Newbie 1060: It's a Murder Mystery (Game Over)

[Primate]

Hyup.

I will be your IC for this mafuh session so if you need anything just yell and I'll come running, don't be afraid to ask anything about the way the game is played here or just about the game in general.

Second, fuck your walls. I hate walls. Walls are absolutely stupid. I will probably skim it at best.

Counterpoint: Play how you feel comfortable.

@Snowjordan: What forums did you play mafia on before you came here?

[Primate]

Vote mammut

choo choo goes the bandwagon.

[Primate]

Funny story I originally put train but couldn't figure a way that I could involve the word train with some kind of vote or lynch prefix in a way that scanned well.

You have caught me, mr sarge.

@mammut: uh, you were meant to take the fact that you have two votes on you incredibly seriously. Me and Snowjorden are kind of a big deal in this game and I am sure that if snowjorden is voting you he must have some kind of reason why, even if he modestly brushes it off as random.

[Primate]

What kind of plot are you imagining?

[Primate]

God you newbies have got weird since I last played one of these.

[Primate]

I was probably playing a bit too crazy for a newb game at the beginning there, it may have been confusing and I apologise for that. The reason for my second vote on mammut was simply to have a second vote on someone and get a bandwagon going. The post I made to respond to mammut where I said it was a serious thing was both a reaction to mammuts relaxed stance on his wagon (his response was a correct one), and partially because I wanted to see what snowjorden would do if I hyped a wagon up a bit and then tried to paint him as the leader of it. I did this by using obviously faulty logic (there is absolutely no way that snowjorden could actually be suspicious of mammut because he hadn't posted yet. Snow obviously isn't a big deal around here because he's never played here before) because I wanted to keep the air of the whole thing not being serious.

I put the second vote on mammut because I like bandwagons in the early game and find they give people something to talk about a lot quicker than just a bunch of people moving votes around and waiting for a dumb person to say a thing and be bandwagonned anyway.

Sarg you have mafia exp, yeah? How much? Also don't say things like "problem officer" unless you intend for it to be a crumb. Don't crumb either.

People here don't generally crumb. It does happen, but very infrequently, and if it does it's generally something more subtle but more obvious when found (capitalised letters in a long sentence is the most normal one). If someone says things that obviously relates to a certain role, use your judgement but they probably aren't hinting it.

@Prime, can I call you Prime? If not, what do I call you for short? Why is Snow a big deal? Also if you were to flip scum, do you think we could essentially clear mammut? Why or why not?

Prim is most common. Also, I wont flip scum. If in a hypothetical similar game where I was scum and I flipped, the reason you couldn't clear mammut was because I hadn't actually made any serious moves to get him lynched here. Deadlines on games here generally last 3 weeks and whilst days don't normally run out their length, they are pretty long, and generally have a lot of back and forth between a few wagons. Thats not to say we don't lynch the first person we run up occasionally but a lot of stuff goes on and you can't generally read a person based on one action they take, I may scum attempting to lynch my scumbuddy mammut in order to gain town credit, for example.

This was still during the voting stage, so keep that in mind. And yet, he seems sure that one of his wagoners has a reason, EVEN THOUGH THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY REASONS THIS EARLY IN THE GAME.

Yeah, I picked up on that.

The fact that he knowingly tossed out the word train favor of bandwagon seems to be a serious lack of thought on his part, moreso for what he was trying to do.

I knew exactly what I was doing (bandwagonning mammut). I didn't care about the specifics (bandwagons going choo choo) because I see them as irrelevant to the intent.

Yep, definitely is. Which is why I wanna know why he thinks I made that vote.

I must confess I'm not sure. There are no contradictions, it doesn't seem bandwagon relevant, and he doesn't seem particularly wishy washy in his stances, which are the kind of things I'd expect to see. Is it something to do with the two unrelated defences of mummat?

Yeah just realized it did a quick reply. When I did it earlier, it went to advanced mode.

It does that if there's been a change to the thread since it loaded.

I personally find the pictures annoying because I find them unecessary and they take up a load of vertical space. I think you also need to treat them as if they are just images in the posts, not expressions of a persons intention. They are so open to interpretation they are essentially meaningless. That said I can live with if he does carry on using them, it's not really effecting my game experience.

Sorry about the wall, I was asleep. If I missed anything I'll probably catch it later.

[Primate]

Sorry, I've been a bit lax on my posting, I'll catch up throughout today in bits.

Second, I wanted to see how the rest of the town reacted. Primate ignored me. Fair enough, I wasn't doing anything that he needed to respond to, and he didn't respond. I'll push that, but the IC is the IC, and he'll do what he does.

Sorry, I thought I responded to you, what did I miss? You shouldn't assume I'm working on any greater level than the rest of you.

Not sure how to read Snowjordan. I dislike his statement in #112 because he's trying to paint lynching him as this terrible thing, and I didn't feel it was necessary. Also I think it's a little odd that someone who doesn't know the amount of players in the game would assume there is a scum roleblocker, but that's probably nothing.

In that post I also object to him trying to paint the the fact that some people find him scummy as a personal eccentricity of his dubious. His attitude to the greyice vote in general is a little bit poor as well, the fact he's belittling it instead of treating it seriously is scummy, imho.

I think generally mhi calling him very defensive was pretty much on the money, but his interactions with mb53 have generally been ok. It's just it seems that whenever anyone attacks him he overreacts, sometimes obviously disingenuously (look at the way in #123 he reacts to mhi, saying he hasn't been defensive because he hasn't been *really* defensive).

The reason I'm not sure how to react to this is whilst normally I would view it as scummy, over defensiveness like this is one of the hallmark new player tells, and I'm not really getting anything other than that off of him, so I'm going to reserve judgement on that one for a little while.

[Primate]

Also I think it's a little odd that someone who doesn't know the amount of players in the game would assume there is a scum roleblocker, but that's probably nothing.

When I was thinking the numbers were 2 scum and 3 town, I'd have guessed the scum roles were night kill and role block. Now that I'm up to speed and realize we aren't playing a 5 person game (seems so dumb to me now), I'd think there's probably more like 3 scum, which means probably still night kill and role block, but add in a recruiter maybe?

I dunno. I was just going with the most obvious.

The setup for this game is listed in the third post of this thread.

[Primate]

I think both voided and snowjordan actually came out of that argument pretty well.

VOTE: Unvote: vote Mhi200

Also, snowjorden seems to be painting a target on anyone who is currently or will in the future attack him. A townie should be focused on finding Maf, dying on day one as a townie is not a very big loss to the town tbh (and is very liely to happen either way)
With there only being two Maf, on the other hand, they need to focus on staying alive, and maybe cause the occasional mislynch to accelerate the process of killing off the townies. While saying there is no need for defense, snowjorden seems to be very defensive, constantly claiming town.

I'd like to know who specifically you feel snowjordan was "painting a target on". Just the people, not why at the minute (feel free to say why as well if you want).

Also, Voided's (relatively)sudden unvote seems suspicious.

Why do you feel it suspicious?

[Primate]

Sorry, I haven't been well these past couple of days, resulting in what I'm sure is a pretty terrible IC experience for you. Least it doesn't seem to be slowing you down much, so thanks for not making me feel guilty there. This'll be one of a few posts I make today about what's occured. I have all weekend, so they'll probably be about specific things rather than relating to the currentl flow of the game at first.

There were a couple of reasons I went after mhi. It was mostly because I'd just got a more positive read off of snowjordan and was looking for somewhere else to go, and on first read he seemed somewhat sideliny. That read didn't actually hold beyond a cursory look (he was second on snowjordan), but I noticed a couple of things that I wanted to ask him about, so I went with it anyway. His responses were pretty legitimate, actually. I questioned the use of the word suspicious because I thought he might be hiding in ambiguity there, but turns out he wasn't, and I can entirely see why someone would find voideds move away from snow peculiar, and I agree with him it didn't really seem spurred by anything. The other point I'm still a little dubious about, is that he said

Also, snowjorden seems to be painting a target on anyone who is currently or will in the future attack him.

This is mainly because both MB53 and Sarg were trying to attack snowjordan at the time, and he had a town read on Sarg and didn't mention his thoughts on MB53, so I thought it was a bit disingenous. If you take it the way it was explained by mhi, that whenever he said guys he was talking to everyone, It's a little better, I still don't think it's an accurate read of the situation.

My statement about snowjordan and voided was literal. I was pretty sure voided was town beforehand simply due to volume of posting and plausible reactions. The reason I think snowjordan came out of it well, and I say this as someone who was suspicious of snowjordan beforehand, is that I find that kind of frustrated attitude very much town, and doing stuff like that posting of a role pm speaks well to me because I don't see scum being quite so uncontrolled and active when in a debate like that. Now, there were parts of it I didn't like (notably the OMGUS and the reasons for, the belittling of the case against himself), but I really liked the fact that he offhandedly dismissed the case against himself. To clarify, I don't like it from a gameplay point of view, doing crap like that doesn't aid the flow of the game, and you really shouldn't do it for politeness sake, but I do think that it ties into a thread throughout snows side of that argument, which is that he doesn't really care if he gets lynched in the same way a scum would, a scum wouldn't have responded with an offhand dismissal. He's too obviously combatative.

I'm not saying I think snowjordan is town, but I came out of that argument feeling a lot better about him and wanting to look somewhere else for a bit.

[Primate]

Right, general game opinions, not responding to Greyice post yet (I am aware of it).

Lady Lambdadelta Zensei -


Mhi200 -
Otolia mammut -


Sarg338 -
snowjorden - This is covered in my earlier post, he hasn't done anything since then.
Voidedmafia -
GreyICE (SE) Ibarra (SE) -
mb53 (SE) -

[Primate]

Didn't mean to submit that, ignore me.

[Primate]

sorry, I make my posts in the preview window Right, general game opinions, not responding to Greyice post yet (I am aware of it).
Lady Lambdadelta Zensei
-
I actually thought Zensei had a decent head on him and agreed with what he was saying, so it was a bit of shame to see him go

I thought Lady Lambdadelta vote and reasoning on snowjordan was oppurtunistic and completely unaccepting of the fact that she was talking to a newbie and I didn't like it. The first two things in her list there are things that require previous knowledge, and she doesn't seem to internalize the fact that this newb obviously wouldn't have that. I think the last points weak as well, as he he clerly gave a reason as for why he was doing it. Now, that reason wasn't interally consistent, but I would jus ask, not throw a vote on at that point (not that I'm you, so this is kind of a moot point). The reason I dislike it generally is becuase it is a third vote on a wagon. The third vote is generally the vote that moves a wagon from a factor to being a plausible lynch for the day, and it has a huge rep for being scummy becuase it is a vote scum generally take because they can hide in not being groundbreaking and coming up with their own opinions/hiding in the crowd, and they are also pusing the wagon into being the aforementioned lynch possibility. It's an old school scumtell and if I explained it badly say so, because it's parts are still very valid. Anyway, I dislike it in this case because I thought the reasons LLD was going on were weak.

LLD streches a lot in what she says as well. I literally rolled my eyes when she posted the

Nice Scum Claim bud. In my PM, the XXX is replaced by MY NAME.

simply because she said it like it was some kind of revelation when I'd hope everyone here had twigged that it could easily be faked and that claim was functionally useless upon seeing it for the first time, especially after discussed it earlier in the game. (I also think that it was fairly blatantly a defiant gesture w/claim included, not an honest attempt to clear himself by claiming boilerplate townie, but that's my read, not yours.)

--
Mhi200 -

There's the thing I mentioned before with Mhi but honestly since then I've haven't really minded him. He's been quiet, but I don't think he's been noticably so, if you get me. I like the calmness and the fact he is actively trying to respond to criticisms against him and not hope they go away, I think that speaks pretty well for him.

--
Otolia mammut -

Very sure Oto is town. Very transparant posting.
Posting views on all townies when not under pressure to do so is town, and the fact that she is finding more people scummy than town speaks well, as generally scum set more people aside as town than scum. I like the fact that he was anal about knowing whether Sarg and Void had worked together previously, as I feel that that kind of conspiracy forming is town. I also really like the move to end the day as soon as he enters. It's an incredibly easy pattern for scum to fall into, extending the end of of a day for the sake of it, and arguing for quick end isn't something townies do often. His attack on MB53 is plausible, and I really like the opinion that MB53 is using SE status to make people more uncomfortable in their own reads. I don't agree with it, but it's a clever thing to think and implies the thought behind. I also liked the offhand dismissal of the MB53 rebuttal to his argument, as he is obviously active, so the fact he was willing to do that showed confidence in his views and his position indicative of town.
--
Sarg338 -

Scummy. Since the snowjordan wagon appeared on wednesday he's done very little that is scumhunting related,whilst posting not infrequently, and even before that he wasn't doing a great deal. He has been coasting without his vote on anyone or making stances for a while now. Then he hits a -1 on the snowjordan wagon without really covering why, even in a basic fashion. My exact read of that would depend on how the reveal comes up, but I think his conduct this game so far has been scummy.

---
snowjorden - This is covered in my earlier post, he hasn't done anything since then.

Voidedmafia -
I'll go into detail on this if you ask me too but I'm pretty sure voided is town and I think most other people are too. I think his opinions are just incredibly transparant.

GreyICE (SE) -

I think GreyIce is wrong about some stuff, but probably town.

I liked his list of alignment ranking. I do think he's got incredibly tunnelvisioned on snowjordan being scum and is shaping his world view around that, and could really do with stepping back and reassesing things, but anyway.

mb53 (SE) -

I think his jordan view is lazy and never adaquately explained. He gets an early read based on what appears to me as little and then later into the day moves it into a posititon of being fairly sure jordan is a mislynch, a switch that doesn't feel natural. And it's not my read, but I don't really get his read on orto. Especially the fact he sticks him at #1 for something I'd probably ignore.

In red another case of pointless aggressiveness. I don't know how you behave IRL, but I ask you to stop doing that. My post wasn't stupid, it had a purpose, and it's not because you can't understand it that it is stupid.

Quoting this just for comment. Orto, it's a big failing of mafia players in general to assume that people are going to read out of their posts everything they put into them. There's nothing wrong with putting that stuff in there but, don't get pissy when they don't see it and it was important, becuase it happens to us all.

Wasn't particularly a fan of MB53's response to ortos argument in line by line like that, felt like a by the numbers effort for the sake of rebuttal, not to try and convinve the person that you are town. I also think it's a scummy way of responding to arguments generally because it gives every line equal status without a view as to their importance within context.

VOTE: Unvote

[Primate]

Sorry, I've been dragged in a different game.

Which is no excuse, I know.

Basically, Primate's last post was a long bunch of absolutely nothing. I hate to say it, but it really was. Read this paragraph for instance:

There were a couple of reasons I went after mhi. It was mostly because I'd just got a more positive read off of snowjordan and was looking for somewhere else to go, and on first read he seemed somewhat sideliny. That read didn't actually hold beyond a cursory look (he was second on snowjordan), but I noticed a couple of things that I wanted to ask him about, so I went with it anyway. His responses were pretty legitimate, actually. I questioned the use of the word suspicious because I thought he might be hiding in ambiguity there, but turns out he wasn't, and I can entirely see why someone would find voideds move away from snow peculiar, and I agree with him it didn't really seem spurred by anything. The other point I'm still a little dubious about, is that he said

Also, snowjorden seems to be painting a target on anyone who is currently or will in the future attack him.

This is mainly because both MB53 and Sarg were trying to attack snowjordan at the time, and he had a town read on Sarg and didn't mention his thoughts on MB53, so I thought it was a bit disingenous. If you take it the way it was explained by mhi, that whenever he said guys he was talking to everyone, It's a little better, I still don't think it's an accurate read of the situation.

It looks like content, it adds ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to our game.

Then this gem:

I'm not saying I think snowjordan is town, but I came out of that argument feeling a lot better about him and wanting to look somewhere else for a bit.

Uh... okay, Primate. So so far you have some semi-town reads on some people, Snow Jordan might kinda be scum, and some other people seem townish? No commentary on me, Otolia, or anyone else?

Ugh. I have a policy of not lynching the IC on day 1, but this is such a content-free post that seems to be saying something and does nothing that it's screaming experienced scum waiting for the town to turn on itself to me.

I'm going to say SnowJordan/Primate scumteam.

That really depends entirely on what information you wanted. I thought that post did a pretty good job of explaining why I don't know whether snowjordan is scum or not and why I voted mhi and how I now felt about that vote.

Picking up on it for not having commentary on you, Otolia, anyone else other than Mhi/Snow feels nitpicky when I said in the first line that it wouldn't be about the current game state, and I wasn't trying to write that post to address that, it was meant to be a response to the people earlier who were speculating about the first line of that post I made, and partially you, who called me scum buddy for making it. I also threw in my explanation of the vote on mhi as well because contextually it made sense in there.

[Primate]

F.U, was in the middle of making a wall explaining why i thought snowjordan wasn't scum. I'll finish and post it tomorrow, if I'm still alive any anyone cares. Hopefully I'm wrong and gogo team!

@Voided: Yeah, site was down for about 3-4 hours earlier.

[Primate]

Ok, so I'm doing terribly this game. I hadn't finished making an argument for snowjordans townieness, so there was the chance I would have scrapped it all, but I was strongly leaning that way.

I didn't think that snowjordans movements were rational or well thought out. What I thought many of them were bad plays based on inexperience and an incorrect view of how he should be playing the game. For example, him sticking an OMGUS vote on VM was something that I assigned to his defensive attitude. I felt a defensive attitude in this context was town because new players in general have tendency to overstate their own importance in the game, and attacking someone for attacking you is something that happens because players feel that because the other player is attacking someone they know to be town, they must retaliate and they struggle with the rationalisation that the other person doesn't know they are town like they do. The get it, but don't properly feel it, if you get me. This attitude seemed consistent how frustrated he seemed to be getting.

I also thought that the frustrated attitude in general was something that was fairly townie. The most obvious example of what I perceived to be the frustration being that fake claim, which I never believed he intended to be a real claim. I think an attitude like that leans town because generally scum get less annoyed about the fact they are being lynched and become more calm the closer they get to lynch. The only real notable exception I can think of is when the scum doesn't feel they deserve to be run up and I didn't get that vibe here.

The calmness actually did come along a bit later, in retrospect, but I was probably weighting my mind towards the earlier actions more.

His posts on the Monday/Tuesday were the ones I didn't really have a chance to get through properly because there was the hammer + the site was down for a few hours. My feel on reading them was that I might have been swayed more towards thinking he was scum if I'd actually put together arguments involving them instead of going in with a set mind. There's a couple of things in there I'd like to hope I would have picked up on.

I wasn't positive the guy was town but to me it really felt like the mislynch of a newb townie being lynched for doing newb things.

As for why you shouldn't lynch me, I can see entirely why you want to and don't blame you. Not scum though.

There is something I will say though. My normal playstyle is just to go "XXX is scum" or "XXX is town" or "really not feeling XXX or XXX as scumbuddies". Now I really don't think that kind of thing is acceptable for a newbie game, so I've been trying to put down my thoughts and I think that's why I am suffering. After spending three hours writing a post you don't want to scrap it and start another one with the fresh eye provided by having ordered your ideas by writing them down. I think my reads are suffering, and I was never particularly good at reading new players anyway. That's why it's a little surreal you lambasting me for not being sufficiently clear in posts. I wouldn't normally make a meta argument in a newbie game but I considering it directly answers your comment about there being nothing there earlier I don't mind making it here.

Also, the post you quoted I was trying to move the discussion away from the two of them arguing, yeah. I wanted to drop the argument because both players involved seemed a bit fragile and I thought they were both town. I could have posted a defense of snowjordan, but I really didn't think there was much in there that had a defence other than he is a newb and thought that snowjordan was coming out of it badly enough that I wanted to end it for a bit before coming back to snowjordan as a lynch target. I wasn't actively trying to obsfucate what I was doing, but then again I didn't really put that much thought into it. You're right to pick up on it with the knowledge that snowjordan is scum though.

[Primate]

Do you always do this thing where you try and be overly dramatic to foster support for your positions?

I wasn't so much trying to move the discussion away from the argument between Voided and Snowjordan as fully aware that my move onto Mhi would do that and didn't object to this. I think it's pretty much necessary for a town to bandwagon two or three people D1, and to me snowjordan showed signs of a newb who was going to be lynched early. I wanted to move discussion away from him and onto Mhi, who had been relatively quiet not particularly because I thought that snowjordan didn't deserve lynching but that it would a terrible move to keep going forward with that at that point.

I didn't post who I thought was scum because I was responding to other things in that post. It wasn't because of the center of the game thing. By the way, I do think you're right about the center of the game thing, but I think it's more a response to pressure that scum feel more than town in that context. You'll see the same thing in endgame town players and some power roles.

My feel for who the scum is are either MB53 or Sarg. Don't think it's you, Otolia or voided, think it's unlikely it's Mhi.

One I'd lynch first is MB53 because Sarg gave me indications of town in the early game and his vote on MB53 felt legitimate.

[Primate]

VOTE: MB53 Sorry.

[Primate]

There's nothing wrong with that as a playstyle, but it does make it more annoying to argue with you because there is the sense that you wouldn't respond levelheadedly. That is definitely usable and there's milage in it as a playstyle and as a reputation you should try and foster considering it's coming naturally. I actually quite like the fact it annoys me so GJ there I suppose. And I can hardly say you're bad when my one experience of you was catching a scum I defended. That said, I think the playstyle if played straight could fall to some serious tunneling issues where you lose scope of the main game, but I suspect you're already learning to avoid this.

But, I really don't get what you're saying about that reading like an endgame post. If you're implying a defeatist attitude, yeah, I had that because I'd been wrong about snowjordan and didn't really relish defending myself there. Pure survival motive is potahtoh potarto. I wasn't attacking anyone because I was specifically responding to you and that post was long enough. I wasn't trying to survive, I was trying to make you understand my position so we could move on and lynch a scum and not me.

[Primate]

Honestly MB53 a lot of my vote on you is that I don't think it's any of the other people. Oto and Greyice get enough townpoints from the wagon alone, it's not void because if you read that earlier argument it makes no sense. I thought it was mhi earlier but unlikely with the vote to lynch pussyfooting and I've generally liked mhi for town since I read their response to the questions I asked when I voted them.

Could be sarg, prefer you.

Also my actions are different to yours because I wasn't attacking snow before and you were.

[Primate]

VOTE: Unvote

I think it's very unlikely he's lying.

VOTE: Sarge, I guess.

[Primate]

Nah they're worth of a bit in F11 before any of the setup is known. Scum don't know what it is bar the bit of information they have in the RB. You reckon scums gonna hit up the 50/50 chance of immediately losing the game by counterclaim?

[Primate]

Yeah actually going to look at some other games here in Road to Rome because it actually strikes me that they might.

[Primate]

Ok ICE. The setup is 2 Mafia goons because one was lynched, and there was still a death last night. I am the doctor, and I protected voided because everyone seemed to be in agreement he was town. Anyone want to counterclaim saying they are a cop or a doctor? If so, you can lynch me, then lynch them, and game over, town win. If not, there is no reason not to believe my claim.

Pretty sure scum RBs can kill and do the RB if they are the only one left.

[Primate]

Just checked the rules and that's how it looks.

[Primate]

Yeah that was pretty much my thought too, GI. I'm going back trawling through other newbie games now to see if there's precedent.

[Primate]

PPS: Don't breadcrumb early in the game, leave it till mid D1 though. Early D1 is the time people are massively overanalysing each others posts cause there's barely anything to read and if there's a quick player in the game that shits pretty much guaranteed to get noticed. Bread crumbing is bad play generally form. In my opinion against the spirit of the game and frowned upon because it opens up a puzzle solving arena that annoys a lot of people becuase it wasn't what they signed up to play. Some mods ban cryptogrophy to hide information in the early game, and it is my personal opinion that this should extend to breadcrumbs.

I mean, my first reaction upon reading your breadcrumb claim was to go through all of your posts looking for any other breadcrumbs of other roles that you may have intended if you had been forced to claim something other than this, and no-one really wants to have to do that. It just opens up a can of worms that should be avoided.

IC OpEd in hyar.

[Primate]

Eh, I did about 15 games and none of them did it d2, it was all endgame stuff. Still useful that players are willing to take the chance but didn't see one with 7 guys still standing.

Also I've been fucking terrible this game but I believe MB53.

After that claim really do prefer Sarg as lynch. What can you say, I'm a bleeding heart.

[Primate]

Went back and looked at snowjordans list of opinions. I actually think it speaks worst about mhi, sarg (and me, but hey!).

@Oto: What scum bus throw? Do you mean that concession in #388?

Your wish is my command. (Equinox)

[Primate]

(mod edit pls)

*think it speaks worst

[Primate]

Oh, yep, with you now. Thought he meant that you did a scum busthrow that you were trying to get us to believe. That makes some sense as opposed to little.

When you say scum bussed jordan who do you mean specifically?

[Primate]

I wasn't arguing for his lynch though. I was arguing against his lynch. I changed my mind on that yesterday shortly after his claim.

I'm going to change it back after having a day to think about it. I did think his claim was plausible, but it's also completely believable that under pressure like this he would make a claim like that.

I also wouldn't be happy him getting to endgame based on what I think is solely that claim and I suppose that's the test as to whether you actually believe something.

Going to keep thinking about it but I'm very likely going to hammer before I go to sleep which'll be about an hour.

[Primate]

I wasn't arguing for his lynch though. I was arguing against his lynch. I changed my mind on that yesterday shortly after his claim.

I'm going to change it back after having a day to think about it. I did think his claim was plausible, but it's also completely believable that under pressure like this he would make a claim like that.

I also wouldn't be happy him getting to endgame based on what I think is solely that claim and I suppose that's the test as to whether you actually believe something.

Going to keep thinking about it but I'm very likely going to hammer before I go to sleep which'll be about an hour.

Yay, if he flips town, a blind monkey would lynch you for this post so I don't even have to worry about being the victim of the night kill.

Changing your mind is pro-town because it shows dislike of posturing, which scum really like because it sticks people into categories that allow them to play the long game better in their own mind.

It's actually pretty reliable if their reasons are even remotely plausible.

You can't trust it in this context of course because I'm advocating it, but it's quite a good one and worth remembering once the game is over.

[Primate]

I mean more along the lines of changing your opinion on whether someone is town and scum and how scummy/townie you think they are. Changing your mind about simple things and things that aren't just concessions in service to your existing opinions don't really count.

[Primate]

*are just

[Primate]

Going there isn't meant in the sense of I will do it in the future, it's meant in the moving sense. Like "I am going to have a smoke" doesn't mean the guy's planning to have a smoke, it means they are doing it now.

I had already changed my mind before I made that post.

[Primate]

*cough*

As for LyLo, quick survival guide for the two town who are left:

If EITHER of you throws down your vote quickly, and it hits town, the town loses. Take your time, read people, THINK ABOUT THE MOTIVES behind their actions.

If you're alive at LyLo it's because there's a reason you're alive at LyLo. Is it because the scum thinks you'll toss the vote on the other townie? Are you the mislynch? Do they think they can persuade you? You're there for a reason, oh yes you are. There's three shots to make sure that you were the two people alive - not anyone else. Especially after tonight, both shots went into someone they wanted dead.

It's very possible and likely to win at LyLo. Scum are still scummy. Town are still town. Just don't tunnel - everything is open to question.

Yeah, this is good advice. Secondguessing yourself to heaviliy under the pressure of lylo is a real threat but you absolutely need to sit back and be as objective as possible at that point.

@GreyIce: I think you're overthinking there. You're definitely overthinking how much thought I'd put into it if I was scum. I generally don't play to do anything other than plan for the current day, kill off the townies who suspect crap then deal with the day as it comes. Needless to say I'm not normally a great scum, though it generally works ok.

VOTE: MB53

[Primate]

Claim : Cop.

N1 - Lady LambdaDelta - Town.
N2 - Sarg338 - Scum.

And we have two lynches left so as far as I can see that's game.

VOTE: Sarg338

[Primate]

Literally does not matter, Otolia.

1 scum left. We have 2 lynches.

1) Primate is a cop. He has a guilty. Sarg is scum
2) Primate is scum. He has no guilty. Sarg MUST be town (because 1 scum)

Sarg flips town, we lynch primate.

There's no defense against a sane cop. I mean we could lynch Primate and if he flips cop vote sarg, it just doesn't matter here.

2 lynches. 1 of the 2 must be scum. Profit.

Want to lynch me first so we get more of these great day/nightscenes?

(this is a joke)