Open 236 - Pamplona Mafia (C9++) Game Over

[Alduskkel]

No... it could be VVVV. Also, we have only a 50% chance of an SK.

ON TO RANDOM VOTING!

Vote: Ythan

.

[Alduskkel]

But that's in the air. We know at least 2 Vs are there, possibly 4.

Yeah. That's what I just said. You seemed to think that we had VV (which you couldn't know, regardless of your role).

And why aren't you even sharing a reason for your silly little vote?

Didn't feel like one.

[Alduskkel]

What would you suggest instead of random voting?

[Alduskkel]

@ekiM + Aldusskkel: I'll fully explain it a bit later. I went for ekiM simply because he thought RVS was going to be helpful, and I wanted to know. Slipping just doesn't happen as a result of random votes, the way I see it. If anything, RVS usually leads to a dead-end if done completely randomly.

Why don't you fully explain

now

? What's the holdup?

[Alduskkel]

Hay is for horses, Ythan.

Also, your title makes this pun a lot better.

Are you going to say anything else, though?

[Alduskkel]

I'm looking over a lot of setup information before I look at the smaller pool of probably meaningless RVS information. Are you questioning why I'm not contributing to the noise?

Well with your sole contribution to the game having been one word I was trying to get more content out of you.

I don't think there is much to glean from the setup at this point, all we know is that we have VV or VVVV (and either way, we have at least 1 Vigilante).

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

I eenie meenie miney moed.

Before anyone answers, does anyone disagree with asking everyone what their policy is on shooting N0 as a vig?

What if someone says they would shoot N0? That lowers the probability that they're a Vig and makes the Mafia's job of finding power roles easier.

[Alduskkel]

I'm looking over a lot of setup information before I look at the smaller pool of probably meaningless RVS information. Are you questioning why I'm not contributing to the noise?

Well with your sole contribution to the game having been one word I was trying to get more content out of you.

Immediately after my first post? Has everyone even posted?

No, drmy hadn't but the point is that popping in to just say "hey" is active lurking, which is scummier than just not having posted yet.

I don't think there is much to glean from the setup at this point, all we know is that we have VV or VVVV (and either way, we have at least 1 Vigilante).

Anyone with any role other than vig knows more than that.

And of these people who are not Vigs (or VTs), who is going to talk about it? You're left with power roles and mafia. Neither wants to be outed, so revealing more knowledge of the setup is dumb no matter how you look at it.

So whatever setup info anyone has aside from knowing that it's VV or VVVV, they aren't going to tell anyone else about it.

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

I eenie meenie miney moed.

Doesn't match up.

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

Yeah, I picked a random argument that's rather trivial and saw how people reacted to it, and that being that you thinking RVS was going to help was nowhere near the mark. What do I learn:

-you're quite reasoned and level-headed
-Alduskkel has a rather impatient temper in this game, which is fascinating.
-Ythan is content to actively ignore the debate altogether. Also fascinating.
-Zajnet is reasoned when defending that same opinion I find very, very wrong. Not afraid to weigh in.

Ignoring the fact that I don't agree with this assessment of my play, just what did any of this gain? All you've said is that you find stuff "fascinating." That does nothing to help find scum.

So, YG, just how is all this going to help the town?

Insistent on not accompanying his vote with any kind of random vote stage flavor, yet then felt it necessary to question me regarding my brief entry post, despite the fact that some players had not even posted and in fact still have not. Inquisitive but not about anything useful; the same goes for his questioning of yab about the latter's pending explanation of something or other. Dismissive about setup analysis.

If you can tell me what we have to gain from setup analysis right now, be my guest. Also, I find it funny how you're voting me for being inquisitive "but not useful" when, as you pointed out, some people hadn't even posted yet. What makes me scummier? If your answer resembles "active lurking" then head back to the beginning of this post.

[quote='Ythan"]Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?[/quote]And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?

So. Re: Netlava. At this point it really does seem like he didn't give it thought. He might be town who just made a quick post (it is short) or maybe he's scum who just didn't care. I don't know which, since on the one hand I almost posted something similar to him but on the other hand it only took me a quick think to change my mind on it.

Unvote

, for the moment.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP: Fixed quote.

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?

[Alduskkel]

No, drmy hadn't but the point is that popping in to just say "hey" is active lurking, which is scummier than just not having posted yet.

Bullshit it's active lurking. Not every post devoid of content falls under that heading.

So, what does posting "Hey." accomplish? Tell me that.

And of these people who are not Vigs (or VTs), who is going to talk about it? You're left with power roles and mafia. Neither wants to be outed, so revealing more knowledge of the setup is dumb no matter how you look at it.

So whatever setup info anyone has aside from knowing that it's VV or VVVV, they aren't going to tell anyone else about it.

I was not talking about gleaning information through discussion. I said originally that I was looking over setup information before looking over the smaller amount of information in the thread thus far. You then quoted me to say that there was little or nothing to glean, for no reason I can imagine.

Just stating a fact. We now know it's VV or VVVV. What does that tell us? Not much, we know there's a Vigilante and that's pretty much all we know.

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

I just answered.

Also, I find it funny how you're voting me for being inquisitive "but not useful" when, as you pointed out, some people hadn't even posted yet. What makes me scummier? If your answer resembles "active lurking" then head back to the beginning of this post.

But you were

actually

active lurking. That's different from

not

active lurking, so if you're trying to call me a hypocrite then that will have to wait.

Alright. I accused you of active lurking. You're accusing me of active lurking. See a problem? Plus, your one-word post was way more empty than anything I've posted.

That's not to say you're active lurking now, but, at the time, you were.

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well.

And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?

Is there supposed to be some contradiction here?

Yeah. What's the difference between drmy and ekiM's votes?

[Alduskkel]

This is turning into a Mastin-fest.

[Alduskkel]

Just stating a fact. We now know it's VV or VVVV. What does that tell us? Not much, we know there's a Vigilante and that's pretty much all we know.

Then why did you question my consideration of the setup in the first place?

I just don't think that it's worth spending much time on. I just summed it up in a few sentences. There. Done.

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

I just answered.

And you lied.[/quote]No. What makes you say that?

Alright. I accused you of active lurking. You're accusing me of active lurking. See a problem? Plus, your one-word post was way more empty than anything I've posted.

That's not to say you're active lurking now, but, at the time, you were.

You foolish fool. Do you just not know what active lurking is?

Forgive me, but here's a quick wiki definition:

A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game.

Posting "Hey." sounds like it fits.

Well I said that Dr's was disingenuous. It's still in the quote pyramid actually.

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

Narrow what down?

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP:

I close my eyes and randomly point at the player list.

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

I just answered.

And you lied.

No. What makes you say that?

I should stop screwing up my quotes.

[Alduskkel]

Hey kyle99, who do you suspect most?

[Alduskkel]

No. What makes you say that?

The reason you gave for voting me is a lie. Had i not said that very plainly?

It's not. Do I have to walk you through the process? Step 1, point at player list. Step 2, close eyes. Step 3, Eenie Meenie Miney Moe and move your finger each time you say a word.

Forgive me, but here's a quick wiki definition:

A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game.

Posting "Hey." sounds like it fits.

So you

were

active lurking. And I dropped one post for my egosearch before I settled down to business. Not the same.

Okay, first of all, past tense noted. So neither of us thinks the other is active lurking currently.

Secondly, how was I even active lurking before? Asking questions does progress the game.

At least

as much as random voting.

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

It does not. Read. As genuine. Next.

Elaborate. It's disingenuous because it doesn't read as genuine? Lame.

Narrow what down?

Really, do you not see how what roles may be in the game might narrow down what roles are in the game?

Okay, you wanted to ask a question that would result in an increased likelihood of Mafia finding a Vigilante. I asked what you meant by narrowing things down, since I presumed you didn't mean narrowing down the possible people who could be vigs.

So. What was the point of that question, hmm?

@kyle99: My point is that you're voting for me.

That should answer Ythan's accusation in the post above, too.

[Alduskkel]

And by the way

Vote: Ythan

for having no good explanation for asking that obvious role fish question.

[Alduskkel]

Secondly, how was I even active lurking before? Asking questions does progress the game.

At least

as much as random voting.

Have I not been clear that I found your feigned inquiries disingenuous?

And what makes you think that they're disingenuous?

Elaborate. It's disingenuous because it doesn't read as genuine? Lame.

Are you some kind of maroon. I think you're lying. How much clearer can I make that for you.

How about you actually elaborate like I asked?

So. What was the point of that question, hmm?

It is literally as if you are unable to read because I find myself faced with the exact same questions I have already answered for you numerous times.

More question dodging.

[Alduskkel]

And what makes you think that they're disingenuous?

This is a dumb question. You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are just obtuse. I don't trust your inquiry because I don't trust your inquiry. It's how it reads to me. I will not attempt to further break this down.

That's equivalent to saying I'm scummy because I'm scummy.

How about you actually elaborate like I asked?

Yep.

Obviously not an elaboration.

More question dodging.

Incorrect, and this is a poor attempt at painting it so. I have answered each question you have asked. In some cases I answered before you even did so, for the nth time anyway.

Hardly. I often have to repeat my questions to you -- such as the above 2, among others.

@Ald: Why so cutting and sarcastic? Is this how you normally post?

Do you consider a player active lurking after one post? Is it scummy at that point? (referencing: "Hey.")

I'm usually at least somewhat sarcastic. I have no idea if I'm being particularly sarcastic/cutting in this game. I don't have a sarcasm meter Firefox add-on that tells me if I've reached my sarcasm quota for a particular post.

Though that would be a good idea. Someone get on that.

Anyway, second question. No, one post alone can't label a player as an active lurker. But 2 pages into the game I'd be willing to latch on to the tiniest of scum tells. And let me be clear when I say that posting "Hey." and then not contributing at all is scummy.

[Alduskkel]

At this point you're just saying, "I've explained this before." (when you haven't) and "You're ignoring my answers." (I haven't.)

And if you have answered this stuff before? Quote it.

[Alduskkel]

If you've got nothing to hide,

quote them

. Is that so hard?

[Alduskkel]

How on Earth could I have something to hide?

Well, you're not quoting them so...

[Alduskkel]

Ythan you need to suck up your pride and give me the quotes already. Seriously.

[Alduskkel]

It's you not being able to answer one little question either because you don't have a good answer or you consider it below you.

This doesn't have to be a big issue. Why are you making it one?

[Alduskkel]

Ythan, I've explained the process I went through in order to decide on voting for you.

You just said I lied and didn't explain further.

I ask how drmy was disingenuous. You said he's disingenuous because he's not being genuine. You don't need a dictionary to know that disingenuous = not being genuine. So your logic is one big circle of he's scummy because he's scummy.

You ask a question that could result in the Mafia finding vigilante(s) easier. When me and The Fonz ask you about it, you say you were just speculating. Which doesn't address the anti-town aspect of it at all.

I don't know how I can be any more clear. You haven't explained

anything

.

[Alduskkel]

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

It does not. Read. As genuine. Next.

[Alduskkel]

It is a real shame that that isn't what you said I said.

It's a direct quote.

[Alduskkel]

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well.

And yet, you have no problem with ekiM's vote. Why?

Is there supposed to be some contradiction here?

Yeah. What's the difference between drmy and ekiM's votes?

Well I said that Dr's was disingenuous. It's still in the quote pyramid actually.

Okay. What makes it disingenuous?

It does not. Read. As genuine. Next.

Elaborate. It's disingenuous because it doesn't read as genuine? Lame.

Are you some kind of maroon. I think you're lying. How much clearer can I make that for you.

How about you actually elaborate like I asked?

Yep.

Obviously not an elaboration.

Since the response-chain is right here for you, why don't you identify what it is exactly here that is an explanation of what makes drmy's vote disingenuous?

[Alduskkel]

Limited access until Sunday.

But according to his wiki, [Ythan]'s only been lynched once as Town-aligned, so I looked there (skimmed through MN930; two months old). At least when he was under suspicion, he appeared to be behaving rationally (self-vote aside).

Self-voting usually isn't rational unless the only other option is no lynch. Also, thinking that Ythan is the same person now as he was two months ago is nonsense.

[Alduskkel]

Meh, I was going to use my vote to issue a call to arms for lurkerhunting here, but the worst lurker is the guy i'm already voting, and probably the worst active lurker is V/LA. So, yeah, join me on Netlava.

How am I active lurking?

[Alduskkel]

Back from vacation. Need to catch up a fair bit. Just reached the stupid stuff over my random vote. Point is, I closed my eyes and pointed. Then I eenie meenie miney moed, changing my finger position each time.

[Alduskkel]

Oh hey.

Incidentally, @Prox: Al has already answered that question. He states that he closed his eyes, pointed at the player list, and went 'eeny meenie miney mo' which to me seems eminently plausible and not evidence that he lied at all.

Nailed it on the head.

Its relatively hard to do eeny-meeny-miney-mo with your eyes closed for starters.

No it isn't. You randomly move your finger each time you say a word, but not too far because then it'll drift off the player list.

Oh. I misread a post. Al is in the clear (sort of), but Ythan is also right in suspecting him (sort of).

Still, Ythan seems more likely town than Al, but only because of his content.

And that means what? Ythan is more active than me. I won't deny that, I've been gone for a week. On the other hand, you seem to think that this is an either/or thing. We could both be Town. We could both be Scum. Just because you think that Ythan is more likely to be Town than me doesn't mean I'm scum.

Well that's it for now. More tomorrow probably. Right now I'm tired since I had two plane trips today, among other things.

[Alduskkel]

Why would I lie about a random vote?

[Alduskkel]

It's ironic that drmy's calling Beefster a bad player. Pot calling the kettle black, as they say.

Anyway, I think it's obvious how far-fetched Prox's theory that I'm the Mafia Spy indicating Ythan as a power role is. It assumes so many things:

1. There's a Mafia Spy (has about a 7% chance).
2. I'm that Mafia Spy (1/10 chance not counting Socrates or Prox).
3. Assuming all of the above, that I investigated Ythan on N0.

Unlikely? Very. Compare that to my explanation of my random vote. I just find it funny that Prox says that no matter what I say he won't believe me.

2. It suggests that Ythan knows things. Things we don't. And I believe he's Town.

No, it doesn't. If I was the Mafia Spy I could be voting Ythan to indicate that he was Vanilla.

What makes you think that it's the opposite?

[Alduskkel]

Hey drmy, when you meta'd Netlava, did you come out suspecting him more or less than before you had meta'd him?

[Alduskkel]

Okay. What specifically made you suspect him a bit more?

[Alduskkel]

Why do you suspect Beefster? I didn't find any reasons while ISOing you. All you said was that he was "dumb and VI'ish."

[Alduskkel]

Hmmm.

Hey Ythan, you questioned my random vote on you because I didn't post a reason. Why didn't you question The Fonz, too? He did it in post 29.

Mod: Dry-Fit is voting for Ythan, not Beefster.

Thanks ~~NS

Prox: Why do you suspect Beefster?

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: drmyshottyizsik

.

What happened to suspecting Netlava and Beefster? Suddenly Ythan is your top suspect? Also, your previous Beefster vote (as noted by others) was out of the blue and bandwagony.

Your Ythan vote is equally bandwagony.

[Alduskkel]

Nurse doesn't seem like a very good scum claim.

Unvote

.

Now I'm off to the Marathon forum.

[Alduskkel]

In case the Mod is finicky:

Unvote

.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

.

Claim or no claim, I cannot believe how ridiculous you are. Your claim just saved your ass and now you want to hammer someone else before claim? Then you backtrack as Ythan pointed out and do a complete 180 on your stance.

[Alduskkel]

@yabbaguy: Well, Nurses aren't very high NK targets until a Doctor dies. drmy is enough of a VI that I, as scum, would probably save until near-lylo to off.

Even if the claim is possibly a poor one for scum, I don't really think highly enough of drmy's play to think he wouldn't risk a counter claim.

[Alduskkel]

Also Dry Fit is a poor lynch. He's been lurking for IRL reasons. He just said he had surgery. Who lies about that?!

[Alduskkel]

Then what's the fuss? It's not the reason I voted him. I voted him for pressure.

Ok as true or untrue as this may be, it kind of looks like you and Net put him L-2 to L-1, just to set up a town hammer, so the next day that towny would get suspicion on them, and you could drive that wagon to a mislynch too.

Don't you mean L-3 and L-2?

On the one hand, Beefster and Netlava's votes were kind of bandwagony. On the other hand, drmy's sudden defense of Dry Fit vs. his bandwagoning on Dry Fit to L-1 earlier makes me happy with my vote.

Seriously drmy, how scummy is Dry Fit to you? You voted him to L-1 and didn't mind if someone hammered without claim; then you backtracked on TWO things. One, that you would mind if someone hammered without a claim. Two, that you in fact don't find Dry Fit very scummy.

If you were Town I would have at least expected you to be consistent in your opinions, but lately I see nothing but 180s.

[Alduskkel]

Alright drmy, then how do you explain the obvious contradictions between 426 and 429? They were made two minutes apart from each other.

[Alduskkel]

I think I'd actually prefer to lynch Dry-fit, mostly because a lot of the votes on Beefster seem pretty lame.
Zajnet's: Just following Prox.
drmyshottizsik's: Bandwagoner, I think he's scum.

yabbaguy & The Fonz: Why Beefster over Dry-fit?

[Alduskkel]

Depends. Do you think we should wait for a claim? I must admit that I'm a bit skeptical because due to the timezone Beefster is in he probably won't be online for quite some time (chances are he's sleeping right now). So, if we decide we don't want to lynch him based on his claim then people will have to switch to Dry-fit on very short notice and no lynch might occur.

All in all, I don't think there's enough time to wait for Beefster to claim.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry, I guess I just forgot.

Unvote
Vote: Dry-fit

.

I won't be able to check the game again until it is already Night 1.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

. Terrible lurker, and contradicts himself within 2 minutes. Also looking at Zajnet who just sort of followed Prox as mentioned (and lurks).

Also keeping an eye on Netlava (for not seeing anything wrong with Ythan's N0 vig stuff) and Prox (gut, mainly).

[Alduskkel]

ALSO:

given that a mislynch could be a loss, be cautious with your votes. A pseudo-quicklynch could end the game

.

Mafia can't quicklynch anyone without getting killed by the vigilante the next night, and then we'd probably be in a standard 5p lylo and we can lynch any other Mafia that participated in the quicklynch.

Also Ythan's investigation could have also landed on the Mafia GF.

[Alduskkel]

Just iso'd Zajnet. I can't believe I didn't notice that he's done almost no scum hunting. Speaking of which, who do you suspect Zajnet?

I'm *almost* willing to put him at L-1, but I'll wait a bit because it's early in the Day and we're in a shaky lylo-ish position.

[Alduskkel]

Huh. Good posting by ekiM.

Zajnet, who do you suspect other than drmy?

[Alduskkel]

Also I know you suspect Netlava. But do you have any other suspicions?

[Alduskkel]

A bit hasty but it is improbable that drmy is the Nurse.

I hope his claim that he's a VT vs. his claim that he's a Nurse means that he's scum and not just drugged up.

[Alduskkel]

A pox on you, Zajnet.

[Alduskkel]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeessss.

Man that was so lucky and yet also so unlucky. Freaking even game, I'd say. I was REALLY worried when I got NK'd 'cause let's face it, I was the towniest looking scum. When you look at the night actions though, it was actually kind of surprising that I lived to N2!

Very interesting game to play in and watch. GG all. Thanks to Nobody Special for modding.

See if you can guess which scum member was which role. I think mine is fairly obvious

Also, I wonder who the Millers were?

[Alduskkel]

For some reason I was mixed up on the number of Ts.

Glad there wasn't an SK, though.

[Alduskkel]

I think kyle99 had a high opinion of your play so he wanted to shoot you.

I can just post the quicktopic if that's okay.

[Alduskkel]

I say take 5-10% out of the possibility for a T and assign it to the possibility of (a) self-awareMiller(s). As it stands just telling someone that they're a Miller in the current setup is giving them too much info.

[Alduskkel]

Eh, I don't think Prox minds. He didn't mention it in his last post.
http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/VCb7zLn6YJ8