Mini 973: "Bawhston" Brawl (WHAT A WIN!)

[InflatablePie]

Hello guys, sorry I'm late to the party. Hello Jacob and Nik, I believe we've played before?

Vote: JacobSavage

at least until he catches up.

Not liking havingfitz for doing the same thing Oso did - unvoting because we're "out of RVS". I think Hoopla pointed this out first.

Actually, you know what.

Unvote, Vote: havingfitz

- gogo bandwagon.

I'm still keeping an eye on you though, Jacob.

PGO claim is a nulltell. Could be a variety of things - town wanting to save the town PRs from death or to WIFOM the scum, OR, scum scaring off town PRs or throwing themselves in the open so their partner can slip by unnoticed.

More later, hopefully.

[InflatablePie]

InflatablePie, if you dislike fitz for doing something Oso also did one could infer that you also dislike Oso. Would you please give a clear statement on your like/dislike of Oso at the moment.

Certainly. Although I dislike the fact that Oso is not using his vote to his full potential, he gave a better reason for why he took it off - his playstyle. In addition, his last two posts seem to have good content. I don't have a full-on townread yet, but he is certainly looking better than fitz.

havingfitz, meanwhile, just jumps on the Hoopla wagon after gaining some votes with no further explanation to his unvote. This was also after Hoopla voted fitz - countervoting always twitches my scumdar a bit.

By the way Nikanor, I am taking crack, yet I am not voting Hoopla. Please do not blame the crack. It hasn't done anything wrong.

[InflatablePie]

In addition, fitz's unvoting for the same reason as Oso can also be seen as him trying to blend in with what others are doing, kind of supported by his BW vote of Hoopla.

[InflatablePie]

q21: Which do you find more "scummy"? Hoopla's reasonless vote of fitz or fitz's countervote of Hoopla?

Other people can answer this, too.

[InflatablePie]

My comments are in bolded dark red.

havingfitz, meanwhile, just jumps on the Hoopla wagon after gaining some votes with no further explanation to his unvote. This was also after Hoopla voted fitz - countervoting always twitches my scumdar a bit.

What does 'just jumps....after gaining some votes' mean?

It means that after you began to gain some votes, you just jumped on the Hoopla wagon.

I gave my reasoning with my vote and the fact it came after Hoopla's vote on me (with no reason whatsoever....what does that do to your scumdar?

Mentioned it in 65 but forgot to expand - Votes like that always seem a bit off to me. It didn't affect me much because I buy the PGO claim at the moment. In addition, I inferred that she was voting because of your "out of RVS" unvote.

) can't be helped. I was not going to refrain from a Hoopla vote just because she had placed one on me...which BTW came after I had expressed the opinion her claim was more beneficial to scum than town.

Really? In 40, you seemed to be kind of undecided. Why not vote for Hoopla in that post, then, instead of waiting?

I tend to not take anything at face value in mafia unless it can be proven somehow. As I've mentioned...I have not played a game with a PGO before and after further consideration I am not prepared to to accept a claim that can not be confirmed and provides such an umbrella of protection. I don't know when the best time to claim PGO is but to come out so early in the game seems off to me.

@ all - Do most PGO's claim immediately? Is it standard practice?

In addition, fitz's unvoting for the same reason as Oso can also be seen as him trying to blend in with what others are doing, kind of supported by his BW vote of Hoopla.

The same could be said for your (and nikanor's) criticisms and votes on me. I.e. your point is worthless.

My vote, maybe. I admit it was a bit BW-ish. But it doesn't mean I have no reason for keeping a vote on you at this time.

Will try to read Oso's semi-wall back there later on tonight.

[InflatablePie]

Argh, this is why I need to preview before using a bunch of tags.

I think you guys get what parts are me and what parts are his, though.

Fixed, I hope. ~yabb

[InflatablePie]

Thanks for fixing my tags, Mod. ^_^

Oso: so what you're saying in your big post on P3 is basically: one of havingfitz or RH is most likely scum - if one flips scum than the other is town?

Your logic seems sound, so I can go with an RH vote. First, I'd like fitz to at least answer the question at the end of the first paragraph in 82. Then I'll decide whether I'll change my vote or not.

@Gwyn: I can somewhat agree, but we

are

only roughly two days and four pages in to D1. Give him some time. I don't particularly like people pressuring lurkers very early on, so I shall point a pinky of suspicion at you, sir.

[InflatablePie]

And I get ninja'd by a wall.

[InflatablePie]

InflatablePie...in post 40 I was undecided....which is

why

I didn't place a vote.

Yes, but in 40 you also said that the claim was more beneficial to scum. And you only voted after Hoopla voted you...

@Gwyn: Ooh, did I touch a nerve? Neat.

[InflatablePie]

So... I

did

touch a nerve?

Will try and have a post with actual content later tonight, when I get off work.

[InflatablePie]

Oso, so if fitz flips scum than RH could be his partner, but if RH flips scum then fitz would become less scummy? Still a bit confused.

Nikanor - this looks awfully wishy-washy, if that's the right word. "I like Oso's post, OH BUT I DON'T THINK RH IS SCUM NO SIR". Seems a bit of a pre-emptive defense? Eh, other than this, nothing else has caught my eye on Nik.

Gwyn - don't have much of a read, but keeping an eye on him for reasons stated earlier.

q21 - His posts come across awfully... formal. I get weird vibes as a result. Nothing else of note.

Furry - seems to be mostly tunneling on fitz with a few other minor questions thrown here and there.

Slepz - this is more of a note to self, but if fitz turns out to be scum, this post sounds like he's speaking for fitz. I don't like that.

Reckoner is posting mostly fluff. I don't mind joking around, but his only content posts seem to be this and this. The other 11 or so posts of his are quick one-sentence comments, or jokes.

Hoopla is most likely town, cannot get a read on Jacob yet, and I've given my stance on fitz.

Unvote
Vote: Slepz

Actually, I don't want to wait to see a fitz flip. Reckoner also has a nice observation in one of his two content posts that I agree with.

[InflatablePie]

Hey look I forgot RH

A quick ISO shows that, yes, he says his knee-jerk reaction was a bad vote but LEAVES HIS VOTE ON HOOPLA.

Well, I could forget about Slepz for now, then.

Unvote

Vote: Radical Hijinx

[InflatablePie]

q21 - His posts come across awfully... formal. I get weird vibes as a result. Nothing else of note.

So... what does this mean?

Exactly what it says on the tin.

In other words, I don't know how to expand on this.

Slepz - this is more of a note to self, but if fitz turns out to be scum, this post sounds like he's speaking for fitz. I don't like that.

So Slepz scum = fitz scum?

Eh, not necessarily. If fitz flips scum, then Slepz will be my next choice for a lynch. If Slepz flips scum, my fitz read won't change. It's the buddying-up-to-fitz part (by speaking for him) that bugs me, which would be amplified if fitz flips scum.

Actually, I don't want to wait to see a fitz flip. Reckoner also has a nice observation in one of his two content posts that I agree with.

So has your fitz read changed?

Slightly. He's not pro-town, but I think my read could have been a bit off. He gave an okay defense and we have bigger fish to fry for now, in my eyes.

Also you abandon the slepz vote fast. I dont follow your logic at all. Fitz is scum with slepz, but you would rather lynch slepz even though for some reason fitz scum strengthens slepz scum... then you vote RH?

Yeah, my brain does that sometimes. But like I said above, Slepz can be scum and fitz town. Right now, RH > Slepz > fitz in terms of good lynches right now.

[InflatablePie]

@IP - Please dont do that color response thing. That is one of my biggest pet peeves in this game. You more tags doing color, /color than quote /quote either way.

Apologies. I'll simply quote in the future.

And Oso, thanks for clearing things up for me. I think I get it now.

[InflatablePie]

I come in, catch up and I'm about to post that fitz IS calling for a policy lynch despite what he calls it... and everyone and their mother beats me to it.

Jacob, are you actually going to post content or what?

No, it's because although I think Oso is town from his analysis, I think that his vote is on town. Like, you know that feeling where you just know that it's two townies going at it in a big argument? That's how I feel about them. That Oso and RH are both town.

Inflataman? <_<

I get what you're saying, it just seemed odd to throw in a comment on RH when I was reading over it. In addition, I disagree with the feeling that RH is town for now. Why do you think he's town again?

[InflatablePie]

... That was odd.

Anyways, Nik (do you mind if I call you Nik?), I don't "object" to your read - I just think you're wrong.

[InflatablePie]

RH's isos 1 and 2 come across as town-like enough for me to stop reading him in iso, and I think that's enough.

The point remains that RH admitted he was too quick in calling for a policy lynch, essentially saying a policy lynch is a bad idea... but leaves his vote. Then his replacement does sort of the opposite: says he doesn't like the PGO claim yet takes the Hoopla vote off.

I like my vote where it is. Awaiting further posts from The Buttonmen.

[InflatablePie]

Nik asking certain people to switch their vote is a bit odd. Makes me sad that I didn't get an invitation either. I feel like that weirdo kid in high school that's really quiet and no one likes him or talks to him and he doesn't get a heads-up on the parties going on even though he wouldn't really mind going... which I was, but that's not the point.

Gwyn switching over so easily also seems off, especially because of the weird reason he was voting for Slepz in the first place...

[InflatablePie]

TheButtonmen, I appreciate the offer. However, saying things like that without any good reasoning is not a good persuasion tactic... especially not to those that are voting you in the first place. I think I'll pass.

[InflatablePie]

To be fair, I don't recall JS saying Slepz was town. The only relevant/useful game content post he's made so far is the one with 5 scum reads in it. Except for 202, where he goes and says Slepz might be neutral/weak town. Ehh.

I really can't tell if Jacob is scum or just a VI right now. Vote's not moving just yet.


Nik asking Jacob in the first place to switch over doesn't gain him townie points, but doesn't quite make him look scummy either. It'd be a stupid thing for scum to say outright... which then leads into WIFOM and blah blah blah you get it.

[InflatablePie]

The only relevant/useful game content post he's made so far is the one with 5 scum reads in it.

I meant to tack on "... and it doesn't have Slepz on it".

[InflatablePie]

...

Furry makes a good case. Oso and q21, I'll have to jump off this wagon for the moment.

Unvote, Vote: JacobSavage

[InflatablePie]

JS: So rather than lynch someone you "know"/think is scum and building a case, you're going along with a wagon that has TWO of your scum reads on it.

[InflatablePie]

Unvote

Not lynching a provable. Everyone keep in mind there could be an SK though.

Jacob, do you have any restrictions? Even or Odd Night, limited shots, etc.?

Vote: TheButtonmen

Gonna be back here again.

[InflatablePie]

Are you willing to turn your power over to the town vote (we make a vig vote and then a lynch vote, get a twofor based on popular consensus)

I really like this idea.

[InflatablePie]

Swing and a miss, q21.

I don't think he should be lynched. Even if he IS an SK, I think we should keep Jacob on a leash just in case. If he doesn't comply, then we lynch him up. Simple. Or if his kill flavor is stab or something.

By the way, unless someone hammers him here, I'm fine with RH/Slepz - lynch one, shoot the other.

[InflatablePie]

*The Buttonmen

I forget he replaced out.

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...

Oso got ninja'd hard by Hoopla herself.

And that hammer looks scummy as all hell - almost 10 minutes after Nik asks that question.

[InflatablePie]

I say if Jacob flips Vig, we could consider a Hoopla lynch?

She said it herself, what are the odds of an unlimited vig AND a PGO?

[InflatablePie]

*awkward silence*

That was on purpose, wasn't it.

[InflatablePie]

My only experience with any PGO-like role is a role called "Granny" on EpicMafia.

So mine's about as good as yours, tbh.

[InflatablePie]

Two+ kills a night (Vig + mafia/SK/etc) + Paranoid Gun Owner = chaos for a Mini Normal. I'm fairly certain that either Jacob or Hoopla is lying (leaning towards Jacob if I had to pick one), so I don't object to Jacob shooting Hoopla. I think most everyone can agree with this?

q21, if Jacob is either SK Mafia or Vig, we still win from letting him shoot Hoopla tonight. If he's the first two, we get rid of an anti-town role, although at the expense of a PGO. If he's the vig, chances are Hoopla is anti-town and thus will die via vig shot.

The only thing that would be bad is if both of them are town, which I kind of doubt due to what I said above. We should lynch someone else today, otherwise we waste what I think is a good chance at a scumdeath tonight.

[InflatablePie]

@Hoopla: So you were asking a loaded question? Or whatever the term is for that. I guess I didn't think about that situation that in-depth, though.

fitz's 275 kinda flipflops for a bit, as well as misrepping Hoopla. I don't like it too much.

Welcome, dsister. What time zone are you in, so we know what you mean by night?


As for which of the two to lynch today, Hoopla has acted more pro-town than Jacob. Most of us can agree on this. Even though Hoopla is almost unconfirmable iirc, and we have a possible NK with Jacob. So I can understand both sides of the coin here - one is better to keep alive due to better playing skills and a more protown vibe (Hoopla), but one of them is a better role to have if he is telling the truth (Jacob).

But I said earlier that I don't want to lynch a provable and I still stand by it. Tomorrow is another story, depending what happens overnight and whatnot. If Jacob does survive the noose today and shoots, I don't think he should announce his shot now. Let me explain why.


Assume Jacob is town. If scum have a role to counter unlimited vig - let's say roleblocker, as it is the most common - this gives them a choice of wasting it on Jacob in case he shoots one of them or risking using a random roleblock on another player if they think he'll shoot town. The latter is worse, as scum not only risk dying, but don't know for sure if they're roleblocking another PR.

If they kill Jacob and he flips town vig, then everyone knows we'll probably go after Hoopla (who would probably be scum), so that would be a dumb move. If there is no vig-counter, then we leave our extra kill in the hands of Jacob and scum is helpless. If scum have something else to counter the vig, like a redirector or bus driver, then we're pretty much screwed anyway, no? If we don't have any investigative roles, then the vig kill becomes even more important, imo.

Now, if Jacob is the SK, scum don't benefit much from killing him or roleblocking him. If he shoots a player that most people think is town, we can infer he is more likely to be an SK. So he'd have to shoot scummy players, which ups the chance of us hitting scum. Plus he can still take a shot or roleblock during the night, which we still benefit from.

If Jacob is scum, this theory kind of goes out the window. But I have a feeling Jacob is either town or SK since I don't see scum claiming unlimited vig.


tl;dr: Jacob might absorb a roleblock for any possible investigative roles or take a bullet and we have an idea who to lynch next. Either one is an okay option whether he is town or SK. I think we should leave him alive for now.


I think I have covered all the bases; let me know if I need to elaborate.

[InflatablePie]

We can prove his role in one way or another. In this case, Jacob can be tied to a kill.

I guess it's only semi-provable outside of kill flavor since he could be an SK.

[InflatablePie]

I guess you guys are right... you've convinced me. My theory rides on the premise that he isn't scum because it's an odd scumclaim (and the premise that that scum have a blocker).

But I guess his flip will give us an idea of where to go next. The rest of this day will most likely be bickering between myself/others and Furry/Hoopla/etc.. about proving Jacob anyways. I think we're reaching the point where discussion will be going in circles and apparently we're "delaying the inevitable".

I guess I'll hammer. Sorry Furry, looks like you're not getting any SK claim, but I feel that this is the right move.

Unvote, Vote: JacobSavage

If he flips town, I say Hoopla should go next. If he flips scum, possibly look at fitz, although I have to think that one over.

[InflatablePie]

That's why I was saying he's most likely an SK over mafia, Hoopla. Scum usually claim something like cop or doc, or variations of it if they claim power.

Plus, there's most likely a 50% chance of an anti-town lynch available right now, as previously discussed. Hoopla seems to be the more pro-town player, even with the minor suspicion I got before that fakehammer.

This lynch also saves us another lynch+claim, which is nice. Too many wagons can result in mafia narrowing down power, which is bad.

I can agree with Furry's reads. The reason I want to look at fitz is because of his flip-floppy post where he switches off the first Jacobwagon (where he was second) and on to Button.

[InflatablePie]

@Nikanor: I wonder who said that quote in your sig... >_>


@TBM: On the other hand, though, it's an easy cop-out for scum to use. Combined with the fact that Vig does make a good fakeclaim for SK, well...

I feel comfortable replacing my vote.

Vote: The Buttonmen

(L-2?)

I'm still confused by what fitz is going on about, though. o_O

As for Gwyn (since Hoopla mentioned him), the only major thing I recall is getting on his nerves early on. Other than that, he's been a neutral read for me. I don't really get anything from his posts.

I'm liking Hoopla's reasoning. Awaiting these comments on other players.

[InflatablePie]

Still, IP went from not wanting to lynch JS due to his proveable claim (wanted TBM instead). Next was "vote to control the vig kill" something scum would love to see happen.

I don't see how this benefits scum. It's essentially getting us another lynch, thus narrowing down suspects. Explain/elaborate?

His iso 25 might actually be a scumslip. At this point he has entirely discounted the chance that JS is mafia, its either SK or vig. Logically, claiming vig as SK is a poor move, as scum its a bad move, but better. This comes from SK having to kill as a vig would, as scum can continually claim being RBed and not lose a factional kill.

I have never seen mafia claim Vig. I've seen a few SKs claim vig, though. So I guess I'm kind of biased towards that. Couldn't an SK also claim roleblocked, barring them being forced to kill?

After the fakehammer he immediately treats it as a mislynch (another sign he is scum) and tries to set the Hoopla lynch up for the hammer and the claim. He then goes into the JS shoot Hoopla idea, which again as scum is ideal for them, and gives credit to non-IP/Hoopla arguement.

I treated it as a mislynch because of how fast Hoopla "ended the day". I became very suspicious of her for that, until I realized it was a fake hammer. It would make sense for Hoopla-scum to hammer a claimed vig so quickly and that's the first thing I thought when the hammer occured.

Next idea is almost worst, he says lynch neither, and let scum RB JS. That would leave us with where we were yesterday, regardless of what JS was (if he is SK he is going to not kill and claim RBed) if he is town, it would do massive damage, especially with Hoopla town.

I was considering all options. If Jacob was SK (which he was) or vig, he could act as a roleblock absorber/scum shooter/what have you. Then you and Hoopla convinced me that Jacob should still be lynched because there was no way to prove him, so I decided to throw those ideas away.

You also mention the SK could not-kill and claim RBed if able. See my question above.

[InflatablePie]

Scum first get a chance to manipulate kill location. Secondly, scum know what PRs they should use. If they have a RBer, they know if they should block the vig or not. If they have a doctor, they know who to target, the more information scum have the better they can counter.

Okay, I get what you're saying now. I was in a Large game recently (with Jacob, no less - and I think Nik) that put the SK on a leash, so I thought that was kind of common and/or a good idea.

Well... SK claiming vig is suicide outside of game being almost immediately winnable. Also claiming RBed stops them from killing (due to multi-kill rule). This takes away the only thing SK has going for them.

I suppose you're right.

Why would scum-hoopla kill the player that looked like they were going to be lynched?

Vig is a very strong role for town (regardless if Jacob was one or not), and there was discussion starting about Jacob shooting Hoopla. Then Hoopla "hammers" That's not suspicious at all?

I was considering all options. If Jacob was SK (which he was) or vig, he could act as a roleblock absorber/scum shooter/what have you. Then you and Hoopla convinced me that

Jacob should still be lynched because there was no way to prove him

, so I decided to throw those ideas away.

Ok that is my problem, the bolded. You made your choice on him being proveable, thats what doesnt make sense.

I thought there was a way to prove him, yes. Then you and Hoopla came in and said this is impossible/improbable. I saw that you guys were right and decided to hammer. There was also a case that we were delaying the inevitable, iirc - that affected my change of heart as well.

---

q21 makes a solid case on Nik, however I'd like to add that his Nik/TBM theory would only apply if TBM is scum, no? If Nik is scum, then it doesn't show much off of TBM, I don't think.

[InflatablePie]

*raises eyebrows at Hoopla*

Well, this is certainly a change of attitude (understatement?)...

[InflatablePie]

Haven't posted in a bit due to lack of sleep and not wanting to post when tired. Just popping in before work.

Don't really see Nikscum right now. I've seen townies pull the same "if he gets to L-1 I'll hammer" thing in the past, iirc. Not to mention I thought it was a joke due to the smiley. <_<

MS is iffy - Gwyn has a point, those votes seem to irk him a bit if he's getting that hung up on them.

Still like my vote.

Wonder if Hoopla's done being crazy.

[InflatablePie]

V/LA until Monday

due to work. It turns out I'm working three double shifts in a row, so I'll be mostly working or sleeping. Which means little/no time for mafia.

I'll try and catch up/make a content post sometime tonight, I've just been busy IRL and I have a few other games going on (on and off-site). =/

After that, I'll try keeping up with the thread, but posting will be very minimal till Monday, if I manage to get the time anyways.

[InflatablePie]

Something in this post seems off. I don't know why. I've read it three times and still don't understand it, for one.

This (by Hoopla) is worse, as she doesn't even address her little breakdown and instead goes right back on TBM.

I can see Hoopla/TBM. fitz is also a bit scummy in his latest post, but he doesn't exactly fit in well with those two. Maybe fitz/TBM, but not Hoopla/fitz or even all three - I don't think there would be two scum bussing one - this is of course, assuming the setup is 8:3:1.

[InflatablePie]

Actually, Hoopla/fitz pairing might work if there's three scum, if one is on the Nik wagon or something. But they're both pushing/voting for TBM so it's unlikely IMO.

I still think Nik is town, but the open caution of him to hammer has got me worried. It's reminding me of a certain "insane tell"...

[InflatablePie]

Sorry guys, I spent one night too long at my girlfriend's house.

Catching up now.

[InflatablePie]

Seems I haven't missed much. I have no problem with a massclaim. Shall we set an order or anything like that? Assuming everyone's alright with doing this.

@Nik, may I ask what prompted you to scan q21?

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Claim:

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I think I'm gonna go with fitz, personally. This recent post in particular has caught my eye, as he seems to get angry at MS for voting him, then proceeds to deflect suspicion on to MS. I don't like this. Then there's this where his "sudden change of heart" on Hoopla seems odd, as well as the cheesy "RIP TBM/Furry" comment - and this is funny because he was the first vote on TBM the day of his lynch. These two posts are from today - I don't have much time at the moment to look back at all of his posts. I'll just leave this here:

Vote: havingfitz

I like MS as an alternative - mostly because I can barely remember one of Gwyn's posts and I highly doubt Oso is scum. So for the four 'nillas, I'd go fitz > MS >= Gwyn > Oso.

I'll check Gwyn out in ISO when I get the chance, so I can make a more definitive stance on the middle two.

[InflatablePie]

I ended up working a double shift and passed out once I got home. x_x

Hoopla's case with the votals is a convincing one. And a fitz/Gwyn team would make sense, since fitz seemingly isn't willing to vote for Gwyn at the moment. Although to be fair, I'm not on the Gwynwagon either, so I can see how she'd pick me as a possible partner, too.

Although, on the other hand, Gwyn has picked up a lot of votes very quickly. This is most likely due to the fact that all these people think Gwyn is scum, but it's worth noting if Gwyn flips town.

I'll wait for a defense before (possibly) casting the hammer.

[InflatablePie]

Vote: havingfitz

It's either him or MS fmpov. Has to be.

[InflatablePie]

I see where you're coming from Hoopla, but I did not hammer because Gwyn had gained a crapload of votes quickly without making a post to defend himself. It seemed a bit off to me how he gathered votes so fast, despite the good case you had with his voting pattern, and I wanted to at least hear how he would have defended himself. Unfortunately, q21 hammered before I got the chance. Of course, you're wrong from my point of view... but I can see how you'd interpret that as a hint towards a "Pie/Gwyn pairing".

Unvote

because Hoopla asked nicely and kind of has a point. Question though: if we're in MyLo, would a no lynch today be a plausible idea at all? If it really is 4:2, then a no lynch would eliminate one player, making things easier to narrow down. It would most likely be Nikanor (iirc, everyone but Nik/Hoopla claimed vanilla, meaning no doc), but with a roleblocker alive our cop's powers are limited. Plus, if we are somehow in 9:2:1, that means right now, we have 5:1 - if we lynch scum, we then have to no lynch to lylo. Either way, we have to vote no lynch, the question is if we do it today or tomorrow. If Hoopla's theory is correct (or even if it isn't), it seems the smarter move to NL today, but I'm not sure how you guys treat MyLo here on MS. Of course, we can still scumhunt today and attempt to peg scum, so let's continue.

Essentially, things are coming down to process of elimination. Nik is cop, Hoopla is PGO. So that leaves fitz, MS and Oso. I'm not liking fitz out of those three and I want him lynched today. I believe he's the best choice for today's lynch. If he flips scum, I think MS is the last member of the mafia, only because I do not think Oso is scum. I would be very surprised if he was.

[InflatablePie]

If for some ungodly reason he does not flip scum, I have a feeling I'll get lynched next, since him and I are the two prime suspects today. Also, Hoopla says if I am town, then fitz is scum; I assume her logic is working the other way around as well, so I know one person who would vote me in that case.

But that would leave us with a team of MS/Oso FMPOV.

[InflatablePie]

The point I was trying to make, was:

What does it matter what he flips? How would that be indicative of

my

alignment in any way shape or form?

...Or am I missing something here?

Nik is "confirmed town", Hoopla is town, Oso is most likely town. So that leaves you and fitz. I would like fitz lynched today. He will flip scum, then we lynch you. Sound good?


No one answered me, so I will repeat myself: what are everyone's thoughts of a no lynch here? On one hand we have to no lynch eventually and this might narrow down suspects, but on the other hand we lose an opinion (and probably confirmed town in Nik).

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Just wondering.

Not a scum slip by any means. I'm just confident, that's all.

[InflatablePie]

I have more experience on EM than in forum mafia, if that explains things. <_<

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If for some ungodly reason he does not flip scum, I have a feeling I'll get lynched next, since him and I are the two prime suspects today.

Except for the bit about it being mylo. I'm surprised you're this careless to not know there won't be any other lynches if we're wrong today - but then again, Epicmafia solves that riddle.

Hey, I have a few games on and offsite under my belt, I just used to play EM from about September to March-ish. And haven't reached a mylo situation in any of my games, so...

My confusion in

that

quote is just me being an idiot. ._.

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Prod received. Whoops.

I think Nik meant, why are you voting me over fitz, since everything's narrowed down to me/you/fitz (and technically Oso).

Could be wrong, though.

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Vote: havingfitz

Quick skim through ISO:

- In his third post, he comments on the PGO claim in a fencesitting-ish way.
- Next post he makes, he jumped on the Hoopla wagon - this is after Hoopla had voted for fitz.
- Pressuring people to hammer on TBM here.
- Stays away from the Gwynplaine wagon*
- In this post, he deflects suspicion onto MS after receiving a vote in a very scummy way.

Currently, he is a better option than myself because I like to think I've been helping town; giving my opinions and asking questions when needed and whatnot, while fitz has made quite a few scummy posts this game that few seem to notice or recall. Notably an OMGUS attitude.

*I suppose you could apply this to me, but I was willing to hammer if Gwyn would not have posted an adequate defense. Then q21 hammered while I was at work.


Hoopla, you're welcome and thanks for asking nicely? o_O

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For what it's worth, fitz also had MS as his main suspicion, until a few posts into this day where Hoopla (and others) began to have suspicions of me, then conveniently changed his mind and made me his highest suspicion (similar to doing the 180 on Hoopla's PGO claim earlier in the game).

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The thing about Oso is that he's seemed protown for most of the game, so I am finding it hard to see him as scum.

The question I beg of you, Hoopla, is that it seems you are leaning towards me being scum at the end of your post. May I ask why you did not hammer? Not that I want you to, of course, just curious.

I'll reread your post again because tbh I skimmed it since it's 3 AM, and I'll look at Midnight/Gwyn interactions as well. Possibly once I wake up since I'm tired, but I might want to do that now... we'll see.

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Also, Hoopla, what do you think of an Oso/MS team? I didn't see you mention it.

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Well, after seeing MS' reaction to Gwyn's accusations of him, then unless there was serious bussing attempts by Gwyn, it wouldn't make much sense for MS to be scum after all.

Hoopla, you just might be right. I'm putting my vote where it matters, since fitz will apparently not be lynched today either.

Unvote, Vote: Oso

Now, I know countervoting looks bad and he's been protown for most of the game (making things look worse for me and I'm at L-1 as well), but MS' interactions with Gwyn do make it unlikely for MS to be scum. I'd implore the rest of you to read MS in ISO and see this for yourselves. FMPOV, it's fitz/Oso. I didn't even consider this until now.

Further supporting Hoopla's theory of Oso/fitz and bussing being foolish, Oso narrows things down to me and fitz from his point of view, but places me at L-1, despite a solid reason (rather, I can't see one) and my case on fitz.

I think I had something else to say, but I forget. Maybe I'll remember in the morning.

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Wall of text after wall of text, and all you guys really do is say the same thing. Oso says fitz is town because... he's town, and fitz does the same to Oso. Hoopla keeps saying she thinks MS is town so the votals lead to fitz/Oso and I agree. I assume MS agrees with Hoopla since he's voting as such.

Oso, what you don't realize is that this scumteam theory is supported because fitz did not hammer you, not to mention the constant calling each other town thing. As opposed to me getting three votes from the unconfirmed.

I didn't see Hoopla's quote as an insult to your intelligence and think you might be overreacting.

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Okay, I'm sick and have a headache from hell and tried reading your posts Oso, but I'm still so damn confused. I really don't get what either of you are going on about.

I'll comment on it tomorrow unless you're lynched by then or unless I'm feeling better later. k?

fitz's post is full of AtE though - anyone with eyes can see that.

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I read that like 5 times and still don't know what Oso is trying to say. I feel stupid.

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It's possible. And, it makes sense.

I guess we'll have to wait for Nik before we find out, though.

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Taking his posts into complete isolation, I would say fitz is scum regardless of Oso's alignment simply due to the sheer buddying to Oso that's going on there. In the context of this game, however, it IS pretty obvious they're buddies.

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There has to be only one left. And I still think it's fitz. He defended the Oso wagon so strongly, like he knew Oso was town. However, I suppose the smartest move for today would be to No Lynch. Thoughts?

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Depends who dies tonight.

For certain, it would end up with Hoopla as the clear and the other two arguing who is the better lynch. However, trying to lynch someone today requires a complete majority, and with three unclears, well... =/

NL is the typical move, I believe. Discussion is still welcome.

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You use too many of these... >.>

But I suppose the mafia could no-kill as well, so...

Fuck? ._.

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@fitz: Because defending a townie makes you look town; simple. Scum know who is what alignment, so they can use that to make themselves seem town by lynching their buddy (bussing) or defending a townie.

And now you're back over to believing Hoopla's claim. AGAIN. It must feel nice to change when it's convenient, eh?

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IP gets scummy vibes because of the way he acted as far as Gywnplaine was concerned. I have no earthly idea why he would be even hesitant to vote him when he had the chance to. Gwyn was scummy as hell, what was there to be doubtful about? .-.

I've already explained this - he garnered a lot of votes in a short amount of time without saying ANYTHING in between them. It seemed off to me.

I understand the suspicion towards me, but in this case, you guys are wrong.

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Why is that a mad face?

it was supposed to be a =/

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Vote: No lynch

YES I KNOW IT'S ALREADY HAMMERED IN SHUT UP

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unvote

SEE LOOK HE'S WAGONING

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You don't have a sense of humor, do you MS?

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I believe I know what I'm doing here.

Vote: fitz

Voting this early in lylo may be dangerous, but I've already come to the conclusion that Hoopla is not scum.

I've already presented what I think is a good case on fitz - even though Oso did not flip scum, fitz was EXTREMELY opposed to Oso's lynch, even though it would eventually happen due to Hoopla's place on the wagon, along with myself and MS switching (Hoopla herself being very influential; Nik's vote was just a matter of him getting in the thread). He knew Oso was town and switching so suddenly would condemn him, so he defended Oso - when Oso flipped town, he could say "I told you so".

I believe I have made other points during the days as well, I'll look back for those if needed. More content/arguing to come later, promise.

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If Hoopla IS scum, well, the game will be over in about 2 minutes or less since she just posted.

It's a risk I am willing to take.

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If we lynch fitz today, it won't be a draw, now will it?

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Obviously we now know you're town. What do you mean, 1/7?

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Furry made a good case on early-D1 fitz here.

He ignores the PGO claim at first, to test the waters (saying he's leaning scum but doesn't take a full stance), then decides to vote Hoopla after RH and Slepz.

This post contains a lot of fitz trying to explain his actions, while deflecting suspicion back onto either his attackers or another user.

- And why say bandwagon hoppers need to go immediately after hopping on my bandwagon...do you need to go?
- Furry's 'case' on me does make me a little leery of him but not enough to move my vote.
- The same could be said for your (and nikanor's) criticisms and votes on me. I.e. your point is worthless.
- @Furry...what is your take on xRECONERx. He appears to have ignored the PGO claim intially as well and has done a much better job of "continuing to take up space instead of contribute" than the two RV post you called me out for.

This post too.

Hoopla...your suspicions towards me amount to nothing more than OMGUS reasoning
Nikanor.... *snip* That seems a bit a contradiction...which I find suspcious.
xRECKONERx...Why do I annoy you? You should postmore content or else Furry will not be happy.

And this in response to Jacob caling him scum.

Based on the time you have put into the game I can understand this profound and insightful analysis. Bravo. Your exams are in for a thrashing.

A bit later, fitz says here that he'd be more suspicious of Hoopla if TBM was town. Here (right after day starts) he has a change of heart on Hoopla. During the Oso/fitz VS me/MS/Hoopla war the other day, he went back to suspecting Hoopla. Then yesterday he jumps back on thinking she is town. Changing his mind to fit the most optimal strategies.

I may also mention that fitz found Gwyn the least suspicious player (here and here. He never joins that wagon. Neither did I, but a quick series of votes always pings my scumdar a bit and at least I expressed willingness to hammer (and would have, had he not been hammered by someone else - your choice on whether to believe me or not).

Then there's the walls of text where he defends Oso extremely hard. Like I said, fitz switching to Oso would be suicide for him, so he chose to defend him and try to get me lynched (and probably settle for Hoopla at that point). Townies don't know anything but their own alignment (Hoopla even put Nik at only 99%), but fitz defended Oso like he knew he was town. Which, he did.

That's about all I have without going deep in-depth into posts, as I did skim some of his longer ones.

fitz's case on me will probably include me not hammering Gwyn (explained a few paragraphs up), trying to save Jacob (explained, was a misconception due to being in one game onsite with a SK and I hammered after convincing arguments), and switching suddenly to Oso on that one day (Hoopla made a convincing case, persuading both MS and myself). Interested in hearing what he throws together.

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I don't remember my thought process exactly, but I haven't even had my morning coffee today.

I'll try and remember it and post D4-related stuff after I get off of work tonight.

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I don't remember what I meant by "weird reason he was voting Slepz in the first place", but Gwyn going from Slepz to jacob to Slepz (right?) seemed really weird. Especially since Nik asked and Gwyn just went right along with it.

I don't have many thoughts on D4 besides what I've already said about fitz's superbuddying of Oso. I can probably go back and analyze that day tomorrow, but I do work most of the day (again).

Going to sleep because 8 hour+ shifts suck.

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InflatablePie: Ever played in a 2:1:9 before (as town or scum)?

Don't think I have. Newbie 902, Mafia 112 (Large), Mini 963 and Mini 992 are my on-site completed games. Two scum, I think 5 scum and an SK, 3 scum (w/ traitor), and three scum respectively.

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Why is it everytime go into 3-way lylo, the other player needs to repeatedly say PIE IS SCUM and use AtE?

First of all fitz, Day 1 started on a Sunday morning (for me). Now, point out my posting elsewhere on the site. I might have been making quick posts in Furry since that game was the one that had been going on longest at the time. Likewise, I am posting in this one more than my other game(s). Keep in mind that I also have a work schedule (usually a lunch shift or double shift on Sundays), real life plans (although rare) and had 4 games going on at one point during this game. I'm not seeing me entering the game late as a scumtell. =/

He accuses my Hoopla vote of being countervoting (despite the fact I had expressed doubts about the PGO claim pre-Hoopla’s vote on me)

This is the only part I remember of your accusations right now - you never took a firm stance in that post. You said you were leaning scum, but the way it was phrased, you could have came back to it and said "Hey, I said I wasn't completely sure" and flipped completely, depending on what your options were at the time. I've done that as scum before, iirc, although maybe not in the same situation.

Will address everything else later. Going to work, will be back on later tonight. I can print out my timecard if no one believes me.

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I find his initial suspicion/vote (post 57) on me interesting as he bases it on the fact I unvoted (like Oso) and points out that this was first brought up by Hoopla. Then a few posts later (#62) he adds meat to his vote with some ridiculous comment about not explaining my unvote further (and btw…at the point of the game that IP has entered…I did have a vote out…on Hoopla). Why do I need to explain an unvote further that is no longer even in effect? He accuses my Hoopla vote of being countervoting (despite the fact I had expressed doubts about the PGO claim pre-Hoopla’s vote on me) and makes no comment about Hoopla’s vote on me made with absolutely zero reason. Then in the very next post (#63) accuses me of trying to blend in because of my unvote (ridiculous) and my ‘BW’ vote on Hoopla….despite the fact he was displaying the same ‘blending in’ with his suspicions of me (initially brought up by Hoopla) and his ‘BW’ vote on me.

post 62

I had a more townie feel from Oso, who removed his vote due to his playstyle. When you unvoted here, with your fencesitting-ish reasoning/PGO reaction, it sent up red flags.

Oso did the same thing as you: unvoting because we were "out of the RVS" and not replacing it. Blending in may not have been the best word choice, perhaps "piggybacking" fits better.

I admitted my vote was a bit of a wagon vote in my first post. In my ISO 4:

My vote, maybe. I admit it was a bit BW-ish. But it doesn't mean I have no reason for keeping a vote on you at this time.

And at least I had reasoning; your Hoopla vote came after 40 (aka "that post" from here on out) and people began to lean towards a Hoopla lynch. This was also after you had gained some votes from other players - when all else fails, why not jump on a wagon and try to make yourself fade out of the spotlight?

Now, I've been confident Hoopla is town because scum claiming PGO in the first post of the game is silly. Add this on to the fact that she's been a huge contributor and very protown, and we have ourselves a 99% townie.

fitz, your attack of me for finding Hoopla to be most likely town is similar to me attacking you for defending Oso so hard on D4, no?

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EBWOP (not really content): I forgot to mention this way back when; no one found my joke in 62 funny at all? =/

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why am I awake

@Hoopla: I was simply thinking of all possibilities. I think someone had mentioned it possibly being a 9:2:1, so I was trying to think of it from all sides at that time. I'll try to find the post if I can.

fitz's first point: I haven't played many games on site, but I recently went to 3-way lylo in Furry mafia, where FakeGod kept using AtE and mentioning that I am scum every other sentence. Although in that game, I was scum, so things are a bit different here.

Second: fitz, the thread was made on a Friday, but

Day 1 started Sunday morning

. Don't know about you, but I can't post in a locked/night-phase thread. I believe on that day I was working on Sunday, at the very least during the afternoon-ish times (Eastern btw); don't recall if i was a double shift or not since that was 2 months ago. However, I did not read through this thread until a short while before I posted Monday afternoon. Feel free to dig up any posts on the site I might have made during that Sunday; point is that I did not read through this game until Monday. You're really stretching on this: accusing someone of being scum for being the "last person to enter" is more RVS than anything. I wouldn't seriously find someone suspicious just because they were the last person to confirm/post their first post.

Third: I don't know Hoopla's alignment - obviously town at this point since she has not hammered - but I have said many times that scum claiming PGO is rare and silly, plus the fact that she has had very protown vibes and heaps of content. Look at her first few posts concerning analysis of the PGO reactions and tell me that's doesn't look protown. I don't think scum would put in as much effort as Hoopla has, either, but maybe it might be because I've just played with sorta-lazy scum.

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Vote: havingfitz.

Why not?
We're probably looking at a scumteam of uno now.

Nope, three player scum team. Why you ask? Because of your role and mine. That would be insanely unfair for the mafia to be up against a cop, PGO

and

an SK, with only a goon and a roleblocker. One cop investigation, SK kill or incorrect nightkill, or even a lucky Day 1 lynch wipes out half the scumteam. How is that fair?

Cops are sucky roles in 2:1:9's, because then if you have a Godfather, the cop has only one possible target to find - what's the point? But then of course, there can't be a GF in a 2-player team if a roleblocker exists. There's no way it was 2-player scumteam. Cops are too powerful to be in 2:1:9's, and that's not even taking my role into account.

It must be made known, there are two scum, and we are in mylo. Sorry Nikanor.

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Oh, and it's just funny how you suspected Hoopla, then thought she was town on the massclaim day (Gwyn lynch day too IIRC), then thought she was scum when you were sure it couldn't be Oso (and agreed with Hoopla on MS's interactions with Gwyn - lol), then switched back at mylo.

Again like I stated, you said that Hoopla would be more suspicious if TBM flipped town here.

By the way, this post saying he finds Hoopla to be town,

which goes against what he was talking about above

also has what I believe to be an unnecessary comment that caught my eye: "TBM and Furry on Nikanor (may they rest in peace) ". Might be nothing major to some, but it's in the same vein of congratulating the doctor in my eyes.

Oh, and again looking back through ISO, this is more of fitz deflecting suspicion back on to an attacker, except in a much harder and more obvious way this time.

[InflatablePie]

A slip? Well, that would imply I am scum. No, that was me being stupid and forgetting this game was in (what we thought was) mylo.

Yes, I did mention Oso's protown-ness multiple times throughout the game, but Hoopla made a very compelling case. MS and Gwyn's attacks on each other didn't seem like scum-to-scum-bussing/chatter when I looked back at it, so process of elimination left you and Oso, furthered by the fact that you two called each other town so much (especially you to him).

See, I don't cozy up to anyone. It just so happens that Hoopla has been protown, therefore I think she is town. Also, are you saying you haven't tried "cozying up to her" in any way?

"Feel free to hammer Pie and win the game... Pie is scum, etc."

As for your last "point", I wasn't lamenting anything and that wasn't AtE. That was more of an attack on you, constantly saying I'm scum seemingly every other sentence and using AtEs yourself. The rest of that part of your post is just... let's leave it at "silly".

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Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

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By the way, Hoopla, if you're actually, say, a bomb or vengeful townie... then I am going to cry. Then congratulate you on a good play and slap myself for being stupid.

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...

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Hoopla, that was a genius play/fakeclaim. That win is well-deserved. Shame I didn't consider it until after I hammered, but I had no real choice after fitz found my slip and started building his case better.

Also:

She whisked her away into the noose

...what?

(Fixed. You can imagine how much blood was rushing to my head.)

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Sorry Pie Your day got even worse it seems.

Couldn't sleep last night, passed out at 11, woke up half an hour after I was due in for work, shitty day at work, then I get all excited when I look here and I hammer and -



The feeling I got when I saw Hoopla's pic... let's say the flavor was accurate there.

Hoopla, very very good game. Curious, did you think it was me the whole day or did you just slowly take fitz's side? I'd like to see those thoughts you talked about earlier if you don't mind.

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If that was all planned out somehow, then that makes my Death Note pic even funnier, hmm?

@Hoopla: Yeah, with your selfvote I had no chance going into today. ._.

After the Oso lynch I was considering going "fuck it, I can't win" and was gonna target you. I REALLY SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT

---

By the way, for those wondering why I killed and roleblocked Nik, I did that just on the offchance that Hoopla was faking the PGO claim. I thought she'd be a doc or something, but not a vengeful townie. x_x

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Yeah i shouldn't have posted that.

MS, because I was gonna try and push fitz as you can see, so you were the only option. I couldn't No Kill because of Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

Does anyone have any tips for my scumgame? I seem to always lose as scum, on and offsite. <_<

[InflatablePie]

Note to self: kill all PGOs D:

Setup was fun, graphics were cool (I clicked on one or two of the night ones btw), flavor was good, votals/prods were frequent. I'd totally sign up for another one of your games; you can put me on your "possible replacements" list for future games if you want.

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Sorry bout the loss, Gwyn.