Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[boberz]

Boberz isnt voting!!! But he is here.

[boberz]

Correct I no longer do.

vote Slaxx

Primarilly for encouraging the RVS which we all know should not exist really.

But also because he had second thoughts and doubted himself. It is like he was too scared to ask me to vote in his first post, but then plucked up the courage. Scum have more reasons to be scared than town so I reckon Slaxx is the nearest we have to scum so far.

A nice proper serious vote for you slaxx.

[boberz]

You think my vote was random?
And how do you expect to ever move on from the RVS if you do not poke and prod those who are trying to play properly (I credit you with that Slaxx).
Are wagons the only way to find scum? if not why wait for one?
---
Slaxx before you start talking about self meta pick any of my previous games and have a look.

[boberz]

Nothing else to say CES?

RVS ends for different people at different times.

It just shouldnt exist full stop. So I am not even having this discussion.

Why do you think that Slaxx asking you to vote is encouraging RVS, however?

Becasue two random votes had just been laid down (including one from himself) so I just assumed he was encouraging a random vote.

RVS wagons are the fastest way to leave RVS, not to find scum.

How about we just never enter it, shocking idea. And everything should be geared to finding scum. I have no objections to RVS wagons though.

[boberz]

But...it does

But it doesnt have to.

Assuming makes an ass out of u and me

Perhaps, what do you think he meant?

You're contradicting yourself a bit. You want to never enter RVS, but have no objections to RVS wagons?

If there is RVS, then RVS wagons are good. I prefer not having RVS and having nice big juicy proper wagons.

trying too hard to look town

No such thing.

[boberz]

Looking like town and -trying too hard- to look like town are two different things. And yes, you can try too hard to look town. That's why people say that certain statements or arguments seem forced.

Maybe... (enter a theory discussion here).... But there is no point in us discussing it. Needless to say I kind of disagree but not enough for it to matter.

But essentially we should all be trying to look town. And being forced and trying too hard mean slightly different things to me, but if you are using them as synonyms then carry on I can deal with that.

The opposite. Asking you to vote is actually promoting the END of RVS. Why did you think the opposite?

I still think he was asking me for a random vote, if you truly believe random votes are the way to stop RVS then we really need to go to MD. I do not believe he was asking me for a stretched forced real vote (what he got).

[boberz]

I see it as asking you for a vote so that he could comment on it and try to end RVS faster. Which he did.

He ended RVS? I am taking credit for it.

A vote was always coming in my next post. You really do need to look at one of my past games.

[boberz]

No, he tried to end RVS faster. Like I said: RVS ends at different times for different people

We interpreted it differently clearly.

[boberz]

Nothing more to say Lowell, you are not short of content.

[boberz]

My vote on Slaxx wasnt random it was thought through, although granted he may not be scum.

I am aware that we were going in circles between me and demon that was the point I was making. That it was a difference of opinion rather than something scummy, from either side.

I did not contradict myself. i dont like the RVS, but when it exists RVS wagons exist. I am happy to jump on RVS wagons if I think it will stop the RVS. I will do anything to stop the RVS. It is the most senseless part of the whole of RVS. It is not exactly a position I just invented for this game, I have thought through it quite a lot, I am hardly likely to contradict myself in the same sentence. Come on. Wake up. Turn your brains on people.

Parama you complain at us for discussing theory, but I actually stopped talking about theory in a post you quoted then put your tuppenceworth in. Hypocrite.

I actually agreed with a lot of what you said however Parama.

It's his first post. You're expecting an essay? I mean, this is Lowell we're talking about!

Worth asking

---

No, we should all be trying to catch scum instead of focusing on looking town.

Yes sort of but this is theory that you told me not to talk about. You then used it to sling mud at me.

---

You don't vote someone just because they like RVS and you don't. Otherwise your vote is an RVS vote and thus you are contradicting yourself. Oh look, there's that word again.

But I like voting remorselessly thoughtfully during RVS it screws with people's conventions. It wasnt a whim it was always gonna happen.

---

@Boberz: Was your vote on Slaxx random? If not, how could you make a serious vote after the person you voted for only posted twice?

It was not random (nobody's vote was random but that is beside the point) and IO can easily make a seious vote for somebody after two posts. That is double the number I normally require.

[boberz]

Parama wake up, I dont have time to post again, but think it through quickly.

[boberz]

Okay, I perhaps got a bit dramatic in that argument. Essentially the argument boiled down to three things I think:

1/ Theory and the consequent argument/reactions. But we are right to leave this alone now.
2/ Contradictions, which I shall answer individually in a sec but which quite simply dont exist and are people scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for real reasons to vote (not that I object to that on page 4 I suppose)
3/ A load of crap thrown at me by DH. Along the lines of 'trying too hard' and such like.

So the only things I actually accept is the contradictions:

First alleged example: RVS wagons

not actually quoting me shich does make this look bad, it is actually in seperate sentences in the original seperating the phrases somewhat]You're contradicting yourself a bit. You want to never enter RVS, but have no objections to RVS wagons?

I have no objections to RVS wagons within the ocnfines of RVS. They do lead out of RVS, but not nearly so well as my methods, which have worked, wuicker than normal imo.

-----

So if it wasn't random, then what was your reason for voting Slaxx?

Are you actually reading Bub?

It was because he demonstrated indecision and fear by posting twice rather than once.
And for encouraging the anti-town RVS.

(there will be a more outward looking post later I realise I have been a bit defensive and inward looking of late.






Second Allegded example: who ended RVS? Firstly it doesnt really matter, it was just in response to somebody claiming that RVS votes stopped RVS and crediting Slaxx. I take credit for it, but I credit Slaxx for 'poking and prodding those who are trying to play properly' which helped get us out of RVS. (But I did it first).

how do you expect to ever move on from the RVS if you do not poke and prod those who are trying to play properly (I credit you with that Slaxx).

It is clearly me giving credit where credit is due rather than crediting someone with ending RVS.

[boberz]

Tag fail. (Can that be fixed for me mod, to save that massive post twice?

[boberz]

I already told you posting twice is just how I post, it has nothing to do so with fear, bur you refuse to even acknowledge this because you are so desperate to justify your vote.

I accept that, I only repeated the accusation because Bub asked me why I voted for you (before that explanation was given). I then criticised Bub for not reading properly.

[boberz]

Tag fail. (Can that be fixed for me mod, to save that massive post twice?

Fixed.

Thanks

[boberz]

I'm noting berz' failure to acknowledge being at lynch -1.

I was not suprised I knew the amount of votes on me. I am not claiming it shouldnt be necessary. I still dont have time for a proper post yet.

[boberz]

I have become quite suspicious of Bub Buddikins.

The thing that spraked my interest was the need to repeat myself to him. About whether the vote was random and about the reasons for said vote. This was the primary thing dominating the early stages of the game (in fact it continues to be) so for him to apparently be scrutinising me showed a disinterest in the thread and the conversations within it. No need to scumhunt makes someone more likely to be scum. Simples.

So this led me to iso him:

It is essentially full of lots of questions, on the face of it I have no problem with this in early game. But the questions are not probing ones trying to find holes in arguments or trip up scum. But it is as if they are just there to work out what is going on, slowing up the game and clogging up the thread with repitition and irrelevance.

Before I make my real post, however, the shower for me.

It was a long shower. In fact I think I have had three since this has been promised.

All that Bub has done since this promise was suggest CES was active lurking *cough*
And ask another question or two.

Bub is not actually contributing to the game just filling it with nonesense. The difference with him and the other 'lurkers' is that he is posting a fair amount and he seems to think (or atleast convince us that he thinks) he is contributing actual useful things.

[boberz]

Lol, but those are terrible reasons.

Yes but better than 'vote boberz cos it sounds like roberz' or other such random votes. It was purely a way to stop RVS before it started and create conversation.

You repeated the accusation which means you still believed it EVEN AFTER Slaxx had already given this explanation. And given the terrible reason behind your votes, it's no surprise Bub asked you if you were serious.
P.S. boberz's post here looks a lot like an appeal attempt

I never really believed it but it was necessary to pretend that I believed it. I repeated the accusation because he specifically asked me to.

It wasn't a very substantial post, but still...

This was my point exactly.

[boberz]

He doesn't want to let off my bandwagon even though he doesnt seem as concerned with me as he does others, is the short explanation. Can't make it simpler.

But I have unvoted, and voted Bub???

Are you reading or determined on my lynch.
Xine's attack was rubbish and fill of suspicion on me but without any new or original points.
Should be able to post later.

[boberz]

You are right, one of my posts didnt come out yesterday. I made a detailed case and vote on Bub Buddikins. I will do it again in a sec.

unvote vote Bub

Sorry.

[boberz]

but first to answer things directed at me.

Why was it necessary?

Because if I had not made it look serious and defend it for a while it would have had the same use as a normal random vote, exactly what I was trying to avoid. It worked albeit by creating a large wagon on myself.

I am not a big fan of all these potential partnerships/teams being set up. It feels to me like people are just speculating in a bid to avoid actually finding anything original on me. If people think I am scummy they should make an independent case in day1 rather than linking players and creating a lot of hot air.

Boberz, do you really shower every 7 1/2 hours?

No I had showered twice in that time, but I just looked at the day tags at that point, saw it was two different days and assumed I had showered thrice. Semantics.

[boberz]

This feels quite strange (trying to remake a case in my mind I have already made if that makes sense) but here it goes:

My case is contextualised by this post here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2501437

After this I made a slightly smaller post that had another point (but I honestly cannot remember what it is, and I dont have time to iso him again properly) but most importantly voted for Bub. It never came out (perhaps I never pressed submit)

However since then I have noticed a couple more things about Bub's play:
Bub's accusation of Parama is poor by that I mean that I am not a fan of OMGUS (read the theory thread earlier I like it) neither do I think defensiveness is bad, especially if people are attacking you.
But also the actual content of the accusations and cases is very small. They are made to look a lot larger with quotes and repitition but it is still only paper thin content. SO it is a bit like active lurking, but there is a greater attempt than normal to actually look like he is contributing.

[boberz]

Reading this apparently I have about 7 scumbuddies. Ludicrous.

[boberz]

Bubs, if you really are town, WOMD is voting you because he doesn't want to go on the boberz wagon.

Also anyone notice how boberz has kind of died down and not offered much sense the wagon on him is off and the wagon on Bub is on?Something to note, although I have to problem lynching either of them today. It would give town hella lot of info either way.

Been busy, but I did have a couple of posts about Bub, that were of note I think. It is quite hard to match the extent of posting I had at that point.

[boberz]

Xvart is flying under the radar somewhat also.

You're going to have to better than that; especially considering your previous posts.

This was a bit hypocritical because at this point xvart had added nothing to my wagon other than agreeing with others that I was discussing theory and had made contradictions. He had said nothing of anyone else, other than throwing a wishy washy point on slaxx and fosing him in the very same post.
He does then go on to scrutinise slaxx however.

For someone who says it doesn't really matter who ended RVS you sure go out of your way to say three times that you were responsible for it. Do you think people that "end" RVS are always town?

This is the sort of comment that was a bit dodgy. He had earlier moaned at me for being too theory focussed and now tries to draw me back into this discussion. I felt this was done a few times by a few people. It is as if he is trying to make me look scummy, rather than assess whether I am scummy.

Xvart also spends a large amount of time over quite

[boberz]

How are those questions going to help us find scum Bub? Honestly?

[boberz]

I want to see the answers, to those and lots of other questions too, like the onesBoberz was deflecting the answers to.
Slaxx appears to believe I am scum, is this true?

Which ones? Even Parama accepted I had answers the things he had wanted me to. Did I miss something?

[boberz]

an actual question, or is it rhetoric with a question mark? in other words, are you actually hoping for a real answer from bub?

I am waiting for atleast an acknowledgement. He should have some method to his madness and cannot get away with just asking questions for the sake of it.

[boberz]

I don't really get why xine did not vote for me earlier but did on page 10. I don't see any new case on me. Only a quote of me prodding Bub and an allegation I avoided questions, something that had already been dismissed by Parama. But apart from that I do not see much wrong with Xine. Much of the case comes from supposed scummy links with me but as I am not scum (from my point of view) I dont accept these.

[boberz]

Please elaborate on how I am "flying under the radar."

Doing a scattering of vaguely suspicious things without attracting much attention (positive or negative) around yourself.

1 Other than in the same post right before this quote I stated my reasoning for keeping my vote on you, which others had not mentioned yet. It should also be noted that the post you are referring to was my second post of the game, so I apologize (not) for not having a solid set of reads down in the first 23 minutes of the game. And since my second post came nine hours later your attempt to call me scum fails. My second post (the one in question) was my first real observations of the game, ten hours after it started.
2 I actually haven't FoS'ed anyone this game, but I'm sure that's just semantics since I called him suspicious in my second post of the game for insinuating that non posters in the first few hours of the game were scummy.
3 Once again, you'll have to look at post time. When I posted I was catching up and my original comment about people claiming responsibility for ending RVS are just looking to score town points and therefore scum, was still true, since after my second post where I explained that line of thinking, you mentioned it two or three times more, which is what I pointed out and asked about. So, what is the point of continuing to take credit for ending RVS after it has obviously ended? How does that help you find scum?
4 Can you finish this thought, please?

1/ It was several pages into the game, and other people were coming up with original points and ideas. If it was too early in the game for you, then it was too early to be calling other people out on it, that was why I considered it hypocritical.

2/ Granted there was no official FOS that was my mistake. But he still held that second position on what I considered a slightly wishy washy point. But as I went on to say you did go on to scrutinise properly so I do not have much of a problem with this after all. But it was one of the things that made me look closer at you.

3/ you successfully avoid the point here. I am suggesting that you drew me back into theory something that was used to smear me. You are not the only one guilty but it is this rather than the specific RVS discussion I have issue with. Since you ask about the RVS ending howerver; I originally claimed credit because credit had been given to someone else and I was slightly shocked and worried about the extent to which the thread had been misread, I only went on to discuss it further when it was questioned attacked etc... I refute that I pontificated over the issue with no cause. I was under attack so responded to the points my attackers made which included RVS/ending thereof.

4/ Yes, sorry. I was suggesting that you spent a long time over relatively unimportant things, I would include the discussion of RVS but for a different example:

Why didn't you say this the first time? Also, the fifth vote? Not the fourth? Is the fourth vote not a bandwagon? Is the sixth vote to late? You make zero sense here.

I think it is obvious he would have put the fourth (maybe not the sixth) but any bandwagon vote in, it just happened to be the fifth. It is actually quite obvious, I frankly dont believe anyone who misundestood CES there and it was just a useless point to be making. (this goes for all your bandwagon discussion of CES there)

[boberz]

And I'm flying under the radar because nobody has called me out on these so called vaguely suspicious things? That makes me scummy that others aren't commenting on my vaguely suspicious intentions? Or is this just a way to make you more town because you are finally calling me out on my vaguely suspicious tendencies when nobody else has?

I didn't say you were suspicious for flying under the radar, I merely requested that others dont let you fly under the radar. Please don't start misrepping me.

So I needed to post original content in my very first post of the game instead of posting my original content nine hours after the game began?

But it is the fact you made a hypocritical statement that I dont like. I am not commenting on whether you did or did not contribute at that point or later. but at the point you were criticising others you had also done nothing.

I didn't understand the connection to the next sentence. But I don't understand the accusation of being wishy washy and then saying I follow up with the proper scrutiny? Isn't that a little wishy washy?

I am prepared to say I made a mistake putting this into my original accusation, you are right. However it still does explain (rightly or wrongly) why I first took a closer look at you.

You don't find the statement about placing a very specific vote on a bandwagon just because he wanted to bandwagon intriguing in the slightest? I find comments like this worth at the very least a minor line of inquiry. I don't see why someone who is admittedly bandwagoning just for the sake of bandwagoning would specify a particular vote on a bandwagon. There was obviously an intention behind the comment, and I'm trying to parse that intention out.

I am acutely aware I may be stepping on CES' toes here and I dont want to take away a line of inquiry for you or anyone else. But you included three quotes on this and made a fairly big issue of it when (as far as I am concerned) his meaning was obvious.

[boberz]

Is that usual?

[boberz]

You may not have said it but the implication was clear. I don't often see people being called out for flying under the radar when the poster thinks the person is town. And the observation you made about me doing vaguely scummy things seems to be some roundabout way of calling me scum without actually flat out calling me scum.

No here you are wrong. I am suggesting you are quite scummy. But not because you are flying under the radar. I am trying to suggest that since you are flying under the radar it is worth me pointing out a few things... (see rest of that post)...

That's just the way I do things.

But you just said it was a minor line of inquiry. You either make it a fairly big issue or it was a minor line of inquiry. It cannot be both.

I don't understand the hypocrisy. I was telling him to chill out since he was calling people out for not posting nine hours into the game. I didn't say he wasn't posting and therefore scummy.

You're going to have to better than that; especially considering your previous posts.

you were not telling him to chill out, you were calling him out on not providing enough content.

[boberz]

Why are people negogiating over wagons and whether they are going to wagon etc etc.

I have no problem with a hammer, but we have no rush to get people to hop on wagons halfheartedly just for a lynch.

[boberz]

Fun fact: I'm not reading the boberz-xvart argument

I sensed people weren't. Why not? There might be something revealing in it.

[boberz]

Woah, another blatant misrep. I did tell him to chill out, and I did not call him out on not providing enough content. Here's the quote for your reference:

Ok maybe I got lost in the conversation (it has been rather longwinded) but is this not a bit hypocritical then?

You're going to have to better than that; especially considering your previous posts.

This surely is calling him out for not contributing, it is certainly insinuating it.

---

The rest of your answers I can accept, but don't really like still. I feel like I have been misrepped myself infact, but I cannot work out how.

[boberz]

What, claim mason then self vote???

[boberz]

He claimed with you! I thought he was talking to you. Either way he sounds a bit strange, it wasnt even a proper claim.

[boberz]

I don't really get why xine did not vote for me earlier but did on page 10. I don't see any new case on me. Only a quote of me prodding Bub and an allegation I avoided questions, something that had already been dismissed by Parama. But apart from that I do not see much wrong with Xine. Much of the case comes from supposed scummy links with me but as I am not scum (from my point of view) I dont accept these.

Are you being deliberately dense? go read post 253, I very clearly explained myself. I did not attack you here for avoiding Questions from Parama, but for interfering with a line of questioning from bub to CES. BTW your attack of Xvart is horrible, if there ever was a case on him you have totally destroyed it with your terrible interrogation.

I did not even realise post 253 was a criticism of me. I asked Bub for reasoning, he failed to give it I can only assume he had none. Now with his self vote (hammer I think) and random wifomy claims etc etc it is safe to assume we did hit scum. SO I feel no remorse in criticising him for both his methods and his achievements.

I did not deflect questions, certainly did not interfere with the answers themselves. I attacked the questions and the motives behind them. Bub also failed to address this.

I have not totally destroyed anything, if you think there is a better case to be made on xvart then make it, don't criticise me for making a case I believed in. I accept the attack pretty much came to nothing and did not hold up to scrutiny but I have not prevented any future case from being made. But if you believe he is town this should be a good thing for you surely?

---

Unless I am very much mistaken he did just self hammer, without even claiming properly.

[boberz]

I dont have time to post properly now, or indeed tomorrow (

@mod

possible vla till monday because I am moving house tomorow).

I was always most suspicious of Bub (even during my xvart attack) and I honestly did think I had already voted and had fullyintended to when I made my first post. I still dont quite knowwhat happened, but I realise how it looks suspicious.

I was not trying to wifom suspicion on slaxx, I was merely suggesting that Bub had not claimed mason with slaxx rather he was talking to slaxx. So I was actually removing the wiifom as best I could. But it is worthless us discussing this because it will draw us into more wifom.

What are the points on oso (and his replacement) please?

Parama why xine? I understand you have a case outstanding and made some linking tells with BUb, but I would like you to present it again so I can see it in the light of day2. (I am basically asking what is the most relevant still?)

[boberz]

Well the player spot has two people suspicious of it already today and I dont know why.

[boberz]

Xine wagon looks too popular for me. (maybe that is a fallacy?) but it seems a bit strange to me.

Further I dont see why night speculation is scummy, it is bad and wrong and not usefull but I do not see why it is scummy, worth three extra votes.

VLA till Monday, sorry. Moving house. Even if I dont have internet by then I will find a starbucks or something.

[boberz]

where's boberz

Brighton, I moved house this weekend

Dont have internet at home, but do have some nice local pubs I can frequent with Wifi (catching up now)

[boberz]

Ok first a scattering of thoughts as I read throught he last fivve or so pages. Then I purchase another drink. Then I answer the question.

[boberz]

WOMC made a massive wall on Oso (409), am I correct in suggesting that in summation you think Oso lurked. In which case I am prepared to agree but think the case is a bit weak. The socrates case seems largely built upon the 'sheeping of parama', I saw it as a bit funny but null. Not something I would do but not something I think betrays a scum allignment.


Slaxx case seems to be that he softclaimed a PR along with a few other things, but that seems to be the thing that had people incensed.

Xine claims tracker. A fairly easy claim, that quite often keeps people alive. Lot of people accuse it of being quite weak (particularly slaxx). It was quite weak indeed howwever his answer about voting slaxx because he softclaimed actually makes real sense, I would question more whether it would come only from a tracker I think scum could have made the same logical jump if I am honest. However I get that people want to test the claim rather than just hope so I am happy to go along with that even though I from the charter school of lynching scummy people.

I had obvious connections with Bub apparently. If that means I correctly read Bub as scum despite lots of people being suspicious of me then I am guilty as charged (maybe I am slightly better than you are giving me credit for) but any scummy connections. I dont think so, care to elaborate Demon (maybe you do still rereading).

I dont fully get the weapons wagon either!

[boberz]

It seemed to lose momentum very quickly as well...

Makes him look more town imo.

[boberz]

Slaxx.

I do not see his softclaiming, nor did I read anything as softclaiming (even now I have read it again). However now he has admitted it I am prepared to accept I was wrong on this. O do not think the idea that two players are alledgedly tunnelling on you is reason enough to softclaim, and I dont like how that went virtually unquestioned. He addmitted softclaiming.

It does also seem slightly scummy that he questioned why a tracker would pick him to invetigate. Of all the questions that could have been made about the claim he chose something that apparently he doesnt credit Xinescum as being able to do. It is a bit fishy.

Also Slaxx' most recent post is a bit waffly to me. Depending on how he spins it later it could mean he is naturally suspicious of Parama but he is also raising a question over the speed of the wagon meaning he can spin it in the complete opposite way.

One other thing that strikes me, upon a brief flick over his latest posts was his speculation over the targetting of the tracking:

I was also thinking about town governing the track, but then scum knows who to give their nightkill to right? I say leave it up to Xine.

The way slaxx talks here he seems to

know

exactly how it works and he seems to

know

that we were headed to a mislynch aswell.
I am by no means saying that these things werent the case. But some mafia groups have leaders who have to submit the NK, others have a group submission, (this wouldn't be the case if we have a tracker admittedly but this is far from confirmed). Slaxx seems to know that mafia choose who submits it. Furthermore he seems to know that weapons was goiong to be a mislynch and that there would still be mafia left to choose between (assuming three scum). It just seemed very strong assumptions he made without even pointing to the assumptions he was making.

---

However whenever I am asked to do this sort of thing I feel that I am being asked to fabricate a bit of a case. I am not safe on Slaxx but reading this post I feel that I am giving the impression he is a major scum suspect for me. Tis Xine who I am still suspicious of most and before really elabortaing on others I do need a proper rereading.

[boberz]

Good to hear, I may make it tomorrow, if not it will be wednesday. Hopefully access at home soon. It will not be lurking I will try and post properly (as I think I did today) when I am in.

[boberz]

I am in again rereading, then responding to anything at me directly, then will tell you my views and in that order. (I am drinking again to warn everyone although not so much as to it to make my arguments less coherent I hope)

[boberz]

I so guessed xine was an alt (I know nobody would believe me but I really did think he was scum

Lowell's fail regarding the scum powers (or alledged abundance thereof) actually makes him more town imo. Because it goes a bit further to betraying his lack of knowledge of how scum is organised.

Boberz: If you feel your case on Slaxx was fabricated, why bother with it, the question presented to you was "what do you think of Slaxx?" not, 'can you present a case againt Slaxx?' So, really, what do you think of Slaxx?

I said what I said because it is what I think. But it is the scummy bits of what I think. It felt fabricated because the standout bits were imo scummy but that does not mean he is the worst player nor does it mean I am going to go gungho in on him. I think he has the feel of trying to find scum and in that sense is townie but that is balanced by the few things I collated in my earlier post, making it null I suppose.

I guess no one reads my comments. Until people actually do, I will just stop posting.

I am carry on, but I am not sure what this refers to specifically.

Boberz made a case againt him too, something about being overquiet and wishy washy. Bob, you gonna jump on this wagon?

No my case was proved to be horse crap and this one is worse. The way he responded to my questioning earlier really felt like how I play against attacks by a newbie when I am VT in the road to rome.

Boberz - you said you were becoming "quite suspicious of bud" here, but did not vote him and then later say you had another post that never showed up with some other piece of information for the case on Bud and your vote. What was that piece of information. I would think you would want to provide all information about your highest suspect to help convince others to join the wagon. You said you would rebuild that part of the case, never did, then couldn't remember what it was.

I never remembered/found it. I am sure there was something. I did make this abundabtly clear later. It is highly possible I never pressed submit. Apologies for that but I did push the bub case and made the points I did have abundablty clear.

Also, Boberz - why did you not immediately vote me out of the gate D2? It seems I was the second likely scum in your opinion D1 and I don't see anything that would change your mind about me being scum with the overnight events.

I was bloody wrong. I dont think your scum. I should have said it earlier. Even after our argument I had some kind of 'gut' read. All that meant was that I was wrong but too stubborn to admitt it. I dont think your scum.

Xvart's night speculation was wifom and useless but not scummy imo. I still have two pages to read but I will FOS anyone who accuses this of being scummy in advance. (4 joke posts later DemonHybrid suggests NK speculation is scummy)

Because everyone that's had one has acted so freaking scummy.

Wepaons??? I still dont get that wagon btw.

---

Xvart appeared to give up??? anyone know his least favourite faction? he is that.

[boberz]

So in conclusion xvart lynch is crap. He has shown nothing scummy other than ignoring a scum. Well bugger me that is nothing in the context of the game.

I am dissapointed Xine is not the lynch of today but I realise that due to connectivity my views on thsi have been hidden:

*I feel there was a tunnelled attack on me to try and protect Bub. But I sense this point has been done to death.
*Tracker is not exactly a hard claim to make.
*An experienced alt didnt breadcrumb (I am not a meta expert) but it felt he was waving the newbie flag loud and proud when he claimed not to have breadcrumbed. (and on the flavour for that matter). Also surely an experienced player tracks me in his situation day 1. I essentially dont believe his claim truth be told.

---

Sidenote: I hate scum getting away with an extra day just because of a claim like that.

[boberz]

boberz:
I almost never breadcrumb and I'm somewhat experienced.
In contrast, Andrius has been breadcrumbing since he started playing mafia

It Isn't so much the fact that he didnt breadcrumb that is only meant to be a tiny part of it. I just feel that I had given him a bit of a newbie get out card from a few things. I am not suggesting that only experienced people breadcrumb etc etc but I am trying to say that the spot has a higher propensity to breadcrumb as an experienced slot. (I am rambling now.)

WOMC/Lowell/Boberz/Xine

Care to take a stance on the Xvart that involves more than a yes or no?
Care to out some FoSs/Towntells?

Xvart wagon is utter crap. His responses to my questioning earlier felt like a townie to me. It was uncanny hoe much he felt like me when I get a weak attack thrown at me. Elements of gut, granted, but I do not think he has done anything that bad at all.

Xine isn't an alt (unless a very elaborate one lol ). Xine and Ythill are married and I think she just forgot to log out/log in on a home computer. Or at least that is how I read her post

---

I notice parama is doing a lot of thinking and changing of mind. I dont know what to make of it it is like every second or third post. NOt saying this is scummy at all btw it is just something I have noticed.

---

I enjoyed this comment: "Boberz for president."

---

Slaxx seemed to turn into a schemeing bugger while I was away. There seems to be loads of stuff he refuses to tell people.. (Still at observation stage more to come later I hope).

---

you can't deny that he pushed an xvart lynch when and only when it seemed opportune

Go away I made one case and followed it through for a page or two. The idea I was trying to get him lynched really is stretching it. Especially considering the extent to which I was flailing around under intense scrutiny that day.
I was always most supicious of Bub, the reason my vote didnt move. I did my bit on that wagon and was looking for someone else although found the wrong person.
Also bugger me it would be oppourtune now wouldn't it (or atleast last time I popped in) to still have a scummy read. But I admitted what I had was little better than gut and through the game it has shifted solidly town.

Here's my scumlist.

Most town to most scum:

Xine, Slaxx, Soc, charter, Parama, WOMC, boberz, Lowell, xvart.

Take my name out inverse it and you have mine (not exactly before someone becomes a literallist). I do not comprehend how Xine is your most safe!!! We are reading different games here.

Xine senses he might earn some townpoints off Demon if he slightly suspects Lowell. I am really not happy with Xine still.

---

No need for pictures Xine I just plain misunderstood. (not that I am trying to suggest I am disinterested in your lives of course )

---

Caught up (sorry if these catchup posts are hard to read I try and make them as accessible as possible but it is important to my inderstanding the game.)

[boberz]

I feel silly that I dont have a place to put my vote and I suddenly realise I am one of charter's clueless townies .

That said I really do think Xine is scum so sybollically at least I will

vote: xine

I asked a while ago (Monday I think) for what the Soc case actually was I got virtually no response so I didnt take a second look. Suddenly the case appears again as a failsafe. I do not absolutely hate it, but I woud like reasoning however I would be prepared to do this if it avoided the Xvart lynch I do not think it is xvart.

Slaxx is currently unreadable to me. He is making selfsacrifice pledges which I hate. He is accusing people of being tunnelling townies or scum when to me they are nontunnelling townies. I am aware that my case felt a bit of a facrication earlier but the point about knowing the mafia setup was a valid one and I would kind of like my earlier case answered. (perhaps me pointing towards it's futility made it even more impotent than it already was).

I can't believe Xine survived this either.

(I would probably have joined the slaxx wagon if Xine wasnt on it.)

[boberz]

I want to know what xine found as well???

But to get the ball rolling

vote xine

Reasons pretty much as before but we are getting ever nearer crunch time there is only so long you can let someone live.

[boberz]

I am now fed up of xine. He has now half claimed whatever he is claiming. It just feels really contrived.

[boberz]

Demon?

Lowell am I correct in thinking you think Xine is a mafia tracker?

[boberz]

Xine is town.

Why? confused...

[boberz]

Also I cant see your day 2 case because we are into day 3 and day 2 was long.

[boberz]

Xine is town.

Why? confused...

Hang on I just caught on

unvote

.

Ignore this DH.

[boberz]

If the "?" was directed at me then I '?' the '?'.

[boberz]

Townie for me.

[boberz]

I am reading and stuff but I have a sort of VLA to my brain capcities untill saturday. Will try and do a bit better on friday. Real life, sorry.

Not really sure why DH was quite strong on me earlier in the day making me claim last etc etc. Then lightens up for little reason.

[boberz]

Boberz if you're trying to make a case on DH, just skip it.

I am not.

[boberz]

I am aware Lowell's iso looks like it hasn't produced much info and scumhunting and he hast. But as I understand it this is just his meta.

I dont get why xine is confirmed at all and we are too close to the end to start playing games with claimed PRs.

I am a bit confused because people keep claiming other people are obvtown/confirmed and I dont get it. Like why is Slaxx town necessarily? I was quite suspicious of him on previous days and suddenly he is town I am very confused.

---

Didnt intend to quicklynch but neither am I fundamentally opposed to it.

[boberz]

I am so confused now it is unbelievable

[boberz]

Sorry completely out of access at the moment, correcting now. Hopefully going to post properly today.

[boberz]

Erm a no kill seems a really strange decision, don't get that at all. But my head just fills of wifom when I try to analyse it so I will not. But I am now prepared to accept that Xine is more or less confirmed, there is no value in a nolynch as xine scum.

But even number of players this close to endgame:

vote nolynch

[boberz]

When did I say there were 4 scum DH? I think I suggested there were an even number of people meaning odds work for us to nolynch (and I voted so).

I also think the argument about whether NK speculation is wifom in this circumstance or whatever else that is being chatted about is surplus to need completely.

[boberz]

boberz:

-What did you mean when Lowell's scumminess was "just part of his meta"? Do you have any examples?
-Who do you think is likely scum and why?

I meant that it would appear that he has been known to be lurky and obtuse and against conventional wisdom. But I have no examples it is just a feeling I had picked up throughout the game. But I saw no valid case on him whatsoever, I am fairly certain I said so as well.

I think that targets are narrowing and we will find scum but I have been thrown off by xine not being scum 99% and that alledgedly confirming Slaxx (not quite sure how but everyone has accepted it so I will assume my bad) who was my second suspect.

I assume it is 2 of charter soc and weapons. Soc has perhaps been the guy everyone has suspected throughout. But on numerous occasions I have asked what this wagon was about and never received a satisfactory reply.

[boberz]

In which case I am wrong.

unvote

Sorry completely confused now. I thought there were 6 for some reason, apologies.

Now rethinking again. Why was nolynch going to happen with 7 anyway? (ie why was it even mentioned I dont get it.)

[boberz]

We started on even numbers that is what has confused me. No worries all and apologies for the confusion.

[boberz]

Okay, maybe I have pro weapons bias because he defended me, but I think it is more likely to be Soc I think. He just seemed to be the guy who got away with it on lots of days. Being the second most supicious person that day etc..

vote Soc

[boberz]

I actually said that it was not the reason I didnt find him suspicious. I just said it gave me a bias. I have maintained that the wagon on weapons (ages ago now) built up so quickly that it looked unlikely he was scum. I also have not seen a convincing case for weapons. It seems that people have given up scumhunting and are just saying we can lynch x or y then track z etc etc. Town laziness imo.

[boberz]

Then outline why he is scum then please I really dont get it. It looks like elimination to me, but as I see it there are definately 4 including me with equal odds chance of being scum (Townies) so elimination wont wash with me.

[boberz]

What I see of the weapons case:

Stays on the xine bandwagon even when trying to attack others (Soc)
Rolefish 474 (too obvious for me to see this as scummy, it read
Votes lowell even though he said he is town. - not optimul but not a scummy imo
Going with the flow - not optimul but not scummy imo

All the rubbish about him being scared of a track is speculation and wrong anyway as the parnter would not have let him get away with it anyway.
A lot of everyone's posts seems to be narrowing it down to 4 and making that part of the weapons case it seems like the ultimate mudslinging.

[boberz]

Ill

vote charter

because I dont think it is weapons and people seem to be avoiding the soc lynch while he is away??? Not logic I like but meh.

---

A question I askeda while ago that never got answered: is it merely setup speculation that makes it two of the four claimed VTs? because if it is is that really strong enough? And why did everyone except me seem to accept it. I feel I have missed something blindingly obvious but I am no longer happy following other people semi blind.

[boberz]

I agree with popcorn FOSs and then Xine claim. But not quite so enthralledby the prospect of leaving our fate in the hands of one player. So first two things then discussion.

[boberz]

Erm, by elimination it would appear to be Weapons and Oso. So either seem to be the lynch today. This game ahs taught me a lot about scumhunting (ie I am crap) as neither were really on my list throughout the game.

I would still like someone to tell me why slaxx is safe. I have this strong gut read of scum still but everyone seems to have accepted him as town, I presume there is a reason. I am sure I have asked this before and received no answer.

My cluelessness I cannot do much about. I am not always, in fact rarely am I this lost in a game, but what can I do about it now. I tried a reread during the night

[boberz]

edit: (onto the end) but it achieved little.

[boberz]

Let me think in the morning, because it is more than gut but hard to explain. I will have a go in the morn.

[boberz]

vote weapons

[boberz]

Thanks for the compliment but I dont feel I played well. The little boy lost routine was not put on, till about half way through day 3, and the missed night kill was my fault (however I was sending it when my laptop crashed so it is not as bad as it seems) cheers Oso, it was good to see youcome back.

[boberz]

If he claims a PR we would have nkd him anyway probably surely??? I dont think it would have affected how people saw you anyway, if you can justify a scum read it is fine imo.

[boberz]

*Lies here embarrased*

[boberz]

The modding was attentive and good I really enjoyed this game. I honestly forgot my scum team during day 1 and didnt realise it was a bus. But atleast it is what I would have done as town as well, so I can scumhunt. Yay.

[boberz]

Cheers Ythill, I think my meta is pretty consistent but I dont play enough games for people to believe my day 1 play is like that as both, which means epic early wagon. ALthough I am not always as clueless as I am in this and Mafia in Mendo. But I always seem to end up as a bit clueless

Also loads of people were chatting about the obv town nature of Lowell. I dont disagree but it is much too easy for experienced player to use meta knowledge as obv town. It is much harder to accept that until you have seen it for real.

[boberz]

How come everyone in the dead qt had me and nobody in the game? Is there some kind of deathbed revelation.

[boberz]

I didn't mean for that last post to be demeaning towards Boberz; I should have said a nice combination of both. Boberz did do a nice job in the later days, but I don't think he was immune.

You are right, one of my posts didnt come out yesterday. I made a detailed case and vote on Bub Buddikins. I will do it again in a sec.

unvote vote Bub

Sorry.

Boberz - did you really forget to vote Bub or was this post a lie?

xvart.

I wasn't immune and this was not my best play. But my meta is to get a massive wagon up on me early day 1. I do do this, I do think it is healthy to town moreso than RVS that wasnt a lie.

Blatant lie on the Bub thing. When you say things in good faith they are accepted all the time.