Newbie 940 - Game over

[Thor665]

Vote: Die Prediger

Intentional choice not to put someone at L-3? 'Hai guyz, I am not scum becauze I don't pile on votes in RVS'

Exact quote.

[Thor665]

But maybe you are scum enough to pile on vote and take someone to L-3, right Thor?

Interesting. Re-read your post above this one and tell me how you're doing anything differently. Haven't you just decided I'm scum based off of a single post?

[Thor665]

Excellent - so we agree that scummy behavior can be found in one post.

Why are you voting me again? Your claim thus far (insomuch as I can tell) was that it was scummy of me to find scummy behavior in one post. You've just agreed that's not scummy, so clearly you have to see something scummy in me besides that, what is it?

Also, do you think AurorusVox is scummy for wanting to vote for people she thinks she'll get positive vibes off of later in the game?

[Thor665]

================Rule Question======================

Can someone please clarify something for me? Does "5 to lynch" mean we

have

to get five votes on someone to lynch them? Or is it just the number of votes that

guarantees

that someone gets lynched? I.e. can someone be lynched with the highest number of votes, even if its not >50%?

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

A simple majority of all living members must agree on one person for a Lynch to occur (simple majority = ½ # of living players +1, rounded down).

At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch. In the case of a tie, the person who first received the required number of votes will be lynched. If this number is not met, a No Lynch will occur.

There will be no reduced number of votes in LyLo.

===============================================

Yes, in one, but hardly on the first. It would be smarter to wait some time, dont you think?

Wait for what? Some random length of time to start scumhunting? No, no I do not think that.

Nope, the reason was not that one. If you read carefully, you will see the reason is to take someone to L-3 rightaway. Or youre just trying to pressure on me, or you are on a scum bandwagon. So you can take 2 reasons why i voted on you.

1. Taking someone to L-3 is not in and of itself scummy (and town needs to do this during the game).
2. Trying to put pressure on a player is not in and of itself scummy (and town needs to do this during the game).
3. Or I could be scum, yes, that would be scummy.

Also, do you think AurorusVox is scummy for wanting to vote for people she thinks she'll get positive vibes off of later in the game?

Nope, should I?

Maybe. Why would you want to vote for someone you were getting positive energy from? Votes should go towards people you have negative energy towards. Do you disagree?

Besides, what do you think about someone that votes just because the name of the other?

Depends when it happens. Within the first two pages - I generally have no issue with it. Beyond that I have very strong issues with it.

I was under the impression that this was the Random Voting Stage. Surely I don't need real reasons for voting someone at this point? >_>

I read this and found it very insightful

You don't need "real reasons" but your reasons are real (if you catch the difference) and I am content to hold you to what you said. Are you suggesting we shouldn't hold players accountable for what they say?

[Thor665]

Thor

1.) Did you truly find Die Prediger's post scummy?
2.) If not, where you just testing him?
3.) You did not quote him, but implied what he said. While I understand the implication you gave, it feels like a misrepresentation Do you accept that charge?
4.) Do you feel his vote on you was in any way OMGUS
5.) if so why? If not Why not?

1. That is a complicated question. During RVS the threshold of what is or is not scummy can be modified quite dramatically. I found it 'scummy enough' I suppose is the best way to describe it. I would certainly not advance a scum claim on those merits alone at any point other then during the very opening of a game, however.

2. I do not see this as mutually exclusive. Why would you think a vote has to be for either a perceived scum tell *or* to 'test' someone?

3. I did not imply what he said. I offered my interpretation of what he said. I accept that it was my interpretation. Do *you* think it was a misrep of him?

4. Going with the purest definition of OMGUS (oh my gawd, you suck - for the newbies). An OMGUS vote is a vote made on someone only because they are attacking/voting for you. I do not believe Die's vote was OMGUS.

5. He attempted to provide reasons for his counter vote. I am unimpressed by his reasons which is why I was pressuring him to justify the logic of his vote, but since his vote wasn't parsed "You're voting for me? Obv scum is obvious" it was not OMGUS.

I disagree with you as far as the 'it's okay to answer questions directed at others' because that then allows the person who was asked the question to frame their answer in a cop-out way by saying 'ah, what he said' instead of actually answering it themselves.

Aurorus answered a question that had already been answered, however, so I have zero issue with that specific point.

If I ask a question of someone I do not think I should need to say each and every time that I expect their answer to the question (if we're going that route I wish it to be understood that all my questions will have this caveat attached to them even if I do not type it out)

[Thor665]

No, of course not. Players should always be held accountable for what they say. You can still hold me to my statement that I like the punctuation, namely the square brackets "[" and "]", for as long as you like. I prefer BB code to HTML for this very reason.

I am holding you to the implied statement that you believe you should lynch players whom you might look positively upon for reasons other then their actions. Clearly you prefer certain punctuation - do you also perhaps prefer certain avatar types, or maybe certain font color?

Do you believe you will have difficulty lynching someone if they have certain traits you enjoy even though they are the more obvious scummy player?

If not, why vote [no] over it? If so, I think the rest of the players ought to know about this difficulty of yours.

What is your read of Pulindar hopping in to defend you from answering a question meant for someone else? Clearly since you apologized for it you accept answering other people's questions to be at least scummy or improper on some level. Do you think he was defending you to get you to like him more, or to attack Die's in an off-hand manner, or to simply be a player who is offering his read on the scumtell?

Do you still believe answering others' questions is bad for town?

[Thor665]

I found Die's decision a scum-tell, as there's no particular reason to avoid an L-3, IMO. At least, it's the most scum-tell post I have found so far ITT

unvote: Die Prediger
Vote: [no]

It's not the scummiest thing I've seen just yet. Seriously though, L-1 on page two over that? A couple of questions for you;

1. What is your experience with Mafia (how many games have you completed and in what formats - rough estimates are fine)

2. Why do you think what Die did was so scummy? Is there anything else he did, or was it only the L-3 comment?

[Thor665]

"Die Prediger" is at L-1 now, right? This is an unnerving situation, made even more unnerving by the fact that [no] hasn't even given the illusion of (even a random) reason...

Should someone take their vote off him just in case he's a townie and the mafia quick-hammers on him?

Generally speaking mafia quick hammers do not worry me - as that is a *very* obvious scummy thing to do. However, in Newbie games and with newbie actions I agree with you that it is a little unnerving to see since Newbs will quickhammer for newb reasons regardless of being scum or not.

Why do you think [no] didn't even give an "illusion of a reason?" He stated what he voted Die over - what makes you feel that doesn't even count as an RVS vote?

[Thor665]

Why do you think [no] didn't even give an "illusion of a reason?" He stated what he voted Die over - what makes you feel that doesn't even count as an RVS vote?

Eh, I'll withdraw this - he clarified after you had asked him to clarify. I blame Vel-Rahn because he's not likely to defend himself.

I'll rephrase the question to asking you to offer your opinions of [no]'s stated logic now that you've heard it.

Partially, yes. But I won't bandwagon if i don't think it has any sense to it. I also thought that possibly the previous users who were voted before him were potential scum and therefore didn't want to vote for them, but then i realized i was one of them (and i am not scum) so...

I'm going to state what I believe you are saying here - if I am incorrect please let me know where.

You are okay with bandwagoning someone early in the day as long as you think they are guilty (ergo, you believe Die is guilty)
You think the other people who had been voted were all scum...but then realized one of them was you and so cleared them and focused on Die again for his scummy actions.

Pulinder, our noble if oft sniped IC, was one of the people who had been voted earlier. Do you think he is town?

Why wouldn't it be possible for me to be scum and just trying to work a quick lynch on Die at this stage of the game? If you trust the logic I am using to lynch Die then it appears you trust me - why is this? I haven't done anything that brilliant yet (or possibly ever)

[Thor665]

Hrmmm these past few hours have been interesting. Though I'd like to hear the other players soon.

I do hope you include yourself on that list. Here's a question for you to help you in that process; Whom do you currently find most scummy and why?

@Experienced players:
Do you prefer playing as mafia or town, and why?

From the threads I was trying to read inbetween my last game ending and this one, I've come to the conclusion that there really is no such thing as a "scumtell". As in, there's never something that you can look at and say "He did X, so he's definitely scum". Would you agree? Whether you do or not, what is your personal approach to scumhunting?

By dint of my slot, if not my personal opinion, I shall presume these are the questions you intended for me.

1. It is hard to say because I've only been Mafia once and I don't really believe that game counts since I was replacing in and the game was decided before my first post.

2. Every single individual scumtell I've ever seen is subjective, not objective. As such, there is no master blueprint of what is or is not scummy other then what the individual player believes is so.

String enough individuals together however and you can actually do pretty well in looking for scum since there are certain patterns that by dint of their role they are obligated to live by. Patterns are scummy, and scumtells are subjective would thus be my more concise answer.

My personal approach to scumhunting is to ask a lot of questions and force opinions into the open.

Here's two questions for you;

1. What do you see as the benefit in asking generic theory questions to players as opposed to specific questions about the game? Asking me these generic questions will bring you no closer to getting a read on my actions in this game, and whether I am scum or town I am likely to answer them the same way. What's the gain?

2. Why no vote yet? Do you not think any useful information has come forth at this point?

[Thor665]

I'm going to unvote for now

Do you or do you not still suspect Die is scum?

If you do, why unvote?
If you don't what did he do to change your mind?

If die ended up getting lynched and it was shown he was a townie (Death's show whom that person was, right?) Then I would be somewhat suspicious of you and no. You for starting the flame against him and no for the vote with no reason.

Deaths do show results of town/scum/role in Newbie games (and generally in all games on Mafiascum though I have seen exceptions.

Why is Pulindar not on your list of people to suspect if Die flips town?

[Thor665]

Not that I think

no

useful information has come, but that

not enough

has come forth. I am still analyzing all of you, and I will place my vote when I have a reason enough to do so. It seems like you're trying to pressure me into voting. Why?

Because votes are the best and most easily traceable information. Also, I feel we already have a pretty good amount of information out there to be looked over for scumtells and couldn't figure out why you hadn't voted.

If you're not comfortable with voting yet please tell me whom you suspect most and why.

Do you or do you not still suspect Die is scum?

I don't think I have enough info yet. I am however keeping watch

Why did you vote him earlier then? You either had enough information then or you do not have enough information now. If he was worth voting for then why isn't he worth voting now?

I think because its a what if scenario, he may have been added on (for me he just seemed to be hopping on and agreeing with you?).

So, if I understand you correctly - someone starting a lynch wagon (me) = potential suspect.
The target of a lynch wagon (Die) = potential suspect
Guy who just "hopped on" a lynch wagon without providing his reasons (Pulindar) = not a suspect

Am I missing something here, or do you actually believe this? If you believe this why do you believe that scum wouldn't want to just sort of agree with someone and hop on a lynch wagon without saying why?

[Thor665]

And your answer was that you apparently no longer think an early lynch is a good idea. I was hoping for something a little better but if that's where you're going;

What happened here to change your opinion of early lynches?

[Thor665]

I right now slightly suspect die (keyword slightly) from his reactions. If he was lynched and was a townie i would have suspected you and no and slightly suspect pulindar.

Good to see Pulindar added to the list, though perhaps only through my abuse of you over it. Okay, now here's the $15 million dollar question;

If you suspect someone and are on a wagon (as you were/are with Die) and the target is lynched and flipped town...why in the universe would you suspect all the people on that wagon if you believed the person you were voting for seemed suspicious? Yeah, scum vote town but it is a sad truth in this game that town vote town quite a bit too. Unless you can justify something about the way they acted in getting on the wagon that is scummy, simply being on the wagon of a townie lynch is not scummy.

Feel free to hold to your own beliefs in that regard, but I personally find your expressed logic potentially dangerous to the town if you are a townie. Other then that I have no issue with your current plots - please continue.

now i feel you are just being aggressive to find mafia

Dear sir, if you think I'm aggressive you should wait and see some of the fellows from the "regular" Mafia games here. I'm a pussycat.

As currently stands - clearly [no] is working hard to dig himself a nice hole but I'm still getting such newbish vibes off of him it is hard to read clearly. I'm lukewarm about the timing of Jerako's vote and that right after his claimed need to assess more he promptly hops on what is clearly the hottest wagon around.

@Pulindar, I'm surprised you called out [no] without addressing the newbie issue. What's your read there?

Also, what was up with your RVS (now returned) of Nacho for 'reading you well'. Presumably if you're town you wouldn't worry about a scum reading you, because they already know who is town, so the logical presumption is you are scum afraid of town Nacho's foresight into your methods. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

[joke]Thor, I get that [no] might just be a new player...

Except...well, I'm not getting a totally newbie vibe from [no] - after all, he said that he's "played elsewhere, though this is his first time on this site" (I paraphrased). His posts seem more intelligent/knowledgeable of the game than his first actions do...

Congratulations, you have just moved up my scum list a little. As a prize I present to you a link showing what [no] actually said. He's played one game elsewhere, that's not a lot of experience. Also, coming from another site who knows what the meta there is like or how they handle/instruct newbies and quickhammers?

If you disagree with me, please provide the posts [no] has made that suggests his knowledgable status about Mafia.

How far does someone's "newbie" status affect your interaction with them in this game? By interaction, I mean not only your direct and indirect conversational interaction with them, but also your willingness to suspect them and so on.

100%

If I think someone is newbie then that is part of my read of who they are. If something affects my read of who they are and how they act it affects my scumdar (a fashionable scum radar) in an absolute sense. I am also affected if I believe there are language barriers (is English their first language). This is why I already said early that I was having a hard time seeing through the cloud of newbie reads on [no] to decide if they were scum reads. He has done things that, if he was an experienced player, I would have already absolutely tried to lynch him over. But he's not an experienced player and consequently I have to consider that in my judgment.

[Thor665]

2. You didnt read properly the very first Mods post, where we can find, very easily the phrase:

9 Alive means 5 to Lynch

Haven't we been answering a handful of questions (one of them from you) by quoting the Mod's initial post? Why is it legit for you and not legit for [no]?

@[no] - please provide a link to this other forum site you played on (preferably to the game in question where you played and did poorly).

@silverbullet - because you'll invariably be hearing this a lot in the regular forum. Most players prefer that you have an avatar so they can associate the picture with the actions. I personally am indifferent but it's something to consider.

[Thor665]

And there we have a big difference.

I asked something that wasnt in the MODS post, so you DID NOT QUOTED IT from there. Also, that didnt influence in my actions.

Actually the twilight question was in the mod's first post and someone (pulindar?) did quote it to you. Why are you yelling about this?

But about [no], he acted before he knew something? Or he is lying about that and wanted a quick lynch to take one of the townies out?

I agree, that is the situation we are looking at. Which do you believe to be the case? I am betting on the former.

And now, the gold question for you: What are you trying to do when you help [no] about my case on him? Are you afraid that he can be lynched?

I am not afraid he can be lynched except insomuch as I believe his lynch currently stands a good situation of being a mislynch for being newbie as opposed to a scum lynch for being scummy. I have expressed this opinion clearly previously in this thread.

Why does it concern you at all that I wish to discuss the potential that [no]'s actions were newbie generated as opposed to scum generated? We don't have all the information we need yet (we still don't even have any reads on two of the players) and I feel obligating you to defend why you're so excited about this "scum tell" you've found on him is well worth discussing.

If you're so sure he's scum why did you wait for Aurorus to unvote before you voted him? Also, what is your read of him now that you've seen his previous game experience and how does that affect your scum tell on him? (if you say it doesn't affect your scum tell at all I fully intend to vote for you, so please put some thought into it)

[quote="silverbullet999]Where the hell is hiphop... can i prod him?[/quote]
Please reference Rule number 6 under miscellaneous on the first page. The way you request prods is to bold it for the mod to see (mods handle all prods except in special setups) - since it has not yet been 48 hours it's a little premature for the prod request, but I agree that this should be done come Thursday.

[Thor665]

I found your vote post odd. For one, if Die's scumtell wasn't the scummiest thing you had seen, then why were you voting him as opposed to voting the person who dropped the bigger scumtell?

...huh? I brought that up because of [no]'s action. I then unvote Die and vote [no], which seems to be self-explanatory as far as your question.

Also, you say that you give newbies breathing room early even if they do things that you would've tried to lynch more experienced players over already. Why didn't you give [no] any breathing room here?

Kindly reference your own answer about newbies. One cannot extract newbie tells out of whole cloth, pressure must be added to the mix with a slight simmering of accusations before the newbie flavor comes out.

Also, hi Nacho, I helped lynch you once.

What is your read of Pulindar's obvious buddying attempts with me?

[Thor665]

1. Is this always your gamestyle? If not, considering you are town now, do you act different when being a mafia?

That's an interesting question that I'm afraid I cannot properly answer for you. I've never had a game on mafiascum as scum (well, except one, but I replaced in during night phase for a player who flaked and had a cop identify me before I'd even posted once - so there's not much to get off my scum meta in that one). I would certainly hope that I would play differently in some ways, but probably not in a dramatic way. Certainly my gamestyle was not really different the time I played a Cop or a Doc - if that helps.

2. Isnt your gamestyle so "perfect" we can think you are a very good player surrounded by some newbies that would buy that you are town by that gamestyle?

My gameplay is "perfect" because I am full of awesome. As far as your question here, I'm not sure I'm following it - you appear to be asking me to justify why I am acting so much like a townie and not doing anything scummy? My reverse of the question would be - why aren't all of you who are also townies doing the same so it will be easy to find scum? I see no value in having to defend myself for acting too townish.

How this kind of gameplay is seen in the experienced games of mafia?

Favorably.

To answer your twilight question;

8. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players may continue to post.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief “Bah!”-type post.

@Nachomamma8 - who is your current top suspect and why aren't you voting them?

@silverbullet - your last two posts contained no scumhunting (and I looked twice, wearing glasses even) here's a question to help you out; do you currently think [no]'s vote that put Die at L-1 was due to newbiness or due to scumminess, and why is that?

[Thor665]

I played this way in my first game and guess what: NK on N1. Why? No one suspected me, so I was useless to mafia. Does this happens often? Mafia players use to kill those who are certainly town?

Yes, Mafia generally kill the most helpful players to town (be it power roles, proven townies, et al) I have been NKed Night 1 once, and in almost all my other games was at least discussed heavily as a likely Night 1 target by the scum team. This doesn't worry me, as there's always another game on mafiascum, and them killing me is in some ways a compliment in any case. Besides, town's goal is to catch scum, not to last till the end of the game. Barring a slick Doc; *somebody* is going to be NKed Night 1, that's just the way it goes.

I personally see no advantage to town playing scummy in the hopes scum ignore you. Yeah, that might work, but so what? By the time you get to endgame everyone thinks you are scummy and it's easier for the mafia to get you lynched.

So all the players tend to play that way? Or are there other gameplay ways that the players like?

There are as many different playstyles as there are stars in the sky, my child. I have never had anyone accuse my general play style of being obnoxious or bothersome or scummy. There are other players whose playstyle is called one or all of those things. Some of those players are quite good at Mafia, so my advice is generally to go with what you think works - that's probably the best plot.

Thanks, i had not seen it. But i dont think it changes anything about the bandwagon vote by [no]. My question was not directly related to any action.

Ah, ah, ah. You *did* express doubt of [no] because of him apparently not knowing the rules that were written on the first page. This does at least show it's a mistake town can make and thus it isn't a valid scum tell (unless you're also scum and [no] is your partner). To my mind it just adds to the newb cloud around [no]. Yeah, he might be newb scum, but I want to see more scum evidence and less newb evidence.

@[no] - who are you voting right now? If you're not voting anyone why is that? (if your answer is that you don't have any good suspects - my next question will be "what are you doing to find scummy suspects?" feel free to answer that one too if you need to.)

[Thor665]

@hiphop - why is it important for you to establish that you have played more games then Pulindar?

We currently have two wagons that are in interesting competition with each other. One is [no] for suspicious speed in putting Die at L-1. The other is Die for aggressive, and perhaps poorly worded, assaults on [no].

It is possible the Die wagon has been started/encouraged by [no]'s scumbuddy as a way to protect his foolish/newbish partner. Conversely, [no] is potentially a very easy target for scum to lynch (not that Die isn't competing for the honor), and scum like that and would be likely to slip onto the wagon.

@Aurorus - why do you have no interest in the current two big wagons?

@Pulindar - you had previously expressed the belief that [no] was scum distancing/bussing his partner Die. How do you feel about this theory at this point?

[Thor665]

In other news, Jerako is building a very good case against [no], but I'm finding it hard to distinguish between a newbie scum contradicting himself, and a newbie townie contradicting himself.

That's always the tough part. My very first game (where Nacho's neck was stretched a touch) involved a player known as maluski who basically opened the day with the comment "hey guys, if I do anything scummy then please tell me so I can stop doing it."

Vanilla Townie. (though we actually didn't lynch him till Day 3)

So, yeah, sometimes the blatantly obvious guy is town (and sometimes he's just blatant obvious scum)

I like aspects of Jerako's case (specifically I like the "second" contradiction) I think that's the most scummy thing we have on [no] right now.

@silverbullet - what is your feeling about how thus far all the scumhunting has been focused on the 'newbie' players and not on the 'experienced' players?

[Thor665]

So you see no reason to maybe try to scumhunt the more experienced players now?

I'm pressuring you about scumhunting because I'm not feeling a lot from your actions thus far. As a second question - whom do you feel you are investigating right now (and while we're at it, why)?

[Thor665]

With no looking for a replacement... i feel like it's a mega sign but I will wait as to everyone else's thoughts before starting an action.

If [no] replacing out is a "mega-sign" why do you need others to move first? Shouldn't you move, so you can show us the "mega-sign" and lead the way to lynching the scum?

It's funny that you mention this though as I was thinking of posting messages toward everyone so far to perhaps stir some things up and get some reads of my own (meaning from my actions) though I will pause this for now in reaction to no's replacing.

Why should [no] replacing out affect your drive to get reads on other players? Especially since you specifically mentioned two players who you have no read on - that seems something you should be trying to solve proactively rather then sitting back and hoping someone will do it for you. If you lack a read or you feel someone isn't doing something they should - then *you* should do something about it.

Otherwise you appear to be trying to sit quietly in the background and add very little so as to avoid being read.

For me this is a potential scumtell.

Unvote: [no]
Vote: silverbullet999

Methinks the lemon's gut might have been on to something.

@Everyone Do you find no's replacement as scummy, and do you think he should be lynched asap? If so/not why?

I think this is our first policy lynch concept this game (Policy Lynch = a lynch based off of a set rule that never changes. e.g. - always lynch anyone who lies, always lynch anyone who lurks, always lynch anyone who replaces out, et al)

Personally I am lukewarm about most policy lynch concepts (I will also warn you that many players actually consider the very concept of using policy lynches to be scummy, be forewarned in other games). I am certainly against a 'lynch anyone who replaces out' policy unless you can show me evidence that more then ::insert base mathematic ratio of scum to town in Newbie games::% of people who replace out in Newbies have a scum role.

Basically, if your policy lynch catches people provably more often then going 'eeny-meeny-miney-moe' I will be in favor of it. Otherwise I am against it.

[Thor665]

I feel like it's a mega sign that he replaced but other than that and the initial vote he made on die way back when, I don't have much evidence.

Why are scum more likely to replace out then town?

I have made my presence and opinion known and have also answered any questions that were asked of me. If my answers don't enable you to get a read on me, i apologize and don't know what else to say. As I said to lemon, feel free to ask me any other questions that you feel would give you a better read. But don't suspect me for being somewhat indecisive and not on a full blown attack on anyone.

"Hai guyz, I'll be reactive but no will due hunting for scummorz. do n0t suspectz me! kthxbye."

Town wins when we catch scum. You answering questions might help others catch scum. You actually helping to catch scum while also answering questions will be even better though, yes?

Also, your idea of waiting till Day 2 to scumhunt on 4 of the players seems insane. Why should we wait when we can begin scumhunting them now?

@Sauron - since your name implies you are obvious scum soon we shall lynch you. Prior to that, if you could address any outstanding questions to [no] that would be excellent in my opinion.

[Thor665]

TL:DR version;

I refute silverbullet's claims of putting words in his mouth and continue to pressure him on his desire to lynch [no] for replacing out. I also respond to his questions, explain how I've been scumhunting more people then he thought, and disagree that I was 'confident' in my vote on Die.

===============Long Version==============

Why are scum more likely to replace out then town?

When did I say this?

As soon as you indicated that him replacing out was a mega tell. Either replacing out is a tell or it is not, and you have openly stated that one of the primary reasons you are voting [no] is because he replaced out.

Therefore I presume you have knowledge that shows when someone replaces out it makes them scum. Is it only when they replace out while being attacked that it makes them scum? What is the part about replacing out that is a mega-tell?

I suspect no and die as I have stated many times already. I'm more sure about no now. These are based off of reactions caused by YOU AND OTHERS. I like analyzing the discussions and putting in my thoughts which is what I have been doing.

Sitting back and analyzing can and will be thought of as potential behavior of someone who is flying under the radar. Stating that you are getting all your reads off the work of others is not a totally unreasonable standpoint - but then neither is my stance. We both agree that you haven't been scumhunting, the only question is whether or not it is relevant for me to suggest it is scummy or not.

Also, your idea of waiting till Day 2 to scumhunt on 4 of the players seems insane. Why should we wait when we can begin scumhunting them now?

AGAIN you put words in my mouth, I said I would start scumhunting the others after the events of the night and new day (if I end up surviving...). The reason is that I have quite a few theories if no flips either way and who the scum decides to try to kill during the night. I think I'll be able to read a bit from those events.

NOWHERE DO I SAY WE

...

Okay - replace the 'we' in my commentary with a 'you' and I still feel just as strongly about it. Why do 'you' plan not to scumhunt four players until Day 2? This plan seems insane.

I think it's a fine idea to scumhunt the other players now as well but as I have stated time and time again... (and you can't seem to get it through your thick skull, or are simply ignoring it)... I am not sure how to go about scumhunting. I have an idea but again I'm not fully confident in it yet.

Okay, so now we're saying that you are only planning to hunt them on Day 2 because you won't know how to scumhunt till then. Fair enough. I would advocate asking them questions that pertain to their actions, that's my usual style. I also know a few players who get very serious analyzing voting patterns and/or activity levels. I also know players who just go off gut reads, vote people, and gauge reactions.

If you believe you have an idea of how to scumhunt, I would suggest going with that one as it will probably be at least personally comfortable for you.

Also don't summarize a quote like you did with the uber noob speak "hai guyz blah blah blah" It pisses me off

Seeing as how this is a game, consider the request honored. I will caution you though - if you find me abrasive and difficult to deal with you may have a rough time in other game threads.

Thor you were the initial one that started the flames on die. Though you did unvote to prevent his lynching, why?

For the reasons stated at the time - it was *far* too early to lynch someone. Do you think i should have tried to lynch him right then?

You seemed quite confident initially and had a bit of a power run but you soon stopped and turned the flames on no (and I believe rightfully so). However you more or less believe that no's vote was through newb mistakes and not that scum tells. Am I correct in saying this about you?

You are correct on everything except the 'confident' part.

you keep pushing me to scumhunt others... but you yourself just seem to be focusing on one person at a time. First die, then no, now me. Is this just your method to get a read on each person one at a time? If not then why haven't you yourself scumhunted everyone in general?

Actually I feel I've also scumhunted Pulindar, the Lemon, and have shot cannon over the bow of both Nacho and hiphop though neither have yet returned/responded to allow me to delve deeper into them. You agree I've scumhunted Die and [no] as well as yourself. A vote is not the only way to scumhunt, as I have said.

Thor : "hai guyz im askin people questionz and acusing peoplez and being the leador! don suspec me cuz im scumhuntin and if im scumhuntin there are no way i am scum!"

I agree with you here, we need more of this kind of sense in the thread.

[Thor665]

TL:DR version;

What's that mean?

Too long; didn't read.

Many players here tend to consider anything over two sentences to be too much effort to waste their mighty attention spans upon, and that anything worth saying can be said shortly and succinctly. I consider it silly, but occasionally seek to accommodate the desire out of deference and to perhaps test the validity of a hypothesis I have about how much weight a given post carries depending upon its length.

frankly why you aren't somewhat concerned about this yourself frightens me a little. What's your take on him replacing and why do you think he replaced?

Frightened? Why? I don't consider replacing out a scumtell. I see people replace out of games constantly and have never seen a connection betwixt and between it and being scum. If you want me to be worried about the scumtell you need to convince me of its worth. My suspicion is he didn't like the pressure and wasn't feeling as though the game was fun - it also may have been a departure for personal reasons. Neither likelihood results in him being scum any more then it results in him being town. Hence, in my opinion, it is a null tell. A tell that signifies neither scum nor town activity.

Also I know it's early but whats your read on Sauron and the position he's now been put in?

I do not envy any player replacing into a spot that is considered scummy by multiple other players. Other then that I have no read on him other then the reads I had on [no].

I feel that any rough times i have with threads may just end up in me including a bit of anger... and the occasional cuss (if that's allowed?)

It is, within reason. Personally I think most players here curse too much, but to each their own. I prefer to try to focus on the game/fun aspect of it, but for some winning=fun and being serious is part of what they need to do. I'm sure you'll discover your own contented mix eventually...or have a psychotic breakdown.

I guess my question is that "the flames" have been on die, no, and now me (so to speak)... will the flames eventually reach pul and the lemon? Or have do you feel that you have already put them under the flames and felt that they were ok for now? If you did may I ask how you came to this conclusion? Also Jerako seems to have been skipped (just pointing it out, no criticism meant).

Why shouldn't you criticize me if you feel I haven't scumhunted Jerako? Personally I disagree with this assessment, but I see no reason for it not to worry you if you believe it to be true and believe I have scumhunted everyone else.

The "flames", as you choose to put it, are turned up when and if I feel there is a need for more pressure. I am not comfortable at this time suggesting there is anyone I am ok with (I am not). I will say there are a few players of whom I would be more comfortable lynching then others. I am willing to discuss them and those reasons more so then discussing why I may or may not have cleared anyone or what tells I consider townish at this particular point.

[Thor665]

I am glad to see your opinion of no and why you believe he left.

Why?

I'll ask then whom the players are that you'd feel most comfortable lynching and why.

You first-most as I find certain of your actions to be appeasing in nature, and you seem to be more focused on trying to look non-scummy then you are in trying to look for scum.

2nd will probably be [no]/Sauron for the "second contradiction" Jerako noted. I was unimpressed by the first but I believe that this second one is a potential scumtell and really wish [no] had responded to it prior to popping away. At the very least that slip up looked a touch genuine scummy rather then just confused newbie.

After that it becomes a more general muddle. I'll probably just say both Nacho and hiphop simply because they haven't given enough commentary for any read yet, and in its own way that is dangerous to the town. Beyond that the levels of preference probably become too fine to distinguish between as I debate tells that are exceedingly minor and weak. I figure 2-4 names should be more then ample at this stage though.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

silverbullet is scummy and is trying to hide it behind false emotions.
hiphop asks odd scumhunt/experience questions - what's up with that?
Nachomamma is obv. lurker.
silverbullet is scummier to me then [no].
Die's 2 experienced players on the mafia team idea is silly, but I want aspects considered and want to know what he'll do about it.


============================================

Well I wanted to know your reasons as to why you believed no left... and you told me... so... that's why i'm glad.

My reasons were already out there (not believing replacing out is scummy) and also my deduction is still disagreeing with yours. This looks like you're trying to go the friendly route now that the angry route didn't work so much for you.

Could you elaborate more as to my appeasing nature?

See above. I see you doing multiple moments of this sort of action - saying nice things over stuff that there is really no reason to be nice over. You also did it earlier when Aurorus was pressuring you, basically shrugging and mentioning that you were joking with promises to get more serious and involved.

Could you make a prediction as to who you think will end up being lynched on day 1?

What would this accomplish? Within the course of a week it is amazing sometimes to see how much vote wagons can shift and move within the span of a few hours. I predict a 1/3 chance we shall lynch scum, and a 2/3 chance we shall lynch town/power role.

i do have to say that pulindar took it quite well.

Did you consider this a test for a scummy reaction? What about it did he 'take well'?

Sorry for the absesne, but my internet's out at the house.

Limited Acess for the next couple of days or so.

Obvious lurker is obvious

*Thor - it seems you think that SB is giving you scum-tells than a newb-tells; what has he done, that [no] hasn't, to convince you of this?

Good question.

I will open with a stated belief that [no] is pretty scummy, and though I was questioning his newbishness I was also voting him for reasons thereof. So take the following defense with that in mind;

Well, for starters, he has actually done some stuff I feel is scummy. [no] did one thing (the vote) and then had people explode on him. He also clearly had some language barrier issues which didn't serve him well as people got into lengthy debates with him and tried to point to his fumbling as scum tells (yeah, he was fumbling...as he wrote in his 2nd language, brilliant observation)

So he absorbs a lot of early heat for a relatively minor scumtell (that I feel was actually perfectly defended when he posted up his previous game).

silverbullet, meanwhile, sort of feels scummy to me. His angry explosion at me (where he includes requests not to have me use l33t speak at him...and then uses l33t speak at me) speaks a bit to me of someone who was maybe not so much angry as they were nervous of being caught. He then quickly calms down and becomes Mr. Agreeable as he talks with and compliments me. Again, this leaves me uneasy as regards him because it feels as though all of these actions are built towards getting me off his back.

I've also played a couple newbie/regular games before where the 'why aren't you scumhunting' charge has been leveled at players. Usually the answer of town players is to say 'I am scumhunting' and to offer examples. It rung as slightly false to me how quickly silverbullet folded on that accusation.

Am I 100% on silverbullet? Definitely not.
Do I think he's one of the scummiest players thus far? Yes.

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

Even if this is true it can only really apply to Pulindar and myself since Nacho and hiphop were not participating at that time.

It would be good to start considering this 3rd option: we can have 2 experienced players in the mafia.

Though I do not think it is reasonable to presume both Mafia are experienced at this time, I otherwise like that you desire to suspect the experienced players. What are you planning to do with this thought?

[Thor665]

YOU STUPID SMURFING SMURF I'VE EXPLAINED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES ALREADY

You are almost undoubtedly pushing the barrier or 'reasonable foul language' the board allows. I would suggest you tamp it back. If the game makes you this angry with the way hiphop came at you, you'll probably not enjoy the games here.

ANSWER THOR'S QUESTIONS THAT HE SHOT AT YOU AWHILE BACK.

He did, actually. (though now he has a brand new shiny one.

@silverbullet - how scummy do you find lurking? Your use of it as a pejorative suggests a certain disdain for it.

[Thor665]

As for the first part, there's a method i'm going for that I'd rather not reveal...

If you feel your method will help you catch scum, more power to you, just be aware that some scumhunting methods look scummy.

In the meantime I would like to point out that silverbullet basically just admitted I was correct in reading his angry outbursts as a put on front of emotion. I would like everyone to acknowledge my brilliance at this point. Cookies are always appreciated.

@Jerako - what is your read on [no] replacing out? Also, how do you feel about my stated attitude of it not being that impressive to catch a English as second language player in word traps?

[Thor665]

TL:DR

I'm responding to all of Pulindar's stuff. If that interests you, great! If not, then I have wasted a lot of time typing brilliant and witty answers.

===============================================

1.) If that was your favorite point, why did you not press for more on the other points?
2.) Did you find anything suspect in Jerako's case against [no]?
3.) What policy lynches do you typically condone?
4.) have you ever been lynched for condoning policy lynches?
5.) why would you ask something so generally [of Sauron], rather than stating specifics?
6.) Do you actually have any questions for Sauron?
7.) does being rude help you catch scum?
8.) Do you realize this is a learning game and should be a friendly environment?
9.) do you think everyone will see it the same way your summary puts it?
10.) do you think you are leading town around too much?
11.) what do you think of the other players, if you would a quick summary, since you have scum hunted most of them (you left Jerako out.)
12.) why did you leave Jerako off of your list?
13.) Why did you ignore Silver's question about not including Jerako in the list of people you had scumhunted?

1. ...why would I? (<--not rhetorical) I found those points meaningless on the whole and have explained why. I see little reason to scumhunt up what I consider a dead end.

2. I think he was pressing for scum tells by exploiting someone who spoke English as a 2nd language. That may or may not be scummy, I mostly consider it newbish since I recall doing pretty much the same thing back in my first game.

3. I am reasonably for lynching lurkers under active lurking charges (aka I support lynching non content providers). I generally also support lynching liars but that's more of a gray area. I also (though I am turning against this somewhat) support deadline lynches for a lynch's sake. Other then that I am unaware of any policy lynch my playstyle supports.

4. I have only ever been lynched once and do not even count it as a lynch of me (the aforementioned replace in cop investigation before my first post game)

5. I do not have a specific yet to ask him. Do you?

6. I feel asking him to respond to questions asked of the previous player in the slot is relevant (and we'd moved past his prior game experience by this point and back into his reads of other players and reactions to accusations, so I feel those are reasonable questions to request opinion on from a new player in the same slot)

7. I very rarely attempt to be rude, and honestly thought the l33t speak re-phrase was more playful then rude. It was not my intent to be rude to silverbullet at anytime thus far in this thread. I am occasionally more abrasive if I feel it is useful to the moment of the game. I have certainly seen abrasive play styles and tactics work and do not desire to totally rule them out of my methods, though they are a rare tool.

8. It is my understanding that the purpose of this game is two-fold. First, to teach the general methods of mafiascum.net, and second to prepare them for what they will experience in regular play on the site. I am unaware of any rule against rudeness here that is not also in effect in all other games on mafiascum.net. As a question to you, what relevance does this question have to anything?

9. I answer with a question (rhetorical); Do you think everyone sees anything the same way when any opinion is expressed?

10. What would you define as how I am leading them? Clarify my leadership as you see it and ask again and I'll offer my read on that. In a general sense I am reasonably content with how I'm playing the game, though I wish I had already figured out everyone's role by this stage.

11. A quick summary containing what information? I am somewhat against discussing certain aspects, as I have already said. Clarify what you wish and I will address this more. It sounds like you're asking for a list of every player and whether I suspect them or not.

12. I forgot to add his name to the list.

13. I don't think I did. I addressed that I disagreed with a suggestion I hadn't scumhunted Jerako and I questioned why it wouldn't concern silverbullet if he thought this. To my mind that was answering his question. What part of the question do you think I didn't address?

Nacho has given a very clear read of himself in my mind. I've played with him in four games so far, and based on his two posts I find that I'm leaning strongly towards town with him. I have seen him as both scum and as town and he has some very strong meta tells.

Is there a reason you don't share those strong meta tells at this point? Do you think town should just take your word on this one? I can understand you not wanting to clue him in on your meta read of him but...I feel like I'm being handed a horse pill with no water. Please pacify my concerns in some manner.

While this is true, I don't see being friendly as bad. Nor do I see joking a bit as bad. For instance, later in this post you joke about Nacho lurking when he is V/LA. If you were being serious I would clamor on you for misrepresenting.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Friendly, is not the scumtell I'm shopping on silver, friendly paired with his fake seeming (now admitted) angry outbursts seems scummy to me as he appeared to be trying to ward off suspicion through application of anger, sort of a modified OMGUS technique, if you will. (Get suspicious of me, will you? Fear the anger! But, hey, we can still be buds if you ease off.)

What is your feel of the buddying scumtell?

[Thor665]

Do you think, through your influence that most of the players are following what you are saying, and focusing in the directions you focus?
If yes, do you think this could hurt town?

Influence in a game like this is awarded by others, not claimed. I see some evidence that Aurorus seems agreeable to a lot of my expressed opinions, I also see the same from you. There is mostly agreement with my game theory posts and less so with my scumhunting posts though both have had a certain amount of adherents.

I think this influence could either hurt or help the town, and it tends to depend on whether or not my reads are accurate or not. At the very least if people 'trust' me it does on a basic statistical level help us since I'm not scum so we therefore have a better chance of lynching scum.

I suppose I was asking as toward your leans on each player, and if you wanted to give a reason why.

'Leans' seems to be simply another way of saying scum/town. I have already expressed a top four scumlist with reasoning, what more do you feel a desire to hear about and why do you think that information will be helpful?

Because I don't want to clue him into those tells and have him stop. Also I'm not 100% sure yet and want to watch a bit more.
No, not at all. I personally believe everyone should form their own opinions on people, but if an attack starts on Nacho I am liable to defend him if I continue to think he is town.

What is the expected advantage of announcing a town read on a player for reasons you prefer not to discuss? I basically feel that you cited meta here to add credence to a gut read.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Eh... I obviously disagree with that IC.

It's strange, he was a fan of yours

[Thor665]

Did you consider this a test for a scummy reaction? What about it did he 'take well'?

Nope, just a test of his reaction as a human being.

The fact that he actually said he was glad I had more experience. Instead of just ignoring it.

Do you find that the best way to gauge me is ask a single question, on the reasons of the info that I chose to share about my experience?

The only sane way to respond is 'yes, at the time I did think that was the best way to gauge you.'

What is your opinion of the logical fallacy 'appeal to experience'?

Now that you know Pulindar is a good human being, how will that help us find scum?

I however don't want to switch my vote to you, than Die proves to be more scummy and go back to him.

Considering that part of your case on silverbullet is based on the concept that he didn't want to put [no] at L-1 because he thought it would look scummy - what is your reasoning for not wanting to have to shift your votes around as your suspicions change?
---------------------------------------

Do you find hiphop's second post was him hopping on a bandwagon and trying to support your "flame" on me? Why/Why not?

'Hopping on a bandwagon' as a phrase seems to have negative connotations with some so I shall avoid it here and rephrase the response; I think it is fair to say that something you did and/or something I brought up about you appears to have triggered hiphop. Him voting for you as well and adding pressure reads as scumhunting to me, because voting a bandwagon you see as most likely to catch scum is a basic and intrinsic part of the game.

Would you agree that his questions were similar to yours?

Yes, and they continue to be so. However, I will say that certain of his explanations of the theory behind his scummy feelings are different in certain ways from my own. So I would not go so far as to suggest they are totally cribbed, perhaps it is simply a derivative work with its own copyright.

I do find it interesting that he is, in many ways, re-asking questions I have already posed you, but at the moment I see enough original work in the case he's presenting to not feel concerned by it.

What evidence do you have to back yourself up as not being scum besides the play style you are using right now (being leaderlike)?

You're asking me to prove a negative? That seems unproductive.

[Thor665]

When did I ever vote for SB?

You didn't. With discussion of hopping on a bandwagon I simply answered the question in a mindset presuming you had. Extract the 'vote' part of my answer post there and add, I dunno, 'pressure' and everything else still reads as intended.

Appeal to experience is basically implying that you believe someone/something because the person expressing that thought has 'experience'. When you took pains to mention how you were more experienced then Pulindar I saw it as a potential setting up of yourself as a better authority in case future disagreements arose.

Since your assault on silverbullet came after mine, what was your expected reaction from him when you chose to take an abrasive stance when accusing him? Do you usually play in a more abrasive/aggressive style?


@Sauron - what do you see as Jerako's self-contradictions?

[Thor665]

TL:DR

I disagree with some of Nacho's scumhunting reads, and question the reasoning of him clearing SB.
hiphop pressed SB, in a way which I feel should have been obvious that it would generate an angry retort, then cites the angry retort as scummy. I do not like this.
The Lemon and I are inside each other's heads, but I clarify what part of the game I felt the fruit was following me on and question some of his thoughts vis'a'vi me following him.


====================================

Hi, hi, I'm back, and silverbullet999 is town. Strangely enough, the reasons why I think he's town are the reasons Thor thinks he's scum :/.

I'll note that I am not a fan of your read here. Anger = town response...and then faked anger for a trap = town response? This seems silly. Please expound.

(Pulindar, trivia question: What player that we’ve both seen as scum is extremely prone to Appeals to Experience?).

Though I appreciate your agreement on the appeal to experience though I had - I see no value in this unless Pulindar's answer is going to be 'hiphop' otherwise it's quoting someone else's meta and suggesting it indemnifies hiphop.

Though as an interesting sidenote for myself, isn't this what we lynched you for in the last game I played with you? So, no scum points here for this specific aspect, but I don't see the logic behind any connection you can draw there unless all/most experienced Mafia are extremely prone to appeals to experience.

i don't ever

expect

any kind of reaction. I just go with what they give me. Am I supposed to say if he does this, it is scummy, and if he does this it is town?

I ask the question because I had been (very slightly) abrasive/aggressive towards him and had received an angry response. You then came in with a stronger level (in my opinion) of aggressive and abrasive play and got a stronger reaction from him.

You then cited this reaction as scummy and an appeal to emotion.

When you wrote your post, it seems fairly likely it would have been easy to expect his reaction would be heated in response which makes me wonder why you did so when you seem to consider anger a reasonable scumtell?

I also thank you for the links to your meta, I'll read them and get back to you on this, but would still like the above addressed.

Thor is very hard to read, though, and I’m more interested in trying to get stuff on him than you through the little debates.

I'm best read in Russian because it sounds awesome. If you're having trouble reading me is your plan really to sit back and try to only decipher me through my interactions with others? Though this is not an unreasonable plot in a general sense, why would you not also be working for more interaction between you and I?

I see some evidence that Thor has been following my votes. After I suggested someone unvoted Preacher, he changed his vote to [no], who I had RV’d on previously. He later focused on Silver after I’d voted him. Could it be that I’m agreeing with your opinions because...I already had similar opinions?

That's interesting, I hadn't noticed the vote following - when I commented on how you were agreeable with my thoughts I was actually only recalling the discussion of [no]'s newbishness which I obviously started and you became a quick convert of and noted specifically that you were agreeing with me on it.

Also, question; Are you legitimately claiming your RVS vote on [no] as something I 'followed'?

[Thor665]

Unvote

Some thoughts to follow.

[Thor665]

Okay, my unvote may have been too early, but I thought Die had just dropped Silverbullet at L-1 and am still uneasy about that in Newbie games in general and this one in particular at this point. But it seems he only put him at L-2. That said I want to collect some thoughts on Die and may be looking to move my vote in any case so I'm happy enough being unvoted just at this time.

TL:DR - The rest of this post is all about The Lemon's questions. My next post will be about Die's stuff.

At the moment, like almost everyone else, I'm getting strong townie-reads off of you. But I am often suspicious of anyone who seems townie, because I think scum can play a better town game than town sometimes.

I've been hearing slight variations on this thought throughout my playing time here on Mafiascum. This probably best sums up my opinion of the thought.

In my previous post, I said that I've found aspects of hiph0p similar to your own. [1] Are you worried that he seems to be shadowing you, or following your arguments too? [2] What about play style? I notice that you've made some leeway into considering his tone with regards to SB; what about in general?

[1] Am I worried he seems to agree with certain of my thoughts? Not right now. I think it was Pulindar who brought up the 'following' question, I've had no worries in that regard yet. It's quite possible we're both correct and SB is scum, in which case it's more worrisome that other people don't agree with us. It's Schrodinger's Cat right at the moment in any case.

[2] I don't have issues with his playstyle. As to the rest, I'm not sure what you're asking me here. I don't think I've made 'leeway' for hiphop's tone because I'm currently pressuring him as regards his chosen tone and method towards SB, so you've lost me here. Could you re-phrase and I'll try to clarify once I get your meaning.

Earlier in the game, silver fos'd you and Preacher and you because he thought you didn't unvote [no] in time. Then he changed to Pulindar when I pointed out you unvoted first. Do you think he's followed up on his FoSes?

No - that's why I was accusing him of not enough scumhunting earlier.
Did he FoS Pulindar? I recall you challenging him on that but I recall his vote staying on me at that time.

Would you say the same about hiph0p, who has fos'd Preacher and SB? Do you think that the Preacher is making things difficult, and do you think this is intentional?

I don't think hiphop has posted enough for me to comment on how well he's followed up his FOSes.
I do not think any difficulty coming from Die is intentional as neither town nor scum wish to be intentionally difficult. I also don't think he's being difficult - do you? Why?

Do you think FoSing in pairs is helpful? What do you make of people who rapidly change their votes like Pulindar? Does it make a difference if you consider that the Preacher has also done this?

Do all these questions count as the answer to my question of you as to why aren't you questioning me?

FOSing in and of itself is part of the game I'm indifferent about. I've never done an FOS and prefer to make my thoughts known through simply stating who I find suspicious and/or voting. I'm always bemused by the people who actually bold their FOSes and present them like a vote. i see nothing inherently pro or con about FOSing either singly, in pairs, or in triplicate. All it does is express suspicion.

People who rapidly change their votes do not concern me depending on how/why they rapidly change their votes. Speed of change and number of changes is not inherently scummy. The *reasons* behind the changes are what is or is not scummy.

[Thor665]

In my previous game a newbie was playing just like [no]. Flipped townie after lynched.

And you then pressured [no] heavily because...?

=========================
The above is what I consider the most relevant part of this post. Everything below is basic jabbing at Die, but I believe the above question really needs to be considered by others and answered by Die.
=========================

Die's 2 experienced players on the mafia team idea is silly, but I want aspects considered and want to know what he'll do about it.

Why it is silly?

The chances are 2/9 for everyone!

Because the logic behind it is silly

1. the experienced players will have an easier time moving a lynch on a Newbie
2. A Newbie is moving towards being lynched
3. Therefore 2 Exp. players are the scum team.

That is just silly as there is no logic to support the concept. Yes, statistics say it is 2/9 for any given player to be scum - but by you adding in that both of the players are experienced you're creating a 2/4 pool in your own head with no reasoning to back up your belief other then an arbitrary declaration.

Here's an example to consider;

1. I consider the letter 'u' scummy.
2. There are four players with the letter 'u' in their usernames.
3. Therefore 2 of them must be the scum team.

It's a 2/9 chance for anyone to be scum! I have just created a method that has the exact same chance of catching both scum as your method. Do you think my method is silly? (you should) If so, you have to be able to explain to me why your method is less silly then this before you should expect me to take it seriously.

I Will do an ISO on everybody in a couple of hours. Starting with you, if you are OK with that

I'm going to say no, I'm not okay with this, just to see if that effects your response.

Your language here suggests that you believe I am perhaps more likely scum then others believe, and includes a suggested warning of 'look out, I'll be ISOing you soon, buster' What do you see as the advantage in warning me that you'll be investigating me? I couldn't stop you if I wanted to, and making underlying implications that you think I'm guilty while admitting it's before you've even investigated me just seems odd.

If you're town my basic advice is - suspect everyone, and keep questioning preconceived beliefs. You'll only doom yourself if you decide *prior* to checking on someone whether or not you believe they are scum/innocent because all the evidence you see will be colored by this belief.

If you're scum, please continue as you are.

@Pulindar - I want to get your read here because you were suspecting Die earlier. I see a *lot* to be suspicious of in his last pile of postings. However, his defense of his '2 experienced players as the scum team' concept is so inherently flawed that I have to question whether the scum tells I'm picking up on are indeed tells or are just him floundering around and not knowing which way is up (a fancy way to say newb tells).

[Thor665]

Vote: silverbullet999

After some thought, I still really don't care for the false anger stuff and still see that as one of the better scumtells available. I am officially adding Die to my scumlist and think he shall go in alongside hiphop with both of them now higher then [no]/Sauron.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

Section 1 is replying to AurorusVox and requesting the bitter one's top two scum suspects.
Section 2 is reserved for Nacho, who may yet be my father, and has me still snubbing his meta AtEx arguement and discussing my thoughts on Die and some scumreads. I also request his read on Pulindar.
Section 3 is an explanation to Pulindar I should have done earlier.

=================Section 1=======================

"You're so townie, you must be scum" isn't what I think of you, by the way. It's just that I tend to like paying extra attention to the people who appear to be the most townie...

I'll accept that you believe there is a reasonable difference and leave it at that. In any case, expect me to keep growing increasingly dismissive the more I am asked any scumhunting questions with language along the lines of 'you're so townish, but...' included in it.

you've made a start on questioning [hiphop] about his tone re: SB, but I was wondering what you thought about the rest of his posts.

I'm finding him a bit of a mixed bag currently and am happy with his position on my scum list. That said, a lot of the noise I'm picking up might simply be differences in playstyle and the reason I'm fencing with him is to try to clarify for myself whether those differences are scummy or not.

What's your read on hiphop? Since we're on the same wavelength I can probably just copy you if you've already decided on a read.

He said that Pulindar replaced you, I believe. But he hasn't made much of an effort with regards to Pulindar.

Stop! (hammertime) Okay, look at what we've done here. You're asking me a question based on my opinion of an FOS you have just admitted that you're unsure of whether or not Die even made said FOS. This is silly. I'm going to look this one up for us, but in the future you should take this step first and I do hold the right to wonder why you didn't as soon as you realized there was confusion in the conversation.

Here's the post in question (above it is you correcting him about the voting order. He does not mention Pulindar as an FOS at this point which supports my recollection of events and answers the question for you as far as why he hasn't scumhunted Pulindar after an FOS that never happened. There is perhaps something there insomuch as he cleared Pulindar for doing something that I actually did, but that's all I see.

I think its been difficult for people to figure Preacher out over the last few days because he's not responded to questions asked of him...I do find it twigs my interest how Preacher comes back after not posting for a few days when there are a fair few questions aimed at him.

As a general rule I hate to answer these sorts of questions and would normally suggest you ask Die about it directly as only he can justify his own absences. That said, he has already given his reasons and I'll also add that the "last few days" were the weekend, which is usually a low post content period on the site.

I find it strange that you don't see any obvious downfalls in FoSing in groups. In my opinion, if everyone were to post their suspicions, it gives the mafia tons of information to play with during the night phase. At the moment, I think that FoSes (more specifically grouped FoSes) help the mafia more than the town.

If anyone is saying "I see X or Y as scum, let's lynch X today and Y tomorrow" I would agree with you. Otherwise I think it is important for town to discuss who their top handful of suspects are. Revealing this information is healthy because it can make it harder for scum to easily shift onto new wagons without looking odd doing so.

Who are your top two suspects by the way?


=================Section 2=======================

That quote wasn't meant for you, honey. I just find that experienced players use AtEx a lot more when scum; certain players are simply so full of themselves that they do it naturally, though (SEE: ABR).

Though I appreciate that you realize how sweet and delectable I am, I see no reason to even begin to consider that any given comment by a player isn't for everyone in the game. From what I've read of Mr. Rampage I'll agree with you there though.

I agree with your read on Die though. Fear of all the experienced players being on one scum team is a common newbie fallacy (used by newbscum to instill fear; newbtown when they're paranoid), and a newbie game wouldn't be complete without it.

Along with the inevitable comment about how there will be one newbie scum and one exp. scum...you're the experienced scum, right?

But, yes, Die clearly was flinging the scumtells from his pores here. What's your read on the newbie/scum axis he is currently dancing upon? You agree with me on the scumtell but what is your read on the nebtell aspects he's dropping?

Also, what's your read on Pulindar pre-setting up a meta claim to clear you?

=================Section 3=======================
I forgot to do this earlier - but Pulindar, my IC who made the 'there are no jokes' comment was actually a joke and referring to you in this game. Sorry to get your hopes up for the Pulindar fanclub - but you never know, maybe it will get started yet. I could design you a t-shirt.

[Thor665]

You are correct. I dont have anything serious on that. I just threw a possibility. And even if you think it is silly, it is not impossible. but it really bothered you.

It did bother me and I explained specifically why it bothered me. Do my reasons for being bothered seem strange? Do you think I should be more supportive of poor logic then I have been?

But you seem, again, bothered.
But really, i didnt mean anything like you thought.

Okay, so we have established that you believe I seem bothered by your posts (I was and am, so you're reading me correctly) now the question is, what are you going to do with that piece of information? When you just kind of quietly note a piece of information "hey, guys, look at him, he seems angry." or "Hey, doesn't Player X seem quiet?" You're providing what I refer to as softselling of a case - insofar as you're pointing out things that may or may not be scummy without actually saying whether or not you yourself think they are scummy.

I think soft selling is scummy.

What is your opinion of me being bothered, and why are you mentioning it?

[Thor665]

2) Who are my main FoSes - I'm not sure if you're trying to trick me here. Are you hoping I'll back down from my suspicion of group FoSes under pressure to provide them? Or am I just being paranoid?

Go read a handful of games in the non-Newbie section of the boards.
Feel free to ask me, Pulindar, Nacho, or hiphop for our two scummiest suspects (and also note that for the most part all four of us have been doing this off and on to some degree without even needing to be asked).

Feel free to draw your own conclusions/desires on the question, but it is not an unusual one to hear on this site so if you're against it be prepared to defend that standpoint vigorously and often (much as I do with my 'not revealing town tells' too early thing - it's a hot button meta-strategy discussion around here).

[Thor665]

TL:DR

Verbal sparring with silverbullet's scumhunting of me - I explain why I am obv. town, how hiphop and I are not playstyle clones, and why I had issues with L-1.
I offer advice to Aurorus because I have nothing brilliant to question the fruit on.
I catch Sauron tunneling like crazy and call him on it.
I ask a question for hiphop and am curious about Sauron and the Die case.


==============================================

Can you clarify in more detail the differences [between your play and hiphop's play]?

I feel like I should ask you to point out the similarities first. But my basic response is this - look at claiming you are scummy over your anger post. Both of us did it. However, I expressed my scum read as a feeling over the faked emotions of the anger posts, hiphop cited anger itself being a scumtell. Most of our posts are like this, we are each attacking the same point in many cases but both of us are citing different reasons for those accusations. I'll also note some points he's advanced I'm unimpressed by, and I suspect the reverse is true (certainly anything I'm pressuring him over I suspect he doesn't agree with )

Also, in the most general concept of 'play' I would say I tend to be more of a questioner/analyzer and he is more of a pressure-er/reaction reader as far as I can grok.

You're asking me to prove a negative? That seems unproductive.

This was in relation to you stating you are town. Not sure how this is proving a negative though. If you don't have any other evidence just say so.

You asked me to prove that I wasn't scum (and also listed a piece of evidence I couldn't use to do so) - I might as well ask you to prove you are not a pink unicorn. How could you readily do so? That is proving a negative, it's possible but is much more difficult then proving a positive.

I am town because I am acting in a pro town manner, I believe all of my votes, questions, assertions, and discussions have been intended to find scum and aid the town. If you disagree please show me where I'm acting in an anti-town or scummy manner and I will discuss it with you.

Well this is unexpected... What would it have mattered if I was at L-1? You say your uneasy about that especially in Newbie game... but why?

Newbies are all insane little adrenaline monkeys who run around with hammers while barely able to tell a scumtell from a towntell (which only puts me slightly above them). Until I am comfortable with the Day Phase ending in a lynch I will not be putting anyone at L-1 for fear of one of the aforementioned newbs deciding to use that hammer. That is why it mattered whether or not you were at L-1.

Question... if I end up getting lynched, when I flip town does this saying mean that everyone should be worried about you two?

This commentary by me shows that I would understand if they chose to suspect Pulindar and me, I would not go so far as to say they 'should' since who is to know what tells may or may not be on the table at that point. Investigating players who were part of a mislynch is a common tactic and I support it.

You seemed certain of me... but as soon as you thought I got to L-1 you take it back. If someone else votes for me will your vote stand?

That depends on who casts the vote, why, what evidence I have, and what time period it's happening in. If it were to happen tomorrow I would probably unvote you. If it were to happen five days from now...I dunno, I might, or I might be calling for your blood at that point.

Other than hiphop, I'm finding different things scummy about different people. There are crazy crazy Xanatos gambits* that I'd love to imagine were being played out, but I am prone to overcomplicating things, so I'm trying to keep it basic here.

I have this problem too (both over-complicating and loving the Tropes site). I will say, in general, things are rarely as complicated as you sometimes think. Generally scummy people are scum and townish people are townie. That said, never stop questioning, one of my worst games ever was because I basically shut down the questioning side and just started to go with preconceived notions too much.

Conclusion: I dont see (or i cant see) Thor revealing too much of himself. But...
1. He attacks people, asks a lot of questions (even some of them are not that useful)
2. In a part of this game, he asks a lot about the bandwagoning to some players. Here at this point i think he was fishing scum – Who would be interested on one of these lynches? This is the question i think he made for himself. And this is the point that makes me think that Thor is town. I can have missed other fish questions, though it would just compliment what I am saying.

This seems like a pair of weak arguments.
1. Strikes me as good town play
2. There is asking about bandwagons in a way that is basically "Hey, this dude's a good lynch, you wanna go ahead and lynch? I will if you will", and then there's Thor that reads far more like "I have my positions, and I think they're clear. Please clarify yours, and here's a springboard."

If you want to convince us Thor is scum, ya gotta do better than that. Of course, I don't expect the scum to make any better of an argument, so I'm not holding my breath in this regard.

I'm not sure whether to call this scummy as a misrep, scummy for attempted buddying, or simply bad reading comprehension.

I can't conceive of a misrep that bad, so I'm going to go with not enough reading comprehension and maybe some buddying.

@Sauron - you're tunneling. The reason you just attacked Die over this is because you're too excited and too convinced by the idea that Die is scum. Step back, re-look over your evidence. Everything he says doesn't have to be scummy.

Could you please offer a short summation (4 sentences or less) as to why you think Die is scummy?

@hiphop - what is your read on how I just interpreted Sauron's actions here? How does it affect your read of Die, if at all?

[Thor665]

My only question for you at this point is what you think of Die's reasonings for his vote for me. Personally I'm not sure to read it as a noob tell, scum tell, or simply a misunderstanding.

From what I've read on Die my opinion is the case is indeed newbie.
The case is also possibly town or scum and I am not sure of my feelings on that. Nothing about the case seems inherently scummy, but that doesn't mean it's a case being pushed by town, if you get the distinction.
I do not see a misunderstanding in his accusations on you as the case is as coherent as Die's other postings. He has seemed fairly clear about what he thinks you have done that he considers scummy.

Could you re-state your case on Die please?


=======================Boring Rules Part=================================

And general question as to the topic of getting lynched.
# Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players may continue to post.
# Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief “Bah!”-type post.

I'm interpreting the first rule as, whomever ends up getting enough votes to be lynched will still be allowed to make arguments, the person will still get lynched nonetheless but will be allowed to post whatever until his death scene.

The bah post must be brief and can maybe contain some suggestions and thats it.

Are these interpretations correct?

The way I read it and play it is as follows;

Once you are lynched you are killed, as it says in the rules; "Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill)" the death scene has *nothing* to do with killing you. The lynch is what kills you. Therefore once you are lynched you are only allowed one post.

The Bah post may not contain any suggestions other then something exceedingly generic (e.g. Go Town! or Scum will win! or Bah, you fools...) that is it - you may not include suggestions as that is content relevant to the game.

[Thor665]

If you see something wrong with my case please tell me thor as I stated before... it's possible that I'm just misinterpreting things or something of the sort.

I look at his response to you as translating thusly; "you're right, I did give two separate reasons for the vote. I claim both of them as worthwhile."

Though in other news

Unvote:silverbullet999

I'm moving him down my scumlist. I still very much don't like his faked anger thing but I see a lot of attempted scumhunting and discussion now and it seems reasonable to suppose he was going for the fancy entrapment plan he earlier discussed.

[referencing me and Nacho regarding his abrasiveness]
One says stronger, the other not much. Funny how that works.

No, actually, it isn't. Nacho said you weren't very abrasive and I said you were more abrasive then me. Both statements can be true and both Nacho and I could agree to the other statement without invalidating our own.

by your reactions it seems like you believe he actually meant it. Yet he said it was put on. Now which do you believe? Because your argument is null, if that wasn't his actual response.

This is incorrect. (for the record, I openly said I believed his reaction was faked prior to him admitting it)

Whether or not I believe his reaction is faked has no bearing to whether or not I believe you were fishing to get an angry reaction that you could call scummy.

Thor's 281- Is the reason for the last question, because you think I am tunneling on die?

No, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on how your wagon partner was tunneling on Die. I do think you've appeared overly focused on Die and silverbullet but I wouldn't call it tunnelling

Now based on what has been said, I still think die and Silver are a tossup. And being they are voting for each other only adds to my suspicion that one of them is scum.

Why is this? I could see plenty of reasons for a town/scum combo to be voting each other and even reasons for a town/town combo. Why are you so sure of a scum/scum combo?

Vote:hiphop

This is largely on gut, unfortunately, but I don't like how he's setting up an "obvious" scumpair with no apparent logic to back it up other then that he suspects both of them individually. Also, i find some of his answers to be a bit dodgy/dismissive in nature which suggests to me a potential attempt at hiding from examination.

[Thor665]

TL:DR
Part 1 - I admit an error to hiphop, but point out some examples of his dodginess and also how it's scummy to me how he's interacting with AV
Part 2 - A question was missed by me, please provide linkage and I'll respond
Part 3 - silverbullet gets told to exercise more of his own opinions though I do point out my personal opinion on misinformation as a scumtell (in an oddly ironic placement that actually I planned weeks ago)

Actually it is. You comment that I am more than you, and Nacho says I wasn't. Which means I must not be very abrasive, by your standards, if you agree with nacho. However you expand on that in iso 34 where you ask me do I usually play in a more abrasive style? Meaning, unless I am assuming too much, that I was using a more abrasive style with Sb. Now which is it? Was I using an abrasive style or not?

I think you were more abrasive then I was and Nacho thinks you had a lack of aggression. Until you know what Nacho's definition of aggression/abrasiveness is and also his read on how abrasive/aggressive I was his scale of abrasiveness/aggression is not a valid point to judge mine on. I found you trying to point out how his read was potentially different then mine as a way to dismiss my thoughts without actually addressing them in any relevant way. I still feel this as you're now trying to get into an ancillary debate with me that I don't care about.

Wait, before you answer that, I noticed you used the word "could", as in it is possible. So do you agree with nacho? If the answer is yes, go back top, if it is no why do you even bring it up?

I agree with Nacho's read as his read. I used 'could' because I lack the information to apply Nacho's read to my read.

Now let's step back for a minute here and assess - what is the purpose here of trying to win this debate point with me? Why does it matter if Nacho and I did or didn't have different reads of your aggression at that point?

If your answer is yes, I could provide evidence of contradiction. Of course if it is no, well then it is irrelevent to me anyways. Perhaps you can explain it to me on why you are playing the "if" game.

Because I think you were intentionally more aggressive then me in an attempt to generate an emotional response from silverbullet - I have already said this.

That is right, it is only a matter of opinion. Did you find me doing the same to die? If so, I wonder why you didn't call me out then? To me it is nothing like what nacho is doing to me. Putting out a case and seeing how I defend. Do you believe so, or is it different? How so?

Yes, it is a matter of opinion - that doesn't mean the opinion is not valid.

The second part of your question...I actually am not sure what you're asking. I didn't see you try the same thing on Die or I would have said so. I don't know why it matters if it is nothing like what Nacho is doing to you...the Nacho's actions on you connection here is where you lost me, could you restate this point?

Wagon partner? Why do I care what my wagon partner is doing?

Because sometimes wagon partners are scum and if you're supporting a scum pushed wagon it should concern you. Why wouldn't you be concerned about who else was voting the wagon you were?

Read it again. I bolded the important parts of my post and yours. I don't believe it is a scum, scum combo. Possible, but don't think it is very likely. Since I know you will ask me why I believe it is a town/scum combo, I am going to say there is enough evidence on either one for either one to be scum. From die's evading attention, to Sb's contradictions, either one has a good chance of being scum. Now you state that there are even

more

(I believe that is the word you want) reasons they could be a town/town combo, how so?

Ah, I misunderstood your thoughts as regards the SB/Die connection. That's my bad.

As far as town/town reasons there are a large number of ways that the violence could come down to town/town as well as scum/town, and less that it is scum/scum. Since I clearly thought you were banking on a scum/scum it is logical for me to question it as I did. If you desperately want me to explain possibilities for a town/town I will but I see no value in it now that you've pointed out that I was wrong.

Ok, there is a different Thor. Gut? Wow!! Because all of you other votes you had reasons. The first sentence is bull.(You state something like that, and all you would get is a chain reaction. Especially with newbies. It is a good thing I don't have work today, otherwise who knows what would have happened)

??? Okay, so because I've used logic before suddenly I am not allowed to use my gut reads on stuff? That is silly.
As far as your second point...okay, ::shrug:: should I always check with your availability before I post a vote on you? And do you really believe I am capable of getting everyone to vote for you in less then 24 hours while you are at work/sleep? This looks *really* paranoid, and is also attempting to dismiss my gut read as well as suggest scummy overtones to my vote.

Yes I answered that above, so don't come back with he's hiding something (that is also very un-thor like. To not even read what has been written.)

Well, misread it, and I admitted to that above and shall do so again here. I'm curious why your first conclusion is that I am acting shockingly out of character as opposed to just correcting me. Why the immediate character defamation on this point? Should I just take it as a compliment that you don't believe I could make a mistake?

As for the second one, show me. Prove it where I am dodgy. I have answered all quetions posed at me. This is just proof that some accusations(AV this one started from you) snowball.

STOP! (hammertime)

Back off on AV as far as my post goes, this is my accusation on you and I accept it as mine. It's silly and scummy to turn around and throw my actions into the face of another player who had no part in them. Either they make me scummy or they don't, but trying to say my actions are AV's fault is terrible.

As to the rest of your question - I addressed above some of the attitudes of evading and dismissal I found in your reply post here. If you want some more ask and I'll dig them up. I'll accept it may just be your playstyle but my gut is starting to quake, and that quaking says scummy. Also, as long as we're talking AV, I have to point out how in one of your posts above you basically threatened the fruit with how you were thinking of adding them to your scumlist because (as far as I can tell) AV is scumhunting you and debating the merits of your points. That's a scummy threat if ever I heard one.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thor are you going to comment on this? This is my opinion- you suspect me because I underreacted, yet you didn't suspect SB because he underreacted?

I'm sorry, I missed the initial question of what I was being asked to comment upon. If one of you could link me to the initial post I'd be happy to offer my thoughts on what I was asked to.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

(This one is almost ironic considering its timing to my own blunder)

What troubles me now though is that he seems to think my angry outburst was directed at you... not hip hop.

First I would note; you had an angry reaction at both me and hiphop, though of varying degrees.
Second - recalling information wrong is not in and of itself scummy. Is he using the misinformation in a scummy way? That is the question you have to figure out.

(Again I more so think it's misunderstanding and slightly his strange... style... so to speak)

So you're saying you don't think he's scummy? It almost feels like you're asking me to justify your actions prior to you doing them and that is not something I am comfortable doing. If you're scum it'll be too easy for you to hide from me that way, and if you're town you're denying us your insights which weakens town.

[Thor665]

So he was asking me to comment on your presented commentary? Okay, the way it was phrased made me think I'd already been asked the question and I couldn't find it.

Did hiphop mean overreacted when referencing SB? I seem to recall you (or was that Nacho - I'm thinking it was Nacho) who cleared SB because of the strength of the reaction.

In any case, to the general thrust of the question, which is gauging reactions as scumtells or towntells or whatever - I personally tend to focus on the strategy behind the reaction rather then the read of the reaction. (Basically, I don't consider "being defensive" a valid scum/towntell unless I know something about the player's individual meta to clear that info for me). I do tend to look at actions taken during defense/offensive maneuvers and assess those actions themselves as scummy/townish.

If there was a contradiction from you on how you read SB and then read hiphop by using the same tell in different ways I would call that a valid scumtell on you.

[Thor665]

I'm going to avoid going over the whole wall from hiphop because at this point I feel a more pointed post is required - if he wishes I will go back and zap him point by point, needless to say I disagree with the bulk of his commentary.

Two important points to my mind;

1. hiphop - why have you not provided the evidence of Vox's contradiction in how he reads under reactions as discussed here and here You brought this claim up, AV flatly denies it exists, and I've even admitted I would find it scummy and it would certainly weaken the tag team you're currently under. Is it out there? Please produce the quotes.

2. Please expound on the concept of how, if I have previously used logic, it is now *scummy* for me to use gut - this makes no sense to me. I understood you better when you were sticking to 'out of character' but now you're claiming it as a scumtell which begs explanation.

[Thor665]

Sorry to lose you, hiphop.

And on a more game related scale, ack! I despise having someone replace out when I am suspicious of them because then you get to deal with the replacement whitewash.

@Everyone else (and maybe silverbullet in particular) - question #1 from this post is, I feel, exceedingly valid at this particular juncture. If evidence of AV's commentary towards excusing SB while damning hiphop on the same scumtell exists it is a major contradiction on AV's part and paints the fruit scummy. If such commentary doesn't exist then it suggests to me that hiphop was pushing a bit of a misrep on AV and that quite possibly through scumminess, which would cement him for me as a solid lynch option for Day 1.

Does anyone know where this supposed commentary of AV's is? I looked, albeit very lightly, through the fruit's iso (for you newbies, the iso stands for 'isolation' and you can seperate out individual players through the drop down menu at the bottom of the page) and couldn't find it. Silverbullet, since you were"cleared" by AV for this do you recall the commentary? If no one does I'll do a deeper look, but more eyes then just mine should look at it since I'm clearly in favor of a hiphop lynch.

I'll agree with Nacho that we need more Pulindar and Die Prediger in this thread.

[Thor665]

because we cannot hold the replacement to his/her predecessor's actions

Please expound on this concept.

[Thor665]

Your opinions are so noted, I'd still like to hear Nacho respond to the question I asked him.

[Thor665]

You will, unfortunately, discover that replacing out is common in all games on mafiascum and especially in the Newbie games. This is a combination of the game's length and slowness as played here on mafiascum.net and newbies discovering that some aspect of the game is not enjoyable to them (I've seen town and scum newbies depart for reasons as varied as 'everyone's accusing me of stuff' to 'this game is boring')

I'll say hey to Nobody; it looks like you and I finally get a game without Ythan in it.

[Thor665]

At this point I believe neither [no] nor AurorusVox were voting. Was there a reason for singling out [no] here?

The sour fruit was scumhunting in a manner that I could assess and had made some views known. [no] was less forthcoming in my eyes (and, if I recall correctly, I just hadn't felt he was scumhunting in any way whatsoever) so I wanted to obligate him to air his current suspicions.

[Thor665]

That said, Thor is playing very

very

town, and while that's usually a good thing, I think he's going a bit far with it.

Thor is being too townie to be townie.

I agree with you about the way silverbullet is looking for coaching from me, and I dinged him on that not long ago. I suggest the following two caveats;

1. He could simply be scum buddying to me
2. He could simply be newbie attaching to the towniest player he sees

Since I know I'm not scum I'm looking at one of those as a possibility.

What are your thoughts on the hiphop/Sweenytodd question? You comment that Sweeny is replacing into a spot with a lot of pressure but do not clarify your own thoughts on that pressure. Thor doth verily demand this information!

[Thor665]

I

knew

you'd pick up on that! The problem is, here, that *I* can say you're too townie, and *you* can say you're too townie, but honestly, there's a limit. It boils down, essentially, to WIFOM.

No it doesn't.

You can claim I'm scummy because I'm trying to *act* townie - that's fine, that makes sense, and if that's your case go for it.

You have zero case for just saying Thor might be scummy because he's being very

very

townie.

[Thor665]

I don't have a lot of faith in that case going too far as currently presented, but I have no intrinsic issues with your logic either.

[Thor665]

L-1?

Voting for SB I have - Sauron, Die Prediger, and Nobody Special.

It's 5 to lynch, who am I missing?

[Thor665]

Some tl;dr would be lovely.

Right, here we go;

The day opened up with me trying a new strategy to shut down the RVS and running a wagon on Die (aka hohum) because he wanted to avoid putting someone at L-3. Shortly thereafter attention turned hard and fast to [no] (aka Sauron) because he put Die at L-1. Die and [no] continued as the major wagons for a while as people debated whether or not [no]'s action was newbie exuberance (my belief) or scummy evilness (Die was probably leader of this pack)

Later silverbullet became a wagon of hot contention after being called out by me for using fake emotions (anger) in his postings. He admitted to such and received a lot of heat on this angle. the [no]/Sauron wagon vaguely chugged along and the Die wagon basically died around this point. silverbullet seemed to gain extra heat when he decided replacing out was a scumtell (though he has recanted this position)

hiphop (aka Sweenytodd) was meanwhile engaged in a vociferous debate with AurorusVox. In my opinion during this period he was camping out on the Die wagon while tossing scumtells at silverbullet in an attempt to possibly encourage that wagon without actually getting on it. He also, as recently discussed by me, seemed to be pushing a misrep on AV though it's a little odd since he asked me to comment on it, and usually you don't want to make a point you're making up one that you're specifically requesting commentary on.

Also in there Pulindar (Haylen) did...not much. His worst ding is his really odd clearing of Nacho for 'the meta that shalt not be named' after only a small handful of Nacho posts. Of course he was having clear issues with posting in all his other games, so his lurking is at least well covered up if it was just scummy lurking.

My current desire is a hiphop lynch.
I'd probably go Die/you (hohum) for my second and generally everyone else is very close so I'm not sure if I have a third preference.

[Thor665]

@Haylen - I see no reason on Day 1 to discuss town reads. I also, quite honestly, do suspect almost everyone at this point. Do you not? Have you already cleared half the town? How much more then two top suspects do you feel it's appropriate for me to give at this point?

Also - Pulindar's 'secret meta' is that Nacho makes long posts when he's town?

Could someone please link me to a scum Nacho game so I can see his short posts at work?

[Thor665]

Good lord, I actually went onto Nacho's Wiki page and looked at his games and it's not a totally undue claim to make ::insert bewildered emoticon here::

I'd still like Haylen to answer the first part of my last post.

[Thor665]

I prefer to town hunt rather than scumhunt at this point in the game. It's just the way I work. Yes I am suspicious of everyone, but that doesnt mean I'm not going to try looking for things that make them town aswell.

If you agree you are suspicious of everyone then why is it scummy if I express that I am suspicious of everyone?

You can say I'm fencesitting on most of my reads (wow, on Day 1 I'm not claiming obvious scum or town on anyone, how vile of me) but I have come out and declared who I think is scum (hiphop) as well as why and also included a second option as well. How is that fencesitting?

Whoot! SB, get an avatar.

Give me one and I'll set it?

Google search for silver bullet with pixel restrictions
I advocate choosing that silver speedo thing.

[Thor665]

Now that we're all done expressing ourselves in order to establish our unique and beautiful snowflake status;

@Haylen - I'd like you to respond on my response to your fence sitting claim on me. Though I do ask questions just to prove my own amazingness to myself I do like them responded to as well.

@Nobody Special

Does anyone know where this supposed commentary of AV's is?

I've read the thread a good 2-3 times in the last two days and didn't see it.

You haven't read the thread all

that

well since you missed the part where AV acknowledged it didn't exist.

The lemon was always saying that though, it was hiphop (aka Sweenytodd) who was making an issue of it, however.

You commented earlier that we should give Sweeny some time to 'catch up'. Why is this? Do you think the case on him is that poor? You really didn't comment on the hiphop/Sweeny push that much and I'm curious of your read on it.

@Nacho - you alive?

[Thor665]

What the 'ell?


Let's look at this flow of events as I see them.

Nobody Special votes silverbullet for being likely scum.
I ask him why he's not commenting on hiphop/Sweeny.
NS says he likes to give replacements time to catch up.
AV points out an earlier NS suspicion of Sweeny and asks again about how much time 'catching up' entails.
NS votes Sweeny.

[Thor665]

Nobody Special votes silverbullet for being likely scum.
I ask him why he's not commenting on hiphop/Sweeny.
NS says he likes to give replacements time to catch up.
AV points out an earlier NS suspicion of Sweeny and asks again about how much time 'catching up' entails.
NS votes Sweeny.

Clearly I am really misunderstanding your flow of events. I have taken my above list and included links to the posts I'm referencing. Could you do the same for your sequence of events and maybe then we can figure out where the disconnect is?

[Thor665]

Also, I note in your post you have adjusted - vote Sweeny to 'vote Sweeny for being scum' yet made no change to the silverbullet part - does this mean you're not so confident on the SB stuff you presented earlier but are definitely sold on Sweeny? When you're putting together the timeline for me could you maybe note which Sweeny post really sold you on his scumitude as well?

Thanks.

[Thor665]

because we cannot hold the replacement to his/her predecessor's actions

Please expound on this concept.

Replacements can't explain their predecessors actions/views. So, we can't really expect them to defend against accusations levelled against their predecessors...

We can't expect them to explain them. We can and should hold them to those actions. I now get what you intended - I just didn't like your word choice.

[Thor665]

He's closest to lynch and we're on top of a deadline. The procedure is basically to claim from here and the longer he waits the less time we have to talk about the claim.

It would be irresponsible ant anti-town for someone to push another lynch at this point because it would require a complete refocus of everyone's attention.

But by that logic you're implying the claim is meaningless since we can't be expected to refocus ourselves regardless of the claim. I don't like the fatalistic 'que sera sera' attitude towards the Sweeny lynch I'm getting from you.

[Thor665]

I don't care if you don't like it.

The claim isn't meaningless because it gives us something to talk about. God knows we need it because nobody has really done anything about moving the topic forward over the last few days ago.

But do you feel talking about the claim will generate anything other then a lynch of Sweeny? I don't have issue with you wanting a claim, I want a claim too, but I don't support a belief that any other lynch targets are, by definition, anti town. You say you want more conversation, but you also say that any other lynch focus would be anti-town and I find that to be an admission that you only want conversation insomuch as it helps lynch Sweeny. Where am I wrong?

[Thor665]

@Thor: do you really think that it's worthwhile attempting to try and refocus 9 people on some other random lynch target when there's less than 2 days left to make a case on someone? Given the history of bickering going on here it sure doesn't seem like anything that could potentially result in a no-lynch is worthwhile to me.

Unless he claims something other than VT, we're lynching ST. Period.

And by dint of admitting that if he had claimed something other then VT he wouldn't be a solid lynch in your eyes you are admitting to the same concept I'm describing - which is potential to redirect and discuss after the claim.

ITT Thor campaigns for my D2 vote.

I have buttons and bumper stickers too.

[Thor665]

Classic strawman here. He's attempting to distort my position by addressing two completely separate issues in one lump of text.

I wouldn't lynch a claimed cop (for example) with the possibility of a doc being alive as well. It is one of the few situations that I could see even attempting to refocus anyone's attention on another lynch target.

And if you go back and re-read what I've been saying to you since this conversation thread started, you'll see that what I was attacking was your stated concept that pursuing any other lynch target was anti-town which I took as an absolute statement and disagreed with.

You have just pointed out how it wasn't an absolute statement, which I do agree with and said as much and now you're claiming I'm straw man-ing you when I just posted an agreement to your thought.

If I'm straw man-ing you, why am I straw man-ing you in order to agree with you?

[Thor665]

What, exactly, are you waiting for? Given that you've outlined the reasons for wanting a lynch, why are you not voting?

Because if he's town it's good to get his thoughts out for consideration later in the game.

And if he's scum...same as above.

[Thor665]

My other reason for voting Hohum is that he has posted very little that isn't fluff during the time that he has replaced in. I think he is lurker scum.

While I will agree hohum is high on my suspect list for his aggressive attitude towards the end of the day (and instant attacks on anyone who seems to suggest anything slightly different - I'm still waiting for the straw man accusation to be explained) I do have a bit of a feeling of pot calling the kettle black here. It's not like your content provided is all that much beyond his, and with part of your vote being based on hypocrisy this seems...hypocritical (couldn't come up with a better word).

I'll also point out, that hohum wants the day to end with info coming out of ST prior to lynch.
NS seemed to be calling for the day to end without that info.

It's not an inherently hypocritical standpoint for hohum to be making.

[Thor665]

ITT Thor has a bad habit of addressing concerns levied at people that aren't Thor.

I prefer to think of it as addressing my own reads on her accusation and pointing out the inherent lack of logic therein. She claimed you were being hypocritical for something that was quite clearly not hypocrisy. That's worth noting.

[Thor665]

Wow, lots to catch up on, let's see how we fly;

TL:DR

hohum is scummy for voting for someone he believed to be vanilla.
Haylen is still scummy for that hammer vote
NK speculation is good, I think it might suggest either hohum or Haylen are scum and also explain a third option for why I wasn't NKed.

@NobodySpecial - I second SB's question to you when he re-asked my question. I'd like to see you support and validate your timeline.

@Haylen - why would you have hammered ST prior to him answering questions that were being put to him?

================================================

Haylen vs. hohum

- I hate personal attacks because I always feel emotion starts throwing off reads. I am *really* not a fan of hohum's "I voted for someone I believed to be Vanilla because statistically it helps protect power roles" Well...yeah, but while we're at it Town should never vote to lynch town. A proven VT is almost as potent and powerful as a PR (and better then some PRs flat out).

Haylen is looking bad because I do agree with hohum on some of his points about her pushing hypocritical cases, the thing is he's angering her so much and then parading around OMGUS as part of his case on her...yeah, so you're riling her up and then saying that because she's riled up it's scummy? No, I think not.

I still do agree with hohum on some of his case points versus Haylen (specifically; the hypocrisy angle and maybe the IC stuff as well though I'm undecided on that point). Haylen's hammer vote is still pretty bad as I cannot imagine she didn't understand the basic concept of wanting to get information out of a lynch prior to that lynch - and this I think is the biggest scum mark against her.

NK speculation

- this is an oft debated point as to whether it is good or not. I personally support NK speculation because I'd rather force scum to keep trying to use WIFOM then getting to do exactly what they want to do without fear of analysis.

As far as AV as the NK target instead of me, I'll note for Sauron that another possibility of why I wasn't targeted (you posited that either I'm scum, or scum want you to think I'm scum) there is also the chance scum simply thought I was the player most likely to be targeted by the Doc. As such killing AV, who was in mental lockstep with me pretty much all Day 1 (with both of us seeming to follow each other) was a reasonable secondary target.

Also, with AV's last minute targeting of Haylen (which I fully agree with) AV would be a good target for scum Haylen to kill since AV is a townish looking player who suspects her. Conversely AV is a good target for hohumscum to target as it could help push through a Haylen suspicion.

[Thor665]

Apparently everyone is being too tired. You're certainly lurking about as much as the rest of them/us, so mind the stones near the glass walls.

[Thor665]

The default reaction that VTs need to be saved at all costs is a bad reaction. You have to pick and chose your battles. Any VT should be happy to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the town as only scum and PRs should posses any instinct of self-preservation.

I do not disagree with this. I do disagree with the concept that you voted for someone you believed to be town - there is a difference.

I also still don't like the OMGUS claim on Haylen. She's accused you of dodging questions, straw manning, fluff posting, and probably some other stuff as well. Her case is clearly more then simple OMGUS, and if you're going with OMGUS as a general descriptor of the response of lashing out at an attacker (which I agree it appears she is doing) then you had certainly done enough to rile her up prior to this where I don't see it as provable as a scum reaction rather then an emotional reaction and thus is hard to use as evidence of scumminess for her.

[Thor665]

I do not disagree with this. I do disagree with the concept that you voted for someone you believed to be town - there is a difference.

And let me clarify 'voted' to 'intended to vote/pushed lynch of' for accuracy's sake.

[Thor665]

I'm actually not opposed to a Haylen lynch for the aforementioned hammer prior to having ST respond which i said I thought was the biggest scum mark on her.

At the moment I'm waiting for her and NS to respond to my questions before I lay down a vote but I'm basically looking to lynch one of them currently.

[Thor665]

I'm actually not opposed to a Haylen lynch for the aforementioned hammer prior to having ST respond which i said I thought was the biggest scum mark on her.

In my opinion, it wasn't that big of a scum mark. There really isn't a good scum motive for scumHaylen to hammer early, unless she thought ST was going to out her scumbuddy... Is there any reasons other than "she didn't let ST respond" that made the hammer scummy for you?

Nope. But I do consider cutting conversation short scummy, there were a couple of conversation threads going on (I'll note my angle on NS) that scumHaylen could have been trying to cut short regardless of ST's role.

explanation of WIFOM?

WIFOM

The Wiki here on mafiascum.net can be a useful tool for learning about common terms (though I'll caution that the general consensus is that the site meta has shifted away from most of the town/scumtells discussed therein)

I agree that NK speculation can become WIFOM. I disagree that it is then not worth discussing them because, quite frankly, I personally believe all scumtells are equally WIFOM.

[Thor665]

And you also ignored what I said my read of those posts were. Let's look again at my issue with the timeline;

Post 382 (the 28th) I ask you about Sweeny Todd
Post 383 (the 28th) you say you like to give replacements time
Post 384 (the 29th) AV asks you about Sweeny again
Post 385 (the 29th) VRK posts vote count
Post 386 (the 29th) You vote Sweenytodd

What happened between Post 383 where you were going to give him more time and Post 386 where you voted him?

[Thor665]

Okay, we need a bit of motion in this ocean and I actually liked NS's answer to me.

Vote: Haylen

@Nacho - what is your read on hohum? You've sort of dinged his case on Haylen a bit but I can't recall you really making a value call on the slot itself.

@silverbullet (feel free to wait till after NS replies to your question if it makes a difference) - I'm curious why you're so fixated on the NK, what angle are you pursuing there?

@NS - who are your current top suspects and why?

[Thor665]

I would have posted yesterday, but Thor's post made me pretty angry and I didn't think anyone needs to cope with angry Hayl. For a start he did not explain why he is voting for me and just carried on asking other people questions.

If you are angry at me for some perceived slight I have committed to you on a personal level I immediately and wholeheartedly offer my apologies, though I'm unsure what I did that was rude and certainly didn't intend it.

If you're angry at me for voting for you in the game, then I advocate more deep breathing or chocolate in your life (I personally vote cookies). I will note I have explicitly stated what I found scummy about you (hammer vote/conversation ender) though I will admit I didn't do it in the post I voted you in (not that I think I need to) and also, as long as we're mentioning my questions, one of those questions was aimed at you and you haven't answered it yet even though you indicated you would.

@Nacho - you feel no need to feel anyone else out? A reactive player is not that helpful to town methinks.

[Thor665]

So your issue with me is that I voted you for reasons previously stated and didn't re-state them in the post I voted you in? How exactly is that scummy? If you can't answer that then you are probably letting anger cloud your reasoning and need to reassess since at that point it's a personal playstyle issue more then a scumtell.

[Thor665]

I just received my first activity prod PM ever (how shameful for me). I was going to respond via PM and this is what I had composed for Vel thus far;

'I am still here and alive - my lack of posts is simply due to 80% of the posts since my last post are people either saying they're posting to avoid replacement or are requesting replacement and there's not too much to say to that.'

This is relatively true, but in the final analysis is a cop out. Besides, if I'm grumpy about the lack of activity and do nothing I'm no better then all the fellow slugs who are doing nothing. So let's get some activity in this thread - verily forsooth!

posting to avoid replacement. I've been traveling so I'll muster up a post a bit later today (and I have lots to comment on too)

Obv. lurker is obvious. Where are your ton of comments on all you have to comment upon?

@Haylen - You're lurking. Bad Haylen, no cookie! Who is your second suspect after hohum and why?

@Nacho - your stance about not making commentary because 'posting just to post is bad for town' is (and pardon my French) Smurfpoo. Yeah, you shouldn't post just to post, but a claimed lack of opinions is just a cop out and I don't like the implied lack of need to scumhunt. With Sauron replacing out are you planning to continue your current top case or no, and why?

@silverbullet - you were pressing for a hohum lynch at the end of Day 1, now you're on the NS wagon. What changed between then and now to shift your focus?

@Equinox - welcome to the game, as you read up I'd like to hear your read on the Haylen/hohum interactions (started roughly at the top of pg. 19). I'd also love for you to address Nacho's case on your slot.

[Thor665]

Im here Im here! I just got back from an exam lol.

Though that is an interesting point I'm not sure I'm totally sold on your case, could you try rephrasing it for me as I don't think that actually qualifies as a scumtell on that playerslot.

[Thor665]

Umm... at the end of day 1 I was fine with the hiphop lynch.

That may well be, but you were voting hohum.

However... when did the NS wagon start... or is my questioning along with yours on NS wagon hopping to you..?

A wagon starts, in my mind, with the very first vote cast.

I'm asking you about your suspicions because at the end of Day 1 you were voting hohum and at the start of Day 2 you voted NS. I am curious what changed your mind as to who was more scummy.

[Thor665]

Good gawd - no conversation and pretty much everyone is voting the person currently voting them. I'm finger of suspicion-ing the whole lot of you OMGUS crazed mimes.

[Thor665]

-Thor

Good gawd - no conversation and pretty much everyone is voting the person currently voting them. I'm finger of suspicion-ing the whole lot of you OMGUS crazed mimes.

Start asking questions as to why everyone is going crazy voting for everyone else! To refresh my memory, who are your top two suspects atm and why (if they haven't changed)?

Meaning if they have changed I shouldn't say anything?

Also, though I find amusement in your initial demand I will note it is not my sole job to ask questions of everyone all the time - your current post is a step in the correct direction if you want to generate more discussion but simply requesting others to do it is intrinsically silly. (also I did just ask a brace of questions like 2-3 posts ago, so I feel I'm on top of this)

As to my suspicions currently I would say it's;

Haylen/hohum - probably one of them is scum to my mind. I'm currently voting Haylen but will admit I'm almost talking myself out of my current vote because her hammer vote almost seems too overt to actually be scummy. That said I'm happy to have a vote on one of them and haylen is as good as hohum at this stage to my mind.

I also have a bit of skeevishness towards Nacho for his current voting methods. That said I've lynched him before where the lynch involved claims of lurking and avoiding commentary and he was town then. That said, it's still anti-town actions even if he is a pro town slot so I want him on my radar because his current play style pleases me not at all.

I'm mildly feeling scum on Sauron/(new player whose name I'll eventually learn) but it's a pure gut read.

That's my current top suspect list and "cases".

[Thor665]

Are you only suspicious of Haylen from her hammer vote or more? Are you only suspicious of hohum for his attack on Haylen or more? (You don't have to get into very specifics if you don't want to)

Haylen, as discussed earlier, for her hammer and poor logic push on hohum.
hohum for basically the very oddly harsh nature of his push on Haylen and his instant assaults on anyone who so much as questions anything he does.

Both of them for lurking

[Thor665]

Please do not publicly disclose meta of me.

How do you expect someone to do this unless they totally remove meta as part of their read on other players. If you use meta internally to make decisions and people ask you to explain those decisions you are obligated to present the meta so others understand how you got to the decision.

This is basically asking other players to not use a piece of evidence in assessing someone, and I don't think I can promise to do that for you or anyone else.

[Thor665]

How do you expect someone to do this unless they totally remove meta as part of their read on other players.

I don't understand this.

The logic being, if you can't explain the meta then you can't afford to use it internally since you can't (shouldn't rather) use reads you cannot explain. There's a reason gut is made fun of when people use it in cases. Gut works fine for placing a vote, gut works terribly to convince others to vote with you.

Thus, the 90% comment. Unless I've suddenly lost the ability of reading comprehension, you weren't asked why you were hesitating for a lynch on me. It also wasn't good for TownYou to include in your analysis because you discounted your own point while declaring me suspcious.

That's a very good point, I'll have to pay attention to that habit in the future.

[Thor665]

Thor, considering I gave evidence for every point I made against Hohum, you really can't call my logic poor.

Examples (aka evidence) do not equate to good logic, unfortunately. hohum has given examples on you, does that make his logic good? Besides hohum do you have a top suspect?

I like Equinox's case on hohum. I don't like Nacho's case on Equinox now.

I'm sticking to the belief that scum exist in the Haylen/hohum snarl.

[Thor665]

Sorry for my lack of posts, I just had one other game work through a Mylo and another do a very quick day just as I was warming up. At the very least as my only game currently in Day you get extra special (+1) attention for a bit.

@Equinox - do you have some links of Sauron games where he was town and exhibited the pressure voting technique he did here? Does he or does he not do the same as scum? If you're defending his actions based on meta then you should do better then simply saying that it's common meta for him and leaving it at that.

@SB

Could you sum up briefly why you suspect Nobody Special and put it in a single post? I feel like I've lost the crux of your case amongst the niggling little points.

@Nobody Special

Same thing as SB above, I'd like you to re-state the case as you see it on SB.

[Thor665]

So your case is basically set on that odd 'think carefully' comment and his explanation for it? Okay, I want to see his case on you but I might wish to revisit this at that point.

What are your thoughts on Nacho's case on Equinox/Sauron?

[Thor665]

Yeah, I think my gut read on the NS vs. SB thing is that it's a bit of town on town OMGUS.

Neither of them can particularly explain their cases and each of them are hanging them on a semi-weak aspect to my mind (I was the one who first brought up the fake rage, but have decided its only true read is for newbie - not newbie scum or newbie town). Meanwhile SB's case is focused on the 'think carefully' comment which, though odd doesn't intrinsically seem any more scummy then it might simply be someone trying to apply pressure via a vague threat.

I like SB better out of the exchange because his case is his own while NS' is a rehash of my case mixed with a gut read.

I'm feeling better about Nacho, I'll withdraw my gut read on him as it was apparently just indigestion. I need to do some reading on Equinox's Sauron meta to see if Nacho's case holds out. My big issue with the Nacho/Equinox thing is (to a certain extent) Nacho is advancing a meta case on Sauron and Equinox is defending with a meta case (the question of Sauron commenting about pressure with all of his votes). Neither of them went out of their way to bring in further meta evidence which makes most of the thing feel weak to me. I'll read Equinox's linked game and also do a bit of searching for other Sauron games to see if the dots connect somewhere.

I'll second (third?) the need for more Haylen and hohum in this thread. They had that huge explosion and then both basically disappeared. Clearly there are some heated emotions in that mix but I'm personally suspicious that some aspect of the heat was role based.

[Thor665]

Your reaction was interesting. I don't know what to make of it, really. You've shown that you can rage when you need to, and it felt like you were lashing out at Nobody Special for suspecting you. Hmm...

I'm starting to get close to considering ending sentences with ellipses as anti-town.

In short; this is an incomplete thought presented here. Why end it on a hanging thought as though you desire people to project their own concepts onto your thought process. What did you mean to imply?

If you didn't mean to imply anything what was the purpose of posting up an incomplete thought?

[Thor665]

tbh, a lot of the time when I'm town and am sure somebody is scum, I tunnel the hell out of them. I think that is what has happened here with my read on hohum, I'm so sure that he's scum I've forgot to try to get logical read on anybody else and have relied mostly on my gut.

Does tunneling from you often look similar to lack of posting? You've really not had a functional post between this one and maybe last Thursday and I think there was only about two posts inbetween them at all.

But there is also something gutbased about Thor that I don't like.

It's my beard, it's so awesomely manly it always leaves the opposite gender disjointed. Even through the internets.

neutral read on Nachomamma.

You earlier claimed his as townish due to meta. What changed?

[Thor665]

It's a way for me to say I've noted that particular action or fact as not particularly town, but not completely damning, and that I'm willing to revisit it if need be. If silverbullet999 talks about it, then that's great; if not, I'll just keep it in mind. I don't really care if others decide to add their thoughts to it, since that's not what I'm looking for.

So you don't care if he comments on it - check.
You don't care what others think about it - check.

...um, then why did you choose to type it out at all? If you want his opinion on it, ask a question. If you don;'t ask a question and don't seem to care what he thinks about it then you must be asking it to try to effect the opinions of other players and that looks like potential soft-selling.

[Thor665]

Request Prod on hohum

He hasn't posted since last Thursday. This makes me sad. When I'm sad I eat lots of cookies. Now I'm fat and nobody loves me.

[Thor665]

Okay. NO ONE else can replace out. I said so.

Gives a tone that makes it see like he is trying to control the game. I don't like it when anybody tries to take control of any aspect of any game cause of the whole 'leading the town' thing.

How does this effect your idea of how you IC? I recall hohum calling you out on this earlier and you not being impressed with the scumtell as he presented it so I'm wondering what's different between that and what you're dinging Nobody for here?

[Thor665]

@Mod - Happy Day of Womb Escapage to you as well

If hohum flips town, will you view SB as likelier scum?

Possibly, since silverbullet999's been eager to lynch him... but I'll need to look a bit more closer (I think I need to either way, though).

This is interesting. Both Haylen and hohum are at L-1. I believe silverbullet999 has the hammer. May you make the correct decision, sir!

This section of your post raises my hackles quite a bit. You first clarify out what would or would not perhaps make SB look scummier/townier to you regarding his lynch attitude and then you pull a Pilate and start washing your hands of the lynch situation and wishing him well.

Could I re-hear the case on hohum from those voting that way? I'm not sure I feel as though I understand it.

[Thor665]

- Die Prediger was jumpy with the vote counts. He admitted to keeping track of them to prevent mislynches.

Town doesn't do this? This part of the case seems meaningless padding to me.

- hohum did not consider any other scum possibilities (with exception of Thor665).

I personally think this is more due to V/LA issues then anything else. Whatever his faults may or may not be I do not think hohum had a problem with attacking other players and calling them scummy. I also barely think he was around long enough to present more then 1 or 2 suspects. This seems like more 'meh' padding.

- hohum did not build a convincing case against Haylen

in my opinion

following attempt to "press buttons." (I will acknowledge that this might be related to his V/LA, though it's not enough to overcome the others.)

Italics are added by me in order to make this sentence viable.

So basically the case is ad hom and Die aiming at easy busses. I certainly agree the ad hom bit is weird, I'm just still not certain if it's overtly scummy. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a good correlation between being rude and being scum (oh how I wish).

You didn't mention hohum's instant attacks on anyone who disagreed with him, which I mentioned earlier as a big chunk of what I found him scummy for. Do you not find that scummy for some reason?

[Thor665]

I don't feel bad lynching someone who promises content but never produces.

I will add, apparently in twilight now, that this still seems a poor reason to the case. He clearly flaked out by dint of needing to be replaced. That is not inherently telling of alignment. I don't disagree with the rest (save your town read)

Now for the waiting part.

[Thor665]

Yeah, flip-floppin' vibes. Good stuff. Decide if that's scummy or not after I come up with a wall come game morning.

I'll certainly be looking forward to that wall considering some earlier statements about SB you made. I'm surprised you feel the hammer is townish without seeing the flip - I presume you'll clarify that (and if you hadn't been planning to, just add some extra mortar and bricks for my sake)

[Thor665]

Exactly, Equinox had made specific commentary relating to her opinion towards SB and had the crux of it hinging on the flip of hohum. Therefore to reverse from that to calling him townish pre flip is not only a chang of previously stated read of SB but a change of stated method to read him.

I wish to know why this happened this way.

[Thor665]

Ugh, I think I was almost hoping I'd be the NK so I wouldn't have to try to wade through the rest of the mystery.

My current reads are probably that Equinox and Nacho are more likely town and that Haylen and Nobody are more likely scum.

I'm guessing silverbullet was killed in relation to his Nobody suspicion (either Nobody is scum and wanted to get rid of suspicious player, or Nobody is the planned mislynch and they wanted to cast suspicion on him).

I want to re-read the hohum lynch as well. I think the votes on him were mostly town players annoyed at his rude play and/or opportunistic scum. I remember thinking a couple of people were padding their cases on hohum and saying as much so I want to re-look at that.

@Equinox - since you're using process of elimination, could you please clarify how you ruled out all the other players but Nobody?

[Thor665]

Okay, so your logic is;

Thor is town.
Haylen or Nacho are scum.
Haylen and Nacho cannot be partners.
Ergo - Nobody is obv. partner.

Is there any particular reason Haylen and Nacho cannot be partners? All I really recall of their interaction is Haylen clearing Nacho for meta and Nacho later claiming Haylen wasn't scum and was town. The best argument I can see for them not being partners is that you might think they're too overt in buddying each other.

[Thor665]

is it not natural for us to clear each other?

Any of you could be scum, I have very little faith in my scumhunting abilities at the moment.

Obvious contradiction is obvious. Please expound.

[Thor665]

Well, to clarify, do you think Nacho is possible town or possible scum at the moment?

[Thor665]

Deadline

is the end of Saturday, May 29.

Aw crud, the clever scum have already won.

[Thor665]

I would side with making everyone have to counterclaim first (and sticking with a cop/not cop concept - with you claiming cop scum now already know about the Doc situation so I don't want to hear about anyone being the Doc.)

I like the cop/not cop because it makes sense for scum to want to counterclaim at this stage, and you don't want to make it easier for them to know who should do it.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I suppose so. I'll finish up with a;

'not cop'

Perform thy reveal of Equinox or Nobody.

[Thor665]

Perform thy reveal of Equinox or Nobody.

You left yourself out. >_>

Yeah, imagine that

Okay, so now we're in that horrible situation where we have to decide whether Nacho is telling the truth about being the cop or if he, as scum, actually pulled the ol' 50/50 gamble of falseclaiming cop.

If Nacho is scum I think he would have had to just prove that Nacho is his partner (I'm town and have said I think of Equinox as town and NS as scummy. Equinox clearly thinks of NS as scummy too. Instead the Nachoscum claims scum on Equinox? who will be a slightly harder mislynch since he'll have to convince me that my town read is wrong and he's telling the truth?)

That means Haylen is indeed town. (this would help scum Nacho by "clearing" a townie and getting them to believe his false claim).

Equinox's quick tossing of Nobody under the bus in her cop reveal post looks telling from my perspective as well.

@Equinox - do you see any scum team from your perspective other then Nacho/Nobody?

@Nacho - why do you think Equinox was bussing Nobody at the start of day today?

[Thor665]

Why would Nachoscum not "clear" a townie in order to get the townie to go along with whatever mislynch he wanted?

[Thor665]

I'll fix the question. Why didn't Nachomamma8 clear you? It wasn't Haylen who brought up the possibility that I was scummy. Nachoscum8 sure is taking the hard way to do things. All the more reason for the other townies to believe him, yes?

Theoretically, if scum, he wouldn't clear me because I (hopefully) look more townie so it would be more questionable that he chose to investigate me.

I do think the question of why he's taking the "hard" way is a good question to consider when deciding to believe him. I think if he'd targeted Nobody he'd have practically already had the lynch by now. There wouldn't be much doubt from anyone why he suspected Nobody, and at least two other players were already listing Nobody as a top suspect.

If Nacho is scum I think he would have had to just prove that Nacho is his partner

Hmm... I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Dorf!

If Nacho is scum he would have just had to prove that

Nobody

is his partner (the rest of the paragraph explains why I believe this)

[Thor665]

Thor would want him dead to frame Nobody and finalize an easy mislynch. In addition, SB was one of the only players everyone pretty much agreed was town, so it'd be extremely difficult to mislynch him.

Meh - as scum, considering the way SB was following me, I probably would have wanted him kept alive because he was clearly totally sold on me as town.

I find it interesting Haylen isn't quite accepting the Nachocop - which reads as a town reaction to me, which re-verifies in my mind the thought that Haylen/Nacho wouldn't be the pair. I'm not sure how to read Equinox tossing Haylen back into the potential mix after clearing her earlier - By Equinox's earlier logic she should be thinking that Nacho/Nobody is the obv. scum pair and yet she's focused on pulling Haylen back into the mix and pointing at Nacho. (albeit claiming anger/rage as the reason)

I'm going to want to re-read Day 2 to see Nacho's interactions with Haylen and also to check back over the thread to look at Equinox/Nobody (I happily invite anyone to give a try for Equinox/Thor as I do not believe there is any meat to that concept)

I'm leaning currently towards believing Nacho because that was a ballsy claim at a time scum really weren't in that much danger and it put us into a 1/2 of lynching scum as opposed to a 2/5.

[Thor665]

You're kidding, right? It's LyLo. It's the perfect time for town cops and scum cops to come out. It's not so much of a "ballsy" claim as an excellently timed claim.

Meh. If Nacho is scum then he was certainly the less suspicious scum of the pair. (I was calling him town, Haylen was calling him town, you were calling him either or with Haylen and Nobody hadn't really said boo about him). He would have had an excellent chance to glide through without having to risk a cop claim gambit and could have easily made it to a three man endgame even if we'd lynched scummybuddy Nobody.

Now, instead, he's set himself up in a situation where it's a coin flip between him and you (and I suppose a bit of debate for his partner, but he could of had that debate if we'd lynched Nobody in any case).

I don't think it's obvious town play (there's a reason I suspect him still) but I hardly think it's unreasonable to believe he's continuing to take the harder road if I am to believe everything you're saying.

What are your thoughts on Ockham's Razor?

[Thor665]

I'm not suggesting it does, but to see you try to dismiss my thoughts on Nacho because it's "the perfect time" for him to have falseclaimed is hardly a winning argument in your favor. It's an equally perfect time for a completely legit cop to have come forward and claimed against you - and the legit cop wouldn't have been undergoing the risk that Nacho chose to.

How do you explain the risks he's choosing to take? Either explain that or don't act like you have made a functional dismissal of my reasons to be leaning Nachocop currently.

[Thor665]

Oh dear gawd.

I was planning to pop in and offer a few more thoughts and now see all this.

I'm not going to attempt to slog through this or offer my thoughts as to what to do until after I've had a good night's sleep. I will at least say that if Nobody is really the town Doc then he is absolutely correct about needing to work on his Doc game.

I'm going to bed, I will try to be clever and sort this out tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Haylen didn't hammer, that means Haylen isn't scum unless she's scum with Equinox - I see no reason to believe Haylen is scum with Equinox, therefore Haylen as town is confirmed.

From my perspective - as soon as Haylen is proven as town it drops the scum teams to;

Equinox/Nobody
Nacho/Nobody
Nacho/Equinox

I believe in Nacho/Equinox not being true (and if it is - well played and an interesting maneuver). This says to me Nobody is the obv. scumbuddy because if Nacho is telling the truth he's the only player left to partner Equinox. If Nacho is lying the lack of Haylen's hammer again makes Nobody the only player left to partner with Nacho.

Vote: Nobody Special

I do recognize that probably what we're dealing with today is still a choice between Nacho/Equinox - but I'm happy to have my vote on a confirmed scum at the moment. Also, the only way this vote loses the game for town is if the team is Nacho/Equinox and in that case we've already lost after the way Nobody has acted.

I'll manage my re-read of hopefully a big chunk of the sections I wish to re-read today and will have some more thoughts up later in the evening.

[Thor665]

Equinox's play is smart for scum or town in her position. No help there. (I'm also annoyed because the way Equinox plays is similar to my own methods - I have long ago developed a theory that players tend to feel more comfortable around players who play similar to them (and consequently get more town reads on those players) I'm debating how this is affecting my reads on her.)

The more I think about it the more interesting the dynamic between Nacho and Nobody has to be.

@Haylen - I will admit now I am pretty strongly sold on Equinox's defense versus Nobody's Doc claim. If Nobody is Doc, and had been roleblocked, it is indeed odd that he would post a roleclaim and then act iffy about his read on Equinox. Why wouldn't he believe Nacho wholeheartedly at that stage?

Nacho's reply here is

*REALLY*

interesting (emphasized for great justice!!1one!)

Nacho has just admitted he doesn't buy the Doc claim and that Nobody is scum (for the record this is Thor, Equinox, and Nacho now all saying Nobody is scum) By Nacho's logic this should then prove Thor is town.

If Thor is town and Haylen is town (something claimed by Equinox, Thor, and (partly by inference) Nacho) then the only scum pairs possible are the ones I listed earlier Nacho/Equinox, Equinox/Nobody, Nacho/Nobody.

I believe Equinox/Nacho is a coin toss. I believe there is no doubt about Nobody - would you be willing to entertain Nobody as a lynch today? We'll still have to do the coin flip tomorrow but I think doing it this way removes more variables.

Unvote: Nobody

- I don't want this to be at L-1 just at the moment as I want more conversation now.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Nobody Special

Just in case of very proper Mod.

[Thor665]

There's no way I'm hammering; I'm not 100% sold on NS and I don't want to lose. I can't help but think that there's a possibilty that we're dealing with a Thor gambit here. But why now, why didn't Thor fake-counterclaim me before, why doesn't he just vote me... Gah.

I'm neutral towards the histrionics presented here and am not sure I'm sold on the simulpost comment considering the time stamps. Null tell.

The double vote combo between the two of them made me pretty nervous, especially since it would be the optimal move for scumThor at that point

You're being silly - it was also the optimal move for town Thor. As explained, from my logic there was no way Nobody is not the scumbuddy.

The entire post just seemed impulsive, which is NOT the town Thor I know

So meta to judge me, eh? As noted above, I do not believe my vote is impulsive - from my position it is logically obvious and I have explicitly stated why.

You played one game with me (my very first on Mafiascum) do you really think you have a read on my town meta? (what is my town meta?)

Also, more seriously, you are calling Nobody a lying Doc but now you feel better about me - if you think Nobody is lying Doc then why would you need to feel better about me? If you still feel questionable about me then why did you call Nobody a lying Doc?

[Thor665]

No!

Interjective exclamations as part of a typed interface, classic

Okay, Haylen, I'll take it from your post that you're at least willing to consider NobodyScum though apparently you're uncomfortable with the idea that Equinox is bussing/voting him.

If you're willing to go with NobodyScum then by definition you're buying into me being town which means NobodyScum *has* to be scum regardless of how scummy you think Equinox is or is not. Why does scumminess from Equinox concern you at this point?

Also, if you have any thoughts on the Nacho/Nobody interaction I'd really like to hear them.

[Thor665]

Anyway. I would support a NS lynch over a Nachomamma lynch though.

Game for the coin flip tomorrow, eh? On the plus side, I suppose, you may not have to be the one to make the call.

I can't believe im saying this cause it goes against all mafia logic ect and I'm going to look so so stupid if I'm wrong here. I think Nacho is fake claiming cop and Nobody Special is fakeclaiming Doc.

Let's discuss this a bit. What makes you feel this goes against "all mafia logic" exactly?

The risk would have been in the initial claim by Nacho - after the lack of a counterclaim scum would know with absolute certainty if there was a Doc or not and could claim with impunity.

[Thor665]

Ugh - Nacho, Equinox, could the two of you please kindly cease the current debate? I'd like to hear Haylen's thoughts on the Nacho/Nobody interplay and I'd like to hear Nobody chime in if he shows up again.

I think we're all aware the two of you think each other is scum, but since at least both Haylen and I seem to be serious about a Nobody lynch the current debate can easily be picked up again later if you're both alive, and if you're both not alive later then it won't matter. At the moment I feel it's mostly white noise.

If you'd like to debate at least focus on the Nobody lynch proposal which is on the table. Do you think it's a good idea? Am I obvious scum for proposing it? Is there a good likelihood that Nobody is/isn't telling the truth in your opinion? Ect, et al, ad naseum...

@Nacho - in particular to you, I'm surprised you didn't seem to have much of an opinion when I was pointing out to Haylen why I was thought town by most of the players present and Nobody was thought scum (and this included me interpreting your opinions without them having been specifically stated) Do you have any thoughts on what I did and how I interpreted your stance?

[Thor665]

* = I do wish you were more direct with that response, though. It's almost as if you want to leave some way out in case Nobody Special flips wrong.

I'm pretty sure if our lynch today flips "wrong" then we're not going to be worrying about it much later.

[Thor665]

Well, that's interesting. Equinox is now checked out and I think Haylen is comfortably set. I'm sticking with what I know - I'd like to see what Equinox/Nacho scum opt to do for the night kill.

No whammy, no whammy...

Vote: Nobody Special

(and dude, seriously, 'I always act scummy when town' as a defense? Somebody needs to modify their meta. )

I suppose my last will and testament will be - If I am noghtkilled make sure to go back and look for possible connections (or lack thereof) between Nobody and the remaining suspects.

[Thor665]

Do the above if I'm nightkilled too, though noghtkilling sounds less pleasant.

[Thor665]

Haylen,

Townie

, killed Night 3

Aww, you jerks. I was hoping to be NKed so I could later claim I'd figured it all out while dead (ever notice how perfectly everyone who has been NKed is able to figure out the scum? I get the same effect.)

Okay, I intend to look over the Nobody slot and see what connections I can draw. If either of you feel you have a knockout piece of evidence against the other feel free to toss it out for consideration and the other one may, of course, feel free to dispute it (dance, dance for my entertainment!)

In the end I'll probably just take a shot of tequila and pick randomly, but I like to pretend I'll have a good system going into it.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

I'm going to do a bit of rereading today, and I'm expecting to manage my coin flip no later then tomorrow as I figure anything past that will just have me starting to think myself in circles.

@Nacho - I see the biggest point in favor of Equinoxtown being her assault on Nobody Special right out of the gate yesterday. Why do you think she decided to bus at that time and in that manner?

@Equinox - I see the biggest point in favor of Nachocop as a combination of the risk the cop claim entailed if he was scum considering Nobody was the more busted scum paired with his legitimate shift of acting favorably towards Haylen at the start of Day 2 - what do you see as the logic in this being Nachoscum actions as opposed to Nachocop?

[Thor665]

I'm working through my re-read (and as promised I do intend to manage a vote sometime tomorrow). My current pickle is looking at Jerako (aka Nobody) and his early interactions with [no] (aka Equinox).

@Nacho - I'm guessing you're calling this action bussing/distancing from his partner, yes? My issue is that it basically went on from post one by Jerako up until his eventual replacement. It feels a little heavy to be simple distancing which means it had to be a bus attempt.

Seems a little odd for a bus at that stage of the game, what are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

Okay, I am full of suck and admit it, I haven't finished the re-read yet (only on page 10 - though I'm only reading up through the hohum lynch) and am not comfortable voting till then, so I'm taking a pass till sometime tomorrow (Thursday) where I'll vote no matter what since I'm starting to feel all my reading is just digging me more into WIFOM holes.

Nacho's answer to the Jerako on [no] violence is weak. Of course he's sitting back with his assuredness of being cop and having a result - so it's not like he needs to justify his suspicions much.

I had a gut suspicion on Sauron as there was always something there that rubs me the wrong way and it's hard to ignore a cop claim.

Conversely, without a cop claim I'd almost certainly be lynching Nacho right now as that's where I feel the evidence seems to be pointing since the pressure on Nobody and the [no] pressure from Jerako both feel a little different then simple distancing to me.

I wish you'd left Haylen alive and NKed me...

[Thor665]

Nobody's role blocker concepts Day 3 included him being the doctor, so by definition he needed to discuss the roleblocker. So that's a thought but hardly groundbreaking.

I'm breaking out for lunch shortly, after lunch I'll finish my re-read and so should be voting sometime prior to 3pm. I just also ended up losing another game that was in Mylo so am full of sad and shalt be even sadder if I pick wrong here - consequently I just won't pick wrong.

[Thor665]

Lol, I didn't even notice he targetted me. Also, it's stupid to kill the person attacking you.

I don't like this quote... It's waay to full of WIFOM for me to stomach.

This here is my biggest niggle for Nachocop I think. By this point he's claimed to have investigated Haylen yet chooses to dig at her in a roundabout way for WIFOM.

I'm going to step back and think about this a bit. If there are any last minute thoughts we want added please do so now. I'll be voting prior to 3pm EST.

[Thor665]

Okay, so the points against Nacho are;

Niggle on Haylen post investigation.
Bit of flip flop on Nobody.
Equinox going bus on Nobody and earlier bus by Jerako on [no] (strongest evidence is, I think, the Jerako bus on [no] which was pretty intense for a bus at that time)

The points against Equinox are;

Nacho definitely took the hard route to lynch by choosing Equinox over Haylen
Risk of scum cop claim with Nobody already in hot seat.


My gut says vote Nacho, my head says vote Equinox. I won't be happy if I'm wrong no matter which I chose to listen to. Whichever of you is scum definitely played an

excellent

game.

Vote: Equinox

I suppose in the final analysis - if I'm wrong at least I won't be wrong and also lynching a claimed cop

[Thor665]

Thor, that particular discussion was going nowhere, fast, and I figured that taking a tiny dig on Haylen like that (on a point that was waay to minor to figure in her lynch at all) would have a double purpose of distancing myself from her a little so I wouldn't be NKed for being an obvious cop, and stopping a considerably anti-town discussion.

In other news, I'm supposed to be leaving for a graduation right now, so this signals my departure from the game. Good luck, Thor!

I'll also add this - prior to this post I was almost definitely going to vote Nacho. But this was a really good and sensible answer and made me go back and reexamine. So in Nacho is scum, this was a brilliant counterploy answer, and if Nacho is town dear gawd thank you for posting this.

[Thor665]

Nacho definitely took the hard route to lynch by choosing Equinox over Haylen
Risk of scum cop claim with Nobody already in hot seat.

Risk doesn't mean anything in Mafia... as you shall soon learn.

In before mod lock and endgame:

I TOLD YOU SO!

Well pootie. Unfortunately you were hamstrung by scummy predecessors who didn't exactly help the situation.

Well played, Nacho.

[Thor665]

::shrug:: It's the nature of the game to have to balance evidence with your gut reads and go with what seems most functional to you.

[Thor665]

I don't agree with Thor's major points against Equinox/Sauron: at the time the "bussing" occurred, there was no need to bus, IIRC.

Actually that's what I was saying in those points. I was listing reasons each of them was not scum under their list, not reasons they were.

Really I think town's only "failing" this game was due to the hohum/Haylen situation. We allowed personal distaste for the actions used to cloud our thoughts and basically ended up wasting a lynch on him. Other then that I thought everyone played a really good game, I had a lot of fun.

[Thor665]

Out of curiosity, I'm curious (mostly at Thor) what in particular I did that you labeled mine a scummy position?

Actually Nacho was the one with a "case" on you. I know when I was scum (the one time thus far) I did base my cases on tells I'd legitimately pursue if I was town so you may wish to hit him up on his thoughts there.

For me it was pure gut, just something about your posts was rubbing me the wrong way. Clearly that was a bad gut read (shockingly enough they do happen) but it was one I could never fully shake. The lurking didn't help, of course.

[Thor665]

I'm as harmless as a pussycat?

I'm totally tunneling Nacho next game we play on principal alone