Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[LoudmouthLee]

Random Vote: PranaDevil

for first-posting.

First game in over 2 or 3 years. Let's see how long it takes to shake off the rust.

[LoudmouthLee]

Vote: LoudmouthLee

Qualifying your vote as random? Want to make sure that no one suspects you for it?

Holy! Look at this! See how much times have changed?

http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... b7c13d19ce

Just as a quick justification: When I used to play, every initial vote was a random one. Check out that link. Mini 167.

Just want you to know that I'm feeling somewhat good about my PranaDevil vote. Since this is a no-claim game (as everyone will claim townie), it makes a lot less sense to bandwagon for no reason (especially when no one has checked in).

PranaDevil cast the third vote on me before people had even checked in. In the Good Old Days (Yeah, really showing my age), that was one of the easiest scumtells. Third vote in order to start a bandwagon. Especially in a mountainous game.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bandwagon why, CA? So I can claim Townie? Here. I'll make it easy on you.

Roleclaim: Townie. Vanilla.

Did you even look at the link I posted, CA? Did you see the last time I played a game? Look at most all of my games, in the good old days, when you made a vote that wasn't random, you used that to your advantage. You differentiated between a "vote with heft" and a "random vote".

With that being said, my vote stands on Prana and a

IGMEOY: CA

[LoudmouthLee]

Still quite happy with where my vote is currently lying.

Reason, or you just like hearing yourself talk without any sort of info. You're voting me because... why? Yeah. Uh-huh. I'm no newbie.

[LoudmouthLee]

Ahh, the New C9. I actually loved that variant. Fiasco and I worked a lot together on it, even though we went in different directions.

For now, since I'm so "old school..."

1) Random Vote means "I'm checking in and randomly voting for someone."
2) Vote means, well, vote.
3) Confirm Vote means "Unless an earthquake hits and accidentally kills the person I'm voting for, there's a very small chance of my vote changing.
4) FoS = Finger of Suspicion (which I believe you guys still use)
5) IGMEOY = I've got my Eye on You
6) WIFOM = Wine in Front of Me (a la the Princess Bride and Vinzinni.)
7) PBPA = Post by Post Analysis

That should cover anything I say that you won't understand right away.

Let's do some work, shall we?

Doesn't matter how good you are, voting someone using only the justification of "he voted for me" isn't good reasoning.

Actually, at this point, I need to explain one other acronym... OMGUS (Oh my god! You suck!) is voting for someone for no other reason besides they're voting for you.. at this stage of the game, it's no more than a random vote. I don't quite understand the necessity to scold here, especially since there's very little heat on you at this point.

FoS: Korashk

But I didn't think that; I was fully aware of the setup. My thought was that there was a pretty good chance that at least one person wouldn't be, and therefore some chance that a scum player would be one of those people, and therefore a minute chance that by encouraging an immediate massclaim, we could trick a scum into outing themselves straight away by claiming a power role.

Well, we didn't get that, and if you don't know what mountainous mafia is... shame on them However.. we got... "something", and if anyone wants to metagame this player (as I know nothing of his playing style), please do so..

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

Could be a joke (especially if HF is that type of guy), but could also be careless. I haven't made a decision on it yet, so

Minor FoS: HF

Otherwise, still haven't found a reason to move my vote off of Prana. Still third to jump onto the wagon, has done little to no legwork for his/her votes, and still hasn't tried to justify his "random" vote.. besides..

Still quite happy with where my vote is currently lying.

To me, that wasn't enough. My vote is not an OMGUS. I actually have a reason to vote you. So, if it makes you feel better...

UnRandom Vote: PranaDevil
Vote: PranaDevil

There. I explain all of this well enough for you? PS: For those of you who say I get defensive and wrapped up. It's me, and many of you don't know me well enough to Metagame me. I implore you, read my past games.

[LoudmouthLee]

I answered because it didn't seem like that much of a worthy question to require taking much time up over to be honest. It's page 2, so it's not as though we're going to have great reads on everyone yet. Also you just said that Xite (Who I think is male) said it was distancing anyway... so that is answering why Xite suspected them both, and it's something that scum often do as well.

Yet, you go out of your way to ignore anything I said? So very interesting. I look for a few things when I'm scumhunting, and you have ticked a few checkmarks off here.

In other words... Saga, I

do

mind that he was answering for someone else... possibly mafia coaching, perhaps?

I think the vast majority of you should have their votes on PranaDevil. There's one or two others who possibly deserve votes, but Prana, again, was the third to put a vote on someone early.. really early (before some people even checked in!), is ignoring questions / statements that question his credibility, and instead spends time answering questions posed to other people.

[LoudmouthLee]

Seeing as it's not worked. I actually had somewhat of a plan in voting for you Lee. At this stage I don't think you're scum. However, an early wagon can often draw up some opportunistic scum. So I threw a vote on you, and waited to see who did what with it.

As it would appear, we didn't get any scum coming out of the woodwork to try and drive the wagon any further forward, so it has become a bit pointless. But that will explain why I deliberately ignored your comments towards me until now. To answer them would have given the game up right at the first hurdle.

unvote

I'm somewhat curious as to you thinking I was going for an honest to god quick lynch though, you seem rather "jumpy" with your actions Lee. But at the moment I'll class that as possible town getting unnerved by a vote without a reason on them as I admit I have done so in the past.

But CA is also curious, considering you are admiting to voting me solely to get a wagon going. Interesting.

FoS still resting firmly on Saga as well though.

Firstly, a slight defense. I can't help it. There's a reason why I'm "LoudmouthLee". I'm loud, and I let my feelings known. That's a part of my play-style that will, probably, never change.

I'm curious about your "plan" and why you "chose me" for your plan. You say that you were trying to catch opportunistic scum. I'm unsure of that. You seemed to place a vote on me, and then instead of justifying it (as to see if the scum would jump on it), you merely said

Still quite happy with where my vote is currently lying.

It's counter-intuitive to the fact that you were trying to bait scum. If that was truly your intent, you would have tried to sell it much more than you did. Instead, you placed your vote on me, and decided to keep it there with nothing else to add. That doesn't seem like a bait to me.

Let it also be known that CA has changed his vote 3 times in 3 pages.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

Qualifying your vote as random? Want to make sure that no one suspects you for it?

I actually laughed at the role claim. What does "IGMEOY" mean?

But you are right, a bandwagon on you is not needed.

However, Unvote, Vote: Leech

Much more lucrative place for a vote. Everyone come and hop on the Leech wagon.

LmL - Pretty much all of those acronyms/terms are still in use. I had seen IGMEOY before, just never knew what it meant. Thanks!

I disagree about placing the third vote on the wagon being a tell in the RVS (It's very situational as a tell), but in the interest of getting a hearty bandwagon going, Unvote, Vote: Prana

With that being said, I will throw a

Major FoS: CA

out there, and I would be the ringleader of a bandwagon on either of these two guys.

To summarize, for those of you who feel i'm long winded.

The Case on Prana:

• Third vote on me to start a bandwagon, doesn't defend position, when pressured, unvotes and said "it was part of a plan."

The Case on CA:

• Three Votes on Three Pages. Seems to be trying to get a bandwagon started by hook or by crook.

We are, also, by far, the three most active players. (Prana - 9 posts, CA - 8 posts, and me, 7 posts.) I will keep that under consideration, as well.

[LoudmouthLee]

Three Votes on Three Pages. Seems to be trying to get a bandwagon started by hook or by crook.

That is . . . exactly what I am doing.

Tell me, what's wrong with getting a bandwagon? They generate information on where people stand on various players. Information is good.

It's an interesting tactic. It's one that I don't subscribe to, and have found many scum in the day because of day 1 vote-hopping. Basically, I view it as one of two things.

• You're actually trying to get conversation started.
or...
• You're trying to get someone lynched... anyone but yourself.

Because my read on you isn't as strong as it is on Prana, my vote hasn't switched hands. It was more of "3 votes in 3 pages, getting the word out there for all to read." and letting you know that I was looking at you.

[LoudmouthLee]

Lee, I picked you solely because you already had two votes on you, absolutely no other reason, at that time I had no clue if you were town or scum, just the knowledge I could get some info from not just yourself, but from others who might choose to hop on the wagon.

CA, what's wrong with a bandwagon? Nothing in essence, but there has to be a reason, throwing your vote onto absolutely everyone is helping nobody, for one you're not building a wagon by changing your vote so often because it isn't hanging around long enough to create a possible wagon. For two you've announced by your own hand that your ENTIRE reason for doing so is to find where people stand on various players... well you can not only do that without wagonning absolutely everyone, but by announcing what you are doing, you have destroyed it's effectiveness.
...

This is coming from the guy that posted the 3rd vote in me when the game was 6 posts old! There's nothing wrong with a bandwagon if there was a reason.... I find significant holes in your logic here.

[LoudmouthLee]

Outdated? Hardly. The only reason I had brought up the "good old days" was that, on page one (and if you would have read that, you would have seen it), I was being semi-bandwagoned for typing in "Random Vote."

There. Now that I read for you, need a spoonfeeding too?

[LoudmouthLee]

Leech, I have a feeling that we're gonna be close friends.

Even back when I was playing regularly, the 3rd vote wasn't a strong scumtell... I like looking at voting patterns, and I used to be pretty good. (Way back when, I did win a scummy). I'm nowhere near where I was.

I first need to apologize to you (and I hope you enjoyed my sarcastic opening), as I guess I just felt attacked from the get-go from something that was out of my control, and I overreacted. My spoonfeeding comment was rude, and I humbly offer an apology.

I need some time to reread everything (as I seemed to miss a lot of posts) and will do so tomorrow. For now, to answer the question posed..

LML...what does being one of the more active posters (not me obv) indicate to you? Is it scummy? Townish? Null?

The answer to that is none of the above. It's a non-tell that actually gets over-posters lynched based on the fact that they're saying more. The more someone posts, the more someone can pick apart what they say and spin it.

[LoudmouthLee]

Alright, Lateralus, I'll move you down the suspicion list now that you've explained yourself. I just wanted to highlight it to begin with until you had a change to respond.

Dalt,
Korashk,
CA,
LmL,
Prana,
Lat,
Everyone else.

Before I continue with a large post 9as I will only get a chance for one post today... I would like to mention that this is Nexus's "suspicion" list, yet his vote is currently levied on me, 4th on his list. This screams of blustering at fellow scum but not voting for them. You can call it OMGUS if you feel like it. I say it's worthy of a vote.

Unvote: PranaDevil

Vote: Nexus

Longer post upcoming.

[LoudmouthLee]

Right. I think you're being far too harsh on me, and it's quite unnecessary. I don't really are about how suspicious you are about me, you're wrong.

I'm going to go through the posts in order, if I repeat information, tough. Hopefully I pick up something that someone's missed.

dalt's first vote against Saga would've been an OMGUS vote, as saga voted for him on the first page.

LmL posted his "roleclaim" as Vanilla Townie. Did he realise it was a joke?

However, fitz also seems to have missed iam's joke, although he didn't go as far as "roleclaiming." I don't understand why he's not read the OP, but that may have been an accident or not really realised.

Korashk updated the votecount for no reason...it didn't really need to be done. And again. He says "I like having that information readily available..." why not just have it on his computer in notepad or excel? Buddying up/coaching? It's possible.

I dunno whether it's suspicious that Commie's asked for a replacement. Maybe he thought he wouldn't be able to play scum very well? So, it'll be interesting to see what his replacement does.

LmL then takes his random vote off of PranaDevil, and then...puts it back on again. Really really no need to highlight that, unless he's desperate to start a lynchwagon. It's still partly an OMGUS vote, and he doesn't really give a decent reason for it not to be, which is silly.

PranaDevil does contradict himself-he wants to create a wagon on LmL, but he doesn't like a wagon on him that CA's just voted for him, on the same reason he got on the LmL wagon that I started. Which makes me think it's too close to home for him, otherwise he wouldn't be so defensive. He's saying that CA said outright he was getting a wagon going, but PranaDevil himself said he was simply voting LmL at the start "Because I felt like getting a wagon going." Him and CA argue about it for almost a full page, and don't really come to a satisfactory conclusion.

CA moved his vote from LmL, despite the fact he wanted a wagon to get on...and one was starting.

The fact that xite was being a bit of a troll by refusing to tell people what was scummy in my post was quite pointless-it was just distracting people. Maybe playing games with the rest of the players is a way to distract us?

Also, xite says I'm second most suspicious, but is on my ass the most. So, it's bordering on tunnelling.

This point's gonna be trouble causing, but: Post #98. Is it scum telling scum that they're here for them. It probably isn't, and I'm picking up on nothing, but something worth looking at.

Lat hasn't posted yet. He last logged in a couple of hours ago, so why hasn't he posted in here?

Not really much else I've got to say. Xite probably will say it's not good enough.

Re: Point 3. If I don't post, then that's scummy too. I dunno what else to say. I've tried to give some information, which is what I typed as I read posts.

To firstly answer your questions, Nexus...

I claimed vanilla townie as tongue in cheek as the response to the bandwagon. I didn't quite know what other types of information they were looking for.

Nextly, I "removed the random vote" since so much emphasis (or at least, in my own mind) was placed on it pg 1. I was letting everyone know that I felt, at the time, there was a case for Prana. I, currently, like the case on you much better.

As for you, you have some major inconsistencies, post to post, with your view on some people. For instance:

CA. He didn't take kindly to the wagon. However, not that suspicious.

Dalt,
Korashk,
Lat,
CA,
LmL,
Prana,
Everyone else.

Just a little surprised to where you rank CA on your list, where, a few posts before, he "wasn't that suspicious."

I'm just getting quite a vibe from you. I'm really leaning towards Prana and CA looking scummy because they're overposters, that Nexus is scummy based on inconsistent behavior, and Dalt may very well be his scum partner that he would be throwing under the bus to clear his name for the rest of the game. I've played that way in a Normal Game here before.. and it worked.

I like the vote on Nexus, and I think that the most of you should follow. We can lynch Dalt tomorrow.

[LoudmouthLee]

Eh I'm still kinda new to this site (Played 3 games, all of which I replaced out of) but aren't those lists anti-town? It's good to know who you're suspicious but I don't really see how they actually help the town catch scum. Plus scum could use them as a tool to decide who to night kill in order to frame someone.

Well xite asked for a list, so I thought I'd give him an updated one.

LmL, that's because my vote's still there to see how you reacted. Also I sort of forgot I hadn't unvoted. You say it's not OMGUS but to me it still slightly smells of it, so now I'm keeping it where it is and waiting to see your long post.

To see how I reacted to your vote? It's the only one on me. That smells an awful lot like a lie.

[LoudmouthLee]

A vendetta against you? Get over yourself.

Currently (and this could change), there's not so much suspicion on me. Actually, the first time I even brought up your name was a mere 3 posts ago. Otherwise, you were largely ignored. Why is that? Because you did something really scummy, which I pointed out.

Why don't you explain your lists again. Explain why CA is so high on your list, but "not really scummy" according to a previous post.

Let's go.

[LoudmouthLee]

PS: Nexus, I don't even know who you are! You're a goon. You wanna know who I have a vendetta against? Mr. Flay. He and I go way far back, and that's a true vendetta. You're just really defensive... maybe even worse than me.

[/rant]

[LoudmouthLee]

Explanation: I shouldn't have said "Not that suspicious." I re read again after I had posted that, whilst I was making the list, and realised he was more suspicious. I should've amended what I had written, but I didn't. For that, I apologise.

Why the random Flay related rant?

Either way, no matter where CA is, I think that dalt and Korashk are more suspicious, and am waiting for them to answer.

So, then... What's your case against CA? I'm curious to what you saw that was more suspicious in that matter of time.

The Flay rant is in response to your "Vendetta" comment, which was absolutely ridiculous. I didn't even know you existed until a few days ago, and Prana has a much better case than you do. You were jumpy, defensive, and there are still inconsistencies and holes in your story. I await more.

Until then, my vote stands. I hope others follow suit.

[LoudmouthLee]

Also, "Until then, my vote stands. I hope others follow suit."

That really strikes me as scummy as it's like "look, vote Nexus. I'm right, listen to me!" it's really insistent.

That's me. Love me or hate it, it's who I am. I find it cute you trying to turn this around on me. Adorable. I;m gone for the rest of the day and spotty over the weekend. I'll be here more on Monday. I'll check in every now and again.

[LoudmouthLee]

My wife welled at me, and we were 30 minutes late to the party we were supposed to go to because of my mafia posting. So, not only do I get it from her, I have to get it from Xite, too? Feh.

Yes, when I said that Nexus was ignored, it was because he hadn't tripped my scumdar yet. I still feel that Nexus hasn't substantiated any of the points brought against him yet. And yes, I meant he was throwing Dalt under the bus. Did I say the wrong name before?

I threadclogg'd because of Nexus's ridiculous Vendetta post. I apologize, and won't promise I won't do it again. it's kinda how I am.

[LoudmouthLee]

Did you miss the part where Iam stated, rather blatantly, that he wasn't really joking and he was hoping to catch scum not paying attention? Which makes me wonder. Iam, if you posted that for the reasons you did, how is it I haven't seen you question this:

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

You claim to have been seriously trying to catch scum off guard, and someone actually posted a comment that fits the bill. Oddly enough, I haven't seen you mention it a single time. If those were really your intentions, why didnt you pursue them when someone did react in the exact manner you described? Clearly with the people laughing at your proposal before Havingfitz replied, that is an indication that he posted before reading the comments about your suggestion being funny. Not reading the thread before you post brings up an entirely new area that you could have pursued. Instead of doing any of this, you just dismissed your idea. I don't see why you'd go to the lengths to actually attempt that gambit just to abandon it so quickly.

But I didn't think that; I was fully aware of the setup. My thought was that there was a pretty good chance that at least one person wouldn't be, and therefore some chance that a scum player would be one of those people, and therefore a minute chance that by encouraging an immediate massclaim, we could trick a scum into outing themselves straight away by claiming a power role.

Well, we didn't get that, and if you don't know what mountainous mafia is... shame on them However.. we got... "something", and if anyone wants to metagame this player (as I know nothing of his playing style), please do so..

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

Could be a joke (especially if HF is that type of guy), but could also be careless. I haven't made a decision on it yet, so

Minor FoS: HF

as a quick aside before bed, I brought this up on page one with no response from anyone.

FoS: CA

Here's what I notice so far: We're currently attacking a non-posting Dalt.

Mod, can Dalt be prodded? He is needed here.

He either needs to explain himself or be replaced. I do feel that the "scumtell" on him is currently very weak, and people are looking to push for a lurker lynch.. Or a newbie lynch. Either which way... I don't like that play right now.

Some random questions to be posed to some people...

@Nexus: You still say you find people scummier than I am, and we're well passed the RVP. Your vote on me is still very curious (with your I forgot and i wanted to see how you reacted.) Well, you saw how I reacted, and you see how everyone else seems to be reacting. I'm curious how this is all part of your master plan. So, rook... you're move. What's next? Your vote is on me, and I'm curious to why you haven't voted for people you found SCUMMIER.

@Leech: Do you find HF's post a scumtell, or do you find CA's lack of a response a scumtell? Or do you find them both nulls?

@CA: Much has been said that you've retracted your amount of posts while under heat. To be fair, I've been so wrapped up with how scummy Nexus is, that I hadn't bothered to follow up my FoS of you. With that being said, I would love for you to explain what you think of HF's post, and other questions posted of you in thread. If you need post numbers, I will be happy to oblige.

Oh yeah.. @Xite, Scumlists are a nulltell... generally (IMHO), unless they change drastically from post to post. It looks like someone is trying to throw a rock around until someone gets beaned.

[LoudmouthLee]

That scumlists are generally a null tell, but when they change from post to post (as in this case), they can be a scumtell.

[LoudmouthLee]

Sorry, late here. Yes, it's been going on forever. I think, personally, that in general, it is a null tell. However, in this case, I think there's merit to it.

[LoudmouthLee]

Oh Hai! I'm a moron.

Yeah, what I meant (and yes, it's 2:15am and I'm way too old to be up this late) is that when someone changes a scum-list that quickly (as I checked before, it was within 2 posts of each other) it seems like the changer of the list is looking to find someone, anyone, to start a bandwagon on. The change in the list of names represented by Nexus throwing a rock.

Dude, I'm tired. leave me alone.

[LoudmouthLee]

He listed CA as not that suspicious, yet is 3rd on his list?

[LoudmouthLee]

Happy Monday everyone! It looks like we're going to need to replace 2 (and possibly 3!) players in Saga, Korashk and Dalt (I'm sorry, but one line isn't going to do it.. about how long the days are.) For now, I'm going to metagame and play some WIFOM. If you have an issue with this post, realize that it's purely speculative and I['m throwing it out to the collective consciousness.

[meta] When a newbie comes into a game, the hardest role for them to play is indeed vanilla townie. They become bored with the game, having no night actions and lose all sorts of interest in the game. I've seen it in Newbie games before. People don't like being Vanilla. They'd rather be a cop, or a vig, or scum, or a doc. They'd rather be someone. With that being said, Dalt, IMHO, isn't doing a job of "Lying low because he's scum." I think he's "disillusioned because he's not an interesting role." I do reserve the right to change this later, but for now, I'm not comfortable with a Dalt lynch. [/meta]

Saga has not given me enough of a read to go further, and the fact that he won't be here until Friday will definitely screech the game to a halt. The one that really boggles my mind is Korashk, who was active and was also coming under some major fire. That "request of replacement" really makes me wonder, quite a bit. It's something to keep an eye on.


@Leech I confused CA and IAM. Sorry about that. So, to reiterate, did you find IAM's non-reaction to HF to be a tell of any sorts?
@Lat: I let the thread know that I was going to be away, primarily for the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really question him yet. It'll happen. Sometimes, Lat, you just got to let them talk. When they don't feel threatened, the scum tends to slip up more than when they're on guard.
@IAM: Do you have a pro-town read on "Poor old Nexus"? Is it just the immense shift in posting style that you're attributing to Newb-ness rather than scum-ness? I'm not sold yet.
@CA: I think we're on the same Dalt page. I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all? I did find it interesting that you liked the points thrown out at nexus, and in the same post, voted for Korashk without even an FOS of Nexus. Do you think that Nexus is pro-town or anti-town? Why?
@Nexus: Something I've noticed is the mafia buddying-up play, where a scum merely mimics the mindset of someone that scum knows is pro-town. Do you think that your "list"

could be seen

as buddying up? (Note: I wasn't asking you if you were buddying up. I'm asking if, separating yourself from the situation, that someone could look at both of yours and XCite's lists and think that you were "following him.")

[LoudmouthLee]

Posting from my droid, so please pardon if this post is of the shorter variety...

FoS: Xite

I find it somewhat suspect that you unvoted the current voteleader onto someone without a bandwagon at all. You haver defended Nexus quite a bit, and if Nexus turns up scum, it could very easily be seen as a link. (I do think that Nexus still has not done enough to gain the benefit of the doubt here.

As for dalt, I would expect him to be an overposter if he's used to short days, not an underposter. I just don't think he's interested in posting analysis.

[LoudmouthLee]

I don't know if anyone saw, but yesterday was my 30th birthday. There has been some celebration, and I was completely unavailable. I should have posted that. Give me a few minutes, and I'll do a complete read from my last post.

[LoudmouthLee]

Pardon the multiple quotes, but since I'm like 3 pages behind, I thought I would do this stream of consciousness style:

[quote="Lat]"Vote:"
"Random Vote:"

Eh last time I checked you weren't supposed to add the word "Random" before you vote. Regardless of wether it was valid or not it makes sense as to why Dalt was confused. And the vote bolding Dalt simply did what PranaDevil told him to. Unless I happen to die, get blinded, or have no internet access you can expect me to be here. [/quote]

Do you really believe this? This seems like (a) you're making an excuse for Dalt's confusion and (b) Rationalizing something that doesn't need rationalization.

I have gone on really feel like the Dalt play was a red-herring, and it has really dominated the post-waves for a while.

If dalt doesn’t get any traction soon I will switch to Korashk. Llamafluff if a good player who can probably sweet talk out of korashk's bad play…but in terms of D1 suspicions I think that player slot would be a good lynch. I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much

I'm going to do something I didn't think I'd do... I'm gonna

Unvote: Nexus, Vote: HF

Firstly, I dislike his continual push to get Dalt lynched under the "lynch all liars" guise. Especially when he didn't push Nexus in the same way when Nexus obv. lied about the "I forgot my vote was on you and I wanted to see how you reacted." and HF didn't call for Nexus's head in the same way.

Secondly, I know how some people found HF's opening quote to be a nulltell, and some people found it town-ish. I found it scummy. Here's the quote and my explaination:

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

I don't know HF enough to metagame, but considering this to be a mountainous game (and it obviously is, checking out the title of the thread), his lack of knowledge of the game is inexcusable. To me, this felt so wrong, and it did at the time, which is why I kept on bringing it up.

BTW Llama…do you play on this sight under any other names?

Why does this even matter?

So, you abandon your case on Dalt for this. You list one parroted reason, and an OMGUS against Llama, but state it's "primarily for Korashk's play" when you never state specifics on.

Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time.

I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town)

And yet, you were standing with the flag, waving it up and down, looking to lynch all liars. This was a weak case, and to me, you look like scum looking to bully.

[LoudmouthLee]

Pardon the multiple quotes, but since I'm like 3 pages behind, I thought I would do this stream of consciousness style:

"Vote:"
"Random Vote:"

Eh last time I checked you weren't supposed to add the word "Random" before you vote. Regardless of wether it was valid or not it makes sense as to why Dalt was confused. And the vote bolding Dalt simply did what PranaDevil told him to. Unless I happen to die, get blinded, or have no internet access you can expect me to be here.

Do you really believe this? This seems like (a) you're making an excuse for Dalt's confusion and (b) Rationalizing something that doesn't need rationalization.

I have gone on really feel like the Dalt play was a red-herring, and it has really dominated the post-waves for a while.

If dalt doesn’t get any traction soon I will switch to Korashk. Llamafluff if a good player who can probably sweet talk out of korashk's bad play…but in terms of D1 suspicions I think that player slot would be a good lynch. I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much

I'm going to do something I didn't think I'd do... I'm gonna

Unvote: Nexus, Vote: HF

Firstly, I dislike his continual push to get Dalt lynched under the "lynch all liars" guise. Especially when he didn't push Nexus in the same way when Nexus obv. lied about the "I forgot my vote was on you and I wanted to see how you reacted." and HF didn't call for Nexus's head in the same way.

Secondly, I know how some people found HF's opening quote to be a nulltell, and some people found it town-ish. I found it scummy. Here's the quote and my explaination:

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

I don't know HF enough to metagame, but considering this to be a mountainous game (and it obviously is, checking out the title of the thread), his lack of knowledge of the game is inexcusable. To me, this felt so wrong, and it did at the time, which is why I kept on bringing it up.

BTW Llama…do you play on this sight under any other names?

Why does this even matter?

So, you abandon your case on Dalt for this. You list one parroted reason, and an OMGUS against Llama, but state it's "primarily for Korashk's play" when you never state specifics on.

Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time.

I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town)

And yet, you were standing with the flag, waving it up and down, looking to lynch all liars. This was a weak case, and to me, you look like scum looking to bully.[/quote]

Mod, please delete the incorrectly parsed/quoted post above this one. Thanks.

[LoudmouthLee]

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

Why does TW's mafia experience matter, even a little bit? This is an obvious play to discredit another poster.

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm really leaning towards Prana and CA looking scummy because they're overposters

Do you not see any significance in the fact that CA conspicuously stopped being an overposter as soon as he came under pressure?

Also quoting this unanswered question as reference material for LML in answering that last question.

I missed this, and reread my context.

At the beginning of the game, Prana, CA and myself were all overposting contrary to the rest of the players. With that being said, I was afraid that my two biggest targets (Prana and CA) were both targets in my head because they were overposting, and I didn't see enough from the remainder of the people.

And forgive me. I came back to MS because I saw there was a mountainous game. I, personally, new the lexicon, and again, am I the only one who reads opening posts?

To me, a mafia game, when you're PRO-TOWN is about acquiring as much information as possible. When you scumhunt, you look for inconsistencies in stories, roles, etc. Things that don't seem to fit in place. With that being said, the opening post of any game has tons of information that the typical pro-town player NEEDS to be aware of. In this case, THE ENTIRE DAMN SETUP.

With that being said, HF's reaction was one of "I have a power role." That's MY opinion.

[LoudmouthLee]

And once more for good measure!

Why is lack of knowledge a scum tell?

Because the information was readily available for us in the opening post. That's why.

I hereby ask you, honestly. Look back at this game. Be honest with the situation. Did you know that there were 2 goons and 10 townies before you posted? I sure did.

[LoudmouthLee]

I need to reread and post something of merit, but I'd like to make one comment, which I'm sure will get me tons of FoS's, but it's what I'm thinking....

It's becoming completely evident to me that people are citing "Gambits" as way of describing behavior that could be seen as scummy.

So far, it's PranaDevil, Nexus, CA, Xite, and more!

[LoudmouthLee]

LML case on me is crap and I'm not caring for his game iirc. I need to look at him closer. My suspicions for scum right now are focused on tw, llama, LML, and CA or Prana (though definitely not a CA-llama combo or a prana-tw combo).

If this doesn't scream OMGUS, I don't know what is. I made my case against you. I made my points, and if you don't like them, I don't understand why that's scummy. I'm absolutely not the only one who's suspicious of you. In other words, suck it up and deal with it.

To those getting suspicious of tw...does that change the way you view dalt's play?

No! Jesus christ, he made 3 posts, none of them had any merit at all. Honestly, regardless of how TW flips if he/she is lynched, I still hate the way you played it. It screams scum to me. The fact that you're STILL bringing up Dalt's play makes it seem ever more like a bussing situation, and how you're trying to gain sentiment by a Dalt/TW lynch.

TW has flip-flopped his/herself. And it truns out (Metagame/WIFOM moment) that instantly, TW was happy with me, and the second that I started attacking HF, Her suspicions on me elevated.

As of right now, I'm comfortable with an

Unvote

,

Vote: Tomorrow Wendy

, but trust me, HF, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

(In other words... I think HF and TW are scum together right now.)

[LoudmouthLee]

Wow. WTF Wendy? I cannot envision a pro-town player ever voting for themselves, even in jest. Frustration could be played much better than this.

Confirm Vote: TW

I will say this again, this does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that if TW flips scum, that HF is a town player. I think it's the opposite.

[LoudmouthLee]

But I'm with LmL on this one. Wendy's been pushing pointless topics since she entered, has jumped over anyone who so much as looks in her direction and given no true solid reasoning for her actions, while continuing to flog a dead horse when it had died prior to her entering the game.

unvote; vote: tomorrow wendy

I found it just as damning that I was looking at HF, and all of a sudden, TW didn't like my points anymore. She actually BACKTRACKED and on points that she agreed with at first, she's now finding scummy. Time for a lynch.

you never seen it before LML, ever?

I have seen it MUCH more often with SCUM voting themselves to end conversation on a given day, not Pro-Town players voting themselves for no reason.

[LoudmouthLee]

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.
I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.
havingfitz voted for me.
unvote, vote: havingfitz

Most fishy thing in the game so far, definitely stood out to me.
somethign to consider. If h.fitz is telling the truth about not knowing that setup was open, is that ignorance more likely to be town or scum? Town with vanilla role pm would be looking for any clue as LML just said. Ignorant scum would know that he is on team of two in a twelve player game. Would he assume multiball game with two teams of two against a town of 8 with powerroles?

You seem to have a pretty "clear" read on me and Fitz without having read that carefully... hmmm

replacing an inactive player by being as active as possible should help balance the information inconsistency as presented so far.
I'm doing the best I can.

trying to be more careful, I only got two pages in. My PBPA analysis.
8 - iamausername calls for massclaim. Gives order for massclaim, claiming that random.org gave order. No proof of randomness given.
9 – Prana (first to claim on iamausername’s massclaim list) states that iamausername post was not a serious post. Does not claim. No evidence that he understood the setup from first post.
10 - dalt states that this is his first game, asks to be briefed on game stuff.
12 – iamausername reiterates that his massclaim request is serious
13 – LML demonstrates that he does understand first post game setup, but gives explaination that would prevent a possible scumpartner from falling for iamausername’s gambit. SCUMTELL
16 – LML claims vanilla townie.
20 – Saga accuses LML of being overdefensive. It stands out, but I’m not sure how to parse this.
22 – h.fitz demonstrates ignorance of setup, and understanding of LML’s prior two posts (I didn’t retain this during my intitial read). Accuses iamauser of rolefishing.
23 – Xite gives h.fitz ready made defense of “Do you even read mod-posts?”
24 – h.fitz does not deny reading mod post, glibly states “Apparently as well as iamausername ” so that his error will be associated with iamausername’s alleged failure to read the mod post.
25 – Korask offer vote count. Doesn’t like random voting (newbie tell?) Observes that “username didn't realize that this game was all vanilla, probably an innocent mistaske but I'm keeping my eye on him/her” without questionaing why imausername thought that a massclaim was a good idea. D1 massclaim is utterly against mafiascum.net site meta. Gets caught up in what I feel is nonsense LML “overdefensiveness” drama regarding random voting.
29 – Korask offers random vote for CA, offering proof of randomness

that doesn’t actually prove randomness.

(failed to notice this during initial read) SCUMTELL
31 – Korask offers votecount
32 – iamausername offers explaination for massclaim gambit. Gambit was spoiled by LML, in my opinion. I wish that I could point to someone that demonstrated awareness fo gambit and played along with it, because that would be a town-tell in my eyes.
33 – dalt incorrectly votes for sage. Fails to use proper formatting. If I didn’t know his alignment I would be suspicious of him pretending to be incompetant.
38 – commieB demonstrates failure to comprehend iamausername’s massclaim explaination as well as setup reveal in initial mod post. Claims that early claim of vanilla townie is not scummy, then claims vanilla townie.
40 – LML rationalizes vote for Prana, states that he got “something” on iamausername. What did you get on him LML? States that vote by Prana is scummy because it is third vote on wagon. Why is that scummy?
42-45 exchange between parana and sage that made my eyes glaze over. Did anyone else get anything out of it? I failed to parse it.
46 – LML accuses Saga of answering for someone (who?), coaching, asks for more votes on Prana.
47 – CA disagrees on third vote being scummy, but goes alogn with LML and votes for Prana in the interest of gettign a “healthy” bandwagon going.
48 – Prana unvotes LML, and states that his vote on LML was an insincere puch to get scum to vote for LML. Says that it didn’t work. Fails to state why he thinks that LML was town, or why his plan didn’t work.

There, Lat.

[LoudmouthLee]

dalt54321/tomorrow wendy

dalt is useless, and I believe he'd have been equally useless as either alignment. Nothing to go on there.

tomorrow wendy is Adel. Since he is not massaging my ego in an attempt to influence my vote, I assume he is town, because he knows I'm easy. Done.

Other General Comments:

My level of suspicion on wendy has decreased by a fair amount, thanks in part to iau's link.

Really? I felt that IAM's case on Wendy was marginal, at best. Considering that some people (and yes, I don't have an Adel meta) play with alts differently than they do under a different name.

FoS: NightWolf

[LoudmouthLee]

Xite wagon is looking like it is made of town.

Vote Count:
tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, PranaDevil, Leech, havingfitz
Llamafluff -2- ConfidAnon, Nexus
Xite91 -2- Lateralus22, Nightwolf
ConfidAnon -2- Llamafluff, iamausername
No Lynch -1- tomorrow wendy

Not Voting: No one

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch (pre-deadline)!

TW is town. Lat, Wolf and IAU are also probably town (in order of decreasing strength of read). I want to tag PD on the end of that list but gut is not letting me.

Considering you basically posted the same thing twice (yay, redundancy.) Your post looks an awful lot like fluff.

Questions for you:

1) Why/How do you have Town reads on TW, Lat and Wolf?
2) Since you feel the Xite wagon is a town wagon, What is your read in Xite?
3) Your vote is CA right now, do you feel it's best placed there?

and finally...

4) If you have a pro-town read on Xite, aren't you afraid of the scum jumping on at some point as a mislynch? If you have an anti-town read on Xite, why aren't you voting for him?

Your post seems to smell of blustering... almost making a comment to see how it'd fly.

[LoudmouthLee]

What do LML and CA thank of nolynch?

Mathematically, a NL is a good play. However, the timing of the NL doesn't quite matter as long as it's before LyLO. I don't personally think that a D1 No-Lynch is practical here, especially since there is information and voting patterns that could be of incredible help when someone's alignment flips, along with the inherent Night Kill.

With that being said...

Prana, please note h.fitz trying to engage a deeper conversation about

Day2 nolynch

before you throw a yellow card at me for asking for LML and CA's opinions.

I specifically asked LML and CA because I believe that both of them are experienced enough to know that nolynch is optimal, and their silence on the subject is interesting since my advocacy for nolynch is being used as a scum-tell against me by a couple of players.

I don't think your advocacy of a NL is a scumtell, I think your votehopping is a scumtell. I don't think a NL is even on my radar right now, although it will be later on to increase mathematical odds. However...

Mafia is

not a game of mathematics

. Your math basically is a call to entertain the thought of random lynches. By using logic (for instance.. the quoted text is a typical logical fallacy called Argument from Authority.) we can engage in educated lynches, thereby increasing the mathematical odds.

I'm in five games at the moment, and in a few of them, this one included, I'm not that engaged in the game. I would love to change that though, just not sure how to get back into it.

I think no lynch is good later down the road, but not for day 1.

While I take IAM's "lynch craziness" with the lulz it was supposed to derive... your lack of substantial posting in this game since the beginning looks an awful lot like lurking rather than actively scumhunting. If I didn't like the TW lynch so much, and had HF next (or first, for that matter), I would be pulling for a CA lynch like crazy.

@CA: Make a case on someone. Please. I want to have something to read from you.

@ LmL:

I'm not sure if I understand what you're getting at or not but I'll attempt to respond anyway:
Not so much iau's case on wendy as just the idea presented with the link. When I first saw that wendy was an experienced player, I looked back at his posts with that knowledge in mind thinking that I would find him scummier since nothing could be written off to newb-ness. Instead, I found some of wendy's scummy actions to be a bit too obvious for a player that knows what they're doing, even (and perhaps, especially) if they are acting the part of newb at the time. Once I saw iau's link, the idea of being deliberately scummy to draw out predators fit what I saw with some of these more obviously scummy actions to me.

I'm still shocked at the number of people who continually forget the main rule of Occam's Razor. Paraphrased, the simplest solution is generally the correct one. Instead of saying "TW/Adel must have been running a gambit", why can't we say "TW/Adel was incredibly scummy, has numerous cases pressed against him/her, ans should be lynched." Instead, you go out of your way to include a NEW ASSUMPTION about the situation. (Adel would NEVER play like this as scum. It's too obvious.)

Your necessity to defend in that way is a mark against you, IMHO.

1) Or because they seem to be a little less... involved... with the game? Also, it's not a scumtell that you suggested it, it's a scumtell that you're STILL pushing it, and you didn't start pushing it until you had a lot of pressure on you.

I wouldn't quite consider me "uninvolved", especially with a comparison to CA. While I don't think this was a complete try to undermine any pull of what I'm saying, it seems incredibly awkward to put me in the same boat as CA. Especially since, as of this post, I will have posted 40 times, which is on the upper-half of the post count list for all players. Prior to this, I had not found you any scummier than most, but this comment gave me pause.

Okay. That brings me up to date, for the most part.

Here's how I feel, in a nutshell.

I still like the TW vote for reasons previously listed. The HF wagon went nowhere, and since it probably won't go anywhere, we can talk about that another day. I don't feel a CA lynch would give us any information about other's alignment right now, yet I feel an Xite lynch WOULD. However, I currently do not believe that Xite is scum, which is why my vote isn't on him.

I still like the TW play today.

[LoudmouthLee]

and the more I think about it...

[quote="LML's completely MetaGaming so you can feel free to ignore this.]

Dalt's first incorrectly parsed vote was on Saga, who is Nightwolf now. In the stone age, it was commonplace for new scum to vote their partner out of the gate as a way of 'distancing.' It's odder that Nightwolf currently is defending TW's actions (former Dalt's actions) by playing the "Adel would never do that" card. It also makes me wonder if the Alt was possibly outted on purpose for that rationale. [/quote]

I really want to see TW's alignment.

[LoudmouthLee]

Frick. I wish I could parse.

and the more I think about it...

Dalt's first incorrectly parsed vote was on Saga, who is Nightwolf now. In the stone age, it was commonplace for new scum to vote their partner out of the gate as a way of 'distancing.' It's odder that Nightwolf currently is defending TW's actions (former Dalt's actions) by playing the "Adel would never do that" card. It also makes me wonder if the Alt was possibly outted on purpose for that rationale.

I really want to see TW's alignment.

[LoudmouthLee]

But but but

The reason you feel this is that every fucker is ignoring CA, so it's hard to tell which of them is doing so because he's their scumbuddy. But lynching him would obviously require people to stop ignoring him, so the act of getting him to a lynch would destroy this premise, making it totally invalid as a reason not to lynch him.

Yes, but being so close to deadline (and we really should lynch today, much to the chagrin of Adel), we have only 3 viable targets with votes: TW, Xite and CA. If everyone said.. "Cool. Let's lynch CA." and 4 people jumped, and CA flipped town, it would give us no information about the others. I am willing, however, to play your game.

I think the meta needs to be changed. I have a major problem with it. Town needs to stop acting scummy and say they're running gambits. It's making it much harder for the real townies to find the logic. Not everyone needs to be professor freaking mafia. When the rest of the town doesn't know you're gambiting (as they shouldn't), it can look scummy.

What's EVEN WORSE is that the remainder of the town has been "brilliant gambit, Adel" when... ugh.

I'm truly grossed out by the current meta. Shit's flying now that wouldn't have even been discussed in the past.

[LoudmouthLee]

I am making this post very quickly from my droid, so forgive any mistypes.

Super Confirm Vote: Adel

The use of the scummy awards in this case is a prayer for him to not get lynched by using an appeal that he's a world class scumhunter. The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy at best:

A) Adel is a great scumhunter.
B) Adel thinks CA is scum.
Therefore
C) We should lynch CA?

It doesn't logically follow, even a little bit. Stop blaming Adel's play on a brilliant meta. He's been sloppy. Scum, and if he's protown, he should have his paragon of mafiia hunters badge revoked for making such a mockery of day 1. (Not that this matters, Adel, but I won that same award in '05. That and a dollar gets me a kitkat from the vending machine)

[LoudmouthLee]

I will completely ignore the ad-hominem. Unlike you, I have a pregnant wife, and a life. Sorry Adel, you get what I give you. Sorry. I've been plenty active, and you deserve to hang.

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay, Adel. If you're online right now, let's figure this out. (and yes, your ongoing game has nothing to do with this one. It's been ignored).

Firstly, to justify, my post was indeed erroneous. In my haste, I misread a bit of what you typed, and since I wanted to post a few times BEFORE deadline, please don't make ridiculous accusations about "not being around". I'm here a lot more than other players are (as per post count) and, to be fair, you've posted a shitload of BS in the guise of "gambits". I don't buy it.

Since I replaced in, the most townie players have come to a consensus that Xite will probably be the lynch, his wagon will produce information even if he flips town, his absence from the game will improve the signal:noise ratio, and in my estimation he is more likely to be scum than most other players.

Actually, I'll really have to look at a vote count. It seems to me that you're still the vote leader. It boggles my mind that you can make a misrepresentation of these sorts and expect to not be called on it.

You may have answered this before, but it probably got lost inbetween some of the garbage you posted, but why did you self-vote again? A whole gambit that lasted a post or two?

In regards to the PM real life KMD/Xite, I didn't read it as scummy, and I didn't see it as a modkill ploy. In a game like this (one that seems to be full of strong players), I felt like it was a misguided attempt of explaining. I actually don't like the Xite lynch right now.

I feel the no-lynch play doesn't matter as much as long as it's played, mathematically. The odds do not change, and I, personally, would like to see a flip before a no-lynch is played.

It's nothing against you, but I think you're scum and I will let you know, unless someone comes out and directly says their scum, I'm not moving my vote unless absolutely necessary.

[LoudmouthLee]

Hm, it's nice to see you're serious now tw, and it looks like Prana's getting a little angry.

Prana and Xite, what do the two of you think of each other?

I don't have much to say about the last two pages. A lot of it is just discussion about no lynch and ongoing games. tw don't you think the scum already have a good idea about who they're going to kill, and if we do lynch now that would help the town get information faster and lynch scum faster?

@Lat - Not much to discuss because the discussion is NL (Because of Wendy) and Ongoing Games (because of Wendy).

If you're town, i'm sure you're bubbling over with anger with (a) how Wendy has completely tried to distract the town. and (b) how many of us (myself included) allowed her to do so.

[LoudmouthLee]

By the way, Wendy requested replacement when he thought he was going to be lynched, saw that xite got another vote, and just placed the swing vote. How freaking ridiculous is this?

An appeal to authority to Wendy, since he likes it so much, taken from Glork's signature.

NO PROTOWN PLAYER SHOULD EVER HAMMER THEMSELVES, BECAUSE IT IS PROBABLY THE STUPIDEST THING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO (POSSIBLY ASIDE FROM NO-LYNCHING DAY ONE).

You didn't hammer yourself, instead you voted yourself out of scum frustration. And then you left. Again, out of frustration of being caught.

Please, someone look at what Wendy just did. I have a gut feeling we're going to lose a whole day if we don't make Wendy swing.

[LoudmouthLee]

Unless there's a change, and my math doesn't fail me... tomorrow wendy, after iam voted for xite, unvoted herself and voted for xite, making xite the current vote leader, hence, swing vote.

[LoudmouthLee]

How.... strange.

Dalt/TW/InHim would have been a very strong candidate to be strung up, so to see that TW was the nightkill... very interesting.

Doing a reread, but I have the oddest gut feeling... So, for now,

Vote: Iamausername

, because it never sits well with me when people say that they're likely nightkills. I couldn't get this out of my head the last few days. It doesn't sit right.

[LoudmouthLee]

I do apologize. I haven't had the time for a reread, and I don't like posting "Hey, I'm here. Monkey Butt."

I will have a little bit of time tonight, so expect a post within the next 2-3 hours. Sorry for the delay, guys. Hope I haven't slowed the game at all.

[LoudmouthLee]

My first thought is that people on the Xite wagon would be more likely to kill wendy here, because they'd be taking suspicion after he flipped town, but with wendy flipping town too, the suspicion gets spread around to everyone. But that's still pretty dumb, because clearly the person on the Xite wagon who'd take the most suspicion would be wendy, so they could achieve the same thing by getting him lynched today instead, which would free up their night kill for someone harder to lynch.

My next thought is that it has something to do with his replacement; either someone who is familiar with inHim and thinks he's a particularly great town player, or just someone who likes the way the flow of suspicion has been headed and doesn't want to introduce an unknown element that might disrupt it. So that would suggest someone who's been getting off easy so far.

This quote sticks out for me for my reason that I slightly distrust you. I'll get to that in a hot minute. But first...

Why didn't you mention this at the time I said it?

A major problem I have with mafia, in general, is complete fixation. When I think someone is scum for sure, I get fixated on getting them lynched. Sometimes, I'm wrong. In this case, you weren't on my radar, but I wrote the post number down in my notebook just to re-reference. When Xite flipped town, I marked down every person on the Xite wagon, and then I looked at the information of everyone on that wagon. That's when that post really stuck out on me.

As for your WIFOM post to begin with (that Leech "agrees with", which gives me greater pause), your rationale behind why TW was killed seems disingenuous. My biggest concern is to look at the following things:

Oh yeah, and BTW, Nightwolf, my read on Xite being town was purely gut and I didn't like any of the cases put against him, especially the "purposeful mod-kill" post.

1) My personal view on why TW was killed was to "show" the town that the mafia could have been on either bandwagon. Make no mistake about it... Xite was a better townie, from top to bottom, than TW. Getting him lynched was more important than getting TW lynched. But the way Xite was lynched may have given the mafia pause.

I'm gonna bold this for effect.

My scumsenses tell me that both mafia members were on the Xite wagon.

Looking at this game, I think that the TW kill was to throw the scent off of the Xite wagon, since "both wagons were equally wrong."

Here's the ending vote count.

Xite91 -6- Lateralus22, Nightwolf, Leech, iamausername, tomorrow wendy, llamafluff
tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, PranaDevil, havingfitz, Nexus

Now...

Obviously, Xite and TW were voting each other out of necessity. We can scratch each of them out. HF really pressed for the lynch of Dalt from the beginning. To me, that would be a very dangerous scum move to a townie as such. I am getting, now, a town-feel from him. The same, shockingly, goes to Lateralus. His bravado in getting Xite lynched does not seem like a scum move. Perhaps I'm being way to general here... but i'm getting pro-town vibes there, too.

Leaving myself off this list and the people whom I think are most pro-town, IMHO, the scum team must be a part of Nightwolf (whom I have expressed suspicions before), Leech (his "agreement" with Iam makes me very uncomfortable), Iam (As referenced before... the "i'm a nightkill" and his "magical town read" on Adel, couple that with the semi-lurker CA bus that was tried...), Llama (Swingvote could be seen as scummy. I really need to do a PBPA on him) on the Xite wagon, and Prana (I'm not sold on the Prana case at this point. I think he defended himself well enough for me right now.) and Nexus (who got eerily quiet after his wagon).

I can't shake the feeling that IAM's scum right now.

[LoudmouthLee]

Nexus, I more meant that I found you were posting not as much content, not number of posts. I actually, again, find your reaction overdefensive.. especially since I did say...

(A) I thought both scum members were on the xite wagon... you weren't.
And (b) I made little asides to everyone I didn't get a complete protown read on.

In other words, you've piqued my interest.

FoS: Nexus

[LoudmouthLee]

I think the Xite wagon is town.

Llama, do you still believe that the scum would rather lynch TW than Xite, being that they were both town?

How do you feel about that wagon now?

[LoudmouthLee]

Not quite here for a major post. Will do one tonight. Talk later.

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay, have a few minutes... post incoming.

[LoudmouthLee]

I believe that the Lat/Prana discussion is a very dense read of two townies completely going at each other. Unless something drastically changes, I won't be voting for either of them today.

Well, I still say that we should no lynch. TW proved how it is the correct move to make in this setup, logic and math back it up. People are just conditioned to be way against no lynching at all costs, even when an exception to the rule occurs like this game. I would be very happy with a no lynch today. The conditions are still ok for one, although theoretically it should have occured seven posts into the game.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The math that you're speaking of talks about random lynches without any sort of knowledge. I don't even think you know the math that you're speaking about. It makes me wonder what you're trying to get out of this.

I am pretty sure that Wolf, Lat and now fitz are town. IAU still probably but gut is making me wonder there, as I think the TW kill is either a move from a highly experienced or newbie scum team. I can see a few reasons that TW would be the correct kill for scum.

This type of NK speculation is always very detrimental to town. You're pigeonholing the scum team in one way or the other, and that type of thinking leads townies to their demise. With that,

Vote: Llamafluff

. This would put LF at L-2. IAU still makes me a bit uncomfortable with his actions today, and I will be keeping a bigtime eye on him, too. Continuing...

TW read fairly heavily town. If I think that someone is town, I am going to defend them directly and indirectly. It would be like me calling you scum here for voting Xite when his play was a lot scummier then TWs, a completely subjective accusation.

In a mountainous setup, the only way you're going to have that air-tight of a read in order to defend them to the grave is if you have knowledge of roles (read: Scum). In a regular game, you can get cop vibes, and results can easily give people real reasons to defend someone to the grave. If you were a townie, you woudn't have that read. I know that *I* wouldn't defend anyone to the grave as you are stating.

You've misrepresented you reason for "hammering". You jumped to a NL today, To me, your last few posts have screamed scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

I am pretty sure that Wolf, Lat and now fitz are town. IAU still probably but gut is making me wonder there, as I think the TW kill is either a move from a highly experienced or newbie scum team. I can see a few reasons that TW would be the correct kill for scum.

This type of NK speculation is always very detrimental to town. You're pigeonholing the scum team in one way or the other, and that type of thinking leads townies to their demise. With that,

Vote: Llamafluff

. This would put LF at L-2. IAU still makes me a bit uncomfortable with his actions today, and I will be keeping a bigtime eye on him, too.

And what makes that any different from this?

I'm gonna bold this for effect.

My scumsenses tell me that both mafia members were on the Xite wagon.

Looking at this game, I think that the TW kill was to throw the scent off of the Xite wagon, since "both wagons were equally wrong."

This question is completely fair. I substantiated my statement with rationale... and a whole lot of WIFOM. My statement was more an encapsulation of the Xite lynch rather than the TW nightkill. I felt that the scum would rather see Xite hang that TW hang. The fact that TW was a nightkill made me feel stronger about that.

Mod, speaking of the TW nightkill, Since TW was replaced by inHim, and TW flipped town, why doesn't inHim take the CA role? It's not like TW had any role information that inHim was made privy to.

[LoudmouthLee]

How about you read my response, IAm.

[LoudmouthLee]

I have.

That is an explanation for why your NK speculation is OK, while Llama's is not. Now, what makes Llama's NK speculation worse than when I did it, or when Nexus did it, or when Leech did it?

Can you cite any examples of previous games were you have seen people say they are likely night kills? Can you demonstrate that you have seen this come proportionally more from scum than town?

Why is scumLlama more likely to push for No Lynch in this situation than townLlama?

No, you haven't.

My "NK spec" was myself explaining my reaction to the Xite lynch and the way it went down. As for the citation of previous games, it's absolutely preposterous to think that anyone has the time to sort through the amount of information. I've unvoted you, sir. You're awfully defensive. Seriously.

I really think you haven't been reading, Iam. Check out Llama's reaction to NL compared to his reaction to NL today. Plus, he's singing the praises of Adel in such a way... befriending the dead pro-town is a way to look town when you're scummy.

What is your view on Llama?

[LoudmouthLee]

FoS: HF

, that's a real weak reason to vote at this stage of the game.

Will answer IAM and Nightwolf tomorrow.