A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: Percy

Busted.

Raise: Locke Lamora

[Locke Lamora]

Unvote; Vote: DGB

I'm not seeing the usual aggressive scumhunting/unfounded declarations in the vein of 'x is town and y is scum' that I expect from a pro-town DGB. The LMP vote is weak and hasn't been followed up on, which makes me doubt how scummy DGB found either of the things she based it on.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry, why are so many people calling DGB town? Did I miss something? There's a genuine absence of scumhunting intent there.

Magua: do you think Benmage's VI policy/DGB treating it as a towntell is scummy, or do you simply disagree with both of them? Why would hascow fake a post restriction as town?

[Locke Lamora]

Unvote; Vote: Mikujin

I'm with Grey on this one. The unnecessary level of apologising in that excuse looks like scum trying too hard to explain absence.

Diddin also makes my scumlist for looking like he's more interested in point-scoring than scumhunting. Given the inconsistency over the VI comment, I'd also like to hear exactly what Song of Ice and Fire liked about Benmage's posts (the parts she understood, at any rate).

[Locke Lamora]

Zoraster: I explained my suspicion of DGB. There was a lot more focus on repeating that self-raising is stupid than there was on finding scum. All that came in response is a bunch of inane town/scum lists which still seem to be lacking the drive to pressure suspects and several people saying 'DGB is obvtown'. I'm still not convinced by DGB's play but apparently half the players here are just going to mindlessly call her town and move on, so while my vote is elsewhere, the suspicion's still there.

Mikujin's brief catchup posts have been entirely underwhelming and, as it seems Grey has noticed, his reason for not voting seems contradictory to his previous post. Not only that, but if anyone can read through 14 pages and not find a good reason to vote anyone, it suggests scumhunting is hard work, which is often a good indicator of scum.

Mikujin just about keeps my vote off Bunnylover, who has thus far displayed a similar lack of instinct to go after scum and apparently is just going to make jokes for most of the game.

The thing that I've been thinking about Hascow's restriction is it's not like Ilyn Payne is going to get his ability to speak back. I was in the Wire Mafia when Jebus, as scum, faked a post restriction early on in the game where he could only post pictures, then later regained his ability to speak - I believe the plan was to pretend he was drunk D1 (it didn't work, but the point is I've seen scum try it with the potential for it to be later removed). I don't see that happening with Payne, so either town-Cow is going to have to play like this for the whole game, or scum-Cow is going to have to fake it for the whole game as, let's be honest, if he comes out tomorrow and says 'oh I was given the ability to speak again!' then he's just going to get lynched.

[Locke Lamora]

Well, playing 'rather reserved' means it's hard to get a read on you, because you're not really taking a stance on much, and it slows down the game, because you don't get much interesting information if people are saying 'I don't like this post...but I don't really feel like voting for anyone yet'. As for rushing in hastily and rash decisions, has anyone even got more than 4 votes at any point in this game? You might think 10 days is a long time, but the weekends are always slow and there are a whole lot of scattered votes/non-voters right now. The longer it takes people to take a stance, the closer we get to deadline with no real indication of who the major lynch candidates are going to be, and then we end up needing a late, quickly-built wagon, which can cause all sorts of problems. So that's what I think is wrong with playing 'rather reserved'.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm tired of people talking about the governor ability. Let's lynch Mikujin. I get the feeling her DGB votes are more based on the idea that DGB is being stupid than DGB is being scummy. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of conviction that DGB is actually scum.

[Locke Lamora]

I've been struggling for time (for what should be obvious reasons) so I'll get to this in detail tonight.

[Locke Lamora]

Right, my main thoughts on reading through the last few pages:

I'm tired of people talking about the governor ability. Let's lynch Mikujin. I get the feeling her DGB votes are more based on the idea that DGB is being stupid than DGB is being scummy. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of conviction that DGB is actually scum.

Would you characterize Miku’s vote as similar to your lacklustre push on DGB as scum? Do you still think she (or her slot, pending outcome) is scum?

No. I would characterise Miku's vote as based on 'unacceptable' rather than scummy behaviour from DGB. Miku later said it was scummy, but didn't really explain how, and then indicated his lack of genuine interest in the issue by not reading the mod's note on the restriction properly. The whole thing looked like a struggle to even pull up a reason to call someone scummy. You can call my push on DGB lacklustre, and you obviously don't agree with it, but I was quite clear about what I found scummy. I also think that Miku's DGB 'case' on this subject is about the only attempt at scumhunting in his entire ISO, and that's why my vote's staying where it is.

Agree with MoI on the topic of the Xvart votes after Grey's case. It reads to me like Grey genuinely misunderstood Xvart's post after going back to look at it, but Raivann basically just said 'oh yeah, great case' and hopped on the wagon, exhibiting no actual interest in genuinely exploring the case or even indicating that he understood what it was. Xtoxm's is more ambiguous, but likely to be largely based on the same 'tell', while Dana's 'major scumtell' comment demonstrates a similar level of interest in Grey's case to Raivann, but also indicates that Dana hadn't even been paying attention to the same page, where more than one person had pointed out that Grey's case misrepped Xvart. For that reason I think it's more likely that Raivann is scum trying to sheep an easy case.

Zoraster: why do you think Mikujin is genuine in his caution? Is that gut, or have you picked up on something else? Do you think that Mikujin's approach to scumhunting makes him likely to be town?

[Locke Lamora]

@LL-
Thoughts on anything other than Mikujin? (Rehashing MoI on xvart-"tell" is fine, anything else?)

Yeah, I'm interested to know why you think I'm a more capable scum player than Zoraster.

[Locke Lamora]

I would like Mikujin vigged, but I don't think there's enough support there, so Raivann is good for that awful support of Grey's case. I'd rather it gets done in the next 48 hours if Cow is going to use it, though.

Unvote: Vote: Raivann

Kast: your case is reliant on a small part of my town meta, in a game that we played quite a long time ago. Have you read my more recent town or scum games?

MoI: do you think Cow offering it up unbidden and getting it to be voted on is more likely to be a scum move?

[Locke Lamora]

Townly
GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight
Chesskid
Feysal
Zoraster

Scummy
Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

My guess is there is a stark on these lists, possible one on each.

Unvote
Vote: Zoraster

Unvote; Vote: Mikujin

Especially because Xtoxm included Mikujin on that list only a few posts after both Grey and myself had called Miku out for his 'reserved' play.

[Locke Lamora]

I am sad that Zoraster has been on-site to post in other games, but hasn't posted here.

I am sad that every single one of Twilight Sparkle's heads have been on-site, two of the three posting in other games, but haven't posted here.

UNVOTE: diddin
VOTE: Zoraster

I think this is not only pointless and unhelpful, it's also information that's pretty much always taken out of context, as Zoraster has pointed out. Also, is 'sad' an indicator that you find it scummy?

Kast: all of my games are in my wiki. In response to your reasoning for your original vote, I would say that me joining an early-game wagon with little prior investigation has been a feature of a number of my recent town games; I can remember off the top of my head that I did it on the RC wagon in Zachtown in the mountains.

Thor: why did you clarify that as a 'totally serious vote'?

[Locke Lamora]

Magua: I would say I find Zoraster slightly scummy. I feel like for the amount he's posted, he hasn't done as much scumhunting as I would expect. The Mikujin post you linked to I obviously disagree with, particularly as he later claims that I've put minimal effort into scumhunting and uses it as a point against me, when for some reason Mikujin, who had done very little (apparently this is called 'playing rather reserved'), gets called town. I don't believe he ever actually answered my question about this. That said, I do get a townier vibe from the way he's approached the game in general; he's obviously not trying to stay under the radar and he is providing reads and making cases, even if I don't agree with some of them.

On the subject of you bringing up Zoraster/TS's lack of posting, did you not think the statement followed by the vote inherently implies scumminess? You claim you think it's better to say what you think, so why not include another sentence to explain that you don't think it's scummy and that you are only voting Zoraster for reasons stated previously? This seems inconsistent to me.

Thor: I thought the fact that you made that vote on page 32 was enough to indicate the 'totally serious' aspect. Did you think we might think you were joking?

[Locke Lamora]

Hi all, just checking in quickly to say

I am V/LA until Sunday night.

[Locke Lamora]

I am willing to accept that because of the flavour that LL is cleared (my own knowledge of flavour is minimal, so I really am trusting others here)

Is it hard to use Google?

DGB's attitude towards me strikes me as lazy and nonsensical. I don't understand why it took xvart pointing out that Zoraster's claim made me likely town for her to decide she needs to 'downgrade her suspicion'. After Zoraster's claim, DGB should either have:
a) already decided that I'm less likely to be scum and lessened her scumread on me before xvart asked the question
or
b) stuck to her guns and argued that Zoraster being third-party has no bearing on my alignment and she is maintaining the same level of suspicion.

I would therefore like an explanation as to why xvart's question prompted her to respond in that way.

I will have lots of time tomorrow to get updated on everything and reread in light of the flips.

[Locke Lamora]

Looking at diddin in ISO, his attitude towards both DGB and Raivann is interesting. He starts the game saying DGB is town. Note his first post where he raises DGB on the basis of being a strong townread and tentatively enquires whether any other players feel this way: 'don't know about anybody else'. He later admits this is pretty much gut. He seems to downgrade DGB slightly in relation to Benmage, then he suggests that DGB wanting to vig GreyICE despite thinking he's town is a bad thing, but never seems to expand on whether he thinks this is scummy or not, just that Benmage's VI strategy makes more sense. then after DGB has been trying to get Hascow to break his restriction, he makes this comment:

Speaking of which I find DGB's suspicion of has to be a little odd. I understand how he could be scum based on the "things he can and can's say" argument, but I find her push to get has to break his PR to be scummy for reasons others have stated.

This strikes me as a bit of a lazy comment that's following the prevailing mood without really looking into DGB's play at all. This reflects the overall lack of substance in his comments about DGB's play, despite the fact he mentions her several times. I could see DGB as diddin's buddy, going from the early attempt to suggest her as a raise candidate and transferring into later calling her scummy when it seems convenient without really pushing it any further.

On Raivann:
Contrary to what I think some people have indicated, diddin's Raivann vote isn't much of an indicator about Raivann's alignment, due to the fact that diddin is one of the leading wagons at the time. Shortly after Raivann votes Zoraster, which is about when the Zoraster wagon starts to gain steam, he states that he likes Zoraster as a Raivann buddy but that he'd rather lynch Raivann first; not sure whether a buddy would be so likely to say this, although I guess it would make sense from the perspective of having an easy candidate to fall back on once Raivann was lynched, and in the event that Zoraster is lynched first, this 'link' is then removed, giving diddin an excuse to drop the Raivann suspicion. I would say diddin also makes a real point of wanting to lynch Raivann first, which pings my scumdar. His later attack on Bunny which is coupled with a downgrading of the Raivann suspicion gives me a worse impression of the Raivann slot, as it really looks like diddin's already thinking about who to set up for D2's lynch and he uses Bunny's poor posting to basically drop his 'favoured' candidate way down his scumlist in the space of a few lines. I would say that diddin's approach to Raivann overall gives me a scummier read on that slot.

More to come later.

[Locke Lamora]

More thoughts on reading back:

xvart's push on diddin seems very genuine and well-considered, so he's strongly on my non-Stark list.

Twilight Sparkle's post has encouraged me to look back at Thor's ISO, which is actually quite amazing. He's managed to look like he's posting a decent amount of content without having read over 20 pages of the game or actually analysing anyone's play other than his own for most of it. As far as I can tell, the majority of the recent posts have been bickering with Magua/Magna/Benmage/TS over various points made against him. For this spectacular lack of scumhunting, combined with the fact that he's obviously more concerned with appearing as though he is doing something than he is with catching up with the game, I will:

Vote: Thor665

Nexus: what makes you think Bunnylover is scummy rather than a VI?

[Locke Lamora]

Let me put it like this: you have spent far more time rebutting points made against you and your cases (whether you think that those points are scummy or not, it's still all focused on you) than you have looking at the play of others independent to your own, whether in the present or through reading back. Isn't most of your MoI suspicion based on apparently flawed points he made against you? Would you agree that you've spent far more time defending yourself than you have actively looking for scum?

[Locke Lamora]

Well, I'd rather that you had read up, but offered the choice between the two, I'd rather you were familiar with more of the game and posted less right now than trading shots with the likes of Magna and Benmage - as, let's face it, you could do that all day, and it's not going to tell us much about your or their alignment. What bothers me is that there's this whole portion of the game you haven't even read, let alone commented on, and that in turn leads to the absence of the 'backlog of awareness' you refer to. Without that, we can't infer anything from your actions in relation to anything players said or did on those pages, and if we do, you can say 'oh, I haven't read it yet', which is not an excuse any player should have let alone for that large a portion of a game. What if you're town and you're missing several contributions from someone that would completely change your read on them? What if you're scum and your buddies did a couple of things that you think are really scummy, so by not reading the game you're not having to comment (or avoid commenting)?

Finally, I don't see every post you're making to be all about getting reactions in order to scumhunt. There's one where you explain your sarcasm in a bit more detail, for instance. Have you worked out anything about Benmage's alignment by pointing out flaws in his case against you? Have you got a read on Twilight Sparkle by rewriting that portion of their post? If so, I don't see the evidence of it. Maybe this is just because you're spending a lot of time defending yourself, but one of the main reasons you're doing that is because you haven't read all those pages in the first place.

[Locke Lamora]

Twilight Sparkle is town.

DrippingGoofball is scum. Are you ever actually going to clarify why you downgraded your suspicion of me at the point you did and not after Zoraster's claim and flip?

[Locke Lamora]

DrippingGoofball is scum. Are you ever actually going to clarify why you downgraded your suspicion of me at the point you did and not after Zoraster's claim and flip?

I failed to put two and two together.

In the sense that you didn't understand what Zoraster's info meant for my alignment?

Please explain the bolded again. Diddin was Town (Sandor Clegane) in that game. Your teammates were Maclock, danakillsu, and I doubt it.

I misplaced diddin for I doubt it as the other member of my team.

Was diddin being part of your team nothing to do with your earlier point about the diddin-Raivann interactions?

Ghostlin: I'm attacking DGB because if I'm really a genuine top suspect as she's been indicating all game, she should be paying a hell of a lot more attention to crucial events that have an impact on my alignment. My read is that her scumread on me is incredibly disingenuous and that's why she paid very little attention to the implication of Zoraster's claim. Do you not think it's inconsistent that she keeps me on her scumlist until someone else points out that me being scum makes very little sense? Also, I think there's a self-evident contradiction between you complaining I'm not making enough cases in a post where all you do is tell me and DGB we should try harder. Have you got a case on DGB or myself, or are you just trying to gain towncred?

[Locke Lamora]

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

The more I read this, the less I understand why you have mentioned zoraster here. What has zoraster got to do with anything? The implication of this is that DGB is scummy because she's voting for someone who you believed was more likely to be town than someone else - have I got that right?

Bunnylover: do you think LMP is scummy after his last post?

TS: Zdenek already said that he has pretty much accepted me as cleared (albeit with a willingness to rely on the flavour knowledge of others that concerned me slightly).

[Locke Lamora]

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

The more I read this, the less I understand why you have mentioned zoraster here. What has zoraster got to do with anything? The implication of this is that DGB is scummy because she's voting for someone who you believed was more likely to be town than someone else - have I got that right?

DGB was scummy for not voting who she was pushing. She had suspected you all day, but she only voted you after Kast and zoraster had started a wagon on you. In addition, I could not see her having any reason to suspect you. And no, zoraster has nothing to do with that... he had just stuck in my mind with you since I'd read both of your posts in context, which is where I got my initial reads on you from.

Well, I certainly agree with the first point (in fact I still don't know why I was in the obv-scum category of every DGB scumlist yesterday), but doesn't the phrasing imply that choosing me over zoraster somehow has more relevance here? I get that you think I'm town at this point, which in itself still wasn't a great reason to suspect DGB, but the way you stated it suggested that there was a Locke-zoraster choice to make, and DGB chose the person who wasn't scum.

LMP: I think I might see where you're going here, but can you elaborate on your thoughts when you saw Feysal's reaction to the Chesskid kill?

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: Feysal

Nominate: Bunnylover

I found myself agreeing with a lot of TS's case, but I find LMP's Feysal case more compelling, and the more I return to the post where he talks about me, DGB and zoraster and his subsequent attempts to explain it, the more inconsistent and forced it seems. The Xtoxm catch is also a good one, demonstrating Feysal's contradictory thought processes. Bunnylover's defence of Feysal and concurrent hop on the Zdenek wagon is...well, let's just say I know where I'm looking if Feysal flips scum.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm not a fan of Feysal talking about how stupid LMP is going to look when he flips; I think it's a sign of the survival instinct coming out. I'm also really not getting why zoraster made an appearance in that quote he and LMP keep fighting about. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just seems off; he's admitted zoraster had nothing to do with the situation and he was just thinking about him, but why is that sentence there at all? The case makes sense without it; it's as though he wanted zoraster to look bad in conjunction with DGB.

Bunnylover: the logic for scum is that TS made a very detailed case on Zdenek and you saw an opportunity to hop on. I'm not saying you are scum with Feysal, but it's certainly worth a look if Feysal flips scum. I wouldn't think you'd be worrying about this unless you were scum with him anyway, though, so thanks for reinforcing my read.

[Locke Lamora]

Where's nexus? He's plenty active in the game he's nodding that I'm in.

I really, really dislike this. 'Plenty active' constitutes Nexus fulfilling his normal modding duties with what, two posts? This is lazy, lacks context and indicates that you're just interested in trying to make Nexus look scummy. I am very tempted to vote you after this.

[Locke Lamora]

To clarify definitions for you LL, "plenty active" refers to posting fairly lengthy death flavor 45 min after the hammer. The speed made me feel he should be able to be posting here.

I'm fine with his response. I hadn't considered that possibility and it makes sense.

You hadn't considered the possibility that he had time to write 'lengthy' (I checked, it's 125 words) flavour but not to read the couple of hundred posts that had passed since he last visited the thread? Really?

[Locke Lamora]

Still don't like Setael's snipe at Nexus' posting habits, but that question to Feysal is right on the money. I was already pretty sold on Feysal-scum before that, but now I find it hard to see how those two statements could match up.

In other news, I can't decide whether DGB is scum or just playing badly. Perhaps that's the point.

[Locke Lamora]

Does your role PM say both names? What's your flavour for voyeur?

[Locke Lamora]

Hey Shadow, have you thought about not being 'intimidated' and doing some scumhunting?

[Locke Lamora]

Re:

The fakeclaim

.

I think it's suspicious that now both Zoraster and Feysal have used Littlefinger in their claim. I can't see Littlefinger being Lannister aligned, but to be fair, that's mod WIFOM. More suspicious about the two different people using Littlefinger in their claim.

Twilight:"At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role." That's a pretty scummy sentence. Any town PR is valuable. I still don't believe Feysal is telling the truth, but just highlighting this attitude.

Scumslip, Nexus?

Unvote

while I think about this.

[Locke Lamora]

I think at this point (as I've thought all along) Feysal's pretty town. His claimed night action DOES in fact line up with town motivations, since even if scum had killed Benmage, he would have just found that scum killed Benmage.

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

But wasn't Benmage the obvious protection target? I think he would have been more likely to confirm a town PR through that protection than through fairly randomly selecting a potential investigation target, which is what he did. I think Kast is a more likely pick for a player who nothing would happen to, not a townie carefully weighing up his best options for how to confirm a town PR. That's enough for me to:

Vote: Feysal

[Locke Lamora]

Feysal: what's more useful, a result that a target was 'killed' and 'protected' or a result that a target was 'investigated'?

[Locke Lamora]

Why is knowing a target was investigated more useful when you have no idea of the nature of the investigation or even whether it succeeded? Case in point: I was Littlefinger in the last game and my first night result on Kinetic/diddin told me he was Sandor Clegane; I thought he was possible scum because the Lannisters were scum in that game, but I was by no means sure, so I didn't come out crazy-pushing a diddin case, even though I called him scum a few times. As it turns out, he was town. Why do you think it's more likely that you would select a target who was investigated? To me, that seems like a lot more of a shot in the dark than picking a townread who was likely to be a kill target.

[Locke Lamora]

Actually, we now have less than 36 hours to deadline. I assume Thor's making a point rather than seriously thinking he's going to build a wagon from scratch in a day and a half.

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: Shadow1psc

Discuss.

[Locke Lamora]

Read post 1732.

[Locke Lamora]

Agree that Zdenek can wait for later.

TS is obviously keen to keep me on their suspect list to bring up later for some reason, one which I have yet to fathom out. Any reason for that one, TS?

A remarkably scummy post following:

@Kast - I hate that Raivann keeps getting a free pass, but if you're claiming you've got Zdenek dead to rights, and TS (who looks even more town now) has built their solid case around him, I'm pretty inclined to believe that is a great direction to take. If it takes pressure to get it out of him, I'll be glad to help;

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zdenek

Raivann is going to lay low some more and not contribute I'm sure. I'm a little more wary of LMP based on the number of kills remaining consistent; We also have not seen the revelation of a third faction yet, something I find interesting considering 3 stark flips. I maintain LMP could have easily claimed vig to cover his tracks shooting Chess, and claimed jailed (why would this even be pertinent if you were one shot anyway/would you be notified if you were jailed...?) and have someone else send the NK (as scum). Could have been jailed as SK, the only reason to have mentioned being the target of the now dead jailer was if he had attempted to shoot someone and it got stopped (but claimed out of shots to us). SK seems like the more unlikely choice.

Anyway, on the topic of Zdenek, name claiming, then saying "I'm not gonna claim my power, it's anti-town" is ass, and anti-town in itself. If we hit discussion limit deadline, you get nkilled, and you were at a table with scum, that would destroy anything you worked for. If someone has evidence v. you (and a staggeringly huge case), you best come forward, with your information, and be believable.

p-edit: well then. That's... weird.

First off, this vote looks like a blatant attempt to seize an opportunity for an easy lynch on someone he knows isn't scum; he doesn't even wait to see how Kast's result plays out, he just drops his top suspect and votes for Zdenek whilst acting like it's a real wrench to not lynch Raivann. He doesn't even commit to calling Zdenek scum, he puts the vote down to pressuring more info out of him (which he hasn't removed since Zdenek claimed more info). Then he continues his crusade to push LMP-scum based on the CK kill. If he genuinely didn't believe that LMP was vig then he'd be trying to lynch LMP first, not Raivann. Instead he's just trying to cast doubt on LMP's claim at every available opportunity but parking his vote on easier wagons. His reaction to Zdenek's more detailed claim is notable for its lack of thrust; he's spending his time arguing what the pro-town approach would be, but he's not calling Zdenek obv-scum or even stating whether he actually thinks Zdenek is scum or town that played the role badly. Then we get this gem:

I am Tywin Lannister. I become night kill immune if Tyrion Lannister dies.

a.) why weren't you pushing a chesskid lynch d1

b.) why did you wait on claiming this

c.)

Point a) He was

also town

, possibly town power.
Point b) Valid. I'd like to know, you'd be untouchable.
Point c) lawl.

If anything, you should have hinted at this harder day 2, or outright said it, if not breadcrumbed something along the lines of "CK is totally town" after his name claim.

"Also town"?! So Shadow thinks Zdenek is town...but he still has his vote parked there. Then there's the fact that Shadow really shouldnt be answering this for Zdenek; it's more like 'hey, I can think of a pro-town reason for that, give me townpoints'! It completely contradicts his original stated motive of voting Zdenek to pressure more info out of him. In fact, everything Shadow's said to or about Zdenek since he claimed indicates he doesn't really think he's scum.

[Locke Lamora]

What? Are you seriously dropping one of your top suspects because he's claimed a character who is on the Lannister side? Really?

[Locke Lamora]

You have heard of mod-provided fakeclaims, right? The whole point is that they're plausible town characters. If you think Raivann is scum then him claiming VT with a character who you think flavour-wise matches the Lannisters, it should have no bearing on your read whatsoever. It's different if he claims verifiable actions that back up his claim, but as he's a) VT and b) been blocked both nights, I don't think anything in your read should be changing. Personally, I'm not sold on Raivann-scum because he just seems to play so badly all the time. If he is scum, he's mindblowingly bad at learning from his mistakes because he's just reeling off a string of hypocritical votes and opportunistic suspect changes that he would know are going to get him lynched.

[Locke Lamora]

Agree that Zdenek can wait for later.

TS is obviously keen to keep me on their suspect list to bring up later for some reason, one which I have yet to fathom out. Any reason for that one, TS?

A remarkably scummy post following:

@Kast - I hate that Raivann keeps getting a free pass, but if you're claiming you've got Zdenek dead to rights, and TS (who looks even more town now) has built their solid case around him, I'm pretty inclined to believe that is a great direction to take. If it takes pressure to get it out of him, I'll be glad to help;

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zdenek

Raivann is going to lay low some more and not contribute I'm sure. I'm a little more wary of LMP based on the number of kills remaining consistent; We also have not seen the revelation of a third faction yet, something I find interesting considering 3 stark flips. I maintain LMP could have easily claimed vig to cover his tracks shooting Chess, and claimed jailed (why would this even be pertinent if you were one shot anyway/would you be notified if you were jailed...?) and have someone else send the NK (as scum). Could have been jailed as SK, the only reason to have mentioned being the target of the now dead jailer was if he had attempted to shoot someone and it got stopped (but claimed out of shots to us). SK seems like the more unlikely choice.

Anyway, on the topic of Zdenek, name claiming, then saying "I'm not gonna claim my power, it's anti-town" is ass, and anti-town in itself. If we hit discussion limit deadline, you get nkilled, and you were at a table with scum, that would destroy anything you worked for. If someone has evidence v. you (and a staggeringly huge case), you best come forward, with your information, and be believable.

p-edit: well then. That's... weird.

First off, this vote looks like a blatant attempt to seize an opportunity for an easy lynch on someone he knows isn't scum; he doesn't even wait to see how Kast's result plays out, he just drops his top suspect and votes for Zdenek whilst acting like it's a real wrench to not lynch Raivann. He doesn't even commit to calling Zdenek scum, he puts the vote down to pressuring more info out of him (which he hasn't removed since Zdenek claimed more info).

*

Then he continues his crusade to push LMP-scum based on the CK kill. If he genuinely didn't believe that LMP was vig then he'd be trying to lynch LMP first, not Raivann. Instead he's just trying to cast doubt on LMP's claim at every available opportunity but parking his vote on easier wagons. His reaction to Zdenek's more detailed claim is notable for its lack of thrust; he's spending his time arguing what the pro-town approach would be, but he's not calling Zdenek obv-scum or even stating whether he actually thinks Zdenek is scum or town that played the role badly.

** Then we get this gem:

I am Tywin Lannister. I become night kill immune if Tyrion Lannister dies.

a.) why weren't you pushing a chesskid lynch d1

b.) why did you wait on claiming this

c.)

Point a) He was

also town

, possibly town power.
Point b) Valid. I'd like to know, you'd be untouchable.
Point c) lawl.

If anything, you should have hinted at this harder day 2, or outright said it, if not breadcrumbed something along the lines of "CK is totally town" after his name claim.

"Also town"?! So Shadow thinks Zdenek is town

***...but he still has his vote parked there. Then there's the fact that Shadow really shouldnt be answering this for Zdenek; it's more like 'hey, I can think of a pro-town reason for that, give me townpoints'! It completely contradicts his original stated motive of voting Zdenek to pressure more info out of him. In fact, everything Shadow's said to or about Zdenek since he claimed indicates he doesn't really think he's scum.

Alright, lets break this down LL:

*

It was a blatant attempt to press information out of someone who said "I'm not gonna claim, its anti-town", when Kast claimed damning information on him. I've expressed several times why I keep having to move off Raivann (who I sat on d2, despite benmage, and will be switching back to in a sec).

**

I didn't realize discussion concerning LMP was out of the question. I don't have a definitive position on him, a one-shot vig claim is something that will sort itself out if he's scum. I'm of the belief Zdenek played the role badly, yes, which brings us to...

***

This is either bad reading comprehension or misrepresentation at its finest; the 'also' qualifier is in no way an indication of my read on Zdenek. That was myself pointing out to TP that Zdenek shouldn't have been trying to lynch Chess, as it should have been inferred he was tyrion, who as it also turns out, was town. So that's not also as in, 'too', lets try this LL:

TS: You should have been trying to lynch CK
Shadow: He was also town, ya know.

Implying, he certainly could have been town and it's easy to infer Tyrion is Lannister aligned, and no one should have been pushing that lynch.

Finally, yes,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Raivann

The wagon actually has steam, I've made my repeated case on this and why he needs to go.

To use your star system:

*Right, but my point was that after he claimed his information, you didn't do anything. You left your vote sitting there waiting to see what would happen. If a couple more people had voted for Zdenek after not buying the claim, I get the impression you wouldn't have moved. Now you have, but it's quite apparent now that Zdenek isn't the preferred lynch.

**Yes, LMP's claim will sort itself out, so I don't see the need for the speculation. It's not a discussion, you're just saying 'hey, you know that guy who claimed vig, he could be scum!' What discussion is there to be had? It's just casting unnecessary doubt about a claim that will, as you say, sort itself out if he's scum. Hence it's simply casting doubt on LMP for the sake of spreading uncertainty, which is scummy.

***Ok, I think I can see how your phrasing means what you say it means there, so I'll concede that. You didn't answer the point about why you're answering the question for him. Don't say 'it was an obvious answer', either. Just because it's an obvious answer to you doesn't mean he's going to give the same one, and if he'd answered something different it might have displayed a non-town thought process. For you to answer the question for him displays a wanting-to-appear-town thought process.

[Locke Lamora]

Sounds like half the players have claimed to their QTs anyway.

Has anyone actually explained this hypocop thing properly? I feel like I should know why we're completely excluding some players before we decide who the scummiest/second scummiest are.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm Gregor Clegane, not Sandor, and I'm a VT.

[Locke Lamora]

Is it me, or has this game become progressively more uninteresting? I guess that's what happens when people agree they're just going to lynch from a list. Might as well get on with it.

Vote: Setael

[Locke Lamora]

Magua, how many Lannister VTs do you think there would be, based on the assumption that the Starks don't have any goons?

[Locke Lamora]

TS: right now I'd say Magua, Dana, Zdenek. To be perfectly honest I need to do some rereading and my motivation for this game has not been great ever since it turned into 'everyone claim and let's lynch from a list'.

As for the N4 kill, can anyone tell me why they think Nexus blocked Zdenek instead of the super obv-scum (and probably immune to night actions) Setael?

[Locke Lamora]

I know the ascetic bit means immune to night actions. It's the modified bit that I don't know what the meaning is. But yes, if I was Nexus and I absolutely knew Setael was scum, I think I'd probably be quite likely to block them.

[Locke Lamora]

It erodes Zdenek's 'I can't be SK because Nexus blocked me N4 argument', which as far as I can see is the main counter-argument. I thought the reasons for Zdenek being SK are that we know he's 'modified kill-immune' and Nexus blocked him on a night where there was only 1 kill. Neither of those will change. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I can't tell.

[Locke Lamora]

Was there another night that he was roleblocked and only one kill happened? Or just the one?

Just the one. Is there a point to this?

Magua: so you think Dana and TS are really VTs and I'm the lying one?

[Locke Lamora]

So I had a look back at ACoK to check the setup. There were 7 VTs there, with 2 PRs and two goons per scumteam. The split there was 17-4-4-1. Here you are suggesting it's 5 VTs and 5 scum, all with PRs, and I'm assuming you think Zdenek is the 5th and final Stark with some kind of kill immunity, so I guess your assumption is 17-5-1-1. As you said, 26 players in ACoK, 24 players here. What makes you think that a 2 VT drop on town's side would indicate a drop to 0 goons for scum in a team of only 5 players?

[Locke Lamora]

I asking because I'm wondering about a connection. Your rationale for clearing Dana is partly based on there not being any scum goons. This seems like a strange attitude to take, based on what we know about this setup and the previous setup. This partially concerns me because I think it's always dangerous to make an assumption that there are the lowest possible amount of scum - numbers are always more crucial than PRs, at the end of the day - and partially because I think that you're looking for an extra reason to call Dana town, which seems unnecessary. On the other side of the coin, there's something about Dana's 'let's lynch Magua' that seems very fake. It's based on very little for a vote this late in the game; it looks like he's trying to make a point that he's voting you, who's not as easy a lynch as Zdenek. Now, both of you are relatively close to the bottom of the lynch list that a lot of players are operating off. My hunch is that you're doing your best to make sure that there's enough to confuse the connections between you that if one of you is lynched, the other is not immediately connected as a buddy. That's why I was trying to find out why you thought there were only 5 scum and none of them VTs.

As for your complaint that I am trying to cast suspicion on anyone I can, you're basically complaining that I'm exercising independent thought in the face of massive consensus and very little real scumhunting. I've found this game frustrating and I think I've been very honest about that. I've had less time than I'd like and the cases I have pushed hard have either been ignored or shot down by people with very little reasoning. For example, my Shadow case was pretty much ignored (even Shadow only responded once and then ignored the majority of my points). The 'hypocop' stuff didn't help; I'm really not a fan of people saying 'x is town because of SECRET ROLE INFO' and then sitting on it for days. Then we got to the list stage and I've already made my views clear on that. Why do you think this aspect of my play is indicative of an SK?

[Locke Lamora]

I can actually relate to that Locke, the problem is there's confirmed towns running around who are going to take a very methodical direction to pegging the final scum. Logically, we had it narrowed down to very few choices and I wasn't one of them, nor even close. I'm not anywhere near confirmed, but I'm a little farther up on the scale ahead of people like Setael, suspected SKs, and people with nothing to show for actions so far, in what looks like a power heavy game.

Are you explaining why we shouldn't lynch you here? Why?

I'll wait for TS to actually finish their question before I answer it

Before we do anything, I think we should do a complete list of every role, both flipped and claimed, and make sure we consider it carefully. I remember several people in the dead thread pointing out that Macavitar's fakeclaim made no sense alongside the Kingsguard mechanic in ACoK, but no-one in-thread bothered to look back and fully consider the implications.

[Locke Lamora]

See,

that's

why this game is incredibly frustrating. Is Benmage really confirmed town? That was so monumentally anti-town it's hard to believe (thought you'd like that, Magua).

Magua: maybe. The interaction looked strange and disingenuous. That explanation fit. As for that Nexus post, it was a poor piece of reasoning that had no place in his read on Raivann. If it's scummy to tell people to stop using illogical reasoning then yes, I'm scummy. If it's scummy to challenge someone who claimed they had a scumread on Raivann and then dropped it for poor reasoning then yes, I'm scummy. What I was drilling into Nexus was the notion that he was dismissing his suspicion of Raivann based on flawed reasoning. This was either bad townie logic, which is not helpful to the town and should be stopped as early as possible, or scum trying to slide off a wagon based on weak reasoning, which should be challenged.

Think about your other points. Could Zdenek be SK? Yes. Could Dana be a goon? Yes. What is wrong with either of these theories? I wasn't annoyed that the Kettleblacks were cleared, I was annoyed that this game has degenerated into 'hey, let's lynch from a list'. TS has been saying 'LL could be SK' since D2. Shadow threw out the potential of LMP being scum on D3 (this is something I called him out on because I think it was immensely unproductive and clearly not a topic of discussion that was relevant at that stage). Do you think these players are scum? If not, why is what they have been doing different from my thinking 'you know what, it is possible that the scum do have a goon' or 'hey, remember when Zdenek got roleblocked and there was only one kill'?

And while I'm at it, what made you go from calling me confirmed town to obv-SK?

[Locke Lamora]

Magua: you do know my Benmage line was a joke, right?

Zdenek: you can drop that scumtell, you might as well just piggyback Magua.

Playing the 'Game of Thrones' (alive)

4) Locke Lamora - confirmed Gregor Clegane, claimed VT
5) Benmage -

Hand of the King

- confirmed Osfryd Kettleblack, Lannister Brother w/ Andrius + DGB
9) Danakillsu - claimed Kevan Lannister, VT
10) Hasdgfas - confirmed Ilyn Payne, Dayvig, shot Xtoxm D1
11) LynchMePls - claimed Qyburn, 1-shot CPR doc, killed Chesskid N1.
14) Shadow1psc - claimed Olenna Redwyne, Wedding Planner
15) Zdenek - claimed Tywin Lannister, confirmed Modified Kill-Immune by Kast
16) Magua - claimed Walder Frey, 1-shot vig, shot Diddin N1
18) Twilight Sparkle - claimed Loras Tyrell, VT
21)

GreyICE

DTMaster

popsofctown - confirmed Jaime Lannister, Friendly Knight

Praying with the seven (dead)

12)Xtoxm -

Catelyn Stark - Stark Neighbouriser

was killed day 1
17) Zoraster -

Oberyn Martell, Self Aligned lyncher

was lynched Day 1
1) Chesskid3 -

‘The Imp’ Tyrion Lannister, Lannister Aligned Townie

was killed Night 1
2) diddin -

Brynden Tully, Stark Aligned Tracker

was killed Night 1
23) Feysal -

Petyr Baelish, Lannister Aligned Voyeur

was lynched Day 2
8) xvart -

Joffrey Baratheon - Lannister Aligned Jack of Some trades

was killed night 2
7) MagnaofIllusion -

Edmure Tully - Stark Aligned Jailkeeper

was killed night 2
13) Raivann -

Randyll Tarly - Lannister Aligned Townie

was lynched day 3
24) Kast -

Varys - Lannister Aligned Rolename Cop

was killed Night 3
Thor665 -

Roose Bolton Lannister Aligned Townie

was defeated in combat day 4
Nexus -

Margaery Tyrell - Lannister Aligned Roleblocker

was killed night 4
Andrius -

Osney Kettleblack - Lannister Aligned Brother

killed night 4
Setael -

Robb Stark - Modified Ascetic Godfathe

r was lynched Day 5
Bunnylover -

Grandmaester Pycelle - Lannister Aligned Doctor

was killed night 5
DrippingGoofball -

Lannister Aligned Brother

was killed night 5

[Locke Lamora]

Looking at that, my first instinct is that dayvig, nightvig, CPR doc, doc, jack of some trades and kill-immune seem unlikely to all be on the same side.

[Locke Lamora]

Magua: you and/or Zdenek. I don't think LMP would claim that kill unprompted to bring the increased risk of drawing an SK/scum kill, so that alleviates most of the concern I have about the presence of that role. I believe it was Mikujin who got bitten last game by claiming a PR and getting taken out by the other scumteam.

Regarding your earlier post about my play trying to avoid attention, I really don't think that's true. Yep, my activity has not been great most of the game. That's my fault for taking on too much. I can see why you would think my absences might be indicative of trying to stay under the radar, but I've not been trying to avoid attention when I've made posts. The easiest thing to do would have been to follow along with all the hypocop results and claims and keep myself as far up the lynch list as possible when it got around to that.

Also, you think Zoraster was given a lynch target who was also NK-immune? Really?

Benmage: I think Nexus blocked Setael N4. You think that's implausible?

[Locke Lamora]

Magua: are we in a rush? Honestly, I'm still thinking about everything and I find Dana's interactions with the flipped Starks to be more like that of a buddy than yours, so I'm not 100% sold on you being scum. I do have a question: what's your quote for Walder Frey?

[Locke Lamora]

Magua: yes, I think Dana tunnelled on one member of the scumteam all game and ignored the rest. He actually goes out of his way to not downgrade his Setael suspicion - for instance, he agrees that he'd have a townread on Setael purely based on the catchup post, but he doesn't really change his level of suspicion to match that. Later he misreps Setael, admits it was a slight misrep but still keeps his vote parked there. If there was a hidden agenda here based on a PR result I could also see the motivation for that, but given that he's claiming VT, the refusal to budge from this stance looks like he's deliberately making a point. Once he reached the stage where he didn't use Setael's catchup as a reason to downgrade that suspicion, I don't see how he could have backed off without basically condemning himself when Setael died. Once Setael flips, of course he falls back on saying that no buddy would bus that hard, which would be the entire point if he was Setael's buddy.

As for why scum didn't kill me, I don't know. I made it quite obvious that I thought Mikujin was scum and after Zoraster's flip most people were treating me as confirmed town, so it's beyond me why they wouldn't try to kill me, particularly N1/N2.

Has anyone ever heard of giving a lyncher a target who can't be NKed? It seems to me like it'd increase the role's win chances by a significant amount. Also, read Zoraster's claim again:

all right, all right. so that apparently didn't work. I shall now claim my actual role for giggles. Once I claimed this, I was likely lynched but more importantly it would be harder to lynch LL.

I am Oberyn Martell, Self Aligned. I want to avenge Elia's death. I win when Gregor Clegane (Locke Lamora) is lynched and I am on that lynch. If he dies by anything other than a lynch with me on it and I'm alive, then I join the Lannister cause.

That's it. That's all the power I have.

Ta-da. If you want to lynch a potential town player who has every reason to play for the town, go for it.

So those who want me lynched are arguing that town gains an extra player if the SK gets killed. Does that make sense to you?

[Locke Lamora]

Only if he wasn't on the lynch. Otherwise I figure he'd have fulfilled his win condition and left the game.

[Locke Lamora]

Yes. I guess he could have been lying, but it's not uncommon for a lyncher to gain the town win condition if their target is otherwise killed and I don't see how he could actually have got me lynched after claiming, so I'm inclined to take his claim at face value.

[Locke Lamora]

Here's another question about me being SK: in a PR-heavy game, do you think that balance-wise it's also a good idea to put someone in the setup who wants to lynch the SK from the start of the game? I'm assuming you all understand how a SK has to play. They need to survive to the end. Throwing Zoraster in there with the goal of getting me lynched and then also requiring me to survive 22 other players, the large majority of who seem to be PRs, to win is just ludicrous. What would I have to do if I was SK? Survive 7 days? Maybe 8? To do that as a lyncher's target would be nigh-on impossible. It simply doesn't make sense. Not only that, but either you think I'm BP, in which case Zoraster's win chances go way, way up to the point of being unrealistic, or you don't think I'm BP, in which case my chances of winning the game as SK would have been practically zero from the start and everyone saying 'hey I bet mafia tried to kill Locke N1' is wrong. How do we know that the jack-of-some-trades didn't protect me N1? The below would certainly hint at that:

One of Twilight Sparkle and Mikujin are scum. I put my money on Mikujin.
One of these three is scum: Danakillsu, Locke Lamora, Thor665. I put my money on Locke Lamora.

Mikujin or Lock Lamora would make excellent lynches for today.

What say you to Zoraster being a lyncher? Do you think zoraster's target would be a scum member? I would lean believing that LL is town right now based on this information.

Finally, something has been bothering me. It's been bothering me all game but I couldn't decide whether it was scummy or not, probably because I was concerned I was being biased. And that something is this: TS has taken every opportunity to remind people that I could be the SK. Ever since Zoraster claimed his real role, that has been their line. I don't mean to say they've been shouting 'LL IS SK' all game. It's just that where most people were happy to say that a lyncher's target is pretty much likely to be town, TS was keen to keep that thread of doubt running. Now that has come to fruition because people actually think I might be the SK. To me, that speaks of a desire to keep suspect options open for future mislynches. The push now is quite clearly one of 'LL MUST be the SK, because what other possible explanation could there be'? This is reminiscent of Magna defending Macavitar in ACoK when he made it sound ridiculous that Mac could actually be scum after he'd been tracked to a kill. So, I'm going to finally put Magua out of his misery and:

Vote: Twilight Sparkle

Discuss.

[Locke Lamora]

TS: I'm inclined towards Stark. When I've got more time I'll demonstrate why.

[Locke Lamora]

TS's suspicions/interactions that just don't add up, particularly with MoI:

ISO 7 - Mina complains that MoI is padding out posts with IIoA and theory talk, play that really looks like MoI trying hard to appear town rather than actually being pro-town. This actually all seems like a well thought-out attack and makes some good points. Voteworthy, right? There's no vote. Mina says she's waiting for the other heads to weigh in, but the vote ultimately never finds its way to Magna. I find it incongruous that these accusations were made but there's no vote to back it up. This is compounded by..

ISO 16 - hito states a definitive read on MoI has not yet been reached, but attacks him for condescension to GreyICE. Then later in the post their vote gets moved to ASOIAF for raising Benmage without actually understanding the subject of his posts (VIs). So hito can move the vote, but Mina can't? At this stage it seems that the other ponies are in catch-up mode, so this vote must have been made without Mina and Sotty being completely informed on the game's events. The clear disparity between this vote and the refusal to vote in ISO 7 where Mina attacks MoI sets alarm bells ringing for me.

ISO 10-12 are just efforts to work out Cow's restriction. On the surface, this makes sense, but throughout the game TS has been displaying tendencies to do seemingly pro-town things (e.g. work out ways to understand Cow, the Morse code for the wedding) that entail no scumhunting whatsoever. See also the massive rant about Benmage governing Zdenek - yes, we're all annoyed, but spending that much time telling Benmage he's arrogant and anti-town does not give me a pro-town vibe. We all knew he had the potential to be both of those things when we signed up for the game.

ISO 19 and 21 both feature questions and doubts cast on MoI and Mikujin. Again, neither leads to a vote; TS actually warns Mikujin here that they don't like cautious voters, a slightly less hostile version of a snipe MoI makes at Xtoxm (which I'll return to later). ISO 22 again has doubts about MoI; this time because Benmage really doesn't seem like MoI's type of player and so the raise looks suspect. Sotty gives off the definite vibe that they think MoI is pretty likely scum, but again there's no vote.

ISO 24 TS asks Cow if he's a dayvig...then vanishes until after Cow has vigged Xtoxm. Pretty convenient. I also notice that in that period both Magua and dana ask for scumteam members to be vigged; meanwhile MoI and LMP say that Cow should use it as he sees fit and don't commit to asking for a vig target. Makes me feel a bit better about Magua and dana and a bit worse about LMP.

ISO 34 - part of hito's ISO spectacular. Couple of things that ping my scumdar here: firstly, they suggest that a Mikujin townflip would make Dana look bad because Dana makes a point of being consistent in his read. This seems remarkably uncritical and one-sided to me; TS claims to have a scum read on Mikujin and yet appears to make no consideration of Mikujin-Dana interactions based on if Mikujin flips scum. Second up is the main point I made when I voted; casting the doubt about me being SK. Now, this is the start of D2, so this could make sense to me from two perspectives: 1. TS is simply aware that townies are already becoming confirmed (e.g. Cow) and doesn't want this to reach the stage where scum are trapped by PoE, or 2. TS (or buddy) tried to shoot me, thinks I am bulletproof and therefore SK - this could be explained by an xvart-protect. Either way, it reveals a concern that is far more likely to be scum than town at a stage where there's absolutely no indication of this to any uninformed townie; the idea that there's another anti-town faction in the game to worry about.

ISO 46: Sotty weighs in and responds to MoI, who is challenging her questioning of his Benmage raise. Sotty now has a town-read on MoI, saying he sounds a lot more genuine. This becomes relevant in conjunction with:

ISO 70: Mina now has a massive response to MoI, which I won't bother to dissect - I know enough about both players to know that they could fake a wall-post argument for the duration of the game if they wanted to. At this point the argument is becoming virtually impenetrable to those who don't want to spend 90% of their time on MS reading it, which is one reason that I doubt how genuine all of these interactions are. The crux is that Mina has the opposite read on MoI (and Magua) to Sotty. So we've got Mina thinking MoI is scum, Sotty thinking MoI is town and hito happy to defer to their judgement. And guess what? After all of the counterpoints, all of the poring over the minutiae of Magna's posts, there's still no vote. Which, of course, is conveniently explained away by the other two heads not sharing the read. And to those who say the interactions don't look like bussing, look at Magna's ISO 13, where he puts up a pretty decent-sized case and a vote on diddin, or ISO 21, where he makes a snide comment to Xtoxm about him finally putting down a vote. Magna was quite happy to make his buddies look scummy on D1. I certainly don't think a drawn out Magna vs Mina argument is any reason at all to think that TS isn't scum.

ISO 114: TS finally starts 'warming up' to the case on Setael. Up to this point the read has been pretty much town since Setael replaced in, with the only doubt being why Setael unvoted Feysal, which TS again references here. Not much pressure being exerted on Setael at all at this stage.

ISO 129: says either Setael or Magua is scum, based on Xtoxm's posts.

ISO 139: Setael and dana are now TS's top two. I'm really having a hard time seeing much evolution of this read. Setael is the leading wagon (admittedly of only 3 people, but with the support of Benmage) at this stage. It's already becoming pretty obvious that whether through the duel or the next day's lynch, Setael is going to be dead, so TS is really just going with the flow at this stage. Point 5 of ISO 142 also has me suspicious; this looks more like 'hey, get some reads in so we can WIFOM it up!'

ISO 154 onwards: Zdenek's been governed and now I'm the SK. In ISO 147 me being SK is still semi-bastardly. As recently as ISO 149 TS is asking Zdenek whether he is mafia or SK. By the time we get to ISO 159, TS says 'can it be anyone but LL?' Incidentally, this is what I thought was reminiscent of MoI making it sound ridiculous that Mac could be scum in ACoK. Of course the serial killer could be someone other than me. Not that long ago TS thought it could be Zdenek or Magua. Suddenly I MUST be the SK? It's not a genuine thought process.

Finally, I just get the impression that TS is obsessed with the SK. From the open letter to the SK to the seeds of doubt planted on me, TS is SK-hunting. I'm sure TS will freely admit that they're now SK-hunting, but the mentality is all fixated on the SK. Why is the initial appeal to the SK and not the scum? If the scum can't kill the SK, TS should want to strike a deal with the scum to get the SK lynched as much as make an appeal to the SK to be so kind as to help us out. I think TS is scum who's convinced Zdenek is the SK and Benmage just threw the whole plan out of the window so they've been forced to look elsewhere.

TS: I think your 'LL might be SK' theory is scummy because your instinct was to take the opportunity to cast a small amount of doubt based on an incredibly unlikely theory which you had no evidence for other than flavour-wise Gregor likes to kill people (argue with this all you want, but has anyone here ever seen a lyncher whose target is SK? If they have they certainly haven't mentioned it) rather than simply say 'LL is town'. As for your plan, I think Zdenek's the SK. So I promise to lynch Zdenek tomorrow when he's no longer unlynchable.

As for Nexus, I'm not saying blocking Setael would be the most sensible thing to do. I can, however, see Nexus thinking 'hey, Setael is confirmed scum, that's a good block'. You make the assumption that everyone is operating based on perfect logic. I'm sure we can both agree that's one thing that's definitely not happening in this game. Magua and Dana was just that, a theory. Having read back over a few things, particularly the reaction to the dayvig claim, I think they make less sense as Starks than you do.

[Locke Lamora]

Hmmm.

Unvote

Shadow, why do you think LMP-SK or LMP-Stark would have claimed the kill at all?

[Locke Lamora]

Ok, I'm still trying to sort this mess out in my head, but I agree to the plan.

Preview edit: got to say I agree with a lot of the above, WIFOM though some of it may be.

[Locke Lamora]

Going to format this slightly differently to see if anything sticks out because I've got the nagging feeling that something just doesn't add up.

Starks

Xtoxm - Catelyn Stark - Stark Aligned Neighbouriser
diddin - Brynden Tully, Stark Aligned Tracker
MagnaofIllusion - Edmure Tully - Stark Aligned Jailkeeper
Setael - Robb Stark - Modified Ascetic Godfather

Third Party

Zoraster - Oberyn Martell, Self Aligned lyncher

Lannister PRs

Feysal - Petyr Baelish, Lannister Aligned Voyeur
xvart - Joffrey Baratheon - Lannister Aligned Jack of Some trades
Kast - Varys - Lannister Aligned Rolename Cop
Nexus - Margaery Tyrell - Lannister Aligned Roleblocker
Bunnylover - Grandmaester Pycelle - Lannister Aligned Doctor
DrippingGoofball - Osmund Kettleblack, Lannister Aligned Brother
Andrius - Osney Kettleblack - Lannister Aligned Brother

Benmage -

Hand of the King

- confirmed Osfryd Kettleblack, Lannister Brother w/ Andrius + DGB
Hasdgfas - confirmed Ilyn Payne, 1-shot dayvig, shot Xtoxm D1
LynchMePls - claimed Qyburn, 1-shot CPR doc, killed Chesskid N1.
Shadow1psc - confirmed Olenna Redwyne, Wedding Planner
Zdenek - claimed Tywin Lannister, confirmed Modified Kill-Immune by Kast
Magua - claimed Walder Frey, 1-shot vig, shot Diddin N1

GreyICE

DTMaster

popsofctown - confirmed Jaime Lannister, Friendly Knight

Lannister VTs

Chesskid3 - ‘The Imp’ Tyrion Lannister, Lannister Aligned Townie
Raivann - Randyll Tarly - Lannister Aligned Townie
Thor665 - Roose Bolton Lannister Aligned Townie

Locke Lamora - confirmed Gregor Clegane, claimed VT
Danakillsu - claimed Kevan Lannister, no role name received by Kast so either VT, goon or inv-immune
Twilight Sparkle - claimed Loras Tyrell, VT

That's 14 players who are either confirmed or have claimed PRs for the Lannister side. Does anyone think they could all be telling the truth? If we take Zdenek out, does anyone think that everyone else is telling the truth? For those that don't, would a Stark flip from LMP or Magua confirm the other as Lannister? Similarly, if one of Dana, TS or me flips Stark or SK, how does your opinion of the other two change?

Either scum still has one more very powerful PR to counteract town's pretty strong power (e.g. doctor, roleblocker, 3 mod-confirmed townies, another role that can confirm itself as town to others), or (more likely), there are 2 Starks and a SK left. If we hit the SK then people will know I'm town, but I think that's Zdenek so that's probably out today. I guess what I'm trying to say is, can we practically confirm anyone as Lannister by lynching one of today's potential lynches (me, TS, Magua, LMP, Dana)? In terms of PoE, LMP probably makes the most sense but I still find myself agreeing with Magua's points against him being Stark.

P-edit: TS, from your perspective, if there are two Starks and neither of them are LMP, doesn't that make Dana and Zdenek obv-scum?

[Locke Lamora]

Mina: in a nutshell, it was just how angry you were. It seemed like you were genuinely, utterly frustrated with some of the things I said and wanted to kill me. Call me a sucker, but I got a town vibe from it. As for your other questions, I'll get to them in the next 24 hours, as I'm off for Easter from tomorrow. Honestly, I'm still weighing up possibilities of who could be scum and reading back and it hasn't all clicked yet. Right now I'm putting the majority of my time into that because I think it's more likely to help us win the game than me responding to all of your points.

I need to clarify two things:

1. Shadow (and those in your wedding QT): have you been confirmed as Olenna Redwyne by the mod, or have you only confirmed that you made the seating arrangements? What were you told about the wedding in your original PM?

2. Pops: do you have any experience with ascetic-type roles?

[Locke Lamora]

Shadow. Pops. Read. Answer.

I need to clarify two things:

1. Shadow (and those in your wedding QT): have you been confirmed as Olenna Redwyne by the mod, or have you only confirmed that you made the seating arrangements? What were you told about the wedding in your original PM?

2. Pops: do you have any experience with ascetic-type roles?

[Locke Lamora]

I've broken this up into multiple places to make it easier to see what I'm responding to. As for the SK/Stark lists, I'll get to them once I have some responses *glares*. Rest assured, Zdenek is number one SK.

Random out of context points taken from our ISO, which I don't feel like quoting

For one thing, did you only notice all this stuff

after

you voted for us? I mean, didn't you notice we didn't react to the vig earlier on? (Note: that's not actually a scumtell. I mean, MoI was doing his damnedest to coax the dayvig into taking out town.) But on D2, you thought we were town.

Also, calling dana more likely to be scum if Mikujin flipped town is...um...do you think dana is our buddy? Because otherwise, that isn't actually a scumtell after a Miku scum flip.

I only noticed some of this stuff when I went back and looked at your posts after I got increasingly suspicious about the whole SK thing. For example, I had suspicions about the MoI interactions when I voted, but I didn't have time to put it all together (hence me saying I thought you were Stark and I would show why later). The vig reaction situation was honestly something I had to read through again because I didn't really remember who had reacted, how they reacted and who had skipped over the situation.

As for Dana, it seems pretty unlikely that you're buddies. I guess it's the way you're holding the idea that Mikujin is scum but then only looking at Dana from the perspective that Mikujin is town. A connectional tell based on two living players that runs contradictory to your reads does not flow naturally.

Extra points to saying that my being longwinded in response to MoI is a scum attempt to obscure my posting (um...you have played with me before, right?). And saying that we were distancing because we never voted MoI (to be honest, on D1 I was mostly just pressuring him to get a read, and I never would have lynched MoI over Zdenek on D2, because even I thought he looked town at points)...while ignoring

MagnaofIllusion's

side of the interactions. His vote was on us right out of the gates on D2, and unlike diddin (whose wagon he jumped off as soon as it became credible), he basically did his best to push our lynch and get rid of us. And he actually went out of his way to tarnish our credibility and undermine every one of our comments, not just a token distancing attempt.

(And actually, hito did check with us before moving his vote to ASOIAF. I think he specifically said, "I talked to Mina on AIM" in that very post in which you said, "Look at those scummy scumbags, moving their vote without talking it over when they didn't do the same for MoI." But yeah, I think we were a bit all over the place and slow to reach consensus on D1, because we weren't used to hydraing together.)

Yes, I know you're longwinded as town and scum. It was the notion that of all people, you (Mina) were at loggerheads with the only other poster in the game who can match you in post length, in an argument that I felt, upon reading it, never reached the point of being constructive. It seemed like more of a distraction than anything else, and I was reminded of AGoT. As for the MoI interactions, yes, I focused on your posts more than his, and that was pretty much because I was ISO-ing you. I also thought his attitude to you was strange if he simply wanted to get you lynched. He came out of the gate with a vote on you that looked more than a little pre-planned and only produced a case when there was already a decent-sized wagon on you. If he wanted to convince people to actually lynch you, I would have expected that with the vote. Having said that, I have now noticed that he also tried to tie you to Setael, which makes me feel a bit better about your slot.

As for moving the vote, this is probably why I'm perceiving a disparity in some of your reads. When the distinction between voting and not voting is partly based on whether you've managed to talk to each other about it, it's pretty obvious that there are going to be inconsistencies in what you do and don't consider noteworthy. Judging people on why they do and don't vote for certain players is a pretty important part of scumhunting.

ISO 154 onwards: Zdenek's been governed and now I'm the SK. In ISO 147 me being SK is still semi-bastardly. As recently as ISO 149 TS is asking Zdenek whether he is mafia or SK. By the time we get to ISO 159, TS says 'can it be anyone but LL?' Incidentally, this is what I thought was reminiscent of MoI making it sound ridiculous that Mac could be scum in ACoK. Of course the serial killer could be someone other than me. Not that long ago TS thought it could be Zdenek or Magua. Suddenly I MUST be the SK? It's not a genuine thought process.

Firstly, a subtle distinction: I was the one who thought you being SK was semi-bastardly, and hito was the one who cast his vote for you (I think after discussing it with Sotty). hitogoroshi has really been the one who believed all along that you could be the SK. I've come around to the possibility simply because I hate your play today and I can't figure out who else it might be.

But the evolution was very natural. If it's not you, it had to be Magua or Zdenek. By PoE, I think Zdenek is Stark; his interactions with flipped scum all fit like a glove, and I think Nexus would have probably blocked Zdenek twice (given) that there aren't, by PR. And were everyone in the game not confirmed by some extent, I would have declared Magua obvtown based on his play on D6 alone (although I did have the occasional doubt earlier on). That leaves you.

Again, hydra stuff is confusing. As for you hating my play, yes, it sucks today, and all game, to be honest. I've not been engaged enough for most of it, which is a problem I think I have in the middle parts of Large Themes in particular, and I've been prodding and probing today to see if I can get a much stronger hold on what's going on, which I've probably been lacking since about D2.

Right, but as I pointed out, you're still questioning whether Zdenek is Stark or SK not long before you declare I pretty much have to be the SK. Sure, Magua's play has been pro-town today, but when did you get from that to 'LL must be SK'? If I was SK and I thought I was near the bottom of a lynch list, you know what I'd do? Try to be the most damned pro-town player you've seen in your life - and if you're hunting another faction, that's not actually too hard to do. So my issue was that you were suddenly presenting the case that I was the only possibility that made any sense, which is clearly not true (and you've clearly gone back on this thinking since that point anyway, proving my point).

ISO 10-12 are just efforts to work out Cow's restriction. On the surface, this makes sense, but throughout the game TS has been displaying tendencies to do seemingly pro-town things (e.g. work out ways to understand Cow, the Morse code for the wedding) that entail no scumhunting whatsoever. See also the massive rant about Benmage governing Zdenek - yes, we're all annoyed, but spending that much time telling Benmage he's arrogant and anti-town does not give me a pro-town vibe. We all knew he had the potential to be both of those things when we signed up for the game.

THAT'S ONLY A SCUMTELL IF I WAS DOING THAT WITHOUT ALSO SCUMHUNTING, DUMBASS. YES. WELL DONE. I'M SCUMMY FOR HAVING SUGGESTED A CODE THAT BROKE THE WEDDING, AND WOULD HAVE AVOIDED PREMATURE CLAIMS HAD PEOPLE NOT BEEN STUPID. I should have just posted nothing, because then my ratio of scumhunting to set-up speculation posts would be higher. Way to skip over thirty ISO posts that involved scumhunting to go, "Hey guys, look! Here's a post that's protown, but doesn't have scumhunting."

Also, my reaction is called giving a shit that Benmage saved scum for no reason whatsoever. As opposed to your token, "Boy, that was an antitown move, even though Ben is confirmed town." (Never mind that I'm curious if you think that post sounded fake. I can feign outrage as scum, but I don't think I'm capable of

that

level of vitriol. I would definitely not have been that nasty to Benmage had he just handed me the game on a silver platter.)

No, seriously, do you genuinely believe the bullshit you're spewing? "We all knew he had the potential to be both of those things when we signed up for the game." You've got me. I'm angry at Benmage. But I

knew

that Benmage is always arrogant. Therefore, I'm scummy for wanting to dismember him limb for limb for fucking over the town...because really, what did I expect from Benmage?

Yes, these things are pro-town. It's not about ratios, or that you weren't doing any scumhunting otherwise. It was about spending a lot of time in the game doing things that weren't scumhunting, when all three heads didn't really seem to have that much time (particularly around the point of trying to work out the Cow restriction). But hey, this is all WIFOM, I'm probably slipping into the 'too-townie' fallacy in relation to your efforts to figure out the game, and it was useful for the reaction as much as anything.

Finally, I just get the impression that TS is obsessed with the SK. From the open letter to the SK to the seeds of doubt planted on me, TS is SK-hunting. I'm sure TS will freely admit that they're now SK-hunting, but the mentality is all fixated on the SK. Why is the initial appeal to the SK and not the scum? If the scum can't kill the SK, TS should want to strike a deal with the scum to get the SK lynched as much as make an appeal to the SK to be so kind as to help us out. I think TS is scum who's convinced Zdenek is the SK and Benmage just threw the whole plan out of the window so they've been forced to look elsewhere.

You idiot, I'm not SK-hunting to the exclusion of Stark-hunting. I'm ASKING THE FUCKING SK TO KILL A STARK FOR US. IF I'M A STARK, THAT'S ME. I won't even attempt the "why the fuck would I try to force the SK to do something directly against the Stark wincon" defence, because even though it does make zero sense, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM, no one ever listens to my plans anyway. And what the fuck are you talking about, "Benmage flew that plan out of the window." If I'm Stark, I'd want SK-Zdenek alive so that he kills another confirmed townie for me, not lynched! I would be sending Benmage love letters right now.

Also, to Magua: the whole reason I appealed to the SK first was 1) there's probably a non-BP Stark out there (whereas I doubt Starks could kill the SK if they wanted to), and 2) I'd thought I could show the SK that numerically, it was in his best interest to take out the Starks first. Then when I did the scenarios and realized the SK would always wind up in (*sighs*) Kingmaker, I went, "Heeeey,

wait

a minute. What if I use the town as bargaining power?"

Well, you're asking the SK to kill a suspect player for us. We don't know they're going to listen, and we don't know they're going to hit a Stark. Other than that, yeah, I have to agree with you here. I thought 2 Starks might want to get rid of the SK right about now, but it's probably a day early. The only real reasons they could have to do that are a) they're worried enough that he'll take one of them out that they don't want to keep him around on the chance he'll take out an extra townie or b) they're confident they can engineer enough mislynches to make it to the end of the game with only 1 kill a night (which would be another 2 on D7 and D8 if they did lynch the SK today).

[Locke Lamora]

So you were Olenna Redwyne, VT, before that?

[Locke Lamora]

So were you told that your role was specifically linked to the wedding when you were asked to organise it?

[Locke Lamora]

You can kill him tonight and find out.

Shadow: did you think Nexus was lying about his character when he claimed roleblocker?

[Locke Lamora]

Hey Magua, do you think the Lannisters would have 7 VTs and the Starks still have no goons?

[Locke Lamora]

What made you think I was trying to throw dirt on Dana and TS? I'm pretty sure I don't want to lynch TS today. I have no particular interest in making Dana or TS look bad. Right now I'm trying to work out how this all fits together. Why are you so impatient? I'm going to vote before the end of the day. If I spend longer on it then I'll have a better idea of what the best vote is.

As for all those people being still alive, it is kind of odd, isn't it? Understand now why I'm spending so much time trying to figure it out?

[Locke Lamora]

No, actually I have doubts about Shadow. Hence all the questions to Shadow. Him being VT pushes the number of existing Lannister VTs to 7, so I was curious if that affected your thinking on the scumteam composition.

2821 was a response to TS that was overdue. I have a townier read on them now as a result of that interaction, so I feel it was useful.

The commitment to voting is only useful if you're trying to make connections. Either I'm SK, or I'm town. Sure, I could try to lead a wagon, but that's only worth doing if you have strong convictions about a player. My vote is probably going to LMP, but I'm reading over the period when he claimed right now to see whether I think it came from scum.

As for why I'm not dead, probably because my play has been lacklustre and there's a chance, however small, that I can be pushed as the SK.

[Locke Lamora]

This is LMP's post where he pushes on Feysal for his reaction to the kill (it's post 1072, page 43 if you want to see it in context). Can those who think he was being pre-emptively defensive explain how his claiming the kill fits in with this? I also read through looking for LMP references and the only real one I can find of note in the run-up to this push on Feysal is 'Null with gut badtimes pings for now' from TS, followed by an inclusion on a potential scum list of four.

@Magua:

Not sure where I'm going to put my vote.

I'm debating with-in my head rather or not to vote Raivann, but if he town he just such an easy mislynch.

I mean even I think he's scum,

and I'm useless in my reads almost all my games except for three and one was with like 8 people left.

This. Great catch Magua.

Basically I'm self doubting my read.
Yes I think he scum.
Looking back at my past game, my reads are usually wrong.
Should I follow my reads that are usually wrong or consider something else.
That why I haven't voted. Their no discrepancy, I just don't know if I should trust my reads.
Like I said yesterday if we lynch Zoraster before Raivann, Raivann will still be viewed as scummy while the other way around Zoraster wouldn't have. So should I go with my read even though my mind tells me scum didn't lynch Raivann because they knew they could lynch him tomorrow or scum didn't lynch Raivann because he part of their group.
Bah, I hate how my mind work =/.


And yes I agree with Hasdgfas, DTM needs to speak up more and gives his opinions (that is what your saying?)

So Bunnylover wants to distance himself from his own opinions, but DTM needs to speak up more and give his opinions. Nice double-think.

Bunny's wishy-washy attitude with this fake scum hunting is scummy.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

This stinks of inside information.

Chesskid had soft claimed Tywin Lannister, by saying his character had been the Hand before. The scum may have believed him and thought that Tywin would be a power role. If Chesskid did that on purpose, it was actually well done... he managed to draw a night kill, saving someone else and avoiding his own potential policy lynch.

1)Why was this a soft-claim to Tywin? Tyrion had been the hand as well, so it was more just a soft claim to his role. I thought he might be setting up a fakeclaim, since I was of the opion that he was scum.
2)Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?

LynchMePls

I skipped him alpahbetically and left him for last. For whatever reason I'm finding it hard to get anything out of him. I'm a little unhappy with how quickly he's swapping his read on Raivann based solely on Magua's logic. As well, I'd really like to hear your reasoning for Raising Bunnylover.

Null with gut badtimes pings for now.

If by "raising" you mean "nominating", it's cause I think he's scum.

Changing my vote due to the Hands' wishes.

Unvote
Vote: Feysal

@Benmage: Why exactly are Bunnylover and Mikujin bad lynches?

[Locke Lamora]

Magua, this is why I thought it was important to spend all that time reading back. Can you explain the below?

ISO 75:

LynchMePls is town. Obviously not a Stark, and no serial killer admits like that.

Followed by this in ISO 76:

Actually, I just remembered that LMP didn't shoot diddin N1.

[Locke Lamora]

Where? When? If it helps you answer:

Vote: Magua

LMP is definitely either SK or town.

[Locke Lamora]

So here's the thing, Magua. I'm way behind in the game. I do as much catching up as I can. I find a contradiction with your claim in your posts. I ask you to explain, so instead of you explaining, you complain that I haven't voted. So I vote...and you just proceed to argue how scummy I am. What is your focus here? Because to me it looks like you're just trying to argue how scummy I am, when what I was doing is asking you to explain.

And yes, if LMP was a kill-immune SK, I could see him claiming the Feysal kill, although I could only see that if he's more than 1-shot investigation immune. Otherwise I think he's town. I read his posts around that situation over and over again; there's nothing defensive about it. As soon as Feysal makes that suggestion, he's all over it. He is Stark-hunting like a maniac. Everything he does reeks of the knowledge that the Starks did not make that kill.

[Locke Lamora]

EBWOP: obviously that should read 'more than 1-shot kill immune'.

[Locke Lamora]

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this. Imagine you have a terrible grip on the game and you really haven't been keeping up with what's going on for several days. Now imagine that all of that information you would have had over several days is being compressed into one, and you have all the read changes and questions that come with it. That's what today has been like for me. So yeah, I've probably been going back and forth a lot and I probably don't make sense a lot of the time because you can't see where I'm going with everything.

So when did I say I'm convinced you're scum? If I was convinced you were scum, I wouldn't be bothering with this, would I? If I was convinced ANYONE was scum, I would have voted sooner (and that would have been Zdenek). You were making assumptions about me trying to make Dana look bad even when I never mentioned Dana. There could be reasons for you acting the way you are now from any alignment. You're quite clearly angry about it, and that could be from any alignment. Take this from my perspective. I find a statement that contradicts your claim. I ask you about it and instead of responding you just rant and rave about how scummy I've been throughout the day. So is this more likely to come from a townie, who has a perfectly good explanation for why it looks like they forgot they killed someone, or scum who's lying about it?

Yes, I mean Chesskid. Of course LMP shot Chesskid. I don't think there's any doubt about that. And yes, the more I think about it, the more I think LMP is town.

And seriously, where did TS ask about you forgetting you shot diddin? I don't see it.

Unvote

[Locke Lamora]

I don't understand why you would encourage me to vote you for something that you don't even think is vote-worthy. I honestly don't see what motivation this is coming from, for any alignment.

Yes, so I wasn't sold on you being scum. That means I wasn't convinced. At the time, yes, I did think you and Dana were scum. I don't know that scum were given quotes for their fakeclaims. There are a lot of Walder Freys to pick from. I do think it's relevant to at least consider how realistic everything is in terms of the setup. I apparently have questions that a lot of people don't. For instance, I still don't think Olenna is a particularly pro-Lannister character, nor do I think organising the wedding is indicative of alignment, nor do I think that Shadow has been uber pro-town, but clearly I'm missing something there.

So, as Stark, I could see the possibility that either you knew, or you surmised, that someone dead (xvart) had made the kill and saw the perfect opportunity to get yourself some non-Stark cred to ride to endgame. Either that or you thought the SK made the kill and you took the risk that they wouldn't kill you because you both know that it's in your best interests to have two anti-town killing factions around for most of the game.

Yeah, I am leaning Dana-town. I think that's pretty much based on the 'dumbbells', as you put them.

First off, I didn't want anyone to hammer yet. Secondly, I agree with your analysis of TS's vote and I'm less comfortable with them. Finally, as far as I'm concerned, we're all better served if scum has no idea where my vote is going. This is part of why your impatience was bothering me. I could see scum getting edgy and willing me to get on with it already so they could pin down where my reads are.

[Locke Lamora]

Not so sure about that.


I'm Jaime Lannister, the friendly knight. Each night I may select a player, the mod will pm that player that my

name

is jaime lannister.

N1 target, greyice decided to target DGB.
N2, I was still rereading the game, but had a gut town read on Shadow from what I had read of day 1, I selected shadow.
N3, I realized it was retarded of me not to use my power on the dude with flipping governor status, and targetted Benmage.

Things to draw from this:
1. DGB doesn't actually know I'm town. She just knows my name is Jaime Lannister. On the wiki it says that Jaime betrayed the king and then had to get pardoned for it, so he could very well have either alignment since the mod has reserved the right to spit on the canon. If DGB's mason claim can be considered anything but airtight then I see reason for some suspicion of DGB, my impression is that she failed to realize that the pm doesn't confirm me town because she knew that day 0.
2. Shadow did not claim to have been visited by the friendly knight. We have a roleblocker, the roleblocker said he didn't target me. I have to wonder why shadow did not report getting a pm saying that my name is Jaime Lannister.

It's possible he's immune to night actions

, is a bus driver, or there is a busdriver. Whatever it is it's fishy.

Alright pops, since you didn't respond first time around, I'll highlight it. Where'd you get this idea from (bolded)?

[Locke Lamora]

Hats off to Cow on a risky move played to perfection. I was hoping Shadow, and particularly Dana, who was confronted with two people who didn't make a whole lot of sense as scum, would look back at Cow a bit more critically, but in all honesty, it's hard to do that with someone who's been considered confirmed town for virtually the entirety of the game. The whole part with Cow not hammering made it even harder to conceive him as scum too.

Thanks to Faraday and Seacore for a great job modding, another fun game with plenty of twists and turns and a very tense finish.

[Locke Lamora]

I stand somewhere between Magua and Andrius. I think that you have to hand anyone who kills a scum lots of town points, but as endgame starts coming you should start considering the possibility that he's scum. Especially since cow played very scummy all game.

This. It's absolutely the logical play to consider someone who shoots scum to be confirmed town and, like Magua, I will do the same every time. If he's still alive 8 nights later in 3-man LyLo and there hasn't been any effort to find scum coming out of the slot, then it's time to reconsider that read. I can't say I would have done it myself, though. Hell, I was sure there was something wrong with the assumptions people were making about the setup and who was confirmed/near-confirmed town on D7, but Cow was not someone it occurred to me to look at. For that reason I was dubious about Pops and Shadow, but Cow was basically almost as confirmed town as Benmage. Speaks volumes about how effective the strategy was, in the end.