Ladies Night -- Game Over

[Ojanen]

/confirm
Low access for a day or two.

[Ojanen]

I am having major access trouble right now. I will be home on Sunday and then it will evaporate. Please don't replace me. I will try to catch up asap but I can't promise much content before Sunday. Sorry.

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm very active when I'm not on the road, I'll make up for this.

[Ojanen]

I'm back, finally. Catch up within a few hours.

[Ojanen]

If someone is contemplating a hammer, let me catch up to the end and post first. (takes an hour from now max)

[Ojanen]

Last few pages of reading were too hurried. Will have to repeat.
Apologies for the extensive V/LA; the wireless was

supposed

to work.

Apok

is scummy. The effort of getting (even invalid) meta is somewhat townish, agree with Hoopla there. But otherwise:

I'm not sure what Hoopla's trying to do here; on the one hand I doubt that scum would give themselves such a high profile so early, but on the other hand her behavior doesn't scream town.[...]
It may possibly be a tactic to motivate discussion, but it seems more likely to cloud logical reasoning with emotion and thus give scum more room to maneuver.[...]
Also, newest Hoopla post came up as I was about to post. Now I'm definitely feeling padding; either try to bring the game out of random stage or don't. I think I'm currently

justified

in casting a

vote: Hoopla.

Underlining mine - interest in justification is overt (as others noted). Furthermore, interest and evaluation of self-justification itself while voting is scummy - all about how you are perceived.
First too passages are almost funny in their emptyness.

Haylen, I'd say your reaction was about a 7. Hoopla, I may possibly be overjustifying, but I frankly think this mucking around with number/rating scales is a big waste of time, and neither you nor anyone else have shown that it is contributing to the game in any way, whether it be random fun or scumhunting.

This retort has something evasive about it too.

On another note, that little interaction between UncertainKitten and Snow_Bunny was...hm, can't say interesting...how about unusual? I don't think this is a scumtell per se, but it almost seemed as if UK were leading Snow. Not FoS-worthy, but I'll keep an eye on it.

fluff fluff fluff and why distort the interaction by mentioning this if she thinks she's onto something.

In 115 she elaborates on what she's looking in the previous interaction, and has also casted a careful, delayed vote on camn. Explains that she wanted to wait for explanation but fails to comment on said explanation - camn being obviously deliberate in buddying whole-heartedly- at all. Associates to tending to appearance again.

Paws

is a moron.
Not opposed to lynch. Wouldn't lynch before claim.
About the mod tell: RedCoyote takes great care of his games and seems like a cool guy - that being said he didn't send mafia copies of town wincon/vanilla pm in a game of his I played in before it caused conundrum. Also he was fairly easy to read as scum in the one game I played with him. Mod intention scanning potentially useful then.
BUT I am unsure of this specific tell being valid; I'm not sure I agree with the logic that it's likely he

wouldn't

have reacted for town self-voting similarly.

Haylen

I have no idea how to read atm.
The problem is that she has adapted a strategy of making a carnival out of negative self-awareness and sincerity/manipulativeness comes across completely bundled out of her posts. Don't know how to proceed with interaction - resorts automatically to self-degrading slipperyness.
Self-absorbed behaviour interlaps with typical scummy mindset but probably in her case it's as both alignments. Aqcuiring vast meta might be useful.
This combo might have something:

@ Sotty - I apologise for not making it clearer. If Paws was an experienced player like yourself and was acting as she is, I would find it suspicious.

I do not find it suspicious for a newbie to do this though. Thus I have a Newb-Town read.

I wrote the first part of the sentence 'I am suscious of paws, but currently have a Newb-Town read' because I remember she was a newbie right at the comma. So I decided to leave what I had written and say if she was experienced I would find it bad.

I said it's gut really.

There's something that made me say bullshit here. I realized it's the bolded being either worded or thought invalidly and not meshing very well with screaming gut, so I'll drop it here to keep in mind.

Sotty7

I had a clear gutread of scum from her early. Later posting is better, but then she's very smart - stil leaning scummy. Possible note to watch out for overlap of female carefulness and scumminess though.

Spoiler: A quote for tone

Hi. Thankfully no, I'm not. Being scum makes me nervous and stresses me out especially recently since people suddenly think I am a scum mastermind. Since we are old battle hardened war buddies wanna tell me if your scum? If you are I'll make your death quick and painless, I promise.

Gut twinge from this, echoing DGB. Unable to elaborate. Something about the tone of the attempt to banter at the end?

I'm not seeing the Apokalyptika hate right now. Maybe it is because I use the word interesting myself, but post 55 just looks like her giving a run down for her thoughts at this moment in the game. I don't get the same tingle as camn and esurio.
I don't mind policy lynches as much in larger games, would prefer if we didn't have to fall back on that tacit however.

Unvote, Vote Paws

Come and play. What are your thoughts on Hoop v Haylen? What's your opinion on policy lynching? Who's scummy to you?

This is soooooo safe. so safe. A little too obvious at that stage of the game for her.
Same problem with post 110. Early posts remind me of my own scumplay. Yeah, that's it.

esurio

is obvtown.

I absolutely agree with so many of

DGB

's gutreads that I call town.

Hoopla

is another strong player; wary of giving too much credit at this stage but leaning town.

I have no complaints about

camn

. She's not obvtown but definitively wouldn't lynch for now, I expect to get a more accurate read with time (at least if access clears) and she's waaaay too awesome to waste.
Liked her change of mind regards vote in first content post. Hoopla-Haylen link thought was weird to me.

cepi

gut town. Need more.

UK

surprisingly no-read for someone so loud for now. Disagree with most of what she's pushing.

Frack, I'm running late with this. Rest of the players covered in a sec.

[Ojanen]

You are correct, my mistake. Sorry. I mixed up something somewhere - too much material to try and process fast. There was a change of stance from newb-town to newb-neutral due to general real life moodswinging, not the gut line.

[Ojanen]

Anyway the rest of the bunch were Sucrose, chauchau and Snow_Bunny. Plus no-read Fenchurch due to the access stuff.
The 3 first would be a decent place to look for scum for me - my D1 nebulous reads often lead to scum. Lots of disagreement and can't really distuinguish them too well without isoing right now.

As for Snow_Bunny, I wasn't voting her because she will or will not lurk, I was voting because she proclaimed herself as a lurker. I have seen it used more for scum purposes then town which is why I'm voting her.

Specifically where did you see it used for scum purposes?

Wow, I iso'd Paws and I must say that there's nothing there. Nine posts of pure nothingness. Seems like someone is active lurking, and let's add the benching, and we have something worthy here. FoS: Paws
However, I prefer my vote on camn now. Her reaction to my vote has caught my attention (a bit too much for a vote so early on, imo), and I like the pressure there.

Just Weird to need the iso; how could she not notice it after the massive attention on every no-content post by Paws? Possibly made up; if so, pure scum.

I don't have much time, so I'll just want to say this before I forget: who's talking about scum-tells? They aren't scum tells, but they sure add together to something in D1. And that, right now, it's worthy of a vote.

Could just be simple though, as is the impression from this post.

Agree with Sucrose pulling the 3 "articulate" suspect names out of thin air while not admitting it - crap right there.

Wouldn't lynch
myself-esurio-DGB-Hoopla-camn-cepi- maybe UK for now - maybe maybe Fenchurch per Hoopla's assessment

Fair game
the rest.

[Ojanen]

Oooh, one more pop in my mind.
Possible townslip: the speculations of coaching. Check tomorrow who it was that engaged in this.
Read the role pms: mafia have daytalk in this game.

[Ojanen]

Possible note to watch out for overlap of female carefulness and scumminess though.

What do you mean by this? Also, I appreciate the comment about being smart, but I don't think we have played together before have we?[/quote]

We played briefly together in RedCoyote's game, you were a town neighbor with someone, the day ended short due to a modkill. I replaced in and got a good scumread for which they immediately nkd me but I followed the game. I have also loosely followed a scumgame of yours.
The overlap comment was a mitigating factor. Some traits are more typical in females as both alignments than in males. Carefulness being one of them.

[Ojanen]

Failtags. Above is a reply to Sotty.

[Ojanen]

V/LA over, though sick. Post either soon or in circa 10 hours. Need to reread the last pages of D1 with less hurry.

[Ojanen]

Hahaha.
I'm doing the read and some tangents. Fever makes my attention span match that of a squirrel's. Haven't been able to get this done the whole day of lying around. But it'll only get harder later.
Anyway, an impostor to share. I thought there was something hauntingly familiar about that cepi guy's style while rereading. Peculiarly. A bit of searching and my hunch was confirmed.
Hi there, tajo.
I still thought his day one reads post looked town but the read has been taken town a notch due to natural advantage in acting butch. Will have to cross-check time stamps with his populartajo and Anon accounts on how much lurking has been going on.

I would hope no one, certainly not someone who has been frequenting the website that long, would be so disrespectful. I didn't do any sort of background checking, investigating, or what have you because I had hoped no one would sink to such a level as to try and sabotage a casual game with innocent guidelines. I'll err on the side of ignorance given that this is just an allegation, and I don't really wish to persue it in any way.

Brahms's Requiem is awesome. It'll power the reread done now.

[Ojanen]

Goddammit I just lost a post and how can this reading be so hard. I wonder if this sensation is akin to drunk posting. Haven't finished yet, will. However impatient to get on with this: Apok needs to die.

I gave some reasons why she's scummy in here earlier. Moreover:

Unvote, Vote: camn

I wanted to give camn a chance to clarify her statements.
By over-the-top scummy, I meant that the buddying was to such an extent that I'm almost not sure what to make of it. For instance:
Mild: "Hm, those players seem to be voting together a lot. Something to keep an eye on."
Medium: "Huh, not only are they voting together, but they attack whoever casts suspicion on either one and defend each other. That's scummy."
Severe:

What camn is doing. It seems too blatant to be scum, but it doesn't seem town either...it's just bizarre.

Also, without DGB here to possibly clarify/give her opinions on what's going on, I feel like I might be getting an incomplete picture. However, I feel that I can't overlook it, hence the FoS and now vote.

This is a scummy mindset.
1. Something unusual happens.
2. Underlined means she can't see real town or scum motivation for it.
3. She concludes that she cannot overlook it and has to find it scummy.
Reminds me of a scumpartner once upon a time (Herodotus in Amished village) with added carefulness due to the delayed vote.

She backs off camn and in 184 switches to Paws (4th vote). What makes it feel very ungenuine is that there has been a fair amount of loud talk on Paws and up until now she has completely ignored all of it. That makes it seem not an actual reaction to Paws, and it's not the stage yet where it would be a reaction to the wagon. In fact the only people she has prior mentioned are camn/Hoopla/Haylen/DGB.

When she backs off camn she says:

So I slept on it, and also I've been a good little girl and read up on some older games of camn's (and Hoopla's) to get some context. I noticed from Medieval Mafia that camn loves policy-whatevering people as town. I also saw a somewhat lesser degree of buddying. My case was not as strong as I had envisioned.

Unvote: camn

In a few hours, I'll make a rather longer post wherein I try to analyze camn and Hoopla deeper, as well as Haylen (who I'm finding rather hard to read at the moment).
(And yes, I'm aware that I am waffling quite a bit at the moment.)

She has gotten at least 3 people quite quickly criticize her vote. She pulls it away right away coming off quite scared (look how she needs to post this before the next post in a few hours, how she says her case wasn't as strong as she had envisioned [language implies slightly subneutral read on camn at best] yet pulls off the vote immediately). There is no intention of looking at Paws yet at this point.
I don't know how to explain this. She's clearly looking for an

acceptable

place for a vote.

Overall, Apok reads as caring massively about what she looks like, being justified and so on. (And still making crap cases.)

vote: Apokalyptika

[Ojanen]

Just saw the mod comment to my post

I would hope no one, certainly not someone who has been frequenting the website that long, would be so disrespectful. I didn't do any sort of background checking, investigating, or what have you because I had hoped no one would sink to such a level as to try and sabotage a casual game with innocent guidelines. I'll err on the side of ignorance given that this is just an allegation, and I don't really wish to persue it in any way.

My intention was not to want him replaced (as long as he doesn't flake, obviously). Just to give people who know him a better shot at reading him. I'll be analyzing him as tajo, I hope that is acceptable. I guess if it makes a difference we can leave it as just an allegation from my part.

[Ojanen]

All right. Finally satisfied with my level of familiarity with the material ITT, finally ready to be someone.

Showing my current work on current assumptions and flips:
Trust: DGB. cepi. Fenchurch.
Confident town lean: camn.
More or less town lean: Hoops. (more) Sucrose. (less)
Don't really know: Haylen. UK. chauchau
Slightly scummy: Sotty.
Conflicted scumread: Snow_Bunny
DIESCUM: Apokalyptika

I have elaborated on Apokalyptika already. It's one of those cases where my gut is hollering scum. I want her wagoned. Really badly.
One question about one of the only conflicted things in this read:

Hoopla: After skimming through a couple games you played, I'm finding you somewhat more suspicious. In Large Normal 105, you were town. In Mini 909 and Mini 865, you were scum.

Please explain to me the exact process on how you went about using these exact games to support your thoughts. I don't understand your process especially when the picture seems distorted. I looked at Hoopla's wiki; it's excellent and up-to-date with neat paragraphs describing every game. Why did you choose to look at these older games; did you sift through some other games too etc.

chauchau, I wish you weren't gone already. I would have given tiny townlove bits on that replacing out post unless this didn't pull it back down:

As for Snow_Bunny, I wasn't voting her because she will or will not lurk, I was voting because she proclaimed herself as a lurker.

I have seen it used more for scum purposes then town which is why I'm voting her.

Specifically where did you see it used for scum purposes?

Proclaiming yourself a lurker is giving yourself wiggle room to fall back on later on in the game.

It is, as I've seen it, far more scum motivated then town. In any instance, you guys need to realize that this vote was placed five pages into the game.

It's not like it was a solid tell. I was still in the midst of questioning others and attempting to get better reads on people. People seem to be over exaggerating the confidence I had in that tell.

I don't like that she wasn't able to give a straight answer on an already nebulous vote.

Haylen posts similarly to this

post later

also in another ongoing a the same minute as here exactly after the string of me catching the daytalk, and her previous post was just a couple of hours before I posted that, and site search seems to point at her being genuinely quite occupied that day and the next. It's totally plausible she didn't read the posts about scum daytalk. The Fenchurch one today is not explained by that, and the mason thing is weird but weird is as far as it goes. Could be Paws-wagon scum but meh. Apok's voting Haylen. I won't join that wagon at the current state of flips and information and assumptions.

@Snow_Bunny

: what is your native language?
Snow_Bunny's incredible insistence on going totally above her head in continuing and continuing to attack camn badly seems on the town side of things (key idea is the going above her head part in argumentation/communication level). That being said, the Paws wagon attitude is scummy. The FoS D1 is terrible as a sudden awakening on noticing the obvious and loud tend on the thread. This:

Ah, it was not nice to not wait me before lynching. I still want camn love, but I'm also interested in how the Paws wagon build so fast. Specially fenchurch's hammer vote.

strikes badly and I want to know specifically what did you want to be waited for?

Sucrose throws one challenge at UK that is either townish or distancing and I'm going with townish for now with hostility continuing from UK to today and all (the one about UK getting pissed). Also some Paws stuff strikes me well. Has been upgraded to townside.

I have cross-checked cepi's activity but not fully yet. At least one V/LA is legit. But he's playing genuine mafia anyway.

Ojanen didn't get NK'd, so clearly, has some inaccurate scum/town reads, but she's a genius.

I went to a laughter-coughing fit at this btw. That's a first.

I wish I didn't have to wall this up but that comes with resolved access problems. Rest of thoughts coming.

[Ojanen]

Fenchurch, your vote chart is really handy. Would you happen to have one for D1?

[Ojanen]

Paws

(8) (Sotty7 - UncertainKitten - Apokalyptika - Haylen -

DrippingGoofball - esuriospiritus - camn - Fenchurch

)
camn (1) (Snow_Bunny)
Apokalyptika (1) (

cepi

)
Snow_Bunny (1) (chauchaudotcom)
UncertainKitten (1) (

Sucrose

)
Sucrose (1) (

Hoopla

)
Not Voting (2) (

Ojanen - Paws

)

Well look at that. The people I think are behaviorally town align perfectly with filling the late wagon, which I agree was a baaad place to move for scum. It's possible I'm not fully conscious at which stage the reads were actually formed but still. Feel good about the reads now.

[Ojanen]

at DGB's change.
I have a problem with Sotty. I'll try to figure out what it is exactly that nags me constantly in her posts. The vote parked on Paws the whole day doesn't help. She just called 6 players out of the 12 she's playing with scummy in her analysis. 2 town. That makes the ratio of the severeness of language drop down a lot for expected consequences to follow. Stuff like saying there's a red flag and that the Apok read went down due to there being " really no excuse" for the meta fail becomes essentially strongish language that has become devoid of expectance of consequences.

cepi is flat out lying about not being tajo, I could give proof. But he's lying town. I will leave this now.

[Ojanen]

Hoopla, my townread on DGB is basically a version of this:

I absolutely agree with so many of DGB's gutreads that I call town.

And I don't mean gutreads only on the level of x is scum, y is town, but the specific comments and bits from people she perceived as telling in one way or another. It's actually harder to see when I try to look at her iso now. I would need the contexts for the references again and it's even possible my feeling was exaggerated. But the feeling came from stuff like iso 2 about Sotty, iso 10, the moment of proclaiming esurio town in iso 13, moment of proclaiming Fenchurch town in iso 17, the reaction to the line from Haylen in iso 1 in degoofed form of slight twinge of town and so on.
Add to that that she voted for Apok today and I was basking in love.

[Ojanen]

I agree that the 2 best wagons are Apok and SB, Haylen is inferior.
More later.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen my vote wasn't on Paws all day. My initial vote on Hoop was actually serious for the time of day I put it there. After that Paws was scummy to me, I'm not about to move my vote all over the place when I have a target in mind.

Oh yes, you voted Hoops 4 hours into the game. 16 hours later you changed the vote to Paws. I was aware of that when I said "the whole day" and I stand by it.
And this reply of yours bothers me a little too.
On what exactly is scummy about what I described: I haven't really figured out what bothers me beyond the very general so I just posted a description of your actions rather than reasoning. I'll tell you if I figure it out and if the gut continues.

[Ojanen]

I used those specific Hoopla games for analysis because the other, more recent ones were less similar to this game (had SKs, different mechanics, more unusual PRs, etc.) and I felt that I would get a clearer read with some more similar games.

Your conclusion was that Hoopla wasn't scared to draw attention to herself as scum early. In your sample of one she was less dramatic as town. For what reason did you discard the descriptions of these 2010 games (town, mini normal):

Mini 973: So, I fakeclaimed Paranoid Gun Owner in my opening post of the game.

Mini 918:
I shot Sotty7 on Page 3 of this game, hoping I would get lucky and hit someone evil to really rattle the mafia early. It didn't work, but it wasn't costly, especially after we lynched scum on D1. What was costly, was me fakeclaiming tracker on my prime target to try and get them to claim visiting the corpse, giving me a free scum kill on D2.

[Ojanen]

Yeah, that Hoops posts shines town.
And it's absolutely true. SB is sticking to an unpopular (and bad) vote and opting to reduce mobility on jumping to either of the 2 rival wagons.
Apok otoh is egging on both other wagons. Softening to a scummy stance on SB, and echoing stuff on Haylen.

camn's Post 381 is something I initially overlooked, and it's an excellent point. I note Haylen hasn't responded to it...Haylen, thoughts?

The 3 points give me creeps. Haylen hasn't posted since camn asked except for this

Dont hammer me until i've posted properly. I will be pissed.

so the function of the reminder is simply to make Haylen look worse.

As regards my meta-searching: I've never actively tried to find meta in players before, and I did a subpar job. I'm well aware that this isn't an excuse, but it is an explanation.

You must have had a reason to discarding those games since you must have seen the descriptions of those games first. I asked to be able to read you and I'd still like to know.

Apok wagon is where it's at, girls. Chop chop.

[Ojanen]

UK - out of curiosity more than anything since I've understood you get hyper as either alignment: is there an element of schtick in you rhetorics or are you genuinely screaming this much at the screen? (third option would be that you're a pirate.) I have much difficulty reading your character.
I have a hard time deciphering where the blow up came here from because the references are vague but

Oh, and then she ignores the fact that I addendumed by saying she was playing like SK in IA II. FURTHER, she absolutely ignores the fact a counterwagon was forming to hers.

I don't really understand. You said Haylen was playing like SK in IA II, what's the relation to the SB read?
In this post 365 is the handy votechart from Fenchurch, which shows that when Haylen got her 2 sticking votes SB only had 1 at the casting of either of them - why was Haylen a counterwagon, why not to Apok etc?

I'm not saying her case is brilliant but I'm trying to see how you find it THE ULTIMATE FUCKTARDERY AND SB SHOULD GO FUCKING DIIIIE RIGHT NOW FOR THIS RAPE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE WORLD.

[Ojanen]

I must say that I like a Snow_Bunny lynch more than I do an Apok one. Most of her points on UK have been quite ridiculous.

Tell me which, and tell me exactly why.

unvote

-this must look very strange coming from my zeal but I have to check something that could be bothersome. Will do that after I sleep.

[Ojanen]

We might not be lynching me, but I'd like people's attention to be focused in the RIGHT direction rather than wasting time on silliness. The more time spent accusing me of things that flat aren't true is the less time spent scumhunting.

And UK yes you still need to chill. I pointed out 2 untrue things from your defence. The 2 other things you overall said were that the Paws quotes should be self-explanatory and various variations of SB being stupid.
You have not pointed out to me what is flatly not true in SB's snippets otoh. Your hate is irrational.
Breathe. Relax. This is Matrix.

[Ojanen]

I also agree that Apok is looking quite bad with the delayed claim.

I think this argument is silly btw. L-1 is the standard claiming time. She never posted while she was on it, which was not for long.
I haven't looked through what was bothering me yet. Mostly because I'm on a terrible mood. Will try to get it done asap because the dynamics are so close to lynch.
@UK: maybe it's just because today is the black today but your

continued

fucking arrogant jerk schtick is annoying me in extreme amounts. You didn't destroy her points. You stated two things that were UNTRUE. They would have held water as a reason for calling SB's points bad IF THEY WERE TRUE.

@Ojanen: But my corrections of them still invalidate Snow_Bunny's bullshitery.

THIS WRONG. It's bullshit. In your language it's... well you can imagine that.
You're only generating general antipathy and clouding my ability to try and read you in a neutral way. Stop it.

That being said, I don't know why SB is voting the way she is. Kinda destroys the thought about her shutting down options.
Damn.
I'll go pour my sasdgrefvgdsz mood to something and hopefully come back today.

[Ojanen]

No, you know what? let's lay this to rest. The Paws behavior explains itself in the quotes, and you're REALLY FUCKING STUPID to try to paint it otherwise.

Oh, and then she ignores the fact that I addendumed by saying she was playing like SK in IA II

.

FURTHER, she absolutely ignores the fact a counterwagon was forming to hers.

So, her entire house of cards, built on the weakest foundations of fucktardery and dumbassery possible, quite simply falls to pieces in the face of actual facts.

Blue and green are your only actual arguments in the whole multipost rant.

Blue correction when I pointed out IA II you were talking about

Haylen

, not her:

...wait, really? Fuck, I got my wires crossed, you're right. In that case, I got one point wrong, but I'll also state that the only reliable knowledge I have of S_B's meta is her playing as scum in Umineko mafia. But, that said, it was indiscretionary of me to say she "plays like she always does", since I hardly have a measure of that.

YOU had said she plays like she always does. You had overstated. I don't know if you expect her to keep tabs of your meta on her or what about this is fucktardery.
Green correction when noted that the actual votes don't work as counterwagon:

As for the counterwagon logic, I think I got sloppy there. Basically, the way the Haylen wagon was building read as a serious effort to deflect from Snow_Bunny, since a lot of people were suspecting her, and I assumed more votes. The votechart didn't bear it out as strongly as I liked, though I also was including camn's prior Snow_Bunny vote. The Apok wagon I'm still trying to make sense of. My gut for some reason says she's town but we'll get a lot of information from her lynch, but I should probably look at the case before I get too far into it.
But, yeah, I think it was more attitudes I was reading as opposed to votes, and there was a slight indication in the votecount I ran with. Confirmation bias, etc.

This is a minuscule amount more legit but only because she didn't mention it in the case in the first place.
The actual counterwagon logic you yourself admit to being sloppy/confirmation biasy.

=>

I notice you don't even try to fix the points I effortlessly destroyed.
Die now.

ARGH.

I do have a problem with white knighting everyone sometimes but this is just annoyance. I am not defending her alignment, just accusations of godiestupid.
Which is basically just noise and counterproductive itself but etc.

[Ojanen]

I got the composed vibe from Apok during the late wagon that she had a claim in her sleeve.
Apok, who did you target last night?
I think the claim is either town or then very shortlived - make sure that noone blocks her tonight and we'll know for certain.
We should lynch someone else.

The reason that I unvoted was that I had trouble seeing scumbuddies from the shape of the late wagon combined with the attacks yesterday. Also from the overall stances of the non-wagoners. But I wanted to check because it's a wide thing to remember accurately.
No, this is definitevely not me being naive about bussing - there are some specific things most often present on a scumlynch. I'll disclose/elaborate if I get under a lot of fire but otherwise rather not in the middle of this game unless I use the tells.

Too exhausted to revise my gameview now.

[Ojanen]

Oh wait. Wow.
There's something....
My reads are all wrong, I think.
I think Apok, SB and Haylen are all town. camn is scum. Wow.

vote: camn

Yes, I'm serious.
I will explain some of this tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

UK is prob town btw.

[Ojanen]

Haylen, make it 2. There was some good stuff in there.

I'd like to add a couple of things to the camn case.
I was so extremely exhausted and miserable today, and then something just totally clicked here.
This is the reason I play mafia. The sudden moments when you reverse your perspective and a moment of clarity happens. it's really cool. decided to give a shot at bringing up some stuff still today.

Look at her vote on Apok D1.

VOTE: Apokalyptika

You are suspect. I want diamonds.

I don't like your voting. It is all about the easiest vote possible.

And I don't like your meta-hunting. I think it is easier to build crapcases with meta. In fact, I have done it myself from time to time.

Blue part: Apok has voted Hoopla, camn and Paws.
Paws is an easy vote, but this is major hypocrisy. Camn is herself has sat on a Paws vote since before Apok. Anyway, what's wrong with policy lynching according to camn who supposedly loves those "easy votes"?
and how is the camn vote easy? camn considers herself very hard to mislynch. She often repeats it - example from this game:

@ All the scum: I am surprised you guys haven't figured this out yet..... I literally can't be mislynched. Stop trying. You are going to have to kill me.

violet part:

But this is nonsense. If you really thought it was 'bizarre' you would simply dig up some meta and all would be explained... But I doubt you will. I think you are just piling on for bandwagons sake... Which is meh. I like bandwagons. I am not worried about getting mislynched right now. I would like to see a better case though!

camn suggests Apok get her meta as a self-defence. When Apok does get camn and Hoopla meta though and finds Hoopla more suspicious for it, it's scummy.
If camn was sincere, she might comment on the quality etc. - this however is just that whatever Apok does, she will be seen as scummy.

Also: she is completely and utterly sniffing the winds with the Paws revote.
When Paws replaces out, she immediately posts this:

Frack.

unvote

then she isoes everyone and votes Apok.
However, others are less lenient. esurio and DGB talk about wanting to lynch anyway before replacement, and decide to want to do it.

camn then revotes.

When I enter the game and say I wouldn't lynch before claim/replacement, she comments:

Can we lynch Paws now? DO you really want to wait on a replacement and a claim? Cuz I don't. I am feeling bloodthirsty, as usual.

She thought at first it's "pro-town" to replace, then she sees she can get away with being gung-ho and joins the popular winds.

[Ojanen]

Also, anyone who has the slightest townvibe on me - please consider wagoning camn. Now. Quick wagons are awesome for information for various reasons and crack games open.
I haven't had this good a click in ages.
And when I get a good click, it's very good news. I've never ever bragged about that Scummies tag or really even referenced it before. But when I do have a click, I get accurate enough to have earned a tag, I think.
I am so sure I'm right about camn that I could willingly set my head up for vigging tonight, or lynch tomorrow if I'm wrong about camn.
In fact, I could do exactly that.

Dear town,
Please vote camn. Now. This clicks so hard for me that I'm willing to have my own head to be chopped next if I'm wrong about it.

Please comment on this in your next post.

[Ojanen]

Camn wagon is stupid as hell. You all should unvote her now. And Ojanen should be ashamed of herself because her camn case is a little - but only a little - more reasonable than Haylen's case, which is one of the worse cases Ive seen in my time here.

I don't know if you're being scum or a massive distraction for town

again

, tajo, I wish you'd just go back to lurking.

I KNOW THAT CAMN IS SCUM.
KILL ME NEXT IF I'M WRONG.

Hell, I'd even be alright with getting myself lynched first if the vig would promise to put a bullet to camn's head in the case I flip town.

COME ON GIRLS.

[Ojanen]

Apokalyptika, you think camn is scummy, please vote her.
I beg you.
Haylen is town.
Everyone else that has had votes today has had a serious conflict with camn at some point or other. Bussing exists but what I'm set out to ensure today is 1. camn's death, 2. none of SB/Haylen/Apok/UK getting lynched or killed. Bussing is absolutely not where you look first.

[Ojanen]

And camn, I wuv you too. You're something special. One of the people on MS I religiously admire.
I'm very sorry we couldn't be bouncing off ideas off each other in the same team this game.

[Ojanen]

Fenchurch, you used to think I'm town and you saw some merit in the case.
Vote camn. Please. Apok is five, you are six. Then we'd just need one more to hammer.

[Ojanen]

YES! I love you Hoopla. Seriously.

We are going to blast the damn roof off this game. Right now.
I KNOW THAT CAMN IS SCUM. I stake my life on it.

I'm not having any of this DGB wiggle of both of us being town, either.
We do not share an alignment and I don't care if we both die in the blast even if I die first. Choose your side.

[Ojanen]

Sotty, Fenchurch: My urgency is due to 2 things: quick wagons, especially on scum, in the right circumstances break games; there can be a wonderland of information from it if the chips fall right.
The tell I found retrospectively to be the most powerful ever was about a QL wagon on scum. I had it as a potential tell in my mind but didn't get to use it thoroughly. It picked out 4 players from a large game. they were the exact 4 scumbuddies of the wagoned scum that game.
All will be parsed later. Now's not the time.
The time window has almost passed already though and these circumstances are not as fruitful as they could have been. Still, every post is valuable.

Second: momentum.
I have the world of respect for camn. She will come in. She will talk in the voice of angels. She will look like she's made out cinnamon and honey and teddybears. She'll make you think I'm a delusional lunatic. I'm certain she's a hard lynch.
I know she is scum.
I've had my share of not being able to get the scumlynch through (and promptly drawing a nk etc.). It's not happening this game.

I'll try to sell some more to you through this whole case business later today.

SPARTAAA!

[Ojanen]

Great.
I'm now confident we have enough believers.
HA!

[Ojanen]

DGB has posted in 2 other games 12 hours after she was last here.

[Ojanen]

DGB, you are right again. I am town here. But I am not willing to fight Ojanen all game... And I think there will be some benefit in this wagon that has popped up, don't you?

I go literally all out on you out of the blue, raving like a lunatic, shouting Sparta and you think I'm totally town.
But you don't spend one minute trying to convince me. Your immediate reaction is to resign. You don't even comment on anything what I say except you're sad my confidence is going to get destroyed.
Yesterday you'd had a bad day.
Today you're not interested in fighting me the whole game.
And it's because you know that you've been had. You know I know.

I'm up for a hammer. If noone is willing to do it soon then so be it, but this bandwagon cannot fall apart.

[Ojanen]

So hi.
I was very very wrong about camn, and I'll be the first to admit that was ridiculously bad.
I'm really sorry that didn't work out. I owe apologies especially to camn and cepi.

I'd absolutely love to tell you why I did all that tirade (probably mostly out of selfish reasons: to let you know that there is still a shred of sanity within my head.) It really had next to nothing to do with gut. Unfortunately, right now, I can't. Something is confusing me big time in the game and I have to figure it out first. I need to make sure I don't mess up again.

I won't whine or whimper if you want my life for camn's now, although I'll fight for information.

vote: Apokalyptika

though, for obvious reasons.
She should claim a target.
I'll reread a lot soon, but I'm on

LA

until Wednesday (3 days, 4 towns).

[Ojanen]

unvote

[Ojanen]

Dead Haylen-town is unfortunate, but it makes things easier for me.
She was pretending to be a cop, to draw a nightkill I suppose. Or then there were a series of major coincidences that look like breadcrumbs.
The first thing that drew my attention was probably just because it was my name. At the end of her camn case.

Just as an add on, Ojanen is given me tingly feelings. I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad thing yet, but I'm going to keep my eyes peeled.

At first I thought that this was funny because it's really beyond contentless. Then I suddenly thought how much it reminded me of a breadcrumb SerialClergyman once dropped. I wondered whether she's a cop pre-crumbing to investigate me.
I look up the page a couple of posts.

S_B.
I.
Am.
Psychic.

*snigger*

To a comment that Snow white dropped about her.

So I look at her last content post at the end of D1. The last line says

Still got my eye on camn.

Then I look at what Haylen does D2. From her first post to the last she's attacking camn, spending all this time trying to build a case, saying that she will be pissed if hammered before she gets her work done.
I mean this just must have been intentional:

Witholding information from the town, this looks like to me. That's scummy because a town aligned player would want the town to know everything that they know (

unless they're a PR

)

.

Hayl's Scumlist.

She is keeping her town reads hidden.

camn
cepi
Snow_Bunny/DGB

No townreads, overarching scumread, a bunch of breadcumbs.
After the fact I realize there was something making me probably more biased in seeing what I thought I was seeing. I first learned the names of the mafia roles in the werewolf variant where the cop is called näkijä in my language, seer in English I guess. I associate seeing related stuff to cops overly strongly due to that probably, cop breadcrumbs were always about seeing in that environment.

My first thought was to believe Haylen was real, and to think omg camn is never going to get lynched.
The rest you know. I took a gamble. You can judge whether it was on reasonable assumptions or not; I thought the payoff

could

have been great and I wanted to absorb attention from the hypo-cop, who was getting wagoned right then. It didn't work out in any case. Make of it what you will.

I have a plane to catch. See you soon.

[Ojanen]

I can't post properly yet (on the road) but

With Apok confirmed as the vig now I think Ojanen was shifting attention away from the Snow Bunny lynch to protect her. I don't buy the cop explanation and seem like a big leap considering Haylen's play.

Hi Sotty.
What about Haylen's play made it a big leap? Does this mean you think there were just no marks of copness or negative marks of copness?
Why do you think I was likely protecting SB by throwing this actively suicidal rampage (encouraging "kill me when camn flips town" from scum's viewpoint) rather than wagoning the rising wagon Haylen, for example? Scum even knew the vig was real.
I'm tempted to OMGUS this comment because it comes from a person who understands being scum very well and it doesn't reflect that understanding.

I refuse to consider voting Apok, cepi, Hoops. DGB might also go on that list again after I have a bit of time to read. How many are we currently, 10? That leaves 5.
SB, Sotty, Dizzy, UK, Snow White.
Sort them out when out of LA.

[Ojanen]

Still LA but Sotty keeps pulling me in.
I haven't played with Haylen before, Sotty, except for one game where she replaced in and never caught up.

3]Do you know my scum meta?

It's all about taking big big risks to look as townie as possible. Just like your little gambit.

I'll say again, if Snow Bunny flips town then this theory gets throw out the window, hence why I really want to lynch Bunny right now.

I have seen you as scum bussing like hell in a fundamentally powerful way and look "town" through posting analysis and the usual stuff. Correct me if you do mad gambits as scum. But. I'm really wondering if you can possibly be sincere here.
You think I was scum trying to look

as townie as possible

by
1) violently advocating a one on one trade on a townie and me (you should know the math)
2) asking to be killed when the little reason lynch proved wrong while knowing there was a vig
All to save a scumbuddy of mine (SnowBunny) who is under heavy suspicion, while I hadn't garnered a single vote whole game iirc. This potential sacrifice of mine would have no long term impact on suspicion on SB - no distancing effect, nothing. And:

The chance to get rid of camn at this point wasn't something scumOjanen could have passed up.

Umm, really? Instead of something like nightkilling her, you think I calculated beforehand that it wouldn't turn against me to take total responsibility of attempted quicklynch on town, and this was a chance I just

couldn't have passed up

?
Also, my "little gambit"? LITTLE?

2]Because Haylen's case on camn made her look better, and it looked like she wouldn't be the lynch despite her wagon building in her absence.

Haylen's case and the following people that gave it cred (myself, UK and Fenchruch I believe) gave you the opening to power though a camn lynch

.

My "wow, omg camn is scum, will explain" post was the first after Haylen's case.

Btw, before you call it absolute nada, I'm hoping to pull some info from the quickwagon regardless.

[Ojanen]

Aaand I'm back. No reread yet but looking quickly at cepi's argument, I took a look at this:

Actually, upon reading cepi's case, it occurs to me that UK made no posts between day start and Snow's. Which posts made you feel UK was more town, precisely?

The ones at the end of past day. When camn's wagon began to form and end.

Looking back, post 562

Too bad you're scum in this game and you'll have to be lynched!
But thanks! ^_^

Clearly at this point she's not feeling more town on UK.
UK's only posts after that are these:

Oh, Apok. You have to shoot tonight. It'll prove your role. Of course, if you get shot because you fakeclaimed vig, that solves itself as well.

Well, the good news is the nature of her claim and the set up means...if she's not dead tomorrow, and there was only one kill, odds are she's lying.

If Haylen isn't vig'ed, Apok is lynched. No questions asked.

If ANY vig occurs this would be the most fucktarded thing you could do.

SB is not telling the truth about the reason she switched stances, that much is clear. I don't think I'm missing anything major in these 3 pretty self-evident posts.
S_B, explain.
Won't lend my vote to anything before the reread cepi, sorry. (Hi sotty, I already know what you are typing.)

[Ojanen]

Imo either SnowBunny is scum with x and y or the scum lies in 2-3 from [Sotty, dizzy, SW] and 0-1 of my strong townreads [cepi/Hoopla/DGB].

[Ojanen]

I want a claim from SB too.

[Ojanen]

Sotty, could you quickly answer a simple question:
how convinced are you that SB is scum? For example on a scale of 1 to 10 or anything similar that gets it across clearly.

[Ojanen]

I was pretty sure you are either scum or cop, although I was holding back since my imagination was a bit too wild last time. And early claim better than later since this wagon seemed unevitable.
Any counterclaims or counters through a mason pair?
The fact that you claim no result means that if you speak the truth, it is provable by the existence of a doc/jk targeting DGB or you. This also gives the claim a bit of credit. I thought the only result matching with your posts would have been a town on Haylen N1.
Let's think. We should be able to crack this game.

[Ojanen]

Also, to paint her innocent with the Godfather brush doesn't bode well for her honesty.

I disagree with this being a valid tell since we know 1 out of 3 scum is godfather.
Noone lynch her right now please. The claim is über easily disproven if it's not true. If we have anyone in the game who is a cop, doc, backup, mason, a rb not targeting her N1 or a jk not targeting her/DGB, she is confirmed scum. Pretty stupid fake claim.

[Ojanen]

This'll get me some boos. But. I'll say at this point that, shock holler, I don't find it totally inconceivable that the whole camn wagon was town. IF SBs claim is true, it's in fact looking like that. Because Hoopla is such a strong townread and UK would have to be a GF.

Ultra

quick wagons (outside of lylo and a guilty result and so on) contain most likely town, VI scum who expect to get away with their meta and only quite-a-bit-bolder-than-average scum, and this must have looked like a really warty wagon.

But let's see if anyone has a guilty on SB first.

[Ojanen]

In fact if I'd have to lay down a bet right now it would be that either SB is town, or less likely that SB had no help from the daytalking and messed up (lurker/being replaced buddies). I can see little other reason for claiming no result on D1 .

[Ojanen]

If SB had claimed some result from D1, only the existance of a cop or a mason pair (or someone happening to block her N1) would have exposed it as a certain lie.
As it is now, if she lies, there will be 2 real powerroles here from which guaranteed 1 and extremely probably 2 will know right away she's lying. Pr fishing is possible but imo it's still stupid to not up chances of survival - there even already is a vig that scum need to kill if they want to get rid of a confirmed pr.

Right now we have a lot of people unvoting or turning heads to other directions although saying they aren't inclined to really believe the claim. I think SB's alignment is an important piece in the puzzle and I'd like to know it and have it as tangible information for deciding today's lynch.
If I read the thread correctly, only cepi, Miyu or Dizzy can be the missing disprovers.
Everyone else has commented by turning away.
We don't even have to expose the blocker atm if SB is indeed cop.

I am either vanilla, or a blocker targeting SB N1, or a jk targeting SB or DGB N1.

This is true for me, and I think true for everyone who has commented so far (except the scum among us)[if someone wishes to correct me on this on their part, please do so].

@cepi, Miyu and dizzy

: could you please comment on that statement?

[Ojanen]

As it is now, if she lies, there will be 2 real powerroles here from which guaranteed 1 and extremely probably 2 will know right away she's lying.

Except if the 2 reals would be a blocker targeting SB N1 AND a jk targeting SB/DGB N1. But that'd be such an incredible freak coincidence that I don't think it needs to be worried about.

[Ojanen]

Oh, and welcome Miyu!
RC is doing a smashing job of finding female replacements, I thought that'd be tough.

[Ojanen]

@Sotty: You had Paws in your newbie game as town. What was the influence of the inside knowledge of her alignment in that ongoing game to your read of Paws here if any?

[Ojanen]

Miyumiyumiyu, are you still here? Can you respond right away to post 775?

[Ojanen]

Hate to be multiposting this much but you guys are on the wrong continent.
This bottleneck is stupid.

@mod:

do you think you could prod Dizzy? last post on Wednesday and she did say she's sick, but she could check in since she has taken care of her modding commitment in the meantime.

I did, but I'll ask her what she wants to do about this game.

DIZZYIZZYB13

: please respond to 775 asap.

cepi posted as Anon last night in another game. Come on.

The stuff that happens to the votecounts if SB is for real is quite drastic, and it's this:

Hoopla

(3) (Sucrose - Sotty7 -

Apokalyptika

)

Haylen

(2) (Hoopla -

Haylen)

Apokalyptika

(2) (esuriospiritus - camn)

camn

(2) (

UncertainKitten

- Snow_Bunny)

Not Voting

(6) (Ojanen - chauchaudotcom - cepi -

Paws - Fenchurch

- DrippingGoofball)

camn

(4) (

UncertainKitten

- Snow_Bunny - Haylen - Apokalyptika

)[/size]

Paws

(3) (Sotty7 - Hoopla -

camn

)

Apokalyptika

(2) (

esuriospiritus

- cepi)

Snow_Bunny

(1) (chauchaudotcom)

UncertainKitten

(1) (Sucrose)

Not Voting

(4) (Ojanen -

Paws - Fenchurch

- DrippingGoofball)

Paws

(4) (

Sotty7

-

camn -

UncertainKitten

- Apokalyptika

)

[/b]

camn

(2) (Snow_Bunny - Haylen)

Apokalyptika

(1) ( cepi)

Snow_Bunny

(1) (chauchaudotcom)

UncertainKitten

(1) (Sucrose)

Sucrose

(1) (Hoopla)

chauchaudotcom

(1) (esuriospiritus)

Not Voting

(4) (Ojanen -

Paws - Fenchurch

- DrippingGoofball)

Paws

(6) (

Sotty7

-

UncertainKitten

-

Apokalyptika

- Haylen

-

DrippingGoofball

-

camn

)

[/b]

Apokalyptika

(2) (cepi -

Fenchurch

)

camn

(1) (Snow_Bunny)

Snow_Bunny

(1) (chauchaudotcom)

UncertainKitten

(1) (Sucrose)

Sucrose

(1) (Hoopla)

chauchaudotcom

(1)

(esuriospiritus)

Not Voting

(2) (Ojanen -

Paws

)

Paws

(8) (Sotty7 -

UncertainKitten

- Apokalyptika - Haylen

- DrippingGoofball -

esuriospiritus - camn - Fenchurch

)

camn

(1) (Snow_Bunny)

Apokalyptika

(1) (cepi)

Snow_Bunny

(1) (chauchaudotcom)

UncertainKitten

(1) (Sucrose)

Sucrose

(1) (Hoopla)

Not Voting

(2) (Ojanen -

Paws

)

Apokalyptika

(2) (cepi - DrippingGoofball)[/size][/b]

chauchaudotcom

(1) (Sotty7)

Snow_Bunny

(1) (camn )

camn

(1) (Haylen)

Sucrose

(1) (

UncertainKitten

)

DrippingGoofball

(1) (Hoopla)

Haylen

(1) (Apokalyptika)

Not Voting

(5) (Ojanen - Sucrose - chauchaudotcom -

Fenchurch - Snow_Bunny

)

Haylen

(3) (Apokalyptika

-

Sucrose

-

Fenchurch

)[/size][/b]

Snow_Bunny

(3) (

Hoopla

-

camn -

UncertainKitten

)[/size][/b]

Apokalyptika

(2) (

cepi - DrippingGoofball

)[/size]

camn

(2) (Haylen - Snow_Bunny)

chauchaudotcom

(1) (Sotty7)

Not Voting

(2) (Ojanen[ - chauchaudotcom

Haylen

(3) (Apokalyptika

-

Sucrose

-

Fenchurch

)[/size][/b]

Snow_Bunny

(3) (Hoopla -

camn -

UncertainKitten

)

Apokalyptika

(3) (cepi - DrippingGoofball - Ojanen)

camn

(2) (Haylen - Snow_Bunny)

Snow White

(1) (Sotty7)

Not Voting

(1) (Snow White)

Apokalyptika

(4) (cepi - DrippingGoofball - Ojanen - Hoopla)

Snow_Bunny

(3) (

camn -

UncertainKitten

- Sotty7)

Haylen

(2) (

Apokalyptika

- Sucrose)

camn

(2) (Haylen - Snow_Bunny)

Not Voting

(2) (Snow White -

Fenchurch

)

Apokalyptika

(5) (cepi - DrippingGoofball - Hoopla -

camn - Fenchurch

)

Snow_Bunny

(2) (

UncertainKitten

- Sotty7)

Haylen

(2) (

Apokalyptika

- Sucrose)

camn

(1) (Haylen

UncertainKitten

(1) (Snow_Bunny)

Not Voting

(2) (Snow White -

Ojanen

)

camn

(4) (

Haylen

- Ojanen - Hoopla -

UncertainKitten

)

Haylen

(3) (

Apokalyptika

- Sucrose - DrippingGoofball)

Apokalyptika

(2) (cepi -

Snow_Bunny

)

Snow_Bunny

(2) (Sotty7 -

camn

)

Not Voting

(2) (Snow White -

Fenchurch

)

camn

(7) (

Haylen

-

Ojanen - Hoopla

-

UncertainKitten

- Snow_Bunny - Fenchurch - Apokalyptika

)[/size][/b]

Haylen

(2) (Sucrose - DrippingGoofball)

Snow_Bunny

(2) (Sotty7 -

camn

)

Apokalyptika

(1) (cepi)

Not Voting

(1) (Snow White)

Snow_Bunny

(3) (

UncertainKitten

- Sotty7 - cepi)

Hoopla

(1) (

Snow_Bunny

)

DrippingGoofball

(1) (Hoopla)

Not Voting

(5) (DizzyIzzyB13 - Snow White -

Apokalyptika

- DrippingGoofball - Ojanen)

Snow_Bunny

(2) (Sotty7 - cepi)

Hoopla

(1) (

Snow_Bunny

)

DrippingGoofball

(1) (Hoopla)

Sotty7

(1) (

UncertainKitten

)

DizzyIzzyB13

(1) (DrippingGoofball)

Not Voting

(4) (DizzyIzzyB13 - Snow White -

Apokalyptika

- Ojanen)

Snow_Bunny

(2) (Sotty7 - cepi)

Hoopla

(1) (

Snow_Bunny

)

DrippingGoofball

(1) (Hoopla)

Sotty7

(1) (

UncertainKitten

)

DizzyIzzyB13

(1) (DrippingGoofball)

Not Voting

(4) (DizzyIzzyB13 - Snow White -

Apokalyptika

- Ojanen)

Snow_Bunny

(3) (Sotty7 - cepi -

UncertainKitten

)

DizzyIzzyB13

(2) (DrippingGoofball - Hoopla)

Hoopla

(1) (

Snow_Bunny

)

Not Voting

(4) (DizzyIzzyB13 - Snow White -

Apokalyptika

- Ojanen)

I have thoughts but I want the information of whether SB is confirmed scum or confirmed cop before it's worth to shoot off to pursue hypotheticals. Now.

[Ojanen]

Im borderline thinking that we should go all in with the information stuff and decide if Bunny is either confirmed or scum.

I'm thinking we are

freaking stupid

if we don't find out her alignment now. We don't have several mislynches/misviggings to spare anymore and lynch chances are imo now certainly a lot more valuable than an unouted powerrole. If anyone is a pr except the rb/jk scenarios and decides for some reason to spare it for later, an unnecessary ambiguous lylo claim situation will happen tomorrow if we mislynch+misvig.
We neeeeed the info for max accuracy today.

I am either vanilla, or a blocker targeting SB N1, or a jk targeting SB or DGB N1.

is all it takes if SB is real. If she's not, someone needs to out themselves, but that is imo a million times lesser evil.

Also, that accusation of Paws being inconsistent to her claim by still saying UK is scummy but suspicion went down is, imo, crap.

@Sotty: You had Paws in your newbie game as town. What was the influence of the inside knowledge of her alignment in that ongoing game to your read of Paws here if any?

It had an effect. In my newbie game, she replaced in and right away got her hands dirty with game content. While in this game she simply refused to comment on the game state right up until the very end of her lynch. I thought the excuse of day ones being boring was a reach when I know she would have read the day one of the newbie.

This is scummy.
I thought you would have known Paws was raw/always scummy based on that and that it would have made you more unsure of how to read her. Also, there is little analogy to your modded game.
In that game there was an immediate cop guilty on D2, right when Paws replaced in, and that day happened during the confirmations of this game. ("Where I come from D1 is basic randomness" ITT does not contradict this.) Paws

extremely

clumsily practically claims doctor upon the result (as vanilla, trying to draw the scumkill but in a VI way). That makes people suspicious of her and even makes the scum that is going down trying to connect himself to her.
Further, Paws demonstrates having not read the rules by speculating about miller/framer (although finding them unlikely).
Further, Paws

never ever

during the game even comments on any D1 or later "case" content, she only ever reasons on role information, so how did you know she would have read D1??

[Ojanen]

EBWOP Also, that accusation of

Paws

SB being inconsistent to her claim by still saying UK is scummy but suspicion went down is, imo, crap.

[Ojanen]

Miyu - I don't think anything I respond to "why are you not voting yourself" type of stuff will be useful. I gambited, I failed, I hang my head and try to scumhunt. There is no motivation for me to follow through now that I know I was just grossly overcertain and wrong and camn went first. If others wants to lynch/vig me for the stunt, I still hang my head and scumhunt.
If there is anything in those questions that actually makes a difference to you, ask again please.
Camn is anything but a weakling though. Camn is a fabled player.

- I see no reason to not believe SB's claim of Cop.

I am either vanilla, or a blocker targeting SB N1, or a jk targeting SB or DGB N1.

- Though I don't get what your aim with this is Ojanen. You think the scum will not fakeclaim that statement, and that a JK/RB is going to claim?

You don't understand. I find the claim more believable than most who stay ambiguous/suspicious towards it. I'm trying to get SB confirmed town (or confirmed scum if it's false).
If SB is town, all it takes is that everyone states this sentence you just also repeated. We do not out the jk/rb. I don't want them to claim. And we get the certainty of SB's alignment and investigation now. (Look at the rules; we know there are 3 prs from this pool of prs, we know Apok is a vig, we know there are only 2 other prs.)
If there are 1-2 incompatible prs, which there will be if SB is scum, by one of them counterclaiming we get a confirmed guilty on SB and don't waste time. If scum counterclaims, we can sort that out by vigging tonight and 1-1 trade isn't beneficial for scum.

Apok is vig. Ojanen, UK, DGB, Miyu have claimed the sentence.
We are still waiting for cepi, Dizzy, Sotty, Hoopla.