Open 269: Multirole Mafia: Over. Town Win

[ThAdmiral]

Confirm

Questions: are all the listed abilities in the game? Can any of the abilities be scum or town?

[ThAdmiral]

Confirm

Questions: are all the listed abilities in the game? Can any of the abilities be scum or town?

One of each ability listed above (i.e.

one

killing role) is in the game (2 neighbours obv.). Any ability can be town or scum, and the only variations are in Killing role (Vig/Strongman) and Investigative role (Alignment/Role cop).

Thanks. The colours really help as well. Were they there before and I just didn't notice them?

They were in my mod notes, but I'd forgotten to include them initially in the OP.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh and I vote we policy lynch andrew.

Lol I think I know why.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh and I vote we policy lynch andrew.

Lol I think I know why.

That was bullshit.

I still had fun.

[ThAdmiral]

If he plays like last game I'll be up for policy lynching Andrew.

[ThAdmiral]

I reckon we can break the game with chaotic's and my abilities.

If I can just get off my three-shot-per-night-vig/investigation role we should be sweet.

[ThAdmiral]

Actually I hate the rvs...

vote: implosion

I feel you have been tunneling gandalf and keep bringing up the fact that he is posting elsewhere to throw mud on his name. It is christmas and he may only have enough time for the games he is currently playing in.

[ThAdmiral]

As I said in my last post, I believe andrew to be easy to read. It's as chkflip says.
I've only played one game with him, but it was enough to classify him as easily readable in the right circumstances. And these circumstances won't appear on page 3, that's for sure.

chesskid is probably scum, so yeah.
VOTE: chesskid

Well it sure sounds like you have enough experience with andrew to make a reliable call on that.

Because the target of crappy psuedo-not random votes early on D1 is always town?

Haha. You're funny. Town(I doubt scum would make a claim this ridiculous), but hilarious.

What's hilarious is how similar this game is to the last one. I'm guessing andrew and gandalf are scum then?

[ThAdmiral]

Nah, gandalf is town in this one.

You said that last game as well...

The similarities really are uncanny.
I would suggest to other people to read that game as a whole bunch of us played it so you could possibly farm it for reads.

Link:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15612

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral acting like the fact that this game has similarities to a game where I was scum means that I must be scum this game is way more scummy than Chevre.

I have no beef with you unless you start lying again.

[ThAdmiral]

Link:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15612

Thanks. I've give that a look over.

BTW now I read all your posts in this voice

Well that's exactly how I sound.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not going to pretend like I have anything to add here. The only thing that strikes out to me is that chesskid seems like a total jag and I doubt I'll be listening to anything he has to say.

I'm not going to pretend like I don't think this is scum trying to float through the first few pages.

VOTE: JesseSheffield

Using his own words against him. Lol.

Ok, so Chesskid and Smashbro are scum. Akira and implosion are town.

Yay! Yet another person who says "these people are scum and these people are town" and provides no reasoning why. I'm loving this trend in mafia; it makes games more skill based and fun! (THAT WAS SARCASM)

[ThAdmiral]

Why the wagon in the first place. I sort of missed it being put together.

I am usually against wagons this early as there is normally something fishy about them.

[ThAdmiral]

Quite a few people look bad from yesterdays wagon, the worst for mine were the last three to jump on: smashbro, sleepless and gandalf.

also, i'm going to

vote: chesskid

to start. Not particularly liking his idea of a policy lynch, also, something interesting in ISO.

Nah, gandalf is town in this one.

I wouldn't mind some dead gandalf.

so, chesskid. reasoning behind this?

Not liking the policy lynch is a very weak reason to vote, especially since chess stopped pushing for it. Also chess often contradicts himself like the example above. As weird as it may seem it isn't a scumtell for chess.

Ok, so Chesskid and Smashbro are scum. Akira and implosion are town.

Vote Chesskid

To anyone with a problem with L-1 this early, suck it.

I've seen a few chesskid games where he says stupid shit and I'm thinking "the guy's obvtown" while he's being attacked. This isn't one of those games.

There is lots of things about this post that is bad. Saying certain people are scum and town with no reason is bad. Also not explaining what is different about this game to other games where chess is obvtown is bad. There is also a strong difference between someone being not obvtown and scum.

VOTE: chesskid

I realize he's on vacation, but if he has time to do that, he has time to explain his opinion-flip.

Hammering without a claim. Wtf?

All three are terribly scummy. I will decide who I want to vote after all three have responded.

[ThAdmiral]

Actually gandalf obviously can't respond...

vote: sleepless

I feel he was the scummiest by a slight margin.

[ThAdmiral]

@ ThAD

--- I figured that I could get a better read on players by joining a wagon, and I decided it would either be chess or chevre for best effect. I wasn't very convinced about Chevre being scum, and chess seemed to be scummier, so I thought I would vote him, and point out the contradiction, which had yet to be mentioned. I assumed that people would know that I agreed with what they called him scummy for. Still, I definitely wasn't ready for a lynch on him, and was surprised when it happened.

Ok.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't think gandalf is crummy enough to leave someone else in his own pile of shit if he felt he was going to get busted as scum. If he is I will be disappointed.

[ThAdmiral]

Usually, he seems to have town's best interest in mind, though he's always viewed as scummy. In this game, I just didn't see that.

This makes sense.

Pretty sure Gandalf replaced out of all of his games.

This changes things.

Also @ sleepless: good analysis.

I'd prefer an akira lynch.

unvote, vote: akira

[ThAdmiral]

Too scummy to be scum? Really?

Yeah. I'm really not sure if a scum player would put down a hammer this early and bring all of the attention to himself. it seems like scum players would play more cautiously.

I've played with gandalf before and he can be pretty cavalier as scum.

[ThAdmiral]

I feel he would be the type to hammer like that as scum, but I didn't think he'd then replace out and make someone else deal with his mess. Since he is replacing out of all his games though, it is possible.

[ThAdmiral]

I've been meaning to post something more meaningful for a few days and haven't had time, but do today! Basically I feel like akira has been scummier than chkflip. Here's why:

Both talk about andrew at the start. In fact they are both against lynching andrew but for different reasons.
Chkflip:

I just finished a game where all his 'gut' reads were spot on. Finished a newbgame some time back where he whooped my ass with a gambit. So, to say the least, I don't support an andrew PL as a) I don't support PL's period, and b) we can easily attribute him to being townie/scummy by the way he acts... it just takes a VI filter.

Defensive? I'm anti-PL as it is, they're simply too anti-town for my liking. I, personally, have never seen a situation that gained for the town from a policy lynch. So it's with that in mind that I say "hey, let's at least give him a chance first"; however, that doesn't mean I like the guy's playstyle any more than anyone else who's played with him. I'm not psychic (not to mention the fact that we're only on page 3), so I couldn't give you an exact figure, but there's just a certain angle he takes when he's scum. Not necessarily that his whole demeanor is different or his opinion flip-flops or anything over the top like that, it's moreso his stance when being put under pressure.

Though that's a common tell, don't you think?

Akira:

It's actually pretty easy to recognize a scummy andrew from a town andrew. Let's have a long day and we'll soon be able to meta him.

As I said in my last post, I believe andrew to be easy to read. It's as chkflip says.
I've only played one game with him, but it was enough to classify him as easily readable in the right circumstances. And these circumstances won't appear on page 3, that's for sure.

Well it sure sounds like you have enough experience with andrew to make a reliable call on that.

Not me alone, I guess it was other players telling me about andrew's behavior which made me sure about it.

Chkflip has a pretty strong reasoning for not wanting to lynch andrew, i.e. that he can be quite effective as town and that he is against policy lynches no matter what because he has never seen them help the town. Furthermore he believes andrew can be read as town or scum depending on his playstyle.
Akira also says that he believes andrew can be read as town or scum depending on his playstyle, however when he is called on it he says that he claimed this because of one game's experience with andrew, and then when called on this further he says it was only because of other people's reading of andrew's playstyle rather than his own.
Chkflip's reasoning makes sense, akira's is quite a bit more flimsy. I'm not sure why he would want to defend andrew but it could be for a number of reasons. If andrew is town he could be getting town points for defending him, or even be setting him up as an easy lynch later on. If andrew is scum then it would be obvious why he wouldn't want him to be policy lynched.

Akira's vote on chess is bad too:

chesskid is probably scum, so yeah.
VOTE: chesskid

This was all he said on why he was voting chess, and he kept his vote on him the entire day because of this.

Admittedly chkflip's vote on jessesheffield isn't much better, but at least he has something resembling a reason:

I'm not going to pretend like I have anything to add here. The only thing that strikes out to me is that chesskid seems like a total jag and I doubt I'll be listening to anything he has to say.

I'm not going to pretend like I don't think this is scum trying to float through the first few pages.

VOTE: JesseSheffield

[ThAdmiral]

Regarding chesskid, I thought I wouldn't have needed to state a reason after all his weird behavior. I've seen people do it all the time and thought this was one of those situations where the vote was 'self-explanatory'.
I should've drawn a line between scumminess and just plain VI.

Can you explain now what was scummy about what he was doing. In particular what was the scum motivation for playing the way he was playing?

[ThAdmiral]

competing wagons. Awesome.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, have no nothing more to say? What's your opinion of them? Do you find that one is more likely to be scum than the other? All I see from your last post is a bump so you avoid being prodded.

Read again. I've already clearly stated who I think is more likely scum out of you and Akira.

[ThAdmiral]

I know, I just wanted to see if anything new had developed from there.

Not really. I still think akira is more likely scum.

[ThAdmiral]

So if chk votes akira and smash votes chk it looks like Luna lovegood has the deciding vote.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable about that.

[ThAdmiral]

Because instead of taking a stand on the two leading wagons he evasively chose to vote for shotty.

[ThAdmiral]

Yo sleepless. Don't think you can make one good post when the heat was on and then disappear.

Where you at?

[ThAdmiral]

Do you have anything interesting to tell us akira?

[ThAdmiral]

Do you have anything interesting to tell us akira?

Is this asking for a claim? If so, why so indirect? Also, shouldn't Akira wait for L-1 with a willing hammerer?

I thought it was pretty obvious I was asking for a claim. I felt like asking for one in an unconventional way. Is that scummy of me?

Chevre has indicated an inclination towards akira.

[ThAdmiral]

I would be happy with a lynch of chkflip or andrew.
What do we all think about chevre going after shotty so hard yesterday? I think shotty is probably town because of it.

[ThAdmiral]

Cool. Why?

[ThAdmiral]

I don't like to comment on night kills. Why is that scum?

@ chronopie: with the mafia goons that have died - if they had any abilities would you have told us?

Yes. All abilities are announced upon death, be they Town or scum. Therefore the goons

are

just goons

[ThAdmiral]

so with 6 of us remaining there is:
1 town vig
1 neighbor
1 blocker
1 protector
1 inspector

note that roles can double up.

I don't think there is a way to break the game with a massclaim just yet, but I will think on this further.

[ThAdmiral]

the roles ARE doubled up..
apart from 1 of them

When I said roles can double up I mean someone can be both neighbor and tracker, like smashbro was.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd spent Day 1 avoiding the Chesskid lynch like the plague, but never really going out of his way to redirect the lynch.

Day 2, he comes right out and attacks the Chesskid voters. It's like he wanted Chess lynched, but kept his hands clean.

An interesting way to twist things. You could also say I was being consistent with my day 1 dislike of the wagon. The only reason I didn't "go out of my way to redirect it" is I thought there would at least be a claim and some discussion before someone hammered.

Then Day 2, he wants to test the waters to see whose hands have the most rope burn. He lands on me, but I come back with a case on Akira and chkflip. ThAd chooses Akira (chkflip is ThAd's scumbuddy) and runs with that. So he piggybacks off of somebody who he thought was scum. I don't buy that.

You came back with a good case and what looked to be some genuine scum-hunting which changed my perspective of you. I note that you didn't have any problems with me "piggybacking" your case yesterday. Why only bring it up now?

Also, looking at our flipped scum, ThAd only mentions Chaotic in jokes (twice) and

only mentions Chevre after the scum flip.

Lol, flat out lie. I mentioned him multiple times near the end of day 2. I even called him out on avoiding choosing between akira and chkflip.

I especially like this bit of his case:

chkflip is ThAd's scumbuddy

So wait, there's 4 scum in this game now?
Get it together, man.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Andrew: I've had a think about it as well and I'm not sure we can break the game at this point, although certain variations of the distribution of roles I believe would allow us to.
It's quite the mind-tingling logic puzzle. I'm still working on it though so there may be a way yet.

[ThAdmiral]

That should be obvious but: I am not the inspector or I have not received a guilty yet.

[ThAdmiral]

...or you are not the inspector, right

[ThAdmiral]

questions for the mod:

1. can wacky combinations like scum blocker with the added bonus scum block ability exist? And if so, would they get to block two different people in one night?

No, Scum cannot double up RB. Or gain both Cop and InvImm. or Killing and BP

2. you say in the examples for the possible scum roles that if scum get none of the regular abilities they get all three scum bonus abilities, and if they get 1 regular ability they get 1 of the bonus scum roles. So am I to believe that if they get 2 regular abilities they get none of the bonus scum abilities?

Correct

3. Andrew mentioned this before but can I confirm that a player can get no more than two abilities, i.e. that the last scum player does not have all 3 bonus scum abilities?

The ability cap (including any scum bonuses) is the same value as n (which can be between 1-3, but is across all players).

I feel like this can actually be worked out. I've made a document and am charting up all the possibilities.

[ThAdmiral]

Actually it doesn't look like this can be worked out.

Luckilly we are in a very good position anyway and chances are a mass claim tomorrow will be able to break the game.

[ThAdmiral]

anyone?

[ThAdmiral]

It should be obvious by now but it's not me.

[ThAdmiral]

This argument is hilarious.

[ThAdmiral]

Are you the inspector?

[ThAdmiral]

ok andrew - what is the next stage of your plan?

[ThAdmiral]

We're half way to full claiming. Should we just go all the way?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm with andrew. I don't think he'd try to take the lead like this unless he was indeed town.

Lead away andrew.

[ThAdmiral]

vote morthax

if morthax is scum we win
if morthax is town, then we only have 2 confirms, and the scum has 2/3 of the abiltieis

Which abilitieis?

[ThAdmiral]

Cake?

[ThAdmiral]

Seriously though I agree.

We should lynch someone else. Sleepless assassin anyone?

[ThAdmiral]

My theory is that if mothrax doesn't come back with an investigation result on someone who is still alive tomorrow then we talk about killing him.

[ThAdmiral]

thanks chrono

[ThAdmiral]

Ok in my opinion:

Mothrax is not our lynch today, as stated if he doesn't come up with results tomorrow then we can start talking about it.
I am not the lynch today, I came back as innocent and while I could have investigation immunity that is once again something to address after a massclaim tomorrow.
Andrew is not the lynch today, he has stated that he has a role that proves he is town

Therefore we have shotty, implosion and sleepless to choose from for the lynch and the vig.
We need to choose pretty quickly.

I would have said sleepless as it seemed he was trying to lurk under the radar, but I will wait to hear what he says.
Other than that shotty is already on 2 votes so would probably be the easiest to lynch at this point.

[ThAdmiral]

Did I?

I'll just go check.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh I did too.

Yeah I would probably prefer sleepless for the lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

err

in the sorcerors game, i think i argued with you hardcore because you said someone going back to check what they wrote is scummy = =
facepalm*

That was a totally different situation. I said shotty was probably town weeks ago, whereas the dude had to go back and check something he wrote a day ago.[/offtopic]

[ThAdmiral]

Is he?

Anyway I'm thinking it would be good to kill the two people who contributed to the quicklynch on chess day 1.
That would be sleepless and shotty (gandalf).

[ThAdmiral]

2 confirmed scum were already found to be on that wagon.

[ThAdmiral]

we're never going to lynch anyone at this rate.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh screw it.

vote: implosion

he's at -1 now.

[ThAdmiral]

Annoying I was blocked day 1, but other than happy very happy with a town win.

Thanks andrew! This makes up for sitmoa.

[ThAdmiral]

^ dont you mean night 1

Uh... yeah.

i won in sitmoa = =

And I still hate you for it.

But less so now.