Mini 1145 — Plain Mafia (over)

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: ICEninja

becaause I think you're the only player I have a completed game with

[DeathRowKitty]

Would we not have realized it was random if you hadn't told us?

[DeathRowKitty]

Well I can't vouch for your being town.

Vote: RangeroftheNorth

[DeathRowKitty]

Do you actually believe that's what I meant or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

[DeathRowKitty]

If you have problems with walls of text, you should speak up now.

*raises hand*

I don't really mind large posts, but if everything you post is a wall of text, I reserve the right to skim.

[DeathRowKitty]

I suppose we shouldn't be discussing theory, but if we are, now is the time to do so.

An occasional wall is nice if you have a lot to say. Posting a lot of walls is anti-town. Points tend to be lost in large posts and, if you post more than a couple of them, people no longer care to read them. Sure, you can blame it on the people who don't read your walls, but if you know they won't read them anyway, posting them constantly just means you're drowning the town in information and text that doesn't do much.

Basically, if you can make the same point in less words, it is pro-town to do so.

[DeathRowKitty]

As for the night 0 issue, I personally prefer it. Sure, it sucks for whoever gets killed, but it actually gives the town some information to work with.

We now know scum killed Kazlam. Great. Analyze that and lead us to victory, Mr. Night Zero.

(Night 0 in a 13 player game is kind of counterproductive, considering the switch to 13 players was to give town an extra mislynch that we now don't get.)

Also I assume we are still in the random voting phase? If so VOTE: Erratus Apathos

Why did you choose someone that didn't post yet?

Also, stop answering the questions from ICEninja. They're useless and distracting. For question 1, it doesn't matter when people post as long as they do post. For question 2, you can get a good enough indication of how many games someone's played by their profile, join date, and, if it actually helps to know as part of reading someone (which occurs with maybe one player per game), you ask about prior experience. As for how frequently someone posts, we'll find that out anyway as people start posting.

Having players answer the questions and being like "z-o-m-g i, like, totally played this many games here and that many games there and am playing this many games now here and that many there and I liked to play like this sometimes and like that other times and etc etc" is creating a poor atmosphere for scumhunting and not giving us useful information.

[DeathRowKitty]

Peabody vote <<< Lucresia vote

Unvote: RotN

Vote: Lucresia

@Peabody
I was in Mini 259 with you apparently (you replaced out though). I only ever played 2 newbie games (both as IC), so I doubt we met in one of those.

Pre-post Edit: The chances of us having something to lynch on from night 0 without a PR outing itself is very small and we shouldn't have PRs outing themselves day 1. For the 13 player thing, I meant as compared to 13 players without a night 0, but we actually don't have an extra mislynch over 12 players with a night 0 (lylo occurs on odd numbers, so you gain an extra mislynch on odd numbers (assuming day start).

[DeathRowKitty]

Oh no! Someone is lying in a way that's completely obvious and intentional about something barely game-related at all! He must be scum!

Be useful and vote Lucresia.

Pre-post Edit: ninja'd by Romanus; this was supposed to be directed at ICEninja

[DeathRowKitty]

You know what else changed? The game environment.

Why I voted Lucresia:

Hello All,

1) Eastern. -4 GMT right now. I work an early 2nd shift though, so I'll probably post mostly around mid day evening on lunch or at night after work.
2) On Mafiascum I modded and played some games back in 2005-2007 and also modded and played mafia games in 2002-2007 on the Grey labyrinth. I took a few year Hiatus and just came back this month.
3) Varies from a little to a lot no matter what role I play. Depends on how much I have to say and how much time I have in the day. However, you should at least have a post daily from me.

On a more important note, this information in my opinion is not helping us find scum. No one is going to take my time zone and post schedule and by able to make an intelligent determination whether I am scum or town. Also, I think detailed information is good because it allows for people to slip up more on their roles. However, walls of text for sake of walls of text is trying too hard and looks scummy. Please only post "walls of text" if you actually feel you have something worth pointing out.

I am a fan of random voting just because it provokes activity which leads to questions which finally leads us into a direction. Very happy we didn't lose a cop or doctor before day 1.

Vote: LynchKing

The name makes me feel he must through the hammer on a lot of lynches

Okay, whatever, I give up. From now on I might ignore anything in quotes. —Fenhl

In this post, we have the following:

1. Serious answers to your questions
2. a paragraph dedicated to saying the questions aren't useful (after answering them fully) and a statement about walls being scummy, followed by a statement that he likes the RVS
3. "Very happy we didn't lose a cop or doctor before day 1."
4. a random vote with a after it

So in his post, he answers your questions, then says those answers aren't useful. He repeats theory topics that have already been discussed (scum love to discuss theory) and posts his own theory statement unrelated to anything that's been discussed. Why? Well, first reason is because he's scum. Second is to justify random voting. For people calling Peabody out on being nervous scum, Lucresia's after his vote covers that for him.

[DeathRowKitty]

Oh, and I forgot to comment on the third thing in the list:

That's just the "congratulating the doctor" tell in a slightly different form. Instead of "doctor saved us!", it was "luck saved us!" Scummy in that regard, plus not something I would expect a town player to be thinking about.

[DeathRowKitty]

Bah. You think I would be more careful of gender, considering I constantly get called "she" (which hasn't been helped recently by the fact that I changed my gender to female for a week >.>).

You didn't address any of what I actually said. You said the questions were useless, but answered them anyway. Something to hide or not, what function did you expect that to serve?
I'm not arguing who you voted, but your over-justification of your vote and seeming nervousness.
And I never said town can't be happy a power role didn't die. I'm saying I would expect scum to be thinking about that at this stage, not town. Plus, the whole congratulating the doctor aspect of it.

[DeathRowKitty]

I like DRK's case on Lucresia. I also like Romanus' vote on Pine (PEDIT: And I think I like it a little more every time Pine posts).

VOTE: Lucresia

D1 wagon go go.

I endorse this product and/or service.

[DeathRowKitty]

/prodded

Sorry about that. Been playing marathon games and didn't realize I hadn't posted here. Will post later tonight (when marathon games are over)

[DeathRowKitty]

I think I said I'd catch up on this game yesterday, but obviously I didn't. Will catch up this game later today. /sailor's promise

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, off-topic but how do you link to posts? I forgot the code for that. I like to use links in longer posts.

Click in the little thing in the top left hand corner of the post and use the url from that. (tags work as follows: text that gets displayed)

Lucresia shouldn't have claimed at L-2, but she comes from a period of MS history where it was more customary to auto-claim at L-1/L-2 to avoid quickhammering. Early claim isn't scummy here. I wish she hadn't done it

The ICE wagon is terribad. Can't say I agree with the Lucresia wagon anymore, but I really see nothing on ICE (and have a town read on him).

People that pinged my scumdar during my read: AMP, Trendall, someone else whose name I forgot...oh, right, Valern. So I'm going to just vote without giving a reason here because I'm that cool.

Unvote: Lucresia

Vote: Valern

[DeathRowKitty]

I like your style EA: the "I'll quote everything ICEninja says and say it's scummy and hope people vote for him" strategy.

It works better if any of it is actually scummy btw.

[DeathRowKitty]

Anyway, ICENinja's defense has just descended into a flurry of personal attacks pretty quickly

I'm going to assume you haven't read my most recent post, because you'd have to be pretty unintelligent to say this after having read it.

Or, 'if you think I'm mafia you're stupid'.

Aside from his leaving out "or scum", I'm willing to agree with him.

AMP may or may not be scum, but I'm actually going to just shift to a different ICE voter.

Unvote: Valern

Vote: Trendall

I've been having trouble deciding between them and I think I might have picked the wrong one initially.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, just to shed some light on some of things, the following players are town. You can stop voting them now:

Me! (obv)
ICEninja
Lucresia
Erratus Apathos (probably)

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK, what causes you to feel that Lucresia is a town read? I can understand not thinking she's scum at this point, but flat out giving a town read? That seems a bit of a stretch.

It's partly gut with the posts themselves, but in terms of tangible features, claiming VT at L-2 with no one expressing immediate desire to hammer and then posting a single massive post of reads seems pretty town.

So I think this is the part of the game where I pretend not to be capable of reading English as an excuse to skim all the walls >_> (I'll probably read them in their entirety eventually...)

To be honest, this was just a prod-dodge post until

probably

tonight when I start making full posts in games again.

[DeathRowKitty]

Making a useful post within in the next couple of hours (posting this now because I think I"m about to be up for prod)

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK’s #112: I am also suspicious of how quickly the ICE wagon formed, but picking Valern and explicitly not giving a reason is anti-town regardless of your alignment. Valern’s vote on ICE is terrible, it is more indicative of an opposition of personalities rather than alignment, but I want to hear your reasons for voting. You rattle off a list of scumspects and don’t actually say why you find them scummy. Weak.

Eh, I'm usually bad with reasons.

You brought up some interesting points about ICE. I don't think they looked quite as bad in context, but I'll check on that.

....actually, without bothering to do that yet, I'm really liking ICE's posts since then and will now baaaaaaaaa all over him.

Unvote: Trendall

Vote: Valern

Huh....in the interest of not making this post too long, I made it a lot shorter than I expected. I might go back and comment on more things >.>

[DeathRowKitty]

Hey guys! Post coming soon.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry this post took so long. I got a bit sidetracked.

Unvote: Valern

I don't think Valern is scum. It's partly his most recent post. In fact, it's largely that. It was a good post.

The Peabody wagon built up really fast. I'm not suspicious of the wagon for building up so quickly though. I would actually be more concerned if it built up slightly less quickly. Four votes in five posts (the fifth post being a double post) is something scum simply wouldn't want to be associated with. Can't say I agree with the wagon though.

I know I've already moved between Valern and Trendall once, but I'm going to do that again here.

Vote: Trendall

It's mostly for reasons EA brought up. This post. It really seems like poorly-disguised self-preservation, especially when taken in combination with his next few posts after it. It really seems like he's trying his hardest to create a position for himself relative to ICEninja that would make his following of ICE make sense and it isn't working.

I'm going to reserve judgment on inHim until he's caught up. Aside form that, my reads haven't really changed since I last posted them, as far as I can remember.

[DeathRowKitty]

I guess this close to the deadline is a bad time to be having second thoughts, but I looked back and I'm starting to see the logic behind Peabody-scum. -_- Fine sticking with Trendall for now though.

Quilford can join the list of town players.

...

Actually, you know what

Unvote: Trendall

Vote: Peabody

I've been hit by a massive wave of apathy recently and I'm just now starting to get back into all my games. I'll be looking to get something useful up before deadline, considering I've been fairly useless the past several RL days.

[DeathRowKitty]

Strange that there were 2 kills, when there was only 1 night 0. Considering an sk would have no reason to nokill night 0, we probably have a vig (who probably shot Pine, since I doubt scum would kill him). May even be a one-shot vig or something, considering no shot night 0, though I would expect a one-shot to save its kill for a bit later on. But enough NK speculation.

I'll look into where I should place my vote later, but for now, there were a couple of comments about my vote change I never addressed at the end of the day. This isn't going to sound very convincing, but I pretty much just suddenly have a change of heart. My reads tend to change fairly quickly. Really all there was to that.

But anyway. More later. Ciao <3

[DeathRowKitty]

Hey, hey, calm it with the wagon here. Some people (i.e. ME) have said absolutely nothing today. >_> Posting something tonight for realz.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry about not posting last night. Fell asleep before I got around to it. If you see me posting elsewhere before I post here, you can nail me to a cross for it (post hopefully in a couple hours from now, if not, probably 5 hours).

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry for the delay. Let's just say something came up and leave it at that.

Re: my votes
There seems to be a lot of hate for my vote hopping so far this game. Going from memory, I've voted Lucresia, Valern, Trendall, Valern (again), Trendall (again), and Peabody. That's...not really votehopping. That's me voting Lucresia, flip-flopping on Trendall and Valern for an extended period of time, then eventually deciding they were both town and voting someone else. Of course, i voted that someone else kind of close to deadline, but it wasn't quite as close as it seems, given that Trendall was hammered before further potential vote switching. Also, my reads tend to be erratic when I'm not fully into a game. Yeah, I know, lame excuse.

To be honest, I'm really finding it easier right now to get town reads than scum reads. A bit more difficult to lynch off of those, but meh.

It seems like most/all of the posts so far today deal with the same few players, so I'm going to bypass addressing those and do mah own thang. Be back later with that. Baiiii

[DeathRowKitty]

In the interest of being as frustrating as possible while still saying something remotely useful, at least one (and probably exactly one) player that's been consistently pointing out I'm not posting is scum.

[DeathRowKitty]

In the interest of being as frustrating as possible while still saying something remotely useful, at least one (and probably exactly one) player that's been consistently pointing out I'm not posting is scum.

I want you to expand on this post please.

I posted very little yesterday. Obviously I'm going to get called out for that...but not by everyone.

Scum tend to follow along with trends like that. Scum see a player being harassed for something that's completely logical and they want in on it, so one of them will join the fun. The others will see their buddy bringing it up and don't want to all be seen attacking the same player.

So when I posted that, I didn't (and still don't) have any specific player in mind. It's fairly likely though that exactly one scum player harassed me about my posting.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not a huge fan of MC in this position, but I'm not strongly against it.

[DeathRowKitty]

I should probably explain my position a little better:

So far we've had a tracker and a doctor flip, whereas we've had 2 goons flip for the mafia. Balance-wise, I would guess that we either have one decent power role left or 2 kind-of-meh power roles. If someone has a result that's likely to put the game into a 1v1, it should be claimed now, since we can just lynch both players for an easy win, but barring that, I think it would be better to wait until 3 players alive to have the claim and potentially have a player clear from balance considerations.

[DeathRowKitty]

Meh, I probably shouldn't have said what I expected the balance to be, but I assume scum know which roles have flipped.

Oh and I think everyone aught to give Zodiark13 a round of applause for stepping in and saving this game in Fenhl's absence. Thank you good sir.

[DeathRowKitty]

No need to get pissy. Jeez.

I'm a

two-shot vigilante

. I practically reasoned out why I killed when I did in this post (I killed Pine, obviously). I killed once to get us onto odd numbers and haven't used my second shot, since it would waste a lynch. Should also explain why I didn't want to massclaim (me alive in lylo and confirmed from having shot = town can't lose unless final scum is kill-immune). Making me two-shot and having a night 0 was probably bad game design by Fenhl. Best play for a two-shot vig in this setup (barring a successful doc protect) is to just never use his second kill, since days naturally occur on even numbers.

Anyway, Valern is probably scum for his previous post.

Popcorn: ICEninja

[DeathRowKitty]

Soo...I'm clear! Way cool. I could ttly kill tonight and it wouldn't really change anything! I probably won't, but I can!

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't think ICEninja is scum.

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, so I have schoolwork to do, but come...uhh...whenever I'm not busy, I'm gonna go all crazy reading/scumhunting this game, considering I have a vig shot should we mislynch (and should I decide I'm confident enough on who scum is to actually shoot). Be on the lookout for Kitteh-hunting (and yes RoTN, I mean hunting

from

Kitteh, not hunting

of

Kitteh).

[DeathRowKitty]

I think those vote counts say Valern is scum.

(yeah, yeah, I know. this game is second on my list of immediate mafia-related priorities atm)

[DeathRowKitty]

This game has reached the top of my mafia-related priority list and something useful will appear here tonight.

[DeathRowKitty]

It's not like you couldn't have made a decision without me >.>

So here's where I'm currently at...I've been reading on and off for the past two hours and I've flip-flopped from Quilford to ICE and back (with a touch of Valern in the middle). I probably should have taken notes on specifics, but I didn't, so here's my "I don't want to be stabbed repeatedly for hammering without giving an explanation" summary:

Valern was the first of the three players I decided I didn't want to vote. I'd already decided that based on his self-vote, but had subsequently changed my mind and grown paranoid about him doing that as WIFOM. On reread, Valern's posts just generally didn't set off my gut and had two things going for them:
1) His thought process this game has seemed town. He's done some decent townhunting and scumhunting and his posts and stances have seemed very natural.
2) I can't actually remember any of them, but I remember catching a few nice town tells off of him. That's actually what ended up making him suspicious of him at one point (some of my more recent scum play has involved abusing things that are town tells in the current meta, but really have no reason to be aside from the fact that scum tend not to do them), but I eventually decided it's better to just take them at face value and he really does seem town.

Truth be told, my ICEninja read is a bit of a mess. I thought he was town early, was a bit less sure later, decided he was town again, etc, and then made the same flip-flops during reread.

So while you could say my ICEninja read is overdeveloped to the point where all I can do with it is WIFOM myself, the problem with my Quilford read is that it's underdeveloped. He replaced in around when I'd stopped paying much attention to the thread and I never got much of a feel for him in context. In my reread now, I read the thread very much out of order (day 3, day 2, end of day 1, start of day 1, lthe last page or so of day 4, middle of day 1 or something like that (and with varying degrees of depth)) and, not surprisingly, still probably lost a lot of the context. Quilford really hasn't stood out in his play in any way. He replaced Lucresia, who looked pretty bad at the start of day 1, but then responded rather calmly to the ensuing pressure. Her early vanilla claim made me write her off as town initially, but, depending on how familiar she is with either roles or site meta, it could be null.

If I'm going to be completely honest here, I haven't read Quilford very closely. My choice of him as scum right now is based more on the other players seeming more town than he does than on an actual read of him. The big thing that makes me question my ICE read (and it's probably been brought up by someone) is this post and his few after, which look like him awkwardly dancing around inHim's wagon.

I'm not going to vote yet. I would like to read certain things a little more closely when I'm less tired (yes, I know the deadline is in less than 24 hours) and then I'll look into placing a vote.

tl;dr
Quilford > ICEninja >> Valern, for now

[DeathRowKitty]

Hey, I read stuff, stop complaining. I apologize if wanting to vote correctly doesn't qualify as "finishing this game correctly."

(I'm in class right now and I'm just checking in to see what happened. I can get back to looking over things in a couple of hours.)

[DeathRowKitty]

Eh, I have a little time.

I'm reading posts from day 2 around the post I linked from ICE and I found an interesting reason Valern is probably town:

When the inHim wagon was in full swing and he'd already been asked for a claim, Valern comes in and votes Quilford. This is immediately followed by crazypianist doing exactly the same thing. Now, call me crazy, but having two scum decide to start a counterwagon when their buddy is likely to be lynched just doesn't seem likely to me. /WIFOM

[DeathRowKitty]

It's also a bit of a town tell for Quilford, considering he was apparently intended to be the counterwagon for inHim. It's not a huge town tell. If crazy really thought he could get Quilford lynched, it would make inHim look a lot better.

[DeathRowKitty]

Actually...if I'm allowed to just completely go against everything I've just posted, Valern apparently looks really bad when you read day 2 and day 3 in order...

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, I'm growing increasingly convinced that ICE is town.

Whether or not I shoot tonight (assuming the game makes it that far) will be dependent on how strong my reads are. If I can get a strong town read on one of the players, I'm going to shoot the other if we lynch wrong today (and will announce as such). If this is the case, if the player I say I'm going to shoot doesn't die, you know who to lynch tomorrow.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm around. I'll do a final look at the thread when I'm done depressing myself.

[DeathRowKitty]

So just over an hour until deadline...I'm around and will be for the next hour. If nothing changes, I'll hammer Quilford (no intention of hammering ICE). I probably won't be shooting tonight, but I do plan on using this time to try to get out a last opinion.

[DeathRowKitty]

No, actually I think I'm ready.

Vote: Quilford

I don't expect the game to go to night, but if it does, I won't be shooting.

[DeathRowKitty]

No, there were 5 players alive. Either I shoot tonight or town gets another lynch tomorrow.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, it would be funny if RotN is scum, considering we all just wrote him off today...

Anyway, assuming Quilford isn't messing with us, I won't be shooting tonight. Good luck tomorrow.

[DeathRowKitty]

Heh...whoops.

Not really sure why I wrote off RotN as scum. I think I saw everyone else do it and thought "hey, that guy was pretty town, wasn't he?" and just assumed he wasn't scum. Either way, well-played by him.

I do feel a bit better about having so much trouble choosing from Valern, Quilford, ICEninja though...I suppose that should have been a pretty decent clue to me that something was wrong...

Sorry for lurking so hard most of the game by the way. I really shouldn't be playing mafia anymore. I even had to have my other personality make one of my posts for me! (note: probably not serious about that) Anyway, probably done for a while excluding ongoing games.

Thanks to Fenhl for modding (though you really might want to reconsider a couple of your rules >.>) and thanks to Zodiark for stepping in when Fenhl was busy.