Open 249: Mayo Clinic **Game Over!**

[JesseSheffield]

Grate. Have not played with ANY of you before.

[JesseSheffield]

Are we bandwagoning gandalf because nopoint knows he's the SK?

[JesseSheffield]

Well honestly if we're going off on whims here than I'd rather vote nopoint over gandalf.

[JesseSheffield]

Because eventually, somehow, the group has to come up with majorities. But don't worry, your vote will have absolutely no dictation on who I vote for.

[JesseSheffield]

Oh, yeah, I don't random vote. You'll learn that.

[JesseSheffield]

I have no idea what anything gandalf says means.

[JesseSheffield]

I thought it was because he might be scum, and casting a vote would cause too much cognitive dissonance for him. But since there are better things to persue, like Katsuki and SSS's defense of it.

Just curious, when have you ever seen scum employ that type of tactic?

[JesseSheffield]

Because there's a huge difference between scumhunting, and scumseeking. And it seems like Antihero's seeking out reasons for players to be scum with reasons that I really don't think make much sense.

[JesseSheffield]

It's that I don't usually cast a random vote, I DON'T cast a random vote.

[JesseSheffield]

unvote; vote: JesseSheffield

my vote belongs here again. I don't like Jesse's reason for not voting. Sure, having a reason to vote is good. But, sitting there not voting and saying he isn't going to randomly vote will not cut it. I can't imagine he has NO opinion on ANY player.
@Jesse - Has anyone done anything scummy in this game so far? Who do you suspect the most?
Also I'm not familiar with the term scumseeking. I have a vague idea, but could you explain more?

It's not so much about having a reason for not voting, that's not even an issue. The point is I ONLY vote with reason, meaning I vote to lynch. There has been a ton of scummy action so far in the game but that doesn't make them scum. gandalf claiming scum was clearly a scummy thing to do but that doesn't mean gandalf is scum and at this point I don't have any reason to believe that he is. And gandalf hit the nail on the head with the definition of scumseeking.

Because there's a huge difference between scumhunting, and scumseeking. And it seems like Antihero's seeking out reasons for players to be scum with reasons that I really don't think make much sense.

Deriding your attacker's argument instead of pointing out why it's flawed.

Unvote.Vote:Jesse

Wagon go go go!

I'm pointing out why it's flawed by pointing out he's seeking out reasons for players to be scum instead of scumhunting. Where are you missing this...

[JesseSheffield]

If I had to pick out players who I think are most likely to be scum I'd say you, Phaen. Town players don't normally seek out reasons for players to be scum. That's something scum do because they can't actually pick out other players to be scum, because they're the scum.

[JesseSheffield]

@Jesse: What doesn't make sense about Anti's reasoning?

I've never heard of a scum player not voting because it would cause cognitive dissonance. I don't think that's a valid scum-hunting technique, however, I do think that he was attempting to generate discussion so I'll give him that, it worked pretty well and I'm grateful for that. But now it seems we're on different levels.

lolwat?

VOTE: JesseSheffield

Having issues?

[JesseSheffield]

Yes, especially when you call Phaen scum after she pressures you to take an opinion.

So you have an issue with me answering Phaen's question? How does this make sense?

[JesseSheffield]

So how are we supposed to find scum? Just intuition?

What do you mean how are we supposed to find scum? Play the game? It's really not that difficult. But mislynches occur when players seek out reasons for players to be scum. It's backwards logic in this game.

[JesseSheffield]

And why's that. It'd be helpful if you'd give explanations along with your posts instead of waiting to be asked.

[JesseSheffield]

If there's a reason for someone to be scum, he's more likely scum than town you do realize right?

Not really. If that were the case everyone would be scum. You can finagle your way into making anything anybody says or does as scummy. So you have to have enough deductive reasoning to figure out what's really an action scum would take versus a scummy action.

[JesseSheffield]

There's a couple things wrong with that.

#1 There's such thing as town attacking town (considering they won't know who the other town are).
#2 Scum will most likely attack scum to look like they're not associated.
#3 That's exactly what I was doing, judging that their argument wasn't strong enough to really warrant any further thought.

[JesseSheffield]

Meh, I kind of want to eat my dinner.

[JesseSheffield]

The nopoint wagon was started because nopoint was trying to validate that gandalf claimed scum and that it was accurate. So then shotty formed a wagon on him for what seemed more like meta/personal issues than anything else, animorpherv jumped right on behind because he's a follower and likes to ride other players' coattails, and Katsuki jumped on after because he thought nopoint was going after easy targets.

[JesseSheffield]

Things change in Mafia by post, you should know that. Just because someone is most likely to be scum doesn't mean they're scum, obviously. Six pages in is nowhere near long enough for me to start panicking about the day lasting to long, especially D1. It should be pretty obvious by now that I don't think you're likely to be scum. Two and a half days ago that answer would've been different. But I'm not foolhardy enough to jump the gun and pursue a wagon intending to lynch someone so early. And throw out that useless percentage system.

[JesseSheffield]

Your definition of conservative may be withholding a vote but it's not mine. Who knows though, you could be correct.

[JesseSheffield]

How long is your Mafia career? Just wondering...

[JesseSheffield]

I'm mistaking anything Phaen. I know and understand exactly what you're saying and the point you're attempting to make. It seems like you're not able or willing to understand my point or my style of play. And that is not my problem.

[JesseSheffield]

Give me one good reason why you should dictate when to place my vote. Is pressuring other players to vote a tactic you normally apply?

[JesseSheffield]

Naw, I understood him perfectly. His observation that I was misunderstanding what he was saying to me was inaccurate. And like I said-

I'm mistaking anything Phaen. I know and understand exactly what you're saying and the point you're attempting to make.

[JesseSheffield]

Since smashbro wanted to know my opinions on players here they are.

Antihero- I was getting good vibes from Antihero early on in the game. It seemed like he was asking good, significant questions to draw out information. But now later on in the game it seems like all he’s interested in is asking questions, making generic or half statements, and then kind of floating along. Still though, I get good town vibes from his earlier posts.

Muthaa- Just sort of lazy and unhelpful. I could easily see him as being scum just floating by and not pressing buttons to attract attention.

nopoint- Seems like he has an okay head on his shoulders, but seems really self-aware of the impact he makes on other players in his posts. To the point where it’s manipulative. Mixed vibes on him.

gandalf- Hasn’t really done or said anything that contributes original, progressive content. Could go either way.

Scott Bro- Isn’t doing anything at all, null tell because he isn’t around enough to get a good read on. That could may or may not be strategy, can’t tell.

warrior- Spending a lot more time explaining other people’s actions rather than saying anything original themselves, not liking it.

Katsuki- Says a lot without having real substance in their posts. Seems to have a good time explaining nothing, can’t really get anything out of them useful either.

shotty- Hasn’t said anything helpful and instead seems to be having a lot of fun pushing buttons and sitting on the sidelines. Don’t like him, and I think he’s going to be a hindrance later if current posting trends continue, but I think he’s most likely town.

smashbro- While posting infrequently I think it seems like he’s paying good attention to the important issues in the thread and is attempting to generate helpful discussion. Town vibes.

Phaen- Not bad, townish vibes. Attempting to generate competent discussion and looks like she’s scumhunting.

animorpherv- Useless, but fits meta. Probably town, sucks if he is though.

If there were anyone I could see as scum right now it’d be Muthaa so

Vote: Muthaa

I think he’s likely scum floating around and not attracting attention to himself and letting more...conversational and louder players take the heat. I think he realizes that most likely neither wagon is generating enough competent reasoning to warrant a lynch and he’s sitting back waiting to take advantage of one.

[JesseSheffield]

I like Jesse's post, but just one thing bothers me: he's never played with shotty before. So he doesn't know that you have to break out a diffent scale of scumminess for shotty. And yet.... he has a townread on him anyways. I don't disagree with the read, it just surprises me is all.

Unvote

This wagon has served its purpose.

In response to this- I've done my research.

[JesseSheffield]

Actually, I think it's more telling that Gandalf obeyed this without question.

Unvote
Vote:gandalf5166

What does this say about gandalf then? How does this make gandalf scum?

[JesseSheffield]

Antihero is prob scum. By that statement, I mean that if muthaa is able to convince us that he is town, then antihero is next. Or if muthaa is lynched, then antihero tomorrow (barring revealing wagon flip signs or stuff like that/death)

Also, I didn't feel like answering anti since he's done virtually nothing all game except call me scum. When I asked him to explain, his answer was "no". Maybe it will seem like OMGUS to you guys, but does anti give town vibes to

anyone

???

Since when is lining up lynches okay...

I love how you've given pretty much no explanation as to why you think antihero is scum other than "he's done virtually nothing all game except call me scum".

@Jesse: So... you think I'm scum (I'm kind of confused)?

Did my vote give you any other inclination other than "I think you're scum"?

This is hypocritical. Jesse had not explained

why

he wasn't voting at the time, so it could be argued that you are protecting Jesse's actions.

ANTIHERO. Quit being annoying and ISO. It's not that difficult, eight days ago. Don't understand HOW you possibly could have missed it.

Oh, yeah, I don't random vote. You'll learn that.

[JesseSheffield]

@Jesse: I always line lynches. Get used to it, its how I play.

Well don't expect me to run along with that.

I didn't miss it.

Again, saying that you don't random vote =/= saying

why

you don't random vote

Because the RVS is boring and I tend to generate more competent discussion not voting than voting. It's pretty self-explanatory.

[JesseSheffield]

I agree with warrior, I'm not quite sure if massclaiming would be the best idea today? Maybe if I saw it mapped out it would make a little bit more sense, I would see it helping more D2 or D3.

[JesseSheffield]

I would like to see him claim.

[JesseSheffield]

unvote

I need to ISO him, I really want to be sure about this

Why would you vote him if you weren't sure in the first place? What's changed your mind so drastically right before deadline that you don't think that's where your vote should be anymore?

[JesseSheffield]

I really don't think that's the case. If shotty were scum wanting no lynch he would've made a much bigger deal about it I feel like. If anything it's more like scum trying to slip out of a lynch for some reason, what reason that would be...who knows.

[JesseSheffield]

I just doubt that the reason would be a no lynch when there were so many players interested in hammering. I think he would've figured that if he wanted a no lynch he'd actually have to put some effort in. Of course that's all WIFOM but that's what I think.

[JesseSheffield]

Hoooly crap yeah I agree with both of you that a massclaim is pretty necessary.

[JesseSheffield]

I don't understand why doctors wouldn't reveal their targets, why would we not release any possible helpful information while we can? But...

Vote: Scott Brosius

I assume others will understand why?

Scum will know who is/isn't protected but it also confirms scum if someone who was supposed to be protected dies.

[JesseSheffield]

Revealing doc targets last night is useless? Unless you're talking about something else...

Because if we happen to mislynch today we'll be down to 4 town players and 3 scum players. If we set up a system of protection scum will know who to target, and if the vig's mess up we can end up 3 town players to 3 scum players. So basically he's setting us up to fail.

[JesseSheffield]

It has absolutely nothing to do with last night? I'm 100% talking about today and the following night. And I have nothing against a massclaim, I think that's a smart idea, I just fail to see the logic behind letting scum know the protection scheme when it can easily lead to a scum win.

[JesseSheffield]

And if we go into this night with 4 town and 3 scum and that scenario happens then scum wins.

FAIL.

[JesseSheffield]

Who was suggesting that we coordinate doc protects for tonight?

Last time we only had one vig alive D2 (me) and I orchestrated a protection scheme. This could work again. After claims, the vigs can agree who protects who (probably wise to have 2 claimed doctors protecting each vig) and assign the other 2 claimed doctors elsewhere. Scum will know who is/isn't protected but it also confirms scum if someone who was supposed to be protected dies.

How did you miss that?

The value in the massclaim is that it should give us a pool of suspects for today - six. If we mislynch, then it puts our fate in the hands of the vigs as to whether we make it another day. I'd rather give the vigs a 1 in 5 chance of hitting scum at night, especially since the mafia doc might make it necessary for both vigs to hit the same scum. It also forces the mafia to think harder about whether they should go after a vig who is likely to be protected or stick to one of the claimed doctors.

What do you suggest we do if we somehow get three vig claims?

[JesseSheffield]

Lets not discuss what we're going to do with 3+ vig claims before the claims happen, wont this only help scum decide whether to claim vig or doc?

Pretty sure scum already know what they're going to do. I was interested in seeing what Hacker's solution to that problem would be.

[JesseSheffield]

So are you planning on claiming before you go on V/LA smashbro? And is that really all you have to say?

[JesseSheffield]

I'm a doctor as well.

[JesseSheffield]

I know this backtracks a bit, but I don't see why you didn't vote for Phaen at this point. People should vote for who they think is scum, yet you hold your vote back. Why?

It was too early in the game to get an accurate read on anyone. Just because I feel someone is most likely to be scum does not mean I think they're scum. I do that often early in the game to let others know where my head's at since they're usually pissy about me not voting.

[JesseSheffield]

Anithero - His biggest contribution is a vote on Katsuki and he makes a wall of text post that really doesn't put together a solid case. Most of what he says about Katsuki doesn't even jive with what actually happened, so it looks to be mostly misrep. Oddly enough, he finds Nopoint to be townie. I'd put him in the mostly fluff category

Phaen - She seems to be very tentative and I really didn't like how both of her real votes (Jesse and Katsuki) were really just pressure votes. It seems a little hypocritical coming from someone who really had a problem with Jesse not taking a stand.

Katsuki - Lots of noise, makes a pretty basic case on Nopoint that gets Antihero all riled up for some reason. Both of his cases (gandalf and Nopoint) are really weak, but are made early in the game. The worries I see are where he says that he always lines lynches, and the fact that he's been less active since the massclaiming went through.

Scott Brosius - This guy has totally been flying under the radar. Only 16 posts and he's discussed claiming in about five of them. I'd throw him in my scumpile.

I agree with most of what you said on Antihero. I don't think Antihero's been the most helpful later in the game and I do agree that most of his posts are fluffy but I don't really seem him as a top scum read. I agree with everything you said about Phaen, I feel as if she's just been floating by through the game, trying pretty hard to not draw attention to herself. Katsuki has made a lot of borderline annoying noise about pretty much nothing. The activity I'm not so worried about because he's also relative inactive in other games. Scott is my #1 scum pick at the moment. I feel like he attempted to pressure the town into making a deal with the devil with the protection scheme and I think he's purposely been not attracting attention to himself in order to fly under the radar. I think he's playing smart, manipulative scum and right now I think he's the town's biggest threat.

So I'm keeping my vote on him.

[JesseSheffield]

Sooo what're your thoughts on Hacker other than that singular post seeming forced and bothering you.

[JesseSheffield]

I'm not seeing the case on Scott; I'm sensing people are just piling on simply because of number of posts (Hacker). Can someone actually show me something he wrote that's scummy?

Actually I was the first to vote him, reasoning here-

Because if we happen to mislynch today we'll be down to 4 town players and 3 scum players. If we set up a system of protection scum will know who to target, and if the vig's mess up we can end up 3 town players to 3 scum players. So basically he's setting us up to fail.

So 1. Nice job reading. And 2. People are piling on? Since when is two votes on a player a pile?

[JesseSheffield]

Got a good reason as to why?

[JesseSheffield]

You're one vote behind on Scott mod. It was two, it's currently at three.

As for Hacker I haven't really been paying that much attention to him, which now that I think about it kind of raises a red flag in my mind because normally I'm really good about keeping tabs on every player. Reading back through him I can't really find anything incriminating but I also can't really find anything that I think a scum player wouldn't do. So I could see the possibility of Hacker being scum but I feel much safer with Scott. I'm fairly positive he's a shoe-in. And at this point, with the game this tight we need a shoe-in scum lynch.

[JesseSheffield]

I would agree with the above but I really don't find it any worse than Scott.

[JesseSheffield]

Better question- Why Phaen over you, Scott?

[JesseSheffield]

Hm. I'm not sure why but I actually feel inclined to agree with you there.

[JesseSheffield]

I have something to say about that but I'll wait until after Katsuki answers to state it.

[JesseSheffield]

Okay well I don't think Katsuki's answer made that much sense.

Anyways, the vig's shouldn't be giving too much input on who they think is scum BESIDES who they're going to vote for because it gives the scum too much info IMO.

[JesseSheffield]

The vigs most likely don't have any better idea as to who's scum as the three town doctors. If we do somehow happen to mislynch, which has a 50% chance if we listen to your idea, and then the scum are also able to protect who they think the vigs are going after and they NK whoever they want we're fucked. And I don't like that possibility. You're either A) thinking too short-sighted or B) scum wanting EXACTLY that to happen.

[JesseSheffield]

Their voices are already out there anyways. The likelihood of the two vigs correctly identifying which three doctors are not scum and convincing those three on who's scum is unlikely without some sort of interference. You seem to be forgetting the scum have a voice no matter what's suggested.

[JesseSheffield]

Unvote, Vote: Phaen

I could see it.

[JesseSheffield]

Unvote: esurio

[JesseSheffield]

Vote: Hacker

I'm not okay with this desperation grab for a wagon.

[JesseSheffield]

bitches! i should've just protected myself. town was screwed before that day had even started.

[JesseSheffield]

yeah we totally thought you were going after antihero. but gg everyone yada yada.

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse had me fooled, but I got a little nagging feeling when he also turned on me so quickly when I made the switch from Esurio to Antihero. I was a little disappointed that no one voted any of my suspects after I flipped town.

it was more like because i had conveniently stated in the game for katsuki and antihero to see that if there was a mislynch the town would most likely and yet they refused to switch onto wagons when there were PLENTY of times the three of us could have ended the day and i was annoyed at them. at that point i was like fine, you guys do whatever you want and i'll follow when there's a likely lynch. which took FOREVER. the day should've ended much sooner.

[JesseSheffield]

Katsuki wanted you dead.

[JesseSheffield]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/xDDx537xKe2Cj