Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Vote: Xine

for totally legitimate reasons.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Vote: Xine

for totally legitimate reasons.

Some history there maybe? If that isn't a total joke, the story behind it might be good before we really get into the meat of the game.

Nope.

@boberz vs DemonHybrid and Parama, I feel like Demon is pushing a bunch of weak points against boberz and that boberz is getting frustrated, which is a towntell, imo.

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

This game is going to be lulzy.

Weapons, what does that make Demons/Parama?

I can attest DH does this every game (inb4 he asks how I know him), and I have an inability to read into large posts, so Parama I'm undecided on right now.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

This game is going to be lulzy.

Weapons, what does that make Demons/Parama?

(inb4 he asks how I know him)

What is this i dont even

Let's see if Parama remembers.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Lol you guys remind me of some buddies on EM.

I know you too Slaxx.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

@DH, yo.

@Slaxx, actually, you mentioned EM already, so nvm.

Do things move about this fast for the whole game here, or is it more stagnant like at SH?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Lol.
Parama, you need to take a chill pill. I'm not going to read any posts near as long as that, and it's only page two....

On the scum side, I'd be shocked if at least one of Boberz and Slaxx isn't scum. At this point, I'm leaning towards this being a poorly executed distancing attempt and they're both scum.

I get to post 34. Boberz is definitely scum.

Vote Boberz

Slaxx, you unvoted Boberz, what do you think of him now?


OH MY GOD, ENOUGH WITH THE MASSIVE POINTLESS POSTS.

Skimmed back through and this post stood out. The second line in particular seems as if charter's focusing attention away from himself/buddies. Why not boberz/DH or boberz/Parama.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Because they don't have a contrived looking back and forth. Why am I supposed to think one of your scenarios instead of mine? It looks like you're trying to pull something out of thin air here. Why do both of your pairs have Boberz and not Slaxx? Do we have it wrong, and Slaxx is scum and Boberz is not? Else I don't see why you're complaining if I'm voting for Boberz, and he's in both the pairs you listed. Really not seeing the problem.

There was a distinct Boberz vs theme in the first two pages, and Slaxx, Parama, and DH were all participants. Slaxx vs Parama/DH didn't happen so those pairs don't make sense. I'm asking what distinguishes vs Slaxx from vs DH/Parama. If you are referring to the exchange near the beginning of the game, I don't agree it appears made up, but this is more a matter of opinion.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Weapons, you assume I'm pushing on boberz with weak points yet you have admitted to not reading my post. Do you know what that makes me think? YOU'RE SCUM.

I said DH was pushing weak points, not you. I read "trying too hard to look town" and "contradiction" and figured where that was going.

Preview Edit: Actually I didn't say anything in regards to what you posted against boberz. I read back and your posts say "you're wrong" more than "you're scum" as the discussion is about game theory, which isn't really dependent on alignment.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Add Xine to the list.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

@xvart, is your av from The Wheel of Time?

I have slight town reads on CES, Lowell, and charter; CES because he's giving a very deliberate vibe from his bandwagon posts, Lowell because he comes into the topic and exudes confidence, and charter for asserting himself nicely when I brought up my thoughts on him.

On the scum side, I would agree that Slaxx lacks commitment to his posts, and defends a lot with meta.

Eats now, maybe more later.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Ok, so to reiterate my other question, why are you complaining that I'm voting Boberz when he's in all the pairs you listed?

I don't think I ever complained about you voting Boberz.

@Slaxx, okay then, you're defending yourself by referencing the way you post. Not really an improvement.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And now the Parama confidence wagon is a-rollin'.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Thoughts since last post.

From what I've played with Parama and how I play, hyperdefensiveness itself is not a scum tell. Rather it is the legitimacy of what the defender posts, and I find Parama's response to Xine to hold water, and so I have a town read on Parama. As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

Oso, your thoughts?

Still getting negatives vibes from Slaxx, mostly due to indecisive tendencies.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Idk about you man, you didnt really"sheep my vote" but you did kind of agree with me on it, but then you kind of started expressing concern for me when it was the cool thing to do. Why the sudden change of heart?

Most of the time I agree with posts, I get the same read before I see them, and just make the post fit context. If I was doing the cool thing, I'd say boberz is scum or CES or maybe Lowell. I'm getting bad vibes from you right now, though I'll take back what I said earlier about defending yourself with the way you play, as nothing else works as a defense and the way you play can legitimately be like that.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

Stating the issue in effect also influences it. If you had gone on doing the same thing, posting something like "I ask a lot of questions in my play," or just ignoring it, it would've earned you town points, but instead, it appears you conformed to the judgement of others, which townies do less because they are less worried about how they look in others' eyes.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You still haven't answered the question.

You could infer a "no" from previous posts.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

DH, you usually post more than this. Any explanation?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

That was random.

How long is twilight?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Also, why does Lowell look townish? Again, explanation would be nice here.

This quote makes me confident that Lowell is town. Parama is also town for obvious reasons.

I would agree with DH that Bub asked a lot about why people were voting boberz, and though most of it was directed at CES, he was defending more than attacking, which is enough to revise my day 1 opinion.

Vote: boberz

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think Xine is town. In examination in iso, it seems he started believing Parama was town while not wanting to appear scummy for quickly changing his opinion because of #5.

I'll wait until Socrates joins us to see if he's actually corrupting the youth.

Unvote

, because of an alcohol related decision.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think Xine is town. In examination in iso, it seems he started believing Parama was town while not wanting to appear scummy for quickly changing his opinion because of #5.

appeal to attacker

tunneling

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I got the exact same read on Xine's last post. The latter three lines said absolutely nothing.

Vote: Xine

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Xine/Socrates scumbuddies seems painfully obvious now.

Socrates is in panic mode and is desperately trying to save his buddy from a lynch.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'll just leave it up to the rest of the town to decide.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Day 2 iso:

Hey folks, how are things?

I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet. Parama, you have a good head on your shoulders, even when you're scum. Who should I vote?

Or you could read 14 pages. Not that hard, especially with motivation to scumhunt.

Actually, Socrates has a bad habit of always following my lead, even when I'm scum. See: NY114.
Admittedly, I caught 2 of the 3 scum on the other team in that game so

Anyways, Xine is teh scum.

It's not exactly a "bad" habit when it leads to dead scum. You might have been scum, but following you was still the right play.

I quite like 342.

vote:Xine

Here we go with sucking up to Parama.

Parama and Slaxx arn't scum buddies.

A minimal observation. This appears to help the town, but Socrates already admitted to sheeping with Parama, which means he thought Parama was town then else he wouldn't be sheeping which reasons out to that there is no reason to establish a disconnection between Parama and Slaxx since the Parama part is redundant. Feel free to ask for clarity if needed.

Xine wagon takes off, to L-1, and suddenly,

At first the Xine wagon was cool, but now its popular so it sucks.

Setup speculation is so totally not a scum tell it's not even funny. It is a new player tell, and possibly even a mild town tell in the current site meta.

unvote

It's not necessarily the speculation of the night kill, it's the fact that Xine posted three lines of ramble that ultimately concluded nothing. Town would simplify it to "Any idea why scum killed CES?"

And this is where Socrates frantically starts to derail the wagon and save his scumbuddy; notice the shift in tone in the following posts.

I misspoke, my apoligies. I meant night kill speculation.

Welcome Socrates, why are you so sure that Parama and Slaxx aren't scum buds?
Parama: If I have this straight, your current case on me is entirely based on Bub buddying to me, is this correct?
I am trying to figure out why scum would kill CES, it seems that it would be easy to rally the town into lynching him, with his active lurking ways... so, who has reason to kill him? His suspect list included myself, Oso, and Boberz. of those 3, Oso actually did make an attempt to lead a wagon on him, and got nowhere, perhaps leading him to believe the opposite of my previously stated hypothesis, and thus choosing him for a night kill? hmmm... too bad this is not something Socrates can respond to. who else has thoughts on the night kill choice?

Parama and Slaxx aren't scum buddies because Slaxx was not happy with the fact that I turned to parama for direction. Furthermore, the way he characterized it says a lot about how Slaxx views parama himself (He see's him as a leader of the town, not something a scumbag would describe one of their buddies as).

Logical, but still a minimal contribution.

I got the exact same read on Xine's last post. The latter three lines said absolutely nothing.

Vote: Xine

This guy is scum.

What happened to your town read? You are willing to abandon it for one little mis-step. (One that is not even actually scummy, I might add).

vote: WOMC

The scuminess in Xine's post is obvious, as others would point out. My original read of Xine wasn't that strong, and Parama has a tendency to tunnel hardcore, so that partly influenced my views.

And now about the style, Socrates now speaks with unwavering conviction, giving urgency to the purpose of dissolving the wagon as fast as possible, yet at this point, he has not even read the thread, and is clearly bullshitting to try and save his partner.

Xine/Socrates scumbuddies seems painfully obvious now.

Socrates is in panic mode and is desperately trying to save his buddy from a lynch.

Characterizing dissent from your wagon of choice as scummy? I look forward to seeing you flip scum, scum.

The panic feeding need to action pulls through in the voice of this passage. This feels like English class.

I'll just leave it up to the rest of the town to decide.

Are you bussing?

Fuck, you're bussing. That's why you are so smug about this.

I hope the town isn't stupid enough to give you town cred if Xine flips scum.

And now for perhaps what stands out as the most concrete scummy post. Earlier, Socrates hopped off the wagon and hinted that he thought Xine was town (scroll back up to see the end about night kill speculation), and now he turns his view around again in order to drive his desperation case. Lastly, the last sentence is the bad kind of AtE.

What we have here is

contradiction

and

flailing

.

Fuck, I feel like DH.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And we have yet another tone shift.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Socrates, do you think standardized national testing (SAT/ACT/AP) for English is legitimate?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Day 1 iso:

Hmph, seems that RVS might be getting over with rather quickly. No matter.

VOTE: xvart

If his performance in our last game is any indication, RVS might be my only opportunity to vote him the entire game.

RVS blah blah blah

Vote: Xine

for totally legitimate reasons.

Some history there maybe? If that isn't a total joke, the story behind it might be good before we really get into the meat of the game.

History blah blah blah

..

Hmph, seems that RVS might be getting over with rather quickly. No matter.

VOTE: xvart

If his performance in our last game is any indication, RVS might be my only opportunity to vote him the entire game.

@Oso: Why would you want to get an opportunity to vote for him?
..

A bit of joking really. Last game we played together he managed to live until endgame as a claimed Doc in another Mini with another protective role already confirmed on the dead list. Actually pretty impressive in how town his play was (he was town as it turns out) and how he remained unlynched simply because of that, when anyone else in that game (me included) would have been lynched out of hand in his position as probably lying scum.

History blah blah blah

That means:

CES: Two bandwagon votes. No relevant game material/discussion.
Lowell: One vote. No relevant game material/discussion.
Oso: One vote, one explanation. No relevant game material/discussion.
xvart: One vote, no explanation. No relevant game material/discussion.

Game Opened: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:58 am
Quoted Post: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:07 pm
This Post: See Time Stamp above.

By my count, that is about 8 hours. A hair over from game open to your post. Please, for future reference tell just me how often I should post (in minutes and seconds please) in order to satisfy you.


P.S- I do reserve the right to go at least 8 hours between posts so as to get some sleep occasionally. But if it hoses you up too badly, I suppose I could sleep/eat/work every other day or so.

Indignation blah blah blah

For those of you that missed the sarcasm, the above is me being irritated.

Addendum blah blah blah

Also I love how you spent the whole time posting all of that out and yet you still have added nothing useful to the discussion

And until I have time to wade through the posts made so far (there were a lot over the course of a few hours), I won't add anything useful.

Answering questions/comments made directly towards me or have my name in them (search function is good for that) is one thing, trying to get something useful out of what 4 or so pages already? Takes a bit longer. I'm going to guess though there is the usual Like/Don't Like RVS discussion in there somewhere and I'm also guessing someone(s) made a vote off of that and there have probably several "walls of texts" trying to tie a bunch of null/slightly scummy tells together into a shaky case.

But I will have something substantial to contribute no later than noon(PST) tomorrow. There should be at least a couple of things useful in there once the usual game start chaff is weeded out.

Justification blah blah blah

@Slaxx

..
But I will have something substantial to contribute no later than noon(PST) tomorrow. There should be at least a couple of things useful in there once the usual game start chaff is weeded out.

Just noticed it's Noon. Post under construction, morning busier than I thought it would be.

blah blah blah

And now, these 7 posts have provided us with hype to his first content post of the game. Granted, it was like a day since the game started, but they make up 7/11 posts for day 1.

*cheers*

OK, here it goes. Apologies in advance for being a bit later than I said and for being long, as I'm going to try and hit on everyone. If I don't mention a player then assume a dead neutral read.

Xine

: No post so far, so no opinion. Not even a neutral here.

boberz

: Seems he's one of the early flavors. Not getting a real town read off him but also not going to vote for him. Seems that most of the votes on him are for things that are early game attempts to get the game started (however poorly(?) he did it). Some folks mentioned some contradictions about his RSV and they are valid but I'm still trying to figure out if they are actually scummy or a result of game start jitters/excitement.

Parama

: Also an early flavor. Managed to garner 3 votes at one point but, as far as I can tell, they were no-reason RVS votes. The only bells ringing here, and they are not very loud ones, is his logging off CES's and Lowell's votes to bitterness over prior games. I'd willing to let that go unoted except that in the same post, and it's his first, he votes the only wagon that is competing with him. Regardless of how he justified the boberz vote, it seems off. But not enough for my vote at the moment. Keeping an eye on him though.

DemonHybrid

: Pretty much boberz partner in the RVS discussion and pretty much the same reason I'm not going to vote him either. Both players threw out a lot of static behind the RVS thing and am seriously considering throwing out most/all of their posts in relation to that as unusable. DH does get a nice big brownie point from me because he did take boberz off L-1 with his unvote. Indicates that he is town that is afraid of a hammer by scum rather than scum looking for a quickhammer. I'd expect that if he was scum, he'd have left his vote there and fall back on blaming boberz play for his own lynch had he(boberz) been lynched and had showed up town on the flip, if he was questioned about it at all.

Charter

: Pretty neutral here. Don't mind keeping him around though. He has only 3 posts so far and that is a bit thin to make any determinations off of but I do like his Post #79 where he responds to a comment made by Weaps. He's thinking and not afraid to defend his reads.

Lowell

: He's being the Lowell I played with before. Unlike the Lowell I played with, he actually made a point though that seems decent about Slaxx. In Post 99 and Post 116. I may have to reevaluate my overall opinion of him.

xvart

: From my RVS you might get the impression I like playing mafia with him. You'd be right but he remains neutral. Thinking out loud here but, like Charter, I like the direction his thinking seems to be going in.

Bub/Weaps

: Dead Neutral at the moment. Only difference between the two is that Weaps has voted, Bub has not. Both strike me as players who are getting themselves oriented and getting into the game but I can't even make a guess on alignment.

Slaxx

: The person I will vote if my actual vote goes no where. Main reason is L-1 on a player he has made a zero case on. He doesn't even bother to borrow someone else's. Just uses a 'see above post' in his vote post and the 'see above' post is based on the 'possibilities' and go back and read the thread to find them. Weak, very weak.

Unvote

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum.

Here is why:
Votes Parama. RVS vote but it is the third on Parama. Then switches his vote to boberz after it looks as if the Parama wagon is going nowhere, making him 5th on that wagon but with no explanation. He did give a reason of sorts. Called it a *hop* . But gives no explanation for the *hop* . Even when asked for an explanation (by Bub I believe) he accuses Bub of being confused and still doesn't give an explanation. Just implies that the reason, a *hop*, somehow is all the justification that is needed.

My conclusion is that CES is going to be on whatever wagon has even the slightest chance of going all the way to a lynch. And he is going to do it with as little explanation and reasoning as possible.

A whole bunch of neutrals/undecided/weak stances. Oso does give a town read on DH and scum reads on Slaxx and CES, yet his reasoning I find poor for someone who has been here since 2008 against other experienced players; the act of wagoning without explanation fits the notion that townies don't have to worry about proving themselves town and instead scumhunt. They do as they please and do not care to conform to others' standards. See Bub for the scum reaction.

I suppose this is more of a you're wrong argument than a you're scum argument, but then the scum tell comes from Oso trying to onto an easy tell/lynch.

@Parama.

Despite the quote fail I think I can sort out what you want.

The short version, I think there is a high likelihood one of them is scum. Slaxx for his L-1 on boberz with basically no stated reasoning other than "I agree with the possibilities set forth." and not even attempting to recap those possibilities or even add any thinking of his own.

CES for his hopping on whatever bandwagon (whether you agree with you being a legitimate wagon or not) looks like it might lead to a lynch.

Of the two CES action are the scummier by the reason of no reasoning at all, not even weak reasoning.

Rehash blah blah blah

..
Oso, your thoughts?
..

I think there is a lot of posting Which is good but makes it hell to keep up on one read through a day.

Also, from looking at the VC list Slaxx posted it seems I am still the only person on CES. And I did a quick ISO and he hasn't posted anything since I last looked so there is nothing to add to my original reason for a vote. So I'll switch to my second scummiest suspect.

Unvote

VOTE: Slaxx

For the reason stated here:

..

Slaxx:

The person I will vote if my actual vote goes no where. Main reason is L-1 on a player he has made a zero case on. He doesn't even bother to borrow someone else's. Just uses a 'see above post' in his vote post and the 'see above' post is based on the 'possibilities' and go back and read the thread to find them. Weak, very weak.
..

There are quite a few posts that I haven't had a chance to read yet. I see that boberz has fallen off a bit and Bub and Slaxx seem to be gaining ground on him and I need to dig in and see what has went on in the last day or so. I have a couple or three hours before bedtime so I hope to give a more substantial post later on.

[non-game]I see Xine made an appearance. Hi Xine.[/non-game]

A promise for more content among game summary and a wagon switch running off the same reasoning two posts ago.

First off, can we lynch Bub for answering inside the quotes?(<-Joke, but not by much)

I'll say I like my vote where it is for the moment but on re-reading I see that there is also no current support for Slaxx lynch either. Seems I'd be better off looking at Nico's VCs than a players. In addition to my own concerns about Slaxx, several others have made their own doubts known. But I'll go ahead and drop if for the moment.

I've looked over the Bub wagon (for reason other than his answering inside the quotes) and can't find much wrong with any of the reasons.

@Charter, you voted Bub here Post #190

..
I support this Bub wagon, as well, since his double standard he applies to Slaxx reeks of scumbuddies.

Help me out and point to that? I've been going over Bub's posts. Some of them are big and I probably missed something you didn't.

Unvote

Not going to replace a vote tonight (too fried from a long day) but I probably will after Charter points that out. I've obviously missed something.

As to others in the thread, I think Parama did have a good point about Xine not L-1ing boberz and voting Parama instead. Unlike the way I took exception to Slaxx putting boberz at L-1, Xine actually had some pretty well thought out reasoning.

@Parama, If I read your reasoning correctly, you think that Xine FOSed a scumbuddy and voted a townie. Then bub came in chainsaw defended a scumbuddy as well?

Direct connection with Bub, and Oso only acknowledges the wagon. Only the second to last paragraph adds new thought, and it's weird. At first it appears to support Parama's points against Xine, then appears to commend Xine for his reasoning.

Then Oso disappears for the last ~4 days.

What this amounts to is Oso giving little effort towards scumhunting, just enough to dismiss accusations that he hasn't contributed.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Let's settle this Xine lynch for today. I think we all agree she's scum.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'll be asleep if you need me.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, so Xine lynch isn't happening? This is rather disappointing.

Which roles are commonly included in a setup with a tracker, or are there any?

And in my opinion, Slaxx's soft claim seems very...calculated.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

@charter, do you still think Socrates is also scum?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So you think there are 4 scum? How common is this for 12 player setups?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

That was legitimate question, not a deferential suggestion.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Anyone want to bother summing up the cases on me?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Cool.

I claim vanilla townie if it matters.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

New thoughts tomorrow; have been caught up elsewhere.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Yeah...I'm gonna have to take another day to sort things out.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I was going to come back with a mini-wall summary, but I am anger right now at what has happened in my absence.

xvart wagon, what the fuck?
DH and charter, what the fuck?
Slaxx, what the fuck?
Lowell, what the fuck?
Town, what the fuck?

Btw, CES was balls to the wall town.

Will elaborate after I eat.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh hey, I have a wall coming up, so don't hammer until then.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

First of all, I want to add that I'm reconsidering Xine as town due to the crap that has appeared since..., I'll say #453, thoughts as I re-read style.

#454-456, more

Xine lynch is dying.

#457

Hmmm. I am going through a giant battle of the ages in my head right now.

On the one hand, there's Xine who is very scummy and needs to be lynched. On the other hand, as much as I hate to do it, Xine's tracking could actually be useful, and it might be worth letting him live today since the roleblocker is dead, and he'll either get another result, or best case, soak up a NK. On the third hand, if Xine isn't scum, that throws a big wrench in this game, and the only way to know that is for the mod to post his role, and the sooner we find out he's town, the sooner we can figure out who has been pulling the wool over our eyes.

I might be willing to lynch Weapons instead of Xine, it depends on his answers to these questions.

Xine, why did you track Slaxx?
What do you think of Slaxx not going anywhere last night, but there still being a kill?
Why didn't you track Boberz or Parama?

A bunch of pointless bullshit, I could summarize it as "I have second thoughts; would rather let Xine live."

And then there are the questions:

1. Good so far
2. What kind of crap question is this?
3. Why ask this question when you have question 1? Why boberz and Parama in particular?

Xine is clam in #459-460.

#462

Xine is fine.

Soc, by association, is null now. He could have easily left his vote on Xine when she was L-1 and gotten away with it.

WOMC is slowly crawling up my scumlist, while boberz still has a commanding lead. Lowell also might be worth looking into.

My vote on boberz stays. I'm watching WOMC.

And DH decides to shift opinion for no particular reason. Cool.

#465, would agree.

#466 is somewhat overblowing it in the first line.

#471-472

Looks like xvart and Slaxx are both town. Both attack and defense are legitimate, imo.

#475

A mafia tracker in a mini normal. Speculate more.

Mafia trackers are in many mini normals. I hope you're not clearing him because of that.

But whatever,

unvote, vote Weapons

Cool. Except that the vote does not follow the logical train of thought in #425.

#476-488 is a nice wagon; I am unsure why nobody was like, "hey, these votes are scummy."

DH around this point is just rehashing why we should let claimed tracker live. Theory debating/method runs through #500.

#501, I claim. What would you all do in my situation?

#505, Parama's town now counts twice.

Back to #490 for a second,

So I guess people think WOMC was bussing when he was the second vote on my Bub wagon?

Yeah, he didn't push Bub much.

shows charter not reading the thread.

Also, irony.

A lot of blah blah blah up to #518

#519 speaks honesty. Boberz for president. UNVOTE: XineVOTE: Boberz

UNVOTE: Boberz

And earlier, at the beginning of the day I voted boberz and unvoted quickly, and no one bothered to ask why, but I'll say anyway that killing CES would be a terrible move for boberz because of the connections DH has pointed out. And by the way, DH's timestamps seem town at the beginning of day 2 (lol).

#522 is more town boberz.

#524, Slaxx responds predictably, in a town way.

#526, I agree with some of the content here, and a post of this magnitude earn good points, but I disagree with the xvart read since it's weak, and Slaxx, with one scum declared, does not seem to be able to peg a second scum, even without giving sections on DH/boberz.

#527, I read after posting thoughts on #526.

#530

Alright, going to reread Weapons v Bub....

unvote

There wasn't a lot to it in the first place. Need to appease right here.

#531, actually I feel pretty meh at this post, particularly the part where xvart references that his point on Slaxx would be a very weak case to start a lynch on.

Cool.

I claim vanilla townie if it matters.

Why did you feel the need to claim now? This is interesting since it comes right after talk of directing the tracker.

You can figure this out yourself. Put yourself in my situation and imagine.

#532, hey I agree with Socrates, lines 3-5. Reconsider mode.

Doing my own little mini case on Xvart..

206, @Slaxx "If Bub is town in this possible scenario then why do you immediately vote him in the next post? Are you voting for someone you think is likely town?" That's incrediscummy seeing as how Bub was scum. He sets up an attack on Slaxx regardless of Bub's alignment. Wondering how I missed that, and now I see his post is like 3000 words so I never read it.

Pretty short case, I think that's the only time he says Bub's name. That's unfortunate for him seeing as Bub was scum.

I also don't see a single mention of him by Bub. I think that's pretty good work Slaxx.

vote Xvart

*hop* (also ctrl+f bub in xvart iso; you'll find something extra)

#541, when was the last time DH added anything of value?

#542, Xine votes charter...interesting.

Don't care much for #543-550.

xvart wagon builds.

#563

Slaxx, I was checking out Xvart, and I don't see much scum there. But I did notice one of the (2?) places he mentions Bub, is in post #206, where he calls you out for calling Bub town in post #97, then vote him in post #98, I think your response to him was this:

-. Also reread my ISO. That is NOT the way it happened.

So I read your ISO, and, actually it seems like that is exactly what happened. can you explain this?
ps. good catch on him hardly mentioning Bub

I just noticed bub was a roleblocker. tracker claim looks worse.

I really would like to know why, and your post #558 does nothing to explain it to me, please try again

Boberz: If you feel your case on Slaxx was fabricated, why bother with it, the question presented to you was "what do you think of Slaxx?" not, 'can you present a case againt Slaxx?' So, really, what do you think of Slaxx?

Actually, posts like these from Xine are pretty town. There is original thought and taking a stand.

#566

I think we can get Weapons to vote for Xvart, and Socrates if he wants a prayer of not being lynched tomorrow. There will be enough town cred left for one more person, who is going to get it?

wtfterrible

terrible

#572

---

Boberz - you said you were becoming "quite suspicious of bud" here, but did not vote him and then later say you had another post that never showed up with some other piece of information for the case on Bud and your vote. What was that piece of information. I would think you would want to provide all information about your highest suspect to help convince others to join the wagon. You said you would rebuild that part of the case, never did, then couldn't remember what it was.

Also, Boberz - why did you not immediately vote me out of the gate D2? It seems I was the second likely scum in your opinion D1 and I don't see anything that would change your mind about me being scum with the overnight events.

Going back to the NK, I still can't wrap my head around why CES was killed. He wasn't really on to anyone but was still considered scummy by many. He would have made a perfect mislynch. It doesn't make any sense, and since he didn't ever build a case I'm wondering if the most obvious town people were to close to nailing the other scum and didn't want to draw even more speculation attention to the cases being built.

Vote: Boberz

xvart.

I missed this before dinner, so I retract my wtf. I get the reason for suspicion after this point, though I am not quite with it. xvart, why did you post the night kill speculation?

Nah. Awkward is when I came into class in like 3rd grade with my pants on backwards. Mod might be able to confirm that.

Slaxx is town.

Q.E.D.

#581

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

nty

I'm not currently motivated to look thoroughly through xvart's defense, but it's existence tends toward town; there are a good number over a relatively small time frame.

#611

vote xvart

back to lynch-1.

Retract wtf, having my doubts, etc.

Xvart, surely you can WIFOM better than that.

I thought it was pretty good WIFOM. His post made me about 99% sure he's scum, though.

Scum flailing. hammer. I don't want to hear a claim from him.

Part of why I see xvart as town.

#624 also is a good point which factors into my decision to still think xvart's town. Also, I get the feeling my opinion is unwillingly bent by wagons.

#625-end whatever

VOTE: charter

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

In retrospect, just ignore #631.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

How does that post make me town?

If you're talking to me, then the post I think you're thinking about is a joke.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Let's see some walls. DH, you're up.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Weapons: I did not like your wall, it seemed deliberately hard to follow...all those quote numbers, and not so much text. scum points

*facedesk*

+townpoints

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think we're in the "waiting for the day phase to end" phase of day phase.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Expected/10.

Not voting for Slaxx tomorrow.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Vote: Socrates

I am 90% sure him and charter are scum.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You know me.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You know me.

Is that a yes?

As in you know my role.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Which roles are commonly included in a setup with a tracker, or are there any?

And in my opinion, Slaxx's soft claim seems very...calculated.

[/quote]

Do you see the connection between these two lines?

I see boberz and Lowell as obvtown and have already given cases on Socrates/charter.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You're kidding, right?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Check #25, 28, and 41 in my iso. Stuff on stuff after that point will come later.

As for my defense, wth. I'm town?

Also, why are you only requesting reads from your targets? Everyone should participate, including you, who should set an example.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

F-ert poast:

From the top of page 26, #625, quoting for your convenience.

#626

I so guessed xine was an alt (I know nobody would believe me but I really did think he was scum

Lowell's fail regarding the scum powers (or alledged abundance thereof) actually makes him more town imo. Because it goes a bit further to betraying his lack of knowledge of how scum is organised.

Boberz: If you feel your case on Slaxx was fabricated, why bother with it, the question presented to you was "what do you think of Slaxx?" not, 'can you present a case againt Slaxx?' So, really, what do you think of Slaxx?

I said what I said because it is what I think. But it is the scummy bits of what I think. It felt fabricated because the standout bits were imo scummy but that does not mean he is the worst player nor does it mean I am going to go gungho in on him. I think he has the feel of trying to find scum and in that sense is townie but that is balanced by the few things I collated in my earlier post, making it null I suppose.

I guess no one reads my comments. Until people actually do, I will just stop posting.

I am carry on, but I am not sure what this refers to specifically.

Boberz made a case againt him too, something about being overquiet and wishy washy. Bob, you gonna jump on this wagon?

No my case was proved to be horse crap and this one is worse. The way he responded to my questioning earlier really felt like how I play against attacks by a newbie when I am VT in the road to rome.

Boberz - you said you were becoming "quite suspicious of bud" here, but did not vote him and then later say you had another post that never showed up with some other piece of information for the case on Bud and your vote. What was that piece of information. I would think you would want to provide all information about your highest suspect to help convince others to join the wagon. You said you would rebuild that part of the case, never did, then couldn't remember what it was.

I never remembered/found it. I am sure there was something. I did make this abundabtly clear later. It is highly possible I never pressed submit. Apologies for that but I did push the bub case and made the points I did have abundablty clear.

Also, Boberz - why did you not immediately vote me out of the gate D2? It seems I was the second likely scum in your opinion D1 and I don't see anything that would change your mind about me being scum with the overnight events.

I was bloody wrong. I dont think your scum. I should have said it earlier. Even after our argument I had some kind of 'gut' read. All that meant was that I was wrong but too stubborn to admitt it. I dont think your scum.

Xvart's night speculation was wifom and useless but not scummy imo. I still have two pages to read but I will FOS anyone who accuses this of being scummy in advance. (4 joke posts later DemonHybrid suggests NK speculation is scummy)

Because everyone that's had one has acted so freaking scummy.

Wepaons??? I still dont get that wagon btw.

---

Xvart appeared to give up??? anyone know his least favourite faction? he is that.

HONESTY. I still don't get my wagon either.

Here's the deal: I can't talk myself out of this. The fact that there are already people lining up to lynch me tomorrow probably means you're town and they are setting up me as tomorrow's lynch. There is no way to prove this thought ptocess to anyone. Everyone is going to see it as scum backing off of a wagon. That's fine. Its my fault I played that way. But I am not going to just hammer you under these circumstances now. If I'm right, that is two wasted lynches. So instead I am offering myself up today. Just give me a few days to reread the thread.

Who is lining up to lynch you tomorrow? It would be dumb lynching you over Xvart, stop with this nonsense.

Why is Xvart still alive?

What I am trying to say is as scum you should have been appealing to me because I was the one who held your fate, but instead you just nonchalantly passed it up and continued to scumhunt and fine connections for tomorrow. If it was fake it was impressive, or maybe I am just that much of a fool.

It was not impressive scumhunting by any measure.

Just to add some more fuel to the Xvart fire, I've played in like two or three games with him, he was town every time, and he didn't play like this at all. I'll try and dig them up...

Non-additive calls for xvart lynch. Cool.

Xvart's willingness to talk about the nightkill is looking bad. He's also posted significantly less than everyone else.

Vote: Xvart

Seriously, you're starting to talk more and all it does is detract from the scumhunting. Bad dog, no biscuit

This vote totally came after 3 other DH posts with no xvart post in between. 5 minutes since DH's most recent post. The timing of this just plain sucks.

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

Ohai there you have a reason to be doing this?

Hmm...
Part of me wants to lynch Xine the most regardless of claim.
Another part says that lynching xvart has good consequences and finding a scum for sure:
xvarttown = DH scum
xvartscum = Socrates scum

Want to say Slaxx is town though his play has been awkward for a while. Gut town read on boberz, Lowell and charter read as town no matter how you look at them (though both a bit misguided at times).

WOMC is probably town though it's a weird thing making me think that.

And that really covers all bases.
I say we go ahead with the xvart lynch because the conditional flip makes a crapton of sense to me. Hopefully it's the latter, since Socrates is scummier than DH due to interactions with xvart... he might be scum in BOTH cases, in fact.
Anyways, let's just get this lynch done and then watch how the rest of the game unfolds.

vote: xvart

I really don't care about hitting scum for sure today, since we still have 2 MLs to burn if need be (most likely not). Neither of the remaining scum is as obvious as Bub, which is unfortunate. It was actually kinda cute how obvious Bub was. Plus, I've seen chainsaw defending fail as a scumteall before (I used it in another game which lead to 2 MLs when there was 1 scum remaining in 6p :/ Not my best moment.)

I can believe the doctor claim despite this, also, bold is somewhat funny maybe considering the timing or even without, but I forget.

Slaxx's doubt is very townish.

#651

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

Ohai there you have a reason to be doing this?

Sure. The case Slaxx put forward on Xvart was a good one and the avoidance tell is one that resonates with me personally. As I had previously indicated, if support for the WOMC wagon had died down I would be wasting my time sitting on it and I considered a Xvart vote to be an acceptable alternative lynch to WOMC.

Screw it, shower to think --->

unvote vote Socrates

Prob the way to go for today.

Any reason other than the Xvart vote?

Slaxx's attitude about the Xvart wagon is hard to parse, and I think it would ultimately be a fruitless endeavor. If he is scum and truely believes that a xvart lynch would make his death inevitable, then derailing the xvart wagon is really the most reasonable long term strategy for him, but if he is town and his scum read of xvart truly is waning, then it would be hard for him to do anything else in good faith and he is caught between a rock and a hard place. I am going to stick with my previous read of him and say he is town.

As far as how I feel about the Xvart lynch right now, I don't think his responses to the wagon building on him sufficiently justifies the way this wagon is falling apart.

Partial gut, partially because I can't put a scum motivation (especially with Soc) into your last couple posts. I don't know why as scum you would be trying this hard to frame me. I mean if you're scum all this effort you put into the lynch was wasted, because I had/have hammer for a short period of time, I think. There was nothing else for you to do as scum except keep your mouth shut, because the more you talk the more it would clear me and incriminate whoever is left. Plus when you pointed out the thing with me directing the track I think thats way more likely to come from town.

The response to this is simple. Xvart is the third person TODAY to have been put at L-1, so why would scumXvart feel that his death would be inevitable? Furthermore, if he WAS to talk his way out of being lynched, the most viable way to do so is to spin a wagon off onto another player, i.e. you.

The fact of the matter is, if Xvart was scum, I can't see him acting in any way other than the way he is right now, other than explicitly giving up, which, as I said, he would have no reason to do.

A bit of context, ctrl+f xvart in Socrates iso before the above post:

I don't lynch people for information. I pushed hard for that lynch because he was scum, his claim was bullshit, and I was sure he was scum. Here, I'm not as sure.

I know you don't. Thats why I thought post 457 was weird.

Off the top of my head, I could see Soc and Xvart, since Soc is just being generically scummy.

Anything for me defend against?

I could see myself on the Xvart wagon if WOMC has officially stalled.

Boo. As promised:

unvote, vote:xvart

PREVIEW EDIT: I think this is L-1?

This pretty much speaks for itself. Back to #651, Socrates is just like, "Slaxx made a great case on xvart, I'm not unvoting despite what Slaxx thinks because xvart's scum." A lot of text for saying so little.

#654

Yeah, once Xvart flips scum, I think it has to be Weapons.

I don't know if anyone but me noticed, but Weapons's "case" against me actually has zero points that indicate me being scum and contains a lot of quotes of mine that he has added his own two cents to make my statement look bad. There was no explaining why any of the things he quoted would come from scum, which as I'm sure you by now have guessed, is because I am not scum.

Everyone reread and they can judge.

Inserting this here cause I don't know. Socrates/charter interactions, in charter's iso, in

#22

Alright, results of my reread.

Early game, Slaxx and Weapons vote for Bub, decent reasons.

I think it's probably unlikely boberz is scum, nothing he's done, but when he's put at L-1 for no reason, Bub ignores it. I would think if Boberz was scum, he would have said something, since he doesn't strike me as experienced enough to play it cool.

Oso is hella scummy with his reads in 123.

Xine's vote of Parama in 145 reeks of scum faking it.

Slaxx actually probably isn't scum. He's giving tons of town reads, all of which I agree with.

Alright, I'm just stopping at page 9, because I'm pretty sure that everyone that isn't Xine, Weapons, or Socrates is town. So I don't really care which of these three we lynch first.

I also don't think I saw Xine or Bub mention each other, pretty big point against Xine.

I didn't read like the last page or two that is known as the BATTLE OF WORDS.
I believe Xine has the most votes, and I believe him and Socrates to be scum quite strongly.

unvote, vote Xine

I'm ready for a hammer, preferably before he can claim so we can avoid the lengthy 'power role claim and discussion of whether we should not lynch obvscum just because he claimed cop'.

#29-30

A mafia tracker in a mini normal. Speculate more.

Mafia trackers are in many mini normals. I hope you're not clearing him because of that.

But whatever,

unvote, vote Weapons

@charter, do you still think Socrates is also scum?

Yeah

Man, I'm having serious second thoughts about not lynching Xine the more I think about it. The benefit of keeping him alive is extremely small compared to the benefit of lynching him.

#40

I don't lynch people for information. I pushed hard for that lynch because he was scum, his claim was bullshit, and I was sure he was scum. Here, I'm not as sure.

I reread Weapons and Bub. Weapons comes off slightly good, I didn't get much from Bub's posts.

To be honest, Xine and Socrates are the two scummiest. I really think that both of them are scum.

vote xine

Also inserting this because of context reference, #43

Doing my own little mini case on Xvart..

206, @Slaxx "If Bub is town in this possible scenario then why do you immediately vote him in the next post? Are you voting for someone you think is likely town?" That's incrediscummy seeing as how Bub was scum. He sets up an attack on Slaxx regardless of Bub's alignment. Wondering how I missed that, and now I see his post is like 3000 words so I never read it.

Pretty short case, I think that's the only time he says Bub's name. That's unfortunate for him seeing as Bub was scum.

I also don't see a single mention of him by Bub. I think that's pretty good work Slaxx.

vote Xvart

What a massive case upon which to repeatedly essentially call xvart obvscum on.

and in #42 and #48, these posts just reek of FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie.

On the flip side, in Socrates's iso, #10, 19, and 20 reference charter, and it seems very much like weak suspicion distancing.

Back to main.

There's a bunch of crap all the way to

#675

I disagree with stuff, but I'd be repeating myself.

#678

Xine appears to be honest, though I disagree with a lot, and am now too lazy to quote everything.

At this point, I'll just address posts by Lowell, charter, and Socrates for relevance, since I've made it pretty clear why everyone else is more town.

#706, 707

Charter. Does the stagnating game mean we're right or we're wrong?

Usually it means the town is right, since you don't have scumbags fueling the wagon and there's always clueless townies in every game.

no

I'm waiting for the day to end at this point, even reading back.

And we're there.

And we have start of day mehness.

#762-763

The Person I tracked came to see me. Would you like me to say who you are?

I wouldn't. Though I'm sure proving that you are in fact a tracker actually proves anything.

and EBWOP are neutral, but I'll get back to why Lowell is obvtown later.

#779

Vote: Socrates

I am 90% sure him and charter are scum.

I am 100% sure you are wrong.

There's really no way of doing this without megarolefishing, but demon, you need to claim your action, since frankly, I don't see what role you can possibly be that would have targeted Xine last night and you now think she is town, when there's a dead watcher, and Xine is claiming tracker. I would understand if you're a cop, but that seems highly unlikely. Plus, there's the fact that her being tracker has about zero connection with her being town, especially given her night choices are sketch as hell.

To be honest, now that we have claimed tracker, dead watcher, and claimed powerrole, we should just massclaim. The roleblocker is dead, so they can only pick off one person a night, and we don't want scum to be able to fake any actions later on.

Xine, why did you track Demon?

Eh

#816

To be honest, I looked at the first post to see what it said, but I don't think saying townie or vanilla means much in a game like this. Alright, the claim of doc is believable, though I seriously question you choice of Xine. That was a bad target to protect.

Sooo, I think that it's two of boberz, lowell, weapons, and Socrates... It's possible Xine is mafia, but a mafia tracker and roleblocker against just a doctor and watcher seems very unlikely. Time to go reread, YET AGAIN.

Xine, why did you track Demon, that doesn't make much sense. Socrates was the good choice of who to target, which we agreed on yesterday.

Also, just as an aside, Weapons's first post today looks mightily like bussing then tying me to Socrates to mislynch me the next day. I also just went and ISO'ed WEapons, and this jumped out at me.

Okay, so Xine lynch isn't happening? This is rather disappointing.

Which roles are commonly included in a setup with a tracker, or are there any?

And in my opinion, Slaxx's soft claim seems very...calculated.

His fishing question there is pretty megascummy. No one bit, and he later claimed vanilla. I dunno, just seems... Fishy..
Anyway, I want to hear who Lowell and Soc and Boberz are suspicious of before I reread and tell them who I'm suspicious of.

Why has charter not once voted Socrates, despite all the times he's called him scum?

And mind the subtlety.

Also, I'm town because effort.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I was going to do a Lowell iso, and realized that obvtown isn't the right label. Regular town makes more sense; probably CES's master town play was polluting the read, but in short, I think Lowell's town because of the terseness of his posts based on a confident playstyle; I find his posts to have more town incentive than scum incentive.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

What do you think of his switch to the bub wagon?

Town; bussing would've involved some attempt at reasoning.

Or his switch to the Xine wagon?

Didn't happen. He called Xine scum, but that was quite a bit after the wagon.

Or his switch to the xvart wagon?

Not good. Unceremonial.

Or his lack of a switch to your wagon?

Why would he?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh damn, he didn't vote Xine.

Apologies on that. Usually when you call someone scum, you vote for them though. Sort of goes great together.

Yeah, kind of like charter with Socrates.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh damn, he didn't vote Xine.

Apologies on that. Usually when you call someone scum, you vote for them though. Sort of goes great together.

Yeah, kind of like charter with Socrates.

So, it's okay when Lowell does it but not when charter does it?

No. Charter just did it to a greater extent.

charter's not the most town, but he's been scumhunting his ass off. There's a double-standard to this, you know.

Have I changed your opinion any?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Have I changed your opinion any?

No.

I was referring to myself in that question.

Even if charter did it to a greater extent, there is just so much wagon hopping, lurking and general scumminess that comes with Lowell that incriminates him so much more. There can be failtown, and then there can be scum. (I'm not saying charter is failtown all of the time, I just happen to think he's townish that has failed in that specific play.)

I mean, do you really think that Lowell hopping on the Bub wagon near the L-1 vote, then hopping on the Xine hate wagon without a vote (since it died down), then hopping on the xvart wagon near the L-1 vote "town"?

Weak opinions, weak attempts to pin suspicion. Use of WIFOM. "This is why I'm inactive" excuses. Subjective in who he finds scummy for the dumbest reason. Weak reasons to buddy with obvious town. A fucked up claim. And you find this town? Why, because he didn't suspect you when everyone else did? Because he weakly defended you? You do know that scum often defend one townie and one buddy at the same time, right? (when he defended you and I in that one post) And you do know that they will usually vote ONLY when it seems like they will blend in, no matter the alignment, right?

Have

I

changed your opinion on

him

?

No. Instead of looking only at what he has posted, I have looked at why he has posted what he has posted. You're behind the curve.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You uh....didn't reference yourself at all in #848.

Yeah, but still, that's what I meant. Would you answer that question?

And I think you have it opposite, Weapons of the Mass Construction variety. I am the one looking for reasons as to why he would post them and you're looking at those posts at face value.

Okay, tell me, what scum incentive do you find in:
Lowell showing doubt in his read on Slaxx without others addressing it?
Voting Bub for no reason?
Calling Bub dumb?
Testing Bub's Slaxx wifom crap? In addition, do you think Lowell really thinks this would be enough to gain momentum for a mislynch?
Not joining my wagon while joining the others?
Not joining in the boberz wagon in day 1?
Also, I just noticed that Lowell said he would not vote Xine on the offhand chance she was telling the truth. So there you go for that.
Saying Xine's tracker claim looks worse due to a roleblocker being dead?
Openly speculating about scum power roles?
Stating bluntly that scumhunting at all is not his style?
Claiming VT with two skills?

Can you think of town incentives for all of the above questions? How do they weigh against each other?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Can you think of town incentives for all of the above questions? How do they weigh against each other?

Not really.

Well there's your problem. There is a town and scum interpretation to practically every statement; what identifies their alignment is how they weigh against each other.

Yeah, but still, that's what I meant. Would you answer that question?

Specify this. What I meant is that since you didn't refer to yourself at all, I assumed this question was about Lowell. If it's about you, then in what context is it?

Right here. Right now.

Lastly, if Lowell flips town, what would be your scum team then?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Right here. Right now.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Do you think I am town?

Lastly, if Lowell flips town, what would be your scum team then?

Socrates, most likely. The second, I have to think about.

I'll wait for an answer.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Mmk. As things stand, I'm not going to convince you to change your mind, so I'm fine with a Lowell lynch.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I still think you're town; I've just given up trying to convince others you are town.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Nty.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Mmk. As things stand, I'm not going to convince you to change your mind, so

I'm fine with a Lowell lynch.

WOMC, seriously. I know you don't want to, but saying that you're fine with a lynch and avoiding a vote and saying he's town completely contradicts yourself.

If you think he's town, you should be fighting tooth and nail to keep him from getting lynched.

If you're fine with his lynch, you should hammer him.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

So which is it?

I never miss an opportunity to extend the day phase indefinitely. I think Lowell's town, therefore I will not vote for him. I am fine with his lynch in the sense that I have given up trying to defend him. It makes sense from here.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I can wait 12 days.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

UNVOTE: SocratesVOTE: Lowell

I think I've made my point.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh yeah, and I still think he's town, you realize that there's little point in defending him?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Would you argue against a river in an effort to stop it from flooding your crops?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, would you pray to the gods that the river would not flood your crops?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Hell let's just wait for the flip. I'll be clear by tomorrow.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Why?

Vote: Socrates

Also, itys.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Could WOMC's town outlook on Lowell serve to be scum knowing about his alignment and trying to gain townpoints by being the "told you so" the next day?

I'd prefer you look at the town incentive side of things this time. What makes my scumhunting effort worse than charter's?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Could WOMC's town outlook on Lowell serve to be scum knowing about his alignment and trying to gain townpoints by being the "told you so" the next day?

I'd prefer you look at the town incentive side of things this time. What makes my scumhunting effort worse than charter's?

I didn't accuse you of anything. In fact, going with probability, you probably were just keen on your read instead of scum knowing Lowell was town. You did not explain it very well, however.

Hear me out on boberz then. Tomorrow.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

We don't lynch on mylo. We wait for the doc to die. I am patient.

Vote: No lynch

This is 7 alive.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

In my opinion, scum thought they could manipulate you to help them.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

-You never fully explained your Lowell town read. Can you go into more detail about why you thought what you did and why it's not scum with a "told you so" ploy?

Easier question first. In short, I had a gut town read on him, based on the confidence exuding from his posts, but I felt I needed to elaborate more in order to change your mind.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

DH, what the hell are you doing?

Boberz = town, post #'s refer to iso, but this is mainly an overview:

#1 and bam, boberz is already town. Whether his arguments about RVS you find right or not, the fact is, he provided a catalyst to ending RVS, took on a bold stance, and spoke with a tone that meant business. This singularizes itself to confidence. The ensuing debate over theory I've already said is a you're wrong argument, not a you're scum argument. It's also of note how fast boberz was posting at that point, which, under pressure, is a town tell because he was able to spit out his arguments without worrying about slipping.

By #11, we get to anti-Bub interactions. I think DH thinks boberz is scum based on Bub's defending of boberz, but in my opinion, the recipient's actions are a better tell since scum can pretend to implicate anyone in case they go down. So at this point, boberz is chastising Bub for not reading. Then by #16, boberz comes up with a complete case on Bub, with reasons that are correct. What I find particularly town about this case is the multiple times boberz slipped in harsh remarks, like

Before I make my real post, however, the shower for me.

It was a long shower. In fact I think I have had three since this has been promised.

All that Bub has done since this promise was suggest CES was active lurking *cough*
And ask another question or two.

Bub is not actually contributing to the game just filling it with nonesense. The difference with him and the other 'lurkers' is that he is posting a fair amount and he seems to think (or atleast convince us that he thinks) he is contributing actual useful things.

which would go beyond bussing.

Also, the timing of the vote was rather momentum shifting (as was Lowell's, look at that).

Compare to charter,

Help me out and point to that? I've been going over Bub's posts. Some of them are big and I probably missed something you didn't.

How Bub went off on CES for opportunistic voting right after Slaxx put Boberz at L-1 for essentially no reason and Bub didn't mention that. That's just one reason I'm suspicious of Bub, I'm not muddying the waters with more trivial things though, that's indicative of them being scumbuddies.

Where the other references to Bub are repetitions of the first sentence. Then he's like, "obvscum," based on this one reason.

Okay, then boberz gets implicated with xvart over some stuff, but ends it with him backing off (#35), which to me, is reasonable and honest.

By day 2, #44 is indicative of town, because boberz has a very honest tone. He's disagreeing with a lot of things, popular or not, which makes him not go with the flow, which makes him stand out, which makes this not a scum-like action.

This continues, like in #49

I so guessed xine was an alt (I know nobody would believe me but I really did think he was scum

Lowell's fail regarding the scum powers (or alledged abundance thereof) actually makes him more town imo. Because it goes a bit further to betraying his lack of knowledge of how scum is organised.

Boberz: If you feel your case on Slaxx was fabricated, why bother with it, the question presented to you was "what do you think of Slaxx?" not, 'can you present a case againt Slaxx?' So, really, what do you think of Slaxx?

I said what I said because it is what I think. But it is the scummy bits of what I think. It felt fabricated because the standout bits were imo scummy but that does not mean he is the worst player nor does it mean I am going to go gungho in on him. I think he has the feel of trying to find scum and in that sense is townie but that is balanced by the few things I collated in my earlier post, making it null I suppose.

I guess no one reads my comments. Until people actually do, I will just stop posting.

I am carry on, but I am not sure what this refers to specifically.

Boberz made a case againt him too, something about being overquiet and wishy washy. Bob, you gonna jump on this wagon?

No my case was proved to be horse crap and this one is worse. The way he responded to my questioning earlier really felt like how I play against attacks by a newbie when I am VT in the road to rome.

Boberz - you said you were becoming "quite suspicious of bud" here, but did not vote him and then later say you had another post that never showed up with some other piece of information for the case on Bud and your vote. What was that piece of information. I would think you would want to provide all information about your highest suspect to help convince others to join the wagon. You said you would rebuild that part of the case, never did, then couldn't remember what it was.

I never remembered/found it. I am sure there was something. I did make this abundabtly clear later. It is highly possible I never pressed submit. Apologies for that but I did push the bub case and made the points I did have abundablty clear.

Also, Boberz - why did you not immediately vote me out of the gate D2? It seems I was the second likely scum in your opinion D1 and I don't see anything that would change your mind about me being scum with the overnight events.

I was bloody wrong. I dont think your scum. I should have said it earlier. Even after our argument I had some kind of 'gut' read. All that meant was that I was wrong but too stubborn to admitt it. I dont think your scum.

Xvart's night speculation was wifom and useless but not scummy imo. I still have two pages to read but I will FOS anyone who accuses this of being scummy in advance. (4 joke posts later DemonHybrid suggests NK speculation is scummy)

Because everyone that's had one has acted so freaking scummy.

Wepaons??? I still dont get that wagon btw.

---

Xvart appeared to give up??? anyone know his least favourite faction? he is that.

You can read that and feel the honesty slap in the face.

And really, most of the rest continues the honesty trend with proper tone to match.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So, I'm running with number one, and, some extra thinking I have to go with that, is that I HIGHLY doubt that an experienced player would have done that. I think that rules out Socrates. No killing as mafia is really a terrible play, even getting caught making the kill is better than no killing. (I understand how it looks like I'm trying to rule myself out using this, but that won't be the case)

What, nobody else caught how wrong this was?

Date joined, this site:
boberz - Nov 15, 2009
charter - July 12, 2007
DH - June 1, 2010
Slaxx - Jan 1, 2010
Socrates - Oct 9, 2009
Weapons - Jan 16, 2010
Xine - June 21, 2010

Of the non-prs, non-charters, there is a three month gap between the most experienced and least experienced. This is also discounting offsite experience, and IIRC, we haven't talked about that in this thread, which makes the quoted conclusion nearly as dumb as its implication.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

*facedesk*

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Do you think I would think Xine would track me when Lowell flipped town?

And how long has Socrates been in this business?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And this experience speculation is bullshit anyway. Socrates and boberz are apparently experienced enough to know that nk'ing is statistically bad; I've played enough games on various sites to know that it's bad, and I know Slaxx has played on EM for long enough to know that it's bad. So it's bad.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Can you just summarize why you thought he was town one more time?

*grumbles*

I felt a very strong town energy emanating from Lowell's spot at the bar. Translation: gut; also self-confidence read in Lowell.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

That just doesn't cut it for me. Why is self confidence a town tell to you?

Self-confidence in the fact that he was town. He didn't post like he needed to prove he was such.

Also, know I remember this:

Also, why does Lowell look townish? Again, explanation would be nice here.

This quote makes me confident that Lowell is town. Parama is also town for obvious reasons.

I would agree with DH that Bub asked a lot about why people were voting boberz, and though most of it was directed at CES, he was defending more than attacking, which is enough to revise my day 1 opinion.

Vote: boberz

*facedesk*

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, on page 37, I got really pissed, and hammered to prove me right. That probably wasn't the best thing to do, but with DH in ugh mode and Slaxx egging, shit happens.

PREVIEW EDIT: MY GOD DH, YOU'RE TERRIBLE AT THIS GAME. MY GUT IS ALL POWERFUL.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You know what would be hilarious? If DH was scum. That would be hilarious.

Right now, it's just plain sad.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You know what would be hilarious? If DH was scum. That would be hilarious.

Right now, it's just plain sad.

The only confirmed PR is a Watcher. Tracker claims. I wait to claim, everyone else claims Townie, and I claim Doctor. Doctor, Watcher, Tracker; completely plausible set of town PRs. So are you trying to push suspicion on me? Cause THAT would be funny.

No. I am anger.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, say I'm lynched, flip town, and there isn't something trolly like poisoner to screw things up. Who would you lynch then?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, say I'm lynched, flip town, and there isn't something trolly like poisoner to screw things up. Who would you lynch then?

Anyone but the obvtowns or bobz. I think bobz is fine despite what I blamed him for D2. I'd have to distinguish between charter and Soc.

So do you mean to say there are 2 scum or that Slaxx is in that case scum?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

No, if you lynch me, you will be in this situation.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

No, if you lynch me, you will be in this situation.

Funny, I remember talking about tomorrow, not now.

Stop avoiding the question.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Actually, everyone who wants to lynch me, same question, who are your next suspects?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

FTW.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Alright, why I think it's Weapons.
Early posts, he

subtly

defends Boberz some, with his calling Boberz frustrated town with pretty much

no justification

and questioning me when I vote Boberz.

@bold, no, that was pretty direct.
@italicize, I thought it was apparent to anyone who read his posts, #9 in iso in particular.

Also, Weapons was voting Bub from like his first post and didn't mention him again until after he got hammered, so it looks a bit like early distancing gone awry. That's another thing that had me thinking about the Bub selfhammer. I don't think he would have done it unless he thought it was going to buy his buddies town cred.

Failure to read the thread in making a case. As Parama nicely mentioned about,

page 9, #224

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

#232

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

Stating the issue in effect also influences it. If you had gone on doing the same thing, posting something like "I ask a lot of questions in my play," or just ignoring it, it would've earned you town points, but instead, it appears you conformed to the judgement of others, which townies do less because they are less worried about how they look in others' eyes.

#233

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

Stating the issue in effect also influences it. If you had gone on doing the same thing, posting something like "I ask a lot of questions in my play," or just ignoring it, it would've earned you town points, but instead, it appears you conformed to the judgement of others, which townies do less because they are less worried about how they look in others' eyes.

You still haven't answered the question.

#238

You still haven't answered the question.

You could infer a "no" from previous posts.

And Bub self-hammers in #301.

Starts out day two voting Boberz, but then switches to Xine when the wind starts blowing in her direction.

Then he spends a lot of time day two arguing for a Socrates lynch, the whole time his vote is on Xine and he has done ZERO scumhunting directed at Xine. He just hopped on the wagon and then starts slinging mud at others. It looked like he just wanted to lynch Xine, not that he thought she was scum.

Not my best moment.

Then there's his megarolefish post, post 474.

This is pretty ironic, y'know, with the whole "let's mass claim" thing.

And I was actually distraction soft-claiming pr there. I even put the

And in my opinion, Slaxx's soft claim seems very...calculated.

at the end.

Pretty much my vote on him boils down to not doing anything day one. Not doing anything day two, but go with the flow. Day three, does nothing then votes Lowell even though he's sure Lowell is town (which I find extremely difficult for him to be thinking, even more so when you factor in his alleged reasons for thinking it).

Vote Weapons

Hardly.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

UNVOTE: SocratesVOTE: charter

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

See it's shit like that that makes me want to lynch you more and more.

Lowell put NO EFFORT into defending himself and paid the price for it. If you are town, do your part. If you are scum, you're making this very easy, Weapons.

*facedesk*

I've said a long time ago that both Socrates and charter are scum. I don't see how you can deny this, though,

Also, Weapons was voting Bub from like his first post and didn't mention him again until after he got hammered, so it looks a bit like early distancing gone awry. That's another thing that had me thinking about the Bub selfhammer. I don't think he would have done it unless he thought it was going to buy his buddies town cred.

Failure to read the thread in making a case. [Even after he said he did after my wagon (#40 in charter iso)]

As Parama nicely mentioned about,

page 9, #224

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

#232

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

Stating the issue in effect also influences it. If you had gone on doing the same thing, posting something like "I ask a lot of questions in my play," or just ignoring it, it would've earned you town points, but instead, it appears you conformed to the judgement of others, which townies do less because they are less worried about how they look in others' eyes.

#233

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?

Stating the issue in effect also influences it. If you had gone on doing the same thing, posting something like "I ask a lot of questions in my play," or just ignoring it, it would've earned you town points, but instead, it appears you conformed to the judgement of others, which townies do less because they are less worried about how they look in others' eyes.

You still haven't answered the question.

#238

You still haven't answered the question.

You could infer a "no" from previous posts.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Looks like convincing DH will not be necessary.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Madness.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

DH changed his vote.

<-- shocked face

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I actually was the first vote. Xine's was the hammer.

Xine, track whoever you damn well please at this point. If charter flips scum, finding connections will be a bit tough.

Oh, and with the good possibility that I will die a horrible death tonight, I bid you guys farewell, for a 2nd time.

You know, at this point I think you just ignored everything I said today.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

This and this, though I guess the second one's more buried.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I actually was the first vote. Xine's was the hammer.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Okay, charter flipping town totally screwed up my read set since part of the reason I saw others as more town was because there was no room for them to be scum. I reviewed everyone, and Socrates/Oso easily remains the top scum candidate. Looking back, I'm returning to the Socrates/Oso/Xine pair that I felt was shockingly evident before we started leaving Xine simply due to her claim. The following sequence (#9-17) is still

really

scummy:

Welcome Socrates, why are you so sure that Parama and Slaxx aren't scum buds?
Parama: If I have this straight, your current case on me is entirely based on Bub buddying to me, is this correct?
I am trying to figure out why scum would kill CES, it seems that it would be easy to rally the town into lynching him, with his active lurking ways... so, who has reason to kill him? His suspect list included myself, Oso, and Boberz. of those 3, Oso actually did make an attempt to lead a wagon on him, and got nowhere, perhaps leading him to believe the opposite of my previously stated hypothesis, and thus choosing him for a night kill? hmmm... too bad this is not something Socrates can respond to. who else has thoughts on the night kill choice?

Night kill speculation by itself is not inherently that scummy, but the tone and extended theorizing sticks out harshly.

you guys are funny

At first the Xine wagon was cool, but now its popular so it sucks.

Setup speculation is so totally not a scum tell it's not even funny.

It is a new player tell

, and possibly even a mild town tell in the current site meta.

unvote

You busted me, yup, new...
so, do you all want a claim since I'm at L-1, or should I give it a min?

VOTE: Slaxx

I think this sequence is self-evident.

DH vs Socrates; Socrates sheeps Parama, null tell, based on this:

Actually, Socrates has a bad habit of always following my lead, even when I'm scum. See: NY114.
Admittedly, I caught 2 of the 3 scum on the other team in that game so

Anyways, Xine is teh scum.

Besides, He already mentioned it was a placeholder vote.

Back to other stuff:
WOMC tates that my night kill speculation post is compleatly devaoid of content, I guess I need to point out that I was at least hinting that I am suspicious of Socrates. Not enough to place a vote, but I'll be watching him very closely. Weird that he was the one who dropped his vote and defended the nutrality of my statement. I liked his eventual defence of that, But he's on my list.

Why did I vote Slaxx???
Because he soft claimed power role. (Tried to take it back latter,oops) I just don't like that. My vote stays where it is.

At this point Parama is reading town to me, and his free pass to Slaxx to just be scum really buggs. I see he has a reputation for being a good player, But this personal attachment is likely clouding his judgement

Not particularly bad *shrug*

No I'm a cop, just a tracker.

No, I did not breadcrumb
I tracked Slaxx, Who didn't go anywhere.

It seems awfully strange Xine voted Slaxx for little reason even after claiming to have found him to have gone nowhere. I know there's the whole sending partners to kill thing, but Xine jumped on this way too quickly and weirdly.

didn't think to
what do you mean?
You soft claimed power role

I thought flavor was the mods job, sorry if I'm being dense, I hate to really admit how new I am, and this has never come up for me before. oh well, being honest and giving my team honest answers/info is more important than looking cool.

Simple defense of being unawares. Easy to fall back on as scum.

I realize DH supposedly cleared Xine, but this is also possible if Xine is simply a mafia tracker. The way she handled her claim (not stating reports in the same line as the claim, not giving her report yet even today) looks like typical, not self-confident in alignment scum play. Her being mafia also explains the no kill, as if they killed DH, town would subsequently no lynch, and then when Xine did not turn up dead the next day, it would be rather obvious.

The ties to Socrates are rather obvious, with the whole episode where Socrates totally killed the momentum of the Xine wagon, and I've mostly gone over that, so I'm not going to repeat that. After that, he mostly just pushed xvart/called me scum a bunch/left us with a cliffhanger.

Now, with Oso, we have an immediate major scumtell coming out of the start of the day.

Oso stated only me as an fos, which indicates that he knows the game will end if I am lynched, a definite scumtell.

If you want my FOS first then I'll go with Weapons. I'm ISOing him now as I write this. Wanted to post and let you folks know that yes, I am here and and fairly well caught up.

Singular, when we know there should be 2 scum left.

And now I will destroy his case:

I'll make a case as to why I like Weaps in detail later in the morning. Quick reasons: Day 1 interactions with Bub (I remember that part of the game from before I had to replace out) and the way he does manage to slip the burgeoning wagon of himself yesterday and get it on to Charter.

Interactions with Bub: uh...no
Momentum shift yesterday: the town motivation in doing so is obvious; I was convinced he was scum, but probably tunneled him too hard

One thing that is ringing bells but I need to cross reference and confirm, is the posts he made trying to use anger and frustration to try and explain why he was the hammer on Lowell, a person he had mentioned several times was town. Reeks of scum trying to absolve themselves of responsibility for a lynch in a believable way.

I simply explained my motivations.

As to my second FOS, I'm hoping that Xine can help there and got a positive track off of someone last night or that she did indeed track Weapons to the kill. A lot of who I think the second scum is will be based off what she says.

Absence of a second fos.

As promised.

Here:

Okay, on page 37, I got really pissed, and hammered to prove me right. That probably wasn't the best thing to do, but with DH in ugh mode and Slaxx egging, shit happens.
..

Pretty much sums up what I think of the motivations for Weapons this game. From my experience, the best scumtell I have ever found is a person who tries and absolve themselves of responsibility for being in on a lynch (no matter what position, First on or Hammer or in between when questioned.). Being wrong happens, getting frustrated and angry happens but he has to qualify it by referencing DH and Slaxx. Had it been an honest case of being frustrated, he would would have, in my opinion, just went ahead and said "My bad..." and left it at that. Trying to spread the responsibility around is what makes the Lowell hammer scummy.

First of all, personal experience argument - easy to feign as mafia. Secondly, I simply explained my actions.

I can see he's frustrated though because he KNOWS Lowell is town but not from a gut read. Lowelltown is probably the most potent and effective weapon that scum can have if they can get him to endgame. Weapons really doesn't want to hammer him. That part is honest. He wants to keep Lowell as the game winner if possible. The fact that Weapons doesn't want Lowell lynched at that time is the only part of that whole interaction that comes across as genuine.

This is just wrong.

I want to keep this from becoming a wall but I do want to point out additionally about his voting record.

Lynch wagons: Bub,Lowell and Charter. (Scum/Town/Town)

The rest of the time he has his vote parked on people who have no chance of being lynched that day and frequently he is the only person voting that player (disclaimer:I just looked at the Nico Vote Counts and didn't dig into the individual posts looking for votes/unvotes so there may be times where he is not the only player voting another player for long periods of times but the VCs just make it look that way).

This is not scummy.

In any case, he tends (in my opinion at least) to find a person to vote who will not be lynched and only changes over to a lynch wagon when he has some sort of way to distance himself from the lynch. Frustration in the case of Lowell and I'm going to guess that even though he was first on the Charter wagon, he is going to try and find a way to weasel out of his responsibility on that by blaming the lynch on Charter himself rather than just admitting he was wrong.

This is also just wrong.

The Bub wagon he needs no justification for. He was on that early and there is really no reason to have to justify the lynch of a scum. Especially if you are on the bus just for the ride.

So I'm scum because...I was on the wagon early? What the fuck?

As to who was on the wagon for the Bub wagon Day 1, every player still alive except for Xine. I include myself because as I indicated in my last post, I'd have voted him at the end of the day to help reinforce the case I had hoped to build against Parama. So no help there for me figuring out who Weapon's/Bub's scum buddy may be from that alone. Need more digging and help for that one.

Hey, look who didn't vote for Bub.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Popcorn Slaxx.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

EBWOP: Oh right, Xine doesn't give her report until we've all given our foses. Ignore that part.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If it is evident with less commentary, then that's all the better.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

RAEG. I am pissed.

Probably wouldn't have gotten boberz though.

And, yeah, Lowell town.