Execution Mafia GAMEOVER!

[Final Fires]

Hey guys!

First impressions of this format:

1. (This is obvious but...) It's very important we communicate and coordinate over who gets the night kill on the thread. If we all vote for whoever we want, odds are the mafia are going to get it. Plus it will give us more information to work with the next day

2. I would be willing to bet that there are four scum players, because that would give them a total of eight votes. That means it only takes one dead townie, or two depending on what happens in a tie, for them to be able to use their nightkill. I would be surprised if there were three scum players or less, because that means that they only have six votes. It would take three dead townies before they had access to the kill; which in a game this small seems like a long time. There could always be two teams or a SK, but that would also surprise me in this setup.

@mod - What happens in the event of a tie over who gets the nightkill?

3. Therefore, I think it would probably be in our best interest to give the execution to someone who would opt for a no lynch with it (or just not reach a majority). This way going into night we could have 9 town votes against 8 mafia votes. As long as we all coordinate on who we want to have the kill, and who we want that person to kill, it would be better than using our lynch to kill them. That way we guarantee that the mafia won't have access to a nightkill day one.

This is assuming that the game is 9 townies vs 4 mafia though, which is admittedly a stretch. We also don't know if there are any abilities that tamper with votes on nightkills, or anything like that, so this could be risky if we do it. However, unless we have a strong reason to suspect why someone might be scum, I think this would be our best option.

Opinions?

[Final Fires]

EBWODP: Oh whoops, I forgot to include that you can't vote for yourself to get the NK. That makes the above plan even more risky. If there are four mafia, then it would be 8 town votes against 8 mafia votes for the first kill. However I still think it's a good idea to not lynch the first time, because if we mislynch then it's 7 town votes against 8 mafia votes. Depends on how a tie is resolved whether we should actually do this or not.

[Final Fires]

@Umbrage - You're right, it would be a huge risk. However, it could have a big payoff too. Five scum seems a little unreasonable though. I would view the nightkill more as our lynch; we all agree beforehand who is getting the nightkill (like exe said) and then we agree who they will kill.

@Exe - Can you elaborate on why you're against no lynch, but support no nightkill? And I agree with you that it would be a paradox, but you're forgetting that it would give our PRs an opportunity to gather more information too. The longer we can draw out the kills, the more information our cop will be learning too.

First off, under no circumstances should we not use our kill every day. It makes zero sense to try and get a town majority for kills during the night when we can elect someone to kill during the day, and they have to kill who we tell them to, or they make it obvious they are a traitor to the town. Final Fires gets some scumpoints for proposing we no lynch.

We would still know who gets the nightkill. We would discuss it in the thread, and tell them who we want them to kill. It would be exactly like a regular lynch, it would just occur over the night phase.

If ties are resolved by something like the flip of a coin, then I agree the no lynch plan is a horrible idea that is just too risky. If we did do this, I'm only suggesting we do it on day one. I just thought I would throw this out there so that people could comment on it (when I wrote it I also forgot we couldn't vote for ourselves, so I thought townies had nine votes at night. If that were the situation, then this would be a much less risky plan.)

Third, I'm pretty sure Axe is scum.

Could you explain this?

[Final Fires]

Obviously We can't have night claims so how did you guys want to deal with day(possibly night) claims? When the executioner decides on their kill, I think we can wait for 24 hours for a claim during the day.

I think we should try to stick to a time table something like this:

First week: Decide executioner
Second week: Decide who executioner kills
Third week: Decide who gets nightkill, and who they will kill with it.

We've got four big decisions to make, so we need to be careful not to spend all of our time deciding who gets to execute, then cramming in who gets the nightkill the last couple of days. This will also give the receiver of the night kill an opportunity to claim, so we can adjust the NK accordingly.

Also, I think it's important for us to have two plans for the nightkill. Like, "If Player A flips scum, we'll give the nightkill to Player B who will kill Player C, but if he flips town we'll give the nightkill to Player C who will kill Player B." Like Charter said, if the executioner kills someone who is town, I would not want to give the NK to them. And I also agree with Ant that for now, we should not be giving the lynch and the NK to the same person.

At night I will vote for the same person that I vote for during the day, unless that person is the Executioner and they execute a townie.

Can you explain what you mean by this? "Vote for the same person" meaning vote to kill, or vote to give the NK to?

[Final Fires]

Your timetable idea seems interesting, however the chance of play might not flow so smoothly.

You're right, we would have to be more lenient depending on the situation. They're more general guidelines than rules written in stone; if need be we could always adjust them to fit our situation.

twistedspoon strikes me as someone who knows too much. Why would there be an investigative role or some type of doctor? How are you so certain of that?

I see no pro-town reason why anyone would say this. How were you hoping twisted would answer you? "I know because I am a cop/doc?" This question just seemed like it was designed to out a PR. Plus by saying this you're suggesting that you're not an investigate role or some type of doctor - why would you be softclaiming so early?

The fact that he's already rolefishing (especially for a doctor/cop) and suggested that he's not a doctor or cop is a huge red flag for me.

FoS: Vezok

In other news, something about Ant bothers me.

Could you expand on this?

I guess I didn't really consider the possibility of night actions and prs

Why would you softclaim vanilla townie on page 2?

FoS: Exe

Most of my reads are null so far, but the only person I'm really suspicious of at this point is vezok. I am a little less suspicious of exe, but the fact that he already softclaimed seems very anti-town to me.

[Final Fires]

Also my question wasn't designed for rolefishing. It was designed for something else but whatever. If I am going to have to fight with you over one question I prefer it to end now.

Then what was it designed for? No matter what answer you got, you would've gotten a clue on whether twisted was a PR or not. I'm sorry but I can't just end it now, considering that so far that's the most scummy thing that has happened on this thread.

I still think not exicuting anyone today would be better... also is a mass claim a bad idea here? It helps tell us who not to kill. I know it's not an open set up so... idk.

I think a mass claim would be a huge mistake. And we'll give people an opportunity to claim before they get killed, so if they do have a powerful role we can adjust who we kill.

Can anyone explain to me exactly what the case is against Twisted?

Exe, please respond to questions on post 45.

[Final Fires]

The case on twistedspork is: sheeping, rolefishing, and blatant buddying.

For what it's worth, vezok has done all three of those too; except to a much higher degree. He rolefished for the doctor/cop role. He has been hardcore buddying with exe. As you pointed out in post 51, he's also sheeping exe. At this point, I think he's scummier than Twisted.

Also, where did twisted rolefish? As of now I still have a town read on twisted, but if you could point that out it might change.

[Final Fires]

But really people. The amount of people rushing on this wagon is disturbing.

Ant nailed it. It worries me that there was such a frenzy to get a bandwagon so quickly, especially on HC's part. I'm not sure if exe is scum or not (as of now I have a null read on him), but the wagon for him definately did seem scum driven.

@FF: I would like to hear of your suspicions since I am voting for you. It'd be meaningless to vote a player when only who they execute is what matters.

If I got the execution right now, I would kill vezok with it (at the end of the three week period of course). My other top suspicion is HC. HC for rushing exe's bandwagon, and trying to get others to do it. Exe I have a null read on, but it's starting to lean scummy. His strong desire to be executioner, coupled with his attempt at rushing gaining the position of power make me a little uncomfortable. Plus it seems like him and a few others (HC, shattered, and vez especially) are trying to "bully" others into voting him, threatening that if they don't trust him they won't look pro-town. From what I can see, that's how the debate against twisted started; he disagreed with an idea that exe proposed and immediately became a top suspect. This feels like a reoccuring theme throughout this thread too. Disagree with exe, pay the price. It also bothers me that exe already softclaimed vanilla townie without any pressure to do so. Shattered I'm a little suspicious of too, but all the points I have against him have already been mentioned by others. Out of the people I listed, shattered seems the least anti-town.

If I wanted to give my reasons I would have stated them.


I asked that question because I wanted to see a reaction and something else. I won't tell what that something else is.

Fair enough. However, you will stay at the top of my scum list, because you're essentially asking me to trust that your motives are good, which at this point I don't.

Your reads are all so careful. Your top two scum read is the same as everyone else saying that Vezo fished, which frankly I don't see at all. It's been a crap argument since the first time it was made.

Reread where he asks how Twisted knows if there are cops/doctors. How could twisted have responded to that without revealing whether she knows if there are cops/doctors? Either way, it's fishing for an answer that subtly reveals whether he has knowledge of a PR (and therfore likely is one) or doesn't (and therfore likely isn't one). There was absolutely no way that that question could've been answered without twisted revealing something about his role.

Alternately, we could elect charter executioner instead. If he's scum, he's very unlikely to make a slip on the first day, so your scenario won't come up. Would that make you feel better?

Why would you not want scum to make a slip?

@FF: How do you have a town-read on TS when everyone sees that s/he's rolefishing as well? What do you think that you'll gain from killing TS instead of vezok?

Because I fail to see anywhere that he actually rolefished. His post seemed mostly speculation to me. There was no point where he tried to out anyone's role - he just speculated on the setup as a whole. And I don't think we'll gain anything from killing TS over vezok. TS i have more of a null-leaning town read on, but vezok is definately scummy.

[Final Fires]

Whoops, sorry twisted, didn't mean to use 'she'!

Also, just so you guys know in advance, this is going to be a crazy week for me. I'll try to post as much as I can, but that might only be one or two posts a day. Hopefully once the weekend comes I'll be able to be more active.

If you do an ISO of HC, the bulk of his posts are "Vote Exe for executioner. Now!" That was a little worrying for me. Later on he also suggests that Charter could be executioner. Not gonna lie, it kind of freaks me out that the two people he supports for executioner now are also the two people who supported in the very start - almost like it was planned. Why give a seconday vote on page 2? Or give one at all? Charter hasn't posted much, and when he does I get a null read for it. It just seems like from the very start his play has been calculated around getting one of those two elected as executioner. His most recent post suggests that he doesn't care who is executioner, but his play suggests he does. If that was his strategy, why didn't he come out and say it immediately, rather than waiting until later? Plus that "I don't really care who is executioner" explanation seems like a cop out to me - that way he can't be held responsible if the executioner does turn out to be scum.

[Final Fires]

Vote: Amrun

My top town read, and I agree with his hit list. Although I would prefer if vez was killed over shattered at this point.

Once I have some more time, I'm going to reread this thread looking for any chainsaw defenses. The way this game has been going I'm sure there has been at least one that I've missed.

[Final Fires]

Quick question: what is a chainsaw defense?

Quoted from the wiki (written by Tarhalindur): "The general form of [a chainsaw defense] tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification."

It's worth noting that at the bottom of the page he also put,

"UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here."

Chainsaw defenses aren't something we should base a lynch off of by any means (at least not until one player has flipped scum), but I think they're still worth noting. Especially mutual chainsaw defenses. Doing a chainsaw defense doesn't make someone scum, but in my book it's still scummy.

[Final Fires]

Shatter's change of opinion on 201 seriously confused my read on him. On one hand, parts of it felt sincere, but others felt like distancing. At this point it's hard for me to tell, so he's been moved to my null list. There's no use looking into it right now because everything we could analyze would all be hypothetical; but it might be a good post to come back to once someone has flipped scum. Also, like Charter pointed out, it's a little wierd that suddenly most of his reads turned null.

Tragedy, who are your town reads at the moment? And if you were executioner, who would be in your top three to kill?

Vez still concerns me a lot, but I'm not sure if he's a good day one lynch candidate anymore. However, if he does not come back tommorow with something very convincing, he will be at the top of my list.

Somehow StrungOver is flying under the radar. Why was this post completely ignored? It's odd how some of you only have eyes for a few players. Surely tunneling. We need a read on everyone, we can't spend 3 weeks chasing only the top 3 of Exe. To answer SO's question, how do you know there are any PRs? I can't believe everyone missed this. Surely I should live since I actually care to read every posts and not let players fly under the radar. All players need to be evaluated.

Someone else pointed this out too, but I forget who. However, this post concerns me a lot; it's very similar to the question vez asked twisted earlier. The only difference is that it's phishing for PRs as a whole, not just doctors/cops. There's no way this can be answered without SO revealing something about his role, so I urge SO to ignore this question entirely.

Guys, any and all discussion/speculation about us having PRs has to stop now.

At the beginning the speculation was innocent enough, but it's resulted in way more softclaims than ever should have happened on day one. Twisted is starting to look scummy to me, mainly because of this.

Even if he's town, he's now used his power and is basically a confirmed VT, not someone we want alive. Exe: congrats, you win the worst player award for this game.

If his daykill had been real, I don't see how it's a logical jump to assume that he's confirmed town. In fact, it would be mostly the opposite. Ending the day early, killing before we got a chance to discuss who gets the NK, etc all would've confirmed him as scum for me. And if he had been town and did kill a scum, I also don't see the logic in killing him off. Can you explain why your first reaction would be to assume he's confirmed VT?

As for the VTs should die point, I think that's something we shouldn't worry about until we actually have to deal with a VT claim.

Amrun's & FF's responses seem pretty pro-town. Interesting.
Umbrage, your vengeance kill request on me is really anti-town. Intentionally killing a townie? Looks like I was right for suspecting you.
I still want to hear what TS has to say for himself. Hopefully he'll post before the mod does.

Can you explain which responses you were talking about (in regards to am and myself)? Our responses to the fake daykill or our responses as a whole?

Last thing though, Exe needs to live.

Can you expand on this? Specifically what makes you feel this way?

Oh and Vezo is so obv-town it hurts. The case on him is still crap, even though he stupidly claimed.

Do you have any reason for thinking this? Specifically, what has vez done that makes you so confident he's town?

[Final Fires]

@Mod, could we get a votecount?

If more than half of the people alive want me to claim I will claim.

I know this goes against my last post when I said we should stop speculation on PRs has a whole, but I think this is an exception. Every single person playing the game at this point knows that vez has a power.

I thought about the hints he's dropped, and I can not think of a single role that would need to know who the doctors/cops are, except for maybe a doctor. However, if vez were a doctor he wouldn't be saying "just let me live tonight!". I can't think of a single role that satisfies the hints he's dropped us. In fact, I can't think of a role at all that so urgently needs just one night, for whatever reason.

If he is town, and we did make him claim, the only thing that would be different is that we now know what his role is. Whether or not he has revealed his role, he will still be the first one killed by the mafia, once [or if] they gain control of the NK. Scum don't need to know what role a PR has for it to be a good kill.

If he is scum, and we made him claim, a lot would be different. His whole "let me live one more night!" ordeal would make a lot more sense. If he is scum, and we did catch him phishing for roles, it would make sense for him to fake a PR and ask for one night; because if we did lynch him today, that could lose his team the nightkill.

Vez, please don't claim yet.

I want a discussion on this before we decide if it's a good idea or not. However, as of now I can't really see any cons to him claiming; he's good as dead either way. The only difference is that by allowing this to go on for one more day, he has the potential to net his team a nightkill if he is scum.

Also, I would read over vez's iso. The more I read it the more I felt like he was scummy.

In other news, Umbrage/Exe's argument didn't really raise any points that convinced me the other was scum. It just seemed like they were arguing semantics, especially meta and VIs.

Tragedy, who are your town reads?

[Final Fires]

Vezo shouldn't claim unless we plan to kill him. That's the simple fact.
In the event that we plan to kill him at night, he should claim. However, if not, we shouldn't, as then we leave some WIFOM for scum if they do gain control of the kill.

How would him revealing his role give scum any more WIFOM than them knowing he has a PR? And what's necessarily bad about scum having WIFOM? (The latter is more a newb a question than anything.)

If I am elected Executioner, I will only execute the player that a majority of the town tells me to execute, regardless of my personal feelings on said player.

My stance on this is a lot like Exe's. I would take the majority's opinion into consideration, but in the end I wouldn't execute anyone who I thought I thought was innocent.

Going into this game, I actually thought that if the executioner listened to the town over himself, then that would be a scum tell. Obviously that's not the case anymore, but I will still be a little suspicious if any player executes someone who they have a town read on, just because of town pressure. There are exceptions, but we'll cross that bridge once we get to it.

@FF: I guess you're right... But at this point vezok looks so scummy that whatever he claims, I probably won't believe it. I mean, realistically speaking, if vezok claimed doctor and I was the doctor, I wouldn't say ANYTHING, not a counterclaim, nothing. I think vezok will die anyway and I wouldn't risk myself.

It depends on what exactly he claims on whether or not there should be a counterclaim. Depends on the situation. In the one you stated, I agree the doctor shouldn't counterclaim.

[Final Fires]

@mod - I'm pretty sure that twisted switched his vote from me to Am.

That means that Am is one vote away from executioner. I have no problem if anyone wants to seal the deal and cast their vote for her.

I think that Vezo should

not

reveal his role if we don't plan to kill him. The reason for this is that then scum will have to decide for sure if Vezo is telling the truth or if he is just bluffing, which forces them to make a harder decision. If we force Vezo to claim, but don't plan to kill him, then we risk the chance that scum get the kill AND know exactly whether or not they need to kill Vezo.
And, to your second part, if you understand this part now, I think you'll see that I meant that scum having WIFOM is a good thing.

This makes sense, and you bring up some good points. What really concerns me though is this "one more night" defense that he's using. If a scum survives one more night in this game, that's two more votes for their team. However, I admit that right now what you're saying makes more sense than what I was suggesting earlier.

He had better produce something very good on Day 2. If he doesn't then I will want a claim. Especially if tonight's NK ends up in the mafia's hands.

And yes, I was talking about right now. But Exe's explanation made me realize it was a bad idea.

[Final Fires]

Whoops, screwed up those quotes. It was just exe talking, not me in the quotes.

[Final Fires]

I think whether or not to use the NK is situational, and something we should decide later down the road. Right now, I think we should be talking about who gets executed. I reread the first five pages of this thread, which caused me to question a few of my previous reads. Here are all of my current opinions, some of them a little rushed because I got sick of typing. (Sorry for this huge wall of text!)

Tragedy

: She avoided giving reads for a long time, and refuses to explain her analysis on her town reads. If you do an ISO of her, it seems like she thinks almost everyone is scum, and is trying to shed suspicion on everyone. Look at post #8 by her. She criticizes almost every single answer given, and essentially expresses concern with most of the player's gameplay. It just seems like it was an attempt to stir up paranoia amongst players. In all fairness, she does also say SV is neutral, and TS is sexy. She says Am is her only town read - but that something is "wrong". I have a null leaning scum read on her at the moment. Tragedy, can you explain what you meant by "something else doesn't seem right in this game"?

Ant

: I get a pro-town vibe from most of his posts, and I agree with a lot of what he says. He's brief, but to the point. Not much else to say about him.

HC

: Almost all of his posts have revolved around trying to get an executioner elected. I also feel like he has done almost no scum hunting since this has started; hopefully this will change now that we've elected Am. My read on him is null.

Am

: My top town read. I didn't find anything suspicious about her on a second read through either.

Strungover

: Has somehow managed to lurk his way through all sixteen pages. As of now, he's posted nothing that's not complete fluff. I would fully support a SO execution or NK. His first post was just RVS, where he voted Exe and just said, "obv scum". Second post, he changed his vote from exe to himself. In his third post he proposes a mass claim (!?). As if that's not bad enough, he suggested it while we were only on page three. I can see absolutely no reason why anyone would be suggesting a mass claim so early in this setup. On his next post he switches back to voting for exe, his reasoning being because "he's legit". In the end he reproposes my no lynch suggestion, which at this point seems out of question considering the conversation that we've generated. (It's worth noting tragedy pointed this out too, which is why she's a null read for me rather than scum.)

Charter

: Charter, in one of your first posts you said "axe" was scum. Were you refering to exe? At the start I had a scummy read on Charter, but it's evolving into a town one. His first six posts all seemed very suspicious to me, but from seven onwards he starts to look town. His buddying with exe concerns me, and he seems to base most of his reads off of the assumption that Exe is town. I don't like how he said:

I'd also kill scum immediately upon being elected.

And attempts to defend this as a good idea later, saying scum could weasel their way out of it if they weren't killed immediately. Upon even more questioning, he says that 'he thought we had already worked this out and he wouldn't execute until we decided a NK'. That in itself isn't necessarily a scum tell, but it still concerned me. Also, his case against umbrage seemed to be mainly that umbrage disagree with his reads. And I did not like this post at all:

It's probably more because me and Haschel are awesome. I haven't played with Exe before, but he seems pretty awesome too. There is nothing worse in mafia than days that drag on. Today is going to drag on. I can tell it already. We have the double duty of spending forever electing someone before we kill someone. It's going to take twice as long and leave twice the amount of muck to sift through on later days.

However, from post 7 onwards he starts looking more town, and begins to bring up good points. For now I have a null read on him, but it's starting to lean a little town.

Umbrage

: Difficult for me to read. I'm leaning town on him, because I've found myself agreeing with a lot of what he says; and admittedly a little gut. He was tunneled on exe for a while, but I didn't find it particularly scummy. Not much else to say about him.

Exe

: Difficult for me to read, because almost everything he does can be considered either very townie or very scummy. At the start of the game especially he seemed scummy to me, but as the game progresses he seems more town. Right now I have a null-leaning town read on him. It still concerns me how much buddying was happening with him early game, Vez in particular. He tries very hard to get the position of executioner early on, but again, that falls back to him being either very towny or very scummy. One post of his that bothered me a little:

Waiting for the MIA people is meh. There's like 1 person, meaning at most one THIRD of the scumteam. I'd bet my dignity on the fact that at least 1 of the scum are active right now, and if you disagree you can die for it

He acts like he's very confident that there are three scum. This is a view he keeps consistant throughout the game. However, as the game progresses his posts are becoming more pro-town too. I think my opinion of him will become more cemented once we have one or two flips.

Vezok

: I've made my opinion pretty clear on him in my posts. He is my top scum read, but I'm willing to let him pass today, although he better produce something worthwhile tommorow. Vez, can you please finish this statement you started to make in your first post:

Fortunately I call for help. It's...

Cooldog

: He thinks this is a very odd game mechanic. Buddys to me, exe, and ant on his first post. Agrees with ant on how the exe bandwagon is moving too fast, with his only reasoning being "i just agreed with someone, deal with it". From the very little he's posted I get a scum read. His lack of posts makes him one of my less confident reads, but I would be for a cooldog lynch.

Shattered

: Another very difficult read for me, due to the brevity of his posts. He buddys to exe in his first post. He attacks several people who disagree with exe, but when called out on his has a change of heart, and begins to play more conservatively. Also, I do not like this post from him at all:

Stop it, your scummy is showing.

I know someone else pointed that out, but it bothered me too. It seems almost like coaching on how to not look scummy to HC. I have a null, leaning scum read on him, but he is also one of my weaker reads.

Twisted

: Twisted confuses me a lot, and I go back and forth on my read on him. I agree with a lot of what he says, but rereading I realized he's doing a ton of buddying to a lot of people. On his first post alone he buddies up to exe, a little bit myself (he buddies me much more later on), and ant. Throughout the entire game it feels like he's been buddying a lot, Plus I really did not like his rolefish. His play is passive and he seems careful not to step on other people's toes. That could be a little scummy, but I get the sense it's just his playstyle. For now he's leaning scum. I would support a twisted lynch tonight.

Sorry guys, I tried to be detailed but got sick of typing. Here's my final conclusion:

Lynches I support (not in any particular order):

1. Tragedy
2. Strungover
3. Cooldog
4. Twisted

Discuss.

[Final Fires]

@ Final Fires and somewhat to Amrun: I can't help but notice you're picking on players who are absent or haven't made much content. Going after weak players like that strikes me as scummy. We shouldn't be hunting minnows, let's fry the big fish. Go for the scum that are active. Charter. SV. Exe. Vezok.

I have a gut read of SO as scum and CD as town. But that's just gut. I'm not willing to decide a kill on it. Going for one of them is a cop-out. A lottery. Maybe scum, maybe lurky town. Who knows?

I don't like how FF mentions an SO kill, then Exe and Amrun are suddenly all over it. I have a feeling an SO bandwagon will attract scum like shit attracts flies.

It would be very easy for scum to lie low and completely avoid suspicion the way this game has been going. So far it's all of the players who have been posting frequently who have been accused of being scum (twisted, yourself, exe, etc), and there's been almost no talk of those who don't post as much (the only exception being vez). I don't want this to turn into a game where the town tears itself apart, and the scum get a free pass because we ignored the lurkers.

What's your opinion on Tragedy?

I'm sick guys I'm really sorry. I will read the thread during N1...

I'm sorry that you're sick, and I hope you feel better.

However, my accusation against you lurking still stands. Especially because the last time you posted in this thread was the 13th, but you did post in other threads on the 14th, 15th, and 16th.

[Final Fires]

And also,

Wait, two posts ago I was lurkerscum, now I'm activescum because there's talk of killing a lurker. Can't have both there. Looks like one of the lurkers is the last scum with Umbrage and Ant.

Can you clarify what you meant by this and who it was directed to?

[Final Fires]

ya I posted tiny things telling the mods I was sick and would have limited access,

First of all, my bad on the last post. You did post on the 14th in this thread, I just missed it.

You weren't especially active in any of your other games, I'll give you that. But you did more than 'little things'; you voted and claimed. Both of these significant actions suggest that you at least kept up with those threads.

For now I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I'm keeping you on my scumdar.

[Final Fires]

This is from a while ago, but...

And now Umbrage is clawing for scumbag of the year. His list in 142 is wrong. His town reads are all the scummy people and everyone he doesn't list as town looks quite town.

Why were you so confident umbrage's town list was wrong?

Third, I'm pretty sure Axe is scum.

Who were you refering to as "axe"? Exe?

Also, I noticed a small contradiction here:

Third, I'm pretty sure Axe is scum.

Who were you refering to as "axe"? Exe?

Also, I noticed a small contradiction here:

You accuse me of tunneling, and call me scum for it, but you're tunneling on me just as much. Tunneling isn't a scumtell in my book, but your selective application of logic sure is.

However, earlier when Twisted was accused of sheeping and responded by saying that his attacker was sheeping too, Charter called him scum for it and said:

If the attack wasn't valid, he would have an easy time showing that. TS initially perceived the accusation as valid, and responded scummily. That's what's scummy.

I think this has been asked, but I don't think it's been answered.

Meanwhile, there's only WITCHES, as some would obviously read and notice from their Role PM as well, amIRight?

What was meant by this?

@Umbrage: I just came back from school just now and gotta pick up my bros.
More content later, but YOU.

You're just trying to distance yourself away since I have no content yet

..

Is it just me or is this a scum slip? Scum don't distance from townies. Townies don't distance from scum. Town doesn't distance from town. Only scum distance from scum.

[Final Fires]

I'm glad SO is finally posting, even if I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I tend to find Vezo to be scummy generally any way, but with my strong scum reads on Exe and FF this comes across even scummier. He buddies, calls him REALLY TOWN, says that he has expirience with him being mafia and blah blah blah. Plus off topics after a buddying post != good.

I don't see how vez buddies to me at all. In fact, I would say he's done the opposite so far.

Exe has a lot of connections with Vezo and FF. They happen to be my top three scum suspects so I don't think that's a cawinkydink.

What connections does he have to me?

[quoteu="SO]

@Umbrage - You're right, it would be a huge risk. However, it could have a big payoff too. Five scum seems a little unreasonable though. I would view the nightkill more as our lynch; we all agree beforehand who is getting the nightkill (like exe said) and then we agree who they will kill.

Again the ties with Exe keep flying in! Also if we plan and discuss who we kill all the time it is bad. First off Mafia know who they are! And town are clueless, so Mafia can sheep townies easy enough in a normal set up, so in a set up with even higher of a mafia to town ratio it is worse.[/quote]

I don't think it's fair to say that agreeing with Exe on one thing is a connection. Especially when it's something like agreeing who will receive the nightkill.

However, I do believe we just caught our first scum.

SO, how do you know that there's a higher mafia to town ratio than a normal game? That's not knowledge a townie would have,

The rest of his points against me aren't really scum tells, more him grasping at straws. If anyone would like me to address anything else he said, point it out and I'll do so, I just don't want to waste my time defending things like why I suggested a time table.

[Final Fires]

Yeah, I don't think much help is needed. I just wanted to point out that (in my book anyways) it confirmed him as scum because he revealed having knowledge of the number of mafia.

[Final Fires]

There's a difference between speculating and knowing. I was very unsure of the number of mafia. The way you said it wasn't in the least bit doubtful.

Compare how I said:

I would be willing to bet that there are four scum players, because that would give them a total of eight votes. That means it only takes one dead townie, or two depending on what happens in a tie, for them to be able to use their nightkill. I would be surprised if there were three scum players or less, because that means that they only have six votes. It would take three dead townies before they had access to the kill; which in a game this small seems like a long time. There could always be two teams or a SK, but that would also surprise me in this setup.

To how you said:

[...] so in a set up with even higher of a mafia to town ratio it is worse.

Plus,

Also the fact that you want me killed on the basis of we suggesting that we have more mafia than in normal games is dumb.

But just last page you accused you accused me of being scum because I "seemed to know too much about the set up", and linked to the post that I quoted. If you agreed with my reasoning, why would you list it as a scum tell against me?

[Final Fires]

And you also put (in the same post):

THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST THING I'VE SEEN IN A LONG TIME! If there are even just 3 or 4 mafia, if they all vote for someone that's 4 or 6 votes. So if There are 4 mafia, then if even 1 towny doesn't vote on who we agree on during the day then mafia get a kill.

My thoughts exactly. Speculation just allows the mafia to sieze the moment and sheep townies out of it.

[Final Fires]

@ FF
Dumby everything I've said is in one post >.>
Also why do you care what I said about Exe?

Why wouldn't I when it contradicts what you said about ant?

Because he wasn't able to defend his contradiction in his post, he instead asks this. And...

I said you seemed to know to much about the set up that doesn't mean I only linked to that post for your knowledge of number of players. You also seemed very concerned about how the mafia got to night kill.

That actually was the only post that he mentioned for my alleged knowledge of number of players.

[Final Fires]

@ FF-The first thing you quoted me on

wasn't speculation

it was giving a reason to why Exe was scummy. Telling people not to vote for the person the town decides to elect as the NK'r is REALLY SCUMMY! it only gives the mafia more votes. That was Exe's first and biggest slip.

Right. You just admitted you weren't speculating on the number of scum; therfore we can assume you knew how many scum there were. And if you have knowledge of the number of scum, then it's also a logical conclusion that you are scum.

[Final Fires]

WOW! You can mis rep like no other.
Just because I'm not speculating something doesn't mean I'm part of that something or know everything about it!
I'm not speculating about how many weeds there are in my yard, but that doesn't mean I'm a weed or that I know how many of them there are.

That analogy doesn't apply to this situation. There are only two categories here:

Townies: Have no knowledge of how many scum there are. Would need to speculate on how many scum there are.
Scum: Have knowledge of how many scum there are. Don't need to speculate on how many scum there are.

Also, can you explain the contradiction I pointed out on post 473?

[Final Fires]

This is what I've been talking about the whole time!
The are unrelated thoughts not contraindication. Exe was trying to get people to not vote for a NK'r. That it what the first quote is responding to. The second one is simply me agreeing with ant.

I realize one thought was about Exe, and the other was about Ant. But they still contradict each other.

And you're accusing me of misrepping, when you're the one who blantantly twisted several people's posts while attacking them. For example:

NEXT: IF YOU DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT IN YOUR NIGHT KILL, JUST DON'T KILL.

THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST THING I'VE SEEN IN A LONG TIME! If there are even just 3 or 4 mafia, if they all vote for someone that's 4 or 6 votes. So if There are 4 mafia, then if even 1 towny doesn't vote on who we agree on during the day then mafia get a kill.

Exe was saying if you had the night kill and weren't sure who to kill with it, don't kill anyone. You took it out of context and tried to suggest he was saying not to vote for a NK'r.

Good news: TS isn't dying.

So he makes one good post and now you don't think he's scum? No that's not it. You realize that people don't actually find TS scummy so you jump off the wagon!

Here, Exe was just saying that his daykill was fake. You took it out of context and tried to make it look like he was getting off the twisted wagon.

Also, I think it's important for us to have two plans for the nightkill. Like, "If Player A flips scum, we'll give the nightkill to Player B who will kill Player C, but if he flips town we'll give the nightkill to Player C who will kill Player B."

NO! God this is simply saying oh hey mafia this is who you should kill if you get the vote!!!! It's like talking in twilight, a very scummy suggestion.

Here he didn't misrep me, but instead begins to grasp at straws. Essentially every point he's made against me is grasping at straws. At one point he says I'm scummy for suggesting a time table. And his "connections" between me and vezo are just that I've accused him of being scum, therefore I'm distancing from him. That's obviously a flawed argument. I agreed with exe once (on that we should coordinate who gets the NK) and he claims that tied us together. And he says I

Haschel, if the Executioner executes who we (as Town) agree on, whether or not that player flips Town, we still should follow through with our agreed nightkill.

Make sense?

First really scummy thing from shattered. Town should not still vote the person they agreed on regaurdless of the flip(which is why I'm against planning it). After that person flips they have connections and ties to other players that HAVE to be taken into account.

SO takes this out of context of the conversation. HC said that he would vote for the same person to give the NK as the executioner, but would change his vote if the executioner killed a townie. Shattered, as far as my understanding went, was just saying that he needs to vote for the agreed NK'r no matter who flips town, or else the mafia will definately get the NK. Otherwise it would've made no sense why Shattered quoted HC, because if he were talking about the nightkill it would've been an unrelated thought.

Twisted went rolefshing in his VERY FIRST POST. All that setup speculation, tossing out the possibility of "investigative roles" and "protective roles" -- why not just ask the cop and the doc to raise their hands?

Wow OMGUS! Anyway he didn't ask for them to raise there hands he made a valid point. Also nice way to deffend Vezo there.

First of all, I don't see how there's any OMGUS. And SO contradicts himself again. He say speculation is bad, but Twisted was speculating on all the ways the night could go and here SO says it's a "valid point". And I don't see any defense of Vezo in this post either.

SO, I know that you're going to accuse me of defending Exe and Shattered, but I made no defense for them. I just pointed out how you misrepped them.

For what it's worth, I think shattered is starting to lurk. I'm pretty sure I saw him reading this thread yesterday, but he never posted.

Also, Tragedy, I still would like an explanation of what you meant when you said Umbrage was distancing from you.

[Final Fires]

FF your chainsaw defense of Exe is noted also. A vezo lynch?

Look how he isn't able to respond to any of my points, so he tries to brush it off by posting this.

He is my top scum read, and I think we should execute him today.

[Final Fires]

(Today meaning on Day one, night like THIS day in real life.)

[Final Fires]

*not.

Ugg, sorry for triple posting ><

[Final Fires]

This is getting no where, so I'm going to stop posting for tonight.

There was not a single defense of Exe in that last post. Quote one thing that was a defense of exe, instead of an explanation on how you misrepped him. Or at least respond to the points that weren't about exe.

[Final Fires]

I'm on my phone I'll do it tomorrow. And btw by telling me how I mis repped him and why what I said about him wasn't true you defended him! Some one kill vezo exe and ff the are the scum. 90 percent sure.

If that's how you judge it, then why not accuse me of defending shattered? Or Am of defending me?

[Final Fires]

Umbrage, what was your opinion on SO's post with his reads on everybody? Do you think his arguments are valid? What's your overall read on SO?

Tragedy, please don't dodge this question again. What did you mean when you said you were distancing from umbrage?

[Final Fires]

*My question to tragedy was supposed to be: What did you mean when you said umbrage was distancing from you?

[Final Fires]

I read SO as town who thinks he's always right. I'm not backing up his flawed arguments. SO doesn't concern me right now, I'm concerned over the sudden bandwagon that has formed on him.

Why do you think he's town, when all you have to judge him by are his flawed arguments?

[Final Fires]

Aww, Am ninja'd it.

[Final Fires]

Well, two scum found on Day one; Umbrage and SO. I'm down for an execution for either of them. I'm sure everyone can figure out why Umbrage is scum at this point, but I'll just point out some of the contradictions:

Really? Prove it. Until you do, you're just wasting everyone's time with pointless speculation and slander.

But just a few posts before he has pointless speculation and slander:

I can see a few potential scum teams in this mess:

Amrun/Final Fires/Exe: This one actually makes a lot of sense. They distance each other, but never say they want another one dead. Exe acts out, Amrun reels him in, they distract the town and Amrun gets townie points. Final Fires proposes one strategy early in the game, Exe says he's wrong and proposes something else. Either way, one of them is a town leader. The more I think about it, the more likely this seems.

Shattered Viewpoint/vezokpiraka/Exe: Notice how SV and vezok jump on the SO wagon, riding on the coattails of the bigger players. Also note how Exe never found the other two scummy in this game. SO listed all three of them on his scum list, there's some more lovely motivation to jump on his wagon.

Tragedy/Shattered Viewpoint/Final Fires: It's likely that the scum have different activity levels. These three players have been more or less ignoring each other all game. FF reads SV as slightly scum to null all game, but won't really say much about him or give a definite read. SV has nothing on FF.

This was how his reads on SO have changed throughout the game:

CooLDoG is being replaced, isn't he? And StrungOver is on V/LA. I do NOT like killing players that are absent. I want to see them make some more content first. Same goes for Tragedy.

Although ironically, he has suggested that Tragedy is scum because of her activity level. See quote above.

Actually, Vezok saying SO is a good kill proves my point, a wagon on an absent player will draw out the scum. Vezok just became more scummy.

First chainsaw defense of SO.

What did I tell you? An SO wagon will draw scum.

Like Exe pointed out too, if he had a scummy read on someone, how would a bandwagon on them draw out scum? Plus, most people weren't on board until after SO started posting, making his earlier argument of SO drawing scum invalid.

Show me where I said SO was town. Because I actually said I had a gut read of scum on him.

So he thought SO was scum. But was also trying to stop an SO lynch. But then he also thought I was scum for proposing SO be executed. Anyone else see a problem with this?

I read SO as town who thinks he's always right. I'm not backing up his flawed arguments. SO doesn't concern me right now, I'm concerned over the sudden bandwagon that has formed on him.

The only read he has on SO is his flawed arguments. What could possibly lead him to the assumption that SO's town if that's all that he's had to read? His gut. But just a few posts up she said she had a scum gut read on him. Whoops! That's why he refused to answer mine and Am's quesiton; he knew he would get caught in a lie. If he had any good or pro-town reason for doing so, he would've pointed them out instead of essentially saying that he couldn't answer the question.

The fact that he busted out a chainsaw defense (his long post where he says me, Am, Shattered, and Vez are scummy for suspecting SO) for SO really concerned me too. He had a strong town read on me the entire game, and then suddenly when I put suspicion on SO he put me as one of his scummiest reads. He did this with Am too. I asked him those questions on 525 to try to get a read on what motivated the chainsaw defense, but the fact that he dodged them shows that there was no pro-town reason; answering them would just reveal that. Townies can use chainsaw defences, but only when they feel confident the player they're defending is town. Umbrage said that he had a 'gut feeling' that SO was scum. That's not the kind of person you chainsaw defend, unless they're you're scum partner.

Is anyone in opposition to executing Umbrage or SO tonight? If no one's in opposition, we can start to talk about the NK.

[Final Fires]

Welcome Sateal!

I can see pros and cons to both sides of the argument for the nightkill. I think we shouldn't worry about it too much until we decide who we want to execute, then we can have an indepth discussion on what should be done about it.

Umbrage, you still have dodged the question why you think SO is town. This is all that you have to judge him by: RVS, suggesting a mass claim, and arguments full of misrep and logical fallacies. If you're entire argument is that you don't want to go after someone who's not producing enough content, why are you still against an SO execution? He has begun to produce content, and none of it's pro-town.

That's called scumhunting. I've backed up all those possible scum teams with reasoning and logic as to why they are likely scum teams. If you disagree, then provide a proper counter-argument instead of brushing it all under the carpet.

You just provided three weak mafia teams, with no real reasoning. If you don't have a case on someone that's independent of other people, it's not a good case. That's not scum hunting, it's just pointless speculation and mudslinging. Give me any three players and I can reason how they're on the same scum team.

Although ironically, he has suggested that Tragedy is scum because of her activity level.

Wrong. Try again. I did not say I found Tragedy town. I said I did not want her killed until she could provide more content.

I never said you said Tragedy was town. I said that you said Tragedy was scum; you're only reasoning was because "it's likely the scum have different activity levels". That was the only thing you put against Tragedy in your case against her. Why would Tragedy be scum for having a different activity level, but not SO?

I made a prediction that scum would jump on the wagon. One of the players who is considered to be scummy by most of us here jumped on the wagon. I pointed this out. How the hell is that a chainsaw defence?

Definition of a chainsaw defense: "A player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum." Now compare this to how you defended SO by attacking Vez:

Actually, Vezok saying SO is a good kill proves my point, a wagon on an absent player will draw out the scum. Vezok just became more scummy.

Plus by saying that, you put player's under the illusion that if they say anything about SO, they'll look scum. Scaring players out of discussing SO is not pro-town.

First off, you make it sound like SO just magically appeared. He was posting before now, enough for me to get a feel for the kind of player he is. I knew he was an easy target. Scum or town, he is an easy target. And going after easy targets is anti-town.

SO is going after vezok. Wouldn't that make him anti-town, because vez is an easy target at this point?

Try again. My read on SO, when I was pushed to give one, was based on a gut feeling from a few posts of his. But

even if I was absolutely sure he was scum, I would not want him killed until he made some content.

Understand? It is anti-town to go after easy targets and lurking players. Scum want those easy targets to be lynched, so they will flock to the wagon. I stand by that logic, logic which shows you are possible scum. Now you are either not reading my posts, or deliberately misinterpreting them.

I don't like the bolded part of this post at all. But under that reasoning, why did you accuse of Vezok and Tragedy of being scum? Aren't they just as easy targets, who at this point have made just as little content? In fact, SO has actually posted more than either of them have.

Allow me to answer this with a question: why are so concerned over my gut read? That's all it was. Gut. Best guess. I had next to nothing to go on. If you honestly think that he hasn't posted enough to evaluate that read, this is obviously your first mafia game. It's not that I find SO totally town. It's that the reactions to his bandwagon are WAY worse than anything he's done. At this point, it's not who's scummy, you're all scummy. It's who's the most scummy.

This contradicts itself. You say you had next to nothing to go on, but then in the next sentence you say that he has posted enough to evaluate a read.

[Final Fires]

Guys, why are you egging Umbrage on? I didn't read any of this page because it's pointless. Umbrage is scum. No matter how many words she types, her role pm stays the same. So we don't need to assplode the thread.

^This. He hasn't provided one good defense, and I've heard all that I need to. At this point it just feels like he's stalling, same with SO. No one has objected to an Umbrage or SO kill at this point. The only thing that's going to happen by dragging this out is that it will give them the potential to deflect the wagon on to someone else.

Here's where I stand in the nightkill:

We execute umbrage/SO. He flips scum. Odds are pretty good that the other is scum; go ahead and NK the other.

We execute umbrage/SO. He flips towns. We just lost one town night vote for the NK. If we choose to NK someone, we risk losing two town votes for the NK. Worst case scenario, the next day we also execute a townie; we just lost a ton of power very quickly. I think it's better to take it slow and be cautious with our NK. The quicker we kill people off, the more chances we have of making mistakes. The more mistakes we make, the faster the scum will gain possession of the NK.

As for who gets the NK, I would feel the best if Am got it again. However I wouldn't be against Charter or Exe taking it either, because they've been very vocal for a Umbrage/SO execution.

[Final Fires]

@ FF: You have got to be kidding me. You just refused to listen to my defence, and instead just pushed for my kill. How nice. Apparently for you, the last couple pages have given you far more information about how the scum is than the entirety of the game. I find that hard to believe.

I listened to your defense, but none of it swayed my opinion.

I've already stated why I think SO is town. Maybe I could give a better read on him if I didn't have to defend myself from all this bullshit.

Saying you can't get a good read on SO because you're being attacked doesn't make sense.

Try again. I've given my reasoning for why I believe those are potential teams. If you disagree, ARGUE MY LOGIC. Don't try this shit about how if it's not on a single person, it's worthless.

There's no arguing that I can do, because you proved no points. Like I said, anyone can point out connections between people, and then use guesswork to reason why these connections are there. Once we have some flips we can start drawing connections between people, but until then it's just pointless speculation.

I've already said I find Tragedy scummy, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate. But here's something to add: hopping on my wagon.

I understand you find Tragedy scummy. It just conflicts with how you think I'm scummy for accusing SO of being scummy. You accuse Tragedy of being scummy for her activity level, but then when I point out the lurkers I become scummy? That doesn't make sense to me. Plus you're whole "easy target" thing - vez and tragedy are two of the three easiest targets right now. You can't accuse everyone who goes after SO of being scum because SO is an easy target, and then turn around and say vez and tragedy are scum; because they're both easy targets. What bothers me is not that you find SO town and vez and tragedy scum. It's that you've only applied your "easy target" reasoning as a way to keep discussion off of SO.

If you think there is no difference between a bandwagon and a good case, and that town cannot tell the difference, hit yourself over the head RIGHT NOW.

You keep saying that the SO bandwagon is wrong because it will draw scum. However, you have not pointed out one flaw in the arguments against him yet.

Right now you're not against the case against SO; you're against SO getting lynched.

You said you were against him getting lynched because he wasn't producing content; however now he's produced plenty of content, so that argument is invalid. I don't understand why you're still protecting him then; it only makes sense that you two are scum buddies or masons. Masons makes zero sense, because you said cooldog was scummy earlier.

This is something that I questioned SO about.

I went from your top town read to your top scum read because I accused an "easy target". However, you don't seem that troubled that SO is going after one.

Well, for one thing, Vezok has his guard dog Exe defending him. And my case on Tragedy grew as her content did.

A significant reason I think you're scum is because you've been SO's guard dog, not only defending, but chainsaw defending if need be. And (unless I'm forgetting something, which I might be), the only case you've made on Tragedy is that:

1. Her activity level
2. She joined your bandwagon

Nonono, NOW he's posted enough that my previous read on him is worthless.

Ok, then you wouldn't have a problem telling me what he posted that changed your mind.

What did he post that convinced you he was town?

[Final Fires]

SO, what's the difference from Exe laughing off accusations, and Umbrage doing this:

I'm not trying to defend myself. Make a proper case against me and I'll defend myself.

And I will not respond to every single argument made against me, mainly because there is no point in responding. If you want to interpret every single thing I do as scummy, I can't stop you. Have fun with that.

And on a scale of 1 to 10, how certain are you that Umbrage is town?

[Final Fires]

And same question to Umbrage: On a scale of 1 to 10, how sure are you that SO is town?

And Set, who are your other suspicions and town reads?

[Final Fires]

[quote+"Umbrage"]I find SO slightly town for a few reasons, mainly because it seems odd for newbie scum to play so aggressively, to not be shaken by the wagon on them. I think much of the case on him is exaggerated, and points more toward newbie than scum. Considering that he hasn't been keeping up with the thread, I would be more surprised if none of his arguments were wrong.
[/quote]

Playing the newbie card isn't a good defense for him. This is my second game of mafia, but you still consider me scum even though I've "played aggressively" and didn't back when you accused me of scum. It doesn't worry me that you defend SO; it's that you pick and choose who you who you want your ideals to apply to (and the contradictions). Plus, none of his arguments have been right either.

Most of the attacks on me depend on the fact that I find SO town. AKA I did not jump on the bandwagon when it came around. That's because I knew someone had to stay objective. You've already got an army of scum bandwagoners backing you. I'm not going to become a sheep just to avoid negative attention.

The attacks on you aren't based on the fact that you find SO town. It's the fact that you find him so town you're willing to chainsaw defend him, even with no valid reason to. I see no reason why a townie would do that. Like I mentioned earlier, you haven't refuted one point in the case against SO. You don't disagree with the case against SO; you disagree with him being lynched. That concerns me.

IGMEO everyone who supported the idea of lynching or night killing lurkers. Besides hoping to hit scum, our kills need to give us as much information as possible. Scum would be thrilled if we take out lurkers and thereby get almost no information for the next day.

Unless I'm mistaking, haven't your top scum reads been Shattered, Tragedy, and Vez? And aren't all three of those lurkers?

As for StrungOver, I am not sure if killing him today would be the best idea. Yeah, some of the things he said was wrong, but I have also liked some of his other points. I feel he could go either way, but I don't feel strong enough him like my other picks to kill him off right now.

Just out of curiousity, what did he post that you liked? Everyone who doesn't think he's scum keeps saying he posts

some

good things, but I haven't seen one pro-town thing out of him yet.

[Final Fires]

Wow, I'm not sure if this is just my computer, but it looks like my post glitched and went to post 623, even though it was supposed to be here. Go check it out if you missed it.

[Final Fires]

My vote for the execution still stands on Umbrage.

Vote: Umbrage

He says that he thinks executing lurkers is bad, but then goes on ahead and suggests vezok and Tragedy as viable executions. I seriously see no difference between bandwagoning one of those two than SO. He reasons that the reason he thinks an SO wagon is bad is because everyone has jumped on it and no one has defended him, but here's how the three compare:

SO: Has had umbrage jump to his (chainsaw only) defense. Shetael has defended him to a much lesser degree, saying only that it feels like an opportunistic wagon.
Vez: Has had Exe jump to his (occassionally chainsaw) defense, and vice versa.
Tragedy: No one has come to her defense, although I could be wrong.

If anything, SO is the most viable lynch out of all the lurkers.

In addition umbrage still hasn't pointed out one good reason why he thinks SO is town. I can understand when he says that he doesn't want to defend SO, but the fact that he attacks players for even suggesting SO is scummy, without pointing out any flaws in the argument against SO, raises a red flag for me.

I would also be for a SO execution, but I think we would learn more from an Umbrage one. I would be ok with a SV or Tragedy kil, although we would learn next to nothing. Vez is still towards the top of my list, and I'm not sure how to approach his request for one night. For now I'm leaning grant it, and execute him tommorow if he doesn't produce something good.

I have good reason to think each of those 3 are possibly scum. It's when the ONLY reason given for wanting to lynch someone is their activity level that I get suspicious.

Who in particular has done this?

[Final Fires]

For the night kill, I'll quote when I said earlier:

We execute umbrage. He flips scum. Odds are pretty good that SO is scum; go ahead and NK him.

We execute umbrage. He flips towns. We just lost one town night vote for the NK. If we choose to NK someone, we risk losing two town votes for the NK. Worst case scenario, the next day we also execute a townie; we just lost a ton of power very quickly. I think it's better to take it slow and be cautious with our NK. The quicker we kill people off, the more chances we have of making mistakes. The more mistakes we make, the faster the scum will gain possession of the NK.

As for who gets the NK, I would feel the best if Am got it again. However I wouldn't be against Charter or Exe taking it either, because they've been very vocal for a Umbrage/SO execution.

If Am tries anything crazy, I'd be ok with Charter taking it. However, I would want him to do no-kill, so we can discuss what happened and get peoples reactions to it beforehand. This is more dependent on what exactly Am did; depending on the situation I would leave it up to Charter's judgement.

We need to reach a consensus that we're all going to vote for the same person, even if you dislike the final NK decision. If you are not ok with giving someone who's being considered a NK, you need to speak up now. It's better that the townies get the kill no matter what, than for the mafia to get it and be able to weaken the town.

Is anyone in objection to my plan?

[Final Fires]

I'm good with Exe's plan. I think it's time for Umbrage to claim.

I feel very good about this execution. Townies don't defend other townies like Umbrage defended SO. The way Umbrage reacted to exe's fake daykill has very little to do with my vote against him.

[Final Fires]

I'm vanilla. GG scum.

Umbrage, could you claim the full name of your role? (I have a good reason for asking this)

[Final Fires]

These last two pages have managed to seriously confuse me :/. I'm just going to spill out my thoughts right now and see what you guys think. (This is kind of a jumbled mess, sorry)

The reason I asked for Umbrage to claim his full role name was because I wanted to see if he would try to put a flavor twist to it. For what it's worth, another player accidently did this earlier in the game. I didn't call it out because scum aren't the only one who wouldn't know what the vanilla townie role is called; PRs wouldn't know either. Plus by waiting I could see if any scum picked up on it and tried to claim [VT role with flavor] instead of vanilla townie. I hate to do this, because it's so WIFOM, but should I call out the player who didn't know the vanilla townie role name, with there being a chance that the individual who did it is a PR? (I'm not mentioning what exactly this individual called the VT role yet, because doing so would probably give away who they are. In the case that they are a PR, I want to avoid this.)

If you go ahead with umbrage, when she flips town

Wow, nice catch.

Not only this, but Setael sounds very confident that Umbrage will flip town. No one suggests killing themselves if an execution goes differently than they anticipated; townies don't know how people will flip, and therfore have room for error. Her self-sacrificing attitude concerns me.

[This is all assuming that Setael is scum; it's admittedly speculation, not a case, and shouldn't be taken as one. However, this is the thought that's confusing me a lot right now, so I figured I would share it:] The problem is that if Setael was scum, she wouldn't be trying to stop an execution on Umbrage unless Umbrage or SO was scum too. There's a good chance that she wouldn't be blantantly defending Umbrage if he was scum; especially to the point of suggesting that she be NK'ed if he flips scum, because if he did later flip scum she would be connected back to him immediately. She especially wouldn't suggest this if she were town either though; because she wouldn't

know

how Umbrage is going to flip. However, derailing a Umbrage lynch to avoid a SO NK would be the perfect way to defend a scum buddy. Town points for her if Umbrage flips town! And on top of that an avoided SO NK. If SO ever did flip scum, no one could tie it back to her for defending him.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, is that I don't think Umbrage and Setael are both scum; I think it's one or the other. And at this point I'm not sure which, especially since Umbrage pointed out that huge slip in Setael's post.

[Final Fires]

It's a good catch, but the question is was it a slip, or just blind, unflinching confidence in Umbrage's townieness?
Either way, It's odd at the least

We'll see how she responds. I just can't understand why anyone would suggest killing them if they were wrong on one read. Here's the way I see it:

-I'm the only person in this game that I know is

confirmed

town.
-I have strong town reads on some people, but I don't

know

if they are town
-If one of my strong town reads was going to be executed, I would protest a little. However, it would be within a limit (especially on Day 1), because I'm not 100% sure they will flip town.
-And I would especially never suggest killing me if my read was wrong! (For me) I'm the only confirmed townie in the whole game. If I said "Kill me if I'm wrong on this read", and I was wrong on my read, I just set up the town for a miskill - on myself. Suggesting to kill the only confirmed townie you know of in the game (yourself) seems blantantly anti-town to me. This is not a gamble that I would take unless I was certain of Umbrage's alignment, which at this point no one could be, considering we have had no night actions.

Um, not to be Debbie Downer, but coming up with Vanilla Townie as the vanilla role isn't exactly difficult to do.

I'm not saying it clears him. However I was a little worried when he just "Vanilla", because that removes any chance of him being wrong on his claim.

That and Satael's next line was about Umbrage flipping scum.

The next line was about how we could kill her if Umbrage flipped scum. That's still very certain that he'll flip town.

What is everyone's opinion on whether I should mention who didn't know what a VT was called? Everyone seems to be avoiding that question.

[Final Fires]

What is everyone's opinion on whether I should mention who didn't know what a VT was called? Everyone seems to be avoiding that question.

Does it matter? go for it if you believe it pro-town to mention

It matters because only two people wouldn't know what a VT is called: Scum or a PR. If I say anything, there's a chance I could out a scum, but there's another chance I could out a PR. I'm asking people if that's a risk they want me to take. It's big risk, big reward, and I don't feel like it's right for me to gamble that without a majority's approval first.

[Final Fires]

As for the "catch", I thought I made it pretty clear how confident I am that umbrage is town. Confident enough to risk being mislynched for it. Yeah, maybe it's not the smartest move a townie can make, but I really don't think there's any chance she's going to flip scum. I'm betting my life on it - maybe that's not smart since I don't KNOW her alignment, but I have a lot of reasons to think she's town. The latest of which is her "catch" which she wouldn't have done if she were about to flip scum (since then it's no longer a catch since how could I KNOW she's town if she's actually scum.)

If he is scum, he would do everything in his power to shift the wagon, including pointing out slips in your post. Trying to move the bandwagon on to you and off of him is not a town tell. I still think that the catch was a good one, which is why you shot up towards the top of my suspect list. After a few days I could understand if you felt that strongly about a player, but this is day one; we don't even have one flip to solidify our reads.

[Final Fires]

Town points for her if Umbrage flips town! - Basically what I'm trying to say is, is that I don't think Umbrage and Setael are both scum; I think it's one or the other.

So, if I'm town, how exactly will Setael look to you?

If you flipped town, it would Setael look a little more town to me; although I would still be a concerned about how she was so confident you were town. In my little 'speculation' area I thought that she might be derailing Umbrage's bandwagon to save SO, but now I realize that's wrong. If Umbrage flipped town, we wouldn't have any reason to NK SO. Even if you flipped town, SO would still be on my scummy list though, although a few notches down.

Also, regarding the VT claim thing: as the scum likely don't have access to a kill, I see no harm in outing a PR. Might want to wait until D2 to be sure though.

This is probably what I'll end up doing.

OK, I'm going to go off on a train of thought here... It is almost certain that I have scum on my wagon. Now, I doubt that scum is Exe or charter because they aren't bandwagoning me, they've been pushing me for a long time now, they couldn't have known that I'd be the most likely kill target. And they haven't slowed down either. So either they are very lucky, very brazen scum, or they're town. In the same way, the last few posts by FF make me suspect him more: he's not on my case as much, he was gung-ho before, but now that the wagon's going, he's distancing himself.

I backed off a little once you pointed out Set's slip; that's what really threw me off. I am still for your execution, I just voiced my confusion about it. My alternate kill would be SO, which I know at this point isn't going to happen. Setael is on my scummy list, but right now she isn't a good execution choice. She only recently replaced in, so we won't learn much, if anything, if she's executed. Plus I've liked most of what she's had to say up until a few posts ago, even if I disagree with some of it, which is why I'm reluctant to get rid of her so quickly.

@ Final Fires: Do you still think I'm the most likely to be scum?

Right now I think it's a tie between you and SO, however I think we'll learn more from killing you.

[Final Fires]

Also: if we kill SV and he flips scum, I logically should be the one to have the NK, I've been pushing on him most of the game.

You've been advocating not lynching inactive players; you only changed this stance once it was a lurker or you being executed [Although, to be fair, Umbrage only used the stance on not lynching lurkers on SO. Tragedy, SV, and HC have been fair game throughout all of his posts.]. In one of your previous posts you listed all four lurkers as your suspects (including SO, who before you were very confident was town!); a huge change of play from your earlier attitude. Again, to be fair, you have thought Shattered is scummy, but that also does conflict with your don't lynch lurkers attitude. The fact that you directly asked for it concerns me a little too. No matter how SV flips, I would not want you to have the NK.

I still think Am is the best candidate to have the NK.

If SV flips scum Tragedy should die, and if SV flips scum StrungOver should die.

What is the logic behind this? I don't see how Tragedy or SO would look any scummier if SV flipped scum. Also, why are you suddenly for killing SO?

I've remembered why no-killing at night is so much better. Setting up lynches ALWAYS favors the scum. Why? Because the scum know exactly what the person will flip, and so while the town muddles around deciding the most likely connections, the scum have a HUGE advantage in that they can suggest guaranteed mislynches. Therefore, this whole "if he flips town, if he flips scum" strategy is inherently anti-town, in the same way that lining up lynches is also anti-town. However, until you people realize this, I will continue to offer my best suggestions on who should and shouldn't be killed.

This is actually a really good point. Plus, if we do have two potential night kills (one for ___ flipping town, the other for ____ flipping scum), which one do we make claim before the execution? We don't know how the person is going to flip, and so we wouldn't know which of them needed to claim.

[Final Fires]

I still hold that killing a lurker is anti-town. Attacking someone who can't defend themselves is scummy. I'm not going to repeat myself, I've explained all my scum reads in the past. Although I will say that I found SV scummy long before he started lurking.

If killing lurkers is anti-town, why do you want to kill Tragedy and SO? If you already answered it and I missed it you can just quote it or direct me to the post number. Please don't say your dual-scum theory either.

This dependence on Amrun is not good for town, but if you're all too blind to see it, then I suppose I have no choice but to vote her.

I'm for killing SO if SV flips town because it fits with my dual scum list theory, I'll get a clearer picture of who's who. Besides, he's not exactly adding much to the game.

I know what your dual scum list theory is, but I don't understand how you got it. Why did SO go from being "not concerning you" to your top 5 scummiest reads?

Also, I think the dual scum list theory is extremely scummy. It's just one big attempt to line up lynches:

So I say we kill one person from one list, if they flip town, kill someone from the other list, if they flip scum, kill another from the first list. Either way, from my point of view, there's still one scum unaccounted for, so I'll be trying to figure out who it is.

So if charter is likely town, who's left?

And why do you suddenly think Charter's town too?

I've had no reason to believe TS is scum this game, although I should ISO him just in case.

Why didn't SO get this same treatment, considering you've defended him as town beyond a shadow of a doubt (to the point where everyone who accused him got on your scum list) the entire game up until this point?

[Final Fires]

Why didn't SO get this same treatment, considering you've defended him as town beyond a shadow of a doubt (to the point where everyone who accused him got on your scum list) the entire game up until this point?

I've already said a million times that I was not defending SO. I see no point in responding to you until you read my posts.

You say that you weren't defending SO, but your actions speak differently. I was one of your top reads the entire game. I shed some suspicion on SO, and immediately I became one of your top scum reads. You also put every single person who accused SO into your scum reads. That's a chainsaw defense. You say that you defended because he was "inactive" and not able to post, but the problem with that is that SO's bandwagon didn't gain momentum until

after

he started to post.

I realize that you say it's because the SO wagon was "an easy wagon for scum to jump on" that scum would jump on, but the Tragedy, Vez, and SV wagons are just as easy (if not easier), and you've been pushing those.

Now please respond to the rest of my points on that last post.

So NOW you think SO is scum, Umbrage?

I think he's the scummiest person we can agree on killing.

You haven't thought he's scummy this entire game! You've been fighting that he's town nonstop, up until you put him in your top 5 scum reads in your duel theory post for seemingly no reason.

[Final Fires]

Please respond to these points:

If killing lurkers is anti-town, why do you want to kill Tragedy and SO?

Why did SO go from being "not concerning you" to your top 5 scummiest reads?

And why do you suddenly think Charter's town too?

Either SO is town or scum. I don't know which. But I do think he's of opposite alignment with SV. I think SV is scum. That's the extent of my reasoning as to why SO is town. Therefore, if SV flips town, my logic needs to be reversed.

Again, this just seems like lining up lynches.

[Final Fires]

SO, who do you think is town?

[Final Fires]

I know a lot of this stuff is really old, but I did a quick ISO of TS and had a few questions. Also I've got one question for Exe and Umbrage. I'll put the post number it was in your ISO in case you need to remember the context.

I'm going to take a break before Godwin's law explodes.
but of course, taking breaks is for scum

(Post #10)

What exactly did you mean by this?

This is why even though Exe might be gunning for me, even

if

I die it might be in the interests of the town if Exe lives, and that's why I'm not interested in an Exe kill at this point, Just because he wants to kill me, It doesn't mean he's mafioso.

(Post #19)

This post was made after Exe's "daykill", but before Exe revealed that it was fake. TS, how did you know that Exe's daykill wasn't real?

What evidence do we have that he is mafia? Sure, he could have been lurkking/active lurking, but apart from this is seems a little Anti-town from the little game-related info he's provided us with. We don't know his opinions on anything yet :s

[Later in that same post]

It looks like we're all divided over an SO kill :/
I find it safer if we don't execute him today, but that's just my opinion, and I'm sure you have your reasons. He's certainly not the least suspicious player :/

I'd favour a Tragedy lynch, but wouldn't mind hearing more from our old friend SV

(Post #32)

Why was it anti-town to kill SO because he's a lurker, but you were ok with killing Tragedy? And now SV?

I've been meaning to give some attention to SO, but there's always been something more urgent. And I feel better making cases on people that I know will read them and respond, but hey. I'll give it a shot. [Later in that same post] This is why neither Exe or myself should be killed at this time.

(Post #21)

You said yourself you were going to give attention to SO earlier on for lurking. Why did this never happen? And when someone else did give them that attention, why did it seem scummy, if you were going to do it yourself earlier?

If we allow kills at night, then I feel that we leave the mafia a chance to say "well I thought this person was scum."
If we force them to no-kill, they don't get any options to have their way AND

we guarantee that any kills at night are made by scum

.

(Post #72)

Could you clarify what you meant by this?

[Final Fires]

I think ant umbrage and ts are town.

Could you explain what makes you think ant is town?

Also the reason I refuse to contribute much is because I refuse to pretisipate in this wierd conveluded twisted long day that consists of 0 scum hunting any more but rather consists of speculation and speculation of speculations. This discusts me for 3 reaspns. The first is that it is long and pointless.

I understand your frustration at the long day, but we have a lot of decisions to make and a lot of information to process. It's day one so we don't have much to go off of; although I wouldn't agree that there's 0 scum hunting. No matter how frustrating or annoying this long day is, it's in everyone's best interests if you don't stop participating.

Now I know FF is going to pop in here and tear this post up and take everything out of context but hey whatever he is scum. what you gunna do?

As far as I'm aware, I haven't taken anything out of context throughout the course of this game. Can you quote any place I've done this?

first off [umbrage] agrees with me then FF SAYS i'm wrong...

If I see something scummy, I call it out. Townies are able to defend their stances on positions, and can give good reasoning why they posted what they did. When I pointed out several flaws, contradictions, etc in your argument, you brushed off almost all of my questions. If you had a good reason for saying something, you would've been able to address my arguments.

...and Umbrage is all like no he's not wrong and even if he is that doesn't make him scum. now how in the hell does that make him scum at all.

Umbrage never said you weren't wrong. He said that he "wouldn't support your flawed arguments". What's scummy is that he doesn't agree with what you've posted, but says has defended you because you're "an easy target for scum"; however he's gunning for SV, Tragedy, and Vez, who are all just as easy. Plus he's suddenly lined you up to be lynched if SV flips town; we're still awaiting an explanation on his reasoning behind it.

first off he didn't deffend me he simply deffended his beliefes.

It's the exact opposite. Umbrage has ONLY defended you, and not defended your beliefs whatsoever; which is why he looks scummy. Quote one place where he's defended your beliefs.

i find it so scummy that FF is attacking him like that and misrepping him so much.

Again, quote any place that I've misrepped him.

now is this deffending umbrage? No! It is just 1 calling scum out on being scum and 2 deffending what I believe to be right. FF would be the towns best day kill for today.

Your only reasoning that I'm scum is because you've somehow linked me with Exe. Every other argument that you've made against me has been addressed.

@Umbrage - Could you respond to Am's question on post 833?

[Final Fires]

I'm for Am killing someone. I still would prefer Umbrage to SV, but I think at this point no one's going to change their opinions. This day is only going to go downhill if we keep dragging it out.

[Final Fires]

Amrun, if you were uncertain of the plan, why didn't you wait for clarification before killing? Or at least give Vez a chance to claim?

I seriously do not like how the execution shifted off of Umbrage and onto SV yesterday. Umbrage had already claimed VT. He even said himself that you should generally kill claimed VTs earlier in the thread. SV was a very easy target to shift the bandwagon onto; I feel like his wagon was very scum driven.

Set and Exe both look a little more town to me. I'll probably try to reread (or at least skim) the thread one more time to see if those flips change my opinions of anyone.

TS looks a lot scummier to me today for suggesting that we revote yesterday, ultimately leading to SV getting executed instead of Umbrage. Amrun also looks very scummy to me now. As always, I still think Umbrage and SO are scum.

Hey guys, It's twistedspoon here

Here's to a fun game

anyways, reading the posts Exe seems to have everything under control; his ideas make the most sense

First week: Decide executioner
Second week: Decide who executioner kills
Third week: Decide who gets nightkill, and who they will kill with it.

Your timetable idea seems interesting, however the chance of play might not flow so smoothly. I mean deciding the executioner is probably one of the bigger decisions, and that could be tricky when we only have one week to do so. Hopefully the mafia will slip up and then we can get the executioner to hammer them. The biggest problem would be voting a

mafia witch

as executioner. Steps would have to be taken to avoid this, because if a mafia is the executioner, then it's certain a

townie pilgrim

will die, but if we have a townie executioner there is always a chance that he'll pick mafia.

TS, what made you think that the witches are called "mafia witches" and the townies are called "townie pilgrims"?

[Final Fires]

Oh, and I voted for Am last night.

[Final Fires]

I voted Umbrage

Why did you vote for Umbrage?

Same question to everyone who voted HC. Why vote for someone we hadn't even discussed giving the NK to?

[Final Fires]

Set, what's your opinion of Umbrage right now?

What do you mean "looks very scummy". Hesitating with the bus?

Amrun has been my top town read this entire game. I want to give her an opportunity to at least answer my questions before I decide for certain that I want her to be executed.

Your focus on the SV wagon is suspect. What we should be looking for is connections to amrun. She is the one we know is scum.

It would be silly for us to focus entirely on the NK, and completely ignore the way yesterday's execution went down.

Also, we don't

know

that Am is scum yet. Is there a pretty good chance of her being scum? Yes. Do we know? Nope. When you say stuff like that it makes it difficult for me to get a read on you. Yesterday you knew that SV was going to flip town, and now you know that Am is going to flip scum?

Also, it's incredibly suspect to me that now you find me "a little more town" when what you supposedly think we should focus on (the switch to the SV wagon and wanting to revote yesterday) were largely driven by ME.

TS was the one who proposed the plan; you just supported it. And when you supported it you were under the assumption that Umbrage would still be executed instead of SV. And the reason you look a little more town to me was because you tried to prevent SV's death; but it still concerns me that you were so confident that he was town, which is why it just earned you a little town points.

How did you find this FF? Did you notice it yesterday?

Yep:

The reason I asked for Umbrage to claim his full role name was because I wanted to see if he would try to put a flavor twist to it. For what it's worth, another player accidently did this earlier in the game. I didn't call it out because scum aren't the only one who wouldn't know what the vanilla townie role is called; PRs wouldn't know either. Plus by waiting I could see if any scum picked up on it and tried to claim [VT role with flavor] instead of vanilla townie. I hate to do this, because it's so WIFOM, but should I call out the player who didn't know the vanilla townie role name, with there being a chance that the individual who did it is a PR? (I'm not mentioning what exactly this individual called the VT role yet, because doing so would probably give away who they are. In the case that they are a PR, I want to avoid this.)

WHY? I find this very scummy. Were you really ok with her killing vezok when he hadn't claimed and was very possibly a power role?

I wasn't ok with a Vezok kill. However, we had all agreed to vote for Am. I figured it was better for me to stick to the plan, with there being an off chance that Am was town, than for me to scatter my vote and ensure that the mafia got a hold of the NK, allowing them to strategically kill whoever they wanted. If it counts for anything, before I voted I asked if I could vote for myself, but I couldn't.

[Final Fires]

So, Final Fires, you voted for me even though you didn't want me to kill vezok? And now you want to kill me for doing exactly what I professed to do?

I wasn't allowed to vote for myself. We had agreed on electing you; I was the backup plan if you went rogue. If I had chosen to vote for some random person that we hadn't discussed beforehand, then I would just be increasing the odds that the mafia end of with the NK, because that's one more uncoordinated town vote.

Everyone was asking for the end of the day, saying it was dragging on and nothing was being accomplished. I, too, thought this, so I ended the day UPON REQUEST. I wouldn't have done it if people hadn't asked me to.

You've been a very common sense player throughout this whole game, and you've made sure your actions have been supported by the majority. I had assumed that you would've waited for at least each person to say that they were ok with the plan for who receives the NK, as well as that they were ok with the day ending. Plus, NOBODY said they wanted you to execute right then and there. There was no urgency to end the day before each person at least got the opportunity to comment on it.

And for the record, had I thought vezok would actually claim, I would have let her. It seemed to me like she wasn't going to claim no matter what.

This is a flat out lie. Vez offered to claim early on, and there was discussion on whether or not we should make him claim.

[Final Fires]

Set, what's your current opinion on Umbrage?

[Final Fires]

Ugg, I had a big post but my computer freaked out and deleted it :/ I'll work on providing more content tommorow or later tonight, but this was pretty much the gist of what got lost:

-If you ISO Vez, he played the entire game as if he had knowledge that Exe was town. It made me wonder if he had a daycop ability.
-Exe and Set are my top town reads right now, although I'm still a little iffy on Set.
-From all the vote counts people are forgetting that I voted Am and Exe voted me. Also we have to consider that Vez had a vote, but we don't know who he used it on.

And then I had a few ISO's. If I have time I'll try to do those again later.

@Umbrage - What's your current opinion on SO?
@SO - You still need to respond to post #844. Please do so in your next post.

[Final Fires]

SO could be scum, but I still read him as very poor town. Call it gut if you want. However this parroting of me is getting old. I'm fine with it if you want him dead, but he's not my first choice for a kill.

What happened to this?

If SV flips scum Tragedy should die, and if SV flips scum StrungOver should die.

[Final Fires]

Whoops, that second quote is supposed to read "if SV flips town SO should die". I copied and pasted it directly from Umbrage, but he later clarified that he meant town:

I'm for killing SO if SV flips town because it fits with my dual scum list theory, I'll get a clearer picture of who's who. Besides, he's not exactly adding much to the game.

[Final Fires]

@FF: Do you think TS' reference to pilgrims makes him more likely a PR or scum? I find is suspicious that you pointed that out if you don't think it's scummy. Why would you out a possible PR?

What led you to believe that I don't think it's scummy?

But yes, I do think he's scummy otherwise I wouldn't have pointed it out.

I did a (very) brief ISO of each person, and here's my revised reads:

Amrun:

Scummy, for obvious reasons. It concerns me a little how she has been used as an attempt to stifle discussion regarding the way SV was voted though.

Ant:

Most notable for his general lack of content; he's definately lurking. At the start, he spent time speculating on the setup. This post in particular concerned me (sorry for it's length, I tried to trim it as much as I could):

anyways, reading the posts Exe seems to have everything under control; his ideas make the most sense

Your blatant sheeping has been noted for later examination.

A lot of other people could also be called out for sheeping like this too...why just pick on him?

The case on twistedspork is: sheeping, rolefishing, and blatant buddying.

Sheeping like other people have, more speculation that rolefishing (which others have already done here, but not him), and buddying like others have done.

TS, you are pretty eager to point a finger at whoever you can find, aren't you?

this is not sheeping and I am? seriously. I just said that my ideas were similar to Exe's. It's useful to know the thoughts and ideas of the other players otherwise they might as well not be players.

Regardless of what is and isn't sheeping, this IS mudslinging.

But he wasn't pointing a finger. He was pointing out the fact that he was being singled out for something other people have done too in this game. How is that mudslinging?

LOL at SV's OMGUS.

I'm getting more certain of SV being scum. He's pushing the TS wagon too hard. I still read TS as newbie confused town, I see no rolefishing going on, and I think SV is really reaching.

Not only is Shattered Viewpoint pushing it hard, but Exe as well. Wait....add charter to that list as well.

Third, I'm pretty sure Axe is scum.

Could you explain this?

His frequent posting, but saying nothing, especially post 14.

Wait wait wait...have you been talking about me? O.o

Twisted is also scummy. I wouldn't mind him getting killed, either. After Shattered mentions his name and sheeping, he immediately accuses other players of sheeping. Pretty poor defense.

Seriously...wtf is wrong with people here.

I think we should elect Exe, kill TS, and then at night elect whoever is willing to kill Umbrage after TS flips scum.

Haschel and SV also look mighty town.

And what happens if he flips town?

Revelation.

/Unvote; Vote: Exe

Everybody else should do the same preferably in their very next post.

OMG LOOK!!!!!!
Do you guys want to accuse him of sheeping too?

As for my vote, I am not going to give it to Exe here. I am not feeling this wagon on twistedspoon at all.

Ant's early game consisted of a lot of defending TS (although to be fair, today he doesn't want to give TS the executioner role). When I reread through his ISO, it felt like when he called out Vez for role fishing, it was more of a chainsaw defense for TS than actual scumhunting. In fact, when you go through his posts there's almost no scumhunting at all, just defending other players, speculating on the setup, buddying, or OMGUSing (see post #23). Also, I noticed he conflicted in his views in post #28 to #29:

I think that vezokpiraka or Tragedy would be a good lynch for today. Vezo still for things I have said way in the beginning still apply, and for Tragedy I just feel is scummy from all her posts. The one good one isn't going to make up for the scummy 20 questions posts.

[Vezok's soft claim] doesn't sit well with me, but then again I have to think about what happened in my last game. On D1 someone claimed a PR at L-3 or L-2 (very first wagon of the game too), then claimed what his power was (which he actually semi-lied about), and end the end turned out to be on the town side. Main difference here though is vezok didn't fess up a power. I think FF might have brought this up earlier, but the best course of action might be to let him live today and have him fess up tomorrow and we decide on him from there.

On #28 he says he thinks Vez should be lynched; in the next he says we should let him live for one more day. To be fair though, they were one day apart and I'm not sure what new points were raised between them. For now I'm leaning scummy on Ant, but he's not my strongest scum read.

Charter:

Looks very town to me now. Early on he defended SV, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of his scum reads now. I wouldn't mind if he was executioner today.

Exe:

Pretty much the same stuff as Charter. He defended SV, and now that some people have flipped I agreed with his reads. Likewise, I wouldn't mind if he was executioner today. Vez's certainty that Exe was town also plays a little into my read of him.

HC:

Is lacking in content, but I still have a leaning town read on him. He doesn't have a lot of scumhunting, but when he does I find myself agreeing with it now.

Set:

Difficult for me to get a read on. Seems mostly town, but her confidence in how people will flip concerns me.

SO:

There is absolutely no way that SO is town. He has not done a single protown thing throughout the course of this game. He is my top scum read right now, and I think we should seriously consider having him be NK'd tonight. Just read post #8 in his ISO and tell me that he's town. After he gave his initial scum reads, he spent the rest of the day begging us to kill Vezo. He flip flops between wanting to do a no kill so our PRs can gather info, and between us killing Vez, at the time our alleged PR. Seriously, just read his ISO. We would be making a huge mistake if we let this guy stay around much longer.

Tragedy:

I feel really confident that she's town, just because of one thing she said. I misunderstood what she was saying the first time around, but now I get it:

Meanwhile, there's only WITCHES, as some would obviously read and notice from their Role PM as well, amIRight?

This is an extremely bold thing to say, and I find it very hard to believe that scum would even dare say something like this, especially so early on in the game. This practically confirmed her as town for me.

TS:

Scummy. Pretty much all of my thoughts on TS have been said before in this thread by others, but if anyone asks I can echo why I'm suspicious of him.

Umbrage:

Still scum. I've explained why before, but if anyone asks I can reiterate why.

Also, quick votecount recap:

Vezok: 2 (Amrun, StrungOver)
Umbrage: 6 (Tragedy, FF, Exe, Charter,

Vezok

, Haschel)
Shattered Viewpoint: 3 (Umbrage, Twistedspoon, Setael)
Tragedy: 1 (Ant)
StrungOver: 1 (

Shattered Viewpoint

)

Take it for what you want. All of my top town reads now were on the Umbrage wagon, and SO was only voted for by a confirmed townie. For me, I can conclude that the Umbrage/SO wagon was definately not scum driven, where as now it looks like the SV one was. The final vote count:

Shattered Viewpoint: 7 (Amrun, Seteal, Twistedspoon, Umbrage, SO, Tragedy, Ant_to_the_max)
Umbrage: 6 (FF, Exe, Charter,

Vezok

, Haschel,

SV

)

[Final Fires]

Well first off there is NO doubt in my mind that vezo was the scummiest player in this game yesterday.

The main reason I wanted him dead was because I'd heard that he looks scummy no matter what.

So I figured we may as well get him out of the way so he doesn't interfere with our reads. Vezo's flip though does make me find Exe way more town, but still exe is 4th on my list. The other three are Stel, FF, and Amrun. I will post reasons tomorrow when I'm not in bed on my phone throwing up.

So essentially, you wanted to set up the easiest lynch possible?

And what are you sick with? The flu? (This is relevant, I promise.)

[Final Fires]

Vote: Exe

But wouldn't that just be the perfect tactic for scum? Get a town read from one bold statement and then: Town read forever?

I'm not advocating a town read forever, but it definately did influence my read on her a little.

Tragedy's a slight scum read of mine.

Umbrage, what did you think of Tragedy's comment? Can you explain how (or if) it influenced your read on her, and why? Here's the comment I'm referring to, in case you missed it:

Meanwhile, there's only WITCHES, as some would obviously read and notice from their Role PM as well, amIRight?

This has to be one of the most obvious lies out there right now....StrungOver is one of my top picks for today. TwistedSpoon, Umbrage, and Tragedy are my other people I would be willing to kill.

Same question to Ant; what did you think of Tragedy's comment? Did it influence your read on her, and why?

[Final Fires]

And actually same question to TS too: What did you think of the comment of why?

[Final Fires]

Who is it that said the thing about pilgrims? I think that is potentially a lot more telling than referring to witches.

Well, my plan was to ask TS/Umbrage/Ant and see if they knew that Tragedy was referring to the win condition or not. If they didn't, then I was going to continue and see if they knew the town win condition at all. However, that plan's not going to work anymore.

Anyways, the reason I think Tragedy is confirmed town is because she knew the town win condition. That's not knowledge that scum would have. Likewise, it raised a red flag when people continued putting suspicion on her even after I pointed that out, because it indicated that they

didn't

know what the town win condition was.

And TS was the one who mentioned Pilgrims.

[Final Fires]

Scroll to the bottom if you want the short version.

I hope this makes sense. If any parts are a little confusing, ask for clarification.

Lol Pilgrims?...
I thought we were just regular Townspeople.

We are. The witches wouldn't know this though, and would try to put a flavor twist to the traditional townie name, because there's a flavor twist to the traditional mafia name.

I saw this day one but waited to point it out because I figured that PRs wouldn't know if we were pilgrims or townies either (in the first post it mentions an Andrew Smith, which made me think PRs would have flavor too). I asked for everyone's opinion on whether I should point it out, and I was told to wait until Day 2 to mention it, which I'm glad I did. When Vez flipped regular cop (no flavor), I knew there was a good chance that TS was scum rather than a PR. I pointed out his quote and waited to see how people reacted to it, which is why I didn't follow up on it for awhile.

This was TS's defense for posting it:

I think i might have called them that on my first post. I'm not sure I remember why though with it being the first post. Flavour reasons I would guess.

---

When I was rereading ISO's, I actually understood what Tragedy was

really

saying this time, and tried to make it seem like a big deal so that everyone understood there was an important underlying message:

I feel really confident that she's town, just because of one thing she said. I misunderstood what she was saying the first time around, but now I get it:

Meanwhile, there's only WITCHES, as some would obviously read and notice from their Role PM as well, amIRight?

This is an extremely bold thing to say, and I find it very hard to believe that scum would even dare say something like this, especially so early on in the game. This practically confirmed her as town for me.

Most town win conditions are worded to the extent "You win once all threats to the town have been eliminated." The one in this game is worded very differently; I can't quote it exactly, but go read it in your role PM (if you're town). It clearly indicates that there is only one scum group; the witches. This is what Tragedy was refering to; "as some [meaning the town] would obviously read and notice from their Role PM [win condition] as well, amIRight?" The win condition indicates that there are no SKs, multiple factions, etc. If someone were a witch, they would not know what the win condition is for town. As far as I'm aware, scum win conditions are generally worded something like, "You win once [your scum team] can't be stopped."

Another reason I made such a big deal out of Tragedy's post was to try to draw the question, "How does that make her town?". If this had been the case, that person definately would've been scum, because they obviously would not have known what the town win condition is. No one did. Instead, TS put this:

But wouldn't that just be the perfect tactic for scum? Get a town read from one bold statement and then town read forever?

In addition to this Umbrage and Ant both still expressed uncertainty after I had pointed this out:

Tragedy's a slight scum read of mine.

....StrungOver is one of my top picks for today. TwistedSpoon, Umbrage, and Tragedy are my other people I would be willing to kill.

Right away this shot all of them up on my scumdar. I tried to probe deeper so that they would get caught in a lie if they were scum. By asking them:

What did you think of Tragedy's comment? Can you explain how (or if) it influenced your read on her, and why?

They would have to answer:

-Didn't influence their read on her (And thus implying they don't know the town win condition)
-Influenced towards town (Thus implying they do know the win condition. I was trying to give potential townies a 'get out of jail free' card before I nailed them on this; by asking them to look deeper into Tragedy's statement, they would look at their role PM to try to understand what she was saying, see their win condition, and take back their earlier read on Tragedy.)
-Influenced towards scum (Implies they don't know what the town win condition is.)

Ant's answer was very vague:

Never got an answer from it, or at least I missed it. I still stand by what I said, I think I knew what she was poking at, but wanted to hear it from her.

It's difficult to tell exactly what he meant by this. When I read it my first impression was that he knew the town win condition (thus "I knew what she was poking at), knew what I was doing, and tried to keep it on the downlow so the other two could answer, and either confirm themselves as town or scum.

Unfortunately, before the other two could answer, this was posted:

If you could read your Role PM, you win when All the Witches are dead. DEAD I SAY.
WITCHES SHOULD BE BEHEADED.

This ended all questions that could be asked to see if scum knew the win condition or not, because now everyone knew that Tragedy was referring to the win condition, as well as what the win condition was.

Umbrage dodged the question entirely in the post right after Tragedy's.

After Tragedy posted her explanation, Set still put her as one of his scum reads:

If amrun is scum: Tragedy
If amrun is town: me

Which just flat out confused me.

Conclusion:

-Twisted and Umbrage are scum for not knowing the win condition. Considering they are both pushing an Amrun lynch, it makes me feel like the Amrun wagon is more scum driven than anything. However, this doesn't clear Amrun, because as someone pointed out they could just want the "townie points" if Amrun flips scum.
-TS is also scum for thinking that we're pilgrims.
-SO is still scum. Just throwing that out there.
-Ant was vague, and hinted at knowing the win condition. I'm starting to lean a little town on him, because I think he knew.
-Set just confused me, considering she still put Tragedy on her scum list even after Tragedy blantantly expressed knowledge of the win condition. And she put herself as the kill if Amrun was town. This is the second time that she's bet her life on how someone will flip; I kind of doubt someone would do that unless they already knew.

My strong scum reads are: Twisted, Umbrage, and SO. My potential scum reads are: Amrun and Set.

[Final Fires]

@ Final Fires:

The flavour makes the set-up obvious. Mafia are generally able to tell, since they know their own numbers, whether the set-up has an SK or second team. The fact that Tragedy was smart enough to figure out that witches are the

enemy of pilgrims

doesn't make me leap in the air with joy for her townness.

First of all, now you're calling "townies" pilgrims.

Second of all, Tragedy didn't just say that there witches.

She said that the town role PM mentioned witches.

If she is scum, that's a bold statement to be making.

We are. The witches wouldn't know this though, and would try to put a flavor twist to the traditional townie name, because

there's a flavor twist to the traditional mafia name.

Now, how would you know that? And don't tell me the twist is 'witches', our twist is 'pilgrims', but the role name is still 'vanilla townie'. Why wouldn't the mafia have PMs that say 'mafia goon'?

You obviously do not know the town win condition.

If you did, you would know that we're not looking for 'mafia goons', we're looking for witches.

And we're not called pilgrims. If you were town you would know that too.

Finally, what ever happened to that thing where you had me claim my role name? ISO #50, in case anyone's forgotten. Doesn't that make me at least as town as Tragedy? But no... I'm still scummy to you.

Claiming "Vanilla Townie" is not impressive, and certaintly doesn't confirm you as town. The reason I asked was because an inability to claim VT would confirm you as scum.

[Final Fires]

I'm pretty sure Exe has been elected at this point. Could anyone go back and do an unofficial check?

Read the first fucking post in the game. It's obvious that the townies are the pilgrims and the witches are the mafia. The ROLE NAMES do not say 'VANILLA PILGRIM'. They say VANILLA TOWNIE. Therefore, it is easy to assume that the mafia PMs say MAFIA GOON or MAFIA GODFATHER, and not 'WITCH GOON' or anything like that.

There has not been a single indication to pilgrims anywhere in this thread, or in the town role PM. What made you think the town was pilgrims? Also, you've had a sudden change of heart regarding 'Townie pilgrims' vs 'Vanilla Townie':

Also, regarding the VT claim thing: as the scum likely don't have access to a kill, I see no harm in outing a PR. Might want to wait until D2 to be sure though.

Earlier you thought it was a scum tell, and told me to go ahead and out them.

However, it's worth noting that this post shows no indiction that Umbrage thinks the person I'm going to out is scum; he just mentions PR.

I'm about 99.9999999999999% sure that the mod would use the same format for both town and mafia PMs. It makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim. So it's safe to assume the mafia PMs mention 'pilgrims'. If I could figure that out, you can bet your ass the scum could figure out our PMs.

So let's assume that the mafia role did mention pilgrims.

You and TS are the only two who have thought we're called pilgrims.

No where in the thread, or the town PM does it indicate that we're pilgrims.

What is the logical conclusion here?

And yet Tragedy mentions WITCHES and suddenly you're all OOH SHE MUST BE TOWN? This is crap logic. You're saying whatever you want and pretending that it's backed up by this magical force.

You would understand my logic if you received a town role.

Tragedy didn't just mention witches. She mentioned witches

in the role PM.

Witches would not know what was in the town role PM.

You are trying to outsmart the mod, which is NEVER a good idea. This is fucking Mafia 101. If you REALLY were trying to find scum through knowledge of role PMs, you'd have AT LEAST READ THE FLAVOUR. Which you clearly HAVEN'T, or you would know that TOWNIES and PILGRIMS are THE SAME FUCKING THING. So you obviously don't give a shit about finding scum. Therefore you are just interested in finding some reason to clear Tragedy, therefore you are scum with Tragedy.

All of Umbrage's "scum hunting" has consisted solely of lining up lynches and pointless speculation

This is no exception. The obvious logical fallacies in this are huge. Let's say I was scum (which I'm not). Why would I out of nowhere try to clear Tragedy when there's almost no suspicion on her at this point? Umbrage is just grasping at straws.

HOW TO WIN THE GAME:

Step 1: Kill Amrun.
Step 2: Kill Final Fires.
Step 3: Kill Tragedy.

Someone is determined to line up lynches.

[Final Fires]

Umbrage, quote one post you've made that's been good scumhunting.

[Final Fires]

Since Exe is already making the night kill (or only needs one or two more votes), I think FF could be trusted to kill Umbrage tonight. Or SO, or charter even. Or me. I'd be fine with any of these.

Why SO?

execute amrun
night kill umbrage

What's with the sudden change of heart?

Umbrage, quote one post you've made that's been good scumhunting.

I take your resort to ad hominem as a sign that you can't properly defend yourself.

I could say the same thing about your answer. In fact, almost your entire defense was "attack the person" (ad hominem) over anything else:

AND YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND MY LOGIC IF YOU STARTED THINKING FOR A CHANGE.

Above statement is total bullshit. FF is trying to bamboozle you. Don't fall for it, please.

JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!!!!!!!

FF: Hey, does anyone find Tragedy scummy?

Umbrage and a few other guys: Yeah, we do!

FF: Well, you're wrong because of this shitty logic that I just made up!

THE END

Also, I don't see how asking you to point out one time you've scumhunted as ad hominem at all.

[Final Fires]

MORE BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FF CAN'T RESPOND TO MY ARGUMENTS SO HE'S PLAYING THE OOH UMBRAGE LIKES TO POST IN CAPS LETS LYNCH HIM CARD!!!!!!!!!!!! AND YOU ARE FALLING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ISN'T THAT GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More ad hominem. And there's nothing for me to respond to, because pretty all you said was, "Final Fires is a liar! Don't trust him or his logic!".

And still no quote where he had good scumhunting.

So basically... It's from Umbrage, TS, Exe, SO, SV, Amrun then back to Umbrage.
Apparently, I guess these changes were caused by TS, SO and somehow Umbrage. I just had recently noticed, but I thought Amrun wanted to execute SO...

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Final Fires]

Sorry for this long post. I'll address Umbrage's argument point by point:

Final Fires has not responded to my latest arguments in the least. Everything coming from him now is ad hominem, he thinks that by critiquing my play he can shift attention off of his own.

What points would you still like me to address? Most of the points you made against me in this post I've already addressed.

His reasoning of why Tragedy is town is weak.

It's not difficult to know that a vanilla townie is called. It is difficult to know what the town win condition is, unless you are in fact town. Especially in this game, because the win condition is different than a typical town win condition.

Trust me, scum know they are the witches, and they know we are the puritans.

There's nothing to deny about this; mafia is a game of an informed minority vs an uninformed majority. That's common knowledge.

What's more, he ignores the fact that since I claimed the right role name, I am town by his own logic, since I know what the town PM is like.

Claiming "vanilla townie" is not impressive nor does it confirm you as town. The main reason I asked was because a failure to do so

would

confirm you as scum.

Earlier you suggested that the witches have names with no flavor - that they're just called 'mafia'. If this is the case, then they would have even less of a problem coming up with a good fakeclaim. They could not however, produce a win condition. That's the difference between you and Tragedy.

I knew the role name, Tragedy knew the win con. There is no difference. Either we are both confirmed town, or neither of us are confirmed anything. And yet, Final Fires tries to have his cake and eat it too. He insists Tragedy is town, and I am scum. The logic applies to her, but it doesn't to me.

There is a huge difference, as explained above.

Final Fires, Exe, and now Setael have taken over this game. Nobody says poop without their consent.

This is just flat out not true. Everything people say is open to being asked questions. Just because I do ask people a lot of questions, and make cases against people does not mean that "I've taken over this game".

This allows players like charter, Ant, Cedricson, and Tragedy to get away with the bare minimum scum hunting. This is not a healthy environment

I can't help but notice that he left SO out of here.

And yesterday I suggested that some of the lurkers were scummy, but Umbrage called me scum for it. In fact, Umbrage tried to avoid starting conversation on lurkers at all Day One. Now that lurkers are not the center of the discussion today, and he's calling me scum for it. Double standard?

Plus blaming me for other players lurking is not a fair accusation at all.

I have not seen a single case on one of the latter players that hasn't lost momentum and died, mainly because one of the big players says they are town, and nobody questions them.

As far as I remember, there has not been a significant case made on any of the players that he mentioned. That's probably the first big reason that they lost momentum. And if there was, I had no part in it losing momentum.

Take the current example, I was under practically no suspicion until I started to attack Final Fires. When Final Fires started attacking me in return, (OMGUS?) everyone jumped on the wagon.

-I was your top town read.
-I put a little bit of suspicion on SO.
- You lightly tried to stop me from putting pressure on SO.
- SO posted something very scummy. I called him out on it.
- Immediately you chainsaw defended him at all costs, to the point where

everyone

who accused him became one of your scum reads, and people who did not put pressure on him became your town reads.

The problem was not that you defended SO. It was how you defended SO. Townies don't defend one another the way you defended him.

Just like how nobody dared question that Amrun was the kill for today. I think she should be the kill, but it is odd how nobody was defending her, and nobody was suggesting an alternative to killing her. Why? Because nobody wanted to go up against Setael.

I don't know what others intentions are for not disagreeing with an Amrun kill, but I haven't spoken up because I don't think it's a bad move. I still think executing you or SO is a better move, but Amrun has a solid case against her right now.

I originally mistook this sheeping for scumplay, which resulted in SV's death. I'm wiser now. This is a symptom of the town.

If you thought scum were sheeping SV, why did you still push a lynch against him before it came down to you vs him for yesterdays lynch?

Nobody is objective in this game. The mad rush on SO yesterday caused a panic in me. I went against the herd to try and slow it down, I didn't care about SO, I was worried about what was happening to everyone else.

You did more than try to slow SO's wagon down. You tried to entirely derail it by attacking everyone who was suspicious of SO. Ultimately you were successful.

And according to the last post you made on SO, you still have a town read on him, suggesting you do care about SO more than you claim.

There always has to be someone playing devil's advocate. Someone against the lynch. Someone wondering if what we are doing is the best thing for the town. If we don't do that, mistakes are made. And we are forced to follow the leaders, leaders who may be scum.

True. However, the devil's advocate could always just as easily be scum as the leaders.

I have put together a solid case on Final Fires.

I'm pretty certain that I've addressed each point you brought up in this post before, so it's not solid at all. Are there any other points that I missed?

He's ignoring it now, hoping my quick death will be the end of his troubles. You are listening to him for no other reason than he is the town leader. He makes long posts and sounds smart. But his logic is flawed. I've pointed them out.

Just because you say my logic is flawed doesn't make it so. If you're referring to post #127 in your ISO, I've already talked about that. There's no way I can address what is essentially you saying "I think your logic is wrong!" if you don't point out

what

the flaws in my logic are.

Honestly, at this point, who would I be partnered with as scum? I've attacked or been attacked by everyone here. Even my little parrot SO has turned against me, for no other reason than it's the way the wagon is headed, a wagon that has the blessing of Setael and Final Fires.

If I were to assume you were scum for certain, this would be a good place for people to start bussing. SO's sudden turning on you doesn't make you look any more town.

I don't care if you hate me, or my playstyle. But I do care if you lynch me because of it. Being condescending does not make me scum.

Nobody is proposing lynching you because of your playstyle.

Being brash does not mean I don't make good arguments.

Nobody is proposing your arguments are bad because they're brash. They're bad because they've all been refuted.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone bothers reading my posts. I suppose I could've been quieter, toed the line and kept any flaws with our leaders' play to myself. But that's not what you do to win. Winning is all that matters. Each post I made was what I thought the town needed. If someone was being unreasonable, I tried to slap them straight. If the town was chaotic, I tried to instill some order.

Town needs scum hunting more than anything.

I'm going to ask you one more time to quote a place where you've had good, sound scum hunting. Please don't dodge this question again.

These are not the actions of mafia. I ask you to read my posts, only my posts, and determine whether they are coming from scum or mafia. Don't listen to what Final Fires and Setael tell you. Their information is tainted. The only person you can trust is yourself. Make your own decisions.

There's not much response I can give to this, but just to be fair I put it in here.

I apologize if I come across brash and condesending too, to any of the players in this game. It's not my intention to intimidate or bully anyone, I just have a gameplay that revolves more around interrogating others. Umbrage, I hope that you know I'm questioning you because I dislike you as an individual or because I dislike your gameplay, but rather because at this point you're my strongest scum read. I hope that you're not taking any of my cases against you personally, because that's not my intention at all.

[Final Fires]

Oops! This is supposed to read:

Umbrage, I hope that you know I'm NOT questioning because I dislike you as an individual or because I dislike I yoru gameplay, but rather because you're my strongest scum read.

[Final Fires]

Sorry guys, this is going to be a busy week for me. I'm just posting to avoid a prod. Hopefully I'll be able to slip in a good post tommorow.

[Final Fires]

Alright, here's my proposal:

Kill SO today as the execution.
If SO is scum -> Kill Umbrage
If SO is town -> Kill Am

If SO flips town (which I doubt), then I'll have to reconsider my read on Umbrage. Plus I think SO is the better choice to kill, because last night he didn't vote according to our plan, where as at least Umbrage and Am did (if we were to assume they're telling the truth).

I don't think Ant having the NK is the right choice. Like he said, it doesn't allow him to use his role to the best of its ability. I would not be against Charter, Tragedy, or myself receiving it. I would say Exe too, but we've learned our lesson about giving the same person the DK and NK.

I made a post outlining how your logic regarding PMs was flawed. Instead of arguing the merits of the case, you started asking me for... posts where I was scumhunting? And flat-out disregarding my case. I'm not trying to find posts where you feel I was scumhunting when you can just yell 'speculation' at anything.

Tell me what post number it is if you still want me to address it. If you're talking about #1086, there's nothing I can argue in that because all you're saying is that I'm wrong and shouldn't be trusted.

The reason I asked you to post one time you were scum hunting was because I posted this:

All of Umbrage's "scum hunting" has consisted solely of lining up lynches and pointless speculation

And you made no attempt to respond to it, which made me wonder if you couldn't argue it. I very briefly skimmed through your ISO and couldn't find any case against people that wasn't something along the lines of, "Well, if Player X is scum then it makes a lot of sense that Player Y would be scum, so I think we should execute...". I'm not going to say 'speculation' if it's a case against an individual; but if it's drawing connections between several players, then I will.

I see. But what if, just like how the townie PM mentions witches, the mafia PM mentions puritans? Odds are that it does, mods like to keep the same format for both scum and town PMs. It's easy to assume the mafia were able to figure out that the town PM mentions witches.

That's true. Still, I think it's a bold thing to post that so quickly into day one. Especially because if you were wrong it would definately result in your execution.

I did mention SO in that post. Either you missed it, which means you haven't read carefully, or you are misrepresenting me. Honestly, what am I supposed to think at this point?

You did mention SO in the post, but I wasn't talking about the post as a whole. I was talking about this:

This allows players like charter, Ant, Cedricson, and Tragedy to get away with the bare minimum scum hunting. This is not a healthy environment

You neglected to put SO as a player that was "getting away with the bare minimum scum hunting", but called out four others.

So you see my point. Whether or not this 'leader' system is your fault, it's causing problems. One of the main reasons I think you are scum with Exe is because although you two disagree a lot, you don't attack each other, or call each other scummy.

If anyone's to be put at fault for the leader system, it would be the game setup. We're required to elect one person each day and night; that naturally lends itself to people stepping up into a leader role.

On day one I thought Exe was scummy. However, after last night's flips his stances look a lot more pro-town to me. Plus, I don't view disagreeing with me as a scum tell.

So if anything this is a reason to kill SO. Your main point on me is how I defended SO. But these are only points against me if SO is scum. So why not lynch SO?

This is actually a really good point. My argument against you is very contingent on SO being scum; it makes more sense to kill him today than you.

No. I will not do so. My ISO is there for everyone to look at. If there's something you think has not been good scum hunting, feel free to point it out. I am not digging out old posts for you to say "sorry, no".

Once I have more time I'll go through your ISO.

[Final Fires]

Vote to kill: SO

Although I'm still fine with an Amrun or Umbrage execution.

[Final Fires]

Also, here's the vote count so far:

SO (3) - Twistedspoon, Tragedy, Final Fires
Amrun (2) - Umbrage, Set
Umbrage (1) - Charter

[Final Fires]

Can someone point me to this big incredible case on SO? I'd really like to hear what you have on him that's better than the amrun case, but everyone's ignoring my request.

Read through his ISO. He hasn't done one pro-town thing yet.

I'm hesitant to join the vote on Amrun. As of now the votes on Am are Umbrage, SO, and Set. Two of my top scum reads are in there; right now I've just got a feeling that Am's wagon is being scum driven. Once all of the votes have been placed I'll reevaluate my vote and decide if I still want to be with SO.

[Final Fires]

Umbrage, you can easily answer 'he hasn't done one pro-town thing'. All you have to do is point out where he's done one pro-town thing, and that's a null argument.

[Final Fires]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2805920

That post was what made everyone think he was scum in the first place. If you want I can go through it point by point, but that definately wasn't pro-town. In that post alone he made a case against two of our confirmed townies (one of which was a PR). And I personally know that I'm town, so that's three confirmed townies (for me) that he made a case against. Plus Ant revealed he has the double vote, which we've already gone over as more likely to be a town power than a scum one. I also have a town read on Exe right now too; so to me it just looks like he was trying to shift the attention off of you, and onto one of us. Plus all of his cases were full of misrep and logical fallacies; if you want I can point them out again.

What is this I don't even

I just think he was scum this game

anyways, SO is a pretty cool guy. eh plays mafia and he doesn't afraid of anything.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Especially the last sentence?

[Final Fires]

Set, what is your stance on SO right now? Same question to Umbrage.

I've made it clear that I support an Amrun execution since the start of this day, although I just as much support an Umbrage or SO lynch. All three are good candidates to be lynched. It's not fair to say, 'Don't consider who's voting for Am', because that is something that I take into account when voting. The main defense of Am right now is that she would be the perfect target for scum to drive a mislynch on, and to me the votes look like they're supporting that. Overall I just feel like SO is the safer lynch today.

[Final Fires]

Sorry guys, this has been a busy week. I'll try to post something longer tommorow. However, this caught my eye:

NO. YOU LOT LOST THE PRIVILEGE OF ME BEING CIVIL. I TRIED POSTING NORMALLY. NOW YOU GET THE CAPS.

Amrun (1): Umbrage,
Final Fires (4): Setael, Amrun, Ant_to_the_max, Twistedspoon
Haschel (2): charter, Tragedy
Charter (1): Haschel

...Then how did it come to Amrun like this?

This chart does not make any logical sense.

THE ONLY CONCLUSION FROM THIS IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LYING ABOUT VOTING FOR AMRUN. THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIE ARE SCUM. I DID NOT LIE. ERGO I AM NOT SCUM.

STRUNGOVER IS LURKING, SHEEPING SCUM. I DON'T DENY THAT. BUT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME WE TRIED KILLING LURKING, SHEEPING SCUM? WE KILLED A TOWNIE AND A COP. I ADMIT I SCREWED UP WITH SV AND VEZOK, BUT YOU GUYS MAKING THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE ISN'T GOING TO GET US ANYWHERE.

The vote count Umbrage chose to show everyone was an early one; before my vote had been counted. I publically acknowledged that I voted for Amrun. So under his logic, that clears me as town. But then he also wants to NK me? Inconsistant. Umbrage, why does publically admitting that you voted for Amrun clear you as town, but it doesn't clear me?

[Final Fires]

@ FINAL FIRES: I'VE DECIDED THAT MY LOGIC APPLIES TO ME, BUT NOT TO YOU FOR SOME REASON. SOUND FAMILIAR?

Yes:

-When you decided that we couldn't lynch SO Day 1 because he was an "easy target", but proceeded to play a part in SV and Vez getting killed.
-When you used the newbie card as a case for SO's innocence, but not other newbies on this thread.
-And now you think you're town because you admitted to voting for Am, but I'm not.

And I've already explained the difference between claiming vanilla townie, and knowing the town win condition.

[Final Fires]

@ FINAL FIRES: I'VE DECIDED THAT MY LOGIC APPLIES TO ME, BUT NOT TO YOU FOR SOME REASON. SOUND FAMILIAR?

Yes:

-When you decided that we couldn't lynch SO Day 1 because he was an "easy target", but proceeded to play a part in SV and Vez getting killed.
-When you used the newbie card as a case for SO's innocence, but not other newbies on this thread.
-And now you think you're town because you admitted to voting for Am, but I'm not.

And I've already explained the difference between claiming vanilla townie, and knowing the town win condition.

NO YOU DID NOT EXPLAIN. I POINTED OUT HOW YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AND YOU WENT LOL NO, THEN TRIED TO DISTRACT ME BY ASKING ME TO DIG UP POSTS WHERE I WAS SCUMHUNTING.

Go to my ISO and read post #83.

AND FOR THE ABOVE EXAMPLES, I'VE ALREADY PROVIDED MY REASONING FOR DOING WHAT I DID. DISPUTE THE REASONING, AND MAYBE YOU'LL GET A LONGER RESPONSE.

What post number in your ISO am I looking at here?

[Final Fires]

Is this the response you were referring to?

Encouraging activity is different than attacking lurkers. Maybe if vezok hadn't had the entire town against him, he could've claimed, could've done some scumhunting. I believe most of the lurkers are town. But they aren't contributing. The solution is not to say they are scum.

If so, that still doesn't explain why SV and Vez didn't get the 'lurker protection' that SO received from you.

[Final Fires]

Aww, if there had been a doctor, by PoE Amrun was the only person who it could have possibly been. That's why I pushed so hard to switch the lynch off of her. Big mistake on my part. I tunneled way too hard on Umbrage/SO's buddying; plus the fact that I was convinced Amrun was the doctor made me sure they were scum.

I considered for a little that there might not be a doctor, but in the end I wanted to be cautious and see if Am's play matched up (which so far it had). I wasn't expecting to get killed that night, because I tried to breadcrumb vanilla townie everywhere in my posts to avoid the NK.

That's also why I went balistic trying to get Vez to claim when he softclaimed an investigative role on D1. In retrospect I really should have made him claim.

And I was right with my guess on four scum too, haha. We could've (mostly) broken the game if we'd abused the no kill/no lynch plan.

Well played by scum though, especially Am on day 1. Horrible play on my part. Sorry town!

[Final Fires]

And also, the night I died I realized the doctor was probably going to be a witch too >.< A witch doctor was just too perfect for this game's theme, and made a lot of sense with Vez flipping cop. If only I'd survived one more day, I think I would've picked up my play at least a little.

[Final Fires]

And I knew there was something wrong with TS using the phrase 'pilgrim'! I noticed it Day 1, but because I didn't know what the vanilla townies in this game were called, I didn't point it out. Once umbrage claimed vanilla townie and no one said anything, I realized TS didn't know what the vanilla townie role was either. I should've pushed that point more too.

(Sorry for triple posting, I'm just posting realizations as they come, haha.)

Oh, and thanks for modding Mallow! I really enjoyed this game, and thought it was very well done. I really enjoyed everyone on the player list too, and I thought each person added a unique playstyle to the game. It was really fun getting to know all of you and see how you played. And Umbrage, sorry for tunneling you. I was just so convinced you were scum, especially once I thought Am was the doc.

[Final Fires]

Aww, if there had been a doctor, by PoE Amrun was the only person who it could have possibly been.

why?

Because everyone else had vocalized not wanting the Vezok kill to happen besides Am. If they had been the doctor, they could've just stopped it. Therfore, Amrun was the only one who could've been the doctor.

And I thought the setup was fine. If we had just killed one of the three, we would've seriously damaged them; especially because then they only would've had two votes for the NK.

[Final Fires]

Guys, let's keep it civil.

Umbrage, believe it or not, I enjoyed playing with you and thought you were a good player. However, like Amrun said, correct reads mean nothing unless you can get the town to follow up on them. Regardless of whether or not your play was actually scummy, I thought you were scummy, so your opinions didn't matter much to me throughout the course of the game.

Plus, from my point of view, it made so much more sense for me to push a lynch against you, a claimed VT, than Amrun, a potential doctor. You said yourself:

Even if he's town, he's now used his power and is basically a confirmed VT, not someone we want alive.

We all made mistakes and have things we can learn from this game. However, making mistakes is part of being town. There's no reason for us to throw around the blame (especially now that it's over); hopefully we all learned a lesson and will be better players from it.

On a side note, I think this will be my last game of mafia. Even though I had a lot of fun, it's just too time consuming, haha.