Mini 1102 - Rivertown Mafia (Game Over!)

[ortiz1193]

/confirm

[ortiz1193]

RVS is for scrubs. I'll just wait for TL.

[ortiz1193]

Olinea: umad

Umbrage clearly attacked the points that would be made against him before they could be made against him, hoping to nullify them. This was his attempt at stifling discussion, not contributing, and attempting to get away with it.

vote Umbrage

Let's do it yo

[ortiz1193]

true dat

vote: oritz

Actually el simo's vote was the closest one to possibly having any scum motivation. Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

[ortiz1193]

Because self-voting makes me scum.

[ortiz1193]

wow I didn't have to pull a gambit to get us away from RVS

ortiz is obvscum, his meta is so bad here

vote: ortiz

Worst post in the thread. I would go off on it if I didn't think it was just some terrible attempt at a reaction test.

[ortiz1193]

Yeah that's basically it. We play offsite together. The link in my sig has a ton of games I've played with TL, and a few with everyone else if you want to see any.

Any more questions that people not named Olinea should answer?

[ortiz1193]

I'm on chamber's side. Not sure what he should be responding to?

[ortiz1193]

The Umbrage vote was RVS. I don't even get what you're saying about the self vote. I self voted for lulz. (Also RVS) You are trying way too hard to make something out of nothing. That's equivalent to you taking a random RVS vote and calling me scum for it.

[ortiz1193]

Do you think my reactions that I'm getting are satisfying? y/n

Restate the question plox... Are you saying "Do you think that I think you're scum? y/n"

[ortiz1193]

You are trying way too hard to make something out of nothing. That's equivalent to you taking a random RVS vote and calling me scum for it.

Hey, buddy. I'm not trying that hard at all. Looks like you're trying pretty hard to make it look like I'm trying my heart out to paint you as scum. Point is, to me, it didn't feel like your vote was an RVS vote. It felt like a real vote with secondhand reasons. If I were really trying hard, I'd have voted. That's why I said it was a "ping." People need to lrn2rd or lrn2cmrephend.

As for you, el simo, you said you were randomly voting. It's interesting how your "RANDOM" vote happened to follow the bandwagon. To me, it looks like you're trying to jump on the largest bandwagon and further it without too much (read: any) reasoning. How can you even say it was unrelated? It's interesting because it's too much of a coincidence.

My vote on Umbrage was pretty obviously an RVS vote if you look at the context of it. I used crappy reasoning to try and start a bandwagon, and then unvoted in my next post. (<-- This should pretty much confirm the fact that it was RVS.) If it was even a remotely serious vote, I wouldn't have unvoted without provocation. You're still saying, "I have a ping for ortiz on my scumdar because of his RVS vote that I don't think was RVS."

Note: It was RVS.

I agree with not liking el simo's vote. But it was RVS so I'll lean toward it being a nulltell. Personally I jump on RVS wagons regardless of alignment. As town to move the game along, and as scum for the same reason.

[ortiz1193]

^ completely agree. I'm used to replacing in out having a vi to bandwagon. There's not actually much happening atm.

Simo: so you are now trying to say that your vote was purposely on umbrage after repeatedly saying it was random?

[ortiz1193]

Apparently not.

vote el simo

I was looking for confirmation in my last post but rereading 77-80 is enough for me.

[ortiz1193]

Do you think my reactions that I'm getting are satisfying? y/n

Restate the question plox... Are you saying "Do you think that I think you're scum? y/n"

misrep +1

Where's the misrep? I asked you what you were trying to say.

[ortiz1193]

Simo: so you are now trying to say that your vote was purposely on umbrage after repeatedly saying it was random?

Ding ding ding I called my vote random once, and that was in the voting post itself. Now who's lying?

Unvote, vote: ortiz

.

1.

I agree.

On a completely unrelated note I think I'll randomly

Vote: Umbrage

.

2.

However, el simo's vote just

happened

to "randomly" fall on a developing bandwagon. Interesting, no?

Yup my vote was unrelated to the previous two. Why is this interesting? What are your thoughts on bandwagons that makes this such an interesting occurrence?

Sorry that you didn't use the word random again, but you implied the same thing. How can your vote be unrelated to the other two, but still a vote to push a bandwagon?

[ortiz1193]

Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

Umbrage, this was never answered.

Are these the scum reads you referred to in post 109?

[ortiz1193]

Mmk, that works. Still though:

When I gave my scum reads, I based those primarily on who was fooling around in the RVS, and who was looking for a wagon to jump on. It had little to do with activity level.

What scumreads were you referring to? The ones you're saying were a joke?

[ortiz1193]

unvote

@el simo: I actually do understand what you're getting at now. It's pretty clear I misunderstood when I tried defending my point earlier - I wasn't trying to misrep you, which is what you voted me for.

Umbrage is scummy for pushing that, but he could still be misunderstanding like I was. Also holding my vote until everyone posts more.

MOD: Prod Furcolow

- he hasn't posted at all yet.

[ortiz1193]

Furcolow, you can post in the same style, just open each quote in a new tab, copy each quote to a reply page, and you can respond to all of them in one post.
---
Aside from the annoying posting style, Furc's content seems solid - I agree with his reads for the most part.
---
Umbrage: It wasn't really a sudden turnaround, I just had an epiphany and understood what el simo was saying.
---
Those voting el simo: Look at it this way, what is the scum motivation for him lying? I don't see his play as being more likely to come from scum than town.
---
#214 is a major . What's with the overreaction? And to repeat el simo, how do you get furcolow scum out of his play so far? Just because he's voting you? His play seems pretty town-sided to me.
---
Looking back at Umbrage's ISO.

The scummiest players so far are ThAdmiral and Cyberbob. They come in, vote un-randomly, and disappear. Don't like.

Also, people shouldn't have to explain their random votes. That's because they are random.

I added the part about disappearing because you can throw down a serious vote in RVS, you just have to be around to follow it up. I didn't like the way you just left after laying down a vote that appeared to be not part of RVS. It's like pulling the fire alarm and running away.

vote Umbrage

- RVS Contradiction (seems similar to the reason he's been going after el simo), + #214 is a mega scummy post + Umbrage still pushing hard on el simo (slight town read, and a town read in Furcolow) makes Umbrage scum.

[ortiz1193]

vote Umbrage

Unvote, Vote: Furcolow

Cyberbob is the only person I'm sure is town at this point.

...

Cyberbob has done nothing but RVS, defend his RVS, and complain about our posting styles. How could you possibly have a town read on him? Especially a "sure" one?

Cyberbob: Policy vote on Furcolow, or do you think he's scum?

[ortiz1193]

Pie: Go ahead and give us the case on why TK is scum. I see his lack of pro-town vibes, but I didn't see anything that screams scum in the ISO.

The scummiest thing TK has done is unvote as soon as you pressure him like that - he majorly caved right there.

[ortiz1193]

^^good vote.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while. I'm really confident at least one of those 3 is scum. I'm gonna reread the 3 of them because I think I might prefer one of the other two lynches over Umbrage. Also, not sure what to think of CB. I get the scummiest vibe ever from him but I don't know if he's actually scum or if it's just his playstyle.

Note: Pie is not playing his scum meta at all. He could've changed, but I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point. I have a pretty good idea of what his scum meta is because I pretty much based mine off of it >_> (and I stalk his games).

[ortiz1193]

You should know that people rarely ever just randomly say their gut reads when they have no evidence and can't back it up. If I would've said 5 pages ago, "oh hey btw soras is scum, I can't prove it or anything, I just feel it," then it would've gotten nowhere.

[ortiz1193]

Alright, I reread the last ~4 pages to re-evaluate my reads. First off, thanks Pie for actually getting us going (imo). Looking back on it, Umbrage and El Simo both look town (or atleast not scum) and the votes on them came from our lack of anything else to go on.

-Pie is coming off very town. Pretty sure, but he could be messing with his meta because I think I caught him in our last game together (F&I), and Fugi is getting a good grasp on his scum meta too.

-I don't think TK is scum. I can see a few scummy things he's done, but he just comes off as having an r2r meta to me (the one where r2r lacks the ability to make a decision on Day 1 so people always call him scum for it). I guess I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped scum, but I just don't think he is, and definitely not worth a vote. Someone said something earlier along the lines of "town being made scummy" and I think that could be happening here. I stand by the scummiest thing he did was unvoting as soon as he got called out.

-I'm still suspicious of Soras, mainly because of his posts involving Pie.

This whole group thing and the huge posts seem like very over the top ways of trying to make yourself look town, Pie.

@Olinea, Pie: This is the same thing Pie did in GHM1, if I remember correctly. I'm not saying he's scum here, but everyone went along with what he said in GHM1, and the town lost because of it (his mafia team did too, but that's not the point ). Link for those who weren't in the game: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopi ... 99&start=0

Point is, I just don't want people to go necessarily go along with these groups Pie has made solely because he's...made them. Those are his (valid) opinions, but people looking at these groups should take other things into account, and not take them to heart so quickly (I don't know if people have yet).

This comes off to me as trying to discredit Pie as soon as he starts his case on TK. The first thing I thought was chainsaw, but that would require TK being scum, and then he voted TK in the next post so idk. I still don't like it.

Also, I don't like his reactions to suspicion being placed on him. His reactions to Chamber early in the game, the last vote on him, and my post just don't read well to me. He just comes off overly hostile in those posts.

+I think TK is the second wagon he jumped on (I think he was on one earlier when chamber voted for him), which isn't necessarily a scumtell, but still worth mentioning.

That is the reasoning behind soras being second on my scumlist.

--

unvote, vote CyberBob

You think TK got away with a lot? CB has done absolutely NOTHING. He has not scumhunted, he has not contributed at all. His votes aren't looking for scum, they're like principle votes or something. He voted me for self-voting (and having numbers in my name >_>, which he also said was NOT Rvs), he voted Furcolow for being a VI, and has done nothing to actually find scum. He's posted numerous times about the rest of our posting styles/game theory (about caution being a scumtell), but still has done absolutely no scum hunting.

Scum letting town do work on each other while he coasts? I think so. Read his ISO.

[ortiz1193]

TK had 3 votes on him, and Soras had 1 right?

Pie why did you switch your vote from someone you are 100% as scum to someone that is "a suspicion"? Especially when the 100% scum has more votes on him? I don't understand your play at all.

(Ninja'd by like 3 people btw)

I don't think my buddying is relevant to the game. I said thank you for starting the game and talked about my town read (which is supported by offering himself as lynch-bait) which wasn't buddying. I talk to Pie in an IRC channel regularly, so its not like I'm just doing this out of nowhere.

Admiral: Nothing to say on Soras/TK/CB?

[ortiz1193]

Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter)

Ortiz has actually been wishy-washy on a number of things. He voted el-simo at the start of the day, then flipped to having a slight-town read on el-simo and voted umbrage instead. Then he agreed with umbrage's vote on sora, but didn't take his vote off umbrage. Earlier he had expressed some suspicions of 3k (iso 20, 21), but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more (iso 23), and voted cyberbob instead.
He seems to be keeping his options open for most of the major wagons and has flip-flopped quite a few times.

vote: ortiz

You just took my play throughout this game completely out of context.

[ortiz1193]

First off, CB needs to quit attacking everyone, its pointless.

Second, the whole "posting town reads is anti-town!!" is terrible. If you don't think scum can figure out who the most town players are, then you've either never been scum, or you just aren't very good at it. It is not hard to find out who the obv town players are, and when one or two people post town reads, it isn't giving scum any advantage. Now it probably doesn't help town either, but there's no need to make a big deal out of it like it's actually helping scum. Scumlists almost help scum as much as townlists with that logic.

This is becoming less reliable as more people know about this tell, which by now is a lot.

This is important. I'm a strong advocate of caution vs. recklessness, but it has to be looked at in context. Both sides who are saying "caution is a scumtell" and "caution isn't a scumtell (you idiot)" are wrong.

---

Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter)

Where was I wishy washy at all. Point it out, I'm pretty sure I have clearly said Soras is scummy and second on my scumlist.

1)Ortiz has actually been wishy-washy on a number of things. 2)He voted el-simo at the start of the day, then flipped to having a slight-town read on el-simo and voted umbrage instead. 3)Then he agreed with umbrage's vote on sora, but didn't take his vote off umbrage. 4)Earlier he had expressed some suspicions of 3k (iso 20, 21), but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more (iso 23), and voted cyberbob instead.
He seems to be keeping his options open for most of the major wagons and has flip-flopped quite a few times.

vote: ortiz

1) I'm waiting on Olinea to actually point this out, and if he can't, then you just parroted his BS.

2) Not wishy-washy. As soon as I figured out what el simo was saying, and why he wasn't scummy, it made Umbrage scummy for pushing it as hard as he was.

3) The post in question:

^^good vote.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while. I'm really confident at least one of those 3 is scum. I'm gonna reread the 3 of them because I think I might prefer one of the other two lynches over Umbrage. Also, not sure what to think of CB. I get the scummiest vibe ever from him but I don't know if he's actually scum or if it's just his playstyle.

Note: Pie is not playing his scum meta at all. He could've changed, but I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point. I have a pretty good idea of what his scum meta is because I pretty much based mine off of it >_> (and I stalk his games).

Pretty sure it clearly says that I was suspicious of all of them, and I was going to reread, which is why I left my vote where it was.

4) The "suspicions" mentioned:

Pie: Go ahead and give us the case on why TK is scum. I see his lack of pro-town vibes, but I didn't see anything that screams scum in the ISO.

The scummiest thing TK has done is unvote as soon as you pressure him like that - he majorly caved right there.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while.

This is my favorite part. The first quote is hardly showing suspicion compared to the second one, where I did show suspicion. The second post is #324. Remember that reread I said I was going to do? Yeah, that happened 5 posts after this one. 5. So tell me please how the TK wagon "died down" in the 5 posts in between my suspicion and me saying that I don't think he's scum. Hint: It didn't. I reread the game, like I said I was going to in the previous post, and like I said in the post where I said TK was town.

Admiral added the "but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more" just to put me in a negative light. Misrepping, taking out of context, whatever you want to call it.

[ortiz1193]

Olinea: Do you have any scumreads? I've seen you defending all the top lynch candidates, but not calling anyone scum. Do you still think el simo is scum? (I think that's where your vote is)

I feel like you did this last game and you weren't town then. >_>

[ortiz1193]

2) Not wishy-washy. As soon as I figured out what el simo was saying, and why he wasn't scummy, it made Umbrage scummy for pushing it as hard as he was.

pushing something hard that you disagree with doesn't make someone scummy per se, it makes them in disagreement with you. it only becomes scummy if you think they're doing it in bad faith (which is not always the case unless you think town players are never ever incorrect)

That's what I meant. At the time, it seemed like Umbrage was pushing an el simo lynch based on wording, which was scummy.

[ortiz1193]

Why do you think Furcolow is scum? Annoying isn't a reason for a lynch.

ThAdmiral, do you have nothing to say in response to me?

ps "shape up scum" is a nice little backhanded attack that lets you get away with casting suspicion without really putting yourself on the line.

For what it's worth, CB has already put himself on the line and called you scum >_>. I thought he made a good point there.

[ortiz1193]

Why do you think Furcolow is scum?

[ortiz1193]

We should decide between tk, cb, and soras imo.

And no I don't want to lynch tk, but he's an option for just about everyone else.

[ortiz1193]

Umbrage you made a newb mistake by saying that. When you think someone's a PR, it's generally considered anti-town to point it out. People normally get called scum for it too. (Even though I've only seen town players point out softclaims. Idk why so many mafia players fail)

Preview Edit:

Umbrage he was being sarcastic. You pretty much said, "Oh, you're soft-claiming a PR? That makes you scummy!"

He softclaimed, now you're voting him. This is scummy because scum have motivation to either a) out a suspected PR or b) lynch a suspected PR + more reasons.

--------

Oh and I'm still waiting for Olinea to respond to my last post from whenever.

[ortiz1193]

Apologies for the lack of activity in this game, I'm trying to pick it up. It's winter break and all that, yada yada ya.

^^good vote.

You support the vote.

I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while.

You think Soras is slightly scummy. Note that "a bad feeling" is pretty ambiguous.

^^good vote.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while. I'm really confident at least one of those 3 is scum. I'm gonna reread the 3 of them because I think I might prefer one of the other two lynches over Umbrage. Also, not sure what to think of CB. I get the scummiest vibe ever from him but I don't know if he's actually scum or if it's just his playstyle.

Note: Pie is not playing his scum meta at all. He could've changed, but I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point. I have a pretty good idea of what his scum meta is because I pretty much based mine off of it >_> (and I stalk his games).

No vote, FoS, anything.

That's what I mean by wishy-washy.

"Good vote. I have a bad feeling about Soras. Let me reread everyone."

Good vote implies it is a good vote on Soras. Why would I approve of a vote on someone? Because I think they are, or are likely scum. Using this context, there is no ambiguity. Next, I say that I will reread. Literally 5 posts later, I proceeded to reread, and post Soras as my 2nd scumread. There was no wishy-washy. I said I had a bad feeling, rechecked, and solidified my stance. I have already covered all of this.

And FoSes are a worthless waste of space imo. Don't expect to see one from me, ever.

[ortiz1193]

So I take it no one wants to lynch CB? >_> I've been seeing "yeah he's scummy but I'd rather lynch xxx" all game which makes me think CB is scum who is just getting distanced.

Deadline is soon, with the activity we need to decide on a lynch by tomorrow night since deadline is in the AM on Wednesday. I'll switch to TK if necessary for a lynch, but I'd rather lynch CB or atleast Soras. The only other options seem to be Furcolow and Umbrage and neither are as good of lynches as TK.

Pie: You need to quit trying to scumhunt by connections on Day 1. I don't even know why you're trying without a single flip, it just seems pointless. Your reads on player A & B shouldn't be altered by player F voting a certain way >_>. (atleast not on Day 1)

[ortiz1193]

So I take it no one wants to lynch CB? >_> I've been seeing "yeah he's scummy but I'd rather lynch xxx" all game which makes me think CB is scum who is just getting distanced.

Watching mafia concepts thought up by good players mindlessly regurgitated by bad players is the funniest thing.

I agree, and thanks for the compliment. I like to think I came up with a pretty effective tell there. I hate it when noobs copy my ideas.

[ortiz1193]

Why?

When I see something is scummy or have a bad feeling or whatever, I'll say it and try to explain it in more detail. I have never been one to just FoS.

I don't mind being lynched

Here we go.

[ortiz1193]

Just got back from school/work, I have to eat and write an essay (two but doubt that'll happen >_>). I'll

unvote, vote soras

. Don't have time to talk much or read the last two pages yada yada but I'll check again in a few hours and make sure my votes in the right place for a lynch to go through.

[ortiz1193]

First off, I read the last page that I posted on, and skimmed the rest. All I saw before my last post was diddin's flame warning, Furcolow claiming miller, and the last votals. I went and got my phone out so I could read the thread from my sora vote forward and people (apparently) calling me out for lurking (and then posting after I got called out for it?) pissed me off enough to come up stairs and post. I LAST POSTED ON JANUARY 4TH. I have never felt a need to flame someone and call them an idiot in a mafia game until now. I literally stayed up posting until midnight, went to bed, went to school, went straight to work from school, came home and immediately went to my computer. If we're playing a game where we start calling people for lurking after a fucking school day I will replace out because I won't be able to keep up. /rant

I also just realized I can only respond to certain things because the posting is outgoing what I can post right now so if I missed something I need to comment on bring it up specifically.

@CB - what was wrong with what ortiz said? Genuinely curious, I think he made a good point and I hate when people blow things off by just insulting someone's ability to play the game. That seemed pretty uncalled for.

Because a) for him to be correct I would need to be on a scumteam with half the goddamn game (as just about that many people have been vaguely dismissal of me) b) he's just trying to underhandedly load more suspicion onto me in lieu of an actual case or whatever and c) funny third thing

I don't get a. b is lol and an attempt to make me look scummy I guess? Considering I posted my reasons for voting you, when I uhh voted you? Yes I'm bringing suspicion on you, it's called trying to get scum lynched. Your "in lieu of a case" is a blatant lie. And I don't get c.

ortiz: I said I was trying to see the case on him, and I still am, because everyone else has called him scummy as various points in the game. Obviously, I'm starting to feel that I'm missing something. Obviously, I would want to understand why other find him scummy.

I don't get it either, there is no case on me at all. The only point I've seen made that holds merit was buddying with Pie. Olinea and Thadmiral litterally made something up, and other people keep saying "oritz is scum or oritz is scummy" without any reasoning. I tore Admiral's case to pieces and he just unvoted (no one has mentioned this btw) and then I think he still called me scum again in his last post, can't remember and don't have time to look right now.

Great two votes hopped off TK now we are no where near a lynch. We need to stop arguing and compromise on a lynch or we won't get one.

I want Sora gone but as I've stated I could go with 3K should push come to shove.

This post is exactly how I feel right now. Word for word.

don't much like el simo pushing the deadline paranoia thing + the "I want x gone but if I really have to would go with y" thing either

Seems perfectly fine to me. I said the same thing yesterday I think. I want soras lynched and think he's likely scum, but I'm smart enough to know that we NEED to lynch someone, even if I don't think they're scum.

---

Soras posting: I've seen him lurk and threaten replacement before as scum, I have no reservations about lynching him because of his annoying wifom.

I know I attacked Umbrage for jumping on the easy lynch of Fur (because Fur was saying he wanted to be lynched) and I'm now voting for an "easy lynch" in soras. However, due to the fact that we have two claims already, and both are high wagons, IMO we need to decide on one of these two now. If soras (or even fur) hadn't claimed, I'd still be pushing for Umbrage or 3K. =/

This feels over cautious and prematurely defensive to me, qualifying your actions like that. The "I know I said this but I'm not being a hypocrite because..."

It's kind of like a sophisticated inb4 so you can do something suspicious but claim it's not suspicious.

Got a similar read off of it. Just to note right now (because I can't call it a good vote later when someone votes Pie without voicing suspicion previously apparently) I've been getting bad vibes from Pie the last few pages.

ortiz is falling under the radar too.

Is this where Fugi called me for lurking? Lurking =/= falling under the radar. I got mad for no reason .

I usually don't like pointing things like this out, but if I had a dollar every time I saw oritz's name on the bottom of the page, I'd be able to quit my job at OG and retire now. Regardless, I agree - he needs to post more.

...and? Have I not adequately posted in this game? I slowed down my posting on like page 4 when they were complaining about us going too quickly. Seriously I have posted as much as anyone and I bet as much as 2/3 of the players in this game. I guess I could just hide my online status like you.

--

I posted here. I just looked at the votals and put my vote on my 2nd scumread, which I've proclaimed for a while. I even said yesterday (I think?) that I'd like to get a soras wagon going or a CB lynch and if neither then I"d lynch whoever to make sure a lynch went through. I followed through on my post. That put it at 4-4. I even said I wasn't going to have much time to post and that I'll check again and vote to make sure we have a lynch go through.

---

lmao ortiz you best be prepared tomorrow son

For what? Nothing wrong with my post.

Vague softclaims like that are SCUMMY. With that, he could claim whatever the hell he wanted, and knowing these players, you'd all believe him. Or, he could just say it wasn't a softclaim. He could say whatever the hell he wants. And you are all eating out of his hand.

What has fugi done that is scummy besides the softclaim? You're pushing this hard and I think I mentioned a long time ago that you're playing scummy by pretty much trying to get a PR wagoned/suspicioned/lynched. Yes I have also read your posts and do not recall you ever saying Fugi is scummy for xxx that isn't involved with the softclaim.

Ortiz, that was an awful post. HoS: Ortiz

Not really. I've been over this.

Also, nice of you to post after Fugi and I call you out for lurking, oritz.

RAGE

[quote="Pie""]
I hope you're checking up on the thread.[/quote]

Pie I really want to slap you right now.

-random note: Pie and Fugi are starting to play off each other. Pointing that out now instead of later.

Fuig: no one knows about chamber. He should be replaced and is probably up for another prod check. He got prodded earlier, posted that he got prodded, and never made another post.

Bye Umbrage. Quit whining. CB has annoyingly called people an idiot which isn't worth a modkill. You absolutely flamed someone after multiple warnings. Diddin did the right thing.

[ortiz1193]

1. ortiz1193- Was a fairly neutral read until his last post, now a large scum suspect.
(Scum)

Is the last post you're referring to the one where I voted you? Because I will stand by it to the end that my play was completely fine there. I knew I couldn't get on and voted my highest scumread that had a chance of being lynched after I said I would do this a day earlier. Please tell me what is scummy about that because I don't see how I could've played the situation any better. Would you rather me have left my vote on CyberBob, who had no chance of being lynched with 12 hours until the deadline?

---

Pie: Nothing to say about calling me out for lurking 3 times when I had posted earlier in the day? I also appreciate you responding with only sarcasm after I called you out on multiple things, and then not addressing anything else in my post after your constantly criticism of my "lurking."

The first quote of that was me criticizing earlier in the game when I said someone made a good vote on Soras but people were calling me scummy for it because I hadn't mentioned anything about my gut read on soras. So now I'm mentioning all of my gut reads/vibes so I can actually use them later for support!

Pie has become increasingly scummy the last few pages. I still don't like Olinea's play. He rarely posts and avoids all major wagons when he does. I mentioned this earlier but I'm pretty sure I got no responses from anyone on the matter.

[ortiz1193]

I still don't like Olinea's play. He rarely posts and avoids all major wagons when he does. I mentioned this earlier but I'm pretty sure I got no responses from anyone on the matter.

Is there anything you want me to comment on? I realize the activity could be better but I think anything major that's happened I've given my views on it.

Which major wagons have I avoided? I've had soras pegged as town for a while and nothing else major jumps to mind.

Nothing specific. The problem is you play exactly like I used to as scum. You post in a really protown style and then avoid voting for the people who are under suspicion to avoid voting for a mislynch, which makes you look more town. For example, we had like 4 scum candidates at one point that everyone's attention was on, you posted and called Soras town and then voted Umbrage (who wasn't suspicious at the time.) It's just a style I'm familiar with and it makes you seem likely scum to me.

Also I can't help but think I'm influenced by you playing so similarly and flipping SK in our last game.

Just post more frequently, that should solve the problem. >_>

[ortiz1193]

Means we don't have to wait until tomorrow to deal with this ^

unvote, vote: ortiz1193

Doing that so close to deadline? idunlykit

Do it. (Forgot to copy the elaborate part)

I voted because it was so close to deadline. I've explained this 100 times but please do post. Not a single person has posted reasoning for me being scum.

[ortiz1193]

Not a single person has posted reasoning for me being scum.

This sounds like me in an offsite game long, long ago. I think you remember it. ScoreHero Mafia 1? And you said yourself you base your scum meta off of mine. Not to mention that pre-deadline vote post WAS just horrible. But I'm not willing to vote you, not yet. Still unsure of whether I should vote 3K again or not, plus I admit that's not even enough evidence for a worthy vote. I'll reread you in ISO and see if I find anything noteworthy.

"Basing my meta off you" meant that you were the first good scum I saw and I played pro-town like you instead of lurking and whatever other styles there are. I defend myself that way as town and scum, and I can back that up. I rarely acknowledge people having good reasons against me regardless of alignment so I post that a lot.

I never outright said you were lurking. I said you needed to post more, and congratulated you on posting when we called you out.
You had posted four times since the 1st, so even if you weren't lurking per se, it just seemed like you were posting less compared to what was going on at the time. I suppose technically you weren't lurking, then. Is that what you wanted to hear? You still had been pretty under-the-radar like Fugi said. I agree with that.

Fugi already pointed the first part out. Yes it's what I wanted to hear. Apology accepted.

And I can't help it if other people don't talk about me >_>. (Which is what I get from the phrase under-the-radar)

----

Now for everyone who keeps saying my post was scummy.

1) Why?

2) What should I have done in that scenario? My vote was on a CB who wouldn't be lynched. My reads at that time were 1) CB 2) Soras. I could only post one more time. The deadline was in 12 hours. A vote on Soras put him in a tie for the vote-lead.

That is the exact scenario. All of you answer #2 please.

[ortiz1193]

oritz, the fact that you posted "oh, I haven't read but let me vote the person that's been given the most heat in the last few pages" seemed like a bullshit excuse to wagon. That's why it was a bad post.

I have had him as my 2nd scumread since he first came up for discussion. You even got mad at me earlier for voting CB and said he wouldn't be lynched. This is a bullshit post. Quit acting like I switched to the person with the most heat on them (he didn't even the most votes fwiw) and that being the sole reason. It was pretty obvious why I switched to him and it will be just as obvious after the rest of this post.

It's not your vote that is scummy it's the situation surrounded it. You don't both to explain your suspicion on even state that you had any, then you continue to say that you will check in a few hours to make sure your vote is in the right place for a lynch to happen.

Oh my god are you serious? I explained it before I even posted that. I never shut up about my suspicions of sora.

-I'm still suspicious of Soras, mainly because of his posts involving Pie.

This whole group thing and the huge posts seem like very over the top ways of trying to make yourself look town, Pie.

@Olinea, Pie: This is the same thing Pie did in GHM1, if I remember correctly. I'm not saying he's scum here, but everyone went along with what he said in GHM1, and the town lost because of it (his mafia team did too, but that's not the point ). Link for those who weren't in the game: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopi ... 99&start=0

Point is, I just don't want people to go necessarily go along with these groups Pie has made solely because he's...made them. Those are his (valid) opinions, but people looking at these groups should take other things into account, and not take them to heart so quickly (I don't know if people have yet).

This comes off to me as trying to discredit Pie as soon as he starts his case on TK. The first thing I thought was chainsaw, but that would require TK being scum, and then he voted TK in the next post so idk. I still don't like it.

Also, I don't like his reactions to suspicion being placed on him. His reactions to Chamber early in the game, the last vote on him, and my post just don't read well to me. He just comes off overly hostile in those posts.

+I think TK is the second wagon he jumped on (I think he was on one earlier when chamber voted for him), which isn't necessarily a scumtell, but still worth mentioning.

That is the reasoning behind soras being second on my scumlist.

We should decide between tk, cb, and soras imo. And no I don't want to lynch tk, but he's an option for just about everyone else.

"Good vote. I have a bad feeling about Soras. Let me reread everyone."

Good vote implies it is a good vote on Soras. Why would I approve of a vote on someone? Because I think they are, or are likely scum. Using this context, there is no ambiguity. Next, I say that I will reread. Literally 5 posts later, I proceeded to reread, and post Soras as my 2nd scumread. There was no wishy-washy. I said I had a bad feeling, rechecked, and solidified my stance. I have already covered all of this.

And FoSes are a worthless waste of space imo. Don't expect to see one from me, ever.

So I take it no one wants to lynch CB? >_> I've been seeing "yeah he's scummy but I'd rather lynch xxx" all game which makes me think CB is scum who is just getting distanced.

Deadline is soon, with the activity we need to decide on a lynch by tomorrow night since deadline is in the AM on Wednesday. I'll switch to TK if necessary for a lynch, but I'd rather lynch CB or

atleast Soras

. The only other options seem to be Furcolow and Umbrage and neither are as good of lynches as TK.

Just got back from school/work, I have to eat and write an essay (two but doubt that'll happen >_>).

I'll unvote, vote soras.

Don't have time to talk much or read the last two pages yada yada but I'll check again in a few hours and

make sure my votes in the right place for a lynch to go through

.

Ok this settles it for me. I literally could not have played the game without being called scum for it. a) I don't post at all and get called scum for lurking b) I keep my vote on CB and get called scum for contributing to a no lynch going through by not switching to the person I said I would switch to had a high chance of being lynched c) I switch votes LIKE I SAID I WAS GOING TO and get called scum for switching or d) I don't post about why I wasn't going to get to stay on and defend myself and just make a post that says "unvote, vote soras" which would be 10x worse.

I also said I would do what was necessary to get a lynch through. It's called not being an idiot. TK and Soras both had a ton of connections and votes/unvotes on them. A lynch of either of them is better than no lynching on Day 1.

I can not defend myself from this. It seems so obviously clear to me and 2 of my 3 scumreads are voting me.

The rest of us decided to compromise our target to get a lynch that we can all be happy with and were posting actively, you decided just to put your vote anywhere to make sure we lynch someone and then disappear for a while. You also tried to excuse your lack of input and limited activity during the few hours before our deadline because you had to eat and write an essay, setting you up to hop bandwagons willy nilly with out having to explain your actions at all because you have to get back to writing that essay and eating that food.

a while = two hours

setting me to hop wagons = setting me to up to help a lynch go through

without having to explain your actions =

tl;dr

I can not defend myself from this. It seems so obviously clear to me and 2 of my 3 scumreads are voting me.

oh and inb4 Pie says I'm scum for OMGUSing him even though I've already posted (no surprise there) that he's scummy, and I have for a while

[ortiz1193]

Fwiw, never take anything I say as anger. I'm not like everyone else in this game >_>. I'm pretty level-headed and speak in a passive voice. I don't get mad at this stuff. No need to sound angry (idk if you are, but this is the angriest you've sounded in this game).

Ok this settles it for me. I literally could not have played the game without being called scum for it. a) I don't post at all and get called scum for lurking b) I keep my vote on CB and get called scum for contributing to a no lynch going through by not switching to the person I said I would switch to had a high chance of being lynched c) I switch votes LIKE I SAID I WAS GOING TO and get called scum for switching or d) I don't post about why I wasn't going to get to stay on and defend myself and just make a post that says "unvote, vote soras" which would be 10x worse.

I also said I would do what was necessary to get a lynch through. It's called not being an idiot. TK and Soras both had a ton of connections and votes/unvotes on them. A lynch of either of them is better than no lynching on Day 1.

I can not defend myself from this. It seems so obviously clear to me and 2 of my 3 scumreads are voting me.

A) so post more B) this is just not true, you are not scummy for wanting to lynch someone else C) fuck have some sense ortiz, how can you say this when I haven't even replied to your defence of the accusations? Honestly, fucking hell. C is wrong because now that you've shown me how I was wrong I understand your view and realize it's NOT scummy, so next time before having a rant wait for a reply buddy. D) doesn't matter, point is you had LA and planning to vote who ever to get a lynch.

a) I've posted plenty imo. The point was that just posting wasn't an option because it led to the other letters.

b)

Notably oritz, who had no problem jumping off of the el simo wagon once it began to pick up steam, only to go onto the Umbrage wagon, and now sits comfortably on Cyberbob who probably won't be lynched. There's something fishy there.

It doesn't say it in black and white, but I feel like fishy implies suspicion. Plus I would honestly be suspicious of someone who posted that close to the deadline without voting someone who they had already called scum and let a no lynch go through. If we no lynched with the options we had it would've been terrible.



c) Seriously? That was like the 3rd time I've repeated the exact same thing... the "rant" was because I had already posted my reasoning and you had still made your post about it. This is honestly how it felt to me:

<paragraph> ...and THAT is why the balloon is, in fact, NOT blue.

<paragraph> ...oh and obviously the balloon is blue.

Idk if that's terrible or not, but it was just the frustration I felt. I didn't mean to rant/rage if that's how it came off.

d) I still stand by doing whatever to get a lynch through so I'm fine with that

The rest of us decided to compromise our target to get a lynch that we can all be happy with and were posting actively, you decided just to put your vote anywhere to make sure we lynch someone and then disappear for a while. You also tried to excuse your lack of input and limited activity during the few hours before our deadline because you had to eat and write an essay, setting you up to hop bandwagons willy nilly with out having to explain your actions at all because you have to get back to writing that essay and eating that food.

a while = two hours

setting me to hop wagons = setting me to up to help a lynch go through

without having to explain your actions =

If you were only going to be inactive for two hours why did you bother rush posting and voting in the first place, when you could have just come back and made a better post after you've ate and written your essay?

Yeah - this isn't necessarily a good thing. Like I said we were all compromising on our targets, you said make sure your vote is in the right place for a lynch - ie who ever is at majority at the time. <- scummy

I still wouldn't have had time to write a good post. It would be late and I wouldn't have time to do anything besides jump on the leading bandwagon for the same reason anyway.

I still say there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, what I did pretty much was compromising. I was just changing my vote to compromise with who everyone else decided. The two choices were TK and Soras who both have had a ton of connections/actions surrounding them. I was fine lynching either one of them to get the lynch through.

tl;dr

ortiz incorrectly predicts our response and has a rant about it

my b

----

@ortiz - sorry if you've done this and I missed it somehow, I haven't read that mini-wall on this page yet, but can I get a top 3 scum reads and just like a sentence or two each for why?

I briefly mentioned it.

CB
Soras
Pie

Reasons for the first two are the same as all game. Soras is quoted in my wall. CB has still contributed to nothing and been all around scummy. (Basically what I said earlier in a short sentence) And to explain Pie I think I need to make a wall. I feel like I've seen a ton of scummy things in his posts that I can't just list off the top of my head. Calling me out for lurking (and pushing it) was the most recent reason. I'll post the rest when I have time to go through his 74 (>_>) posts.

Also, I haven't really re-evaluated Soras in a while. A lot of people said he was town so I need to reread his play from the last few pages and see why everyone changed reads.
----

Z: It would probably be too difficult to ask for everything that you assigned those points for? I'm mainly interested in the 3 +S's right off the bat. They were all 3 before I self-voted apparently and I didn't even know I posted 3 times already at that point >_>.

[ortiz1193]

I don't like el simo's reaction to Olinea's efforts there. Olinea looks like he's legitimately trying to scumhunt. el simo giving him scumpoints because of what the scum in the other game did + the fact that Olinea isn't pushing el simo at all is definitely an overreaction.

Yes this game is boring. The extension made it go from super active to the complete opposite.

I'd be up for a lynch of CB, Soras, Pie, and I could be convinced to lynch TK because of the wagoning and connections associated with him.

[ortiz1193]

I don't like el simo's reaction to Olinea's efforts there. Olinea looks like he's legitimately trying to scumhunt. el simo giving him scumpoints because of what the scum in the other game did + the fact that Olinea isn't pushing el simo at all is definitely an overreaction.

What, that doesn't make sense. I'm also trying to scum hunt, I'm using documented evidence about scum and using it as a tell. How come is scum hunting (albeit incorrect) is legitimate but mine isn't?

Do you disagree with my tell?

Then say so and argue that.

Over reaction? Please. It's a legitimate tell.

I'm still ok putting down a 3K hammer at the deadline.

I don't understand your tell then. Olinea went out of his way to find out if that game went like Furcolow said it did, and you came in and said something along the lines of "scum tried to push my wagon in that game, scumpoints for you." Olinea wasn't even casting suspicion on you from what I could tell, and I just don't see where that came from. If I'm misunderstanding the situation tell me, but I don't even see a scumtell there. Your next post tried to explain it but I didn't get it apparently. From my understanding, yes you overreacted to him questioning Furcolow like he was pushing you, which he wasn't.

Also, this is WIFOM, but Olinea looking to another game to validate someone's claims is about as town as it gets.

[ortiz1193]

Meh, missed all the action. Atleast the day is finally over with.

Chamber is the only person I feel strongly is town right now.

[ortiz1193]

Wow. That leaves Pie as the last one on my scum list. I suck.

With three of the scummiest players flipping town, scum probably manipulated the town big time. Pie makes the most sense to me, but I'll hold off until I've reread everything.

[ortiz1193]

Otiz1193 - interesting interactions with ip, wishy-washiness - I also found this:

I still don't like Olinea's play. He rarely posts and avoids all major wagons when he does. I mentioned this earlier but I'm pretty sure I got no responses from anyone on the matter.

Is there anything you want me to comment on? I realize the activity could be better but I think anything major that's happened I've given my views on it.

Which major wagons have I avoided? I've had soras pegged as town for a while and nothing else major jumps to mind.

Nothing specific. The problem is you play exactly like I used to as scum.

You post in a really protown style and then avoid voting for the people who are under suspicion to avoid voting for a mislynch, which makes you look more town.

For example, we had like 4 scum candidates at one point that everyone's attention was on, you posted and called Soras town and then voted Umbrage (who wasn't suspicious at the time.) It's just a style I'm familiar with and it makes you seem likely scum to me.

Note that he left his vote on cyberbob for the majority of the day. Not only was cyberbob town but he got up to a grand total of 2 whole votes at one point. I would say he was "avoiding voting for the people who are under suspicion".

This is the 2nd time you've come up with a bullshit reason to vote me. This is a complete misrep. My vote was on el simo, umbrage, and soras during Day 1, who all had wagons on them. Olinea had his vote on Umbrage pretty much the entire day, who hadn't been a lynch candidate since the beginning of the game when I posted that. The whole point of what I said was that he would make a townie-sounding post, and then stay out of the action for most of the day. Pretty much the complete opposite of my play.

You called me wishy-washy again, prove it. Show me something wishy-washy I did because you're just making stuff up now. I'm pretty sure I already proved you wrong on this earlier.

vote: ThAdmiral

, from the looks of it, the scummiest people entering the day are me/Admiral/Z. Makes sense he would push me right off the bat.

Thirdkoopa (4) Sorasgoof, Cyberbob

, InflatablePie, ThAdmiral

Thirdkoopa (4) Sorasgoof, Cyberbob

, Furcolow, ThAdmiral,

These are the two wagons we can look at with the best chance of getting scum imo. Between Pie, Admiral, Furcolow, Admiral stayed on the wagon.

tl;dr

Complete misrep (again) to push my mislynch + VCA = scum

[ortiz1193]

holy shit quick lynch

[ortiz1193]

LOL at Pie being town too. I fucking suck at this game.

VT claim is worthless, two PRs flipping already is probably all of them. The case makes sense. Voting at the end of the wagon like that without waiting for a claim means Z is likely bussing. Furcolow's play is consistent with his supposed meta. Z's vote isn't. I would expect furcolow to be annoyingly reckless. Z comes off as a better player than that. Most likely not LyLo unless its a Bastard Mod or something else that would make me hate diddin. Might as well.

If Z isn't scum, lynch me tomorrow. I live life on the edge.

vote: Z

[ortiz1193]

vote: olinea

[ortiz1193]

Pie, you made a post that assumed 3 scum after 2 kills that night... We knew 3 scum meant no SK, so vig was likely. Town should've auto assumed a SK imo... you assuming 3 scum like that was pretty obvious you made the kill.

I was so obviously scum, I'm embarrassed.

Nice job CB, Pie, El Simo, everyone else who realized how obvious I was.

PLEASE NOTE THE TRAIL OF DEATHS OF PEOPLE WHO SUSPECTED ME

2 posts in the last 2 days = lol

I thought the setup was terrible until Olinea's claim. I like it now though.

[ortiz1193]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/ywFkAkEZwrHm

[ortiz1193]

3 scum, 3 PRs... what exactly do you consider a normal amount of VTs? This seems pretty standard to me.

[ortiz1193]

Pie I would have claimed VT and only VT at that point. I wouldn't claim a 4th PR in a normal game. I like getting creative in theme games >_>.

In the nicest way possible, Furcolow failed. I should've been the only possible lynch at that point. Voting Olinea out of nowhere makes no sense. The logic there just baffles me. My hammer on Z yesterday was bad enough .

Any thoughts on the QT?