Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[Mute]

Hello everyone.
Introductions: I am Mute. This is my second newbie game here.

Vote: Angry Scientist

Your name just reeks of scuminess. WHY SO ANGRY SCIENTIST? YOU GONNA TAKE YOUR ANGER OUT ON US POOR TOWNSFOLK?

[Mute]

Actually:
@Stels/Nacho/Ty- How does one go about making a table in a post? To clarify, it's that thing one can use using BBcode to make a table that looks something like:

TITLE
Side A | Side B
Side A | Side B

I am unaware as to how that code is used to generate a table and would like to for this game.


@Stels: I know of the vote tags, yet I do not use them. The white highlight behind the bolded text is off putting aesthetically for me.

[Mute]

Vote: Angry Scientist

Your name just reeks of scuminess. WHY SO ANGRY SCIENTIST? YOU GONNA TAKE YOUR ANGER OUT ON US POOR TOWNSFOLK?

Nah, I'm cool until you'll call me 'Mad' instead of 'Angry'

VOTE: theplague42

This guy is the plague. The mafia plagues this town. Which means, he's the mafia. QED.

Ah, gotcha. Lemme guess an experiment went wrong and you were angry over the failure? =P
Also your logic is flawless.

Vote: theplague42

[Mute]

1. You're correct, he did. It was farther into the line so I must have missed it. Also, his lack of an unvote made me think that he hadn't voted yet.
2+3. I've read some games where people have been attacked harshly for "being defensive" in the RVS. And my FoS was pointing out something suspicious, not a die-hard scumtell. I am not going to cause myself to get attacked this early without a solid reason for voting.

...oh ****. Sorry, I had forgotten to unvote.

Unvote all votes I've made so far

Actually:
@Stels/Nacho/Ty- How does one go about making a table in a post? To clarify, it's that thing one can use using BBcode to make a table that looks something like:

Does anyone, for that matter, know how to go about making a table?

[Mute]

Hello everyone, I’m Ty. As a Semi-Experienced player I will help answer any gameplay/theory related questions you have about Mafia. Remember though, the other experienced players and I are still going to be playing to our win condition, so do be careful.

Mute

Sorry Mute, I have no idea how to make a table.

1) What’s the most important lesson you learned from your first game?
2) Did you enjoy being the Doctor? Why do you feel you were lynched and how could you have prevented it?
3) What did you think of Nachomamma8 scum in your previous game?

=S
That's okay, thank you for answering anyways. It ties into the way I will be playing this game, and I'd prefer to have a table to demonstrate, as just saying it outright might be confusing.
Specifically, unlike the mindset of "town until highly suspected as scum," I'm going to play with the mindset of "scum with medium probability until highly suspected/proven town."

1) Develop arguments. The "post-more" timidity I feel is a non-issue here, but I am mentioning it in passing anyways. But yeah, to develop arguments and cases against people is what I feel is the area in need of most improvement.
2) Yes, I did, in many ways. I won't let how I played there get to my head here, as it's a new game with a new crowd of people (minus one (Hi nacho )). I am not at all upset about being lynched, and I was lynched due to a lack of being able to form a defense. To prevent it... iuno. I cannot honestly answer that, as I've not thought too much of it. If anything being able to clarify my points with solid evidence would have been the best way to go.
3) I knew from when nacho came in to replace Lateralus22 that his role in that game was scum. As a player I feel he did well, but his former role-player had given me enough clout to find him and then Nacho to be scum. It is that reason I've got the mindset that, even if a person replaces out, the new person does not dictate whether or not that role's alignment is different. They may try to change that perception of their role, which is the case if someone subs in as scum, but I've learned to not dismiss the possibility.

[Mute]

Many thanks Nacho.

Okay, now to illustrate my point:

Players	Percent
theplague42	60
Neuky	60
Workdawg	60
Angry Scientist	60
Naben	60
Stels	60
Ty	60
Nachomamma8	55

This is what I mean.
Everyone starts out at 60, because it is a nice enough a number to prove my point in that I have as much reason to think of everyone as scum as much as they are town. This is to, for me, keep track of how everyone acts, and the scores are rather arbitrary. Nacho is the exception at 55, as our last game together he was scum, and while I don't discredit the possibility of it I would find it hard to believe he'd get scum twice in a row.

If you do not like where you fall on my grid, remember that A) this is a grid I am using for MYSELF, and this does not and should not influence anyone; if you feel someone is scum vote for them on the basis of

your

own reads, and B) I feel your play is worthy of either a high or a low score.

This is in all honesty an experiment on my part on using a number-based system to keep track of scum suspicions. I do not expect it to be perfect and the amounts will fluctuate with my whim. I will not rely on it alone to lynch anyone I feel is scum, merely as a way to keep track and augment my arguments and such. If at all you'd like to see where you fall at any time, just ask.

[Mute]

EBWOP:
Sorry, tired so I forgot to include the ratings, or w/e.

60 = mid-point. Everyone will start here unless otherwise specified.
75 and above= I feel you're scum, and will be watching you more than others.
45 and below = I feel you're town.

46-74 = who knows, I can't get a good read either way.

[Mute]

Mute:

About your table... Sure, it's nice to keep the track of everyone, but what's the reason of revealing that table to us? If you'll be posting the entire table regularly, you're pretty much giving your neutral and town reads all the time, and that helps scum pick their targets at night.

The point of the table was more to get a concrete view of my stance out there. To say "oh yeah, I'm gonna play as everyone is more likely scum than town and gameplay will prove innocence" is nice and all, but it can easily be twisted by scum to be used for whatever bussing/WIFOM reasons against me later on.
I aim to avoid that.
With it out here, then there's a solid "this guy will be scum hunting everyone," so everyone can see that until I find a reason to see you as undeniably town, then I will think you're scum. Is there a flaw with that? Yes. What is it? I don't know at present. I'm sure someone will think of something eventually, and I'll address it then.
As one scientist to another, it's an experiment I'm undertaking... Hopefully the results yield towards my hypothesis.

Also, I am not going to post it regularly, nor even give any warning as to when people go up or down it; I've said only that if someone wants to see my rating of them they have but to ask. Already took that into consideration, and have that taken care of, but thank you for bringing it out regardless.

[Mute]

@Angry:

Indeed. I shall try to cut back on stating the obvious, have a bad habit of it.

@Stels/Dawg:

The scientist comment was made in jest towards Angry. That my using a table this game and that I've never used a numerical system to find scum before (here and off-site) is true.

However, to try and clarify, my stance is that of the military: Guilty until proven innocent. Everyone is liable to cases for them being scum, as they are of being town. The point is to track those out who slip up and reveal themselves to be scum.

It's my stance to look for tells for scum-ness and town-ness. If out of 9, I can deduce that at least 3 people are not scum then that gives me a wider margin to find scum from. What this means, however, is that I don't
and won't discredit anyone as being town or scum fully as I won't know until a flip.
I can understand if my reasoning is not easy to follow. I prefer to let my actions speak for themselves.

Because he randomly switched his vote during RVS. I just don't understand why someone would make a joking vote, then immediately switch to me when someone places a vote on me. And isn't the second vote on a bandwagon generally scum, especially if it doesn't have strong reasoning behind it? I remember that from the wiki.

It's not at all uncommon for votes to fly to and fro during the RVS. So far both of my votes in this game have been just that.

@Stels, Dawg, and Plague:

I am aware of the gamblers fallacy. You're all right in that he has just as much a likelihood of being scum as anyone else. However, I'll take a gamble and bet a small margin of error on my part that he isn't scum this game. I

do

feel he has the chance to be, but I don't find it as likely.

@Neuky:

the list is a tool, yes, that I intend to post updates with it when I feel the need arises, in particular at the start of days. The only reason I can ever see anyone ever asking where they stand to me is if I am accusing them of being scum, using the number I give them as an augment to counter my argument, and do w/e else they would plan to do. I can limit to only posting it with the people I feel to be scum if you and anyone else would like.



Now, these are just some things I've noticed so far.

Hello everyone, I’m Ty. As a Semi-Experienced player I will help answer any gameplay/theory related questions you have about Mafia.

Remember though, the other experienced players and I are still going to be playing to our win condition, so do be careful.

I can take this as either a town-based statement or a scum-based one. Not sure what to make of it. But...

Nachomamma8, Angry Scientist, Neuky

1) What’s your favorite role and why?

2) Why is Stels the scum?
3) Do you think you’re going to be lynched today? Why or why not?

...Correct me if I'm wrong, but where did any of those three accuse stels of being scum?
And that last question.. I don't know what stance that could be taken from either.

FoS: Ty

---

Zomg hi.

I am a full on newbie... never played a game before, but I did plenty of reading while waiting for my account to be activated.

Hooray!

Does it work like this?

VOTE: Stels

<.<

>.>

Your first two posts come off as a bit too innocent. Like, you're trying to not attract too much attention to yourself during the RVS. I won't and cannot hold that you placed a vote during then against you, but I am holding you to only placing a vote after an SE explains the vote-tag, without any given reason otherwise

FoS: Workdawg

I suppose I'm playing right in to your suggestion that scum will try and use your table against you, but maybe that's your plan all along.

This is my first game, but it seems to me that a scum player would be a lot more successful if they had a gameplan going in to the game; where that really wouldn't benefit a townie. Part of that game plan would be to consider what people will think of it, and to call out possible town reactions to it.

It just seems pretty self-serving to me to throw up the table and have your defense all laid out in advance in case someone calls you out on it.

*Yes, that is my plan, to use a table with which to hunt scum using the aid of. The table alone is meaningless, but paired with a case against someone it'd be enough for me to vote for them.
A lesson I learned from last game: get better at developing arguments. I am going to try to do so this game. This is how I am going to go about it. My only "plan" so far is to use it to keep track of scum-reads.
*I'd like to avoid repeating what happened my last newbie game and get caught with the only way to defend myself is to let myself be lynched and have my claim be verified.

[Mute]

@Nacho/Stels/Angry:

What is your input, if anything at all, to what's happened so far?

Also...
---

Nachomamma8

Ty, how does my answer to any of those questions allow you to get a gauge on my alignment?

There’s no one-size-fits-all answer, it depends on the unique response (or non-response as it may be) given by the player. Let’s take your response for example. What you just did is a deflection, meaning you ignored the question and instead attempted to talk about something else. Why do people deflect? Often times it means they are trying to hide something or they don’t feel comfortable with how they would have responded. Based on win conditions, the only people who have an incentive to be careful about how others perceive them are the scum who are trying to fit in with the town (it should be noted however that newbies will often times do this, as demonstrated by theplague42, however this point is irrelevant to Nachomamma8).

It’s important to differentiate Nachomamma8’s non-answering of the question from others who disliked my questioning (Angry Scientist, Stels). Both AS and Stels voiced annoyance over being questioned, but both did so regardless.

It is not a requirement to answer a questioned posited during the RVS. While highly suspicious, it is not as big a scum-tell as this post makes it out to be.

I seriously hate RQS, since they can basically be used against you, plus you're the only one who benefits from it, although it doesn't help you determine alignment in any way. I see no reason not to answer though so:

Anything you say can and will be used against you, RQS or not. My question to Stels is, why exactly do you care if something is used against you (unless you’re mafia, of course)?

The fact that it allows everyone the chance to write a solid post provides the game and its players with more information.

People saying more things gives others the opportunity to analyze and reason, implying that it actually helps everyone (except the scum), not just me.

It only doesn’t help determine alignment if you don’t want it to. Taking the time to analyze how people respond to the questions or being questioned generally can yield some interesting information which can be used to set a baseline or stored for later.

I would be interested to hear why you think a RVS random vote gleans more useful information than what I have done? It’s expected, it provides almost no information to other players other than who is bad at humor, and generally newbie mistakes render it pointless anyways. Your response would probably be “but Ty, it applies pressure!” Pressure can be applied without silly voting and because it’s so standard any hollow threats are immediately seen through.

However you’ll notice I didn’t say it’s completely worthless because it does have its uses.

For example, you’ll notice that Nachomamma8 voted Naben. This vote is intended to look like

s

he’s involved while actually doing little to further the game. Naben hasn’t confirmed and will most likely be replaced, meaning he isn’t a participant in the game. At first glance this may look like a standard lurker vote, however Neuky had actually confirmed into the game and also hadn’t posted. What would make more sense, voting for someone that has fallen off the face of the planet or voting someone who is in the game but hasn’t posted yet?

As it stands, Nachomamma8 has posted in a manner that raises alarm bells over being suspicious and possibly having ulterior motives, and has not helped the town in anyway whatsoever in her post (besides an unrelated technical issue) with her vote or question. My question to Nachomamma8 would be is there a reason I shouldn’t push for your lynch today based on the various reasons listed above?

I do not like this post.
Firstly, it's long. Needlessly long.
Second, this is in relation to the first segment of bolded text. The entire thing (the bolded portion) is hypocritical. Any information that the town has, the scum has as well. Specifically, the underlined text. This can be used by scum to find people to eliminate during the night to be able to further spread confusion and cause mislynches.
And you're right, questioning does reveal a great deal of information, both of the ones being asked and the ones asking the questions.


Thirdly, in relation to the second bolded portion of the quote:

I briefly spoke about lurking in the above part of my post however I should inform you all that

I policy lynch lurkers. If you don’t have a reason for not posting for extended periods of time I will ruthlessly advocate for your lynch faster than you can say I-didn’t-realize-lurking-is-anti-town-play.

Contradiction, thy name is Ty. While I understand you want a person to defend themselves, you've applied no pressure on Naben to even warrant putting pressure on Nacho for doing that.

Vote: Ty

[Mute]

EBWOP:
When I say "I don't like this post," I mean that the entire post overall, not just the bits I used.

[Mute]

@Mute: Can I have the details of the game that you played with Nacho? The mod name specifically interests me. I just want to prove that 1 part of your table wrong. Although this has been said already, all the mods, choose the roles of people at random.
Also, finding you a bit scummy, since you refer to me and Workdawg towards something you're answering, yet I didn't quite ask. Plus you keep referring to the more experienced players more often. We're not the only ones here.

One last thing:

Guilty until proven innocent.

This basically means that everyone here is scum, even you. You can't prove anything until a flip occurs, or pretty much late game, when someone slips and their gamble crumbles. I got lynched for this in my first newbie game here.

VOTE: Ty

Erm... Details as in..?
The game is linked in my sig, so if you'd like to read it by all means. the mod was RedCoyote.

And yes, I am aware. That still holds true in that everyone has every reason up until a flip to be suspicious of everyone. I acknowledge people will be suspicious of me as is this game, as I am of everyone.
In particular now..

After reading, and rereading everything posted about Ty up until now, I'm finding him to be pretty suspicious too. Mute and his table still rub me the wrong way, but in the interest moving things along I'm throwing down the hammer.

VOTE: Ty

Wow dude.
This is the single scummiest thing I've seen from you, so as for your question about where you lie, this post gives me nothing but a scum-vibe.
You say a table which holds no threat to town-aligned scares you, you proceed to hammer a person without giving them a chance to defend themselves (scum opportunistic bussing?), and give no reasons

why

you feel he's suspicious.

EDIT::

EBWOP: I suppose hopping on the bandwagon with the hammer looks scummy. My reasoning is that both his posts have been long on words, but short on anything helpful. There's a lot of junk in there and it seems to me like he's trying to avoid being a lurker, but also avoid suspicion by diverting to Nacho and Stels, the two other experienced players...

is he trying to get them lynched so he can take advantage of all of us poor newbies?!?!?

It looks scummy because it

is

scummy.

[Mute]

@Mute from Preview

As far as throwing down the hammer... I guess I'm a little bit anxious since it's my first game. As you can tell, I'm pretty active online and the idea of waiting 2 weeks to learn any concrete information as craziness to me. If I set myself up as a target for Day2, then I guess we'll see what happens.

To be fair I was posting a response to Stels when you and nacho ninja'd in. =P
Now then on topic:
I understand being anxious and wanting the game to progress. It would do so on it's own. Being in a rush like that is not helpful. Frankly, I feel that you are scum and were bussing your partner. If Ty turns up mafia that suspicion will be furthered by me. If Ty flips town you will still look scummy for being an eager-beaver.

While I share your level of activity more or less, and the mindset of "waiting 2 weeks to learn any concrete information," (which, first off, only a flip will give concrete info, everything else is speculation, hunches, educated guesses, and so on) that's no excuse.

EDIT::
(yay for previews.)

@Angry/plague

(whichever one said something about playing with people who can't count): I have never lied that I am bad at math.
If Ty is at L-1, then he better get in to address the situation.
And given that it is still L-1,

HoS: Workdawg

. Until Ty can give answers to the things I've posed to him regarding suspicions I have of him my vote stays. I still feel that Ty and dawg being scum is a likelihood based on what's happened.

Now then can we

please

stop having people ninja inbetween posts?

[Mute]

Good catch, Angry Scientist.

DAG NABIT WHAT'D I SAY ABOUT NINJAS?!

At this moment,

I'm inclined to think Workdawg is town. Most scum quickhammers are votes that aren't explained very well, and when confronted, they end up giving an "I didn't see the votecount" excuse, instead of announcing that they're throwing down the hammer.

That being said, I am not ready in any case for the day to end, so I'd recommend that no one else try to quickhammer.

There is one thing that bothers me about this entire scenario, and it's below:

EBWOP: I suppose hopping on the bandwagon with the hammer looks scummy. My reasoning is that both his posts have been long on words, but short on anything helpful. There's a lot of junk in there and it seems to me like he's trying to avoid being a lurker, but also avoid suspicion by diverting to Nacho and Stels, the two other experienced players... is he trying to get them lynched so he can take advantage of all of us poor newbies?!?!?

I don't like that he realizes that the hammer looks scummy after the fact. It seems he's slightly regretting the hammer, but not because he thought of the chance that Ty might be town, but instead because the scenario might make him look scummy.

Uhm... Nacho these two bolded points seem, to me, to contradict one another.
His vote/potential hammer wasn't well explained at all, just "ive re-read and he's suspicious now to me so im placing the hammer."

---
EDIT::

Mute, why do you think Workdawg would try to hammer his scumbuddy?

Bad newbie-scum play.

---
EDIT::
got dangded post ninjasss... *grr grr angry-face shake-fist*

Preview edit @tp42:

I would hardly call that a challenge, at the time I thought it was twilight and there was nothing I could do about it then. I agree that it looks pretty bad, a rookie mistake of epic proportions.

If the wagon comes for me, the I deserve it and there's nothing I can do to stop it.

No. This thing right here you're doing? Stop that. I only say this because this is ultimately what got me lynched my last game, I gave up and let myself get lynched without giving myself the chance to form an argument of defense.
I don't care right this specific moment if I'm breaking rank and saying something an SE/IC would say but NEVER surrender. The instant you do you paint a target a large as the moon on yourself from all sides. Town can lynch you, scum can manipulate/implicate you, whatever.

@Mute:

I'm confused about how trying (and failing miserably) hammer Ty makes you think him AND I are scum. I certainly understand that I painted a big target on myself with my haste,

but what would the point of drawing attention to either of us if we were in it together? It seems imminent that either one of us will be lynched now, and certainly that's not good if we are in it together.

Also, can you elaborate on what a "flip" is?

A flip: when a person's role is revealed by the game mod through either a lynch or a night kill.
And as for the bolded, see my response to Nacho.

[Mute]

@Stels: Sorry. I don't find a reason to have much of anything in a sig here... quotes from other people? Nah, I'll just use it to keep track of past games. Though I question how exactly it was so hard to find... "Completed Games" was in bold, and the entire thing is right aligned, and there's that thin bar that separates post content from user signature... Just pointing that out.

Now we go back to Ty again.

---

Mute

I do not like this post.
Firstly, it's long. Needlessly long.
Second, this is in relation to the first segment of bolded text. The entire thing (the bolded portion) is hypocritical. Any information that the town has, the scum has as well. Specifically, the underlined text. This can be used by scum to find people to eliminate during the night to be able to further spread confusion and cause mislynches.
And you're right, questioning does reveal a great deal of information, both of the ones being asked and the ones asking the questions.

First, I don’t like your post. It’s short, needlessly short.

Let's start with this. There is never a post that can be considered "needlessly short." There's too long which gives plenty of room for ambiguity. Second, the best posts I feel are the ones that are short, sweet, and to the point. The acronym K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid!) is an acronym I apply to my daily life.

See, I can post useless information too!

...wait, am I being attacked with this? Is the information I'm using against you useless, really? To you, perhaps, but to others? I am not at all liking the passive-aggressive and high-and-mighty tone in your posts thus far in-game. Whether or not it's a scum-tell depends on context but I personally hate people who act this way unjustifiably.

Anyways, we’re finally getting to some of the good stuff. This is a continuation of Workdawg’s paragraph from above, and it’s important that everyone read this. Mute, your train of thought in regards to your second statement is very misguided. INFORMATION HELPS THE TOWN. Now repeat that to yourself one hundred times.

I don't like condescension. Not by

anyone

.
I know that, and it's common sense.

It’s fairly obvious the scum will see what we see, however the pros in this situation FAR outweigh any negatives. Large amounts of posting benefit the town in two very important ways. First, discussions and analyzing posts are almost all that the town has to go off when reaching a consensus on who to lynch, so would you agree it’s important that the town is as well informed as possible before making that decision? Secondly, the more people talk the easier it is to separate the scum from the townsfolk for scumhunting purposes. The scum are forced to either 1) talk more, which increases the chances of slip-ups and scumtells or 2) go into lurk mode, which becomes extremely noticeable.

To summarize, POST AS MUCH AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN and give the town (who should be scumhunting) a much, much needed advantage. Also, I thank you greatly for your approval of my questioning, as Nachomamma8 doesn’t seem to be as big of a fan of them as you are.

Then may I advocate you practice what you preach please? As it stands, you've tunneled on Nacho for his refusal to answer your questions. I gave the merit that asking questions does reveal info, but maybe you misinterpreted it.
Scum can ask questions as much as town to gauge out potential threats. So far, from the questions you've posed, you've not done, for what I feel to be, an adequate level of scum hunting.

---
Now, to tear a bit into your latest post here

Stels

@Ty: Main concern about RQS is that it can be used against you. Say, you answer a question, like: "Do you support Lynch All Liars?" and someone answers yes, yet later in the game, someone lies but that person will not support his lynch for certain reasons, such as believing his claim. Yes, he has contradicted what he answered at the beginning of the game, but he has his reasons. Scum-tell? Not really. I didn't say I hated your RQS specifically, I still answered right? I just said that I hate them in general since the questions are pretty random as well as only one person benefiting from it. And please don't tell me, "you all can go ahead and do RQS yourselves" because that's just upright stupid. Oh and on the topic that it helps everyone, it doesn't. As I have said before, it only benefits you, since only you know the logic behind that question, no matter how random it can be.

RQS can be used against you? You mean to say that something you post can later be used against you? Instead of making some snappy sarcastic comment I’ll just say that that it’s a bonus for the town. Unless they are as dense as your example makes them out to be, the town should be able to take circumstance into consideration and allow it precedence over a question designed to get the game moving. At least I really hope so.

You're right in that regard. Scum would want to ignore the context of RVS/RQS and push for a mislynch. But to say the town would be too dense to let that happen is a logical error as well, as quite frankly IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

No, I’m not the only person that benefits. I believe I pointed out that the entire town benefits from the RQS due to the posting it creates. You are tunneling your vision in regards to how the questions are important. Frankly, I find the (non)responses to be most telling. You don’t need me brain to analyze how someone responded and the resulting discussion that takes place?

In fact, allow me to let you in on a dirty little secret. Most of those questions have no logic at all and I don’t have an ulterior motive.

Surprising as it is, we’re on the same playing field.

Then why are you coming off as using a weak argument? Why say they hold no long-term impact here, when you say the exact opposite earlier on?
And if these questions have "no logic at all," or "an ulterior motive," then why did you ask them then?

I briefly touched on why RQS is generally better than RVS in my previous post and I’m more than willing to discuss this theory with you, however it seems my time is better used elsewhere in the current state of things.

What happened to you just there? How is keeping information a secret something saved for someone better? How is this pro-town play?
Why does this directly contradict you when you said that

INFORMATION HELPS THE TOWN. Now repeat that to yourself one hundred times.

---

@Ty again: So, provide me with a reason why I'm scum, maybe I'll believe you. Or correct you with a whip. Plus, if I am scum according to you, why aren't you voting me?

I don’t think you’re the scum at all.

If you’ve read my posts you’ll notice I have other suspects. As to why I’m not voting, I don’t toss my vote around like candy. I vote when I feel I have the right person, it helps avoid possible quicklynches, you know, like the one that almost happened right now.

The bolded, I am going to rail on here. On ISO:#0, you flat out ask Angry, Nacho, and Neuky "2) Why is Stels the scum?"
Erm...
So, you accuse Stels of being scum, then deny you ever did when confronted about it? This is a scum-move by my count.

---
In summation I find Ty would be the best candidate for a first lynch, and as such am keeping my vote on him.
I apologize for the wall of text here. I tried to my best to stay on topic, and keep to my point.

[Mute]

OK - got some catching up on the whole almost hammer wagon thang to do - but in the meantime...

@Mute
I wanted to check on something.

the list is a tool, yes, that I intend to post updates with it when I feel the need arises, in particular at the start of days.

I'd like to avoid repeating what happened my last newbie game and get caught with the only way to defend myself is to let myself be lynched and have my claim be verified.

Ok regarding the above, I'm reading this as the table will be something town can look at if you die at some stage in the game. It's hardly going to defend you, but it would be a kind of inheritance to town of your thoughts before you died.

My point is you are assuming this would be a lynch, you've even said you'll post it in the morning (not twilight), and not assumed there's a chance you'd get killed at night. Why not?

(taking a break from responding to my other game. yay procrastination.)

There's as much a likelihood as me getting killed at night as there is for anyone.
Yeah I guess it can serve as a "if I'm dead keep an eye on X, Y, and Z," but then that'd be obscuring the likelihood that A, B, or C can be scum as well. That's why I will post it at the start of the day, to not let that happen. If you see an argument of mine and feel it makes sense, fine, but try to build an argument of your own. Don't let my suspicions cloud your own.

That help clarify anything for you?

[Mute]

Mute

We went at it over the table for a while. He's responded decently, but I guess I get a funky vibe off how he claims to be playing the game (scum until proven town) and the table in general. I honestly still can't see how the table benefits anyone but scum... ESPECIALLY when everyone starts out as scum in the table. If the idea of scumhunting is to press specific people until you find someone who is scum, then that table seems quite backwards to me. You press them and their number goes down until you decide they are town. If you press them and just get a bunch of null reads, then they are still going to be scum. Or do you consider a null read to be in town favor based on the chances of them being town > being scum.

Another issue I have with the table, and I've expressed it before, is that it seems to just add a bunch of clutter to the thread rather than just saying "I think x and y are scummy, and here is why" If you post the table, I feel like you'd need to post a reason for every single persons standing in the table. I think it would be too easy to manipulate the table to scum advantage.

Lastly, you never told me what my rating is in your table after the events of last night :p

I'll address you points in quick.
>I posted a list of what i felt each number to be. It's the post immediately after I first posted the list. This is pertaining to what numbers I give a person.
>If I post just the person's standing on the table, without saying anything else, I feel I don't have to explain myself. If I am questioned why X is #, I'll respond, as will I do if I present a case to justify X's # on it.
Hopefully we can move past this concern about the table. It does nothing but bog down on scum-hunting.
>As of now the results you see on the table at present are what they are now. After re-thinking, I feel that you were honest in you making a mistake, but I don't discredit the chance of you being scum either. I feel it is less likely in hindsight, but I don't dismiss it.

@Mod: Are we going to look for a replacement for Naben's slot? I feel that it's time to do so.

Also as for a Ty/Nacho scumteam, unlikely. This is my opinion, and for now it is not backed by fact but with gut. Either or has a chance of being scum, but both? not likely. /two cents.

[Mute]

Naben has confirmed! Yes, that's right, nobody flaked in the confirmation stage!

asano234 replaces Angry Scientist starting immediately. Please welcome them!

Oh joy!

@Naben: Please get caught up and give us your take on the game thus far.

I know 4 pages is a lot to go through for some, and I assume real life interferences are what caused your delay?

[Mute]

@Workdawg

More suspicious behavior. Why would they NK you? The only way I could see that happening is 1. you did actually hammer, and 2. Ty was scum. Unless you were ultra-early bussing your partner. If a player gets enough suspicion, he's probably going to be left alive as a scapegoat. Or left alive to create WIFOM confusion.

I felt like a target because I stirred up a lot of crap and it seems like that would make me an easy target, but you make a good point that leaving me out there as a scapegoat is also a likely play. I guess I feel better about that, lol.

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

I would rather have an IC play more teacher than player than the other way around. Why would anyone believe he is scum if he is tossing out good thoughts, asking questions, and defending himself well? Isn't that what town is supposed to do?

And why is nacho voting ty suspicious? It was still RVS, so any and every possible scumtell is worthy of suspicion, considering there isn't much else to go on. How can you accuse Ty of tunneling on Nacho? In post 77, you comment on every player in the game, excluding yourself of course. Yet you only post real evidence/quotes for the argument against me and Nacho. The difference is that you are agreeing (?) with me. I'm not sure what word to use, but your conclusion is that my response was not scummy. Your attack on Nacho was by far the longest out of any of them. Then you throw out the possibility of Ty/Nacho scumteam. The point that I agree with on that is the "suspicion, but no vote" on Ty's part towards Nacho. The unvote by Nacho isn't suspicious at all by itself. He already gave a perfectly good reason for it, avoiding "crazed newbies" such as yourself. However, I will again point out the lack of emotion on Nacho's part. The "if it were a normal game" logic seems silly. There are ways to express your anger without scaring people off. But I think this points to Nacho as scum, while not really saying anything about Ty. Hopefully this is clear, as I'm just going by order that I remember.

That's true, but he explicitly said he was going to do whatever it takes to win. If he REALLY thought Ty was scum, then it seems like the right move would have been to stick to his guns on that. If he's going the IC route and trying to prolong day one as he says, then that's fine. Maybe there's just not enough evidence against Ty yet and his vote was simply to stir the pot and try to get a reaction out of Ty. I can't comment on his intent, just my analysis of it. I didn't really intend for that to be an attack on Nacho. The first line of my statement is how I feel about him... his actions surrounding Ty have me suspicious and I stated that suspicion.

(1)Am I supposed to keep my crazy thoughts to myself and then start yelling I KNEW IT when it happens, or throw them out there and let people shoot holes in them?

You've said you agree with parts of it (at least the scumminess of some of Nacho's actions), so obviously I'm not completely off my rocker.

(2)Also, am I supposed to analyze myself?

I thought that was everyone else's job. I guess if you want that, here it is.

Workdawg

Silly newb making a ton of mistakes,

(3)but he is more town than the mayor of townsvilleland

..

@Neuky

I think aggression is more of a towntell than a scumtell in a newbie games. SEs and ICs are supposed to play at their best, as that would teach us newbies more than if they intentionally played badly, which would probably be very difficult to do anyways.

(4)Aside from that, I agree with the newb-scum possibility (bad word, but I can't think of the one I want to use; starts with a "c"...) and the dawg/stels team idea.

He makes a lukewarm comment about Stel's encouragement, which pales in comparison to the amount of advice Ty has given (his towniness/scuminess is irrelevant for this). The fact that you took the time to post out the wagon is really pro-town and just plain helpful IMO.

Preview edit: Yet another disturbing lack of emotion.

(5)AFAIK newb-town are more likely to freak out, while newb-scum are more likely to just sit there.

Also, as I was reading over my post (finally previewing to avoid errors:)), I had a thought about the tunneling on Nacho. By this point, Workdawg seems to have more suspicion on Nacho than Ty, judging by his summary post above. Then why keep your vote on Ty instead of Nacho?

(6)As far as the "dawg/stels" team idea, that's an interesting suggestion I suppose. What was the great and wonderful plan? Pick the first person to get two votes and attempt to wagon them, and then F up the vote count (or I suppose run it up to 4 and then hope someone else hammers)?

Didn't Nacho say that the usual scum hammer move is to pretend you didn't realize it and then try to act innocent when you get caught laying down the hammer?

(7)IIRC, Scum can only communicate at night (and apparently during confirmation according to the rules)

so it's not like we would have had time to talk about who we want to target. My comments about Stels are simply because he specifically encouraged me to keep going after most everyone turned on me.

@Workdawg: If a wagon comes onto, there is always something that you can do to redeem yourself or at least be helpful to town by scumhunting even if you are lynched. Don't. Give. Up.
Just to point out something: Don't be concerned with looks, just don't bother with it. The only thing I can see in that is more of a scum-tell than a town-tell, since scum have more reason for wanting to look good than town. Sure you don't want to be lynched for looking scummy, but trying to appear to be something you are not, isn't helpful at all. Just be yourself and do what you got to do. I think I got lynched as that being part of the reason in my first Newbie Game as well.

I would call that encouragement. While certainly Ty has provided useful help, he hasn't really provided encouragement like that. Ty still hasn't even really posted a response to what happened yet. He acknowledged reading it, but not there was no response.

About the second part here:
First Neuky gets on my case about showing emotion in my posts, and now you get on my case about not doing so. What do you guys want from me? lol

...oh wow...
Yeah, I'll explain myself in a second, but for now:

Unvote; Vote: Workdawg

You're trying really hard, too hard in fact, to come off as town to make up from your mistaken attempt at a quick-hammer earlier.

First bolded segment: Yes, that is what you're supposed to do, throw your ideas out to let people shoot holes in them. If your logic/reasoning is flawed it hurts town to both keep it secret, and to keep that flawed logic in the game.
Second and third bolded segments: You're really trying hard to come off as newb-town, which frankly makes me see you as newb-scum slipping up.
Fourth bolded segment: Did you just acknowledge/oust yourself as scum by saying you can agree to the likelihood of a scum-team of you and stels?
Fifth bolded part: Pure speculation on your part, which I find misleading to the town.
*Worthy of note: the 4th and 5th bolded segments are all within his self-analysis.
Sixth and Seventh bolded segments: both are scum-slips, with the 7th being the most severe. There is nothing in the rules what so ever about scum being able to talk during the confirmation phase. Nothing at all. You'd only be able to know this if you were scum.

And for the sake of ease, I've numbered each bolded segment.
Everyone, let's lynch this scum.

[Mute]

To prove my point on bolded segment #7, this is the rule regarding posting restrictions.

2. Unless it is explicitly stated in your role PM that you can do so, do not communicate with anyone outside this thread. Even then, only communicate when your role PM states you can.

[Mute]

Sorry for triple posting but I forgot to and wanted to make sure my math was right.

Workdawg is now, with my vote, at L-2

.

[Mute]

Actually, I just realized I'm an idiot. Mute, do you realize that points 4 and 5 are

my

words? This does throw bad light on the rest of the argument, but number 7 is pure gold. I will point out the possibility of Mute bussing his partner. I think it's extremely unlikely, but it's a thought. Barring the two screwed up points, the whole process seems too good to be a scum bus.

Actually I did miss that 4 and 5 were within a quote made by you. I saw that he started to give an analysis on himself, by bolding his name, and missed that he quoted you. I tunneled in on all the scum-slips he made, and hadn't noticed.

If for nothing else, #7 is the single greatest scum-tell, slip, and exposure that he's made. The rushed mis-hammer is a medium scum-tell given the cover of a newbie mistake, but that argument was torn down to a small-level tell by his "Reading the theory and participating in practice are two different things" comment.

If he flips scum, I anticipate dying tonight.

[Mute]

@Dawg: That is still no excuse. You state that scum can post during confirmation, via the rules. That was not found in the rules, it was found in the sample role PM's. You've still slipped up and stated that it was in the rules that you may talk to your scum partner during the confirmation stage. You are without a doubt in my mind scum and are now trying to cover up your mistake in whatever way possible.

[Mute]

Okay...
Taken a while to cool off.
When I tunnel on someone, I do get heated.

@Mute: Your last post was scummy as hell. You're just trying too damn hard to get Workdawg onto the noose.

@Drench: Can we get a votecount? Thanks~

In hindsight, yes it is. I still have no doubt that dawg is scum. I dismissed his accidental near-hammer as a small newbie slip-up with a chance of being a scum-slip. His post which I drilled was a huge alarm for me to find him scummy enough to take my vote off of Ty, my then highest scum-suspect, to him.

also seconding the vote count request.

Preview edit: Mute, I think "rules" applies to all of Drench's starting posts. The roles are available to everyone in this and other open-type games, so it's info known to everyone. If you feel the need, put out a request to the possible cop to investigate him. The cop may or may not listen, but it's better than accusing him of being scum when most of your argument fell through the floorboards.

Of the possible set-ups in this game, only half have a chance to have a cop. It'd be a safe bet to ask that, but I won't. If someone is a PR the

last

thing they need to do is draw attention to themselves.
And if I were to do that, that'd be scummy of me.
How? How would I get the info from the cop if I asked for them if they were here to investigate dawg? (to digress, what's to even say if there is a cop this game, they'd listen to me and not their gut on whom to check? :eyebrow:) If I say that I'd like to hear the cop's results, that's role-fishing, a scum move. If I ask a cop to investigate dawg, that's scummy as well for trying to draw out the cop and put them in danger.
Rule of thumb from my first game here as doc: power roles are the greatest asset to a town. In one of the available F11 set-ups, the town has NO PR's whatsoever.

There is no town-motivation to want to seek a PR this early on in the game. I know you meant good from it by mentioning it, but it's not a good move.


---

@Mute

Do you really want to argue the semantics of the rules vs the sample role PMs, which immediately follow the rules? I'm obviously no expert, but splitting hairs in something so irrelevant just to try and reinforce your failed accusation on me seems pretty scumming in itself.

UNVOTE: Ty

VOTE: Mute

and

As far as my vote for Mute, he was my first vote... I changed from him in my anxious "crackmonkey" attempt to hammer Ty. After looking at the rest of his posts since then, I still feel like he's scum, and the evidence has only been mounting against him as far as I'm concerned.

@Mute

You think I'm super scum now, so what's my number? This is the third time I've asked you and you've never given it to me. The first time, I'll assume you didn't notice me ask.

---
So what's the story, am I the scummiest of the scum, or am I still on par with every else (except Nacho).

I fail to see the irrelevance, so please enlighten me to it.
You said that it is within the rules that scum may contact one another during the night and confirmation stages. I concede you were right in that that is stated within the sample role-PM's. However that does not change I feel you are the scummiest person so far.

As for your rating? Remember when I said both that tunneling on the table, itself a neutral thing as both town and scum can and have used it across this site would bog down on scum hunting, and that "The only reason I can ever see anyone ever asking where they stand to me is if I am accusing them of being scum, using the number I give them as an augment to counter my argument, and do w/e else they would plan to do"?

If you truly wish to see where you fall onto my list so bad:
During my tunnel on you, I rated you a 90, and you were above everyone by a good margin.
Now? 79. Remember that I am not going to post it regularly, nor even give any warning as to when people go up or down it. The points are given by gut feeling, and corrected by evidence used in the game. My gut alone would give you an 84, just in case you're curious.

Am I aware of how scummy this is? Yes. I'm also aware of how this can potentially be used to either A) paint me to be scum by actions alone, or B) to give scum ammunition to push for me to be lynched.

As to whom I feel is dawg's partner? No clue as of yet.

[Mute]

Specifically on your above comments

This seems just like another case of you claiming the scum will try and use it against you. Why do you keep using that as your defense? If the only thing the table is doing for you is giving scum something to use against you, then why did you/are you using it.

Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town.

The more discussion there is about this, the more it just seems to me that all you've done is try and tell people what they want to hear about the table.

Wrong, I tell whomever asks what purpose it serves, and have done nothing but. So far, only you and neuky have been the most vocal against it, and nearly everyone else feels it's either insignificant or a null-tell. If you feel nothing but a contempt for it, feel that I am scum for using a table to give a numerical rating of the players, constantly use it as a way to undermine any shot of scum-hunting, say that your case against me is because I have a bad case against you, and have placed what I feel is an OMGUS vote on me, that with everything else continually gives me an impression that you're scum.

Why do I keep using it as my defense? Town-players will dismiss a needless table which is majorly opinion-driven as needless fluff and rely on solid evidence; scum players will use whatever arguments they can to push to get the town lynched.

"Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town."
Maybe you can outline for me what exactly the table has done that is anti-town so far? That'd help.

Quite frankly, I am tired of having it brought up. I have yet to say in my argument against you "you have a score of # on my table, so I feel you're scum," I've only used your posts this game. I held off giving you your score for that fact. It is not the basis of my argument, nor will it be, as I said when I first posted the table this game.
Specifically:

If you do not like where you fall on my grid, remember that A) this is a grid I am using for MYSELF, and this does not and should not influence anyone; if you feel someone is scum vote for them on the basis of

your

own reads, and B) I feel your play is worthy of either a high or a low score.

This is in all honesty an experiment on my part on using a number-based system to keep track of scum suspicions. I do not expect it to be perfect and the amounts will fluctuate with my whim.

I will not rely on it alone to lynch anyone I feel is scum, merely as a way to keep track and augment my arguments and such.

If at all you'd like to see where you fall at any time, just ask.

That I have seen fit to give you that number based on your play is why I am so set on you being scum.

[Mute]

This is just off the top of my head, but, it took Naben how long to confirm, and he's yet to even post a "Hi guys sorry I was so slow," or anything?
I don't wanna sound like I'm sidestepping the Dawg-Plague-Me back and forth, but where is the guy?

[Mute]

So, I'm scum because you gave me a number... isn't it supposed to work the other way around? You find enough evidence against someone that the number climbs high enough that you call them scum. I guess I'll have to wait and see what the evidence is.

Best argument I've seen against the table so far. The initial sentence is fuzzy, but the second half is great.

Workdawg, it seems like your first sentence isn't really coinciding with the second part. I would say this is more an issue of writing your summary before your details, rather than inconsistency.

Anyways, I would say that Mute's reasoning is more "you give me a huge number, which implies I'm scum, which means I deserve a high number." (I'm saying this from workdawg's POV) Mute's using circular logic to try to prove his point.

It is a flaw in my writing style, but yeah.

The second sentence I was simply trying to explain how I feel it should work, rather than what the first sentence explains as how Mute made it sound like it works. I guess to say it better would be something like...

"So, I'm scum because you game me a number, isn't it supposed to work the other way around? Shouldn't you have to find enough evidence to justify the number getting high enough to call someone scum?"

*sigh*

If you do not like where you fall on my grid, remember that

A) this is a grid I am using for MYSELF, and this does not and should not influence anyone; if you feel someone is scum vote for them on the basis of

your

own reads, and

B) I feel your play is worthy of either a high or a low score.

This is in all honesty an experiment on my part on using a number-based system to keep track of scum suspicions. I do not expect it to be perfect

and the amounts will fluctuate with my whim. I will not rely on it alone to lynch anyone I feel is scum, merely as a way to keep track and augment my arguments and such. If at all you'd like to see where you fall at any time, just ask.

Please read the bold, as that IS what the case is. I feel that from X's posts that they deserve a score of #. Because I feel from their posts that they deserve #, I'll look for cases to build against them.

And please, this is how it was

originally intended to be.

Hell, I even admit that it will not be perfect, and it will be flawed, hence why I said that and that it's an experiment for me.

I'll respond to this page's posts in my next post, but reading this just made me literally .
Also, I'd like to hear more from

Stels

woops, V/LA; Nacho;

Naben

, which reminds me, even though it's not that 48 hour mark he's skirted this entire game so far without a post at all,

@Mod: Request a prob for Naben

; Ty; Neuky; and I'll let Angry's sub get a chance to read the thread thoroughly. It feels like the three of us (dawg, plague, and myself) have taken most of the steam currently.

[Mute]

Actually Neuky, I only want a prob for Naben. Everyone else in that list is just a "what's on your mind?" thing.
Figured by only bolding the request and naben's name, and using semi-colons instead of commas, it'd not confuse anyone. =x

[Mute]

@plague
I didn't ask for a prod (why did I say prob in the last post? >_>) for anyone but Naben. That the order of people after that is nitpicking. But since you do bring it up, the limit for prods/replacements is 3 days.

Nacho should be prodded as well if he gets too inactive.

PREVIEW'D he's going to be V/LA til tomorrow more than likely if I'm reading that right. But my focus is on Naben because he's flat-out done nothing this game.
Here, look at the timeline of the game so far

Sunday the 16th- thread made.
Monday the 17th- game is opened.
Wednesday the 19th- naben finally confirms.
Friday the 21st- still nothing.

A full five days. At this point I'd say screw the prod and just replace him. He confirmed on a wednesday, so he must've been online to do so. He couldn't pop in to just make a short post explaining why he isn't here?

I'd post regarding your post but I just had a rough night, and this was typed up before I left. I'll post something tomorrow.

[Mute]

Okay, finally not busy with other video games/women/home BS to be able to post...

Warning, possible Wall of Text incoming

And for starters I see Stels placed a vote on me. *shrug* If my math's right that puts me now at L-2.

FoS: Stels

for not announcing this.
---
I don't feel much like formatting this so I'll just quote the things I am going to address and by whom they are said.

Ok in the first part of this post, I looked at Mute (my biggest suspect) ISO, so I may be backtracking a lot.

That said i am sure that this table is useful to you and maybe it has been sucessful in the past but it just feels too unscientific for my liking and a bit random to say the least. Out of curiousity i would be interested where i fall on the table being a newbie and therefore an unknown quantity.

Actually, according to Mute, this is his first time using it.

This is in all honesty an experiment on my part on using a number-based system to keep track of scum suspicions.

I do not expect it to be perfect and the amounts will fluctuate with my whim. I will not rely on it alone to lynch anyone I feel is scum, merely as a way to keep track and augment my arguments and such. If at all you'd like to see where you fall at any time, just ask.

As I'm looking back, the bolded part seems suspicious. He seems to be defending the table before any comments were made about it. Earlier in the same post:

Everyone starts out at 60, because it is a nice enough a number to prove my point in that

I have as much reason to think of everyone as scum as much as they are town.

This is to, for me, keep track of how everyone acts, and the scores are rather arbitrary.

Now look at his previous post:

I'm going to play with the mindset of "

scum with medium probability until highly suspected/proven town.

"

Bolded hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy. I have every reason to play as if everyone is scum, and am doing so, and only by their play will I feel whether it's a town vibe or a scum vibe I'm picking up from them. e.g. a person posts and I get serious town-vibes from them, then I feel they're more likely than not town, but I won't discredit that they could be scum who are presenting themselves to be town very well.

Mute:

About your table... Sure, it's nice to keep the track of everyone, but what's the reason of revealing that table to us? If you'll be posting the entire table regularly, you're pretty much giving your neutral and town reads all the time, and that helps scum pick their targets at night.

The point of the table was more to get a concrete view of my stance out there. To say "oh yeah, I'm gonna play as everyone is more likely scum than town and gameplay will prove innocence" is nice and all, but it can easily be twisted by scum to be used for whatever bussing/WIFOM reasons against me later on.

Mute seems to be very concerned about how the scum will specifically target him.

If the scum were to actually consistently attack him for bad reasons, wouldn't they get lynched?

As I've argued before, good scum will use logical arguments to get someone lynched. If the table gets attacked, then it's probably for good reason.

Look at my first game, and that will back up this next statement: I am good at out-WIFOMing the scum. This is how I have always played here, and have been playing off-site. Yes I will worry about what scum will think, so as to find them better. D1 is terrible for it because we rely solely on a person's posts to decide if they're scum or not. It's when an NK is made that the real battle of wits begins. This is the part I look forward to.

and about the bold: not if they can convince town that X is more scummy than themselves.
Which ties into:

The Ol' Wall-O-Text

Thank you for the warning at least.

---

Mute

ISO #5, creates table.
One part I don't like about the table is that

B) I feel your play is worthy of either a high or a low score.

I just don't like what he said here.

So, instead of just scum-hunting and putting his findings into that table, he also lets our playing-style get in the way

... I just don't like that. Or would you like to clear this misunderstanding?

So... wait, lemme see if I have this right now: both you and Dawg are operating with the thought that play-style isn't the things a person posts in the game? See, to me, play-style is a persons posting/posts and how they are interpreted by others. So, with the mindset I'm using, which is that, how is my using a person's style of play

not

scum hunting?
So, what of the whole ordeal isn't clear yet? I've said what I feel is enough about the table.

ISO #7 addresses that there is a flaw in the table, says that he will fix that when someone thinks of something, so far, he has denied everything related to the table. Also just noticed that the table is pretty much useless after reading this post again. Why not just go about and use the good old

FoS

and

HoS

? Same thing, less work.

I have been using FoS/HoS this game. Several times in fact.

ISO # 12. Not much to say about this post, but until this point, all he has been doing is calling my name. Nothing wrong with that,

it just feels like you're trying to buddy up to me.

You say you were replying to something that I asked, which you did, yet you referred to him in the same post and talking about how his hammer felt scummy, which it did, yet in post #12 he refers to me yet again in reply to Workdawg, making an excuse for something that no one asked him, etc...

Pardon me a moment...

I would like to see where in ISO #12 I seem to be "buddying up" with you. I say your name

once

, only to tell Dawg I was answering a question you posed to me. Suddenly answering questions is "buddying up?" Trying to over-inflate a miniscule point and twisting it to suit your wants/intentions is highly scummy.
And before you say it, yes at that time I felt Ty was scummy. Right now though, you and dawg are my top suspects.

ISO #14: Responds to Ty. Generally, he is downright opposes Ty, well in fact, yet he yet again, mentions me, and even defends me. Thanks for that, but again, buddying up.

-sigh-
Ty outright in ISO #0 flat-out asks three people why you are "the scum." I have already confronted Ty about this, and though I haven't gotten anything back regarding it yet, I did find something from a post of Ty's, directed towards Neuky, that I thoroughly enjoy and will post later.

ISO #18: Only thing I can find here is him contradicting himself:

First bolded segment: Yes, that is what you're supposed to do, throw your ideas out to let people shoot holes in them. If your logic/reasoning is flawed it hurts town to both keep it secret, and to keep that flawed logic in the game.

with

Fifth bolded part: Pure speculation on your part, which I find misleading to the town.

Yes, point 5 was proven to be said by TP42, yet at the time he posted, he thought it was Workdawg who said that, which he was referring to, thus contradicting himself when he tried to build a case against WD.
Nitpicks Workdawg's "talking in confirmation is stated in the rules/sample role pm's". Believe strongly that Workdawg is scum, yet doesn't present a solid case on him as well as the badhammer on Ty being his only real evidence which at the time he didn't think was enough to warrant a vote. AKA, he doesn't have enough evidence as it stood from ISO #22.
ISO #23: Proceeds to give Workdawg his imaginary numbers. Sorry if I offend you by saying that.
ISO # 26 & 24: He says that he won't use the table to see someone as scum, simply to augment his current standing (26) yet before that he says that because of his number from his table, he is intent on Workdawg being scum (24); the number from that table is basically the only thing that is keeping his vote on him.
BTW, you said prob two times, not one. Just an FYI.

Scummy.

Sorry I saw you accuse me of knit-picking and not having a bad case, and my hypocrisy sensors went off which just further cements a Stels/Dawg team.
Only Dawg has been knit-picky about it. Plague raised some concerns and noted them, and everyone else has dismissed it as a null-tell.
Not having a bad case... from a single post out of many... Of which yes most of those points were bad, though I should let you know that I already addressed that those two posts were made by plague, and not Dawg.
Also no offense to be taken as technically all numbers are imaginary, but that's just semantics.
Also also thank you for pointing out I mis-said prod twice.


---
Breaking up my post to avoid eye-sore
---

[Mute]

Now then:
Stels votes for me on the grounds that I am knit-picking and am a hypocrite, when that is exactly what he is.
I feel that Stels has been more knit-picky than I am, and over the table I am using this game.

@Mute: I know how pro-town Nacho can be, but that is no reason at all to give him privileges and making him an exception. How are you certain that Nacho isn't as likely scum as us? He may be scum last game, what's stopping him from being scum again? If you had a different mod, which I'm sure you did, then he has the same chance to start out at 60? as any of us. I've been scum in the game before this as well, so why not start me out on 55 as well? Exactly.

and

@Mute: Can I have the details of the game that you played with Nacho? The mod name specifically interests me. I just want to prove that 1 part of your table wrong. Although this has been said already, all the mods, choose the roles of people at random.
Also, finding you a bit scummy, since you refer to me and Workdawg towards something you're answering, yet I didn't quite ask. Plus you keep referring to the more experienced players more often. We're not the only ones here.
One last thing:

Guilty until proven innocent.

This basically means that everyone here is scum, even you. You can't prove anything until a flip occurs, or pretty much late game, when someone slips and their gamble crumbles. I got lynched for this in my first newbie game here.

It's a number arbitrarily given by me. Why was it such a huge deal that my rating on someone was different from everyone else? What is the big deal when the numbers I give on the table don't amount to anything by themselves, are dictated by the reads and vibes I get from the players? What reason is there for you to have not just discarded it as needless fluff, what purpose do you have in bringing it up, what motivation could there be?
I speculate the same reason why Dawg is so knit-picky about it; finding an easy town-lynch so you two can proceed to spread confusion and win the game for yourselves as scum.

And I noticed that I am not alone in this assumption of a stels/dawg scum-team.
Neuky in ISO #6 makes that statement.
To save you a click, here is that post:

Just want to add - yes I'm thinking currently of a Dawg / Stels partnership

- and I've just seen Dawg's post 77 -

Stels

I get a townie vibe from him for his encouragement, but that could easily just be the SE trying to help me out.

Had to whoop when I saw this! "Yep Stels a townie, except if he flips scum, he could just have been helping me out as SE"...

I now feel that Dawg and Stels are scum this game. That Stels voted for Ty, followed by the failhammer by Dawg, Dawg shifts his focus to me. Now seemingly mimicking Dawg, Stels uses those same arguments of his reworded and votes for me, accusing me of scum. Stels states flat-out

@Neuky: The "trying to appear to be something you are not, isn't helpful at all". This is SE advice for not just dawg, but for everyone here (my advice isn't just for everyone to see that I'm supporting just one player, it's meant for everyone to look at).

Town wouldn't be concerned at appearing scummy, since they are town. That's the general gist of it. If he still cares about trying to appear town, I'll hop onto his wagon.

If I learned anything from my first newbie game, reluctance to suspect a person when others are already suspicious of a person for pretty solid reasons makes that first person scum. Stels says that if dawg is worried about appearing as town and continues to be so, he'll jump to his wagon.

Dawg's done that a great deal this entire game, and I'm not the only one to pick up on it.

This is what made me say that Dawg/Stels scum is a likelihood.

[Mute]

EBWOP:

@ Mod: vote count s'il vous plait?

If my math's right, both Dawg and I are at L-2, as it stands with Ty's and Stel's latest votes.

[Mute]

Also EBWOP:
post 155... substitute any instances of "bad case," or any variations of such, with "good case."

See this is why you should proofread thoroughly guys/gals. =|

[Mute]

EBWOP:

@ Mod: vote count s'il vous plait?

If my math's right, both Dawg and I are at L-2, as it stands with Ty's and Stel's latest votes.

You FoS'd Stels because he didn't announce that his vote put Workdawg at L-2. Why exactly is that scummy? There isn't much difference between L-2 and L-3, so should people be forced to announce at L-3? Following that logic, L-3 and L-4 aren't that different of situations, either. So should we announce that we're putting the

second

vote on someone? No, we shouldn't. It's one of those things where if you try to use it as a scumtell, there's nowhere to draw the line that says "beneath this is not a scumtell." Not announcing L-1 is definitely suspicious, but even that isn't a cut-and-dry scumtell. Anything below that, YMMD. Following this, why didn't you say anything about Ty putting Workdawg at L-2 w/o saying anythings? I don't agree that he should have to, but your views are inconsistent. Basically, what I'm getting from this is that people should announce that they are putting

you

within a half lightyear of a lynch, but anyone else is fair game? Seems like you're awfully nervous about getting even remotely close to a lynch.

In a game I started to play in another forum I was attacked left and right for not proclaiming that the person I was voting for was at L-2 when I voted for them. I'm not sure if I'd be allowed to talk about it more than that as I had to sub out of it, but suffice to say I got chewed out by nearly everyone there, so whenever someone's gonna be at L-2 or L-1, I'm gonna announce it regardless.

[Mute]

...EBWOP
****ing shift key.

By another forum, I meant within MS. It's in the Little Italy forum and is still going on now, which is why I'm not sure on whether I can say more about it.

[Mute]

Welcome and thank you Veridis for coming in.
A side-question about your name: fan of Daft Punk I guess? =P

[Mute]

Question to all since I've still got the mouth to speak with (lol name pun):
Whenever anyone posts an ISO post of several people, do you read all of it, or just the part that is directed towards you, and (slightly) skim over the rest (if at all)?

I myself am a victim of the latter a lot. I only ever read a persons entire ISO post if I'm really looking for something.

[Mute]

@asano: what exactly is it about the table and the arguments thereof that you feel is worthy of voting and putting me at L-1? Being vague does not but make you seem scummy to place a vote solely because "Purely on the basis that i am sick of the arguments about the table." Am I correct in understanding that you're tired of hearing about the table, and am voting me just to get rid of me to end the arguments altogether?

@workdawg: "Can you elaborate on how "your gut" gets me to 84?" As I said the table serves to try and quantify the suspicions I have of a person. As to the dissonance- ever want to do one thing, but something in your head says "no don't do that?" Same thing here. I

want

to put you at 84 (gut), but from the game I felt that 79 was far more fitting. Either way they both fall into the scum-watch side of the number scale. *shrug*
Also I haven't had taco bell for a few months. I don't enjoy their sauces and their peppers, and the only nearest one is conjoined with a long john silvers... ew.

[Mute]

@Mute:

LOL, thank you for addressing the taco bell issue.

On topic, I guess my interpretation of "gut" is simply your overall feeling disregarding any conclusions backed up by logic. When you say your gut gives me an 84, I would have considered both things your head and your gut say. Thoughts based on logical arguments would augment the score from there, but it's your system I suppose.

@asano234

I'm very curious about your reason for voting for Mute. Obviously I've been on his case for a while, but I have my case laid out all over the place. Your comment about just being sick of the argument doesn't do it for me, and saying that the table is swinging you from me to him doesn't either. You did put him at L-1, and while I don't mind the fact that you didn't announce this, I would say that's a pretty serious vote to throw out there without justification. I'm guilty of doing the same thing, but at least I followed up my vote with my reasons immediately.

I'm not really sure what to think about this. Your last sentence says that you will outline your thoughts later, so obviously you have some, but you can't be bothered to post them at the time of the vote? It strike me as rather suspicious to go to L-1 on someone and then leave the thread for who knows how long. It would be mighty convienient if someone else swept in and laid down the hammer on him while you are gone so that he doesn't have a chance to defend himself (though he doesn't really do this much anyone, in my experience).

(Yes, I realize the above is pretty hypocritical. I did the same thing before, but at least I gave my reasons for doing so.)

Glad you enjoyed my taco and fish based humor. I am altogether disgusted by that marriage of food chains. Dunkin Donuts and Baskin Robins in one store? MIRACULOUS WONDERMENT OF DELICIOUSOSITY; fish and tacos? OH GOD IT'S GOTTA BE SOME SORTA BAD JOKE PLEASE NO!

But yeah. Gut is simply gut, what my "hmmmm" feeling gathers and says "okay slap him with X." It's pretty much just used for "okay this seems scummy, now let's find out why." The logic ties into the why.

[Mute]

Also, no time like the present:

Players	Percent
theplague42	54
Neuky	49
Workdawg	79
Angry Scientist Asano	50 54
Naben Veridis	????????
Stels	66
Ty	67
Nachomamma8	65

I don't know why there's such a massive space between my first line and the table proper.
"what happened to you only posting it at the start of days?"
I'm posting it now 'cause I feel like it. (That I'm at L-1 is irrelevant. Yup, entirely irrelevant and plays into this decision in no way at all. )

Justifications for the numbers:
Neuky: has been doing a good job at scum-hunting, he's gotta be town in my eyes.

Stels: recently has caught my attention.

Angry: I had a pretty good town vibe from.
Asano: was a null-read, as usually (I find) it's not until a sub's third or fourth post that any real content can be found from their posts, and a vague vote without announcement is just a "what the hell guy?" moment. I keep thinking about it, about what motivations there are for it, and really I can't see any decent enough to merit a vote if all that vote's for is "I'm tired of seeing and hearing about it."

FoS: Asano

Otherwise it's a mixed read.

Naben/Veridis: firstly thank you mod for finding a replacement. Again thank you Veridis and I as well as everyone looks forward to hearing from that slot (for once). No read available.

Nacho: He's been under my eyes for the entire game. Not liking that he hasn't posted but I can't hold an announced V/LA against a person in good conscience. I get an IC's not supposed to let emotions cloud their gameplay as such, but I'm surprised by his indifference towards Ty.

Dawg: He's been the main suspect this cycle in the game. Just look through my posts.

Plague: does a decent job of scum-hunting and providing towards the town. But one thing got me; being swayed by logic so easily and casting a vote by it? Null-read alone, but will future posts prove whether he's scum or not? Unsure; I bring it up for posterity. Town-vibes though.

Ty: Don't like the active lurking, and has stated that will policy lynch lurkers, but to date never voted/pressured Naben at all. Only posts long-ass-walls.

(NOTES:
I lumped Naben and his sub together as so far nothing's come from either.
I listed my read for Angry then followed it with one on Asano as there was content from both and it varied.)

[Mute]

Mini-wall ahead. I didn't think it would be a wall, but it certainly seems longer than an average post. Edit: make that a huge wall after adding the asano section.

Mute

Plague: does a decent job of scum-hunting and providing towards the town. But one thing got me; being swayed by logic so easily and casting a vote by it? Null-read alone, but will future posts prove whether he's scum or not? Unsure; I bring it up for posterity. Town-vibes though.

This post made me laugh and head-desk simultaneously. "Being swayed by logic so easily and casting a vote by it?" First of all, that is a completely ridiculous claim. Logic is the hand behind the weapon of a lynch. What you're saying by this accusation is that scum players make logical arguments and town players make illogical arguments. That is utterly ridiculous. Townies use logic to find scum. Anyone that disagrees with the fundamental part of that statement is completely wrong, IMO.

Secondly, do my ears deceive me? I seem to remember something rather similar in the beginning of the game....

snip

VOTE: theplague42

This guy is the plague. The mafia plagues this town. Which means, he's the mafia. QED.

Ah, gotcha. Lemme guess an experiment went wrong and you were angry over the failure? =P
Also your logic is flawless.

Vote: theplague42

By this, I am in no way agreeing that using logic is a scumtell. I already explained that above. I'm instead pointing out that Mute is using a double standard when looking at scumtells. Anything he does is townie, while the same things are scummy if committed by other people. Considering that he called Angry Scientist's logic "flawless," wouldn't it make sense that I was swayed by him as well? Apparently flawless logic only applies to voting other people... Unless he's talking about my switch back to Mute from Workdawg, following Workdawg's logic. In that case, I'm guessing that Mute just doesn't want to admit that he (as well as I) was completely embarrassed by that. I was blinded by Mute's bad logic, which he certainly didn't seem to mind at the time, as I was an extra vote on his supposed suspect.

@all

We really need more activity! The majority of the posting is being done by about half the players, and its getting rather repetitive. We need other opinions!

I'd like to say you're comparing a null-tell (that I even said it was) to a vote placed during the RVS where silly antics are the way that session takes place.

Also YES SWEET MERCIFUL ABOVE. It's odd that the one IC is having issues with being V/LA and that Ty, to what I gather from the definition, is active lurking. Stels too is a bit quiet. Naben was a <censored> joke, so that's all there is to that now that he's been replaced.

[Mute]

I see both Mute and Workdawg online. I look forward to a reply. Thanks.

OH GOD THE WALL IT IS LIKE RUNNING UP A 75 DEGREE INCLINE WAAAAAAH.
</sarcasm>

The reason I said you are active lurking is the time between your posts and their size. In ISO #4 you address in your first point that

Frankly I don’t understand how the length of my posts makes me scum, in fact one would almost argue that it would be to the scum’s advantage to make shorter posts. More writing means more opportunities for a slip that could be potentially harmful.

However I would ultimately say it’s a null-tell.

It is from my first game that I've learned walls of text that are hard to read are easy for scum to use to insert fluff, weak arguments, and misdirection, and while it behooves them not to make slips they do use long walls of text to obfuscate the truth.

Either your definition is wrong, or you’ve been skimming over my posts. I’ve gone head to head with Nachomamma and now Workdawg while scumhunting, and I’ve determined with a fair amount of confidence that Workdawg is scum.

I’m sorry I’m not messing around with a table that serves no purpose, bickering with Workdawg, or posting such insightful analysis as “Stels: recently has caught my attention.”

Once again there's your snappy wit out in view again.
As for skimming, I already admitted I tend to skim. I said that here specifically. In fact I asked a question there that I'd still like an answer to, so I'll repost the question.

Question to all since I've still got the mouth to speak with:
Whenever anyone posts an ISO post of several people, do you read all of it, or just the part that is directed towards you, and (slightly) skim over the rest (if at all)?

---
As for a detailed post for why I feel Dawg is scum and deserves the lynch today...
Eh, Ill format it and post it later on. Waiting for someone to pick me up to get my car. Above that line I had written last night, and beneath of it was after, and starting with neuky's post on page nine.

@Veridis:

the Ty wagon wasn't necessarily spooked, it was redirected to Dawg.

[Mute]

Somehow me voting Ty becomes Mute and dawg arguing with each other again. I'd like you guys to try an experiment, 2 posts each without mentioning the other person.

oh and Mute, it was spooked. Workdawg backs off pretty quickly(but leaves his vote for a while), Nacho unvotes "just in case" and Stels unvotes "to be safe for the night".

Yes it is ironic that he continues to stick to me instead of other people, even when I am not addressing him at all. I do not like being shadowed. Isn't that considered a form of tunneling in this game? I don't know, but I agree it is funny he butts in there.

Also (why do I keep starting with also? :self-facepalm:) I can see your reasoning there. However I still wouldn't consider it to have been "spooked off." He did back off quickly but only to try and appear as newb-town instead of over-eager-scum, which I still say is the case. (It's been said back and forth, over and over there was no town-friendly motivation for wanting to advance the game as quickly as dawg attempted to.)

[Mute]

I'm still catching up here, but I wanted to point out that TP42 put me at L-1 in post #207. So yeah...

He pointed that fact out.

Workdawg

I have to admit, it certainly seems like you've got a strong case against me. You've obviously got quite a bit of experience hunting scum and analyzing posts. At this point, I'm not sure what I can even say to you that will convince you I'm town.

I will straight up say it, I am a townie. Any actions that you think are scum-tells are simply my ignorance at how this game is properly played. I feel like I made one major mistake and have been unable to adequately defend myself from the inquisition that's been imposed on me as a result.

Why are you claiming so early?

You are nowhere close to L-1,

even with my soon-to-be vote.

And yes, there isn't much way to defend against an attempted hammer two meatworld-days into a game-day, much less Day 1

Once again, time really played no role in my vote against you other than that I was simply anxious to do something good for the team. The evidence against you I felt was strong enough.

Considering both of the other experienced players also placed a vote against you for their own reasons, I don't see how it's unreasonable to assume that a newb town see's some things he doesn't like and then jumps on the band wagon as well; especially considering that the two experienced players are already on board.

I do not believe you for a second on this. You specifically stated that time was the main reason for voting Ty. You later frantically defended that by saying that you couldn't stand waiting two more weeks for the day to be over. Later, you switch track by saying that you have other "evidence" for voting Ty. Yet you never once give a concrete example (parroting Ty a little here) of why you voted him.

Before you voted, you said that you thought Mute was scummy. Yet you tried to hammer Ty two days into the day. Therefore:

Unvote

Vote: Workdawg

If we end up lynching him and he flips scum, I'm beginning to change my mind and to think that Mute could be his partner. The sheer amount of time that they are putting in to constantly attack one another is mindboggling. That, combined with the immediate back-down after veridis pointed it out, could indicate bussing/distancing.

Although if Workdawg is town, then I still think Mute could be scum, but my suspicion would be greater than if Workdawg is scum. Now that I say this, I'm not exactly sure why I want Workdawg lynched before Mute. But I do, if just to eliminate all chance of another "miscount" and pseudo-hammer. Lynch all Liars! Yes, by that statement I mean that I believe that Workdawg lied.

See the bold and the underlined, specifically.
Also I'm working on a response to Ty's request for a specific reason why I want Dawg lynched. So far I'm up to ISO 21.

[Mute]

If we end up lynching him and he flips scum, I'm beginning to change my mind and to think that Mute could be his partner. The sheer amount of time that they are putting in to constantly attack one another is mindboggling. That, combined with

the immediate back-down after veridis pointed it out, could indicate bussing/distancing.

Mute

Walls are only helpful to scum if they don't contain any real information. Ty's walls are progressing from SE-voice to player-voice as the game goes on, which seems completely consistent with the amount of in-game content to work with.

:scoff: Letting down? I want scum-Dawg hung up and made an example of. After the line, I'll be responding to Ty and it ties into that statement.
And I am not calling into question the content of Ty's posts right now, just the delay in time between them and the length in them. Yes that he waits so long means there's more to post about so it'd make sense for his posts to be long, but I feel there's fat in them that can be trimmed, or at least a summation of his posts that can be made.



---
@Ty: You want solid reasons of mine why Dawg is scum and needs to go? Alright. I'll post it next. I'm up to ISO #38, and instead of just bogging down a single post with that, my next post will contain the case I'm presenting against Dawg within a spoiler. Links to his ISO's will be provided, as well, within each comment therein. I feel that, at 38, I've got enough to use as my case against him, but I'm going to end the post at his ISO #41 as anything after that is recent.

[Mute]

First off, I'd like to note this took up 5 pages in my notebook to write down all this stuff. "Oh noes, that's a lot!" Not entirely... my notebook's smaller than a typical composition book, dimension-wise. So the pages aren't as big as a normal notebook. But my hands are tired.

Zomg hi.

I am a full on newbie... never played a game before, but I did plenty of reading while waiting for my account to be activated.

Hooray!

First and foremost, let us keep this fact in mind: Dawg has read up about mafia. In ISO #2 he states that this includes reading up on several normal games. These are points to keep in mind as I go on.

Ensue the wall.

Spoiler: Case against Workdawg

ISO #3: He uses a WIFOM argument to justify a vote placed on me.
ISO #4: States that he is worried about how he will be perceived by the town. Only scum would make that statement/assessment.
ISO #5:

2. Yeah, I got the number wrong, I forgot to consider that a player won't be looking at themselves. Oh well. My response to "looking for anyone scum or town" is pretty much covered above. Everyone is going to try to look town, so looking for it isn't really hard. It's looking for scum that's tricky.

States that everyone will be trying to appear as town, and while this is true of town, only scum will pay attention to how they act to ensure this. This along with his post in ISO 4 are scummy.
Also within this ISO, he calls out neuky for dismissing the table as a null-tell and attacks him for his lack of concern for it. What town motivation is there in this? There is none.
ISO #6: first asks for his rating on the table. Largely I have dismissed this post as a null-tell. However I bring it up as it plays a part later on.
ISO #7: the infamous "FailHammer." No I am not putting the (TM) thing there; that is a silly thing. I've addressed this earlier as a newb-scum slip, which is exactly what it is. He claims me to be suspect but insists on placing a vote on Ty to advance to N1. This is something only scum will want to do.
ISO #8: I read this post as "Yeah guys I messed up but look at this other guy!!" Scum diversion.
ISO #9: Makes the assumption he'll live to D2, and uses an excuse of "anxiety" to justify his failed hammer. Still not buying that excuse.
ISO #10: Further tries to defend the failed hammer with an "I wasn't aware of the vote count" post, and addresses Nacho stating that he is concerned with appearing as scum. Once again, it's only scum that will truly worry about the way they appear. Even if lynched if the town wins then all townie wins, so there's no reason for a townie to worry about appearing as scum and being lynched for it. The only worry town has is lynching scum.
ISO #11: This is largely an aside from this ISO and instead a post directed towards Dawg. I wish to clarify something: I do not think you as a person are an idiot, and I apologize if you got that impression from me. You've made a mistake, and that is that you've slipped up as scum, and I am railing on that. I hope to clarify this and clear the air that you personally I hold no ill-will towards and this won't affect any future games we may play in.
Also he notes he has the glossary open in this ISO. Useful later.
ISO #13: Says to plague that he (dawg) has confused the acronyms page and the glossary. Useful later. Also calls out Ty on his wall posts. Useful later as well. No please do not expect me to say "useful later" as a trend.
ISO #14: He states my answers regarding his questions to the table are sufficient. Useful later.
Also calls everyone BUT STELS into question. This is where I suspect he is buddying up to Stels. As you asked Ty I'll refrain from using a table to illustrate my point although that makes this much less confusing. From this post I gather that Dawg is buddying up to Stels for the first time. This implies that either Dawg is scum/Stels is town, and Dawg is buddying up to a town to spread suspicion to a townie for a mislynch later on against Stels (case A); or Dawg is scum/Stels is scum and is buddying up to his scum partner (case B).
He also paints a portrait of Nacho/Ty scum-team, and spreads a layer of WIFOM within that argument to do so. I found this scummy to accuse two players of scum via a WIFOM argument.
Also within this ISO, he claims that he has a target painted on him by scum, and uses this point to further push a pro-town stance down our throats. I am regurgitating that and saying no. Once again, only scum would repeatedly push the "I am town guys!" thing down everyone's throat.
ISO #15: Now he brushes off his miss-hammer as "an innocent mistake." He undermines the arguments about his vote against Ty by dismissing it as a non-serious point. It is not and him just sweeping a mistake he made away like that I find scummy.
ISO #16: Now we get to the single most comical attempt at pushing the pro-town thing into our faces. I'll quote it.

Also, am I supposed to analyze myself? I thought that was everyone else's job. I guess if you want that, here it is.

Workdawg Silly newb making a ton of mistakes, but he is more town than the mayor of townsvilleland..

This is his

self analysis

. That he put such a concern as trying to tell everyone he is town with this is laughable. This along with the miss-hammer are serious flags for being scum.
Then within this post he jokingly brushes aside a notion of a team of him/Stels, and uses a WIFOM argument therein, and redirects suspicion to Nacho. Really trying to spread around the suspicion to push for mislynches, eh scum?
ISO #17: In this post he brushes aside my calling him out for trying incredibly hard to appear as town within my points of 2 and 3. The rest of this post, as well as ISO's 18 and 19, I made the mistake. (See I own up to my mistakes (eventually...))
ISO #20: States that my answers were never "comfortable" enough for him. Look back up at ISO #14. This is a contradiction. Scum-move. What changed between ISO 14 where you were satisfied with my responses, and ISO 20 where they were no longer good enough for you?
ISO #21: In this post he mis-correctly defines bussing. If you'll note in ISO 13, he states to plague that he had mixed up the glossary pages and acronyms pages within the wiki. Do I believe he would make the same mistake twice? No, I do not. This is simply an error in continuity, and frankly I felt this to be a mix of a scum-tell, and a null-tell. I cannot pinpoint where exactly it lies for me but I mention it as an in-depth analysis was requested of me. Interpret this however you wish.
Also,

@Dawg

I did not contradict myself. I said that too much information can be detrimental, not information as a whole. You're nitpicking and misconstruing a tiny issue to use as a case against me to portray me as scum; this I find as a weak-argument and a scum-tactic.
ISO #22: Places his vote onto me.
ISO #23: Claims that "I am looking more and more scum to him" but never fully clarifies his case against me. This is not just within this ISO post but throughout the game. He's never given what I feel is a strong enough case against me. This is obviously useful later.
ISO #24: states "evidence has only been mounting and mounting against me," but neglects to provide any evidence of this (see ISO 23). Scum spreading a weak case and pushing for a mislynch is my read on this post.
Also, asks for the third time (I never saw a second time before this ISO post.) for his rating on my table. Seriously scummy for wanting to know something that, by everyone, has been argued as useless fluff, a null-tell, and/or unimportant and not worth discussing any more. Useful later. (Okay I lied about the comment becoming a trend within this post. Sorry. )
ISO #25: Yes, I tunneled too hard. It blinded me then, but I am not named Blind, I am Mute. I have seen where I messed up. Now then enough name puns, back to work.
Here in this ISO, he states I haven't defended my table well enough. Once again, this is in conflict with ISO 14. Seriously, how many times can one get caught in a lie? Next up (and this is how I have it written in my notebook), he states that his questioning of my table is him scum-hunting, yet in the same sentence says that he disagrees with me about the table bogging down on real scum-hunting... So focusing on the table is scum-hunting? Hypocrisy here, scum.
Also in this ISO states that I have been feeding the town lies regarding the table when questioned about it... Once again this is in contradiction to ISO 14, and also worth pointing out is he is the most vocal against it. So, he's using his disagreement with the table to try and mislead everyone into thinking that I'm scum and using his disagreement with it as his case... Is this the case he meant in ISO 23? That he doesn't like nor agree with my table so therefore I am scum? I've never heard such a weak case.
ISO #26: States here in this ISO that he is over the table, but not before he attacks me some more for it. Keep in mind he said he is over it. Specifically:

I'm over the table, you've proven nothing but the ability to say the same thing a few different ways.

Also in the start of ISO 26 says I'm doing nothing to help my case, while once again not clarifying what his case on me is.
ISO #27: Here he contradicts his previous post by saying he is over the table and attacks the table again and pushes it again as his sole-evidence against me. He keeps pushing a weak argument against me to get me lynched, and this I see as scummy.
ISO's #28 and 29 are useless.
ISO #30: More arguments against the table... you really like beating that dead horse eh Mr. Scum?
ISO 31 is junk.
ISO #32: First off, lemme just say this was a great post to rip-apart. Thank you Dawg.
Now then, where do we start? Oh yeah.

Wow... nice post Stels. Woot!

The second instance of buddying. Now you may be asking yourselves "Wait a second Mute, why is this a case of buddying?"
Well boys and girls, please read that post by Stels which prompted that response from Dawg. Now, look at how Stels rated everyone. Of everyone, Only Dawg received a straight-town vibe from Stels. His exact words on his impression?

Appears scummy, but I get a newb-townish vibe from him.

Now, the rest of Stels reads? Either a null, or a town/null read... Except for me, whom Stels calls scummy, and proceeds to vote for me.
Now this is why I feel they are buddying up. Dawg is given a "scum but newb-town" read by Stels, I am given a "scummy" read. Dawg and I have been going back and forth, and here Stels comes along and joins in with Dawg and votes for me. If nothing else this is the greatest example of their buddying this game, and does so as a stand-alone post. Used in unison with ISO 14, the second case of a Dawg/Stels scum-team seems much more likely.
---
Still within this ISO (see I told you I enjoyed this post), gives yet

another

justification for the failed-hammer, and presents a case against Ty and Nacho.
Now, two things. One- why are you still trying to justify what you did? It happened, and any townie would move on from it. You really want to not make yourself seem scum by trying to justify things you said in the past. This backfired to me. Second,

didn't Stels just say you seemed scummy?

Why are you not addressing this and simply accepting the "newb-town" vibe? Any townie would argue why they are perceived as scum and want a person's justification of it. You do no such thing and simply congratulate Stels then go on your merry way.
Also you mention looking in the wiki for the definition of ISO. Couldn't do that for the definition of bussing?
ISO #33: In this post he says he is satisfied by the response Ty gives him, and returns his "focus" towards me. Yes those two posts of mine before then lacked much real content, I had things going on in real life. Bad excuse, but your case against me is a bad excuse for a case as well.
ISO #34: OH GOD THE WALLS THEY KEEP GETTING COMING CLOSER! (Yes, I read this entire post. I said I only read them if I'm looking for stuff. Sorry Ty, but I do skip walls if they don't specifically address me unless I need to read them. I digress.)
This ISO he presents a post against Ty... wait didn't you just say you were fine with him and were focusing more on me? Anyways, he posts a post targeting Ty. He uses the "I wasn't the only one to vote for you, so look at these other guys!" scum-tactic to defend himself. Diverting attention away from you and shifting the blame to the wagon as a whole I see as only something a scum would do. Specifically, he mentions mine, Stels, and Nacho's votes on Ty.
---
Once again, says he'll flip town... Come on guys, we've heard it enough times from him that "I'm town guys really and truly!!" that it's getting old and obvious he's scum.
---
Also here in ISO 34 he states that he was always against my table and my stance on how I am viewing this game, which is hypocritical to ISO 14; and my inability to respond to questions, which is a lie. The only thing about this that holds any water is that he has repeatedly said he isn't satisfied with my answers.
Now, why is he, in post 164, only referring to posts 13, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, and 29 regarding questions about the table? What town-motivation is there for omitting so many posts just to prove a point; why use such a weak case to try and yet again make everyone think I am scum? There is none.

I could continue this this, but I think my point is clear.

I'd like you to please go on as from my stance, your entire case against me is "I don't like your answers to my questions because I want to see you lynched and I don't like your table because I don't like it." This is a weak case in every sense of the word. Everyone (if you're even reading this far, which I say kudos to you for), can't we just lynch this scum and be done with it already? =_=
ISO #35:

@Mute:
You've still managed to completely avoid talking about my thoughts on you (aside from mentioning that I'm "nitpicking") Are you going to defend yourself at all or are you going to simply stick to speculating about my scum team with Stels?

I've considered this to be the only thing of mention in this post. I am honestly glad he enjoyed my taco-and-fish based humor in a later post, but I chose not to respond to you because I simply saw no reason to. I was too busy finding holes and dealing with other things than to deal with your flimsily built case against me. Otherwise this post is junk.
ISO #36: Once again, you're welcome. I try to inject humor into my posts, if only to lighten the mood. I know how serious and heated these games can become.
Now, in this post he questions why Asano (the replacement for Angry Scientist) placed a vote onto me. Now, what I found worthy of note is Dawg stating this:

Obviously I've been on his case for a while, but I have my case laid out all over the place. Your comment about just being sick of the argument doesn't do it for me, and saying that the table is swinging you from me to him doesn't either.

Erm... Where have you presented your "case" against me that

isn't

about the table and how you just don't like it? Also, if your case is "all over the place," why not present it in this post? Why haven't you presented it yet? What are you building your case out of that isn't the table and your lack of approval to the answers I've given to your various inquiries? Also, you say that him being sick of the table doesn't "do it" for you... Erm, weren't you done with the table back in ISO 26? Hypocritical post here.
ISO #37: Here, he chastises Asano for a vote on me that was basically for no reason... wait a second, wasn't Dawg's vote in ISO #7 for no reason? Oh no wait you attempted to

hammer

Ty, just to advance the game, whereas Asano put me into L-1 to get a reaction from it. His vote is as much a town-placed vote as your vote then is a scum-placed one. He didn't intend to hammer, nor proceed to the next game-phase, he wanted information. I find you talking to him about placing a "pointless vote" to be a hypocritical argument and laugh at how disingenuous that was.
Also within this ISO, he brings up Stels unvote. This is how I read that part of that post: "Why are you abandoning me partner??"
ISO #38: and now he starts to come undone. *cue the song by Korn of the same name*
Plague calls him out on his lecturing Ty. He parrots his past defenses and completely

lies

for the original reason for it.
ISO #39: This is what I feel should be the final nail in the coffin. Ty, this is where I give you kudos. Dawg, you dun goofed this time, and this was my second favorite post to tear up this ISO readthrough.
---
Here, he outright claims to be town... and yet he isn't in L-1 at the time of this post. There is NO town-motivation to claim ANY role when not in an L-1 motivation unless you are doing so to oust a scum member by claiming a PR. (PR = power role)
This is right after, in the same sentence that he claimed to be a townie:

Any actions that you think are scum-tells are simply my ignorance at how this game is properly played.

Remember that opening post of his? He is not ignorant to the ways of this game. Even in his opening post, and throughout the rest of his posts, he's shown he's aware of the material in the wiki, and has observed the goings-on of the game itself. Flat-out saying he's read through games and played along on the sidelines, trying to see if his reads matched up with the players in the game. He is lying through his teeth with this to appear town.
And I'm not even done yet!

This post is filled with more appeal than Bill Clinton

! He flatout appeals to emotion here:

While I suppose it's a rather ridiculous request, if you were to analyze ISO 7 and 8 as if they had been posted in one post, at the time of the vote, would that make you feel any differently about the situation? I agree that it can easily look like I'm just trying to cover my tracks,

but if you give me the benefit of the doubt and just chalk it up to a rookie mistake that I left off my reason due to my anxiousness, maybe it looks less scummy.

I'd like to think that if I were newb-scum, I would have been more careful not to look too scummy, rather than to just jump in head first without concern for how it appears to everyone else. Didn't you say that it's typically the scum players who are concerned with how they appear? Though clearly I have much to learn about playing this game.

If that ain't appeal to emotion then I don't know what is. This is a sign he's finally caved under pressure. And immediately he uses a WIFOM argument to try and defend himself!
---
Next up is the part of his post underneath "About my reasons for voting against you."
This is made ENTIRELY OUT OF

Appeal to Authority and Appeal to Majority

:
"I was simply anxious to do something good for the team," "Considering both of the other experienced players also placed a vote against you for their own reasons," "I don't see how it's unreasonable to assume that a

newb town

see's some things he doesn't like and then jumps on the band wagon as well; especially considering that the two experienced players are already on board."
There he goes again claiming to be a newb town!
"It's my first game here, the two experienced players both make points against you which leads me to reread your posts and analyze them more carefully. I come to the conclusion that I also feel you are likely scum, and then I cast my vote. Maybe I was being "led by sheep", but they had made better arguments than you at that time."
I swear when I read those paragraphs I felt like I was seeing him groveling on his knees and begging everyone to accept he is town, which he is not.

"As far as concrete examples of your useless information. I don't really have any."
Aha! He, Dawg, has no examples against you, Ty, and yet suspected you on and off the ENTIRE GAME so far.

Even though you've posted less frequently than you did before, it seems clear that the content of your posts is much more relevant to this game. You've moved off of the advice giving and on to the scum hunting (I only wish I weren't your target).

My take on this? "I concede to you Ty and give you the recognition that you have beaten me" The instant a person accepts defeat that is crystal-clear they are scum and accept that they have been outed. The instant you give up you lose.

The table/Mute

I already stated that I'm over the table. I don't give a <bleep> about it anymore.

Erm, you said that in ISO 26, then continued to attack it... Hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy = ??? Hypocrisy x2...
THE MATH, IT HURTS!
Anyways you are a hypocrite and a liar.

I have been unsatisfied with Mute's responses to my questions (it took me 3 requests to get him to tell me my number, ffs), and

THAT is the reason that my vote has been on him from the very beginning.

I'll spend some time tomorrow analyzing that more carefully, again, if you like.

AND NOW WE FINALLY GET TO WHY HE VOTED FOR ME. His vote is centered ENTIRELY ON THE FACT THAT I DIDN'T GIVE HIM HIS ARBITRARY NUMBER WHEN HE WANTED IT. THIS IS SO WEAK I AM LAUGHING SO MUCH IT HURTS. Not only that, his

entire case

was built on his dissatisfaction with my table/the answers I've given him. I suspected it earlier on but THIS just confirms it. His entire case against me isn't because he thinks I'm scum, he just doesn't like those things. This is pure scum-pushing for a mislynch.
---
Now, you'd think with that I'd be done with him... but I'm not, there's a little more.

Should I just roll over and accept defeat now that "one of the most vocal scumhunter in the game" is on my case?

Actually I feel you already have for the above reasons. So yes, please accept defeat. After this he spreads more WIFOM around and inclusion of the others voting for Ty. He's repeating himself now. He's clearly been beaten.

It may only be two days into the game, but A LOT has occured.

And we're only here because you failed to hammer Ty early on and prevent the town to lynch you. We're only this far because we've had the opportunity to, something scum wouldn't want.

I suppose for someone who's only posted all of 7 times it might not seem like much, but there are nearly 200 posts in this thread.

Quality > Quantity, anytime and every time.
ISO #40: Just further points out others have voted for Ty.

I am exhausted. It took me a little over 2 and a half hours to just type this, not including the breaks, and not including the hour and 40 minutes it took to organize into my notebook. I also did something to address to nacho and his questions posed to me but as it stands I am too tired to deal with them and will when I wake up if the game has not progressed to N1. *yawn*

If you have read that entire wall I say "wow you be crazy;" also thank you for that as well if you did. Tried to be as concise as possible.

[Mute]

I never said that Dawg, so why is my name up there in "Mute wrote:" ?

[Mute]

I mentioned I'd respond to the questions Nacho directed towards me in his latest post.
The questions I gathered that were directed towards me:
-why wasn't I backing off from tunneling?
-why is dawg only 79 and not 100?
-if something i do is scummy why do it?
-Do i really suspect both scum are attacking me?
-do I agree with post 147?

In order are my responses:
>I tunnel when I see reasonable cause. I firmly believe dawg is scum.
>There is no guarantees for anything until a flip.
>Why should I let that stop to me from hunting scum?
>It's as likely as anything.
>For reference there is nothing to post 147. can you clarify what exactly this is supposed to say?

[Mute]

Sorry for the double post - but what's with the Cinclanflint thing TP?

Yeah, what is this?

I'll post about what's occurred eventually. I want to hear from everyone else first.

[Mute]

sorry double post.

After doing a google search, a few links came up with regards to the US Fleet and how it ties into the Navy. I am impressed/terrified you know that I'm going into the Navy plague, as I don't recall ever mentioning that on this site. Even more odd is that I'm not even going to be an officer, but an enlisted sailor when I go in for basic.

relevant link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... es_Command

[Mute]

Dawg I will respond to both this counter-wall and your other posts on page 10 but as I was reading over them this stood out the most, so much so that I feel the need to state it directly.

This post is filled with more appeal than Bill Clinton

! He flatout appeals to emotion here:

While I suppose it's a rather ridiculous request, if you were to analyze ISO 7 and 8 as if they had been posted in one post, at the time of the vote, would that make you feel any differently about the situation? I agree that it can easily look like I'm just trying to cover my tracks,

but if you give me the benefit of the doubt and just chalk it up to a rookie mistake that I left off my reason due to my anxiousness, maybe it looks less scummy.

I'd like to think that if I were newb-scum, I would have been more careful not to look too scummy, rather than to just jump in head first without concern for how it appears to everyone else. Didn't you say that it's typically the scum players who are concerned with how they appear? Though clearly I have much to learn about playing this game.

If that ain't appeal to emotion then I don't know what is. This is a sign he's finally caved under pressure. And immediately he uses a WIFOM argument to try and defend himself!

Still on the WIFOM boat I see. In any case, you seemed pretty concerned about my appealing to people emotions... so what? Just because it's something scum will do to try and save themselves doesn't mean that it's a 100% scum tell. You already said that you went down and your only defense was to let yourself get lynched.

Maybe you should have tried appealing to emotion. Why would anyone about to be lynched NOT try to stay in the game?

If there is some sort of secret town move in which going and getting themselves lynched, then that's fine... but that's not the case here.

Let me remind you of something: town doesn't need to worry about being lynched, only in lynching scum. Scum want to stay alive to win.
Town as a whole wins when all scum are lynched. Rephrased: Even if a townie is dead if all scum are dead then all the townies win.
I don't feel I need to appeal to emotion to stay alive. I feel you chose to appeal to emotion because you needed to stay alive. I know that even if I'm dead the town will win when you and your partner are dead. You suggesting to me that maybe

I

should have appealed to emotion, when there was no pressure on me to even merit that, is (if I am getting this usage of the term right) terrible scum bussing a townie for a mislynch.

That is all for now. I needed to say this as I laughed when I read it. I understand seeing his latest posts makes people want to unvote him as "he seems to have changed," but even if a leopard somehow does manage to change it's spots it will still be a leopard.

[Mute]

Hey all, bit busy tonight. I'll be posting tomorrow, don't worry.

-sits patiently awaiting post-

Same for nacho.

As for you dawg, I've got some things to reconsider. Starting going back over this game in my head while I was out driving and an idea occured to me.
Of those an awareness that my gameplay's a bit... bad, no matter how you look at it.
I know, newbie games to get better, learn from mistakes, so on and so forth, but just some ideas I've got and wanna see how they fare, both about this game and in general.

[Mute]

I'd love if Mute and Workdawg worked on developing cases on their #2 suspects though because these walls are going overboard and even if one of you is right about the other, there are scumbuddies.

this ^

One of you guys may be right about the other - but consider the possibility that town is tunnelling town..
I've got some time on Sunday, so I'll post tomorrow, something a bit more substantive.

I have.
For now though all my other cases are weak. I'll go-back and read the thread over again and try to ignore the dawg-me back and forth and see what others have said, but Naben having to be replaced for outright deserting the game...

Iuno.

[Mute]

@Stels - you did say earlier that when you give advice its generally for everyone - can you explain how this post is in the interests of town?

@Stels: I haven't lied yet, and I don't intend to start now. Certainly not to claim to scum for no reason.

With this, you can't claim a PR anymore, if there are any. Just saying.

Stels was more than likely pre-empting a false-claim..

[Mute]

Say later on Dawg is still alive and is put into L-1 again. with him saying quite a few many times that he's a townie, for him to claim a PR would just show he'd be lying and trying to find a reason to stay alive; is what I gather from that post of Stels.

[Mute]

@Stels:

Workdawg has obviously read a lot of games and articles. I'm sure that he's read about "Lynch All Liars" sometime or another. Your warning (yes, I'm calling it a warning) is unnecessary if Workdawg is as knowledgable as I believe him to be. I'll say again, the "just saying" comment really irks me. Calling it "warning" instead of "advice" also makes me suspicious. The words are pretty much synonymous in this usage, so it seems like you're trying to get away from accusations of being scumbuddies without changing the intent of what you say. Both "warning" and "advice" convey a meaning of telling someone what they shouldn't do. It's completely unnecessary in this case.

Plague's said it. I've got a serious feeling of you and him buddying up. With each of your posts towards Dawg I gather that assumption, hence why I said that.

[Mute]

@Drench: -throws marshmallows at-

=P

now then
Both Neuky and Ty have brought up something I've only suspected, but it still only makes weak sense (the argument that due to their (lack of) activity Naben/Veridis are scum.

Iuno. I'd like to have more to go on though.

Unvote

prepatory.

[Mute]

@Stels:

Workdawg has obviously read a lot of games and articles. I'm sure that he's read about "Lynch All Liars" sometime or another. Your warning (yes, I'm calling it a warning) is unnecessary if Workdawg is as knowledgable as I believe him to be. I'll say again, the "just saying" comment really irks me. Calling it "warning" instead of "advice" also makes me suspicious. The words are pretty much synonymous in this usage, so it seems like you're trying to get away from accusations of being scumbuddies without changing the intent of what you say. Both "warning" and "advice" convey a meaning of telling someone what they shouldn't do. It's completely unnecessary in this case.

Plague's said it. I've got a serious feeling of you and him buddying up. With each of your posts towards Dawg I gather that assumption, hence why I said that.

So what do you want me to do about it? Want me to stop talking to Workdawg? Should I just go and isolate myself in the corner so no one can buddy-up to me anymore? Want me to stop giving advice? Fine! We got an IC and another SE here to do that in my place. Is that really helpful? Figure it out for yourselves.

-sigh-
There's no need to become so irate. I get it, you're frustrated because you're doing your part of an SE.


Also Neuky, Stels' at L-2. votes on him are placed by Plague, Nacho, and Ty, if my math from the latest vote count's right, adjusted for new actions.

[Mute]

Plague earlier on I commented on Naben, and how it was a few days after the game started that he had confirmed, and had not posted and was forced to be replaced.

That really does make a good case for that slot to be lynched. Personally I would like to lynch that slot, but as it stands it's semi-vacant since veridis is being replaced. Why'd I like to see that slot lynched? There's been no content added to the game from that slot and the original player had confirmed and not posted at all, even if the confirm was waaaaaaaaaaaaay too late.

[Mute]

To expand on that, yes, I'd count that as a push for a "Lynch All Lurkers" lynch.

[Mute]

It's cool Asano; best of luck to you and your family.

Letter of the Day Nacho?

[Mute]

@Dawg:

I have to ask, what was the idea that caused you to get off my wagon like someone lit it on fire? There was certainly quite a bit of posting going on between your previous post and the one above, but you were 100% convinced that I was scum before, and you haven’t yet said what it was that changed your mind.

Right now, I say that to progress the game, it'd be better to lynch the single most detrimental player, the one who did nothing, and the replacement that was forced to enter and provided little as well. That slot is doing nothing this game, and if it's a scum-slot then more the better reason to add to lynch it.

EDIT::
@Plague:
6 posts by the replacement. Of them he managed to vote for Ty and give vague arguments/reasons for his cases.

[Mute]

Tell me plague, what is worse for town in this game, a player that provides material that can be interpreted either as scum or town, and continues to the dialog, or a player that does nothing?

[Mute]

Naben, why's the time when people confirm something to note? I've never understood why people bring it up in hopes of arguing "well scum will be watching the game to see when it starts." Dawg has free time from his job, I've got free time from my lack of a job.

[Mute]

Problem is he's being replaced without any warning. Same with Nacho. At least Ty came in and gave both his reason and an extra farewell of his final reads.

I'm willing to wait for a replacement for that slot but they'd better get a good read of the thread and give some usable speculations.

[Mute]

Dawg: I grew tired of our back and forths that led nowhere.

[Mute]

Neither... or rather, the latter in partial.
I don't rule out a possibility you could be town but I won't drop my suspicion on you yet. I want to lynch a slot whose occupants thus far have done little to advance the town. Call it over-aggressive if you must, I stand by that.

Frankly I want to advance the game to D2 so we can start using more than just speculation based on words to find someone to lynch.

[Mute]

Dawg you comparing a time two days into the game, versus about one week from deadline.

=_=

[Mute]

Then please, who would make a better target then?

[Mute]

I can see missing the questions, especially since Mute has already said he only reads parts of the game, but I've referred back to the questions multiple times and they still go unanswered. Even when he replies to the very post the question is in.

If I've missed a question, it's because I wasn't aware there was one.
If I haven't answered a question it's because I'm forgetful. Which have I not answered yet?

[Mute]

@Mute

-snip-

======
So, I guess you did reply to my questions, but is there really an answer in there?
Is it neither or the latter.
Is it lynching a lurker better than lynching scum?

There was.
It was the latter, which I further explained.
Lurking is not good for town, so one point for lynching lurkers; the lurkers could very well be scum, so another point for lynching the lurkers. There is only speculation towards a person being scum so "lynching scum" is a matter of proper investigation, guesswork, and luck. It's not until a flip is a person confirmed scum, even further "lynching scum" is an open-ended thing to say as anyone can be scum.

[Mute]

@Nacho: I've said my opinions time over on Stels I believe. If not, then I feel suspicious enough of Stels but not enough to put him into L-1.
Also I'm not letting it slide, I want to lynch the right person. Right now I want rid of the one slot that's provided nothing useful/substantial to this game.

@Dawg: all of the bolded minus the "for fun."
also:

When I said lynching scum I meant someone who was 100% scum. So the proper investigation, guesswork and luck are not a factor.

Again, there is no "100% scum" until a flip. The questioning of people, interpreting the answers, and "investigation" are entirely paramount. Guesswork and luck come into play when deciding on a person to lynch, with the hope that due to the events that unfold, they turn out to be scum.
Why are you saying that they are irrelevant? The only people who need not do any investigation are scum as they know who is town from the get-go. You dismissing the investigation process is alarming.

FoS

Belated hello to Sundy, and I hope the walls aren't too much to sift through.

[Mute]

@Mute

Firstly, the original question is: What happened to drop me from 100% scum to lower on your list than a random lurker?

Maybe it's me misreading your posts

, but I don't see an actual answer to this in any of your posts yet.

To your most recent post: Do you have some sort of magical ability to misinterpret my posts? I thought it was clear that it was a hypothetical situation in which you were 100% certain that a person was scum. If that is the case, THEN you don't need to bother with investigation, etc. I guess you can twist around my post to turn it back into an FOS though.

*sigh*

Okay, first point: You did misread something.. I said why I was dropping my vote, as I was tired of our back and forths that led nowhere and decided it was better to go after a slot that's provided nothing this game.

Second point:
...
Okay what? In a hypothetical situation... huh? It's D1, there is NO 100% scum. There is only speculation towards that end of finding scum.

...I looked through my posts in ISO and I couldn't find anything where I gave any sort of scenario where a person was 100% scum. If you can find in my posts somewhere where I say something like that I'll concede I suck at finding things. The only thing remotely close to that was me adding in my two cents with ISO post #54, along with my initial standpoint, but even that was never a definitive thing.

And yes I will tear your posts apart if I so deem. I made the FoS as you said that investigation's needless. This never applies to town. I am calling you out for even saying that.
A part of me feels like saying "uh that second part seems kinda role-fishing-y," but that part of me is stupid and I don't listen to it. It does make sense but I don't listen to it. The main reason it thinks that between picking it's ears is this line:

I thought it was clear that it was a hypothetical situation

in which you were 100% certain that a person was scum

. If that is the case, THEN you don't need to bother with investigation, etc.

Especially for the text in bold is what makes me think that and that part of me draw that conclusion. If it's not then please clarify/explain and I'll take that part of me out behind the mental shed in my imaginary back yard and put it down. (...boo, bad joke. boo.)

[Mute]

A) I'm not unsure of you being scum dawg. Now however everyone is focusing on a second target.
And thank you Sundy for your input, and I am sorry you won't get to Neuky but

Vote: Stels

Enjoy the sunset everyone.

[Mute]

give reason for*

I just find it extraordinarily odd that you're afraid of putting Stels at L-1, but you're happy with lynching him?

Wasn't afraid, just didn't want to put them into hammer-position.
Making the case that I'm not afraid to hammer someone; also if it were someone other than Stels I wouldn't have hammered but I had suspicions of my own on him so yeah.

And no I didn't log off, I had to bring in frozen shrimp (which I'm allergic to so why they were even bought if no one will eat them is beyond me), and am playing BLOps ATM.

[Mute]

Zeroth:

@Mod: How'd that prod work out, will veridis be here or are you going to look for someone else (again)?

Firstly: I am withholding my vote. Dawg, you're not my top suspect any longer.

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy. But..

@Stels:
Nothing fun happens until Day 3 . But I'm likely to be killed early in this game, so I might as well make the best out of the time I have, right?

Just lynch the last scum after I'm gone, okay?

I can guess he assumed he was going to die? Iuno. I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

Thirdly: @Sundy- Go read Stels' first few posts. Read the posts of his where he mentions Nacho. I can't describe it but they felt out of place for me, especially the first post of his where "he was happy to see him." Combined later on with he says how townie Nacho can be, but this really stood out. Why? At the end, the "hope you're not scum" and "would like to sweep scum with you;" these were trying too hard. They were weaker cases and I didn't mention them, as most of my focus was towards Dawg.

Fourth: Nacho was the cop, meaning that either the last mafia is a godfather, or a goon, and town may or may not have a doctor still in hiding. I will assume the 2 goon-1 cop-6 town setup from today on with my case making. I don't wanna have a case built up on relying on a doctor if there isn't one.

Fifth: I believe Ty to be town, Neuky may be town, and I know I am town. This is all I will reveal at the moment until I can organize my thoughts better.

Lastly: You may not like my defense for lynching Stels. That's cool if you don't. I wanted to hammer because, if I were to put them into L-1 people might start to re-think their votes. This is the frustration I had with Dawg. While it still amazes me everyone's accepted that it was a "newbie mistake" of his to nearly lynch Ty, it is only so because of him repeating it over and over, and everyone just accepting it as true. Psychology has a term for this, where if an individual repeats something over and over, the group will eventually accept it to be true. I did not and I will not fall for it, and I still call it a scum-slip, but Nacho's posts are why he was killed and I intend to find out why.

[Mute]

No Sundy I hammered because I

didn't

want another "oh let's hear their excuse and find a new target" debate. That would've been needless. Instead of giving scum the opportunity to weasel away I took the initiative to lay the final vote.

[Mute]

@Mute

You seem to contradict yourself here. The very first line says I'm not your top suspect anymore... but the last paragraph is pretty much all about how I talked my way out of getting lynched and you "aren't buying" my claims of being town. Either I'm town or I'm not, there is no other option. You can't "not buy it" and think someone else is scum, especially now that there is only one scum left. Before Stels got lynched, there was a legit reason to focus on someone else. You could ignore me and build your case for a lynch against another player. Now you have to choose one person.

Remember when I first started, "everyone's scum to my eyes and posts prove otherwise?" This is not contradictory, my saying that.

I think Nacho got NKd simply because he was the IC. The choice of NKing an experienced player seems obvious, even to me, and Ty has barely been around at all. Nacho and Stels have both said that the game, and their own scum hunting, really starts to pick up after the first day. That would mean the experienced players become a greater threat at that time. I don't think it had anything to do with anything nacho said.

According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.
Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.
veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.

What I'm doing now is weighing in on who would benefit most from him dead. People he's targeted, people that've targeted him, so on and so forth. Scum does not kill without reason.

Your reasoning for lynching Stels is still extremely weak to me(You even said so above!), despite him actually flipping scum. His conversation with Nacho simply seems like genuine friendly banter between two people who know each other to me. After the failhammer incident, I would expect everyone in this thread (myself included) to have a solid reason for laying down the hammer, but nope. You just come in swinging with an admittedly weak argument.

"Friendly banter," or needless fluff by scum to appear as town as possible to a friend?
After your failed attempt at prematurely ending the day, yeah, people would expect a solid reason..but coming from you I don't take that as seriously as if from others.
Also, even if it was a weak case, I was right with everyone else that voted, that Stels was scum.

Lastly, according to the wiki... F11 setups with a cop are either 6 town, 1 cop, 2 goons or 5 town, 1 cop, 1 doc, 1 goon and 1 mafia RB. So either we are left with a goon and 6 town, or a doc, an RB and 5 town.

Good eye, missed that in preview. The comma after godfather should be a semi-colon, and godfather should be RB.

[Mute]

Lol exactly! He wanted to make sure that his buddy was lynched and he was the innocent, brave townie who hammered at the risk of facing our wrath afterward.

You'll be surprised by how sharp Occams Razor is.

Woah, I suppose it is 4 votes to lynch... and by my count, Sundy, Me and you = 3... so L-1 indeed.

I'm just as surprised that I'm currently at L-1, less than 24 hours into D2.

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy.

and

I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

@ Mute - I'd like you to elaborate on these statements if possible - especially the "easy" bit?

Well, it isn't as easy as I had first thought, but I'll see how well I can elaborate what I meant.
Disregard that he was the IC this game; he's done enough posting to merit him being a target N1. He's questioned nigh on everyone in the game, and given nothing solid to go on, e.g. "This person is scum because [X, Y, Z]," except only in passing. I've a great deal of talent when it comes to picking up on reads of people, i.e. whether or not I like what I see. So far (real life and game-wise), it's proven pretty damn successful. Believe me or not, I've got the hammer of Stels this game and my first game here as a doc (link in sig) that should speak enough as evidence to that end.

HoS: Plague:

you put me into L-1, and ~2 hours later announce I am at L-1.
But hey, you asked me to claim so- I am a Vanilla townie.

Ummm, you never gave an actual psychology term. And this is a game where constant repetition is actually suspicious, IMO.

A) I don't know the term. I'm looking through google/wikipedia at the moment to find it, but while doing so I found this interesting thing: semmelweis reflex. 'ccoring do here it's listed as "the tendency to reject new evidence that contradicts an established paradigm." Why bring it up? Town: Don't fall victim to this. If you've reason enough to think someone is scum go for it. But make sure it's right.
B) If you think that, then why is your vote now on me and not Dawg? I've read what you've posted and I don't feel you're being strong enough for a townie to be pushing for my lynch.

Zeroth:

@Mod: How'd that prod work out, will veridis be here or are you going to look for someone else (again)?

Firstly: I am withholding my vote. Dawg, you're not my top suspect any longer.

In that case, who is?

You are.
Since I know it'll come eventually, pre-empting questions here:
"Why aren't you voting for plague if he's your top suspect?"
1- Because if I'm going to vote it won't be for something that can be played off as OMGUS. I want my votes to matter.
2- I'd like to hear more and see how things progress. If I feel the need to later on I'll make my vote.

Rather then more quotes, I'll just address your points in order.

1. I concede that it works based on your "scum until proven town" methodology, as silly as that way of thinking seems to me.
2. I look forward to your analysis. In the mean time, would you care to comment on my analysis of your top 3 choices?
3. What difference does it make if I point out that you had a weak reason for hammering or if someone else does? If Sundy quoted me and asked you to reply, would you answer him? Are you just ignoring anything I bring up that you don't have a good answer to, like you have the entire game?

1)

No comment there. Conflicting thought processes aren't anything seriously worth mentioning in case-building, as it's needless fluff. Its worked for me so far, so there's that.

2)

Not a problem. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you're referencing here, right?

According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.

Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.

veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.

This is correct in whom is remaining.
I'd like to ask you to rephrase the bolded in a more cohesive manner if you could, no matter how many times I re-read it I can't follow it.
RE: Veri - Yes. Scum want to avoid suspicion. Veri could be scum doing so, or he could
RE: plague - An aside first: Stels was scum and Nacho was cop, which leaves Ty as the last of the SE/IC players here. Deductive reasoning I'm using is that it's unlikely that scum will both be more experienced players, so with the experienced down it leaves the regular players to check. Using that I cleared Ty of suspicion for myself entirely. Neuky and plague are both arguably the strongest towns players here, but I only listed Neuky as I've felt he was the strongest. The way plague's posted this game felt too waxy for me for him to be town.
RE: Sundy - (s)he was on the right trail with Stels, and I don't deny I've done scummy things according to others, but I am not about to change how I am playing this game because of that. Sundy feels town to me, as they've brought information to the table and have cross-checked the existing info as well.

3)

If I am posed a question by Sundy, I'll answer it. Don't see why you had to include yourself into that equation but okay.
The difference? I made sure of the vote count. My vote for Stels was because I had enough reason to vote for him. You voted and attempted to hammer Ty simply because you were eager to advance the game and thought he was already at L-1 incorrectly. That's the difference between our two "hammer" votes.
And I ignore your questions which are either ambiguous, or have no real way of being answered, or I have already answered. Mainly because it seems no matter what answers I give you, you're hardly ever satisfied with them.

[Mute]

ERP DERP DIDERPER DER.

EBWOP: "RE: Veri - Yes. Scum want to avoid suspicion. Veri could be scum doing so, or he could"
*cont: be just uninterested in the game, hence why I am asking the progress with his prod.

Also, in afterthought:

@Mod: Vote count and repeating my earlier question, s'il vous plait?

[Mute]

Vote: Mute

Here. I'm gonna set this here, go take care of some personal business, then come back and read what was posted between my two posts.

[Mute]

Unvote

Yay driving.
Errands are done, but I'm going out drinking with some friends tonight, some broohaha about a party or some such, iuno. I was invited so why not.

Vote was a test, yielded no results sadly, but speculations came to mind whilst I was out.
@Sundy: Everything I've done is for a reason. I know, I'm appearing as very scummy to you all. If you wanna lynch me for it be my guest, you'd all be justified in that, but it won't get you the last scum kill.

@Dawg: (this is the shortest response I can make to you out of the questions you posed) you said this: "Why didn't you lay out your evidence and try to encourage the town to lynch him?" I don't want scum knowing every thought I've got. While information is good, some information can hurt town more than help it. I withheld my thoughts for that reason.
Also no I cannot at this time explain why I said I felt his posts were waxy. That is the vibe I got from them, so no that I cannot answer.

@Neuky: I know, lack of surprise at nearly being lynched, such a shock! *Gasp!*
Seriously, though, it doesn't bother me. People wanna lynch me, their choice. If they feel it's right then I can do but give what I've got and hope people listen to it, whether I'm alive or dead.
An aside, I'm still wondering why and who would benefit from Nacho being dead. Been busy with naval stuff (got too much crap to try to memorize) and other responsibilities so once I get back tonight (if I'm not too hammered) or tomorrow when I wake up (in case I do get too hammered) I'm going to read through this thread again, starting over with my reads.

Off to shower and get ready.

[Mute]

welp... that was a colossal failure. talk about a sausage fest...

EBWOP:

@Mute

If you started simply answering questions and fessing up, it would actually win a lot of points with me. At this point, we have plenty of time to discuss a new target and build a case for a lynch against them. The problem I have is that every single post you make just makes you look more scummy to me, and I cannot ignore that.

Dawg, recognize that the times I have answered you you were hardly ever satisfied with my answers. This is a bit put-offish from my POV. Why should I answer a question posed by you if I know you won't like it and criticize it, why would I willingly bring myself into another argument with you?

Regarding my putting myself into L-1: Was hoping to draw out scum to quick-hammer me, or at the very least have something more to go on that just you, sundy, plague, and neuky respond to it. =|

Going to go back and re-read with a new mindset, and hunting tools so to speak.
And for the last time

no dawg, it is not a matter of will not it is a matter of can not explain why I got a waxy feeling from plague. Have you ever even heard that term used before? Neither have I. This is the fitting term I feel for what vibe I get from plague.

[Mute]

1) Responding to prod.
2) Yeah I've been tending somewhat to my other game(s).
3) Have a book to memorize for navy stuff so that's been up on the top of my to-do list.
4) Had to distance myself from this game to better read through it.

Expect something up tomorrow.
Quickie note though from looking up. @Sundy: I've two votes on me, 4 required to lynch. That's not much pressure, really.

[Mute]

Plague please make that micro-text readable. It's up to the moderator's discretion but rule 7 comes into mind.
And yes I hope it will be substantial as well. I'll be doing a page-by-page analysis instead of an individual review of players.. which is to say I'll be reviewing everyone from page to page.

[Mute]

I only raise the point because I'm not gonna strain my eyes by squinting to try and read that.

[Mute]

I can read it.

You've eyes more diligent than I.
Sorry, it's not just within the confines of this game, a personal thing with you plague, or anyone else, I hate micro-text. I do other things that require me to over-focus my eyesight, so I don't need any unneeded strain on them to further the process of my eyesight going with old age.

[Mute]

Hi.
Had the flu the past few days thanks to the sudden shift from bluh bluh 20 degrees to the now 60 degree wonderfulness of today and yester. been wondering how best to approach this asinine idea o'mine and a thought occured.
I might be crazy in suggesting this and can easily not as it's yet done but give an oral presentation instead of a text one for my page-by-page thing. Would you guys would like that? I really don't feel like typing much in ways of walls.

-sees vote count along with prod-
Oh hey Sundy.
Yeah, I still say I'm not worried about being lynched. I only have anything to lose if the sole scum eliminates you all.
Oh hey the replacement for useless Naben posted stuff, and voted Ty. Cool. Hey we are finally getting content from a slot that thus far has done abso-****ing-lutely nothing this game. Why aren't the few posts of his being examined? Why is the lack of any real town-guided posts called into question?

[Mute]

An oral presentation? Like a Youtube video or something? That might revolutionize Mafiascum.

PS guys, physics is hard!!

I don't have any video making software. If I could just upload an audio file to Utube then sure. Otherwise I had wanted to use something like mediafire.

[Mute]

Sorry guys, having issues with the software. It likes to erase anything I say. =|
Looking into getting something not a POS. Friend recommended something called Audacity.

[Mute]

That is a ridiculous and silly question plague. PC.

[Mute]

Dead men tell no tales.

[Mute]

Dead men tell no tales.

[Mute]

JESUS CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE SLOW MY GOD I WAS ABLE TO ENTER AND WIN TO COMPLETION ANOTHER NEWBIE GAME WITH A PERFECT SCUM WIN OH WAIT TOWN LOST THIS GAME FUCK WHY DID YOU DO THAT DAWG OMGUS

VOTE WORKDAWG

JUST WOW WHY DID THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN!!!!!!!

Drench can attest to my rage at this game's drawn out conclusion.

[Mute]

Now for a real post.
Dawg: MY LORD BELOW I apologize for that intense battle we had back in this game.
Plague & Neuky: you two know what you're doing.
Ty/Concerned and Stels: Same as above and excellent job with teaching the newbies.
Sundy(/whomever it was you replaced in for): Great win.
Naben/Sordros: posts or gtfo. No seriously, Naben, you completely flaking is and was irresponsible. If I ever get a chance to mod a game I will not allow you in, just so you know. (Hell I doubt you're even reading this.) Sordros you fell victim to that same disinterest but at least you posted, so I'll acknowledge that.
(BTW: I wasn't anywhere near ready to defend the wagon against me when you hammered.)
Nacho: No comments, really. You know your thing about the game, and taught well.
Drench: That prod-post you made using the then-alive players was, hands down, the

single greatest post this game, bar none

. Very good mod you were and I'd happily play under you again if you'd allow it. (But next time please dead QT so I don't have to shout in your ears metaphorically speaking. =x)

That's all she wro--
Oh yeah. That table nonsense.
That's exactly what it was, nonsense. I wanted to have something so shitty and bad that it's just kill scum not to want to attack it, as it was just too obvious a bad argument to make. Hence, why I hammered you stels. Your reaction was the worst to it. (Granted this is coming purely from gut, so I can't explain it other than that.)

[Mute]

Loool I was RB'd twice. o-o