130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[Thor665]

/Forsooth

[Thor665]

Vote: Twistedspoon

Obvious scum is obvious - sheep me for more beard related win.

[Thor665]

Using random.org to generate a number from 1-21 I got: 14.

If I didn't already have a serious reason to be voting Twistedspoon I'd be all over this one.

That's two scum down.

@Ludi - I see little in game value to any of those questions. I'll answer that I'm a controlling jerk, I don't consider research to be cheating (rather the opposite), I don't steal, and I know how math works. Pleaase feel free to join the game anytime.

@evilpacman - I'd tend to do it after each night, as then you're functionally a weak cop. Also, there is a serious vote out on the table, feel free to join the voting of Twistedspoon (or Zombeh)

[Thor665]

vote pine

for not posting yet

You can honestly look at Zombeh and Twistedspoon and decide the guy who hasn't posted yet looks more scummy? Hww does that work?

@evilpacman - as exciting as the strategy discussion of your role is, I have $5 that says it's also possible to scumhunt while that is going on.

[Thor665]

random voting stage. operative word: random

No votes are random, all votes have meaning. Otherwise it would be impossible to leave RVS.
If you really are just "randomly" putting out a vote, how about you vote in support of someone who claims to have information? Maybe I'm a Daycop and you should back me. This isn't the newbie queue y'know

Zombeh I can see. However you're voting Twistedspoon for having the exact same thought I had when CJMiller said "at the" so I'll disagree on that one.

So you're not voting Zombeh because...?

@Quilford - your opinion on evilpacman's claim? Why don't you have one?

@Ion67 - your read on my scumtell on Twistedspoon or Zombeh please, I'm curious to hear why they're so weak you won't back either of them. Clearly you have to disagree with them for some reason. What is that reason and why should I be voting whoever you're voting? (Acronach)

[Thor665]

What page do votes become acceptable at?

[Thor665]

How was my RVS vote scummy?

Because you went out of your way to remove all evidence of your own opinions from the vote.
Also, you did a 21 number random generation, which meant you were even willing to consider a self vote.
Neither action strikes me as pro-town.

You've now also failed to comment on the claim we had in thread, did respond to the pointless questions in thread, and went immediately into defense of yourself.
Yeah - scum.

[Thor665]

in all seriousness though, my vote was probably more serious than any of the other votes currently up, so ya.

unvote

if it makes you feel better. its just a RVS vote anyway, not like im gonna keep it there.

Somebody totally missed my point.

If you see no value to the RVS why did you make the vote in the first place? (I'll presume the old standby answer of 'conformity to site meta' if you want to skip answering this)
Now that we've established you don't use RVS to scumhunt...um...what are you doing to scumhunt? I can't see it, and that looks scummy to me when i don't see scumhunting. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

Thor, Twistedspoon is not a D1 lynch, and Zombeh isn't scummy yet. So, let's unite and kill ACRONACH.

He's the only town read I have thus far. I'm nt sure about that wagon, what am I missing?

Also, why is Twisted "not a Day 1 lynch" If we lynch him Day 1 seems pretty functional that he would become one, so I'm pretty sure it's possible.

[Thor665]

@Acro - evilpacman actually isn't a Day 1 lynch - you let Hider claims potentially be weak cops, or let scum try to double kill them or something. After a while you can kill the hider or he dies and you get to learn about his weak cops. Basic, brilliant, and I have a beard so you should listen to me.

[Thor665]

thor, just interested, but is your vote on me a random one?
if not, what's the non-wifom reason again?
my reaction was normal as obvtown pacman pointed out

What does random and WIFOM have to do with each other? Sounds like you suspect you already know why I'm voting you and are trying to preemptively head it off.
Also, love how you manage to bring up how "obvtown" pacman (he's obv. town? When did that happen?) is defending you - just yet another reason Thor is totally off his rocker.

You're scum because you were trying to push a scumtell onto a player who had not even had a in game and while we were in confirmation. Not to mention, if the scumtell was real we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It was a scummy move of trying to setup an easy lynch Day 1.

Also, quite frankly, it's why I'm against the Acronach wagon. I honestly believe that if that slot *was* scum than the mod would have restarted because the comment did look questionable. The fact he didn't suggests to me that the mod felt safe enough that no slip was there, giving that slot a higher likelihood of being town than scum as compared to the rest of y'all. Keep up that surge wagon though, it's good information. And, yes, I understand his sudden hop onto Twisted looks suspect - I'm emotionally okay with that.

[Thor665]

Oh indeed, I shall 'fair' all over your face in this game...wait...I...? Let me go back and come in again.

What was the WIFOM?

[Thor665]

What was the WIFOM

And I think you're presuming a bit in trying to setup a lynch meaning you have to vote for him in the first 4 pages.

[Thor665]

well surely it would have been a better vote had i suspected him, than a random vote on bub, no?

Well, if you have to ask - since you brought it up and seemed to have issue with it, why didn't you vote for him? Why bring it up if it wasn't a viable tell to you?

I'll answer to the intent of my questions when everyone has had to a chance to either respond to them or reject them.

inb4 really weak explanation involving wanting to get on record those who will try to be solo stars or bend the rules versus those who will work with groups or within confines. Never mind the fact he could have asked with game related examples for more accuracy in the read.

We'll have to wait and see if I'm right.

I'm not holding my breath for those questions to be worth anything but spit on a plate, for the record.

No commentary on claims, and accusations that are happening in thread as we speak? Why not?

Thor - So because of the random votes, those people are scum? If anything, I'm looking at you for grasping as that so suddenly.

In my world I believe people can be held accountable for their actions and decisions and it's scummy to claim otherwise.
In your world...the opposite...amazing that it's actually more scummy to claim you have reasons for a vote than the opposite, isn't it?

[Thor665]

So what's your read on Arcy and why?

[Thor665]

I'm liking Thor so far. This will be a good game.
Magister's questions seem to be doing nothing but distracting people from playing the game. They've been the biggest portion of several opening posts now. It's a bit of an annoyance.
Buddying up with the player that several people are calling town plus ignoring a lot of useful information to talk about whether or not I'm gonna be lynched today which is extremely moot currently.

Just putting a couple of these side by side to see if they make more sense - for the record, Bub's "buddying" was agreeing with me about potential uselessness of Magister's questions...

That said, pacman did try to work in a 'ding' on me, so good on him I suppose.

Now that Twistedspoon mentions it, I don't like Thor not mentioning my agreeing with Twistedspoon on CJ's /out and continuing to push him harder than I like after I made that post.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest it's because you claimed Hider and that I don't lynch claimed Hider's day 1. if you hadn't claimed Hider I would be on you waaaaaay more - trust me, you're not sailing through due to awesome towniness exuding from your pores.

inb4 really weak explanation involving wanting to get on record those who will try to be solo stars or bend the rules versus those who will work with groups or within confines. Never mind the fact he could have asked with game related examples for more accuracy in the read.

Why do you feel the need to answer for his questions for him?

Because I like to look smart and clever, and I also hate the "ask random and nonsensical questions and act like somehow they have game meaning when they clearly do not except in the most vague psychological ways that never apply in game again even though the player implies they will" style questions...and I like to look smart. But, honestly, if he cribs my answer - whoo-hoo, his answer is meaningless and the most I gain is looking smart. If he comes up with something different well...I'll be *really* impressed.

@Gollum - I'm not sure votes will count if your entire post is bolded...or did you mean for that vote to count?

That said, I have a town read on Gollum as the only person who voted Acronach while also noting that his link didn't work - which means a lot of people potentially sold him down the river without ever clicking the link to see where he was coming from.

I'd like to hear who currently voting Acronach is a member at EpicMafia. C'mon, don't be bashful, I'm pretty sure we won't make fun of you for it. (and by 'we' I mean everyone else - I'll make fun of you)

@Furc - what's the value of the Nocman wagon?

[Thor665]

I can now see the Bub case.

I'm still extremely happy with the Twistedspoon case.

I'm feeling decent about Calcifer and flinter now.

Magister is starting to spiral down into scummitude. Cecily too. That's 4 people I now want dead for scumminess not even bringing into it the ones I just find to be lurking failstacks. I think I'd like to see more activity or more votes ( or *gasp* both) out of the bulk of the playerset. This is the sort of game that has me very early on wishing I was a 10 shot non-day ending Day Vig or something, gawds that role needs to exist in some game some where.

@Ion - what would you have said if Bub had continued to only respond to posts about him? Catch 22 much? Seriously, I want you to respond to this.

[Thor665]

Four people on day one in 5 pages of actual content... goodness that's some confidence. Thor, can you please give me reasons why myself, bub, and magister are scum, because I feel like that may have come out of absolutely no where.

Bub acts like that in every game. His attitude is nothing new so I'm not convinced on any case of his as of yet. So far, so much has been posted with very little of it actually being useful I can see why he's only answering questions directed towards him. And jumping in when Thor is on the rampage doesn't seem like a good idea. :/

I'm happy to explain those scumreads!

Cecily - I actually quoted your entire post above, and not just the question as is usually my wont, because your post encapsulates the reason you are scummy. let's look at it together and see the high points. Why does Thor suspect somebody? Defending Bub. Cecily doesn't come out and call Bub town though, no, just justifies his actions. No one attacking Bub looks scummy either just sort of...odd....that they are attacking him because Cecily sorta defends him I guess. But Thor is on a rampage - I won't actually call Thor scummy but let's throw out this "rampage" thing while also specifically asking him to explain his reads because *that* will chillax him, most assuredly.

Now, let's look at all of Cecily's other posts and examine them for reads...none? Okay, how about scumhunting...none? Okay, maybe some votes to at least stir stuff up...none? Okay, number of times suggesting that people who are actually trying to do something in thread are failing at life...2-3? Oh - and Cecily doesn't like hydras - good to know.

You're scum because you've done absolutely nothing that is helpful to town and yet you are attacking people even though you're not scumhunting.

Bub is scum because i agree with the call that he was being over focused on defending himself. Add in his awkward departure from the Acro wagon as soon as the pot started to boil there and the weird segueway onto "lurker vote that nobody should have an issue with" and you have a decent scum case on him.

Magister is scum for making up a questionnaire, hinting its worth something, being coy about dealing with it once people ask, leaving it out there as some sort of awkward red herring he wants people to respond to and waste time over before he explains it, and not having any issues with how much I'm bashing him and his methods even though I'm being fairly overt in the mockery of his methods. Also - I'm awesome and he bugs me, so he's scum.

Feel free to attempt to contribute 1/16th of what I just did in your next post, maybe you'll fool me into thinking you're town

[Thor665]

I want everyone that's not Ion and Bub to answer this.

Buy or sell: If Bub is town, Ion is scum.

I'll agree they are unlikely scumbuddies, but see no definite beyond that.

[Thor665]

And I will repeat what I said in my first non confirmation post: I do not have reads on people yet. I take as much time as I damn well please and don't see the point in rushing it and making myself look stupid for having to take it back four times. I can almost guarantee I will not be the leader of any wagon at least in these first few days because I just do not have the time to be on here and carefully reading everything everyone posts constantly.

And I will repeat what I said in my first non confirmation post where I also provided nothing on anyone: I do not have reads on people yet and am not performiong any actions to help me get those reads - I'm letting other people do all the work and acting like it makes me a...well, at least a "less annoying" player. I take as much time as I darn well please and don't actually need to help advance the game state and don't see the point in rushing it and making myself look stupid for having to take it back four times and, more importantly, lack of a paper trail of votes makes scummy Cecily go 'wheee!.' I can almost guarantee I will not be the leader of any wagon, or a vote on any wagon, or a commenter on any wagon...except randomly to defend Bud for some reason, at least in these first few days, never mind that we're already by the first few days and I still haven't done anything besides sorta defend myself here and make nothing posts, because I just do not have the time to be on here and carefully reading everything everyone posts constantly. Because, y'know, scumhunting of my caliber takes time now too...there is no clarification to be provided as to when "time" will come into my life or what needing time has to do with a belief that no reads should be given or are possible to be given in the beginning of the game.

I have language filters in my head, they tell me things. This is what your post looked like to me (well, mine was actually sung A Capella to me by a hippopotamus wearing a unicorn outfit who actually looked strangely like my mother - but the doctors tell me not to dwell on that part too much.

If you don't have time to participate in the game shouldn't you just replace out as opposed to posting occasionally and not scumhunting?

[Thor665]

Thors' a fellow of infinite jest, of the most excellent fancy, you must realize.

How many people haven't answered your questions and why aren't you pressuring them to?

[Thor665]

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

Harsh. I see that as an attempt to nullify packman's claim of you only responding to posts about you. I am usually very cautious with my votes, but in a game this large, I don't think I need to be.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

My question is specifically referring to this. Obv scum vote if Bub turns out to be a mislynch.

I feel like the quote you posted actually does the opposite of make the two seem unrelated. I understand being cautious about voting, but withholding a vote because it is "too early" while there are very few other votes on the person could indicate scummy association. And now in a game of such a comfortable size that fear of an early lynch brought on by a scum partner is almost gone and so ion can vote as he wants.

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

vote: pine

Lol.

Unvote: Twistedspoon
Vote: Cecily

[Thor665]

Thor is right. Don't be silly.

You missed the flow of my lol, for the record. I'll explain it, but I kinda want to see Ceily roll in and respond first.

Really not too found of Zombeh's deflection protection on pine...though I'll agree Jakalope responded awfully quickly to it. I'd add something, but I already have both of those guys on the scumlist already so...confirmation is me? Yes.

[Thor665]

@Magister Ludi

"ask random and nonsensical questions and act like somehow they have game meaning when they clearly do not except in the most vague psychological ways that never apply in game again even though the player implies they will"

::Swish:: Thor is awesome. Now please join us more with the scumhunting already in progress.

I said "almost willing to lynch for LAL". The reason it is almost is because it is

THOR

we are talking about. The guy could confess as scum, and I wouldn't lynch him D1, because I would be praying to God that it was a ploy and he was on my side.

This may need to be sigged.

Also, as long as I have your attention;

@FURC
@CABOOSE

Furc - Caboose is right, you actually totally misunderstood what I was saying about Cecily. Go back to the post in question, read it again, and realize that the giant block wall isn't me being hypocritical because all I'm doing is taking the text from her and changing it up to mock it for how terrible it is.

Caboose - furc is actually quite reasonable is suggesting there is hypocrisy from you and he tagged you flat out. However, two things; 1. The hypocrisy isn't really scummy and I don't care that he called you on it and neither should you. 2. I'm a big boy and can defend myself, the scummiest thing I've seen you do thus far today is all the blatant buddying.

I personally would love it if that entire debate line from the two of you dropped, It's silly and is distracting, and even if either of you got somewhere I don't think the end result would be a town or a scum tell so...???

Also, I'm not a big typer. Being new to ms, I should let you know that off the bat. This is as long as my posts get.

okay

seeing as this is your first post since your RVS vote, care to share some of your thoughts and reads with us?

what are the 3 scummiest things you've seen so far?

Best post I've seen from Twisted yet, which is a little sad, but I'll second it anyway.

Now the reasons behind Ludi's questions make sense, but I doubt that anything serious will come out from that. Still, his reasons weren't total crap and were noble in their objective, so I've going to say that Ludi is town.

I'd say leave the newbie defense in the road to rome. I still find him most suspicious right now.

You're totally missing the thrust of Calcifer's question though. Yeah, whoo-hoo, he's a newb. Yes, we all understand that. But your tell is newb centric - how are you moving it to a newb scum tell as opposed to a newb town tell?

[Thor665]

@Thor. Respond to what? You voted for me with nothing more than an "lol" as explanation. All you've essentially been doing thus far is mocking my posting style and who I'm voting for. Cool. I understand that you may not agree but that doesn't make me want to change my vote right away. If you're looking for a response for having a single vote from you on me, you're not going to get one.

I would like to replay for you a conversation that happened in this thread, names have been changed to protect the silly;

Handsome Bearded Town: Yo, C-Dawg, how come you're not voting?
C-Dawg: I like to make sure first. My vote is super accurate and awesome and cannot be risked until I hav emore information to vote with.
HBT: Lol, whut? No, seriously, c'mon, vote so you don't try to sideline your opinions.
C-Dawg: i must wait until I have perfect information, I won't be rushed!
HBT: This is silly, you're not doing anything but sort of drifting through and not giving reads, that's scummy.
C-Dawg: No it isn't, you're stupid for trying to rush me and are probably mean and not as handsome as your beard suggests. I need more info to make my case of win and cast a vote.
HBT: Whatevs, you are scummy and should probably be lynched.
Player X: I agree, that is scummy.
Player Y: Yeah, why is C-Dawg trying to sideline her vote?
C-Dawg: Vote: Lurking Player.
HBT: LOL, Vote: C-Dawg.

Do you see the scumtell now? Because I see a scumtell and a case on you. I also think LOL was a very concise and appropriate analysis of your decision to vote when and how you did. Don't dodge me because you want me to go away, you know I've got a better case on you than you'd like.

[Thor665]

Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

Do you have meta support for this?

[Thor665]

Meta case based off meta in this game only?

How is my case stupid again?

Okay, how about you address what made this the right time to vote - did it or did it not have anything to do with me and others noting that your lack of vote/opinion was scummy?

[Thor665]

<3 furc.

[Thor665]

How about instead of just grumping about some wagons you actually explain the Gollum read - that would be more helpful to me.

And your wrong Cecily wagon read could be Cecily herself so...
I agree about furc and Pine at the moment, Twisted too (moreso) and I don't understand the Nocmen read - all I'm getting there is newb, not newb town.

[Thor665]

Thor on Furclow:

I'm a big boy and can defend myself, the scummiest thing I've seen you do thus far today is all the blatant buddying.

For what it is worth, I've seen Furc buddy a lot as town.

For what it's worth I was pretty obviously talking about Caboose, not furc.

@Calcifer - Hate you, hate this play, like my last question, and not smart enough to see your angle or am too smart to fall for it, so...

[Thor665]

Probably a quote tag, I'd guess. Just smile and act polite about it or he modkills you

[Thor665]

<<<It would be far easier to list the things which Gollum has done that are town, rather than the quite extensive list of things making them scum. Seriously, look at Gollum's posts, and tell me, with a straight face, that it's pro-town play. I DARE you to.>>>

His ISO 5 looks town to me, and I said as much at the time. He had issues with Acro's actions but actually took the time to click a link rather than just scream how it was obvious scummy talk.
I don't find the rest of his iso townish, but yet I don't find it scummy either. Worst (and best) I could say is that it's a lurker slot. Yeah, he sucks for that - but I don't see that as a runaway case that, paired with the Acro vote, makes him obv. scum with the whole scumteam setup before us on a neat platter.

More than that: Gollum is confirmed scum by VCA; a Gollum-scum lynch would also create someone else who's confirmed town by VCA. And if SOMEHOW Gollum is town, said person would instead by confirmed-scum.

Why are you being vague about these? If I thought I had information that solid I'd be screaming it from the rooftops and trying to throttle people with it.

So, I'd prefer not explaining my reasons in more detail, but I'm quite convinced that Gollum, Zdenek, and Farside contains 2-3 scum, and that lynching them will give us the rest of the scumteam, regardless of their flip.

Hmmm, I'm null on Gollum and townish on farside. Would you be as happy lynching Zdenek as Gollum? If we lynch Zdenek do we get explained the obvious connections?

you'd better make a DARN-good case to convince me otherwise. Not only do you have to convince me they're scum (preferably with one or two other people you explicitly believe they are scum with--I'm not talking about two separate people being individually scummy; I'm talking about two people being connected!), but you ALSO have to convince me that you'll know who the scumteam is if they're town.

I could certainly provide this to the level you're doing so If Cecily flips scum than the scumteam is Cecily, Bub, and that Magister dude. Also, there is someone who will be definitely cleared OoooooWHEEEEooooo ::waves hand in mystical incantations::.

I've yet to see a Day 1 scumteam prediction bear fruit (unless maybe it was by furc or something, and he accusses so many people of so many things he always has a reference to 'calling it right' by the end ). I can't even think of anyone else on site (including Nacho) who plays that way and am surprised you seem to take that as base 1 starting point of how to scumhunt - especially considering you're being vague in your points.

...See?
This is why I don't give reasons.
'Cause while perfectly sensible to me, the above might not make sense to you. (And I haven't even begun to explain why Gollum, Farside, and Zdenek are better; all I've done is show you why Bub and Cecily AREN'T.)

This I agree with
If you're right you're failing at one of the basics of playing town - part of it is being right, and the other part is convincing others you're right. COuld you at least tear down Cecily as a wagon more effectively to convince me to get off it? I can buy Bub as a sudden spurt growth wagon I suppose (though even you are agreeing he looks bad for it) but I don't see the vague "compromise" claims that should have me fleeing for my life from Cecily at all.

Mostly I sort of feel like you'd rather I was playing a Fate meta, but I'm more pedantic than that despite what some people think.

[Thor665]

I can grok the information you are showing, but fail to translate it into actionable data.

I have been in games both currently and in the past where too many people have expressed suspicion and I was all "whoa, hey now, buckos!" and then somebody hammers and - boom, scumflip. Just because someone is suspected and talked about doesn't empirically prove much of anything as far as alignment goes (at least until a flip happens and you can look back). I will agree the slop over from Bud is telling, and is probably the reason I am slightly distrustful of that wagon insomuch as it feels like a growth spurt that was a recent event. But I note the Cecily growth in recent pages is, to my mind, a direct outgrowth of her posting and acting in a scummy manner recently and people reacting to that scumtell by either agreeing it's a scumtell or disagreeing - hence the indirects as people comment on the action.

In short, I suspect your method would tend to showcase lots of indirect defense and offense towards a player whenever they become the topic of discussion and people do the natural action of weighing in with thoughts (or being cajoled/demanded to do the same). Just because someone has indirect attention on them though doesn't clarify much alignment information to my mind - as regardless of alignment scum and town are likely to pile onto a wagon to some degree.

I expressed a potential willingness to help you lynch Zdenek (one of your scum trifecta) and get off Cecily (one of your towns in need of a white knight) Why no real excitement to make that happen?

[Thor665]

I'm here. Long weekend and even longer day of homework today. I'll try and keep up and post something useful tomorrow.

Why ruin your perfect record now?

@evilpacman - that's an awfully simplistic way to look at it, however, I'll agree that slot is no longer in the bottom half of my reads. Confirmed though? Lol - no.

@Caboose
@flinter

What's up with that Twisted wagon? I've got a town read there, what's the scum case?

@Gollum - why are you still on Acro?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Cecily
Vote: Zdenek

I reserve the right to later go rushing back to Cecily, and also reserve the right that if she later flips scum to go 'nyaah-nyaah' in Calcifer's face. That slot is still terribad, but I want to play out this wagon.

@Calcifer - I like the Nocman=town case, though I think it's sloppy to suggest that all three of the scumteam were pushing on one player. There was probably at least one of the scumteam calling him town at that time, yeah? Neutral on the Bub=town case.

[Thor665]

@Nocmen - With the current activity levels I started to think I must be playing a 12 man game and hence expected a 3 man scumteam. (and to clarify - No.)

@Ion - welcome to Vigbait is you territory, enjoy the weather, forecasts call for sporadic lead showers. Ask Cecily where the best cover is, I'm sure she visits every game. Oh, and your vote is lolfail right now, you might want to fix that.

@Calcifer - cute enough analysis of Cecily - why did you ignore my reason for voting her considering how much you defend her initial play I personally think my reason for voting her should appear significantly stronger in your eyes.

[Thor665]

I don't care how much you defended your point after this post, I don't understand what would even make you THINK about posting this. It is basically saying that you will support a lynch, even if you don't believe it? Can you explain?

Here's the explanation...he supported it *before* his vote too.
So your vote is... Because it shows you didn't read him before his vote, and that if you had read the discussion I had with him you'd certainly understand where he was coming from with this comment. So, welcome to obvious skimmer territory - also known as Vig territory, because I would like it if a Vig killed you dead.

Does my commentary make sense to you now?

[Thor665]

Oh, and your vote is still lolfail - for reasons explained above.

[Thor665]

Clacifer sez;
I see the scumteam of Gollum/farside/Zdenek
Vote: Gollum

Thor sez:
I donna see Gollum, howza bout we lynch Zdenek?

Calcifer sez:
Thor is super smart and probably more of a man than anyone here can imagine. i am certain his penis is huge.
Vote: Zdenek

...oh, and later go into more details.

Ion sez:
Lol, it's scummy that you voted Zdenek when you didn't think he was scummy.

How is this not lolfail? Because I'm looking at it, and it looks lolfail. I even put on some glasses and held my head at a quizzical slant in order to look smarter - it looked like slanted lolfail. So - please, explain your vote, probably I'm just being dumb and missing the obvious in how it's awesomewin. I await this revelation with baited breath and bosom a quiver.

[Thor665]

Game is dying the death of boredom.

People who are on weak arse wagons should change their votes around to defeat boredom and add lulz. The awesomeness that is my beard can only ward off boredom so much on its own.

@Acro - get off Ctorj or start screaming about how we should lynch him - you're being muy muy useless there.

[Thor665]

thor, i take that as "why are you lynching ctorj?"

well, to answer your question, this still deserves death, and i haven't seen anything thus far that struck me as more scummy than this.

vote: Acronach

As good a Day 1 bandwagon as we'll get for now.

I submit that doesn't deserve death at all. How about you explain exactly why it does because clearly I (and all the people not voting Ctorj) don't understand why it's such an obvious scumtell.
If you're on a wagon of one at this stage of the game it's intrinsic upon YOU to get more votes on that wagon, otherwise you are failing at voting. Do not fail at voting. So start selling or get off.

[Thor665]

@evilpacman (and Acro too)

Zdenek (5/11): flinter, pappums rat, Calcifer, Thor665, Bunnylover
Cecily (4/11): Twistedspoon, Nocmen, Pine, Furcolow
Pine (2/11): Bub Bidderskins, Cecily
Nocmen (2/11): Zdenek, farside22

Voting one of the above would take you somewhere though - no scum reads on any of them?

[Thor665]

Really not too found of Zombeh's deflection protection on pine

Ironic, considering that you (albeit indirectly) have twice defended Pine yourself.

I actually don't find that ironic at all, and an indirect defense through attacking (chainsaw at worst) is

miles

different from a deflection defense.

[Thor665]

Great, now I'm hating on the Zdenek wagon.

[Thor665]

In Wrestlemania I didn't have a string of posts more than 300-400 words. In this game I have had many huge walls that I simply do not generate as scum.

In Wrestlmania there was a universal post restriction preventing long posts though.
Oh, furc, never change.

[Thor665]

I'd like to reaffirm that I'd be really happy with a Zdenek lynch.

Ion and TS look pretty sketchy for their last minute mumblings as they still squat on dead wagons that have been dead a long time. We're lynching Zdenek or Gollum today - didn't you guys get that memo like two days ago?

[Thor665]

Hell, actually I'm slightly pro the Gollum lynch just for how he sidelined to Bub.
I'll be around and available to help with either lynch, but certain lackwits need to get their votes in play for something to happen here.

[Thor665]

^Still a more useful player than most of you due to location of vote.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Zdenek
Vote: Gollum

Pine, why are you not onto this one?

[Thor665]

@Caboose - and for future record, just let your partner play his game. You actually didn't need to claim just then, only he did.

[Thor665]

@Calcifer - as long as you're hre; what were all the awesome reads we'd get if Zdenek flipped town? Because he just flipped town.

[Thor665]

I don't lynch Vigs on Day 1. They're either verifiable or real Vigs kill them dead.

Unvote: Gollum
Vote: Cecily

Thor, that was the best move for the zdenek considering the fact many times claims are simply disbelieved or speed hammered.

That predicates stupid town, and also *if* people didn't believe him than the partner could step in. I don't consider that optimal play.

Since you seem opposed to Bub, how about the MrTrow slot?

papum/Trow = scum because papum voted Caboose (was Caboose looking obv. town at the time of the vote? It's not scummy to vote someone who is revealed to be town - unless the entire Zdenek wagon is scum).
Could you quote his Calcifer lynch/kidding thing? I don't recall that.

[Thor665]

So, Do you consider MrTrow/pappums a good lynch, or not?

Define good.
If it was up to me who was lynched right this second he wouldn't be first choice. Honestly he probably wouldn't be in my top five, but my top five is pretty pathetically full of lurkers right now. I do want you to explain that Calc thing though, as it's the only part of your case that really sounds like a scumtell to me.

[Thor665]

Ugh, so Mastin is making a vow to be anti-town, nice
I will add, Calc old buddy, you still didn't get us any info on what we learned now that Zdenek flipped town - I am really not happy about that and we're certainly not sheeping you onto farside, so get over your bad self with that one. If, on the off chance you bother to generate the Zdenek one i wouldn't mind seeing what you'd think we'd learn with a Gollum scum/town flip too. There's a chance he doesn't see tomorrow, y'know.

@Gollum wagon - would you like to hazard a guess why all the experienced players are getting off the Gollum wagon and all the newbies are championing it? Do you think maybe we know something you don't? Let me break it down for you;

1. Gollum is not the Vig - he has to manage a secondary kill, somehow, and he'll have to claim responsibility for it tomorrow.
2. He runs the risk of a tracker watching him.
3. He runs the need to explain why scum didn't kill him.
4. He runs a risk there's a real Vig out there who'll be like "oh, *you're* the Vig, huh?" ::loads gun and grins::

So, there are a reasonable pile of situations which dick with him if he's not the Vig.
We discuss this situation tomorrow - not today. Gollum isn't being lynched today.

@farside - Bub case in a sentence or two? Also, you have a town read on Cecily? I'd like to lynch Ceceily - why are you harshing my mellow?

[Thor665]

I don't get the positive side of lynching a claimed vig. Either we find out by the shots at night that something is wrong, or we have an extra town shot. For that reason I really dislike Pine and Cecily, but mostly pine who is really pushy about it. I would be up for a wagon on either. I could follow Calcifer on the Farside wagon, and if anyone is still up for a lynch on T-spoon (though I think not), I wouldn't mind that either.

"Hey guys, I'm literally open to lynching anybody! C'mon, somebody make a half decent case I can glomph on to!"

Also, this doesn't look much like a post that should have ended with a 'Vote: Farside'

[Thor665]

I prefer Bub to Cecily because of the possibility that the Cecily wagon formed partly to protect Bub.

That's funny because I see it the other way around.

Considering the way Celcily reacted to Gollum's claim I'd love to see her dead before we go to night.

Calc is town even if Mastin is a bit too full of his own reads (and, for the record, I'm still horrified that he is apparently planning to do this 42 cases thing)

I'm neutral on Noc, he feels compromise-ish to me. I'd vote him, but I don't feel happy voting him, and as a result I don't think he should be voted for.

How do people feel about a Magister Ludi lynch? He's gut for me but I could be happy with that lynch - moreso than Bub or Noc, most assuredly. Also, the way he was interacting with me as regards pappum and then his sudden push for Bub as though he has actually been a Bub lynch supporter really feels off.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Cecily
Vote: Magister Ludi

If nothing else - reactions to the EXTREME!

[Thor665]

Vote: Bub. Way too wishy-washy and I dont like the way many of his posts seem to be either 1-2 lines, or him hopping on the zd/gollum wagon. Honestly, his posts and votes seem way too similar to Cecily. But some of these posts just don't seem in place, as opposed to cecily just lacking post content.

I don't think so. I get Cec's point more clearly then Bud's. At least i know why Cec's reason's.
Brings up past game experience is a plus and showing clearly what she(?) finds scummy is better then BW with no reason.

I want to look at these side by side. I'm pretty sure somebody is wrong.

How come more people aren't voting Ludi yet? Do I actually have to respond to his little wall rant to convince you? How about people look back at his "constant" pressure on Bub, how he initially responded to pressure from me, and than his most recent response to pressure from me. I really don't think I'm seeing things here.

[Thor665]

For the record, I'll be doing a viewpoint of Thor potentially being scum, just to be on the safe-side, even though I think he's town. It's still theoretically possible he's scum. (In fact, I have a "Wild Mass Guessing" about him and Cecily BOTH being scum in the Cecily-scum case.)

P.S. This is even more reason to have helped me lynch Cecily, ask Nacho about my bussing tendencies.

Considering how big these writeups are is it possible to maybe just put them up as Google docs or something? You're honestly intimidating the snot out of me at the sound of these things and they sound super unwieldy and not likely to be utilized by any but the most masochistic of town. I'd frankly rather get just a sentence or two for each case and a summation and then you can go into detail if people request it. Plus there'd be less of "everybody hold your breath till Mastin wallposts" like what we're getting here.

[Thor665]

@Caboose - Pine was nuzzling up to me earlier too, but I'll admit I tend to slightly ease back from the buddying call because it's been so consistent and blatant to multiple players. I think you're spotting newb decisions and automatically concluding they're newb scum, which though it might be correct, it's not as sure of a thing as I suspect you feel it is.

[Thor665]

@Caboose - Dude, that is awesome buddying - it made me love him for seeing how awesome I am.
But, really, people have been buddying me a fair amount this game - hell, I could call Calc out for buddying me, doesn't make him scum. Newb town get super excited and buddy up to players they feel are town and they can follow. Newb scum do it too in a desperate attempt to avoid lynching. How do you define the difference here? Because I don't see it.

Could you vote for Ludi? I'll buddy you if you do.

[Thor665]

Thor, people aren't voting because your reason and logic is fallous.

I had to look that one up because me am not know language.
The mist I got was Google trying to tell me you meant phallus which I really hope you weren't.
I'll guess you mean fallacious - which it isn't.

Besides, I'm just a friendly and jestful fellow, right, can't possibly be onto anything, right? Just be quiet, this will all be over soon enough.

[Thor665]

Why should I vote for Ludi?

Fine, let's do more of a case (for the record, I'm the *opposite* of Mastin, I don't take some sort of sick pleasure in spending eight hours to write out why Cecily might be scum (especially when he apparently doesn't even agree with the proposition )

Okay, so let's open up with His case on Bub Remember, according to ML;

I have been pushing for Bub since my

THIRD

post, have been consistent, laid out reasons, and asked you to look at them, I do not see anything as a 'sudden push'. I have outlined my reasons multiple times.

Please, go look at his iso. He mentions Bub maybe about 3-4 times, usually very weakly. He got onto the Bub wagon at the time that wagon got the most attention and added nothing to the case other than sort of vaguely pointing out that Bub was lurkish. Than he approaches me with this pappum's issue (and, seriously, go look how *often* in his iso he brings up Pappum/Trow - it's not often and is again sorta lurker oriented). He asks me to back up the case. I say his case doesn't look like scumtells except for one thing (I also ask him to quote it to me, he never does - he'll later act like me not following up on one of *his* big scumreads is somehow a scumtell, but whatevs). He's presenting himself as the huge and solid scumhunter when he's actually pretending that he's pressing attacks that he isn't, and really has an iso that just reads like a wall of coasting.

Another big tell for me is his first reaction to Thor pressure. He's cool, he's calm, he's collected. The second time out I hit him with basically a gut case and not liking how he's maneuvering and suddenly he's blowing up and I'm a huge scumread whose been avoiding talking about these "obvious" wagons which ML has been "pressing" for. It frankly looks like scum who got freaked that I had something and totally flipped the fug out. He's walling up a storm and suddenly I'm public enemy number three right behind a guy he was asking my help to lynch a few hours earlier? He was either faking when he was calm or he's faking now, but he's clearly got a hair trigger and I suspect it's a scum guilt motivated hair trigger considering the ridiculous wall of non-tells he's hurling at me in an attempt to batter down my gut case.

Go, look at his iso, and ask yourself if he's been "pressing" Bub all this time to the point where he deserves to come in with a "why isn't Bub lynched yet" commentary?
Go and look at his two recent responses to my gut case and look back at his too cool for school initial response to RVS pressure. Those are really practically identical on the pressure scale, but suddenly he twigs out?
Look at when he mentioned Cecily was town and so was everyone on her wagon (which must include me, because I'm pretty sure Cecily case and Thor go hand in hand here) then go look at how he approached me about pappums...and then look how suddenly it's a scum team of Thor/pappums. That is OMGUS at its finest, and also a guy who actually doesn't have solid reads other than the ones he's faking.

[Thor665]

Listen to this as well Thor.

1. I asked you to look at pappums, because of several actions that were questionable, at best.

2. Your last post

dismisses

my push on the rat, essentially boiling it down to because Magister is SCUM because of GUT, pappums is

TOWN

3. Calcifer, one post prior established that if we assume Gollum is town, based on a vig claim, we can then assume pappums is scum. (Others may or may not agree with this statement.)

4. You then say Calcifer is

TOWN

, even though he just pushed on the

EXACT SAME

person I did, for similar thought processes.

5. This shows your reads and pushes aren't

CONDITIONAL

on this game, but on a weak basis, as you use the SAME criteria to judge two different people

DIFFERENTLY.

6. The purpose of this inconsistency comes from...

scum

.

Bub, Pappums of Thor are now the best lynches.

Also, as long as I'm bothering to do cases - let's shoot this in the face for lulz;

1. Yeah, I agree this happened.

2. Actually...no, my dismissal of the papum's case had nothing to do with you being scummy, it had everything to do with you not actually showcasing him doing anything scummy.

3. Ah, so your pappum's case was predicated on Calcifer's case? Why didn't you just say so? (hint - methinks this is trying to sponge off town points to make himself look better)

4. Calcifer being town in my eyes has

literally

nothing to do with whether or not I agree with his pappum case.

5. If I had said you were scum for pushing pappum (which even you didn't say I did) and if I'd then also said Calcifer was scum for pushing pappum you might actually have been on to something here.

6. Yes, your case is like a finely honed steel trap, and I am helpless within it.

...this was actually a lot less of a case than I thought it was. Your other post basically calls me scum for not following up on a question I asked you to follow up on about a player you suspected and wanted my support on to lynch. (yeah, *that's* a scumtell. Oooh, and gut, apparently it's scummy to mention gut. I'll have to remember that.

I'm comfortable with my logic and vote, how are things between your ears?

[Thor665]

How come? The Cecily wagon formed after the Bub wagon.

Twistedspoon, Thor665, Nocmen, Pine, Furcolow
^^^
Who are the scum there opposing the lynch of their buddy Bub?

I think Calcifer's case on Cecily is reasoable.

...hate you.

[Thor665]

@Zdenek Actually, I was just hating on you for liking Calc's case on Cecily and not Thor's case on Cecily (which Calc totally ripped off until he divebombed into meaningless paranoia.)

In any case, if you like "Calc's" case let's ignore the reasonable stuff and focus on this part;

"Wild Mass Guessing: Ludi, Thor, and Cecily are all scum, with Thor bussing both of 'em." So...what I'm hearing there is 'let's lynch Cecily or Ludi - and I'm totally down for that plan.

I might buy into a Bub/Noc buddyship, though I wish Noc had posted between the collapse of your wagon and the collapse of the Gollum wagon to make me feel more sure of it. He's got a couple soft chainsaws so the connection is possible, but I don't look at that Bub wagon and become overwhelmed by the townishness of it.

How about you sheep your buddy and vote Cecily, I'd be happy with that lynch and than Calc can get freaked about how I hopped off Ludi suddenly.

[Thor665]

Why not FoS me, Ctorj? I'm voting for a claimed hider (iirc)

Because as scummy as this gets is sidelining your vote - what's your issue with the big wagons and what's the advantage of the evilpacman wagon?

[Thor665]

^^^Not this.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Magister Ludi
Vote: Cecily

I'll say it again, if Gollum is lying he's already dead scum if there's a Vig or scum with a giant target on him tomorrow if there isn't. Though I appreciate that there are players who are flapping around wearing tinfoil hats I really think town can do better with getting an actual lynch and we'll probably have the Gollum thing sorted out soon enough anyway. Besides, I'd super love to see a Cecily flip prior to really seeing the Gollum question dealt with.

[Thor665]

They come tumbling in from the rafters for Cecily.
Not so much for Magister Ludi.

Who has a town read on that guy and isn't telling me?

@Gollum - if Cecily flips scum you better not shoot Acro.

[Thor665]

<3 Pac.

Ludi. So, no worries with the Vig targeting Gollum, eh? MmmHmm.

[Thor665]

Ah, of course, I forgot how verified that was.

Who had that town read on Ludi? Anyone, seriously?

[Thor665]

I am not voting for Cecily, for the record. Will re-read the cases on Gollum though.

<- more for the Gollum thing than the Cecily thing, I mean i feel sorta about Cecily, but the 'wtf?' face is definitely about your desire/need to flippin' re-read the Gollum case.

@Everyone - Don't we have less than 24 hours here currently, people? Seems like I'd like to see a lot more hustle than I'm seeing.

[Thor665]

DEADLINE WILL HIT 24 HOURS FROM THIS POST

.

Sooo, around 5 and a half hours, yeah?

[Thor665]

oh noes
UNVOTE: Gollum

Gosh, thank you, this helps secure a lynch.

[Thor665]

@farside - I'm pretty sure he's saying that lack of majority = no lynch.
The rules include that majority = lynch, there is nothing in the rules suggesting a 'most votes' lynch rule exists.

[Thor665]

when there is more time I will go more in depth about who the worst at that are.

1 hour and 26 min.

Y'know, as cute as I find your lurking to be...

[Thor665]

Tick-tock, tick-tock.

[Thor665]

My question is whether pacman was hiding behind one of these guys or if he was specifically targeted.

He...was a hider...

If it's SK and Mafia, then Gollum lied about being a vig, as vigs/SKs in the same setup is pretty redundant; it's common Mod Meta to have one or the other, but not both. Therefore, Gollum's scum.

That's Tasky specific meta?

I am really quite inebriated still and skimmed like nobody's business.
Let's play the two wagon game.

Vote: Bub Bidderskins

At the moment that bit of 'hinting' at his target works for me.

@Gollum - declare target, now. You're still a high priority to my mind, and a target claim will be pro-town and you might as well at least fake it as long as you're suggesting you'd get a RB PM.

[Thor665]

Gods, I had to double check because [redacted] we just had a no lynch happen through strange magic. This was the no lynch through wtf.
Eh, Calc is town unless Cecily is scum - I'll still want to lynch the hell out of Cecily too though
The failure for scum to manage to muddle that one through is telling to my mind.

[Thor665]

farside22, Twistedspoon, Ctorj49, Duplicity

Players of interest based on Gollum's flip. If Gollum is scum I bet TS, Ctorj, and Duplicity are not (barring secondary scum team, natch).

[Thor665]

@Calc - we have multiple anti-town kills, it's always possible that the scum are just trying to get alternate scum dead. I know the name "doesn't matter at all" but, c'mon.

[Thor665]

I will admit Gollum,and ML all being up on this wagon is less awesometacular than I'd like. That said, their positioning is potentially telling as to them being mutually aligned scum.

@Calcifer - how'd you go from 'Cecily isn't a bad lynch' to 'No lynch is preferable to a Cecily lynch' yesterday?

@Ion - your read on the two wagons thus far.

[Thor665]

Mod - V/LA - May 19-22

[Thor665]

How do you feel about the likelihood of multiple scum units in this game affecting both of the startup wagons?
The only other explanation I have for both masons croaking is if scum had some sort of additional kill power and could coordinate it somehow.
Pairing that with Gollum makes sense as it could justify his lack of attitude and lack of claim outright as to his target and also how he'd make such a risky claim for survival.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

This'll be fun.

Lynch all liars.

I do not want you posting 84 cases in thread, if you attempt to do so I will attempt to get you lynched for being anti-town and ridiculous. Feel free to do 84 cases, if that will actually help you - but I will refuse to read anything but a brief summation, and frankly I might skip that, as on Day 2 most of those cases are going to be so gak that they'll probably just mess with my head.

@Bub - so you're town and the whole Bib thing is just a gross misunderstanding. Do you submit that the two scum teams just sort of luckily managed to each target a separate mason? What do you think about Calc's deduction on how 'Bib' was breadcrumbing you?

[Thor665]

His three posibilities for hider are complete nonsence, and then declares the wagon forming on him 'uber-scummy', with no back up.

I do not find all three of his possibilities nonsense. Why is it "nonsense" for him to think that Caboose or Zdenek would have been who evilp hid behind?

Thor, Mastin, does it really make sense to think up connections based on two teams today when we have no idea if that is even a reality. It could be, but it could also not be.

We had two masons who were not lovers die - that needs consideration. I'll agree 'it could not be' is as viable an answer as 'could be' at this stage. I do not see why 'let's not talk about this' is a preferable strategy though. Let me know why we shouldn't talk about it and I'll bow to your wishes, otherwise just keep frothing about Bub, if he flips scum maybe it will make me feel better about you if we settle that there's only one scum team.

[Thor665]

You still haven't claimed your target, wtf?

[Thor665]

@Pine - please stop being mental. There was no contradiction, and if we think farside is lying, how about we lynch Gollum first anyway and if he flips town than we'll know farside was lying, derpy, derp, derp.

Unvote: Bub
Vote: Gollum

[Thor665]

@farside - I doubt you're feeling it, but...ah...don't claim for Pine.

[Thor665]

Did I miss the part where we decided to massclaim? Because I'm pretty sure I missed that part.

@Pine - just because a Tracker exists does not preclude the existence of a Watcher. Probably you could have just waited till tomorrow for this whole gambit and been better off (for the record I actually feel the same way about farside - it was pretty clear Gollum was for the axe today, meh). Quite frankly, considering the name of the game is MIRROR and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME I would tend to be cautious with this sort of gambit until we learn a little bit more about what the mod is actually doing to gak with us. Yeah, maybe it's mirror scum teams, maybe it's mirror town PRs, maybe it's even a set of scum PRs that mirror the town PRs - we don't know. Let's lynch Gollum, if Gollum is scum than, in my opinion, farside gets a pass for a little while regardless of if the two of you have identical roles. This doesn't seem to be a journey that ends in happy win-time at this stage.

[Thor665]

That was hammer by my count, so...bleh.
Thanks for not killing Cecily, Calc

Unvote: Gollum

in case I'm an idiot.

[Thor665]

If Gollum wasn't hammered let's not hammer just yet, I know you all desperately want town points for being in on a scum lynch but it wouldn't have hurt to give Calc the extra few days. no, not so we could read some more Calc walls (and, I know I wouldn't have read them) but rather because we did have a couple of players who didn't even check in today and it might have been fun to watch them at work.

Protective roles - please don't be goofy like last night and not protect town masons - maybe you could protect a claimed town PR? That would be awesome.

Calc - could we get a little more Nacho posting and a lot less wallposting? Walls are fine...but you don't actually draw solid conclusions after your walls which makes me wonder why you think anyone should read them. The walls you're posting are walls for *your* reference. Make and use them, sure, but don't post them for giggles.

Bub wagon should be looked at in reference to Gollum's flip and also who did any shift once the Bub wagon started popping and people left Gollum wagon.

[Thor665]

Thor, why unvote after you counted a lynch?

Because I might have gakked up - duh, I specifically said as much. What don't you understand?

[Thor665]

@Cecily - your read on Bub prior to farside's claim?

@ML - No, you actually got me about right. I did want him dead, and I did want more caution than was done with his lynch. The only misconception is that I 100% trusted my count.

[Thor665]

2 Town Hiders, 2 Masons. Good to know information there methinks. Because, hur hur, the name means *nothing*.

If pappum breadcrumbed I think he breadcrumbed Pine or farside, though I don't think he breadcrumbed. Considering how farside flipped and that we have two scum teams and Pine's claim.

Vote: Pine

[Thor665]

Twisted is diving for the rolefishing right off the bat, isn't he? Needless to say I ain't claiming jack all - though I will confirm Pine does possess targeting information that fully supports the tracker half of his role claim (and, duh - who would make that targeting up?).

@Calc - yeah, yeah, gold stars to you too - I'll be interested to see your popping open of the game. I'm pretty strongly sold on Pinescum though, makes a lot of sense with the mirroring to my mind.

[Thor665]

So...why were you visiting two confirmed Town, and how did you visit yourself, Thor?

What part of 'not claiming' are you missing here? Convince an odd eight or so people I'm scum and than you can ask me these questions again, until then...not so much.

[Thor665]

Outstanding. Calcifer is 100% confirmed Town.

@Mod - theoretically in a game you designed, would a Hider die if he hid behind a role that was investigation immune? e.g. A Godfather.

I've seen this one go both ways. I'm curious.
Still feeling Pine scum though.

[Thor665]

So... I'm confirmed town?

This.

^Nacho's going to pretty much own the scumteams, now.

Hopefully this.

Pine can stop looking scummy for that particular aspect. I'm sticking by my mirror tell, quite frankly though. We need some more activity on the current wagons and I need to force myself into the unenviable re-read of a few isos.

[Thor665]

ITT people ignore mirrors.

Also, Ion comes pretty close to actually giving an opinion.

[Thor665]

Mod - correction V/LA - actual dates are May 12-15, I suck - my bad

[Thor665]

@Everyone and their mothers - seriously, nobody even has the grapefruits to so much as comment on my Pine vote? The hell?

[Thor665]

The way in which they voted wasn't scummy. The way in which you and Pine voted was.

I can see some Pine issues here, why Duplicity first?

[Thor665]

VOTE: Thor

I'm still very interested in my tracking results, and your complete reticence to enlighten us concerns me.

You know, at least I was willing to call you scum. You're voting me because I'm not full claiming right away (and I think you're scum)? Yeah, keep selling.

[Thor665]

Refusal to role claim =/= unwillingness to engage in discussion.
Anti-town, anti-town, anti-town. Yeah, that will make me feel pressured by your attack. Someone seems uncertain about calling me scum for a reason methinks.

EBWOP - @Calc - but is Pine being lynched, that's the actual discussion at hand. Haylen's actually gained some mud thanks to flippin' Ludi of all people with a good catch in his last post, but you're still not weighing in on much of anything yet. Wuss slap Nacho/Mastin and get back into gear.

[Thor665]

Mod - correction V/LA - actual dates are May 12-15, I suck - my bad

*cough*

@mod - *total* mockage

I'll read up on this game and post though, because I love you all. I'm guessing we haven't lynched Pine yet, why is that?

[Thor665]

Just tell me if this is your reasoning: farside is a mafia watcher. Pine is a tracker. These roles are almost the same, and seen that there were two hiders, these two must both be scum.

If so, I won't be voting Pine.


I will continue voting ludi though. Right after I made a case on him, and Bub picks up on it, Ludi comes with a large analysing post without real deduction, where he also hints on not voting Bub anymore (a key point in the case against him). Scum won't get anymore obvious then this.

You pegged the heart of the case pretty solidly, though I'll add a heaping helping of 'gut' a dash of whatever the case was on him yesterday, and sprinkle on a touch of 'look at how totally freaked out he is that I triple targeted last night and is foaming for a full claim."

That said, I actually like the Ludi wagon, so it's not like I'm totally against you, I just feel more certain about Pine than Ludi at this stage.

I don't see Town reasons to obfuscate what's going on with him, Nocmen. There are some power roles for whom it is critical to remain hidden, like Doctors. However, he is conclusively not one of those roles. If he has information and has been partially outed, then who or what is he saving that information for? The more reticent he is, the more he becomes stonewalling scum.

At least I'm possibly scum now. There's another reason I might not be telling anything, here's a few quick thoughts.

1. Nothing solid to report yet.
2. WIFOM soup for scum.
3. I know my role and do not believe it is pro-town to full claim until either I am actually under pressure of lynch and/or multiple players are calling for a claim.
4. Did I mention how the scum are probably running around and wetting their little nappies over a triple targeting town PR that they don't know jack about? Yeah, maybe I'm something totally useless...or maybe I'm awesome. Why do you want scum to know this?

Oh, wait, right, you're scum, so....

that being said, It certainly doesn't excuse sir Pine. His claim would have been easy enough to fake anyways as scum

The only way he could be faking was if I was his scumbuddy, unless you think he luckily "faked" guessing correctly that I triple targeted last night.

[Thor665]

Bleh - you presume an awful lot for the Ctorj as scum based on the neighbor evidence, even if I'm scum. And since I'm not that makes even less sense barring actual supportive data independant of my alignment.

I think you're right about Pine and wrong about the entire Red team.

[Thor665]

@Calc - so, wait, you're predicting Bub and I killed Cecily? So either I'm scum who can use his neighbor power *and* the NK at the same time, or I told Bub to kill someone I also intended to neighbor? Derpy-doo-dah to you too.

[Thor665]

You would be my top buddy pick.

[Thor665]

ITT Ludi proves he's talking a lot and not reading anything. I'm pretty sure I was the first and clearest in assigning color to Pinescum - seriously.
I suck at team associations, I'd probably lynch TS first looking for reds.
I'm sorry I upset you by complimenting you for doing something that looked like scumhunting while still believing you are scum. You still acted weird around the Gollum lynch, don't act like I should forget that.

[Thor665]

No, I am reading. You have never expressely stated which color you think pine is, or why this make sense.

Hello?
::knocks on Ludi's head and hears a dull thumping sound::
Oh...okay, I'll leave a message.

I called Pine scum for a "mirror tell" and consequently I'm suggesting that the scum teams are mirrored just as town is. Now, if the one flipped scum tracking role is red than probably...I have never indicated what scum team I think pine is.
Yeah.

[Thor665]

My face is in my palm.

[Thor665]

2. Thor the case that one scum-pr flipped therefore Pine is scum is awful, it really is.

I'll concede it's outguessing, but combine it with double Hiders and a mason pair, and how I intrinsically create "mirrors" and I feel pretty solidly on it.

[Thor665]

That would be Ludi. Plus whatever I said Day 1-2 (which was mostly Ludi)
Basically all my town reads are non setup based as well.

If we want to ding reads, I'd note that your lynch preferences are basically two lurkers and Bub. Frankly i think Bub is mislynch bait due to his playstyle, and though I might buy a lurker lynch on just random probability it seems pretty 'meh' to me. I'm amazed you're putting Pine as obv. town. What did I miss? You are aware there are two scum teams, yes?

[Thor665]

1. Mmmm
2A. farside did it though, so clearly scum would do this. Why is it good for the goose but not the gander?
2B. All you really show here is that he's probably not scumbuddies with me.
3A. I have explicitly stated that I believe this as well as implied.
3B. And yet you list Bub as scum, and even Pine credits Bub for catching Gollum's slip. I personally see that as scum realizing his partner is busted, not as town brilliantly hunting scum.

[Thor665]

Like, really? The green part. Thor has been quite active throughout the game, he doesn’t seem to be the player to forget his night action. Do you

know

this, or were you told by Thor?

I told him this.
Ctorj also confirmed my targets - so now you can either believe it was randomized or that I specifically chose to neighbor those two players for some purpose.

Moreover, in his later posts, he doesn't say anymore that Pine is the black mirror to Farside, so I'm wondering what his basis actually is.

I am honestly starting to become freaking annoyed at this, I'm going to say it again.
I HAVE BEEN CALLING PINE SCUM BECAUSE OF BELIEF THAT BOTH SCUM TEAMS HAVE A TRACKER TYPE ROLE - SO **OBVIO-FRICKIN'-LUTELY** I'VE BEEN CALLING HIM BLACK SCUM THIS ENTIRE TIME BECAUSE MY ENTIRE CASE IS PREDICATED ON HIM BEING THE BLACK OPPOSITE TO RED SCUM FARSIDE

Sweet mother of mercy, do I honestly need to say - "Hey guys, let's lynch Pine (he's Black scum by the way) because I think he scum (Black) due to my setup speculation (which indicates his color is black)." everytime I talk about him? Because I can do that. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to discuss scumtells towards Pine that don't involve the mirror aspect tell I'm pushing, so I shouldn't need to bring up farside every time I discuss Pine.

@Pine (who is black scum0 yes, my case is predicated on belief you are scum (Black) I don't know why this is odd. All scum cases (black and red for that matter) tend to be predicated on a belief that someone is scum (and in your case - I believe it to be black scum). So...yes...I believe you are scum (black).

@Duplicity - I do not believe farside's (red) play was intrinsically bad. If you believe that than I suppose I can accept you're less clear on my belief of Pinescum (black scum, at that). I would submit his "hesitation" was because he was playing up his counter track/watch claim against farside (who was red scum, which supports my belief that Pine is black scum, fyi).

[Thor665]

I can't even tell if I'm crazy or if everyone else is. If these people are town I am seriously peeved about my role PM. Let's please lynch Pine.


EBWOP - Yes, very much so.

[Thor665]

@TS - I make neighbors. I get to do it a lot. I did not wish to claim it because there was no town benefit to claiming it and there was scum benefit.

[Thor665]

@Pine - Yeah, Calc confirming my role when I didn't want my role confirmed *totally* makes me look like a double speaking lie face scummer...whut?
@TS - ::facepalm:: Nightly. Depends on your personal opinion of how useful neighborhoods are. Because it helps scum to know the actual threat viability of a PR.

[Thor665]

Obviously, Neighborizer as your role is confirmed. But your actions and how you refused to reveal when you

clearly

had no reason to avoid a claim makes you a scum neighborizer.

I have stated why I avoided the claim, it's for the same reason I think you were scummy because you clamored for it like it was a magical hidden bauble that just *had* to be known for the town. It isn't, it wasn't, and you look scummy for that, not me.

[Thor665]

You claimed because you desperately need town to protect you from the other scum team.
You also claimed prior to ever tracking me.

[Thor665]

Your tracking results of me were not suspicious - since you weren't even willing to call me scummy or even anti-town until I didn't claim right away.

[Thor665]

You'll one day explain how me not claiming a "reasonable explanation" is scummy, yeah? Because scum with reasonable explanations never use them...ever, amirite? (attention everyone, this is sarcasm. Also, Pine is black scum - I don't know if I mentioned that recently so I might be accused of dropping the subject).

[Thor665]

@Pine ...yeah, repetition, how shameful of me. Feel free to explain how you think my claim is reasonable and that it's scummy I didn't want to use it. I still want to hear that.

Haylen (1/8): Magister Ludi
Duplicity (1/8): Haylen
Furcolow (1/8): Nocmen
Bunnylover (1/8): Duplicity
Ctorj49 (1/8): Twistedspoon

All of these players are doing it wrong.

@Nocmen - seriously, furcolow? Please get into the current gamestate.
@Twisted - even if I'm right about you than you should be excited to lynch Pine (black scum) since I suspect you're red. No one is on that Ctorj wagon and you haven't even mentioned him lately so...whazzup?
@Duplicity - didn't you list Bud as a top suspect? I don't think he'll flip scum but at least there's some traction there. Stop sidelining your vote please, you're posting a lot of "let's talk over these cases" posts while generating very little forward worth for your case.

Not Voting (3): Bunnylover, Ion67, Ctorj49

All of these players just sort of fail. You should all either pick a wagon or at least sheep the guy who is basically confirmed town so at least you're doing some good around here.

[Thor665]

@Pine - this isn't complicated.

If I was a scum neighborizer and had full claimed to the confirmed town in my QT with him why would I not claim in thread?

And I OMGUSed you?

[Thor665]

If I were to vote right now, I would agree with Pine. His case seems legit.

Why are you not voting right now?
You certainly don't seem to be at a loss of evidence or I would expect you to be posting questions.
Is it really just confusion about what my role is that's holding you back from voting me? Yes - I make QTs. There, now you can vote for me.

[Thor665]

I went teenage girl about three pages ago when I had to explain the same thing to three different people.
Any reason you're still not putting a vote out or scumhunting?

[Thor665]

I appreciate blatant buddying as much as the next guy, go ahead and vote Pine, please.

[Thor665]

Until further notice just presume my palm and face are spending a lot of time together.

[Thor665]

@Duplicity

2. None...you're the one who indicated it was a town tell though and asked me how I interpreted it.

1. And you're not because...? There are others willing to vote him, certainly more than your current wagon of choice.
2. And have done with them?
3. So you're just in a holding pattern on scumhunting till Calc shows up? Seems weak. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

@ Duplicity

2. ...ah...I don't find him scummy for his process of claiming. Actually, the closest anyone has come to that sort of accusation is Pine calling me scummy for how I claimed (or rather, didn't). The original question was you saying that the way he looked awkward around Gollum/farside was a towntell and I said I thought it was an equally likely scumtell. I have no idea what point you think you are making right now - could you restate?

1. Meh, he has more support than Ctorj, and it's not like you're really pushing that one either.
2. You claim you've gained information with all these questions - what have you done with this information? I am missing it.
3. You should vote Pine then, that would help reinvigorate stuff.

[Thor665]

If Pine is scum and Calc and I are on the opposing scum team, than Pine for some reason lied about evilpac's night target in order to confirm Calc as town...bwuh? The only way Calc is scum is if he's partners with Pine.

I think Bub is town and also lean town on Flinter. I would expect Flinter to be more likely scum of the two. Since we already established that Calc can't be scum without Pine, and considering how Pine would be black (black) and how Calc basically started up the Gollum thing I tend not to see him as buddies with Ludi. I might be buddies with Ludi, I'm certainly bussarific enough in my playstyle, but I frankly think I've been after him enough it would be odd if I was.

[Thor665]

Thor is going to neighborize himself, Ctorj, and Ion. And if the neighbor isn't formed, then he is instantly lynched the next day.

I'm scum because I forgot a night action...but obviously specifically chose to neighborize pappum and Ctorj? Yeah, whatevs.

In any case, this is understood and I'm fine with it and even like the angle you're going for.

Meanwhile, please feel free to explain why I chose to neighborize Cecily and asked my scumbuddy to kill her. Yeah...

[Thor665]

"Whatevs."? That's all you've got, Thor?
And you wouldn't forget a night action AS TOWN.

This is such a sad little tell. You're basically claiming I'd play better if I was town, but because I'm not playing so well I have to be scum? Really?

You didn't. You neighborized us, and killed Cecily. Now, if you successfully neighborize all three of the people I asked you to, you're the paragon of townieness again.

Do you think Pine is my partner derp-head? Because he, y'know, *tracked* me to Cecily.
Read the thread.

@Ludi - So you're saying that if Haylen was scum she would post in a way that clearly showed she wasn't reading the thread?

[Thor665]

PE: It's entirely likely that Thor can only neighborize two people at once, and that I tracked him killing Cecily in addition to his neighborization.

Since when do scum get to kill *and* use their power?
Also, seriously, scumThor multi-power activator killed the massive threat that was Cecily? I wish I had scum like me in all my games then.

[Thor665]

@Calc - I am the mirror. Two neighbors with optional me. I also wager I don't have a duplicate role out there, which if you're looking at the same setup I'm looking at says something.

[Thor665]

@Calc - you start debating how my role works in a mirror game by not being mirrored enough and I explain it and it's a loooong stretch? Uh huh, and why isn't anyone else noting existence of other neighborhoods yet? Uh huh. Maybe I am the special middle man of the setup, yeah? Derpy-doo. Plus, if you buy into me enough on the Pine mirroring yet have no question whatsoever why nobody else has admitted being in a neighborhood I didn't create?

Let's wait till tomorrow and you can eat some crow on this one. I'll only gloat a bit.

[Thor665]

THORRRR

....Caaaaaaalc?
I responded to that already, so...I guess you're just saying it still applies? Fine, see you tomorrow and we'll talk again.

If you reread Thor, his first day he is quite busy trying to be town. He is actively calling all kinds of people scum and acts very aggressively to their posts, asking them for clarification etc. In itself, this isn't scummy, though if you reread it, it is unnatural. But then we get day 2, and Thor tunnels hardcore on Pine... based on setup speculation? That isn't close to a normal townie anymore.

I'm calling people scum, questioning posts, asking for clarification, and you say this is "unnatural" to me or to the game of Mafia?

On Day 2 I tunnel off of information I didn't have before. Yes.


I agree with the evidence of your case, I'm not sure where any of your conclusions come from though. How about we lynch Pine and we can consider me for mislynch tomorrow?

[Thor665]

Remember the face palm comment - totally still in effect here.

@Calc - uncool, I'm verifiable to have not done this magical multi action NK I'm supposed to have done. Pine is scum and needs death.

[Thor665]

Also, before going into night you should explain the Ctorj case. I don't get it, nobody else seems to get it, and though the likelihood of any of the rest of them going back and reading it is slim - it's better than leaving it as 'told ya so'.

[Thor665]

If I target three people tonight, derpy-doo.

[Thor665]

It does mean jack because apparently the extent of Calc's case on me is that I can't triple target. Anyone sheeping your case on me I don't really care about.

And if scum want to kill Ion or Ctorj to get a mislynch on me, I think that's actually beneficial to town, frankly.

[Thor665]

And then you can lynch me and...what's the downside here? Oh, wait, right, you're actually scared I can do it and become confirmed town. Continue.

[Thor665]

The "big problem" of not roleclaiming immediately while still confirming the targets you tracked me to as who I did target? Yeah, keep selling buddy.

[Thor665]

@flinter - how is my play Day 2 different than Day 1?

People voting Ctorj while supporting me triple targeting for confirmation really lends credence to the reading problems here. I wish to heck I was a part of one of the scumteam in this game.

[Thor665]

Actually, it's just because Ctorj was one of the planned targets and is a good one because he's scummy and a lurker (y'know, like my scumbuddies)

Tell you what, if either Ion or Ctorj is lynched, I'll neighbor Pine. That should be good for a laugh.

[Thor665]

Because we haven't lynched him, he hasn't been NKed, and you haven't made the wagon go anywhere.

[Thor665]

This does not shock me much. Both scum teams are frothing for this one - my personal call is still everyone needs to lynch Pine. Second off is honestly Duplicity. He had an unusual arc to this where he was defending me somewhat and then was suddenly voting me - his desire to vote me showed up after I had clarified how I could confirm myself *and* add risk to Ctorj and Ion as kill targets. $5 gets you odds that he's scum with one of them.

[Thor665]

Lynching me to prove that Ctorj/Twisted should be lynched...yeah. I stand very much by my previous post.

[Thor665]

My strongest

town

reads?

Uh...whatevs...

Calc, Bub, Furc are the strong ones. Everything else gets very mushy middle after that. If I had to go with a fourth I'd probably go Haylen just considering how that wagon blew up and then how it migrated onto me for reasons that are "on noes a lynch is better than no lynch" also, quite frankly, I wouldn't tend to expect scum to have the cahones to be playing as badly as she is currently.

[Thor665]

Lynching me to prove that Ctorj/Twisted should be lynched...yeah. I stand very much by my previous post.

Do you see an alternative solution? I don't particularly like either lynch proposed as previously stated and there's not enough time to start a lynch elsewhere.

I'm gonna wash that lynch right outta my hair, gonna wash that lynch right outta my hair, and send responsibility on it's waaaaaay...

Other alternatives included not being one of the lurkers you're making fun of.
Not getting too excited about clearing Calc until we see the Pine flip.
And, I dunno, explaining how my flip will in any way advance a Ctorj or Twisted case if you want to use that as the justification for your vote.

Yeah.

[Thor665]

1. You have not been present and vocally advancing the cases you claim to have preference towards - yes.
2. Sure.
3. So...you think I'm town? You're not changing my opinion much here.

[Thor665]

@Pine - quote the AtE.

[Thor665]

So my AtE is clarifying an accusation and supplying my town reads when requested?
Yeah.
You'll be tomorrow, I don't know how in the heck you weren't today, but you'll be tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Oh wait, is the scumtell 'disagreeing with your lynch wagon'? Because only scum do that, yes. (attention, this is sarcasm...and Pine is black scum)

[Thor665]

@Pine - It's scummy to derail a compromise wagon? So my scum motivation was to keep all the attention on you and me? Yeah...

@Calc - We'll be discussing this one in endgame. Also, you still haven't explained Ctorj yet.

[Thor665]

Derailing a compromise wagon in itself isn't scummy. Your tactics are.

Because I lacked an anti-case? There was practically no case on her anyway. I had a case on you. Oh...wait...now I remember why this bugs you so much

[Thor665]

I'm the compromise wagon?
Derailing a compromise wagon isn't scummy?

Oh dear gawd.

[Thor665]

And I'm more interested in you explaining town-Ctorj, to be honest. I mean the neighborizing thing is pretty damn powerful, but even without that, his ISO is Smurf.

So basically the case is - he's not a strong player and obviouslly he got pappum's to roleclaim and/or talked him into hiding behind someone he shouldn't of?
I can reasonably buy the former if that's how you want to go - I fail to see ho me neighborizing him to a soon dead hider somehow proves he's scum - that's what I want explained, I already laid out my thoughts on why it was a null tell to you, why is it so difficult to give back. Please stop thinking you have everything figured out, I really don't think you do.

[Thor665]

Please stop thinking you have everything figured out, I really don't think you do.

You really don't think I do?
If you were town, you'd know I didn't have everything figured out.

But, if you want to convince me, how about focusing on scumreads of your own that are not named Pine as opposed to questioning me on mine.

::facepalm::

And if I'd said "I really know you don't have everything figured out" than you would have come wailing in with - Oh lordy, lordy, Thor knows the scumteams and knows I'm wrong, trololololol. Please sit on it with that one.

I've supplied both my top scumreads and my top townreads already - do you have an issue with how they were presented and need more, or what? And I'm allowed to discuss my disagreements with your cases - that's part of supplying my reads too. I really don't get your issue here.

[Thor665]

It's something I wrote, so by dint of that happening it's something I thought about as I wrote it. I didn't put any specific thought into how the wording would look alignment wise - but if I had I probably still would have chosen to use the phrase I did.

You, Bub, furc are my strong towns.

Pine, Duplicity, Ludi are my strong scums. But, yes, I'm discussing Pine today because evidence wise he's far clearer and wagon wise far more viable.

[Thor665]

-Bunnylover is supporting Thor with crappy reasoning, sheeping Calcifer onto me. Then when Calc moved to Thor and Thor was at L-1 Bunnylover said "should I sheep you [again] Calc?" and failed to actually do so. Glad your question made me ISO them, I didn't catch it until now. Bunnylover is almost certainly a scumbuddy of Thor's, go after them next when Thor flips scum

Thor, what do you think of this?

Frankly I think that looks like bussing/opposite scum team hunting of Pine and wanting permission to get on a wagon he knows is a mislynch if we're using it as evidence Bunnylover is scum. That said, there's so much...unoptimal play in this thread I have a hard time really telling. I think it's a reasonable angle to pursue, but is not the lynch for today since this is really a situational tell that until we confirm Pine's and my own alignment is not worth much more than noting. If I was scum on a team with me, I would be bussing my backside hard by this stage because I am clearly dead today or tomorrow if I'm one of the scum - who's bussing me hard? You and Pine? Yeah...

Duplicity as scum - gambit?

CJ's replace out was literally his only post this game. What are you saying, if he was scum he would have...stayed? No, I think that was RL rearing its head and is meaningless to alignment. Unless he has some sort of meta of replacing out of town games and loving scum games I'm unaware of?

Ludi as scum - gambit?

What gambit? Voting Bub? Complaining about lurkers? When did he open it up?
The only surprising "gambit" from him for me was how he ratcheted up the Pine defense after I said I thought they were scumbuddies. I don't see anything he's done that seems dramatically out of sorts for a scum game.

Language

No worries, I'm not offended (c'mon, I've played with Fate). I just choose to edit for my own personal reasons.

[Thor665]

To clarify - I do mean 'noting' and not 'nothing' when discussing Bunny.

[Thor665]

It has a hinted PR drop with no clarity, an admission of avoiding doing something because it looks scummy, a few reads tossed out, and that's it. It doesn't scream scum, but it certainly doesn't scream town either. I'd probably edge it towards scum if I had to judge the post alone and assign alignment to it. Are you aware of his scum replace out meta that is different from this? What's the blaring town tell I'm missing here?

For Ludi your suggestion is scum wouldn't draw attention to themselves? I, personally, don't buy that because my inaugural scum game I was pretty much the most noisy guy in the room. I fail to see how something that, as I said, was mostly just a lot of sturm and drang signifying nothing equates to a town tell...why, because it's so bad? Eh...as I said, there's been lots on unoptimal play around here. I think his play has consistently looked pretty questionable and is highlighted with lots of fluffiness and not a lot of actual content. Though you could rightly point to someone like Ctorj, or Bunny, and say the same thing - I note that Ludi's methods and language suggest a superior capability for it that I do not see reflected in his actions, and that looks scummier than players who I am uncertain of expecting higher quality from.

[Thor665]

Oh, and Ludi actively claimed experience on another site - so I'm not sure you should apply newbie to him so strongly except as far as newbie to MS, which is not reflective of actual scum experience as a whole.

[Thor665]

@Ludi - I also believe Pine is black scum. ::tries to grow larger palm::

Also, I don't know what you're worried about, it's been pretty clear for some time I'm the lynch happening today, that's what all the lurking and lethargy is about, duuuur. But the scum/weak players want me lynched and are being nervy about actually slamming it through, so they're waiting till "lol, deadline" so they can wash their hands of it more. Later everyone will sit around and mumble about how they didn't think I was scum, and people will nod sagely, and Pine will be lynched and will be scum, and I'll be in a dead QT making snide remarks - that's how the game is played, y'know

[Thor665]

Alright, Smurf it no more playing around. Your case on Pine is completly Smurf yet you seem contempt to force this lynch between yourself and him, either provide reasoning on why Pine is scum that doesn't involve setup speculation or pull your head out of your Smurf and start actuallly scumhunting because right now I see you flipping town, town lynching Pine to follow your request, him flipping town and you going 'woops' in the graveyard.

*sigh*
Am I doing this all wrong? Let's look at a "good" case by someone who is not making a Smurf case;

Summary:

- Lurking throughout the game while posting minimal content
- Contradicting himself by stating that suspects need to be pushed while not pushing any himself
- Avoidance of taking any stances by not naming the people he actually suspects
- Attempting to play the noob-card early in the game.

Pine was certainly lurking pretty hardcore at the beginning of the game (though I personally don't find that a scumtell).
Pine made a big show of me not claiming everything about my role when he didn't claim everything about his when he first mentioned it - so that's a contradiction for him. (not that I really think contradictions are scumtells either)
I don't think Pine has done either of the other two - does that make the difference between obvious scum and likely town here? Pine did go from 'I have no idea what my tracking results on Thor are' to a sudden 'Thor not claiming means he's scum' and has ignored the fact that I clearly claimed to the conf. town I was neighbored with - I frankly think that level of pants on head ignoring issues says something.

Finally - yes, I do believe that a scum tracking role flip, and Pine with a tracking role, and a double town hider flip makes for a very strong setup spec case. You can keep using cuss words every time you mention it, but I think it's very much there.

Also, I have pointed out other reads - just because I'm focused on Pine as the largest does not remove that. I wish everyone would at least stop belieiving that all I'm doing is tunneling Pine and nothing else. I'm certainly on him like white on rice, but have provided multiple other reads, opinions, and responded to questions asked of me. You say my blinders are on, I say you've got the same effect regarding my play.

@Calcifer, I'm willing to compromise with a Thor lynch if you promise to lynch both of these two if I die.

And apparently requesting people you think are scum to die if you die is...not cool? Yay, contradictions as scum tells, right? But seriously - you, blinders, more so than me as far as I can tell.

[Thor665]

If you do indeed have alternate scum-reads which you do then is there any particular reason you haven't attempted to create a case or push against either of them?

For the same reason I'm well aware I'm being lynched today. I'm, more often then not, on a lynch wagon at the end of day, regardless of alignment, in pretty much every game I play. It appears to be one of my stronger skill sets, in that I can read who is actually a viable lynch that can happen and who is not.

My other top scum are you and Ludi - neither of those lynches is happening today because neither of them has the traction of me, Pine, Ctorj, or Bub which far outstrip them in support. As such, I choose not to waste my time or anyone else's haranguing on and on about them. Meanwhile, by setting up a Thor or Pine situation I get to see how people react to it, look for buddy actions from the rest of his scumbuddies (who are black, fyi) and also eyeball the wagons from the fairly unique perspective of the wagonee. I think I've provided some solid opinions and commentary about the situation. Look at the freak out from the thread when I pointed out how I was confirmable - look at how people don't actually call me scum via any particular case, but just a general feel, but are getting on me anyway and vaguely citing deadline. This is pure gold for later in the day, because both scum teams want me dead. The Blacks because I've busted their buddy, and the reds because they don't want a confirmable town dorking around, especially not since their only way to avoid it is - without coordination possible - to kill either Ion or Ctorj who are both functionally scum wet dreams of town, or are scum themselves.

That's why you're scum too - you hopped on me right after that, flapped around as I pointed out my scum reads on you. Suddenly had a revelation that maybe you should push Ctorj, and are now singing the gospel of Thor and Pine are town. Plus you're now acting like I never presented a case on you, when I've mentioned you multiple times today - you want that read to die and be forgotten as soon as you were 'right' about Thor being town.

[Thor665]

1. And I pointed out how I could confirm in 1089, then you and Noc hopped on me, then i called you the scummy one. Seems to be in line with what I said, actually.
2. See above, I certainly didn't do it near the beginning of day, because that's when i was refusing to claim.
3. Wouldn't mind them, actually.
3. (4.) You sorta quoted a case I made on you. Please don't think that a case needs to be four paragraphs long and contain twelve quotes and five links in order to be a case.

[Thor665]

1. I openly stated that at the time, so, yes. In fact, my FOS was based around evidence involving you voting me, so it's intrinsically part of the case and tell I am using. What of it?
2. That was actually Calc creating that plan, feel free to ask him, but he's the one who created the idea, chose the targets, and asked if I'd be willing to do it. In any case, however, it was forgotten by the time I started to be wagoned up and I brought it up again and it certainly garnered reactions.

[Thor665]

@Duplicity - Due to the fact of when and how you voted, certainly. This is an interesting defense coming from someone who just claimed problems with that particular skill. Tell you what, I'll reappraise once I see those quotes about me/Pine.

@Pine - "Ohmigawd, just please get that Thor vote through asap" amirite? If I can triple target it will put a *significant* question into why I didn't triple target last night and also, possibly, make people pause and wonder why the scum team I'm supposedly on, was so scared of Cecily that we had to kill her. It will also bring into sharper resolution my mirror claim and, maybe, make people notice that I don't have an alternate. Finally, it will give us a chance to kill you, because as soon as mirrored scumteams become factual my lack of a duplicate neighborizer will clear me.

[Thor665]

C'mon boys - someone needs to grow the set and hammer me like you've been wanting to do for the last week straight. I'm not scum and I'm not doing it for you - I want the town to have it for analysis later.

The only thing really making Duplicity look better to me is Pine's attack on him just now, which probably does show I'm tunneling at this stage, but whatevs. He and Noc got on me at a questionable time - and though I'm annoyed Noc keeps swinging around my "slip" like it means something, it does suggest he did some legitimate scumhunting through my iso. I predict Noc town and Dup scum for that reason.

I still say Bub is a mislynch waiting to happen. Pine needs to be lynched, probably one of Ludi and Ctorj need to be lynched as well, I'm confused. There's at least one scum in Bunny, hohum, and Haylen.

That's all I've got - good luck with this, please extract head from backside town, I'll be rooting for you (bitterly) from the Graveyard, though I may make some snide remarks and 'I told you so' comments

[Thor665]

Yes, Pine, because I was the one who brought up the totality of the Duplicity case, to save him once I flip scum and then get worried when people start buying into it. Let me put it this way - I'm suspecting he's not black scum.

[Thor665]

ITT Pine calls someone obv. scum - then begins to sheep all their reads. So Duplicity

and

Ludi are scum now, huh? Cute.

Town continues to sleep.

Thor continues to wonder why the lynch that was obvious a week ago refuses to happen. I usually feel scum prefer not to be the hammer on a town wagon, and anyone with half a brain knows this one is going to be looked at three times over once the dust settles. Pine and Ludi/Ctorj are the scum most likely on the wagon. I'm going to repeat my call about Duplicity, and repeat also the Pine wagon - at least one of those is a scum as well who wants some town points for not being on my wagon.I still call Haylen a gut town, so it's probably hohum or Bunny. Bunny certainly laid the groundwork for a 'told ya Thor was town' play earlier, which is suspect. hohum...well, this is hardly unusual meta for him. Meh, I'll leave it to the rest of you to puzzle that one out tomorrow. Considering Pine's reaction it's really not a buddy manuver, so red or clear on hohum. I'll actually say that's probably a town read - would have been easy as scum to 'catch up' and avoid commenting on the wagon till after the flip which is infinitely safer as a scum play. So Bunny is a character of *high* interest.

Look at Bunny/Duplicity off my wagon.
Look at Pine (black), Ludi, and Ctorj on the wagon.
If I'm right about the setup being mirrored I will mock you all endgame...if I'm wrong...um...I'll just hope you don't remember this part

[Thor665]

Lack of beard.

[Thor665]

^^^
This.

[Thor665]

Still boggles the mind.

[Thor665]

I actually think this setup favored town pretty strongly. It was a setup ripe for town breakage. All of my accurate calls in the dead QT (and in thread) were easily based off the most simplistic setup spec it was laughable. Yeah, there was a ton of scum, but town should have been eating their faces because by Day 3 9and certainly by Day 4+) scum functionally had no allowable false PR claims.

I'll admit...yeah, they actually did use some, and even sat behind blatantly obvious scum claims, but I don't think that's the setup's fault.

I had a great time Tasky - though I should have stuck with just the neighboring for a while - probably would have caught a lot of scum and via my NK protection possibly lasted till late enough to make a play for win via killing. I just got too excited once I could start stabbing people to death. Ah, well.

[Thor665]

Wait, should I be doing that?

Everyone is super lucky I got caught and lynched, because if I hadn't been lynched or NKed I would have won, fools!

[Thor665]

I support Twistedspoon's request

Also - thanks.