking about? Are you even talking to me?

[tatetothetot]

as for me, my only point about scum handing off votes to scum at this early stage of the game is that scum would help point us to another scum once uncovered (in some ways like a cop investigation).

Thus, scum may HAVE to give votes to a town player to avoid uneaarthing scumbuddies. Which is what we want.

I have a question. When one person flips scum and we find out the next person on his list is you, are you town or scum based off that?

See the flaw in your logic? We can't assume scum will give it to town OR to scum first. Now if repeated scum are found and both have the same person on the top of their list, we might be able to check into it but even that doesn't confirm that person mafia.

[tatetothetot]

Yes, I am, sorry. Posted too quickly without thinking.

What, exactly, do you find scummy about Yos' initial post? It seems to me that discussions of optimal strategy are a necessary part of a game with unique mechanics. It's a null tell at best, IMHO.

Yes but it was too early. That is not something we needed to worry about till day 1. Right now, scum are trying to gain a double vote and town have to try and figure out who to give the double vote too. It seemed like a campaign to me.

BTW- I never said the post was scummy, just that I didn't want to elect him mayor for it.

[tatetothetot]

First off, I laughed so hard at the ergo. Lets not take this conversation to high, we won't the kiddies to keep up [/sarcasm]

Neutral is an acceptable status which is were I have Yos.

His first post was all about voting from a Last Will standpoint. We are dealing with the double voter right now and I don't see any strategy coming from that post about electing the double voter (although I probably would advocate that as town play either)

I have never played with Yos so using his meta is void on me.

[tatetothetot]

Had a busy day and now about to go to work. Will post some more thoughts tonight.

I think the discussion on our mayor today is about wrapped up so...

elect: Rayfrost

For those who are voting Yos for mayor, please consider that he is not an altogether favorite. There are several people who consider Yos to be a bad choice yet no one has said anything negative about Rayfrost who is generally a solid player. I suggest we give the double vote to the most trusted town player which at the moment is Ray.

[tatetothetot]

Nothing needs to be settled. It appears that Yos will be elected, much to my disappointment.

[tatetothetot]

We are not voting for a lynch, we are voting to elect a mayor. I want someone who has no dirt on him which would be Rayfrost for the moment. My reasons had nothing to do with with him being creepy. So for now, nothing needs to be settled expect to vote for our double voter. Can people who are voting me switch their vote to Rayfrost?

[tatetothetot]

Dirt meaning some people have a bad feeling about voting for him where as no one has a bad feeling about voting Rayfrost (except Rayfrost).

Listen to me Ray, I want you to think about this for a second. Being a double voter does not mean that we entrust you with a huge responsibility, only that we consider you town and town is who we want to have an extra vote. You can not fail any more with this then with your own vote.

[tatetothetot]

And the "dirt" you mention is only a barely cognizable and ephemeral distrust from you and Gayle, hardly enough for us to base a decision on.

Probably, based on everybody's reaction to Yosarian.

So are you saying only Gayle and I are against Yos getting the double vote? Or are there others?

I will admit Yos is a good player... it has been the topic of discussion for part of the game so far. This is why I do not want him to be elected the double voter. Why can't we just pick a solid town person who everyone likes as town instead of the person who seems to be the most logical?

[tatetothetot]

Why can't we just pick a solid town person who everyone likes as town instead of the person who seems to be the most logical?

...what.

...translation...

'why can't we pick a town read over somebody that may not be town despite being an awesome player?'

^This

I have a neutral read on Yos but a town read on Rayfrost.

[tatetothetot]

Oookay. Now we're getting somewhere. However, now you need to explain the pro-town read on Rayfrost.

Your kidding me. This whole time you never understood that we simply had only neutral reads on Yos? Yeah I didn't like one of his posts but that doesn't mean I am accusing him of being scum, especially this early in the game.

Rayfrost play is straight forward which is my main reason that he seems townie to me. But why I think Ray is town atm is not as important as to if anyone doesn't think he is town.

[tatetothetot]

Oookay. Now we're getting somewhere. However, now you need to explain the pro-town read on Rayfrost.

... it's obv because I don't want to be elected.

which is terrible reasoning.

What? Who ever said you were town for not wanting to get a double vote? That would be fail and probably earn an FoS for being lazy.

[tatetothetot]

His play is straight-forward? If that's why you're voting for him you should also respect his request not to have the vote. Additionally, Yosarian was attacked for his opening strategic post. To me, that embodies the spirit of straightforwardness. And yes, I didn't really get exactly what you were saying because, well, nobody really said that. You and Gayle couched it in terms of him being "creepy" and there being too much "dirt" on Yosarian, both terms which make me think that you have a reason to suspect him.

I never said the word "creepy" and I have said several times that I don't consider Yos scum and have him neutral.

Yos play was not straight forward. Everything about his opening post seemed rehearsed as if he was trying to say what comes off as a good leader type. Right off it seemed to me that he was aiming for the double vote. Sure enough, he practically has it.

[tatetothetot]

Rayfrost play is straight forward which is my main reason that he seems townie to me. But why I think Ray is town atm is not as important as to if anyone doesn't think he is town.

Citation needed.

You want me to quote times where I think you have been pro-town, or straight forward? Well, this is a straight forward post I just quoted. You want proof as to why I think you are town.

[tatetothetot]

Rayfrost play is straight forward which is my main reason that he seems townie to me. But why I think Ray is town atm is not as important as to if anyone doesn't think he is town.

Citation needed.

You want me to quote times where I think you have been pro-town, or straight forward? Well, this is a straight forward post I just quoted. You want proof as to why I think you are town.

~.~

Your 'evidence' for finding me town is more pathetic than my lack of confidence.

Seriously Ray.... it's like you want me to start accusing you of being scum rather then town. Are you thinking that if my reasons for you being town are not good that I will switch my election vote? Not happening.

(What about Yosarian's leader post and the subsequent votes are not straight-forward)

Hello, everyone. No vote right now.

On a side note, this is probably pretty obvious, but it's probably a good idea for people to not talk about their "lists" in thread at this point, since making that information public just makes it easier for scum to manipulate the game through nightkills (IE: killing someone who has a scum on top of their list to get their votes themselves, or if that's too obvious, killing someone to increase the voting power of their "pet townie".)

Talking about strategy, that whole "mafia win if they control half the votes" thing is also kind of scary, in the rules. If things go badly, town could lose really, really early because of that; say 25% of the people in the game is scum, which would make 6 people. That means scum control 6 votes out of 25 on day 1 (25 because of the double voter.)

That means that if the 7 townies die, or the double voter and 5 other townies die, and if the scum get control of all those votes, the scum end up with 13 votes. Which means that town could lose as early as day 3; even sooner if there's more then one kill a night.

I guess the best way to avoid that might be to try and keep our votes spread out, at least until we have a confirmed innocent to give them to; we don't want to put all our votes into one giant stack-of-doom and then have that person either be scum or accidentally give it all to a scum when they die. So if you see someone having control of a bunch of votes, you might want to move someone else to the top of your list. (Again, though, don't tell us when you do it).

Point out one part of this post that has anything to do with what this phase is, an election phase for the double vote. This entire post is just regurgitating the rules of the game and how scum wins and tells us nothing. I learned nothing from this post and as such considered it an indirect way to say, "Hey, I have logic so I know how to use my double vote."

The next page and from then on, he started earning votes.


Now I have a question. What is your point? It seems as this conversation has turned around to the point of drilling me for a scum slip.

[tatetothetot]

Fine. In that case, I am done for the night. I will not be getting anywhere with you so I am going to just wait till the actual game starts. I hope some people change their mind and switch to Ray but Yos' "logic" seems to overpower us all.

[tatetothetot]

...


Wow. That just sucked the fun out of the game from me. Fine. I can't go to bed now after being insulted as a loser.

Tell me why I am wrong and why Yos deserves the double vote over Ray?

[tatetothetot]

Ok. So you personally want Yosarian to be our double voter because he is a more experienced player. So far, that seems to be most everyone else take on it too...

Ignoring my initial reaction to Yos' first post, let me explain why I do not want Yos to be our double voter.

Having a strong, logical player like Yosarian gain an extra vote in a game where votes are the primary way to win for scum, not kills, is a bad thing. First off, him being a good player and a slight chance to be scum means big trouble for town. We will not think to lynch him for at least two or three days if he doesn't die due to the fact there might be a doctor or some other reason scum wouldn't kill him. As scum, he could single handily win the game just because people trust his logic and meta from past games. However, if we have a basic player like Rayfrost is not to good but not bad either, then we are assured that he will not white knight the town as scum.

Second, and more importantly, by pushing for one of our better players to receive an extra vote is the same as painting a target on his head for night kill. If Yos is town, then he will die soon and there goes one of our stronger players.

[tatetothetot]

Yos, you haven't really said anything to make me a superior election choice, so yeh.

And, let's be honest here, you are a better choice than I am.

Meh. You're looking town here. Plus the amount of paranoia in this game towards me already is going to make it hard for me to use the double vote to scumhunt and pressure scum properly; you'd probably be able to use it better then me here because of that.

I mean, I'd rather see me become mayor then see it go to one of the people I suspect, but I'm pretty sure you're town here.

The issue of paranoia doesn't really exist. There are only a hand full of people who would prefer not to see you as mayor. The real issue is the over exageration from others about how opions towards you. I would love for Ray to get the double vote but too many people are hung up on you right now.

[tatetothetot]

How would you guys feel if I were to ever so subtly imply that Yos, Ray, Gayle, AND Tate are all town and the scum team is lurking right now?

I would go with it. I doubt that all the listed are town but for now, more scum are lurking then not. Most of these arguments right now seem town on town.

Gayle's recent back and forth between Yos got rather intense with the two blatantly stating that the other was lying and acting scummy.

I am ready for this phase to be over so we can actually get into the day 1 scum hunting. There are a few people whom I would like to call out and get some pressure on.

Ray or Yos people, pick one and make it fast.

[tatetothetot]

I am ready for this phase to be over so we can actually get into the day 1 scum hunting. There are a few people whom I would like to call out and get some pressure on.

Who? Also, why are you waiting?

Calling out people for lynches is not what I want to do durning this phase. I want people to pick on someone whom we can count as town for our double vote.

Day 1 is when I feel the real scum hunting needs to be done as we can actually vote then.

[tatetothetot]

Gayle's recent back and forth between Yos got rather intense with the two blatantly stating that the other was lying and acting scummy.

This is IITA, by the way, and strikes me as wishy-washy equivocation. What do you think of the exchange between me and Gayle? Do you agree with him, do you agree with me, or what?

Calling out people for lynches is not what I want to do durning this phase. I want people to pick on someone whom we can count as town for our double vote.

Day 1 is when I feel the real scum hunting needs to be done as we can actually vote then.

There's never a bad time to start scumhunting.

Besides which, if we can figure out who we suspect are scum, then obviously that'll make it easier to figure out who to give the double vote to. If we don't scumhunt, then how are we supposed to figure out who we trust and who we don't?

Despite your reasoning, I would prefer to hold off on my scum accusations until day 1. Bringing new information that does not effect you and Ray would only distract town more and prevent us from doing what needs to be done... which is pick a double voter.

The intense part was directed more towards Gayle as I don't think you actually called him a liar. He was taking the conversation almost to an emotional level so if I was forced to take a part in your dispute, it would be yours.

[tatetothetot]

It's your call between Yosarian and RayFrost. I've been pushing for Yosarian due to his experience on the site. Gayle

and Tatetothetot

have been pushing for RayFrost because they don't trust me.

I have not ever said anything about me not liking you being my reason for advocating a Rayfrost election. Please don't make everything we say about you being a victim.

[tatetothetot]

unvote

Vote: Yosarian

Please understand that I do not like Yos gaining the double vote, but at this point, there is little else I can do. Not to mention, I really want day 1 to start.

[tatetothetot]

unvote, vote: yos2

ninja....