Open 227 - Friends and Enemies

[ZeroFang]

Ythan is awesome cause we said so, and we said so cause Ythan is awesome.

Everyone agrees with said logic, correct?

[ZeroFang]

VOTE: Ythan for being so freaking awesome.

[ZeroFang]

Speaking of my avatar, who knows who this is?

[ZeroFang]

July 7th, eh?

chauchaudotcom is the 7th player on the list! Therefore, chauchaudotcom is MAFIA!

VOTE: chauchaudotcom

[ZeroFang]

>.>
<.<

I felt bad cause I voted Ythan as my RV but then someone else voted him too. I'd feel weird if I just unvoted, so I voted someone based on something arbitrary, like the dead line.

[ZeroFang]

EBWOP You'll noticed I did it Da Vinci code-esk. That was the "two whole lines of explaining my RV".

Why do I have to explain my "justification" for random votes? That makes no sense...

[ZeroFang]

See, the only purpose of RVS is to start having a conversation. Without a conversation, we can't hunt scum cause there's nothing to go on.

You see my double vote (unintentionally, I might add) started this discussion. Don thought it was suspicious, so he spoke up. Now we're out of RVS (I think). Thus RVS has served it's purpose, and we can move on to more substantial conversation.

[ZeroFang]

Also if you felt bad then why didn't you mention it in the first place instead of just throwing a second vote out? Did you want us to ignore your first vote?

It's kinda weird to explain that you felt bad just randomly so I didn't mention it until I was questioned about it. It's one of those things like taking the urinal right beside the only other guy who's using one. It's just weird to me. I didn't care if you ignored my other vote or not, but I did forget to unvote. Sorry for skipping over your questions.

@Xite I know you're V/LA now but playing on the forums is WAY different than the IRL game. The mechanics are the same, but there's no "reading" people from facial expressions or verbal queues. By the same token, the best scum are the ones that blend in perfectly with the town. It's a forum, so you can write whatever you want in whatever mindset you want. You don't have to worry about your voice being too shaky when you claim vanilla.

[ZeroFang]

I noticed two other people voted him. I didn't mean to start a bandwagon on Ythan for being awesome, so I felt somewhat responsible. Another reason I changed it was to spread out the votes incase more people happened to voted for him. I wouldn't want to cut today off after 48 hours on a RV wagon. That's just stupid and a little mean.

[ZeroFang]

I've seen it happen once before. Maybe it was just a fluke, because I've never seen anything quite like it again.

[ZeroFang]

Because he had commented after voting?

[ZeroFang]

Don I agree with you here in a lot of respects. Some players are generally anti-town. That's just how they play, regardless of actual role or alignment. I agree with that. I also agree that those anti-town players aren't necessarily scum because that's just how they act. I don't agree, however, that we should lynch Lowell because he's an easy lynch on the chance that he's scum. He hasn't even posted yet, so we don't know anything about him. Only the scum vote people out because they're an easy target, and that's what you just suggested we do.

Unvote;

Vote: don_johnson

[ZeroFang]

@ZeroFang: Why do you say you felt "bad?" Were you worried others might criticize you for having voted him first? Why not question those who dogpiled on him after you?

Why would I question the two other guys who voted for him? We were in RVS. Nobody has to explain anything (except me, obviously). I say I felt bad because I did feel bad. I find it kinda mean to bandwagon someone for no reason. I know it's not my fault that people voted Ythan after I did, but it's just one of those things where I still feel partially responsible even though I'm not. I wasn't worried others would criticize me because I voted randomly. I can't be blamed for starting a wagon on someone when the vote was based on whatever name I pulled out of a hat.

[ZeroFang]

and neither of you have noticed zero voting dj for "suggesting we lynch lowell for his anti-town behavior"?

Don't put words in my mouth. You'll actually get quite a different reasoning if you quote the post in question:

I don't agree, however, that we should lynch Lowell because he's an easy lynch on the chance that he's scum. He hasn't even posted yet, so we don't know anything about him. Only the scum vote people out because they're an easy target, and that's what you just suggested we do.

By the way, voting someone who voted you is only OMGUS-ish if that's your only reason. When you've explained your reasoning, it's not. The quote above shows that you know my reasoning isn't that you voted for me, and infact it's not at all why I voted you.

[ZeroFang]

Eh, I've done quick posts like that before because I didn't have time to do a long post (which I am in the process of making). That isn't a solid case.

XScorpion ironically did the same thing he accused CSL of doing. He voted without really stating his case. Hypocrite much?

[ZeroFang]

I said in that post I'm making a larger one.

[ZeroFang]

I agree with Ythan and chauchaudotcom (who I think have both made similar points) in so much as that

Don ignores what is being said to him and talks about irrelevant things

instead.

zero's vote on me is based on my wanting to lynch lowell for his anti-town behavior. if anyone wants to reread and quote where i suggested this, please do. i never suggested we lynch lowell. my case on zero is based on the fact that he left his first rvs vote with poor reasoning. then he voted me with false reasoning.

Don, please get glasses or something. Lowell hasn't posted anything all game, so there is no anti-town behavior present here. Even if that's his meta, it still means nothing and is irrelevant until he posts something and we can evaluate whether it's scummy or not. You suggested we not replace Lowell because he'll be an easy lynch if he's scum. If he's a scummy town player, we don't need him in this game. Scummy town isn't helpful to anyone but the scum. RVS votes mean nothing, even if I had two. They're merely a way to start up conversation, and I'd say your accusation of me for my RVS vote(s) was quite revealing.

the argument is, and has been, that i think zero is scum based on his behavior.

What behavior? My RVS random behavior?

okey dokey. let me know if you need me then.

Don, we're still questioning you. You can't just up and lurk when things get a little too heated. If life gets in the way that's understandable, but lurking because you're under fire is highly suspicious.

You voted him because...?

I originally voted him because (I thought) he suggested we lynch Lowell. Read below:

when did Don ever say that he wanted us to lynch Lowell?

He didn't. I misread. However, I'm keeping my vote on him for several reasons:

• -He suggested we keep Lowell in the game because he's an easy lynch, rather than wanting him to be replaced because he'll drag the town down (according to Don's meta read on him. Lowell hasn't posted all game and I'm too lazy to seek out confirmation for some guy who's gonna be replaced anyway).
  -He's trying to get me lynched for my RV(s) and for voting him
  -He's skewing people's words and misrepresenting their posts
  -He's blatantly ignoring everything we're trying to tell him and continues to push a crap case

[ZeroFang]

If Don was a Mason, I'd like to think he would claim. Infact, it might be beneficial for the Masons to claim. I don't recommend doing this now (that'd give the mafia a head start in picking them off at night) but it would give us a boost and show who's behavior is cleared and who's behavior is actually scummy. For instance, AKR and XScorpion might seem like they're defending Don, but if they were all Masons this would clear all three (just an example, I'm not suggesting anything, you're the first two above me as I'm writing this).

@chau unfortunately it's a bit too late

[ZeroFang]

It was an example. I picked you two because you're posts were right above the quick post box.

[ZeroFang]

Prod received.

Could someone explain to me the case on Octo? I know he doesn't post much, but when he does usually it's a considerable addition to the game and it's progression. I really don't see what you guys find scummy about him.

[ZeroFang]

I have a large post in the process of being written, but I fear the time it will take me to write it will surpass the prod's welcome invitation to post.

[ZeroFang]

[/life]
And while I apologize, that really doesn't do anything. You guys deserve several large posts from me.

I've been reading the thread a lot, but there seems to be a general lack of content with which to base my vote on. I'm having extreme difficulty finding more than meaningless banter in between the votes themselves. With that in mind I took a look at the vote count.

Ythan, ZeroFang, CSL, Octupis, chauchaudotcom, AKnottedRope, and Xite91 all voted for Don, which narrows the suspect list to seven. Yes, I'm assuming the scum voted for the easy wagon. For a town aligned player on the list such as myself, this narrows it down to six players. Let's take a look at them.

Ythan

Almost exclusively quotes/one liners. The vast majority of his content day 1 was a petty argument with Don, with little to no content today. I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to scumminess and how much to attribute to playstyle. I have hardly anything to work with here, and mystery is dangerous in this game. I'd be tempted to vote him because his scum/town status is just so questionable.

ZeroFang

There's no way I can be objective about myself, and anything I would write would be misconstrued.

CSL

He had absolutely no reason to ISO Don, didn't explain himself (not even so much as an "I agree" until later when it was implied), and now when he has a

minimum

of 74 hours to post something of worth, he declares that he'll re-read if he survives the night (which, considering how scummy most people consider him to be, is likely). I dislike lurker lynches because I understand how life can easily get in the way, but seriously, I am not liking CSL right now.

Octupis

His posts generally seem pro-town, and he appears to be using logic to deduce who is and isn't scum. Though I often agree with his reasoning, there are many instances in which his posts urk me, such as this one where he half answers, or when he says "Ythan's play was good for the town" despite him hardly contributing.

chauchaudotcom/Xite

Both aggressive, but in a townie way. They have made pretty substantial posts throughout, and are carrying this game.

AKnottedRope

I think I'll wait until he comes back from V/LA to comment.

[ZeroFang]

Are you assuming that all of the scum jumped on the Don wagon here?

No, that would be foolish of me. I'd say there's probably two in there somewhere.

So then, who, Zero, is scum? You've either excused everyone, refused to comment, or said they are townie. Also, why assume that scum is on/driving the wagon? Is there a purpose?

We barely had a majority on the Don wagon, and many of us commented on how scummy he looked. Thinking from a scum perspective, they could easily hide in that crowd and get an easy lynch.

As for who's scum, I honestly have no idea. My top three guesses would be CSL, chau, and you, with no particular case in the lead. They're all based on gut feelings, hence no conclusive thoughts on who's scum. With all the people being replaced, I hope to hear more out of those slots.

This starts out as acceptable if misguided, as anyone who has played a game will tell you that one-liners are, apart from not being scummy or anti-town in any way, my style. It gets suspicious when you suggest that you could vote me based on a lack of information.

All the one liners could easily be construed as active lurking. Active lurking is a scum tactic and yields no useful information, so yes, it is anti-town and scummy. I think lack of information can be a full blown case against someone if it's the only thing we can go by (which is not the case here).

When I said I was tempted to vote you, that was mostly for pressure, and it worked. You posted quite a bit.

After this your suspicions against CSL seem primarily to be a lurker policy lynch. No better than your reasoning against me.

Not lurker policy lynch. No, my suspicion of CSL stems from a multitude of things which include his seemingly random ISO of Don, lack of posts/content throughout the game, and his declaration to lurk until the next night has passed. I even said in that post that I dislike lurker lynches.

[ZeroFang]

I'm answering posts point by point. I'm aware this post isn't answering everything, but I've been asked for a lot of responces. I'm tackling them one at a time now. I was going to make one wall post but the power blipped and I lost everything. I don't have lots of time all at once to make another, so I'm just splitting it up.

As for who's scum, I honestly have no idea.

They're all based on gut feelings, hence no conclusive thoughts on who's scum.

When I said I was tempted to vote you, that was mostly for pressure, and it worked. You posted quite a bit.

I'm starting to like zero as scum more and more. This kind of fence-sitting behavior is scummy.

I thought it had been made clear that hardly anything has actually happened. The first part you quoted me on reflects this. The second further clarifies. The third one is completely unrelated, so I don't understand how it's applicable. Considering the circumstances, I don't think this qualifies as fence sitting.

AKnottedRope
I think I'll wait until he comes back from V/LA to comment.

Well I've been back for a while, care to comment?

Ironic considering that your case has hardly anything to comment on. Literally half your posts are notes to the mod and fluff, and the other half doesn't say anything of significance to the game. If anyone would understand why we don't have material to work with, it should be you.

[ZeroFang]

I don't believe Don was advocating or suggesting that Lowell be lynched for being an easy target. I believe he simply said that Lowell was one. Furthermore, if he was advocating it - why wouldn't he switch his vote to Lowell; instead of keeping it on you?

He was suggesting that we keep him in the game so that we could get an easy lynch. He didn't switch his vote to Lowell because at the time he believed I was scum and Lowell was an easy lynch for later. The wording on that was weird, but that's what I was trying to get across.

@Zero. How are Chau and Xite carrying this game, and have 'made pretty substantial posts throughout'? Especially given that I believe Xite was on V/LA at least once, thinking twice.

If you look at Xite's ISO and her activity throughout the game, you'll see that nearly every post had content and was relevant to the topic at the time or relevant to scumhunting in general. She called many people out on scummy actions, and still has made a strong impact in this game despite a couple V/LAs.

cha-cha's done relatively the same. Mostly content posts, lots of them, a lot of scum-hunting, and has had a significant influence on the game because of it.

If you want to know why I said they're "carrying" this game, it's because they've made the most relavent, impacting posts. Not to discredit the rest of us, it's just that cha-cha and Xite have done the most.

Why do you think there are 'probably two' on the Don wagon?

Look at the way Don presented himself. He really, really looked scummy. The scum, knowing he was a VT, likely saw this as a perfect opportunity to get a lynch and a distraction to the town. Not everyone was against Don, so I'm pretty sure some scum had to vote him to get him lynched. I know some scum players purposefully don't hop on the main wagon to avoid being outted like this, so I'm factoring that in. All of the above in mind, I figure there were probably two scum on that wagon, and one scum that was gone at the time, lurking, or voting nobody/someone else to confuse us.

[ZeroFang]

Zero is neutral, I can't get a read on him.

Should I feel accomplished or ashamed?

AKR: I notice you're almost exclusively focusing on Ythan and Octupis. Your wonderful example link doesn't show Octupis defending CSL any more than it does other lurkers (smash and me), so I really don't see how he defended CSL as fiercely as you claim. While I do believe this might be a legitimate town effort to lynch scum, I can't deny how odd it is. Also odd: how Lowell the lurker is your sheep.

@Lowell is there a reason you're blindly following AKR with nothing more than "I agree"/weak posts? This seems like you and AKR are buddying scum trying to get a quick lynch in before the town knows what's going on.

On the mason thing: We should wait until lylo or close to lylo. Otherwise, we get diminished use of him/her. I don't think it's reasonable to assume the scum will kill the remaining mason tomorrow, so we should at least wait that long. The closer we get to the end, the more useful confirmed townies become.

[ZeroFang]

How did

Zero

's defense of Oct make you switch to a Oct-

Lowell

judgement?

I second this. As it stands, it looks like a non sequitur.

My top scum team at the moment is Lowell-AKR-Sanxion, and that's based on the "alliance" they seem to have. I suspect Lowell a significant amount more due to lurking/"I agree" posts/buddying hard/this post in which he states CSL is town/ignoring questions.

Vote: Lowell

[ZeroFang]

I just realized, I'll probably get people wondering what alliance they have. I'll update with quotes later, but they generally agree on things and when they ask each other questions, it's usually lighthearted (no accusations).

[ZeroFang]

AKR beat me to the punch.

Tangent: You can't say it's nothing personal if that's exactly why you're voting him >.>

[ZeroFang]

It appears your scum radar is broken as there are only two scum left and you seem to have somehow found a four man scum team.

Three man scum team, and I know there's a townie in there. Going with gut, I'd say Sanxion is the townie in that group (though I still suspect him, so he stays).

So if I see no reason to accuse someone, I'm scum? Could it be they just haven't done anything I found scummy? (This doesn't necessarily apply for Lowell or AKR, I am speaking in general.)

No, if you generally agree with someone and only ask lighthearted questions of them, there's a possibility you're scum with that player. The point of that post was to point out potential buddying.

Zero, what do you think of Ythan? You haven't spoken about him much cept in the last post you made.

His post here is fairly scummy, telling us how scummy Lowell is without actually providing details or examples of such. However, there are many instances where he's shown his towniness though his quirky one liners (example, example, example, and read the top of this page where exposes CSL's mason hunting). My previous scum read on Ythan was misinformed, and part of it was his style which takes a bit of getting used to.

I still have yet to explain the Sanxion-AKR-Lowell alliance I was talking about. Damn, I'm lazy. Lowells at L-2 btw, so your vote would take him to L-1.

[ZeroFang]

Zero, your claim is that my post is scummy because I didn't provide examples of why Lowell is scummy in that post. Am I misinterpreting this in any way?

Nope

@Zero.
Are you sure you weren't 'misinformed on Ythan' because Lowell is one of the popular lynch candidates?

Wait, what? How does Lowell have anything to do with my assessment of Ythan?

No, I was misinformed on Ythan because I read him wrong the first time. He might be posting one liners, but they really do help the town. Besides that, I was responding to Sanxion's post requesting my thoughts on him. Lowell was only mentioned because his latest post was about him, and actually wasn't all that helpful.

@Ythan it would be helpful to explain why you think Lowell is scum, even if you think it's obvious, even if you think his case has already been thoroughly explained.

[ZeroFang]

I am the last

mason

. I tried to breadcrumb this a little and thought I might die last night for it, but whatever.

You've told us that breadcrumbs exist without providing any examples. Typically, they exist so you can refer to them later to back up your claim. You didn't, which makes your post sound like desperate scum.

Needless to say, I approve as well.

[ZeroFang]

There are four townies, one mason, and one scum for a total of six players. If we mislynch, that's five players going into night, the mason has a 3/4 chance of surviving. Assuming he survived, he could claim during lylo where we'd get much more use out of him.

I'd suggest we wait. The mason shouldn't claim today unless he's about to get lynched.

[ZeroFang]

*facepalm* right.

So the mason claims today.

[ZeroFang]

I'm not the mason for the record.

[ZeroFang]

ISO 1
States I'm town, and that chacha and don are scum

ISO 3
Big post, does a full evaluation
AKR is town
CSL is town (later flipped scum)
Smash bugs him (later replaced, to lazy to check who )
Octips is scummy for voting, then unvoting Lowell (who was scum), and for editing his posts a lot before he posts them
chacha.com is scum for being timid and overreacting

ISO 7
FoS's Xite
Tries to link chau to CSL if he flips scum (and he did)
Revotes chau

ISO 11
Votes Octipus, makes a big case on him
"I agree with knotted that this is the place to start." (may I reiterate the AKR connection here?)

By the way, this is all while AKR attacks Octipus. Just throwing that out there.

ISO 12 and ISO 13
Further attacks Octi, says I'm very scummy

And the rest are fluff, i.e. why we lynched him
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In my mind, his constant attacks on chau and Octi pretty much confirm them as town. His lack of attacks (and his agreeing with) AKR makes him the scummiest via connection to Lowell. They've both been really pushing for a Octi lynch. Infact, ISOing AKR reveals that he's been tunneling him since the game began.

Vote: AKR

[ZeroFang]

Crap, I forgot the mason thing.

At this point, the mason should just come right out and claim. There's no point in having us pop-corn claim as there's only one role to claim and the rest are going to claim townie anyway. I say the mason claims outright.

The mason has to claim today.

[reason]

No. Waiting until lylo will allow scum the chance to counter claim without our ability to check which claim is true which would be far worse for town. The mason should claim today to narrow our suspects down so that we can lynch scum today versus waiting until we're cornered in lylo.

Saving the claim for lylo is a mistake. All that will do is narrow down our lynch to the claimant and inevitable counterclaimant.

[/reason]

[ZeroFang]

Furthermore, the claimed 'buddying' to AKR is far too obvious for me to believe that it's legit scum buddying. Seems like Lowell was trying to fabricate connections in case he died.

Perhaps you need to ISO Lowell again. See exhibit A:

326 and 328 (followed by the other posts slightly leading towards other players) looks like derailment of the CSL wagon by chaud. If CSL is scum chaud almost certianly is, but the alternative is chaud is looking for a friend and maybe knows something about the wagon that others don't.

Here he tried to connect you to scum. He didn't do this by buddying, but he did this by saying if CSL was scum, that you were as well. The irony of it all was he actually connected himself quite closely with CSL, and that turned out to be the valid connection of the two. He did try and fabricate connections, but you can tell the real connections from the fabricated ones by looking at the way he connected the person to scum.

I would encourage you to read Lowell's ISO #3. Notice who his two top picks for town are. We know Lowell was scum. We know CSL was scum. He seemed to buddy with AKR in that very same manner. Nobody else really fits the bill.

Zero Analysis:

Fuck the hell yes! \m/

2 RVS votes, claiming "I felt bad cause I voted Ythan as my RV but then someone else voted him too. I'd feel weird if I just unvoted, so I voted someone based on something arbitrary, like the dead line." and "I noticed two other people voted him." (worrying about an rv wagon)

That's cute. As I recall, that was the main case agaisnt me when you, AKR, and Don all

Voted don for misread reasons, later on when he realized he misread he was still set on keeping his vote on don

I could try and backtrack and defend myself, but I really see no point. Yup. I put on a dunce cap and lead the town to jump off the "LYNCH THE MONKEY" cliff.

In reality, this was one of those awkward times when I had made a stupid case, backtracked, saw that there was a completly different case that was legitamate (this time), and kept my vote. Had I not origionally made a crap case on Don, I probably wouldn't have voted him at all.

Post 17 mason rolefishing

Not that it helps my case any, but that was a relatively idiotic post by me. I do think masons claiming a bit earier might have helped (it would have cleared Octipus, who was considered suspicious throughout the game), though at the time I was just being an arrogant noob.

Post 21 people commentary - Ythan scummy (kinda), CSL scummy, Oct town, Chau town, Xite town, AKR no comment

I couldn't get a read on AKR. He seemed scummy, but at the same time I couldn't quite put my finger on anything. I can now, as explained by my case on him.

Post 22 "As for who's scum, I honestly have no idea." ..fence sitting, then claims top scum are CSL, Chau and San based off 'gut'...contradicts post 21

It was based off of gut feeling, i.e. not on the evidence I had presented. Also, I was running around clueless as to who was scum and you all expected me to tell you who's scum (understandably, I might add). I ended up just posting my gut reads. The post before that, 21, was rushed. That's actually another reason I didn't comment on AKR the first time. I didn't have a case for or against, and I didn't really have time to ISO and make one.

Votes Lowell

Er... ok.

"Going with gut, I'd say Sanxion is the townie in that group (though I still suspect him, so he stays)." This comment bothered me...a lot

It bothers me too, actually. I don't even drink...

"I still have yet to explain the Sanxion-AKR-Lowell alliance I was talking about. Damn, I'm lazy. Lowells at L-2 btw, so your vote would take him to L-1." seems to be purposefully putting it off.

In my mini ISO of all three of them, it seemed like they generally didn't make cases against each other and instead tended to support each other. I don't know if the part I read was unique or I was just sleep deprived, but now I don't know what the hell I was thinking including Sanxion. It seems a bit out of place.

Oh, right. The putting it off part. That's mainly the way I post. I'm going to have to figure this out for myself, but I spend upwards of three hours on these wall posts. It's truly a daunting task, and I'm a bit of a procrastinator. Those two things don't mesh well. It's also why I get prods a lot. I'm paying attention, I'm reading the thread, and I'm keeping up to date, but my post is only halfway done or I haven't scheduled out a block of time for that post to be made yet.

Speaking of which, it's 4:45 in the morning and I have to get up early.

[ZeroFang]

Yo Dawg, I Heard You Like Error Ridden Vote Counts:

The Vote Count Your Vote Count Could Smell Like:

The Top O' The Mornin' Vote Count:

The One Of The Few Things You Can't Fix With Duck Tape Is A Vote Count:

The Best Thing Since Sliced Vote Count:

The Latest In Vote Count Technology:

This. This is why our mod is awesome. Thought I'd take a moment to point that out before I continue scum hunting.

[ZeroFang]

That post wasn't intended to contribute or scum hunt. I posted last page for that reason, and yes, I did make a case on AKR that nobody's bothered to refute.

I really don't see you doing too much yourself...

[ZeroFang]

That's cute. As I recall, that was the main case agaisnt me when you, AKR, and Don all

Huh? I think your sentence cut off.

Sorry. That's what happens when you nearly fall asleep posting and in your haste to post and get to sleep, you forget to proof read/fact check. I don't know exactly what I was trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure it was wrong.

Edit after preview: I remember now. I intended to say something along the lines of "It was RVS so it doesn't matter. It's ridiculous to say I'm scummy for that". I was going to start that off by saying that was the crap case against me at the beginning of the game. I'm not sure if the three of you actually were on it or not, and I was going to check to make sure I remembered correctly.

Which is exactly why it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Why would you go off gut feeling over the evidence you presented? That makes no sense. The reason I posted those two as a case against you wasn't because of your read on AKR. It was because of your inconsistency between 21 and your scum declarations. Your posts do not ring genuine in scum hunting

because

of the fact that you chose to use gut reads versus pursuing actual evidence.

It's not that I didn't pursue actual evidence. It's that I found none, and I had to post something.

Your defense actually makes me think you're even more scum.

*sigh* Alright, whatever.

[ZeroFang]

I'm not quite done with my case on AKR but I'm saving it in a notepad file to be worked on as soon as I get home tomorrow (around 1pm).

By the way, connections to scum can be a case by itself if both (or all three) players are involved. I understand you guys don't think AKR is scummy because Lowell went along with whatever he said, but AKR didn't exactly hop on CSL's wagon until it was pretty clear he was going to be lynched anyway.

[ZeroFang]

That was Octi, not AKR.

[ZeroFang]

Huh? What does Octi have to do with this?

Nothing. It was Octi who hopped on CSLs wagon at the last minute, not AKR. I was correcting myself.

[ZeroFang]

I'm probably a little biased on this first part, but I still think it's valid. AKR kept his RV because apparantly I hopped off a RV wagon I started. I don't really care if it's RV and still a valid part of the game. It was a bad reason to vote, and a bad case to get everyone to hop on. I see this as scum looking for an easy lynch. To be honest, I was suspecting chau a bit too for the same reason (though she's pretty cleared, I'll explain later in the post).

This post actually explains my thoughts pretty well, and I made my own post here explaining my thoughts on the matter. I noticed I didn't connect them nearly as thouroughly as I thought I had. I was under the impression that I made this post, which you are reading.

ISO 1
States I'm town, and that chacha and don are scum

Just remember, this is coming straight from the mouth of a flaming scum bag (pun intended). We can assume certain things to be true about his posts (for instance, he'll generally try to make the town look scummy and the scum look town). He further attacks chau. Let's continue.

ISO 3
Big post, does a full evaluation
AKR is town
CSL is town (later flipped scum)
Smash bugs him (later replaced, to lazy to check who )
Octips is scummy for voting, then unvoting Lowell (who was scum), and for editing his posts a lot before he posts them
chacha.com is scum for being timid and overreacting

Ok, so lets see what we can take from this post of his.

We know:
1) Lowell was scum
2) Lowell isn't exactly the best and brightest player out there
3) Lowell defended CSL, who later flipped scum
4) Lowell defended AKR

in the same way

he defended his other scum buddy
5) Lowell attacked Octipus who is our last mason (i.e. confirmed town)
6) Lowell also attacks chau in roughly the same way he attacked Octipus

-2 is a known fact about Lowell, at least according to Ythan and DJ. I don't really see any reason to doubt it.
-3 shows us that he was indeed willing to openly defend his scum partners, which leads me to believe that 4 shows a scummy relationship to AKR who he defended in the same manner. You might say that this is too obvious, but you forget about 2 which lends validity to this connection. (If you don't believe 2, just read on. You'll see)
-5 shows us that he openly attacked players who he knew weren't scum
-6 leads me to believe that chau is town because 5 is also true. I actually believed Octi was a mason long before he claimed. chau did as well. This further leads me to believe that the AKR/Lowell attacks on Oct were to get rid of the last mason without wasting an NK on him (this is a bit more out there. I'm not about to pretend this is conclusive). I have a strong suspicion that they believed they could get him lynched easy enough not to worry about killing him.

Now wait, this gets better.

ISO 7
FoS's Xite
Tries to link chau to CSL if he flips scum (and he did)
Revotes chau

Lowell knew that CSL would flip scum inevitably. He apparently believed that he could link chau to scum in this manner. If you needed proof for 2 in the section above, you have it. He also explicitly stated how much he didn't understand the case on CSL despite numerous explanations. More evidence for 2. No more of this "Well, Lowell wouldn't make anything THAT obvious" nonsense. He would, and did make things that obvious.

ISO 11
Votes Octipus, makes a big case on him
"I agree with knotted that this is the place to start." (may I reiterate the AKR connection here?)

By the way, this is all while AKR attacks Octipus. Just throwing that out there.

This is the recent and biggest connection between AKR and Octi. Oh, and lets forget how AKR didn't mention Lowell during most of the game, and let's ignore his subtle derailment of Lowell's case (Twice, this time insisting he's anti-town but not scum) and lets forget that he bussed CSL right out of RVS, much like a scum would do to try and eliminate connections to other scum buddies.

This is a far cry, but he tried to get me lynched early, and made This post stating Lowell and I were probably on the same team. Interestingly enough, if we had believed him and one of us had flipped, it would be golden for the scum. Lowell would be confirmed townie if I died, and I'd be confirmed scum if Lowell died. Either way, it would help the scum. I really can't see how his reasoning could be interpreted from a townie perspective.

I find it very scummy how the only cases he was millitant about have been against CSL (he seemed 100% sure CSL was scum. WAY too sure) and Octipus (confirmed town).

And really, at this point I'm convinced AKR is scum nearly enough to just say go ahead and lynch me so you know you can trust me. That's also why I'm not too terribly concerned with my defense. Scum hunting > defending yourself, always. If it's between AKR and I for the last scum, you can lynch us both. We have two votes to the end, and two main suspects. AKR has a strong case on his head, and you guys suspect me a great deal. At this rate I don't think anyone else has much of a chance at being lynched. If we mislynch me, and then lynch AKR, I'm pretty sure we'd still win. I'd like thoughts on this last paragraph at the very least, even if you somehow dismiss everything above it.

[ZeroFang]

This game is losing momentum.

It's marathon day, half the people aren't posting or are posting meaningless one liners, our main lynch candidate is being replaced and I post infrequently because I tend to wall it up.

[ZeroFang]

If this was true. Why didn't they kill oct last night? Exactly.

Because they could reasonably make Oct look suspicious enough to lynch? Your answer was in the quote. They aren't going to NK someone under suspicion, especially if townies like you already believe it.

That doesn't prove anything. That only proves he was willing to establish an obvious connection with ONE of his scum buddies. To establish another, not to mention the EXACT SAME connection with his other scum buddy makes no sense. Perhaps I'm giving the last scum too much credit but I'm thinking he's not a complete idiot.

This is

Lowell

we're talking about.

BTW, for all those passive-aggressively directing scumkills, my previous post was not a mason softclaim. If I claimed mason, you'd know it.

Well done, geniuses. I am the last

mason

. I tried to breadcrumb this a little and thought I might die last night for it, but whatever.

This is the guy who said he didn't softclaim stating that he's just come right out and say it, and THAN went on to say he breadcrumbed. For the record, he did this at L-1 leaving a likely mason candidate open to hammer him. Did I mention how Xite the mighty mason was one of his scum candidates? Not to be rude here, but I think you're giving Lowell entirely too much credit. Oh, and if that's not enough for you, maybe a quote from Lowell himself would suffice.

People need to stop playing like lowell.

Which goes against your whole argument about the ridiculously obvious buddying Lowell was doing with AKR.

AKR buddied with Lowell too. It wasn't a one way connection. Also, AKR was really, really sure CSL was scum if you recall. He brushed Lowell off as being anti-town, and not scummy. Both of those are common scum tactics (brushing off your partners scumminess, bussing your partner). It's funny to me how you think Lowell is smart enough not to connect both his scum partners in the same way, but AKR isn't. If I were AKR, I'd be fairly offended.

If we mislynch me, and then lynch AKR, I'm pretty sure we'd still win. I'd like thoughts on this last paragraph at the very least, even if you somehow dismiss everything above it

No. Because if you flip town (which I really don't think you will) I'd say Ythan would be the next best lynch.

*facepalm*

[ZeroFang]

However, it is too soon to say "if one isn't scum, then the other is."

Zero, without as much detail, please reanswer the first one.

So you're asking if I agree that if I flip town, than Ythan is scum? My death won't have any bearing on who's scum or not. The only reason I even offered is because one of the points against me is that I might be scum WIFOM-ing the town into lynching AKR. Since I'm not, and me dying would prove I was town scumhunting, I offered. I think your "If I flip town, Ythan is scum" conclusion is severely misguided. Chau, who originally said something that resembled that, only said that Ythan is her second guess for scum and she'd vote for him, and not AKR if I flipped town. Your insistence on this is fairly scummy.

Huh? What does Octi have to do with this?

Nothing. It was Octi who hopped on CSLs wagon at the last minute, not AKR. I was correcting myself.

Your right, but why did you need to mention this? This post is attacking AKR and Lowell, so if the mistake was unintentional, why did you need to mention my actions? It's not relevant, unless the mistake wasn't unintentional.

The only reason you came up is because you did what I thought AKR did. Other than that, no, it wasn't relevant. I could have said "someone else". Would that have been any better?

@Octipus You know that Lowell, CSL, and Sanxion all have the same general playing style, right? I'm not saying he's town or scum, I'm just letting you know so you can make a more informed case.

This is posted after, but written before Sanxion wall posted.

[ZeroFang]

I am still fairly confident [zero] or Ythan are scum by

following Chau's logic.

Post

Wow, that makes so much sense...

I'm convinced that Zero is probably is scum with Ythan as a back up.

Well put Chau because that's...just crystal...

I have made a mistake this game in that

I never really doubted Chau's likelihood of being town

.

He's never done anything I could find as flawed or anti-town or scummy

, so I decided to test it on the seemingly questionable idea he suggested.

Not only did he do an excellent job answering my question, but

he actually reasoned and proved that the odds of AKR being scum are almost non-existent.

And thus, you proved several things you may not have intended to prove.

1) You worship the ground chau sits upon
2) You're a parrot
3) You're woefully anti-town, dare I say scummy

I'm not about to say that the buddying is scummy, but your lack of content while wall posting is quite ridiculous. I don't think I've seen anyone post that damn much without making a single point of his own (unless you count those odd "Do you agree with this: Ythan is scum if Zero isn't" arguments).

You make me reconsider AKR as not scum. No, you didn't bring up any good points yourself. You're being terribly scummy.

[ZeroFang]

I'm getting the impression from you answer that you think that I think that Zero might be town, but that is not the case, I don't think Zero is town, yet I am not as sure that he is scum as everybody seems to be.

I was just pointing out other reasons I thought it may have been likely for scum to leave you alive because I thought you made it pretty obvious you were mason.

Didn't you just recently attack me for coming up with reasons the scum might have kept Oct alive despite his obv-mason read?

The biggest thing that bugs me about Sanxion is his tendency to buddy up with me. However, I still feel like he's town because that's just the impression I get from all his posts.

Don't get your panties up in a bunch. I know his posts are flattering, but that doesn't make them any less scummy. Please try to be objective.

In any case, it's the last day guys. =/ Can we lynch Zero now? I'd really prefer we don't screw ourselves over with a no lynch.

AKR's back. I'm guessing he'll do something along the lines of OMGUS and vote me.

Unfortunately chau, you've eliminated the possibility that I'm actually town in your mind so solidly that you've dismissed everything that my town flip might imply. AKR is undoubtedly going to vote me, so I might as well be dead already. The time to start thinking about the implications is right now, and I mean seriously think about them. Half your argument defending AKR was that you thought I was opportunistic scum. Now that you know I'm town, rethink my argument. It might just save this god forsaken town.

[ZeroFang]

I'm prepared to hammer zero after he posts again in response to my questions if no one objects.

Why puss out and wait till I comment if you already have your mind made up?

[ZeroFang]

I'm fine answering, I just don't see the point in waiting if AKR already made up his mind. It certainly isn't going to dissuade him from hammering, and Oct wants to know for sure I'm town before we (er, you guys) reach lylo.

I'm answering the questions as I type this out, and I never refused to answer them.

[ZeroFang]

Him not attacking me makes me scum?

Yes.

CSL didn't attack anyone but don, does that make everyone but don scum as well? No. As for him attacking Oct, I posted the case first. I'm thinking lowell saw an opportunity to push for a lynch and went for it.

Also, I have not been pushing for Oct's lynch since the game began! The first suspicion I voiced of him was the beginning of day 3. Huge misrep here.

Day one, your 7th post. Your next post, 17 minutes later.

I also have a separate post to make to show you just how blatantly obvious Octi's mason status was if you're looking for it. I picked up a hint of it day one, but I never consolidated it. Had I been mason hunting, I would have found out why.

I would encourage you to read Lowell's ISO #3. Notice who his two top picks for town are. We know Lowell was scum. We know CSL was scum. He seemed to buddy with AKR in that very same manner. Nobody else really fits the bill.

Nobody else fits the bill for scum? That's very much not true.

Nobody besides you and CSL had a town read from Lowell. If the slipper fits...

I couldn't get a

solid

read on AKR. He seemed scummy....

Edit by bold. Better?

In my mini ISO of all three of them, it seemed like they generally didn't make cases against each other and instead tended to support each other

That proves absolutely nothing.

Actually, yes it does. Scum know who other scum are, and in the interest of not getting each other offed, they tend to buddy each other (whether that be derailing cases on each other, saying each other are town, or simply avoiding making cases/making weak cases on each other).

I agree with mostly all of chau's 612.

If you

happen

to be scum, you're doing a damn good job.

Ok really, wtf is this? You're trying to make a case on me, but at the same time you seem not to have much confidence in it at all. You're also complementing me on my performance if I'm scum? Why the hell would you do that? I'd say getting everyone to suspect me is exactly the opposite of what a good scum performance is.

This post... it's as if you acknowledge that your case against me isn't very strong but are trying to get me lynched anyway. Do I even need to say it?
(

I'll tell you anyway: It's scummy

)

Meant to add this: Zero, why are you sure I'm going to vote you? You're at L-1, correct? There's no way I'd hammer without reading everything and discussing a lot.

Of course. I forgot to take in to account that you're trying really hard to look town. Instead of a simple "I'm actually not voting you yet" you chose to take the mafia highground. Pro-tip: 1-uping me doesn't make you look town. It makes you look like you're trying to get everyone to read you as such.

That was Octi, not AKR.

Here is a great example of why your case on me is crap.

Actually, this was a mistake on my part in a quick post meant avoid prod until the next day. I didn't research it, I recalled it from memory. I had a case that was half ready at the time and it would be too late if I waited to post until I completed it. For all intents and purposes, it's irrelevant.

1) Lowell was scum
2) Lowell isn't exactly the best and brightest player out there
3) Lowell defended CSL, who later flipped scum
4) Lowell defended AKR in the same way he defended his other scum buddy
5) Lowell attacked Octipus who is our last mason (i.e. confirmed town)
6) Lowell also attacks chau in roughly the same way he attacked Octipus

None of this is hard evidence. None of it pertains directly to anything I DID this game. So I ask you. What have I directly DONE that is scummy?

Lowell knew that CSL would flip scum inevitably. He apparently believed that he could link chau to scum in this manner. If you needed proof for 2 in the section above, you have it. He also explicitly stated how much he didn't understand the case on CSL despite numerous explanations. More evidence for 2. No more of this "Well, Lowell wouldn't make anything THAT obvious" nonsense. He would, and did make things that obvious.

Wait wait wait. So when lowell tries to link CSL to chau, he's trying to get chau lynched. Yet, when he links CSL to me, we're all scum buddies. Does not compute.

If you forget context and motive. He tried to link CSL to chau, a different member of the scum who was on the chopping block. I made the connection between you and CSL through Lowell's post. Lowell didn't make the link, he's the reason I made it. The first was clearly trying to throw chau under the same bus CSL was being thrown under. The second is an unintentional scummy connection.

This is the recent and biggest connection between AKR and Octi. Oh, and lets forget how AKR didn't mention Lowell during most of the game, and let's ignore his subtle derailment of Lowell's case (Twice, this time insisting he's anti-town but not scum)

"Oh yeah, if you ignore this, this, this, this, and this; AKR has completely ignored lowell." Right. (Also, I'm assuming you meant to say lowell when you typed octi. Otherwise, this point makes even less sense).

Awww you edited out the nice little links that linked to

exactly

what I was talking about. Nice strawman. May I haz match now?

Yes, I meant Lowell, not octi. I think everyone else understood.

and lets forget that he bussed CSL right out of RVS, much like a scum would do to try and eliminate connections to other scum buddies.

Wait, earlier you were calling me scum for hopping on the CSL wagon late, and now you're calling me scum for hopping on the CSL wagon early. You can't have it both ways.

The first was from memory in a quick post, the second was from reading over the thread again in my researched post.

This is a far cry, but [

post truncated to save room

]

Wow that's reaching. Like Mr. Fantastic reaching. Also, seeing as I think you're scum, my early prediction might come true. Might as well nominate me for a scummy now

I nominate AKR for "Most unlucky player", given to those who played a pretty good scum game but lost because his/her partner(s) sucked and exposed him/her.

I find it very scummy how the only cases he was millitant about have been against CSL (he seemed 100% sure CSL was scum. WAY too sure)

And really, at this point I'm convinced AKR is scum nearly enough to just say go ahead and lynch me so you know you can trust me.

You're really good at that contradicting yourself thing, aren't you?

And these quotes contradict each other because...

Also, how was I "too sure" that CSL was scum? I suspected him and voted him.

You were on his case with little evidence, and pushed for it militantly. He was scum. I don't think that's a coincidence.

That's also why I'm not too terribly concerned with my defense. Scum hunting > defending yourself, always.

AKR's back. I'm guessing he'll do something along the lines of OMGUS and vote me.

At the moment, I'm leaning on Zero being scum (and I swear, if you call it OMGUS, I'm going to deliver a swift kick to your gonads). Also, I don't like Ythan's lack of content so far, so he's still pinging my scumdar as well.

Weak, but not OMGUS.

[ZeroFang]

ZeroFang

- He answered for AKR early in the game which just struck a chord with me but what I did find suspicious is his suggestion that the

mason

s should claim on day two.

However, since Xscorpion flipped

mason

, would it be a good idea to encourage them to claim. Before you jump down my neck, let me explain my reasoning. In this post Xite hinted at the fact that he might be a

mason

so he is probably a target for the mafia at night (if he were to die he would leave one

mason

, rendering them useless because they can't prove their innocence and narrow down the potential scum). Because the scum got lucky last night in their killing of XScorpion it means there are only two

mason

s left which kinda suggests they should claim before another one dies and the other then becomes useless. I am relatively inexperienced at this game, but logic suggests that this is the best course of action in a situation that has now become difficult. I know that if one

mason

did remain they could possibly try and prove their innocence by softclaiming earlier in the game but it isn't very definitive and potentially susceptible to scum claiming to be

mason

s.

Xite91

(He flipped mason)

- Kinda alluded to the fact that he is possibly

mason

which was a fairly silly move in retrospect. Other than that, I would complain that he isn't as probing and as involved as other players.

ISO 10: First part not so much, but the second is again commenting strong opinions on how the masons do things.

As I said, my one reservation. I don't really know role-tells. I can't tell whether a player is acting like a particular role or not.

Have you considered that the same incident could well be interpreted as him trying to provoke one of the real

mason

s to claim? I see your point about him maybe trying to instigate a

mason

fakeclaim but I think it is a bit far fetched.

In regards to CSL's possible lynch, I think it is a good idea. Although he hasn't been very active (which is a disadvantage in a way because it means there are very few connections we can make if he flips scum), the stint of activity that he did indulge us in, could potentally be quite telling. The

mason

s are quite an important part of this game and from reading that page or so again, I somehow can't see him being a

mason

himself. Apart from that, there is the point that Sanxion raised about him asking to be kept on until Day 3, which I see as suspicious (because if he is scum it obviously helps him to keep a low profile today but it also heightens the chances of a town lynch). Lastly, his disregard for the game and his blatant unwillingness to post anything of merit (despite being around and reading the thread) leads me to think that he is scum.

Read this post. He seems a little too confident CSL isn't a mason.

Out? You fool, what would scum possibly gain from outing the last mason, now only useful in his ability to be

confirmed as town?

Bolded is why a mason is useful, especially later in the game. Like I said, lynch please.

I appreciate that a

mason

becomes more useful as there are fewer and fewer players in the game, but the chances of a

mason

surviving that long also decrease with every day and night. Considering on the only two nights we have had, there have been two

mason

deaths, don't you think the

mason

should claim now while he or she is still alive and actually useful? What do the rest of you think on this subject?

He's asking as if he's trying to get instruction, not as if he want's to know. Notice the difference in word choice and motive.

Quote the passage where I asked for the last

mason

to claim. I was asking others what they thought on the subject because I am uncertain as to the best approach. It seems now though that it is unaminiously thought that the

mason

claiming is a bad idea for whatever reason. That's fine. I am not advocating that the last

mason

should claim, I just want to know more about why AKR has said what he has said. His intolerane of actual discussion seems to be prohibiting it at the moment though.

I am tired of defending myself against bullshit. Read the thread before you post again. You said that the whole

mason

softclaim thing was a few pages too late. I asked you why, so you replied with a confusing answer, so I asked you again. I didn't mention anything about Xite and I haven't focused on Xite any more than I have the rest of you. If it is not too much trouble, would you mind explaining what you meant when I asked you those questions. This is what I'm talking about if you choose to ignore me again: post 317 and post 364

TL;DR: If you were mason hunting, it's clear he was one. AKR was one of the main people on Oct's case. So was Lowell.

My theory that nobody cares about: AKR, AKA the brains of the operation, noticed in mason hunting that Oct was a mason. He then proceeded to try and get him lynched by making a case on him. Knowing that his case got enough attention to possibly make a lynch, he saw no reason to waste his NK on him.

Please note how AKR dismisses Lowell's case here, in the link that he

removed

when quoting me. Note also in that link that he says

Also, using connections with me and a living player proves nothing. If lowell flips scum, then sue me.

in a clear attempt to distance himself from scum. Why would he need to do this if he was so sure Lowell wasn't scum?

Here is the second link to the same sort of phenomenon.

[ZeroFang]

Also, the Zero case is nowhere, and pointless. He's town. More later when I reread. It's now bookmarked, so I won't lose it again.

He called you town. By your reasoning, that makes you scum, right?

It's not in the same context, and he repealed it later. Watch this.

Zero is making a scum-comeback. I'm nowhere near as sold on his towniness as I was first read through. I'm beginning to see what the fuss was about, though I still think he might just have a scummy playstyle.

zero's 517 very much makes the zero-as-scum possibility very high in my mind. He jumps on what turned out to be a misspeak by someone else to vote me, even while deriding the logic behind it (and yes, I'm aware you're voting me for different reasons, but the timing doesn't look like coincidence. me being wrong about CSL isn't a case, it's opportunism). I think zero-as-scum fits very well with CSLs self-hammer, in hindsight. Zero hadn't voted, and CSL may have seen the lynch coming and not wanted to put his scumbuddy in the position of having to explain why he wasn't voting him.

fos zero

542 is right on. Zero's posts get worse and worse. It's like he's just waiting for me to by lynched so he doesn't have to do anything.

He was pushing my lynch just a few posts after that. He never questioned your towniness.

(post)

ISO 10: First part not so much, but the second is again commenting strong opinions on how the masons do things.

(post v2)

Read this post. He seems a little too confident CSL isn't a mason.

(post v3)

These quotes just show octupis slightly breadcrumbing mason. The fact that you found these hints and pointed them out proves that you've been trying to identify the masons all game.

No, it proves that I know what I'm talking about when I say Oct was mason

if you were hunting for it.

You made the case on him. Why the hell would I not NK him because of your case on him when I was derailing it?

I use Firefox. Here's what I did to do that. I did CTRL+F to find the word "mason" and then clicked highlight all. That highlighted every time the word "mason" was used in his posts. Than, I painstakingly copied and pasted the bold/size tags.

Given that you were the only one who said the mason should NOT claim today, it makes sense that you are scum.

Given that I thought oct was town and never accused him once, it makes no sense that I'd keep him alive thinking I could get him lynched. I never once accused him, and you can't reasonably rely on someone else to continue making a case on the last mason. If I were scum, oct would have been dead night one.

[ZeroFang]

I'm fine answering, I just don't see the point in waiting if AKR already made up his mind.

If you were town, you would see the point.

Now that you mention it, I really do see the point. Proving how BS your case against me is and proving that Oct was obv-mason if you were looking for it gets us closer to lynching scum, ESPECIALLY after I flip town and clear every word I said as coming from a vanilla townie. Yup, you're right. Just not in the way you intended.

[ZeroFang]

ZeroFang, Vanilla Townie, Lynched day 4

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

[ZeroFang]

Would you like it if I hammered or would you prefer to wait till Sanxion or Oct does it?

[ZeroFang]

I actually thought he hammered me until I checked.

Regardless,

Vote: ZeroFang

[ZeroFang]

Effing. If Zero isn't scum I'm sad. Because I can't figure out for the life of me why someone would leave Oct alive. =/

Who made the biggest case on Oct?

[ZeroFang]

I really hope this is the end of the game and zero is just effing with us.

You know very well it isn't. The desperation and false surprise in your posts are very revealing. Just stop posting. You're revealing yourself even worse that way.

[ZeroFang]

This is your first modded game? Congrats!

You were really good

[ZeroFang]

I think this is the game that I should have learned the most from, but I'm not sure I really learned anything except that I'm a terrible scummer.

/rant about Lowell and AKR