Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[iamausername]

In addition to all the above, the fact is that I have not seen one single towntell anywhere amongst his posts. Not even a sentence anywhere amongst the gigantic quote war with Vordark that makes me think "wait, I can't see scum saying that". Not one. I am just about the most confident I have ever been about a D1 vote here.

Tunneler number two.

did you even read the rest of the post

do you have anything at all to say about the case

or is that it

'lol tunnelling'

why the fuck do i even bother

[Vordark]

...stuff...

FoS: Umbrage

Nearly every one of your posts is useless caps rage, while the few that have a reasonable tone aren't offering much of anything but continuing to tunnel SE for the weakest of reasons and claiming anyone that disagrees with you is "defending SE" and probably scum. And with half of this post looking like a thinly-veiled chainsaw for DY, I'm going with you being scum #2 as opposed to just failtown.

[Vordark]

This xtoxm wagon advanced much faster than I'd expect a wagon on anything but obvscum to go. Coupled with the lurking town vibe I'm getting off him, I'm inclined to believe scum are pushing it. Lurker = easy target, easy vote. And five votes for a lurker when there are more suspicious players is a joke.

CS's posts, in particular his replies to mine regarding DathYoshi, are

serious

chainsaws and pushing an easy wagon. For example, in CS's long post (#299), he offers a chainsaw of Umbrage against myself, SE and Ythan, he offers a chainsaw of DY against me, then finally pushes a vote of xtoxm based on lurking and, wait for it,

another

chainsaw for DY.

I'm calling DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy and Umbrage scum, in order of relative certainty. I think there's an outside chance Umbrage is just tunneling town, but either way I think he deserves a vig shot tonight when DY flips scum.

[Umbrage]

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

VOTE: xtoxm

...stuff...

FoS: Umbrage

Nearly every one of your posts is useless caps rage, while the few that have a reasonable tone aren't offering much of anything but continuing to tunnel SE for the weakest of reasons and claiming anyone that disagrees with you is "defending SE" and probably scum. And with half of this post looking like a thinly-veiled chainsaw for DY, I'm going with you being scum #2 as opposed to just failtown.

That's funny. I've been doing caps and focusing on SE for quite a while now, but you only notice it after I make a post on you? Huh. Interesting.

[Vordark]

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

VOTE: xtoxm

I, for one, am shocked.

Shocked

I say.

That's funny. I've been doing caps and focusing on SE for quite a while now, but you only notice it after I make a post on you? Huh. Interesting.

Are you high?

[implosion]

Vote count 1.8:

Xtoxm - 6 (DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy, Regfan, Abelcain, Quaroath, Umbrage) (L-1)
Krazy - 0
Umbrage - 1 (Ythan)
Ythan - 0
ConSpiracy - 0
Regfan - 0
Snake Eyes - 0
Vordark - 0
Quaroath - 0
Abelcain - 0
iamausername - 0
DarthYoshi - 4 (iamausername, Vordark, Xtoxm, Snake Eyes)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Krazy.

With 12 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.

Prods: none.

Deadline is 8:30 EST on Wednesday, March 23,

less than a week away.

[Umbrage]

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

VOTE: xtoxm

I, for one, am shocked.

Shocked

I say.

That's funny. I've been doing caps and focusing on SE for quite a while now, but you only notice it after I make a post on you? Huh. Interesting.

Are you high?

Let me see... sarcasm and a personal attack. Yep, I'd say I've found scum.

[Abelcain]

@Quaroath: Good luck with everything that's going on with your wife.

Just by the by, can anyone remember the last time Ythan said anything that made any kind of impact on this game?

Well, the last time Ythan said anything useful it made Umbrage trip all over himself because he had a vote on Quaroath while he was still pushing his Snake Eyes case, and it made him change his vote. He's also somewhat close to the three-days mark since his last post, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

And no matter how long ago he made an impact, it's still more recent than the last time Xtoxm made an impact.

Speaking of Xtoxm, for someone who isn't scum he sure doesn't seem to be putting up a huge defense. I know it's all crazy levels of WIFOM to even

suggest

this, but I'm getting a strong feeling that Xtoxm really is coasting scum and not just an incredibly lazy anti-town player based on his claim. I can't believe that he bothered to pick up the prod and not request replacement and then only give a claim when he's at L-2 immediately after a post like this:

@Everyone, we only have 5 days till the lynch and we need to be able to attain a claim before the lynch progresses as well as allow time for a counter-claim if there is one.

There was an hour and a half between Regfan's post and Xtoxm's claim, but he gave in way too easily. I'd normally believe that he's just not focused at all on this game, but the fact that he purposely picked up that prod makes me think otherwise, so I'm feeling good that my vote on him is in the right place.

My sister flips out if she hears someone say 'perturbed'. Certain words mean certain things to us, but attributing those to my arguments is just bad play.

Anecdotal evidence has no place in a game of Mafia. Or, to put it the way you would in your allcaps exaggerations: "WELL IF YOUR SISTER IS BOTHERED BY CERTAIN WORDS FOR NO GOOD REASON THAT MEANS THERE'S NO GOOD REASON ANYBODY COULD EVER BE BOTHERED BY THE WAY SOMEONE WRITES ANYTHING RIGHT? ESPECIALLY IN TEXT-BASED FORMAT LIKE MAFIA!"

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

I honestly can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not.

Otherwise this place has pretty much seemed like more of the same, with Regfan and iam going over Darth's posts with a fine-toothed comb, Umbrage howling about how certain he is that Snake is scum, Snake completely ignoring him and hoping that everyone else finds Umbrage's arguments to be too ridiculous to pursue, and a huge number of non-contributors like Xtoxm, Krazy, and Ythan. I have to admit Vordark's last post accusing CS of chainsawing for Darth and Umbrage has piqued my curiosity. I'll check it all out at the end of the weekend, since it's 4AM here and I have to wake up for work in a few hours.

[Krazy]

First, there's some questions from like a week ago that I completely missed.

@ Krazy, you recently seem to have dropped your vote and suspicion for Ythan, does that mean you currently think he's town?

Ythan has been upgraded to null-tell in my book.

Krazy: The funny thing about a vote that looks like it is an attempt to make it seem like you're not tunneling and a vote that means you're not tunneling is that there is no difference.

@ Krazy, you seem to be of the opinion that Yoshi is/was tunnelling on you, can you point out what posts he did so?

In this post I was actually responding to DY's claim that I was tunneling on Ythan. I was not characterizing DY as tunneling on me here.

All this just proves my point: you did not fine my VOTE on CS to be scummy. You saw someone make a SERIOUS vote in RVS and thought: "Hey, that would make an excellent wagon!" Now, you JUST SAID that you did not wagon me to get out of RVS. You ALSO said that you did NOT find me scummy at that time! Which means that there is NO excusable motive for wagoning me. NONE. Either you were watching out for your buddies ConSpiracy and xtoxm, or you were looking for a good wagon. EITHER WAY YOU ARE SCUM. EITHER WAY YOU NEED TO DIE.

Umbrage, like several other players, I have a VERY SLIGHT townread on you, but posts like this are seriously bothering me. Again and again you make a not-totally-empty but still weak as hell case against someone and then say YOU NEED TO DIE! It's like, even if I sort of agree with you, the cases you've been making just aren't really all that damning.

This xtoxm wagon advanced much faster than I'd expect a wagon on anything but obvscum to go. Coupled with the lurking town vibe I'm getting off him, I'm inclined to believe scum are pushing it. Lurker = easy target, easy vote. And five votes for a lurker when there are more suspicious players is a joke.

CS's posts, in particular his replies to mine regarding DathYoshi, are

serious

chainsaws and pushing an easy wagon. For example, in CS's long post (#299), he offers a chainsaw of Umbrage against myself, SE and Ythan, he offers a chainsaw of DY against me, then finally pushes a vote of xtoxm based on lurking and, wait for it,

another

chainsaw for DY.

I'm calling DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy and Umbrage scum, in order of relative certainty. I think there's an outside chance Umbrage is just tunneling town, but either way I think he deserves a vig shot tonight when DY flips scum.

The first sentence here bothers me... first, how fast, really, was the wagon on Xto? Second, why wouldn't it be that fast after some of the ridiculous posts he's been making? I mean, have you been reading them? For real?

The other thing here is that, I am going to go on a limb and say that I do not believe based on posts like this that Vordark and DarthYoshi are both scum together. They can both be town, or one can be scum, but if one is scum, they are not of the same faction. This will be important later.

__

Now I would just like to make an observation. AbelCain and Vordark never talk *to* each other. Seriously, read their isos, there's like one point where they make one very courteous response to each other and that's it. Neither really characterizes their reads on each other (except briefly in V's massive early wall-post of the entire early-game), neither has put either player up in relation to other players, etc. For two players that have been so relatively active, this actually bothers me quite a bit. I feel like, looking at either player, they talk to every other active player at some length, except each other.

So let's pretend that AC and V are scumbuddies. They are smartly putting themselves on different wagons today. So then the question becomes, is either one bussing an ally? As I mentioned above, I am very skeptical of the idea that V is bussing DarthYoshi. That combined with my faint-town-leaning-null-read on Yoshi has me thinking that's certainly not a bus. (That being said, iamausername did make a fairly decent case here to characterize DY as active lurking/poor scumhunting, etc. But I feel like a lot of it rested on the "DY being self-conscious about appearing townish" which, although I can see where he's coming from, seemed a touch blown out of proportion).

Abelcain bussing Xtoxm is certainly a possibility, especially with the way that Xtoxm has been playing. If I was scum I would bus fast and bus hard, UNLESS my scumbuddy was also bussing hard and fast, in which case I'd try to appear skeptical. That being said, I'm hesitant to believe that either is necessarily bussing an ally on d1.

So I'm trying to think who else would make possible scumbuddy:

There are two players I would instantly eliminate from a AC/V scumteam, and two players who coincidentally I am also leaning town on:
Umbrage - Would be leaning town, but null-tell because of his "[weak point] - THEREFORE YOU MUST DIE" posts.
ConSpiracy - Nullish but leaning town.

Another player I am leaning town on but would not eliminate from a AC/V scumteam is: iamausername.

That leaves four players that I have relatively weak reads on (continuing with the above observations and continuing the thought experiment of an AC/V scumteam) for non-bussing possibilities:

Regfan - Null, for now. Too new for a clear sense, but listed AbelCain as a scumread. That's something at least, so seeing this as the least likely of the four of my current nulls.

Quaroath - I don't like this one, largely because of Q's posts, a lot of them are in direct response to V. Could fit with an AC scumteam (for much of the same reasons I'm currently positing the AC/V scumteam), but would be less happy with an AC/V/Q scumteam.

Ythan - Null, for now. This is not the Ythan I know from last game, and that is making it very difficult to read him (in addition to his sort of dip in activity). Could fit with an AC/V scumteam, (or an AC/Q scumteam). Has never interacted with Vordark, Abelcain, or Quaroth. Fits, but there are several other players Ythan hasn't really interacted with either so this could easily be coincidence.

Snake Eyes - Nullish. Has interacted with Q in such a way that would slightly push him away from a scumteam with him. Almost fits too well with a Vordark/Abelcain team, since that would mean the scum presented a united front.

So AC/V/Q, AC/V/Q, or AC/V/SE all work in this current thought experiment. As does, additionally, AC/V/Xto (with bus).

I'm aware that the problem with the current train of thought is that AC, V, and SE have all seemed so "sane" in comparison to Umbrage, and so that they might have had a bit less of an impetus to prod each other. Still, even though Umbrage has continued to present his "epic cases" and people who were on the original anti-Umbrage wagon have continued to bite off at it, to the point that I sometimes wonder if they aren't persisting in it simply to make themselves look better in comparison to Umbrage's hysterical antics.

I definitely want to address the relationship (or non-relationship) between these players before nightfall. I will vote

Vordark

right now since some of his posts have bothered me marginally more than AC's, Q's, or SE's.

[Xtoxm]

Lol @ the people calling me scum for claiming vanilla townie. (Good place to start looking for scum tomorrow.)

You were obviously never going lynch to claimed power role, and scum were never going to claim anything but a power role on day 1. So basically what you wanted was a vanilla townie to offer himself as the day 1 sacrifice. So here I am, you've found your sacrifice. I don't get to experience the

actual

play of this setup...The greater good, and what not.

Good luck.

[iamausername]

because it's not in his interest to point out when townies are town. Because he wants to lynch townies. Because he's scum.

(As an aside, I was hesitant about getting a read on Regfan before he voted, but his entry so far looks pretty townish.)

Just want to point out what an awful response this is.

To Snake Eyes: "If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both."

This goes back to the point I made above about his comment that one of the lurkers is probably scum. He's identifying a group, in this case Snake and Umbrage, and suggesting that there is scum in this group, but gives no indication of any opinion on which player in that group is more likely to be scum, or any indication that he is trying to determine which player in that group is more likely to be scum.

He's just stirring the pot on the Snake/Umbrage slap fight with no real justification. It would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that Snake and Umbrage are not scum together based on their spat. It would even be reasonable to draw the conclusion that individually, Snake is scummy, and individually, Umbrage is scummy, but their spat suggests that they are not scum, and therefore one of them is scum but not the other. But that's not what Yoshi has done. He has jumped straight to the conclusion without first finding any reason for either of them to be scummy on their own merits. He has no reason to discount the possibility that this is a town-on-town fight. But he discounts it anyway,

This was the main thrust of the argument, to which he says nothing. No explanation for why it is that he thinks Snake is scum, or why he thinks Umbrage is scum. All he responds to a somewhat facetious closing remark with a statement that's totally unrelated to the main issue here.

But you know, you just go back to lynching Xtoxm because he's not bothering to play the game. Don't mind me, I'm just tunneling.

[Xtoxm]

Iam, I was bothering before, but there is no point anymore. I was clearly widely suspected and going to be lynched at some point anyway. It is better to be mislynched earlier rather than later. At any rate, the moment I claimed I put a death sentence on myself. I have given my input for the day, that is all I can do. I have said that DarthYoshi is my top suspect, followed by Abelcain. Not that this means anything.

[Krazy]

For someone who lists DY as their top suspect you seem to be doing EVERYTHING YOU CAN to ensure you are lynched instead of him.

[Ythan]

Should be recovered from Saint Patty's Day in the morning. It doesn't look like a whole hell of a lot has changed but I'll get all nice and caught up then.

[Umbrage]

Anecdotal evidence has no place in a game of Mafia. Or, to put it the way you would in your allcaps exaggerations: "WELL IF YOUR SISTER IS BOTHERED BY CERTAIN WORDS FOR NO GOOD REASON THAT MEANS THERE'S NO GOOD REASON ANYBODY COULD EVER BE BOTHERED BY THE WAY SOMEONE WRITES ANYTHING RIGHT? ESPECIALLY IN TEXT-BASED FORMAT LIKE MAFIA!"

Certain words mean certain things to us, but attributing those to my arguments is just bad play.

Did you even bother to read the whole quote? Or were you just LOLZ ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE I CAN POST IN CAPS TO!!11?

I honestly can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not.

Not sarcastic. We have to kill xtoxm. These are the problems with him being alive:

1) We run the risk of outing a PR if we decide to lynch someone else.
2) The mafia have one less potential PR out there, making it more likely that they will hit a PR.
3) However, we have the exact same chance of hitting a scum tomorrow. If xtoxm was dead, then at least our chances of hitting scum would improve with their chances of hitting us.
4) Most of next day will revolve over whether or not we made the right decision keeping him alive.

Umbrage, like several other players, I have a VERY SLIGHT townread on you, but posts like this are seriously bothering me. Again and again you make a not-totally-empty but still weak as hell case against someone and then say YOU NEED TO DIE! It's like, even if I sort of agree with you, the cases you've been making just aren't really all that damning.

Saying my case is weak doesn't help any of us. Show why my case is weak.

Lol @ the people calling me scum for claiming vanilla townie. (Good place to start looking for scum tomorrow.)

You were obviously never going lynch to claimed power role, and scum were never going to claim anything but a power role on day 1. So basically what you wanted was a vanilla townie to offer himself as the day 1 sacrifice. So here I am, you've found your sacrifice. I don't get to experience the actual play of this setup...The greater good, and what not.

Good luck.

Iam, I was bothering before, but there is no point anymore. I was clearly widely suspected and going to be lynched at some point anyway. It is better to be mislynched earlier rather than later. At any rate, the moment I claimed I put a death sentence on myself. I have given my input for the day, that is all I can do. I have said that DarthYoshi is my top suspect, followed by Abelcain. Not that this means anything.

I have never ever ever ever seen a townie act like this when getting lynched. "Not that this means anything"? You still have a pretty good chance at winning, dude! Why the apathy?

I was wavering on xtoxm before, but these posts seal the deal for me. He's scum. Let's roll.

[Vordark]

This xtoxm wagon advanced much faster than I'd expect a wagon on anything but obvscum to go. Coupled with the lurking town vibe I'm getting off him, I'm inclined to believe scum are pushing it. Lurker = easy target, easy vote. And five votes for a lurker when there are more suspicious players is a joke.

CS's posts, in particular his replies to mine regarding DathYoshi, are

serious

chainsaws and pushing an easy wagon. For example, in CS's long post (#299), he offers a chainsaw of Umbrage against myself, SE and Ythan, he offers a chainsaw of DY against me, then finally pushes a vote of xtoxm based on lurking and, wait for it,

another

chainsaw for DY.

I'm calling DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy and Umbrage scum, in order of relative certainty. I think there's an outside chance Umbrage is just tunneling town, but either way I think he deserves a vig shot tonight when DY flips scum.

The first sentence here bothers me... first, how fast, really, was the wagon on Xto? Second, why wouldn't it be that fast after some of the ridiculous posts he's been making? I mean, have you been reading them? For real?

It hit five votes more quickly than wagons I've seen on scum Day One, and certainly had more steam than any of the other wagons on more viable suspects.

Yes, I have been reading his posts. For

real

, dude! He's lazy town.

Now I would just like to make an observation. AbelCain and Vordark never talk *to* each other. Seriously, read their isos, there's like one point where they make one very courteous response to each other and that's it. Neither really characterizes their reads on each other (except briefly in V's massive early wall-post of the entire early-game), neither has put either player up in relation to other players, etc. For two players that have been so relatively active, this actually bothers me quite a bit. I feel like, looking at either player, they talk to every other active player at some length, except each other.

Ablecain reads town to me now. He has for a while. I don't bother scum hunting people I don't believe are scum.

I definitely want to address the relationship (or non-relationship) between these players before nightfall. I will vote

Vordark

right now since some of his posts have bothered me marginally more than AC's, Q's, or SE's.

Can you state a succinct case that doesn't require the implicit assumption that I

am

scum? So far we've only heard that some of my posts have "bothered" you, and that I didn't mention someone. By the way, I haven't spoken "directly" with you, Ythan, xtoxm or SE either. Is there a reason you fixate on Ablecain in particular?

[Regfan]

I promised I'd do this when I got time earlier, and now I'm fully caught up with this thread so I'm going to point out the posts where I think Abel was slightly over-defensive. Same ISO system as before, however I'll add D = post revolving around defence for this ISO.

1. RVS. N.
2. Answer to DY's RQS. N.
3. Votes Krazy for suggesting to policy lynch. N.
4. Answers Yoshis question in regards to his reasoning for the Krazy vote. Questions Umbrage. N. D.
5. Points out Umbrages contradiction but refrains from stating a read on him. T1.
6. Same as Post #5. N.
7. Does a minor wagon anaylsis and draws no conclusions from it just states Umbrage is making a big deal over nothing. N.
8. Defends Vordarks attack on the 'backpedal on somtehing he's been called out on'. Suggests lynching Umbrage due to the 'Lynch all Liars' policy which contradicts his vote and reasoning in Post #3. S1. D
9. This entire post leads to no meaning, no benefit and no real scum-hunting. It's merely a post for the sake of seeming active. S1.
10. Continues pointing out the wholes in Umbrages arguments, you'd think by this point he'd have put a vote on Umbrage however he witholds doing so. I'd like a reason for this. S1.
11. Explains a misconception of his previous post. N
12. States he's finally starting to understand where Umbrage is coming from in relation to SE. States minor reads on a few players to the extent of 'They're lurking is bugging me'. N Leaning S1.
13. His first real vote of the game, and it's on Quaroth for posting promising more content later, you'd think with the previous play it would be on SE or Umbrage. Brings up misconception about scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy. S1.
14. Unvotes after seeing material from Quaroath, states he doesn't like iamusernames lack of content. Promises ISO's to come, the rest of the post is merely understandable filler. N.
15. His big ISO post. States null-read on CS and Darth mafia. The ISO on Darth highly logical and I find myself agreeing with it. T1 leaning T2.
16. Responds to my questions left for him while doing an ISO on Umbrage resulting in a slight-town read, I find myself agreeing with this ISO as well. T1 leaning T2.
17. Shows willingness to discuss setup-theory to work out if there's an optimal way to play it. T1
18. Points out CS"s comment of 'massclaiming ruins the game' and points out it would be gamethrowing not to, something I agreed with until I finished running the numbers. Examines Umbrages case on Snake, draws some valid conclusions throws his second real vote in the game, this time on Xotxm for lack of content again. Start of the post I would say T1, second half S1. I'll leave this as an N overall.
19. Points out that Xotxm's lack of content and defence is a massive-scumtell which I would agree and disagree with. Though I'm unusure how his vote continues to stay on Xotxm without doing an ISO on him as he has done on several other players in the game. S1.

Overall the quality of his posts peaked half way through the day, since then his post quality has been stagnating however this seems to be the case with several players. My reads dropped from him to scum-read to null/scum read.

As for Xotxm I find his lack of defence and Vanilla claim to be somewhat disheartning, it's not typical scum nor town behavior though I can see it being understanable if Yoshi is his partner and he has nowhere else to push. So for now my vote holds.

[Krazy]

Yes, I have been reading his posts. For

real

, dude! He's lazy town.

This is several steps away from being lazy to being self-admittedly suicidal. "Lazy" is not the first word I would use to describe someone who says they "signed their own death warrant" when they hardclaimed VT for no reason.

Can you state a succinct case that doesn't require the implicit assumption that I

am

scum? So far we've only heard that some of my posts have "bothered" you, and that I didn't mention someone. By the way, I haven't spoken "directly" with you, Ythan, xtoxm or SE either. Is there a reason you fixate on Ablecain in particular?

Because with Xtoxm you'd be pushing away from a lynch, and both Ythan and SE I mention are viable third-candidates for a scumteam with you. I mentioned AC first because I noticed it first, and also sometimes got the impression you were either working around each other or mutually supporting each other's positions. You felt more "buddied" than you and Ythan without any buddying having occurred directly in thread. But it would require a very long post to try to show this and I thought it'd be easier to just ask you about it first, since it's still more of an impression than a damning fact. I can't tell if you both just think a lot alike, or if one of you at all thought the other was sheeping positions but trying to make it seem like the positions came from just the obvious impressions of the thread.

How about this Vordark, what do you think of AC's vote on Xtoxm? Is it scummy opportunism? I know I could ask this about anyone on the Xtoxm wagon, and if there IS someone on the Xtoxm wagon (other than CS which I think you already mentioned) that you think is opportunistic scum, I'd like to hear about them too.

[Krazy]

EBWOP: "You felt more "buddied" than you and Ythan without any buddying having occurred directly in thread." -->
"You felt more 'buddied' with AC without any buddying having occured in thread".
No idea how I butchered that sentence so badly.

[Vordark]

Can you state a succinct case that doesn't require the implicit assumption that I

am

scum? So far we've only heard that some of my posts have "bothered" you, and that I didn't mention someone. By the way, I haven't spoken "directly" with you, Ythan, xtoxm or SE either. Is there a reason you fixate on Ablecain in particular?

Because with Xtoxm you'd be pushing away from a lynch, and both Ythan and SE I mention are viable third-candidates for a scumteam with you. I mentioned AC first because I noticed it first, and also sometimes got the impression you were either working around each other or mutually supporting each other's positions. You felt more "buddied" than you and Ythan without any buddying having occurred directly in thread. But it would require a very long post to try to show this and I thought it'd be easier to just ask you about it first, since it's still more of an impression than a damning fact. I can't tell if you both just think a lot alike, or if one of you at all thought the other was sheeping positions but trying to make it seem like the positions came from just the obvious impressions of the thread.

Alright. I don't agree, but I can see at least some reason why you'd prioritize AC over the other candidates I've mentioned. One candidate I didn't mention though would be iamusername. There's a much stronger case of "buddying" between him and myself than with any other player, yet the only mention you made of him was once sentence at the end of your scumteam speculation: "Another player I am leaning town on but would not eliminate from a AC/V scumteam is: iamausername." I'm curious as to why you would assert a scum team between myself and AC, when this other pairing appears more viable given your reasoning.

Regardless, your paragraph above still isn't giving me a case as to why I'm scum in the first place. It's speculating on scum teams based on interactions, which I've pointed out requires you to assume I'm scum in order to be damning. Do you have a case for me that does not require we take as a given that I'm scum?

How about this Vordark, what do you think of AC's vote on Xtoxm? Is it scummy opportunism? I know I could ask this about anyone on the Xtoxm wagon, and if there IS someone on the Xtoxm wagon (other than CS which I think you already mentioned) that you think is opportunistic scum, I'd like to hear about them too.

AC was vote number four on the BW for Xtoxm. I don't think much about it. His stated reason for voting him (which was essentially for lurking) is a null tell for me. I'll note that Quaroath and Umbrage both dropped votes on the wagon after, so Xtoxm is now sitting at L-1. I would consider these later votes to be more "scummy opportunism" than a vote that takes someone to L-3.

And yes, I can tell you the people on the wagon I believe are scum. Because

all three

of the people I've called have shown up there. DY and CS were there before, Umbrage dropped his vote there shortly after I FoSed him (the L-1 vote).

I think Xtoxm is being useless to the town and is probably too willing to go down with the ship to avoid a mislynch today. It's bad for the town, but it's not scummy. I really don't think he's flipping scum.

[Snake Eyes]

Iam, I was bothering before, but there is no point anymore. I was clearly widely suspected and going to be lynched at some point anyway. It is better to be mislynched earlier rather than later. At any rate, the moment I claimed I put a death sentence on myself. I have given my input for the day, that is all I can do. I have said that DarthYoshi is my top suspect, followed by Abelcain. Not that this means anything.

You are playing just awful, regardless of your alignment. It is by no means playing to your win condition to claim and give up at L-2, and if you just didn't want to play you should have requested replacement. If you truly are town then you're certainly not doing yourself any favors here.


Generally, xtoxm's play makes me think of him as bored/frustrated townie, but it is a bit weird how he says he was going to be lynched at some point anyway. I really don't get why a townie would think this. After all, if DY - his top suspect and the other wagon candidate - is scum and we lynch him, a lot of the suspicion on xtoxm is gone. It seems more the sort of thing a suspected scum who had no intention of bussing his buddies would think.
As for what this makes DY, originally I thought xtoxm being scum would mostly clear DY, but Regfan makes a good point that if they're both scum, as unlikely as it is to have 2 leading scumwagons, then xtoxm's vanilla claim and giving up makes sense.


I still think DY is more likely scum, but when xtoxm gives up like this and half the playerbase is suspicious of him, we're probably going to have to lynch him so we might as well do it today. Alternately, we could leave him alive and suggest the vig take care of him, but I'm uneasy about forcing the vig to choose vig and direct him like that on the first night.

[Krazy]

V, a lot of my suspicion of you right now is my understanding of how people interpret my meta and how scum try to play me. Apparently, I give the impression of being "gullible" and a semi-weak player, so on D1-D2 scum will try to agree with some of my points and/or try to guide me into a wagon. A lot of your case against DarthYoshi is basically that DY provoked me, when really town provoking me is not an uncommon occurrence since I can be abrasive. On the other hand, my blitz against Ythan was a bit extreme even for me, and it seemed like a lot of the townies this game simply wanted to ignore it completely. That, combined with DY giving a "tl;dr" response instead of finding something substantially wrong with my interaction with Ythan was actually a bit provocative, so DY is hardly clear in my book. But, based on the majority of experiences I've had, scum will try to be on my side more than against me, since they can see me as useful to their causes.

The other thing about your posts, V, is that you seem to do an iso on Snake Eyes, but your tone throughout is one of using your iso of Snake Eyes to cast more suspicion at Umbrage and keep the attention on the on-going debate there. Just as you've seemed to tiptoe around AC, it didn't seem like you were actively scumhunting SE. Again, this does fit your characterization of yourself that you don't scumhunt people you have townreads on. However, would scum try to keep attention on Umbrage, whose ragecapsing etc. make him an easy target for a lynch? Would scum avoid confronting me so that they can guide me into a lynch? Yes, scum would do both of these things, and so have you.

I'm also just generally concerned with the way that you, Snake Eyes, and AC have seemed to present a united front, without any of you really seeming concerned that any of you are sheeping etc.

Unfortunately, scum or town, you've played a good game so it's not like I can poke at your posts and say, "OMG BASED ON QUOTE XYZ YOU ARE OBVSCUM!" My suspicion of you right now is based predominantly on your relationships and my understanding of how scum interact with me. Outside of these things, I would only point at your non-scum-hunt-iso read of Snake Eyes as the only genuinely suspicious thing you've done, and it's only what Reg would call an "S1".

[Krazy]

That, combined with DY giving a "tl;dr" response instead of finding something substantially wrong with my interaction with Ythan was actually a bit provocative, so DY is hardly clear in my book. But, based on the majority of experiences I've had, scum will try to be on my side more than against me, since they can see me as useful to their causes.

Although on thinking of it a bit more, DY's response here and additional provoking of me while the rest of the town ignored me would make sense if he was paired with Ythan. But I'm not sure why he would continue to keep pressure on me in that case if a town-flip lynch on me would put Ythan in serious trouble, in that scenario.

[Krazy]

Krazy, come here pal! Join the XXX wagon!

Also V, a point to your credit, posts like the above do bother me, but usually scum aren't THIS obvious about it

[Umbrage]

xtoxm's profile says he's been here since 2007. I understand this play coming from a newbie, but an experienced player? I don't buy it. He was way too quick to claim. And when they are being lynched, town try to find the scum on their wagons.