Mini 988 - Small Town Mafia GAME OVER

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Cuetlachtli

Never trust your former scumbuddies.

[Zachrulez]

Hi folks,

This is my first game out of the newbie compound so I'm unfamiliar with the set-up. Even so...

Vote: Exilon

because of this:

Let's all do this as soon as possible so mafia won't have time to night talk.

I predict one of the last players to confirm is scum.

Clearly scum eagerly hunting after town points.

That reasoning works for me.

Unvote: Vote: Exilon

WAGON HO!

[Zachrulez]

Unvoting is mandatory. (In bold.)

Lynch -1.

[Zachrulez]

I will not be voting this Random Voting Stage. I am far too afraid that my participation will out both me and my mafia buddies.

Instead, I will active lurk until I can find something that I can easily jump on and gain town points for.

RVS died in near record time in this game.

[Zachrulez]

Jason what do you think of Exilon?

[Zachrulez]

How do you end up both tired and hyper?

[Zachrulez]

your guys are rigt... that douse seem a little scummy dousent it?

vote: Exilon

but i could be completly wrong on this... he could just be a townie trying to give out some deacent advice....

also as you can see, im back

Scum justification of the vote... and then a backout, which he states in case he is wrong!!!

on top of the role fishing this hop on the wagon strikes me as odd

[n]vote: Butterfly[/b]

I don't agree with the rolefishing point, but that one did bother me about Butterfly.

[Zachrulez]

unvote

before i get in any more trouble

TOO LATE

Unvote: Vote: The Butterfly

[Zachrulez]

The butterfly does appear to be a fairly obvious vote at this point, he's said a few silly things.

However I'm going to assume he's fairly inexperienced and I can't count how many times both town and scum have jumped on the newbie early on simply because he/she isn't careful enough about what they say.

Also I feel like the whole "rolefishing" angle is a dead end, I think butterfly read the word "investigate" in Exilon's preceding post and his mind immediately jumped to cop which is why he mentioned it, null tell.

I just feel like I've gone down this road all to often with players like butterfly, and I'm not convinced he has any more chance of being scum than newb town.

Vote : Antonio

In the hopes that he'll say something.

Examples to the bold plz.

[Zachrulez]

YOUR NEWBIE CARD IS INVALID. GO BACK TWO SPACES.

[Zachrulez]

I'm adding plenty, you're just not paying attention.

The rest of the stuff isn't scummy.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach here are two newbie games I've played, they're the best examples of what I mean that I've played in on this site.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13232
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 10&start=0

Sure they are newbie games, but neither of the players were

complete

To be honest I find it quite weird a player of your experience needs examples, you must know what I mean. The bottom line is look at posts like this:

im sorry, im still really tired and not completly sure what im doing...
i think ill take an nap

unvote

before i get in any more trouble

They're too obvious guy, the only reason scum would ever say things like this is if they were newbs and coincidentally the only reason townies would say things like this is if they were newbs. I just feel like the probability of butterfly being scum is the same probability that any given player in our list is scum, and the silly comments he's made don't tell us anything.

I didn't need examples to understand the whole newbie getting into trouble early thing. I just wanted you to quantify your statement with examples that prove you're not just blowing smoke when you say you've run into it all too often.

[Zachrulez]

What's keeping you?

We're already getting into some serious discussion, so I do not see the point of forcing an RQS here at this rate.

+1

[Zachrulez]

@Concerned: I was going to look at the games you linked, but I saw the players that were the day 1 lynches in that game, and they speak for themselves. I can see why you'd be worried about newbie mistakes after playing with those two.

[Zachrulez]

That said, I still find The Butterfly scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Who said anything about a quick lynch?

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Zach

Seems to not be contributing all that much, and just asking questions without really trying to help out town (ironic since I've been afk and not contributing but hey!).

Try again.

[Zachrulez]

FTR, concise posting is NOT non-contribution.

[Zachrulez]

But I didn't meet the arbitrary post length requirements, that state that my post must be at least
^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
V

this big to count as contribution.

[Zachrulez]

@Parker: Position on Exilon? You commented on the Butterfly wagon but not on the Exilon wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Don't think we can all measure up to you.

Look, it's just the way I play. I've had a very similar discussion in a past game about my posting style and had to go to great length to explain how I'm actually contributing because people interpret my short concise posting as non contribution seemingly seeing only the length rather than the content.

I like to think that I make my thoughts and positions clear regardless, which is the most important thing to get across regardless of how you post.

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulez: Um, Exilon's bandwagon was fueled primarily from RVS comments, not on scumminess. Why is Exilon's bandwagon worth commenting on? The only notable things were that Exilon self-voted and got put at L-1. The bandwagon is gone I think.

Actually the point that led to his wagon was a valid point. I thought it was a solid basis for an early bandwagon, and I didn't like his early posting. (Particularly the self vote.)

Since then though, I feel he has redeemed himself somewhat through the content of his posting.

0x1de at least still thinks there's a solid basis for a Exilon wagon, and I think there's still a few votes on him too. (We haven't had a vote count yet, so I lost track of how many.)

So I think that it's still a wagon worth commenting on.

[Zachrulez]

Parker, if you want your vote on me to count, you need to unvote Exilon first, and then vote me.

[Zachrulez]

The Butterfly continues to disappoint.

I also saw some suspicion being thrown 0x1de's way, but I'm not sure why. My read of him is neutral/leaning town.

[Zachrulez]

Nacho's vote just sounds all wrong. My gut is not pleased.

[Zachrulez]

Do something about it, then. Try not going after the easy target for a second...

You're confusing easy with scummy.

Also telling me to stop being scummy while voting me... something about that statement just seems all wrong to me. (If you're actually trying to find scum and find me scummy, why would you want me to stop?)

[Zachrulez]

And instead of brushing off The Butterfly as an "easy target" maybe you could explain why The Butterfly is not scummy?

[Zachrulez]

lynch plz

[Zachrulez]

If Butterfly is scum, Nacho's scumminess rises exponentially.

[Zachrulez]

Did you miss that Butterfly just claimed scum?

[Zachrulez]

Why is Zach scummy?

Because he's pushing a lynch without making a case.

Unvote, Vote: Zachrulez

Stop being scummy.

Hypocrisy thy name is Nacho.

[Zachrulez]

And if you want a case against The Butterfly, the posts speak for themselves.

Iso 1: No game content
Iso 2: Bandwagons Exilon but leaves an out to appear cautious
Iso 3: Flavor Speculation
Iso 4: Another post driven by game flavor
Iso 5: Makes excuses for actions after accused by another player
Iso 6: Unvotes, more excuses for play
Iso 7: Makes a late RVS vote?
Iso 8: Unvotes, reasoning is to stay out of trouble
Iso 9: Repeats excuse in iso5. We heard you the first time.
Iso 10: Newbie defense.
Iso 11: No game content
Iso 12: No game content
Iso 13: No game content
Iso 14: Excuses for lack of game content, claims to have no suspects.
Iso 15: Oh, he lied, he does have suspects.
Iso 16: Scum claim. WE SHOULD BE LYNCHING HIM RIGHT NOW AFTER THIS POST
Iso 17: Excuse for scum claim (1 minute after the scum claim.)
Iso 18: Deflects with joke vote.
Iso 19: Repeats excuse that it was his brother.

Srsly, very very scummy play, lynch nao.

[Zachrulez]

Hypocrisy thy name is Nacho.

I'm pretty sure I can't eat Hypocrisy, but I admit it would be funny.

Jason, Zach: Why should we lynch Butterfly right away?
Deadline isn't even close, many players still need more attention, heck, some players haven't even posted.

Deadline's a non issue. There's no set amount of time that the day should be.
Content from less active players is a valid concern. Still see no reason to drag along the day at this point and risk a distraction that allows the scum butterfly to slip away. (The whole reason for active lurking is to allow exactly that to happen.)

[Zachrulez]

Hate the VI defense, it a bad defense.

Here's a clue, VIs can be scum too, and they can do things that are legitimately scummy. (As opposed to anti-town and just dumb.)

In every VI-town lynch I've seen, the VI AT LEAST tries to scumhunt in their own way, as opposed to VI scum, who just active lurk and post stupid looking things to get people who are afraid of lynching VI-town to actually defend their play.

Also the Butterfly IS the optimal lynch at this point, for many reasons.

1. He's legitimately scummy.
2. He's claimed vanilla, which makes it suboptimal to run anyone else up at this point. (Narrows down possible prs, and risks outting them outright.)
3. He's not worth saving even if town because he's a lynch liability later on in a situation where lynching him later will do far more harm than it will now if he's not scum. (Though I maintain his chances of flipping scum are still high.)
4. He's claimed scum. There's a psychological aspect to the idea of scum claims coming from people who are actually scum who want to tell people their role on a subconscious level. The easiest way to do that is to admit it in a joking manner so that they can then say they weren't serious about it. It might sound silly to some, but in my experience it's been pretty effective as a tell. (It's not as effective in RVS because people like to say random things and make jokes about being scum when they're not. Which explains why I don't find it as damning for Nacho.)

[Zachrulez]

@Concerned: I'm heavily against lynching now. We haven't used nearly enough time in this game to analyze other players. We should lynch when it gets close to the deadline. That way, we'll be a lot more certain on a lynch, plus we'll get more information out of it, even if it's on the same person.

Disagree. Just because there's time to deadline doesn't mean that we have to use it all. There is a such thing as too much discussion. Also, scrambling for lynches at deadline tends to result in weaker lynches.

[Zachrulez]

By the way, Jason is town.

[Zachrulez]

Jason, Ox was saying that he thought we seemed eager for an early lynch. That was his opinion.

He never said that we actually stated that we wanted a quick lynch.

I really don't see him twisting facts. I just see him coming to a different conclusion that I obviously don't agree with.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, you mean because he tried to make it sound as though it appeared out of thin air?

[Zachrulez]

By the way, Jason is town.

and how would you know this?
jason could eassily be mafia just as anyone else...
so how would you know that she is town if she is?

Maybe I just have a good read on him.

[Zachrulez]

By the way, are you planning on making use of your vote anytime soon Butterfly?

[Zachrulez]

In the process of finding all my topics.

Stand by...

[Zachrulez]

I'm a little wary of your relationship though. You've both declared the other as town and then had a cosy little chat. Have either of you got anything to say about that?

Not really... no.

Jason actively avoids doing any of the things he gets noticed for when he is scum, which he's not doing in this game, so the chances of him being town are high.

[Zachrulez]

Also heads up to the mod in case a lynch happens, you can't post with the thread locked, and you can't unlock once you've locked. The admins are trying to figure out that issue.

[Zachrulez]

I am used to seeing Cuet being more active in general.

I wouldn't be surprised if the scumteam turned out to be Butterfly, Nacho and davidparker.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry, but no... age or grammer has nothing to do with scum hunting.

Ninjaed... I was about to make a point to this in more words.

Still don't think 0x is scum though.

[Zachrulez]

Hmmmm...

UNVOTE:

[Zachrulez]

@0x: If you could lynch anyone today who would it be?

[Zachrulez]

Parker's been posting in other games, but I've yet to see anything from him here.

Anyway, Concerned's last post was extremely scummy. He's pushing for the lynch, but isn't on the wagon, presumably cause he wants someone else to hammer.

VOTE: Concerned

[Zachrulez]

I don't really have a read on the Antonio slot. He hasn't really posted anything. I think it's more likely he's flaked at this point rather than actively lurking.

(Maybe the mod can clarify that situation?)

[Zachrulez]

Eh, look back to my previous posts, I was awaiting the town's go-ahead to hammer as well as some input from antonio, as far as I'm concerned we aren't quite done discussing day 1.

I am for the butterfly wagon and I am willing to hammer, I was just letting discussion take it's course. How Jason and Zach found that scummy is really beyond me.

Your post felt fake.

Also felt like you're putting pressure on another player to hammer while supporting a different lynch with your vote.

[Zachrulez]

Concerned's recent post looks really scummy to me and is making me start to doubt whether Butterfly will actually flip scum.

I still wouldn't mind seeing Butterfly, Concerned, Parker, or Nacho eat the noose today. I'm kinda thinking that Concerned's recent post warrents a bandwagon on him, but I'm a bit weary of pulling pressure from Butterfly, running someone else up, and then starting to see more demands for a claim.

Which raises another point I wanted to make. DON'T ASK FOR A CLAIM unless you're in a position to actually hammer the lynch. The result of acquiring a claim in any other way results in premature claiming, and puts pressure on lynching on policy rather than because it's the best move. It also makes it strategically shaky to run someone else up to a lynch as it risks multiple claims. (Which is the conundrum I am in now because I feel that developments warrant pressure on a different player but Butterfly has already claimed.)

[Zachrulez]

^ He's afraid of hammering.

[Zachrulez]

Saying Exilon was actively calling for a modkill is a stretch.

[Zachrulez]

I doubt we're all going to agree on what is in good game spirit, and even if everyone agreed on that, there's the matter of whether or not it's scummy... and I think it's reaching to say it is in the context of what exilon actually said.

[Zachrulez]

Both Nacho and Parker seem to be avoiding this game while posting in others.

Most of the rest of the bad activity delinquency is coming from players who are not posting anywhere else on site. (I went and did a search on those who hadn't posted in more than 3 days.)

We do need prods.

[Zachrulez]

I'm still not liking how concerned seemed to be avoiding a hammer on Butterfly, and then was totally willing to throw his vote on him once he was taken off lynch -1.

I would be fine with a concerned, butterfly, davidparker, or nacho lynch. (Less so on a Nacho lynch though.)

I'm willing to hammer The Butterfly before the deadline becomes an issue. (Around a few days before.) Though personally, I'd like to see a lynch wagon form on either davidparker or Concerned a little more though.

[Zachrulez]

^ Good posting. Cuet is town.

[Zachrulez]

In particular I agree that Parker is scum.

[Zachrulez]

Davidparker, you haven't done a paticularly good job explaining your Butterfly vote or what changed your mind about how scummy he looked. (You went from thinking he wasn't to thinking he was.) You seemed disinterested in him at first, and suddenly became interested in lynching him after several people found him suspicious.

[Zachrulez]

Once everyone on the Butterfly wagon checks in, (Currently waiting on SSBF and Foobert.) I will hammer butterfly.

[Zachrulez]

Is there any reason I shouldn't hammer this insect right now?

[Zachrulez]

UNVOTE:

I'm more suspicious of David Parker at this point than I am of Concerned anyway.

sry for not posting but i still dont have much time right now even after this weekend...
also i dont think theres really anyway to save myself in this game. almost everything i say someone finds some way to point it toward scum, like they are trying to make it so that nobody can see them as scum, Jason.
becouse of this i would be voteing for Jason but i see Antonio a lot more scummy becouse he has been posting less game content then i have. he aslo has not been posting at all. this makes him seem very scummy to me.

Hate this entire post. It backhands everyone on his wagon, attacks Jason without any specific accusation, and states that his top suspect is Antonio, for reasons that are the equivalent of calling the kettle black.

[Zachrulez]

This has gone on long enough.

VOTE: The Butterfly

[Zachrulez]

Ok, enough.

UNVOTE: Antonio,VOTE: Butterfly

I think we got lots of good information to go into Day 2.

Too late. ^ _ ^

[Zachrulez]

Re-reading.

[Zachrulez]

This surprises me given DP was called out by a few on day 1 as possible scum.

If the scum are worried about a doctor the kill makes sense as he was probably the least likely to be protected.

[Zachrulez]

The possibility just occurred to me that he could have been vigged.

I'm too used to newbie games...

[Zachrulez]

VOTE: Nachomamma

His vote on me on page 7 and his justification for it looks like an epic chainsaw defense.

[Zachrulez]

Antonio's not being lynched today. He was the counter wagon to Butterfly.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, what evidence do you have to suggest that Butterfly was trying to misdirect by voting for his scumbuddy?

If there isn't a glaring link, there's no reason to presume it.

[Zachrulez]

I think the simpler explanation is more likely. Lurking was an easy thing for Butterfly to attack, which is why he threw his vote on Antonio.

[Zachrulez]

I still think Antonio is a poor lynch choice.

People who were chainsaw defending Butterfly, and people who were making excuses for Butterfly (whether they eventually ended up on the wagon or not) are people that should be getting looked at.)

The people most guilty of this are Nachomamma, Ox, and Exilon (Who in particular paid a lot of lip service to the wagon but spent a large portion of the day avoiding it.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm not sure that Concerned's vote on Butterfly was a bus. I found him scummy in a manner that it appeared like he was distancing from what would eventually be a butterfly town flip. This did not happen, so the tone of what I saw doesn't really match up with Concerned scum. I would probably put him somewhere in the middle in level of suspicion.

[Zachrulez]

I think there's definitely at least one scum in Nacho, 0x, and Exilon... possibly more.

[Zachrulez]

@Exilon

I still think Antonio is a poor lynch choice.

People who were chainsaw defending Butterfly, and people who were making excuses for Butterfly (whether they eventually ended up on the wagon or not) are people that should be getting looked at.)

The people most guilty of this are Nachomamma, Ox, and Exilon (Who in particular paid a lot of lip service to the wagon but spent a large portion of the day avoiding it.)

[Zachrulez]

Well I'm very pleased with the kills. We lynched scum (well you guys did) and they took out my prime suspect.

Why are you pleased with the death of your prime suspect? The fact is that he flipped town and town death are never good. I should have posted this out earlier.

FoS: 0x1de

Lynching him would have been a waste of time and a worse outcome. That is something we don't need to worry about or bother with now.

[Zachrulez]

I also need to take a closer look at Exilon. His day one actions to me don't look consistent with a desire to see Butterfly lynched. His actions at a glance look more consistent with an interest in finding another wagon that would catch on. What disturbs me is that these positions are flying under most people's radars as well while interest is split off between Nacho and 0x.

Personally, my order of suspicion among the three has Nacho and Exilon at the top, and then 0x.

What it comes down to is that 0x's play just looks more open to me than Nacho or Exilon's.

[Zachrulez]

Though Nacho remains the best lynch candidate, as it's pretty unforgivable that he took the time to respond to SSBF, but completely ignored my chainsaw defense accusation.

[Zachrulez]

I've never seen it, and it looks and sounds very confusing.

[Zachrulez]

Nacho, who's scum?

[Zachrulez]

@0x

I'm not sure that Concerned's vote on Butterfly was a bus. I found him scummy in a manner that it appeared like he was distancing from what would eventually be a butterfly town flip. This did not happen, so the tone of what I saw doesn't really match up with Concerned scum. I would probably put him somewhere in the middle in level of suspicion.

That is how I see Concerned right now

[Zachrulez]

Being wrong doesn't automatically make one scum.

[Zachrulez]

The problem with the argument is that it's not presented as evidence that 0x is scum, but rather as 'proof' to the assumption that 0x is scum.

There's no proof, there's evidence and likelihood. Town's can't be certain. (Except in rare cases.) They can only decide what is most likely and lynch on that path.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP, some minor cleanup.

The problem with the argument is that it's not presented as evidence that 0x is scum, but rather as 'proof' to the assumption that 0x is scum.

There's no proof, there's evidence and likelihood. Towns can't be certain. (Except in rare cases.) They can only decide what is most likely and lynch on that path.

[Zachrulez]

bloody hell, all these text walls are making it hard to catch up. Right now my top 3 suspects would be Ox, Ex and Nacho.. Part of me thinks the Ox/Ex arguing is being used to distance each other if they are both scum.

Here's a more summarized conclusion for easier reading:

Vote for Nacho.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not that interested in lynching 0x today.

I wouldn't be broken up over an Exilon lynch though.

[Zachrulez]

Nacho still is my number one suspect... however if he is not scum... Ox/Ex are the pairing. I would put anything on it

What, even a vote?

Score for wit. I cracked up.

[Zachrulez]

I think there's definitely at least one scum in Nacho, 0x, and Exilon... possibly more.

That's great, Zach.
Why?

Day Two Vote Count #2

(as of post # 470)

Cuetlachtli - [0]

Exilon - [0]

Zachrulez - [0]

jasonT1981 - [0]

0x1de - [2]

Exilon, Cuetlachtli

Nachomamma8 - [3]

Zachrulez, Super Smash Bros. Fan, 0x1de

Super Smash Bros. Fan - [0]

DavidParker - [0]

Concerned - [0]

Antonio - [1]

Concerned

Not Voting - [4] Antonio, DavidParker, jasonT1981, Nachomamma8

Oh heeeeeeeey, it seems like Exilon agrees with me.

[Zachrulez]

Anyways....hey Zach, did you consider this post before you hammered Butters?

Butterfly post your reads on EVERYBODY before you are hammered. k thx.

Conceivably he should have done that long before you posted...

... and I didn't hammer immediately after that anyway. I waited until around the time that Butterfly seemed to be posting during the day... but he never posted. He also never reacted very positively to people asking him for reads or suspicions anyway, it was like pulling teeth. Is there a reason for this inquiry? Is there a reason this inquiry doesn't apply to Exilon? (Who attempted to hammer almost right after I did.)

[Zachrulez]

Anyways....hey Zach, did you consider this post before you hammered Butters?

Butterfly post your reads on EVERYBODY before you are hammered. k thx.

Conceivably he should have done that long before you posted...

... and I didn't hammer immediately after that anyway. I waited until around the time that Butterfly seemed to be posting during the day... but he never posted. He also never reacted very positively to people asking him for reads or suspicions anyway, it was like pulling teeth. Is there a reason for this inquiry? Is there a reason this inquiry doesn't apply to Exilon? (Who attempted to hammer almost right after I did.)

Well we had a couple days before the deadline. You hammered Butters on Tuesday or Wednesday and the deadline was that Saturday. I just thought it was slightly scummy that you didn't give him a chance to respond to me. It is scummy because, hypothetically, scum-Zach wouldn't want newb-scum Butters to give reads right before his imminent death because he might slip up in some way, shape, or form. I thought I would bring this up since you are adamant that you don't want to lynch Ox today, a player I find very scummy. Would scum-Zach have much incentive to double buss his scum partners with potentially 8 townies remaining? I don't think so. I also want to add that when we were scum partners in that one newbie game, you started to distance me on Day 1 and ultimately tried to buss me on Day 2. Meta says that Zach likes to buss when he is scum.

Does this mean that Zach is scum? No. But it serves as a "red flag" and I think it is beneficial for the town to know moving forward.

Well reasoned hammers aren't scummy. In the position he was in, he knew he was almost certainly being lynched and he knew what he was going to flip, so I don't think it was that likely he was going to reply to your request for reads anyway. As it was, I didn't rush the hammer at all. Like I said, I waited through the morning, as that was the usual time of day he usually posted, so if he found it imperative to reply to your request, I expect he would have done so then. When he didn't, and the day dragged through lunchtime, I decided that it was time to lay down the hammer. (I don't believe in the argument for waiting till right before the deadline to hammer.)

I think you're being paranoid. (In a pro-town way.) I also submit that if I was scum and worried about Butterfly slipping up and giving the town info, I was capable of hammering him well before I actually did.

[Zachrulez]

As for 0x. You make some interesting points about him. I just don't feel as strongly about your conclusion of him as you do.

I also simply find Nacho scummier. Him voting me in direct defense of butterfly is an extremely scummy action, and he's done relatively little aside from this. On top of those raised points, Nacho simply isn't being as pro-active as I would expect him to be. I see it as a strong sign that he has a scum alignment.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... dard_Tells

See chainsaw defense. This is why I feel strongly that Nachomamma is the best lynch.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=225

WHAT A SCOOP!

Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

[Zachrulez]

Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

Why has it taken so long for you to bring that up?

You can't use meta from an ongoing game. That game just finished and I just got confirmation of his alignment in that game just yesterday.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, I just saw that Nacho claimed Vanilla.

We can proceed with lynching him now.

[Zachrulez]

cuet: scum read - seems a bit too sure that butterfly will flip scum.. Interesting post: #368. If cuet flips scum like i think he will, can safely clear concerned as well (david parker (version 1) and nacho were both town).

Basically, cuet says if butterfly is scum, those 3 ppl should be looked at. 2 flipped town upon death. 1 is giving me a town vibe. seems to be some major misdirection. Also, jason is still alive (the one who insists cuet is town). If you're scum and a player insists you are town, you sure as hell dont kill off that player. And jason has been very pro-town all game.

Hey DP, don't you think its odd that half of my scum suspects died during the night? Why would hypo-scum Cuet kill off his scum suspects during the night? Who do you suppose hypo-scum Cuet is going to strawman during the day when all that's left is pro-town players?

In Newbie 859... you actually did exactly that when you killed Haylen.

[Zachrulez]

That said, I generally dislike Parker's post.

[Zachrulez]

Hey DP, don't you think its odd that half of my scum suspects died during the night? Why would hypo-scum Cuet kill off his scum suspects during the night? Who do you suppose hypo-scum Cuet is going to strawman during the day when all that's left is pro-town players?

In Newbie 859... you actually did exactly that when you killed Haylen.

And how did that turn out for me? Not that well huh? Don't you think hypo-scum Cuet would learn from his mistakes?

I'm merely pointing out that I've seen you do kills in that style which goes against the WIFOM argument that you're making in your own defense. I'm not saying that the argument moved me.

[Zachrulez]

i just posted my thoughts as they came to me upon rereading the past few days happening.

And i think it's more than likely one of my "pro-town" players is in fact scum.

Also, just a note for those who forgot: I replaced foobert day 2.

Which one?

[Zachrulez]

Hmm, I think my vote is semi-prejudiced by your day 1 actions, coming in late and stating how you thought btuterfly was scum from page 1 when you only put at L-1 vote on him or something.

Just rereading day 2 properly and not sure what to make of it entirely.

@all: what explanation is there for the scummiest townie dying both night 1 and night 2?!?!?

So you're backing off on Cuet scum now, and deciding that it would be a better idea to speculate on the setup?

[Zachrulez]

i'm purely speculating.. so ugh.. no???

gonna go sleep.

I still find cuet scummy. I find SSBF more scummy I think upon reevaluation. I don't think it's a better idea to speculate on the setup, but surely we can do both at the same time. It was just such an absurd thing to happen 2 nights in a row...

Unvote

Vote: SSBF

Anyways, as said going to sleep. If you're nice you might get cases tomorrow, although I have a few job interviews.

Oh right.

Here's some motivation for that.

Vote: Davidparker

[Zachrulez]

cool, but i expect a case on me by the time i wake up!

Flailing your vote around, backing off of Cuet after initially attacking him, and voting SSBF without a case while commenting on the strange nature of the kills and then questioning why it happened aren't good enough?

[Zachrulez]

And agreeing in said strange nature of kills that the previous slot you played in was scummy. That just goes beyond bizarre.

[Zachrulez]

I do believe we are witness to imploding scum here.

[Zachrulez]

... ok, time to pull the rug from this one for the time being.

Unvote:

[Zachrulez]

David Parker, its time to claim. Come on down!

Stop doing that!

[Zachrulez]

And let's just take a quick look at our context here.

In the span of a few hours after the start of they day we're running davidparker up to lynch -1 before he has a chance to respond to the pressure placed upon him. Demanding a claim at a point where pressure formed way too fast and lynch danger is high right after the start of the day, based on DavidParker's opening comments.

Both lynch -1 and a claim demand are way too premature, especially in light of the current situation. Exilon, another player I'm suspicious of and wouldn't mind lynching has not even posted yet, and is a player I am most interested in hearing from.

Short days are bad for the town.

[Zachrulez]

I think the fact this bandwagon got so quickly to L-1 points to me being town. Anyways, I'll make a better post later tonight (its morning, just woke up, headin off to interviews), my timezone is in australia. I'll respond to all your concerns when I can properly do so, right now just acknowledging them.

What do you think it says of the people that hopped on it? You can answer this along with the rest when you get a chance to post again.

[Zachrulez]

Meh, Jason's not scum.

Parker probably isn't either.

Exilon probably is.

Vote: Exilon

[Zachrulez]

Let's recap why Jason is town.

By the way, Jason is town.

and how would you know this?
jason could eassily be mafia just as anyone else...
so how would you know that she is town if she is?

The end.

[Zachrulez]

That's nice. Also it doesn't prove anything.
Also Butterfly has mentioned me in a similar way, which several people have pointed as being a 'town clue' in my favor.
Yet you're voting me.

He also did that early in the game and left an out for you.

[Zachrulez]

your guys are rigt... that douse seem a little scummy dousent it?

vote: Exilon

but i could be completly wrong on this... he could just be a townie trying to give out some deacent advice....

also as you can see, im back

[Zachrulez]

An out basically means he created a criteria in which you could be town, so the suspicion he was trying to cast isn't quite the same as the one I cited for Jason.

Though on re-read, I interpret that more as him trying to excuse your lynch... so I can see your point now I suppose.

Meh...

Unvote:

Jason parrots me a lot when he's town. It's when he doesn't do it that you should start to wonder if something is up.

[Zachrulez]

I am probably going to prefer pressuring someone on the Parker wagon that's not Jason.

[Zachrulez]

On a side-note, I don't think parroting is a good way to play a game. Besides, it looks scummy as hell. still, if that's a meta-reference, I'll give it a leeway.

I agree with you. I've had discussions with him in the past about it, but the behavior persists.

[Zachrulez]

I voted you mostly for the purposes of pressuring you to put out more content. The vote was not even close to an actual intention to lynch, and the wagon quickly got out of hand so I rescinded my vote.

As for the kills, (And I don't think 0xide was a particularly horrible choice for scum as he was proactive.) it's probably just as simple as scum operating under the presumption of a doctor and making kills they see as having a high probability for success. (Or intentional beyond that for WIFOM.)

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Concerned

His current mindset seems to contrast with his cautious mindset on day 1, where he no longer seems concerned about lynches as he once was. This is a common scum mindset change from early to mid/endgame.

[Zachrulez]

Over discussing the kill can't really lead anywhere productive. The only place it really can lead is to outting prs, which isn't good at all. If we have any prs with worthwhile information, they will decide when it's time to reveal said information to us. Outside of that, town has no way to know what happened at night and speculating is just guessing with a shot in the dark.

[Zachrulez]

We've been fortunate. That's pretty much the extent of it. There's no reason for those who aren't involved in the kills to want to discuss them, hence you are scum.

Who, me or DP?

[Zachrulez]

Vote: David Parker

after reading 25 pages; i cba to post a full case just yet...but will do Day four

How about you do it now?

[Zachrulez]

Wow... this is going to be fun.

[Zachrulez]

I'm gonna

Unvote:

For the record, one or both of the kills could still be vig and scum crosskills.

[Zachrulez]

Concerned, important question. What is your kill flavor?

[Zachrulez]

I don't know what you mean by kill flavour but the flavour around my role was virtually minuscule. "You are the vigilante", "You used to enjoy life until..." etc etc.

I'm not a one shot vig, nor am I some sort of even night vigilante, I get a night kill every night. Period.

I still think DP is scum, nothing he has said has changed my mind.
I'd still like to here from millar and Exilon though, and I don't want to see DP hammered just yet.

So your role doesn't really say anything about how you kill?

I was kinda hoping to shed light on the flavor of both kills. (Which might still apply anyway as the mod could establish flavor without necessarily making you aware of your own flavor.)

It is worth noting that both kills where chopped up AND shot. Getting shot doesn't really mesh with being chopped up, so the evidence would seem to back up Concerned's claim that he's a vig anyway, and it's likely that the "chopping up" is the scum's method of kill. (My presumptions in this matter go to the fact that Vigilantes generally have a gun and kill by that method.)

I'm pretty willing to hammer Parker at this point to be honest. Him suggesting a Bus Driver as an explanation to the kills and then claiming vanilla doesn't seem to Jive at all. (Not to mention the need to have the kills explained in the first place.)

[Zachrulez]

Concerned is looking scummier and scummier. I'll have a bigger post by night (Sorry for the delay, really, got distracted by Persona 4). There's one or two theories I'd like to discuss. They are about the claim (obv) and hypo-scum Concerned. Vig claim can = SK.
gGve it some thought before I bring it out the artillery.

Also, an alternate bandwagon should be built on Millar.

ORLY?

I think Concerned's reaction to a Busdriver suggestion is much more interesting than the busdriver suggestion itself. In fact, I don't really find a problem with suggesting stuff or Nightkill analysis ideas, if it can help catch scum.

True, doesn't help much, but to me it looks more like curiosity than trying to fish for PR's.

Why?

[Zachrulez]

Well, i explained it as being purely curiousity! Duh. why would i lie!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!

i don't like how you so quickly bought his vig claim... to be honest, that was the last thing i expected from his position. It has just made him look scummier. Why even claim? he wasn't at L-1... He claims, and says he killed BOTH people who were killed. It doesn't add up.

Also, do you honestly think that scum went for the two players agreed to be the scummiest in the game on their respective days (after the person gettin lynched) AND it happened to overlap kills with our vig??? That is just not something i'm willing to believe.

WHAT IS THE SCUM MOTIVATION TO FAKECLAIM PRIOR TO LYNCH THREAT PRESSURE? (Lynch -1)

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE SEEMINGLY TWO DIFFERENT FLAVORS FOR THE KILL? (HOW DOES BEING CHOPPED UP AND SHOT CORRESPOND TO 1 KILL?)

End caps.

As for vig/scum crosskills, I've seen it happen before.

[Zachrulez]

To be blunt, we're not lynching the claimed vig today. To even suggest that we should lynch the claimed vig today is pretty scummy in itself.

[Zachrulez]

If you don't think we should do it, then why are you trying to dirty me up for buying the claim? That makes NO SENSE.

[Zachrulez]

Illogical and unnecessary claims happen more often than you'd think. I've seen many in my time.

[Zachrulez]

More importantly, IF Concerned is a vig, we have a town controlled kill and we'd be fools to lynch the role away.

[Zachrulez]

Well my post wasn't entirely a response to you. Exilon was noting that Concerned seemed scummier to him. (And I am finding him scummy as a result.)

[Zachrulez]

My vote has moved around a little bit today, what does that say about me? Why haven't you attacked me for it?

[Zachrulez]

One question I wanted to ask everyone regarding Millar was if they had ever actually played with him before.

I classify Millar as a VI type player, thus all the stupid things he is likely to do in a mafia game need to be considered accordingly.

HOWEVER. Antonio's slot did nothing but lurk and escape pressure, and never actually participated in the game. Now Millar has replaced in and essentially done the same thing, while being very active elsewhere. This is not something I have experienced with town Millar and I have to wonder now if there's a method behind this lurking that's been going on with this player slot.

Vote: Millar13

[Zachrulez]

Mod: Please prod Millar13

[Zachrulez]

Hey Millar, you going to start scumhunting at any point?

[Zachrulez]

Important reading.

That would be the other game I played in with Millar. You'll notice a stark difference in the tone of Millar's posts and the intention with which he makes them. (And also that they are more numerous.)

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow.

[Zachrulez]

There were only 2 scum?

lol

[Zachrulez]

I guess if the vig was the only town pr... that would actually not be that bad.

[Zachrulez]

I got im .

Good job!

[Zachrulez]

Pretty much the entirety of why I thought you might be scum - Zach said so.

Nuff said .

lol, awesome.

[Zachrulez]

honestly, going into the last day, the only person who seemed blatantly scummy to me was SSBF (the other possible scum slot was probably mine).. it just didnt add up, which is why ppl started reaching on ppl who seemed townish.. that's why i had to keep stating how one of my many town reads is probably scum.

turns out.. nope.

Millar actually saved you that last day. I was probably going to go back to your lynch with Concerned's claim.

It was a good thing we didn't lynch him either, cause I had a town read on SSBF.

[Zachrulez]

I can see the theory going about it either way. If you kill off the townie people, suspicion might eventually lead to you. If you kill scummy players, you can theoretically confuse the town. I think that's what he was going for.

[Zachrulez]

Actually if you requested replacement, you were no longer actually part of the game and it no longer counts as a win for you.

[Zachrulez]

Do not feed the troll .

No, feed the pig instead. Or else he might vig you.