Newbie 1046: Game Over

[AwesomePoe]

Can you all answer these please!

1. Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.

2. Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?
3. Have you read at least one completed game on site?
4. What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

NOTE: I do not encourage random questioning about game theory because I've seen it be devastating for town before. (I should know, I was the scum asking the questions! >.<)

1. I'm most around the mafia forum around late evening to just after midnight. After midnight the internet consumption devolves into very private me-time.
2. I've read a few day one threads, but I didn't follow any into day two. It's a shame because most of the interesting scum hunting comes after the first night kill.
3. No, I'm sorry to say I haven't read one all the way.
4. This is my very first game. But I've read the first parts of many newbie games so I know RVS are nothing but fluff.

Vote: Deer

Deer took the longest time to confirm. He has already given me such a scummy void, his post are like black darkness bottoming out under the universe.

[AwesomePoe]

In the RVS, the only motatvation for anyone one to vote is to drive the game forward. Its a reflection of the pre-game state of things. This state is unobserverable and yet it is the most important state of the game, because pre-game everyone was given their roles. RVS by itself is useless. The scum hunting after RVS is much more observerable. We can theorize the motivation of a player's post after attention has been drawn to them.

fluff -> RSV -> d1 scumhunt

@Haylen: I wanted to see how Deer would handle more attention on him early in the game. As of now fairly well. Being SE, he should have the mad tact to play off RVS pressure.

@WhenInRome: You should take caution defending people you do not know. I don't know your motives but buddying up to me looks more scummy on you then me.

@Deer: I voted for you because I felt like giving you a hard time, and you must have the mad tact to handle two votes on you. I don't want to start a wagon on people solely on RSV.

[AwesomePoe]

I am a fan of voting people I have suspicions on. But I am also I fan of getting real information from the people I vote. My first vote got the attention of Deer and WIR. Deer asked my a question which I answered. Simple I don't really have a read on Deer.

unvote

WIR saw me vote Deer and tried to answer for me.

I like giving my own answers to questions directed at me. Being potty trained I know how to handle my own business. When somebody else trys to answer for me, I start suspecting them trying to direct the flow of the conversation. WIR put the first vote on Deer. If scum vote somebody RVS they would not want their vote to be questioned. Neither would they want other people who incidentally voted with them to be questioned. That's two votes towards a mislynch as freebies.

WIR is the scummiest atm, and my finger of suspicion is on him.

[AwesomePoe]

Random thoughts aren't constructive. They don't make good cases for voting, nor do they clearify another person's actions. Reading your post, WhenInRome, I don't understand what point any of these thoughts make.

1. So Haylen's comment seems out of place, but she must be either town or scum. she can't be anything else. There is no third option. Her comment is meaningful to her post. The fact is WIFOM is coming so decide which side of the scum fence Haylen seems to be on, and contiune on.

skipping ahead

4. You are refering to your response when Deer asked me why I voted the same as you. Which is not what Ghostlin was talking about at all. He was talking about a pattern he has seen in some other games. If you do not want to follow the pattern just don't do it. Justifying scummy actions and scummy patterns is not the way to get attention away from your self.

5. This isn't a contradiction or a scumtell. RVS actions can lead to some really good scumhunting, but you don't really have to like it. Coding C++ is frustrating but really awesome too because I have to build almost everything from square one. Which is what RVS is, square one.

Your reason for voting Deer is not strong.

Vote: WhenInRome

[AwesomePoe]

I know smart scum will act as if they were just as blind as town. Scum will not in normal circumstances defend other scum from wagons forming around them. They may even jump on the wagon. But They would never hammer their own scum buddy on day one. Later in the game they might need to gain a advantage.

Scum want to blend in to town wagons, but they don't want their buddies lynch too early. WIR is the scummiest wagon until the next wagon that rolls around. Ghostlin voted for him then in a short period of time unvoted him.

@Ghostlin: I understand unvoting the quick lynch because a quick lynch doesn't yield much info for day two. I can imagine long days getting really tense towards the deadline. Are there any strong scum reads then WIR atm? And if this were a deadline situation would you stick with the wagon to the lynch?

@StephenB: You unvoted ghostlin. Ghostlin has been the most active but do you think his actions are helpful or hurtful to town?

[AwesomePoe]

- Nothing strikes me as particularly odd until your second post in the game. It's not really the fact that you more or less contradict yourself in the post (because I fully grasp the concept) but moreso the persnickety attitude you have in it. I'd certainly hope you've been potty trained, so really that's just aggressive fluff and quite anti-town in my book. We don't need to slap-fight, we need to play Mafia. Having played a THOUSAND games, Mr. Exaggerator, you should know that.

- CWUTIDIDTHAR? See how harsh wordplay can offend people? Not exactly 'ad hom' but it's not exactly nice, either. Don't get me wrong, though, as I don't want us all holding hands singing freakin coombaya and roasting smores (s'more what?) or anything, but we should try to keep it civil.

Yes I’m taking a certain attitude for this game. I am being cautious around people who seem to be friendly. WIR tried to help me and that felt incredibly wrong. I felt incredibly strong buddying from WIR so I am taking the opposite stance. I am not taking for granted anybody’s town status. This might distance me from others or put them off, but it’s the play style I’m going with.

- Only two posts later we see you again, being even more aggressive and now acquiring tunnelvision. Sure, it could be because of WIR's post between your two posts, but I see it more like scum trying to turn an FoS into a solid (looking) vote. Who are you to say that random thoughts don't get anywhere? I'm a heavy advocate for random thoughts -- I call it thinking outside of the box, which is exactly what WIR's 52 reads to me. It certainly isn't indicative to his alignment, not at all, but you seem to take anything he says and twist it to your scum-motivated liking. THEN, if blasting his thoughts wasn't enough... you... I don't even know what to call this spectacular contradiction. If thinking this randomly is worthless, why WASTE THE TIME (which is what you'd think) ANSWERING THEM? So you can build a fakecase against WIR, I see. And a weak one at that. The last sentence is like the cherry on top of this sweet scum!dae. "Your reason for voting Deer is not strong." And you picking apart three of his "worthless" random thoughts on top of a single tactic that put a sour taste in your mouth... that's better? I think not.

Follow my train of thought, just for a second. I had a scum read on WIR but I did not want to jump on his wagon straight away. I wanted to wait until he posted answers some other people’s questions before I voted him. I put my FoS on him. When he came back with iso 9, he didn’t put up a case for his town status. He did make a weak reason for voting Deer, which was where his vote was already. That was when I voted WIR. I held back before putting him at L-2, because like Ghostlin, I wanted some more information from him not just a quick lynch.

- Your final post strikes a chord with me as well. How do you know how scum will act? How does any of that wine help us in the slightest? The reddest of all the flags in this post is the fact that you point out that SCUM WANT TO BLEND IN TO TOWN WAGONS. Oh, OH, you mean like you blending so perfectly into WIR's wagon?

Yes this was terrible on my part. Rereading my post, it just sucks. I was curious of Ghostlin’s actions. He has been posting a lot but I didn’t understand what he was trying to do with all his posts. He wasn’t building any wagons, but he was posting a bunch of theory out there. I saw him take his vote off of WIR and I read him scummy. Rereading, it’s much less scummy and a lot more town.

[AwesomePoe]

As for my suspicion of Ghostlin: I expected some different actions from him after taking his vote off WIR. I concluded that Ghostlin was going to build a case against some other player to have an alternative to vote WIR. In this way he could seem to be on the WIR wagon without intending to see the wagon to lynch. It would make since if they were scumbuddies. But I realized it is much too early in the game to look for scum pairs yet. Also I see he has put his vote on WIR, so I see some pretty big holes in that theory.

As for reactions to hurristat: I don’t like them. While cflip had some amazing insight, hurristat I found lacking. cflip was the first to talk about the increasing surety of my posts toward voting WIR. He saw it as aggressive and bull-headed. A sure anti-town tell, whether it comes from scum or town. hurristat on the other hand makes his case that WIR posted meaning commentary. I still hold fast to my opinion of that post. It was not very helpful to town. I still can not understand what points he was trying to make. This makes hurristat’s vote weaker than cfilp’s.

I just saw a strange post that nobody has commented on yet. After hurristat posted his player analysis in which he puts the FoS on me, Deer posted a quick question and then hurristat voted me. It might have been Deer giving hurristat a push to go ahead and vote for me. If that is the case then Deer might be directing votes towards me.

@Deer: Why did you assume hurristat forgot to vote? He stated his player analysis but he didn’t have to put his vote on anyone yet.

[AwesomePoe]

This post stood out to me:

Random thoughts aren't constructive. They don't make good cases for voting, nor do they clarify another person's actions. Reading your post, WhenInRome, I don't understand what point any of these thoughts make.

WhenInRome was adding his input to the town, and AwesomePoe dismisses it as "not constructive" and "pointless." As far as I'm concerned, any input is helpful, even if they're mafia -- they could slip up and make a mistake, and if they're town, they probably have good ideas that the rest of the town can benefit from (which is why my lurking is so bad). Trying to shut someone up because you don't like their argument...

Here is the thing, there weren’t any arguments in WIR iso9 that I found informative. The case against me is based on my reaction to WIR09. You can objectively see my FoS turn into a vote after WIR09. This can be seen as tunneling. However the content of WIR09 and its meaningfulness is subjective. Most of his points were parroted from other posters. To me, he wasn’t being constructive he was trying to look like town without putting in the effort. This couple with his vote on Deer convinced me to put my vote on him.

AP didn't say anything until chkflip's diagnosis, where s/he said this:

I am being cautious around people who seem to be friendly.

yes, and this is good... but it's almost like s/he's looking for a reason to vote/put an FoS on someone, and not allowing the target of the FoS to exonerate themselves. Ultimately, all the town has on their side is logic and reason, and s/he dismisses it as "not constructive" and "pointless."

Many other people have asked for his defense which he has yet to provide. You can’t say I’m not allowing him to exonerate himself when others have asked for it, and they haven’t had their concerns answered. I throw up my hands because I’m powerless to control WIR posting. As soon as people have a reason to remove their votes on him, they will.

@Ghostlin & Everybody: I want to see WIR claim and defend himself from the very possible lynch.

[AwesomePoe]

These are the analysis of players voting patterns. This will focus only on players voting on the first day. I will exclude myself and the deceased. I leave that for you to pounder. The keywords are as follows: Stable means having a voting pattern that does not vary more than twice. Unstable means having a voting pattern that varys more than twice. Lurker is the posting pattern of a not posting for much of the day. Active means posting a lot throughout the day. Passive means posting very little throughout the day. Non-aggressive means building or jumping on wagons a small amount of the time. Aggressive means building or jumping on a wagon many times.

cflip: lurker for the beginning of the game before making his player analysis and voting for AP. Held his vote for most of day one. While he may have started later than most, he was consistent through day one. Stable, active.

Ghostlin: active for the entire day, probed players for answers. the most prolific. Voted hurri before he stopped lurking. Voted WIR before the second wagon developed on him. While the most active he was the least aggressive during day one. Stable, active non-aggressive.

hurri: lurker for most of day one, submitted his player analysis after Ghostlin voted him. Voted AP and held his vote. hurri was the least active during the first day and voted after cflip. It wasn’t until he got Ghostlin’s attention that hurri started to be active. Stable, lurker.

nikit: active during the first part of the day. His RVS vote was on Ghostlin, which he forgot to take off until the last third of the day. Was the only person not voting at the end of the day. Has not written a player analysis nor started a case for anybody. Stable, lurker.

SB: active during most of the day. However his vote pattern is spread over many different players. He votes day one have been on players who already have a vote on them. At the end of the day he votes for the two most popular wagons, one after the other. Unstable, active aggressive.

Haylen: She is mostly active during day one. Her posting flairs are sometimes a concern but never a real problem. Her vote was on WIR for the first wagon, then she unvotes for part of the day before returning her vote on WIR when it became the popular vote again. Unstable, active non-aggressive.

Deer: His post are brief and concise putting little suspicion on him. Most of day one he has been a neutral read for most people. Like SB he has spread his vote out thin, leaving the smallest impact voting wise. He is invisible to most people, even more so than the lurkers. Unstable, passive.

SB has been putting his vote on 5 people on the first day. I can understand voting for lurker to get them active. But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one. In fact the only people he didn’t vote were hurri and cflip. hurri wasn’t active during the first part of the day but SB didn’t notice or didn’t grace him with a vote. SB looks scummy because she had a voting lurkers policy she didn’t extend to hurri.

IGMEOY: SB

Nikit is another player I want to bring attention to. For most of us Ghostlin has been looking pretty pro-town throughout the day. Looking through the voting patterns I see that Nikit voted for Ghostlin for a good part of the day, whatever his reason might be for keeping his vote, and has not voted since. He was also one of the candidates for hammering WIR since his vote was free. Nikit looks scummy for his non-voting voting pattern. He looks like a scum hiding during day one.

Vote: Nikit

[AwesomePoe]

That's L-1 vote on Nikit. L-2 if votes reset each day.

[AwesomePoe]

That's L-1 vote on Nikit. L-2 if votes reset each day.

Vote counts reset each day. So it'd be L-2, not L-1.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

[AwesomePoe]

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5. Actually I was on my own on WIR p99 to p114. This all seems like a nasty defense on something you can’t change and shows something you don’t want other people to see.

You do make one good point. cflip was only barely active because of his player analysis.

@ hurri: I haven't put myself in my analysis. That's why I left myself out of the analysis. I just plain don't say a thing about me. You are not active because during the first part of the day, we don't have many post from you. Then you get active and then you start voting. You are a late-starter more than anything, but that wasn't a objective enough to put in.

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghostlin: yeah that’s a perfectly good analysis. I left myself open so that if somebody wanted to they could look at me and not have to take my word on my voting pattern. The reason I don’t show that vote/unvote was because the time between them was too small, so I didn’t consider it.

I think StefanB is pretty scummy. During day one he was pretty free with his vote, but never got much attention for it. He’s voted for just about everybody, but nobody has really cared, because a few posts later he turns his attention elsewhere. These votes have only put people into the L-3 or L-4. But I could easily see him hammering somebody later in the game when it takes less people to lynch.

Really I don’t care about nikit right now so I’m unvoting.

unvote

.

Awesome Poe wrote:

Sometimes I have the feeling that you don't read my post completely or I am too complicated again. (that was perhaps a little too nasty) What I have got to critique in your post. I didn't have objections to you calling me an unstable voter I had problems with:

But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one.

The last sentence is simply untrue. My vote having no value is something that other players have to decide for themselves, of course you could say that, you are the one I'm voting at the moment. Nasty defense: I think I have been aggressive this game, but rarely nasty, what was so bad about my defense (not counting that I attacked you.)

Something I can't change and don't want other people to see: Yes I can't chance the fact that I was eager to vote on the first day. I had my reasons for it. I think everyone in this game knows the first thing, just reading the game proves that. What you completely missed is the fact that I didn't attack the voting pattern I only attacked your analysis of that voting pattern, hell I didn't even attack anything on it, that was wrong, there are some very interesting gems found on it.

You don’t want any attention drawn to yourself for your votes. You are the most active player here. But you place your votes where they have the least impact. You may vote for someone, but you’re just as likely to vote for some other lurker, or some other popular wagon. Looking at the voting pattern you have a candy cane where other people have milk duds.

The whole last few posts are you trying to expunge the record where all can see it. Just say your vote has as much value as anyone else’s. It’s true, nobody’s vote is more valuable than another. It takes any 5 to lynch.

Another thing:

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5.

Well, I we talk about joining wagons that have already one vote on it and take day 2 in account it gets:

Me being on

3 wagons the whole game

has nothing to do with you being on

4 wagons and not bandwagons

relevant.

Please don’t change my quotes. If you got something to say just say it and not confuse people.

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghostlin: You’ve asked this question persistently and to answer: my vote will speak for itself. My day one method of scum hunting only got rid of a player who didn’t want to play. Call this fence sitting but, nikit is a definite lurker and I don’t see any point of putting my vote on him if nothing is to be gained from it. Later in the day if it’s a deadline situation I’ll come back to it. Right now I am looking everybody.

The term “Unstable” maybe an inaccurate description, but it is only there to describe a pattern. The term “Lurker” is only a term that might be a mislabel, but it’s also just there to describe a pattern. Any good town will keep their own account of the reasons they vote. See how StepahB quickly read out his reasons? But this only came from repeated prodding. His voting pattern doesn't look very good, but his reasons look much better.


With the self hammer of WIR, we don’t have a clear town sanctioned hammer. A scum hammer would be easily visible as a quick vote after L-1. The self hammer of WIR gives us an interesting situation. Backtracking from the self hammer we have Haylen.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post. It’s easy for her to say she didn’t except WIR to self hammer, but if she were uncomfortable lynching people day one, why would she put WIR at L-1? The day would have lasted longer if Haylen had not voted WIR whether or not the self hammer happened.

@Haylen: I know you are just as suspicious of nikit’s lurking as anyone else. Tell us was there anything more you could have gained from having the day last longer than it did?

[AwesomePoe]

I don’t have the need to spill out my game plan for the next few days, because how am I suppose to know if I’m going to be here. Everybody dies in this game, and nobody knows what the next day will bring. I’m being much more active and waiting my time this day, because the day one rush on WIR didn’t get town closer to winning.

I don’t understand. Because I’m not going after nikit, I’m scummy. You did the exact seem thing day one. You voted for WIR then unvoted him because that put him at L-1. And you also wanted to look at some other people day one. What’s the matter? Even if WIR lynched himself,(and I had nothing to do with that) It’s only day two. The mafia weren’t able to kill night and only one town has been mislynched. The situation is not as dire as you make it out to me.

Roll back the clock, for just a bit. Imagine we just had an extremely long RSV and somebody left the game for some real life reason. Which we can say kind-of happened. I’m concerned that maybe you looking too far ahead. Wait until L-2, before you start talking about day three lynchings. With that kind of talk you could be leading the town towards an end game you don’t want. I recognize you have the experience, but this is a game where the wild probability just happens.

You’re behaving much differently day two. Is there a reason for that? Day one you are hands off and let things be as they be. Day two you’re setting the lynch schedule.

[AwesomePoe]

I did find WhenInRome suspicious, however, I would have liked to have gained more talk and information prior to him having hammered himself.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post.

I have to ask you, when you looked at this, did you check the amount of time between what I said between saying I'm not comfortable lynching someone and then putting WIR at L-1? That was 4 days. In those 4 days, WIR had opportunistically jumped on me and started attacking me, and strawmanning, things that would result in a vote from me.

That doesn't matter, there was already a train of people in front of you wanting to question WIR. You didn't have to defend yourself. You L-1 vote should've not been a reaction to WIR. That looks more like OMGUS. Since WIR got all the attention during the last day, most of the lines of questionings have ended in his self hammer. I remember you wanting some feedback from nikit, because he brought up the "before I died" comment. He responded, but I don't know if you accepted his answer.

[AwesomePoe]

mod prod on cflip, please.

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghsotlin: that doesn’t make sense, why would I say that? The point was whether or not WIR self-hammer which nobody saw coming was not the point. The point was Haylen was the last to vote WIR, and she did so when it wasn’t all that necessary. She could have torn down his case with plastic safety scissors, it was so weak, but keep her vote off WIR. WIR was an easy lynch because of his mishandling of the whole game. The players at the tail end of his wagon look scummy, because at that point of the day everyone could make a case against him, town and mafia.

@hurri: you’re leaving out two really anti-town cases in the SB vs AP argument. There are two directions the mafia “->” can go. Does my alignment reflect more on SB, or does vice versa?

If it is the case that both AP and SB are town, then this is day two frustration coming to boil. Two townies are looking for the scum they didn’t find in the day one lynch and are now focusing on the other as the probable scum they missed on day two. However, if it is the case that both AP and SB are both mafia, this is an altogether different animal.

Then the argument is two scum buddies distancing themselves from each other. SB looks more town then scummy to other players, while I look the scummiest to the most town looking players. This case is not likely, because one of the couple is secure in his town status while the other has thrown his security away. Distancing is unnecessary in the current environment.

Remember this, whatever happens this day, it is ultimately more important not to rush. We don’t have much of the info we wanted from day one. Since two players are being replaced. I don’t know how to access their alignment, or even consider them in my day two vote.

[AwesomePoe]

Hello to the new blood, we look forward to playing with you and getting your thoughts on how the game's going so far.

[AwesomePoe]

@Nocman: For the purposes of this game you can assume Ghostlin to be town. throughout the game he has been active in dealing out logical posts that have been pro-town. There is only the weakest and unlikeliest case where Ghostlin is scum. I had my own suspicions but they have all been reversed with more consideration. If Ghostlin is scum, it would take a brilliant case to convince me. The case by Ghostlin on me is based on my know scummy status and the low probability of me being active and pro-town.

The replacements:

The nikit position seemed scummy because of the lurking during day one. Again and again, he promised to be more active but fell through on his promises. It was finally during day two he admitted to being unable to help because he didn’t have enough time. Nikit was not lurking because he wanted to, he was actually just unable to play. So the nikit position that Nocman currently holds is neutral.

The cflip position held by Zach however holds it’s scum status. One of the few posts that made cflip active was the player analysis and vote. At the time, this was a good indication that cflip was being a good town making cases and following through with a vote. Since then he has been totally inactive and gained a lurker status. Being unable to response to the mod prod, the scum status must stay where it is because we have no reason for cflip’s lurking behavior.

People whose play have changed to adapt to day two:

The change of behavior after day one shows interesting changes day two:

Ghostlin who was the most hands off player day one has changed his non-aggressive status. He is more determined about his voting strategy to the point that he has the next few days already planned for. Being the most town I half excepted him to be killed during the night. Either he protected himself or the doctor protected him, because I am not convinced that the mafia no killed. This may explain his more aggressive play needing a plan against the mafia.

As for StephB, he is only slightly likely to be scum. Yes his voting pattern was iffy, but when it was pointed out, he was able to defend his voting. He behaved more like town than scum. His vote day two has been more stable. During day one, he did not have a good read on who was the best candidate for scum. Day two he has a clear understanding of who he should be pressuring and voting. This may be explained by the WIR self-hammer. Before then WIR looked scummier than me so that’s how he voted. Now I have her whole attention because I look scummy and questioned his votes.

People whose play has not changed to day two:

I am not convinced that scum nokilled during the night. hurri’s comment, which was first, tells me he would have been watching the thread pretty closely during the night and would have an idea when the night would be over. That coupled with his doctor comment, leads me to believe his post was fishing for the doctor. That and his behavior and vote have not changed much day two. There is the steady trend of more activity which has not been broken, and his vote has still been on the most scum player, me. hurri seems the most undisturbed by how the night went, and reacts more to the nokill than the WIR lynch.

Haylen has voted for the nikit position lurker, but has not done much else. I only lump her with hurri because I haven’t seem a definite change in play yet.

Deer has continued to be nearly invisible.

One more point on hurri, he did not consider that both me and SB being town and has since demoted SB to the same scum status as myself. There really isn’t a point for SB to be below Haylen or Deer. The SB vs AP fight reflects more my aggression on SB than SB’s defense.

Vote: hurri

[AwesomePoe]

@ StefanB: excuse me Stefan <space> B. When I read your name I combine the initial with the name and get Stephanie. I got your vote before I attacked you. The nikit position gets a neutral read because of nikit asking to be replaced. But cflip is still a lurking position.

hurri’s first comment may be null by itself, but let me put it under the microscope so you may see what I see. The content of the post is first high energy with all caps, it looks like frustration hidden under excitement. He doesn’t say Great! or Awesome! or Super! It is a one word BLAH. Then he goes on to fish for the doctor in his next sentence.

@hurri :The consistency of play strategy is not by itself scummy or town. The consistency of play is a measure of how much an event impacted the player. The WIR self lynch and the night one nokill were both major events in this game. Following those events it would be in the best interest of town to adapt new play strategies, because day two has changed the game environment. When the environment changes so must town.

@Nocman: In a pinch Deer’s under the radar playing will catch up to him. If it came down to him or anybody else to lynch, we will have to lynch him.

[AwesomePoe]

Wait....are you saying that if it came down to a deadline, you'd lynch deer first above anyone else? That comment doesnt make sense to me, especially looking in the light of other lurking that has happened so far.

I'm staying it has yet to come down to either deer or somebody else. No wagon has been put on Deer to compete with the other wagons. It would be simple to lynch Deer in the next few days for ridiculous lurking. If he continues to be unproductive to town, somebody will take offense vote him and try to start a wagon. Hasn't happened yet because the town has put its wagons elsewhere. Deer continues to be an issue we have put off.

@hurri: you are trying to find scum, right? Or are you not? You don't have to change your play style if you are not hunting for scum. But why would you do that?

[AwesomePoe]

I think you need to look around. A few people have been playing subtlety differently. I don't believe you have nothing to say about WIR's self hammer. We all have our interpretations and that kind of input is valuable. What did you think about it?

[AwesomePoe]

I'll say one thing about the doc issue. I'm from the future. I can here in a time machine that the Doc invented. Now I need his help to get back to the year 1985.

As for hurri's reaction: If you read his meta, WIR was a fairly inexperienced player. In the one other game he played he was lynched D1 for the exact same behavior he showed us D1. This is just to say he was a complete newb then and he was a complete now. Not much to do about it. If a inexperienced player doesn't try to keep up with the more veterned players he will get left behind. If the same player actively obstructs other players progress, he is much more likely to get the boot. Which is what happened here. Because WIR did not grow in experience since his last game and actually hindered town this game, the town lynched him.

It might've sucked when it happened, but we can still use what we learned from WIR (What to do, what not to do). But the situation is incredibly interesting. I can't say I would ever play a game going like this (Self hammer and nokill!). I will count my blessings and continue working towards the town winning condition.

[AwesomePoe]

Actually Haylen, the only thing that really bugged me about you post wise was that bit following your lynch -1 vote of WIR. Also you have been lurking, and while lurking you have been paying attention to other games while ignoring this one... so yeah, there's some nagging things, but you aren't at the top of my suspicions.

I think AwesomePoe is actually the most likely scum. Hurristat's recent posts have give me pause, but he would be my next suspect. Then it would probably be Deer, Haylen and Nocmen in no paticular order. (Nocmen's attack of me 271 in particular was just odd. Twitches me with a thought of possible buddying to Haylen.)

That leaves StefanB and Ghostlin, who strike me as town.

Vote: AwesomePoe

(L-1)

Oh hey could you remind me why you're voting me? I don't see your case against me.

[AwesomePoe]

Looking at their ISOs they both seemed to flake in the same manner. I don't see what you're apparently seeing as differences in their in game activity. It looks indistinguishable to me.

Why are you interested in who the doctor is?

To me that looks like a newbie who's improving through the events of the game. Newbie town in fact.

Agree that this is scummy, but see above, you're openly speculating about who the doctor is.

You’re putting a L-1 vote based on 8 sentences? That’s really scummy. This is not enough to put someone at L-1, because it is not a case. The only reason you’re voting for me is because I notice that there was a doctor in the game.

The first point is dealing with the fact that your position was feeling really scummy because of how the last person lurker first day, voted and then left. The second is stating for fact that we have a doctor. Who cares who? Nobody is going to claim doctor on the off chance of a lynch, and the doctor wouldn’t stick his neck out to be night killed.

[AwesomePoe]

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

[AwesomePoe]

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

There's no logical proof in a mafia game. (Not in terms of proving someone scum through argument anyway.) The only proof you're likely to ever see is setup confirmation and sane cop results, but for everything else, the only thing that's proof is a lynch flip.

You are saying there are no knowns in mafia. That even the logic you use to vote me is nothing but dust in a vaccum? You can’t say that when you are posting in a board designed for long drawn out arguments, while posting your own arguments. Hopping on a wagon is nothing, but providing input to the wagon is much different. You just entered the game, but haven’t even stretch your legs before rushing into an L-1 vote. You aren’t searching for information or trying to figure out the landscape. This vote is scum because it does nothing to further information gathering. You just pop in and say AP is scum.

Look at your counter-part, Nocman, he at least tries to engage people in question before voting. You have jumped on the wagon with no merit to be there.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

If these lurkers were still in the game, providing no content and posting just enough to stay in the game, I'd say your suspicion has merit. But these players flaked, and as such, their inactivity was pretty null.

What sets them apart from say... Deer, who is still as of this post in the game but not active?

Ask him. I’m not his mouth. If you find his lurking scummy vote him. You say that lurking at this point in time is scummy, but your vote is somewhere else. You chose the popular wagon, so that the lynch of the day could come quicker.

[AwesomePoe]

mod, Haylen voted Zach.

[AwesomePoe]

Very busy at this point in time. If you'll be kind enough to give me til tomorrow, I'll claim, response and everything else.

[AwesomePoe]

I claim Town, and when I flip Town you will be sure.

For real about the doctor issue: I don’t know who he is, that’s plain. I have made inferences about who the Doc might have protected. I understand that could send people looking for information that wouldn’t be in the best Town interest. Mostly if we do have a doc, sorry for the stress. The behavior change analysis brought to light some things I could have covered better. That was my only reason to say what I said. I found a pattern in peoples play and I ran with it before considering the scumminess of the post.

Difference between nikit and cflip: nikit didn’t participate in either the scum hunt or actually voting people. He was not like Deer or cflip who had votes on people for a long time throughout the day. If he were scum, he would have at least voted somebody just to have another vote on a wagon. Hell, I gave plenty of scummy material to work with, but he didn’t go for it at all. The nikit position was neutral day one.

If I do get lynched, let me say: I’ve learned what “lynch all lurkers” means and why it’s a common saying. If Town people keep trusting each other you’ll win the game, I’m sure. The lurker positions are deadly to keep around and risky. I do regret some of the risks I made, but not my whole playstyle. Some of it I’ll refresh and review. This is a fun game, pretty long too.

For shits and giggles:

Unvote

Vote Deer

[AwesomePoe]

Since NobodySpeical has replaced in, I am removing my S&G vote on his position, but will revisit based on play.

Unvote

I’m reading Zach as scum for a few reason. I’ve gone through why Zach’s vote on me is scummy because it was a rushed L-1 vote. I also wasnt to point out Ziso11, in it he asks who on the WIR wagon is more scummy. If he didn’t know he should know now that I considered the scumminess of Haylen’s L-1 vote who was on the WIR wagon. I also heavily attacked StefenB’s voting pattern D1. However the cflip position was not on that wagon. That would leave him out of the question, while having me reiterate queries that were not effective.

In Ziso15 he says I misinterpreted what he meant to say but has yet to make his own clarification. He instead insists that make a firm stance on the Deer position. So instead of making his words clear, he would prefer me to make a case for Town Deer or Scum Deer, which I could not make. This was one of the reasons he saw me scummy, the fact that I made the point to say that the cflip position was still scummy but also gave a neutral status to the nikit position. There was one major difference in play, the fact that cflip voted and nikit did not, in fact could not since he asked to be replaced and made it clear why he had to be replaced.

Look at his bolding comments pattern. It’s an ineffectual way of making a defense, because its not. It only flags comments he doesn’t like without addressing the core argument.

After Ghostlin unvoted we see Zach casting mud on Ghostlin. I saw Ghostlin’s unvoting of WIR behavior D1 and called him on it. His unvoting then was not anti-town and it is not now. Ghostlin is playing for a certain condition where a mass claim could expose all scum via a chain of claims. The four points he makes are consistent with Ghostlin’s play throughout the game.

@ Zach: what wagon? There is none on the Deer position. There never was. If you really were at all concerned about the Deer position you would have done something about it. Ghostlin does not have inside knowledge. You are bolding a sentence out of context and ignoring the sentence before.
Also your vote is not scumhunting.

I would feel comfortable lynching Zach. For now I will put him at L-2.

Vote Zach

[AwesomePoe]

If my lynch will say anything. I want it to say: Zach == scum. Somebody hammer, the town has sanctioned this. The candidates are Haylen and Nocman. I want to give my read on these candidates.

Nocman: went through day one and day two posted his comments and reactions to the days events. Came to a conclusion of his two scum picks. He proceed to question me on my Deer policy and accepted it without reservation as what it was. He makes his own effort to get information from NobodySpecial. Has mentioned my possible doc-fishing but hasn't used that information to build any case on me. Instead questions Haylen on what this behavior would be. I can't conclude much from this behavior, but this position was neutral when he got. And it hasn't moved much from there.

Haylen: she(this is the female player, right?) has been in the game since D1. I find her case of meta persuasive. Most of her posts have been informative of how the game is played. Even if I attacked her L-1 vote, there was plenty of time for WIR to claim(and not self-hammer), and plenty of time for WIR to turn himself around. The case based on her L-1 vote was faulty. I take full blame. Yet instead of taking the attack as a means to just place a vote on me. She saw something else in me. And something more dangerous in somebody else.

[AwesomePoe]

There isn't a real reason for you not to lynch me. Its the only why for people to be sure about my alignment, and there are no other real candidates. You had three wagons today, hurri, briefly Zach and me. The AP wagon is going to lynch because I've been around longer. I have no idea why NS asked for more time to read the thread, because honestly if he hammered, that would be awful. NS hasn't been seen as pro-town yet. A hammer from him would look more scummy than anything I ever did. I just want to stop hanging over my head. I also find it unsettling that StefanB took the time to do a PBPiso on me. That effort is wasted because I am already here to hang and there is nobody else to convince that I should be here.

If there is one person I think that should hang with me its Zach. Zach never had his own solid case against me or Ghostlin. He has been aggressive in spreading scum reads on everybody. And he is using the wiki heavily to support himself. He used it in reading hurristat doc-read, and he used it when trying to illicit scum reads from me on people on the WIR wagon. The wiki should not be used as a sword because it isn't true everywhere. Using it in the way Zach used it only gives the appearance of town behavior.

[AwesomePoe]

Its easy because its already happening. You're going to look stupid, I assure you.

[AwesomePoe]

Zach you setting the seeds for a case against StefanB, and I’m not going to help you. If I flip town, you are going to use this against StefanB. If I am town then SB pushing the lynch on me, makes him scummy right? No, it doesn’t.

[AwesomePoe]

If I flip scum, then I would know he was town. You are again spreading scum reads, this time based solely on my posts. But that only works if I have more information than other town. If I have more info my votes would reflect a scummy vote pattern. Before today's lynch you can make all kinds of inferences based on my posts, and build the framework for cases after the lynch. But that only works if I flip scum.

[AwesomePoe]

Poe if you actually are town, you should post a full suspicion list.

No

[AwesomePoe]

suspicion list:
Zach
NS
Zach

[AwesomePoe]

lurker, scummy votes. the deer position is scummy because of ridiculous amounts of lurking d1 and d2. the cflip position is scummy because of lurking, sudden voting and dissappearing d1. zach is scummy because of the way he is slinging scum reads like pancakes, and the way he rushed the L-1 without a proper case.

[AwesomePoe]

Nocman being scum really surprised me. This was a good game to start off in.