Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[imaginality]

andrew94 is onto something but not for the reasons he thinks. tarsonisocelot's greeting to townies and mafia is not the mark of a serial killer. It's the sign of a mafioso who's thinking only in terms of town and mafia, rather than a townie who's considering all possible enemies. (Also the 'mafia scum' seems a bit forced when he could just say 'mafia', clearly trying to distance himself a bit with that phrasing.)

Vote: tarsonisocelot

As for yabbaguy, StefanB's question is about as useful as the 'are you carrying illegal drugs?' questions on custom forms. "Why yes, StefanB, I am scum." But he's right that yabbaguy's concern about being a possible lynchee is a bit odd. One to keep an eye on.

[imaginality]

@imaginality: No vote from him, but that's actually worse and merits my vote. Mentions StefanB in passing. I'm not sure if imaginality has a somewhat formulaic/robotic personality ordinarily. Him mentioning StefanB out front just to say "you made an error, but I agree with you" is actually very intriguing. Whether that's buddying or just generic blathering, we definitely should strongly consider him first.

Some misrepresentation going on here. I voted tarsonisocelot for reasons explained in the post. Very weak reasons, but it's the opening page, gotta start somewhere! Given that I'd voted her, how could I have voted you as well?

And I questioned the value of StefanB's question to you (and as a sidenote here, I thought he responded well to me on that point), but agreed with him that your opening post was of interest. I didn't call you scummy for it, I said I'd be keeping an eye on you.

The scummiest thing so far is certainly Jase's post. Not his reasoning for finding you scummy. That's just crappy. What's actively scummy is that he calls you scummy but then goes and casts a random vote instead.

Unvote; vote: Jase

- why did you 'ignore what [you] just said' and vote someone else instead of yabbaguy?

[imaginality]

Still very happy with my vote on Jase. Andrew94 has hit second on my scumlist with his last two posts (I'll go into more detail later). GroupThink is running third at the moment in a Schroedinger's-cat kind of way; keen to see what he says in his next post(s).

I liked how tarsonisocelot responded to the RVS case on her but she needs to start scumhunting.
Not sure why [L] felt the need to answer on Me=Weird's behalf just now?

Uncle Pain is a townread to me, as is yabbaguy.

[imaginality]

From your posts:

iso#2 I agreed with your read of Jase as scummy
iso#3 was nicely rational, and I liked your summation of yabbaguy's gambit.
iso#4 points 1 and 2 against Jase were good and point 3 was honest - I don't think scum would have included that point in that way. You also defended yourself reasonably against Jase and yabbaguy and were right to pressure GroupThink about his unexplained-vote entry into the game.

Overall I get the sense that you're actively trying to figure out who's scum, and defending yourself calmly when people cast suspicion on you rather than getting riled by that or deflecting from their points. At this (still relatively early) stage, that's good enough for me to be leaning town on you.

[imaginality]

(That was a reply to Uncle Pain.)

[imaginality]

Posts 79 and 84 have swung me around on Jase. I can buy that he was reaction-fishing, and he's making good use of the reactions (or lack thereof) for scumhunting. So

Unvote

StefanB is my current scummiest read.

Vote: StefanB

Factors include:

I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

Not sure why he needed to vote him to ask him a question? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I would translate this as blablabla.
No real reason given, interesting.

This is gut but the 'interesting' sounds weaselly to me. Calling it scummy without saying it outright.

You reacted, your reaction doesn't read town, it reads scum, liking my vote.

Never explained why yabba's reaction 'reads scum'. And "I know of the danger of tunneling, but I like my vote on you." is a bit suspiciously pre-emptive.

Unvote

Yes I have gotten over emotion.

Interesting that the timing of this comes after yabbaguy's unvoted StefanB (calling him a tunnelling townie) and after crazypianist1116 said about StefanB, "The case for yabbaguy makes no sense whatsoever." I could see, if StefanB is scum, how he would think this was a good point to back down from his yabbaguy vote and use the tunnelling excuse.

Rest of this post is also bad. The defense/argument with Zdenek about active lurking seems antsy and jumpy rather than calm. There's a bit of fluffy not-doing-much stuff (e.g. asking GroupThink to say more, commenting that Me=Weird? is V/LA, asking why Uncle Pain doesn't want an avatar). But the really bad bit is:

I don't think [yabbaguy] is sure town, no, but there are people who are more suspicios.

Coming in the post where StefanB has just unvoted yabbaguy, this is plain scummy. If you think someone is more suspicious, name them and vote for them, please.

It's also a conveniently neutral stance on yabbaguy - "I don't think he's sure town" implying you think he's somewhat town, "there are people who are more suspicious" implying you still suspect him somewhat. I read that as scum wanting to keep suspicion on as many players as possible.

[imaginality]

StefanB's posts this page really make me feel we've caught scum here.

For example, the end of 102 shows StefanB over-reacting to pressure on him:

Okay the game really gets me: We learn good townplay is never defend yourself, never attack strange post and never unvote if you are not 100% sure that your target is town, that you are off on your attack is not enough reason and never unvote and not immediatly vote again to collect your thoughts and get a little bit surer about some thinks.
VI ends post.

In 105 (and 102) I think the misunderstanding of Me=Weird's point is probably genuine, but I don't like this part:

I named Jase before, but thought there was enough presure on him, so I could do somethink that helps more. My sarcastic comment at GroupThink was there. I though at the moment of voting him, but thought this would be pointless since I didn't really exspect an answer.
BTW: Childlessly I am calling OMGOS.

But lynching me is okay, just don't do it that fast. Town can use some more content tomorrow.

What I don't like is that the whole of post 70 was pretty neutral in tone. There's nothing in that post to indicate clearly who his current top suspects were. "Hello GroupThink, care to say more?" isn't obviously "I think GroupThink is scummier than yabbaguy." And while yes, StefanB did name Jase in an earlier post, what he said was, "Voting [Jase] at the point is a good vote, but there is yabbaguy."

StefanB, if you

already thought

Jase would be a good vote,

why didn't you when you unvoted yabbaguy?

You say you thought you "could do somethink that helps more," but you didn't do anything else, just unvoted. I don't buy your explanations here.

The comment about calling OMGUS on Me=Weird is, well, more OMGUSsy itself than anything Me=Weird did, since it came without any reasoning, and in response to Me=Weird voting you.

And I hate the last line of the above quote. Reads so much like scum trying to appear town. "<gritted teeth>Oh no, I don't mind if I get lynched... really... <sobs>"

Post 113 is bitter in tone and again sounds more like caught scum than town. (Only two votes on him; I don't think town would feel so embattled so quickly compared with someone with a guilty conscience.)

Post 121, there's lots to say here too:

Defending myself I will only do against scummyattackers, because I am long past the time that slot is even considered posible town.

What do you mean by this? You aren't going to try to defend against the points made against you? You think some of the points are good ones but not others? You think you can't avoid being lynched now?

So would should I do to get people looking at other posters and help the game? ...At the moment the whole day will be wasted on looking at me.... Sorry everone tunneling on StefanB, lynching him is bad. Everone trying to make the most of day 1 and then lynching StefanB is better.

Bus your buddies.

I agree that you shouldn't be the sole object of attention, but you have to start by accepting you're under the spotlight right now for good reasons. It's possible for us to pressure you and still be looking at others as well - it's not like we're about to hammer you already. You sound more upset by the attention on you than you have a right to be.

You're looking a lot scummier to me than the others are right now, and your posts this page have just dug you deeper into that spot, but there are probably at least two other scum around so if you show me reasons to suspect someone else, I'm going to take a look at them. But self-pity and appealing to emotion aren't going to get me off your case.

I still belive the Me=Weird is scum, such he is not even trying to understand my posts. Hell, it feels like he is skimming them.
imaginality feels completly honest in pushing my waggon, Me=Weird does not a bit.
Andrew I don't know, he is normally better in finding real scum and he did take a lot of time to make that point, when it did happen days ago.

Disagree completely about Me=Weird. His pressure on you reads very genuine to me. If there's scum on your wagon it's andrew94 for joining the wagon based on a reason that is either poor or at best minor compared to the other stuff in your posts. The fact you're being harder on Me=Weird than on andrew94 makes me wonder if he might be your buddy.

[imaginality]

imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy? What convinces you that StefanB is not a VI?

On StefanB:

StefanB's posts read to me more like those of a weak scum player feeling aggrieved about what he sees as being caught for the wrong reasons, rather than a weak town player. Partly that's an overall impression, a matter of his tone, but some of the contributing factors are:

(i) his over-focus on the 'active lurking'* point against him, which shifted the focus onto him originally, compared with addressing the scummy aspects of his more recent posts;
(ii) appealing to emotion and having a 'defeated' air when he's only at L-4 (the weak townies I've seen 'give up' have tended to do it when they're closer to being lynched than this, though I don't have objective stats on this - that's just been my experience)
(iii) the way in which his refusal to argue against the 'genuine' people on his wagon seems like admitting that there are good reasons to want him lynched, and his concern is just to show us why we're wrong about the active lurking thing
(iv) seeing Me=Weird's pressure as not genuine and being less concerned about andrew94's doesn't make much sense from a townie (in my opinion), but does from this 'scum caught for the wrong reason' angle, since Me=Weird is the person who's pushed the 'active lurking' point

* I'm using this as shorthand; I know the actual point is not simply active lurking.


On andrew94, I wasn't all that impressed by his earlier posts (asking questions but not appearing to properly scumhunt, or move his vote to a non-random target), but this post was what stood out to me:

about stefanb: i dont know about yabba's reaction testing, but i got the sense that he was joking about dont lynch me, then made up the 'reaction test' part after as he went along. because he had a huge 'best ic' tag underneath him, it seems impossible that you can miss that. therefore, stenfanb is scum, because town wouldnt do 'stefan's first post' to an experienced player. HE later states that he did indeed see the best ic sign, and was trying to do a reaction test. this is absolute Bs and i get the feeling that he just wanted to seem like he is doing something
therefore unvote vote stefanb

There were plenty of good reasons to join the StefanB wagon, but this feels so stretched. 'Town won't ask a player with an award a rhetorical question about a scummy opening post to see what the other player says in response.' I really, really don't think that's a sound claim. This seems like andrew94 reading "how to be scum 101" and thinking, "hmm, if I'm going to get on the wagon and not look opportunistic, I have to come up with an independent reason rather than sheep what the others said."

I don't think StefanB is any more or less likely to be town if andrew94 flips scum, since andrew94 could be opportunistically joining the wagon either to try to get a mislynch if StefanB is town or to earn townpoints for bussing if StefanB is scum. But if StefanB flips scum, iStefanB's reluctance to challenge andrew94 compared with Me=Weird points slightly towards andrew94 also being scum (with StefanB not wanting to simply shift the pressure from him onto his scumbuddy, but rather onto a townie).

Going to comment on others in my next post - I don't want to spend all my time on StefanB. But I really think we've caught scum in him.

[imaginality]

Sorry for absence, proper post coming about 8 hours from now.

[imaginality]

Back, and caught up!

Update on StefanB

I found some of Stefan's recent posts still point to being scum. The contrast between attacking people on his wagon (e.g. Mist in 152 and Me=Weird in 162) and his 'I know that many townies belive I am scum' comment is more significant than the comment by itself. 193 has an odd contradiction where it seems he's claiming both that he lurks and that he starts discussions early on on Day 1s. And 202's "Well what exactly would the votes on Jase help town, he would have four not three. What does a vote on someone who will quit the game probably help" is a poor point, as well as the way he misrepresents my case against him as being mainly about scumpartners. ("But because nobody has said this to imaginality: Don't be sure of scumpair on day one before the flip.
Okay that we[re] imaginalitys good argument right?") My iso 5-7 give my reasons for suspecting StefanB, none of which were about scumpairs. (At the end of iso7, I said that I suspected

andrew94

for that reason, but I didn't use it as an extra point in my StefanB case.) In 223, I like that StefanB didn't put [L] at L-1 yet - that actually seemed pro-town... except that the final line pointing out how 'ultrascummy' of him it was not to vote throws that into question by linking the reason for not voting with "I know all hate this but I will be bussy with defending myself, so yes..." rather than it just being about not wanting the day to end yet.

Probably the best point in his favour is the way andrew94 and Mist7676 both hopped on his wagon opportunistically, though as I said earlier I could see that as scum bussing almost as much as scum wagoning town, so it's not a very strong argument against StefanB being scum.

Overall, there's plenty still niggling at me about StefanB and, while I can see there are newbie-tells and communication confusion muddying the waters, if you remove those null tells what's left still looks more scum than town.

Others

C-Worl(andrew94) - jumping on [L] wagon with minimal reasoning isn't a good start. I gave some reasons to suspect andrew94 previously. I'll withhold judgment on C-Worl until the 'full catch-up' but I do want to ask this:

@C-Worl: why vote if not fully caught up? Are you sure just from your skim that you'd be happy with an [L] lynch if that happened before you'd fully caught up?

[L] - crazypianist (217 and 244) makes good points against [L], as does Jase (206, 210, and 225) and Zdenek (128 and 154). 224 from [L], aside from Jase's point, is also an unfair response to StefanB's lack of vote as it completely ignores the not-wanting-the-day-to-end possible reason for not voting. I don't feel quite sure enough to switch my vote to [L] yet, but I'm certainly not opposed to an [L] lynch at this point.

@[L], in 172 why did you say you "Currently, I had to remove my vote to see how [tarsonisocelot] behaves"?

@yabbaguy, is your reason for backing off on [L] only that tarsonisocelet is attacking [L] and is scummier?)

Prox(Mist(GroupThink)) - I didn't like the way Mist7676 joined the StefanB wagon in 143. And avoiding commenting on [L] and SurpriseCarcinogen in his reads, then delaying (and avoiding) answering Uncle Pain's question about them, is suspicious in my eyes. Sign of scum wanting to see how the town's opinion lies before answering? Prox's first post doesn't inspire me with any greater confidence.

Actually, you know what,

Unvote; vote: Prox

I want to see where this goes. I think there's already enough reason to apply a vote here.

@Prox: What about tarsonisocelot's iso don't you like? Who else would you support a lynch of?

redtail896 - post 188 read well to me, and I agreed with Surprise Carcinogen's reads. redtail896's, too. Since replacing in, he seems to be actively scumhunting. Leaning town here.

tarsonisocelot - is the case against her that she's been fluff-posting? I don't see it. Early on, I guess, but from say iso 10 onwards she's been giving some good content. E.g:

iso 11 - good pressure on [L] for unvoting
iso 12 - yabba and Jase read
iso 13 - questions StefanB
iso 14 - more [L] pressure
iso 15 - okay this was IIoA, I'll grant
iso 16 - explains stuff

I'm not that much of a fan of the 're-read in parts' approach she's taking right now, but I don't think the wagon on her is justified.

Anyone not commented on above I read as town. In particular Me=Weird, crazypianist1116, Jase, and Uncle Pain. yabbaguy and Zdenek I'm less sure of (yabbaguy for overstating the tarsonisocelot case), but also leaning town on.

[imaginality]

Still waiting on yabba 's SC case and the imaginality andrew case, unless it's just that his argument seemed stretched.

No, you're right, although I commented on why I thought his vote for StefanB seemed stretched/possibly opportunistic, I did forget to comment on the two earlier posts that I mentioned in post 77.

firstly, whos LO?
secondly, uncle pain, please get an avatar.
thirdly, stefanB, can u explain ur psot 25, it does not make any sense

This post seemed at least a bit suspect for two reasons:

(i) not commenting on/getting involved in the non-RVS, actual contenty stuff that had been going on earlier on page 2
(ii) asking pointless questions (post 25 clearly not game-relevant, and TO (no-one had referred to 'LO' so I assume this was a mistype on andrew94's part) was an acronym that he could have figured out himself easily enough, so it seemed like asking for the sake of saying something.

@uncle pain, an avatar makes it easier to recognise that you posted that particular post.

@crazypianist when you say uncle pain is prob bussing jase, but you said hes first post was to deflect attention away from his scum buddies?
wtf

(i) the avatar stuff is again irrelevant, not scumhunting
(ii) question to crazypianist seemed either asking-for-clarification (and hence the post becomes scummy for not taking a stance on anything) or if it was meant to imply crazypianist was contradicting herself scummily, then why didn't he vote? also, not commenting on her other point against Uncle Pain

So it was the non-scumhunting plus asking questions for the sake of asking questions which were rubbing me up the wrong way about his posting, at that point.

[imaginality]

C-Worl: So [L] was scummy enough to vote (and, quite possibly, see lynched before your re-read was done) while you were mid-re-read, but doesn't look scummy to you anymore now you've finished the re-read? What changed?


My reasons for voting Prox were listed in 249:

Spoiler: imaginality 249

Prox(Mist(GroupThink)) - I didn't like the way Mist7676 joined the StefanB wagon in 143. And avoiding commenting on [L] and SurpriseCarcinogen in his reads, then delaying (and avoiding) answering Uncle Pain's question about them, is suspicious in my eyes. Sign of scum wanting to see how the town's opinion lies before answering? Prox's first post doesn't inspire me with any greater confidence.

Actually, you know what, Unvote; vote: Prox I want to see where this goes. I think there's already enough reason to apply a vote here.

@Prox: What about tarsonisocelot's iso don't you like? Who else would you support a lynch of?

In the same post I said I'd be okay with an [L] lynch but wasn't sure enough of him being scum to vote him to L-1 yet. And that I disagree with the 'fluff' case on tarsonisocelot as being good enough to lynch. That's pretty much still where I'm at with them.

Sidenote: I'm curious why you represent me (and Me=Weird too for that matter) as 'staying off the big wagons', when StefanB was one of the two biggest wagons for a long time (until you and Prox replaced in and unvoted him in quick succession). The way you phrase it makes it sound like a daylong thing.

What are your thoughts on Prox (and predecessors)?

[imaginality]

[L] pushing a 'tarsonisocelot is SK' alternative to his wagon makes me feel surer about the scum case on [L].

Unvote; vote [L] (L-1)

[imaginality]

Also, saying "He used to be a big wagon so your question is stupid" is quite hilarious bc, if you've been keeping up with the thread then you would have seen people unvote and thus maybe I should have phrased the question as so. "Why do you still solitarily cling to that wagon? What about it makes you believe that one person is scummier than the two currently biggest wagons?

Of course asking all that felt long winded and my original question seemed appropriate because @ the time of me asking you two were not on the two currently biggest wagons.

I didn't say your question was stupid, I said it misrepresented the situation. And yes, the alternative you give would have been a much better question to ask, and much clearer that that's what you were asking. Instead, it sounded like you were asking about a consistent day-long pattern of avoidance, rather than why I wasn't on either of the present two in particular.

[imaginality]

It's the fact the case is based on her being SK rather than scum that gets me.

We don't even know if we have an SK yet.

I think the fact you're SK-hunting already is a further indication of you being scum.

[imaginality]

Hammering was daft, nothing to add to that. Though I'm not giving up hope on [L] still being scum with C-Worl a buddy.

I know I shouldn't talk much in twilight, but I just wanted to say this real quick.

It's the fact the case is based on her being SK rather than scum that gets me.

We don't even know if we have an SK yet.

I think the fact you're SK-hunting already is a further indication of you being scum.

This is not how all of us, or even most of us, have been representing the case against TO.

I was only referring to [L]'s post in particular by 'the case'. I agree no-one else has come at tarsonisocelot from that angle.

[imaginality]

That's L-2 already.

@Uncle Pain and crazypianist1116:

Do you think we should lynch C-Worl already, right now?

If yes, isn't that hypocritical?
If no, if you think we should try to get more out of today first and get better reads on the other scum (even if you're sure C-Worl is one of them), then voting C-Worl without any comments, questions, reads etc on anyone else isn't doing anything to further that goal. I want to hear who else you suspect.

To be clear, I agree C-Worl looks pretty bad; it's the impression I'm getting that you'd be happy with a one-page Day 2 which I don't like.


I'm also a bit concerned by Me=Weird's post above, saying he'll be 'looking into [C-Worl and tarsonisocelot] later', because that points to not having spent any time rereading during the night.

yabbaguy, C-Worl, and Prox are highest on my suspect list at the moment though. I'll say more on each in my next post.

Oh, and tarsonisocelot badly owes us that reread summary:

No analysis or reread included here because I have neither time nor the reread summary I'm making with me.

.

[imaginality]

C-Worl: what's your read of yabbaguy?

[imaginality]

Plus he's not trying to derail my wagon as Jase's misrep says. He put me as his likely scum along with Tarson.

So you're saying you think he gets extra townpoints from you because he thinks you're scum?

[imaginality]

Will post within a day, just been exceptionally busy with schoolwork.

This minus the school- bit.

[imaginality]

Sorry - I will either be fully caught up and posting regularly again within 24 hours, or I will replace out if I can't pull my weight. I haven't lost interest in this game, it's just been an emotionally gruelling weekend.

[imaginality]

Ok, caught up. First, notes taken verbatim as I wrote them during my reread of the last few pages:

Spoiler: notes from re-read

Zdenek makes a good point about redtail in 330.

349 from yabbaguy feels off, the 'I'll let you know if you hit a trap' bit. Has a scum read on SC/redtail.

tarsonisocelot's posts on that page, and 350, read well to me.
I'm happy with UnclePain's 356 - his answers to me and questions to tarsonisocelot. And this question to yabbaguy:

"So your case against redtail896, which reads to me basically as gut feeling, is more convincing to you that the C-Worl wagon? Plus, why are you suddenly not so sure any more about tarsonisocelot-scum?"

361 from Me=Weird seems scummy-ish, like trying to get a quick-hammer (especially since any townie who did so would likely be lynched tomorrow regardless of C-Worl's flip). C-Worl calling her scum for voting him suggests she's bussing him, if he flips scum.

Jase's point about a possible Uncle Pain - redtail connection is interesting, though I still have a good townread on Uncle Pain.

373 from yabbaguy misrepresents crazypianist, I think? I thought lining up lynches is when you say, "If X flips {scum/town} then we lynch Y tomorrow." crazypianist is just saying "lynch TO tomorrow". It seems independent of today's lynch. This is just a terminology point though.

374 tarsonisocelot's reasons for worrying about a self-hammer sound genuine.

378 from Zdenek (answering Uncle Pain's question) sounds genuine

C-Worl's posts on this page are townier than the previous couple of pages.

tarsonisocelot's reads in 386 are mostly well-reasoned but I disagree with this on yabbaguy: "There are a few inconsistencies, such as where he's not sure if [L] is an ok wagon or a terrible one but I think scum would have been more careful to avoid this." Scum make mistakes, it's how we catch them. It doesn't seem too glaring a mistake to use that 'too scummy to be scum' dismissal of it.

wow, interesting to see bvoigt follow up yabbaguy's suspicion of Uncle Pain. And boldly calling C-Worl town.

I think Uncle Pain is right to question bvoigt's read of him, it seems like bvoigt just trying to stick with his slot's previous reads, which I see as scummy. On the other hand, the "I'm not affiliated with redtail" remark is pretty odd - tarsonisocelot is right to call him on this.

406 from crazypianist I like.

413 from redtail feels inadequate as an explanation.

415 where bvoigt says he'll keep his vote on redtail cos yabbaguy voted him - I don't like that.

To answer the question to me ("One random thing I noticed. Why did you say that hammering in that situation made them likely to be buddies?"), that misrepresents what I said, which was only that it was

possible

[L] was scum, despite the quickhammer on him. I thought if [L] flipped scum, I could see the hammer as an attempt to get townpoints for bussing while also cutting the day short. i.e. the hammer looked scummy to me whichever way [L] flipped.

@Uncle Pain, I think the other point that's been made against redtail896 is Surprise Carcinogen's fluff-posting.

My current reads:

Scum
.
.
C-Worl - the first few pages of today really read as scum rather than town. I was suspicious of andrew94 on Day1, too. And the hammer is of course the biggest point here.
.
bvoigt - see notes for some reasons. Looking back on D1, I think he's been given too much towncredit for the opening gambit, which, while I can see wasn't scummy, could have been a prepared opening by scum as much as by town.
.
Rangerofthenorth - there's not a lot to go on, but at this stage in the game that's somewhat telling in itself. Ranger's got a lot to do to make up for the combined impression the previous inhabitants of this slot have made. It's mostly a lurkcase but we're well into Day 2, continued lurkiness looks increasingly suspect. And my earlier comment in #249 made some other points:

Prox(Mist(GroupThink)) - I didn't like the way Mist7676 joined the StefanB wagon in 143. And avoiding commenting on [L] and SurpriseCarcinogen in his reads, then delaying (and avoiding) answering Uncle Pain's question about them, is suspicious in my eyes. Sign of scum wanting to see how the town's opinion lies before answering? Prox's first post doesn't inspire me with any greater confidence.

.
.
.
Me=Weird - swaying here. My head says town but I have a gut feeling I could be missing something.
redtail896 - not one of my strongest suspects, but seeing more possibilities here than with the others below
.
.

Zdenek - a bit quiet (I know, I'm one to talk) but his posts read well
crazypianist1116 - mostly liking her posts
UnclePain - the "we're not associated" line is the one thing that sticks out to me, pretty obv-town otherwise in my opinion
tarsonisocelot - playing much better now and reading very genuinely
Jase - aggressive, accurate points
.
.
Town


I'm happy to lynch C-Worl today, though per Jase's comment, let's not do it yet, especially since some of us have missed various chunks of the day. I'm particularly keen to hear more from Rangerofthenorth.

[imaginality]

Quick-hammering D1, self-hammering D2? If C-Worl isn't scum I'm not playing with him again.

If he is scum, lol, amusing way to go out.

@bvoigt, I don't think it was opportunistic, I was suspicious of it mainly because I had (and have) a strong townread on Uncle Pain and it seemed like most other people at that time also saw him as town. So, to see one person disagree with that (yabbaguy), okay. When you came in and also gave a scumread on him, the chances of that seemed unlikely. So that's why I thought you were maybe just echoing yabbaguy's reads, and I couldn't see any pro-town reason for doing that, but I could see potential scum motive (sticking to whatever plan had been agreed during the night).

[imaginality]

@Uncle Pain - any reason not to post your longish post anyhow, if you still have it?

[imaginality]

With C-Worl/andrew94 flipping scum, I had a look back at their posts, particularly andrew94's, to look for connections. I noticed very little mention of the following three players: Me=Weird, Rangerofthenorth (et al), and Zdenek. andrew94 seems like the sort of player to err on that side of avoiding mentioning his scumbuddies, so I suspect at least one of those three to be scum, and I'm currently isoing them to see which I think is most likely.

[imaginality]

I reread Me=Weird, Zdenek and Rangerofthenorth in iso. My write-up's on my home computer and I'm away at the moment (home Monday) but in short, I think all three are plausible as scumbuddies due to D1 (lack of) interactions and in the case of Me=Weird and Rangerofthenorth reasonable possibility they bussed C-Worl D2. However Me=Weird is looking better than Rangerofthenorth otherwise, so.

Vote: Rangerofthenorth

One thing nagging me about the NK, I don't think bvoigt was obvtown so I want to look more at why he might have been picked - did scum think he was a PR, were they worried by his reads, or did they think he's obvtown?

I agree with Jase about that other stuff.

[imaginality]

Hey people. Doing my best to boil down the walls and look at stances rather than pedantry, here's my current sense of things:

People's stances today

chkflip

(and redtail896) haven't given any reads today.

crazypianist1116

voted Setael on a 'hunch'.

imaginality

expressed suspicion of Setael, Me=Weird and Zdenek in that order.

Jase

hasn't given any strong reads today. He fencesat on Setael vs Uncle Pain, and asked cautionary questions to Me=Weird and tarsonisocelot.

Me=Weird

expressed suspicion of Setael and Zdenek in that order.

Setael

has set her stall on an Uncle Pain - Zdenek scumteam, with a town read on everyone else.

tarsonisocelot

expressed some suspicion of Jase.

Uncle Pain

expressed suspicion of Setael and Zdenek, in that order, and a townread on chkflip.

Zdenek

expressed suspicion of chkflip, and has a townread on Uncle Pain.

Thoughts: Me=Weird limiting her suspicions to Zdenek and Setael is interesting, since they're the two other people who are grouped with her as candidates for being a buddy of C-Worl/andrew94's (due to lack of interactions).

In contrast, Zdenek giving a town read on Uncle Pain is fairly bold if he's scum because if Setael's case gains traction it could easily come down to Zdenek vs Uncle Pain for the lynch. So, I think either Zdenek = town or Zdenek and UnclePain are the scumteam. I.e. I don't see Zdenek scum and Uncle Pain town as very likely. But, I've had a pretty solid town read on Uncle Pain for most of the game, and his defense has been calmly, clearly argued, so I'm leaning towards them both being town.

I like Setael's play, too, though. His case against Zdenek and Uncle Pain is over-certain at times and some points were stretches, but my gut says he is more likely town than scum. I've been impressed with the way he seems to be actually analysing stuff rather than offering lazy reads.

So, I lean towards Setael, Zdenek and Uncle Pain all being town.

On the other hand, chkflip/redtail896's lack of interest in the day fits with possible scum sitting back watching a town vs town spat, as does tarsonisocelot's lack of comment. Jase was pretty fence-sitty about Setael's attack vs Uncle Pain's defense, but I give him high town points for previous days and, despite the stoush at the start of today, I still think he's likely town.

Yesterday, there really wasn't much effort to put forward an alternative to the C-Worl lynch. To me it seems quite likely the mafia decided N1 to bus him rather than try to rescue him from the fairly blatant quick-hammer. That points towards early bussing rather than late bussing, which to me suggests chkflip/redtail896 as a likely scumbuddy. (If not him, I might need to reconsider the townread I've had on crazypianist1116.)

Unvote; vote: chkflip

Reads based on the above thoughts plus previous days' play:

Scum
--
chkflip
Me=Weird
crazypianist1116
tarsonisocelot
Zdenek
Setael
Uncle Pain
Jase
--
Town

[imaginality]

EBWOP: Sorry Setael, replace 'his' with 'her' in the paragraph about you.

[imaginality]

You'll have to explain how you see his play because I'm not really seeing it as a defense of C-Worl.

Zdenek's "the hammer was hasty but I see more scum-intent in Redtail" angle in his iso #10 at the start of D2 seems consistent with his more detailed read of C-Worl in iso #15, which was hardly a strong defense of him (it can be summarised as, "C-Worl's scummy for various reasons, but the hammer was actually too blatant to be scum,"), and his suspicion of redtail896 built on iso #7 from the previous day. I dunno, but it doesn't seem like he had much expectation or concern about saving C-Worl from the lynch (as compared with saying, "Hey guys I think we've caught scum here too").

And I don't see Zdenek pushing for people to lynch redtail896 (or anyone else) over C-Worl, which is what I'd expect from someone if scum really were trying to prevent the lynch.

[imaginality]

Of course, bvoigt/yabbaguy did defend C-Worl but he's already flipped town, and I didn't see anyone else echo his defense - wouldn't scum have agreed with him and helped him push his line of argument, if they wanted to save C-Worl?

The only other possibility I see for scum trying to stop C-Worl from being lynched is Me=Weird's post here.

[imaginality]

Who are my top two suspects? Setael and crazypianist, I guess. I don't think much of the spamwalls. They really don't help the game at all, and I really want UP and setael to consolidate their stuff into a few main points.
This game has come to a standstill. We need to get a lynch going, so if necessary I will go for CP.
TIO,

why do you suspect them in that order

? Also, why are you voting someone who isn't on that list at all.

Those are the people who have been posting walls. Out of theose three people I find Zdenek scummiest, then Setael, then UP.
I find CP scummier than any of them for now.

That doesn't really answer that at all.

[imaginality]

Just noticed this:

Surprise is town. Scum doesn't admit to being afraid of being called out for omgus like she did in 62.

Really? I don't have stats to back me up, but that heightened sensitivity to how others are going to view a post/point seems more like a scumtell than a towntell to me. It certainly seems like a weak basis to make a 'Surprise[chkflip] is town' call from.

(The relevant paragraph to save others looking back):

And, no, my reasoning is, good players don't feel the need to outright say "I'm a good player." I don't consider it a sign of scum, but bad play in general, and at the moment, as I don't really have a strong scum-read on anyone, aside from perhaps Zed(and I'd hesitate to try and make anything against him for fear of being called out for omgus), I have to follow what I do have.

[imaginality]

looks like I'm tied for leadwagon, with Setael as the other option. Neither amuses me.

This suggests you lean town on Setael. But you say you've only read pages 1-4 (during which the only GroupThink post was a vote on UnclePain (with no comment made), and this page. Where are you getting that townread from?

[imaginality]

Recent posts:

581 Me=Weird - I like this post. Good point about chkflip's response to his criticism of his (lack of) posting. Also, I agree Setael's unvoting in preparation for possibly changing her seems odd.

584 Pine - I quite like the "Can anyone tell me why they haven't been lynched?" line. Not that anyone answered but it seems a useful question to ask for trying to form reads based on people's answers. In my view: Jase didn't get lynched because once he'd explained his reaction-testingy early play, he was very obvtown from then on. tarsonisocelot didn't get lynched because [L] looked pretty scummy. I actually forgot tarsonisocelot was second wagon for the latter part of that day though. Might explain why C-Worl took the chance to quickhammer?

593 mastin2 - as mentioned, criticising the wagon on Setael without having formed a read on her yet seems suspicious. 595 doesn't really excuse it, since it came across as expressing disapproval (especially since the 'neither' equates it with the wagon on himself, which he can be expected to disapprove of), rather than merely a null read.

The excessive excusing of his slow re-reading seems.. hm.

@mastin2

, can you provide a few links to other games you've replaced into recently?

598 mastin2 - The tarsonisocelot suspicion seems vaguely expressed, especially "I'm not sure if it's logic, gut, or a combination thereof which makes me suspicious of her."" Usually easy to tell logic from gut, I'd say. I'm wondering if the "I suspect TO but not too sure, maybe I'm tunnelling" is an attempt to get someone else to make a case against her first.

601 mastin2 - four days to complete your re-read, that close to deadline? I don't like the attitude of "that should leave enough time to stop mislynches". I feel like you were hoping to let town get on with mislynching and not have to contribute to the discussion in the meantime, until it was down to one or two wagons.

At least the deadline's extended now so we should have a decent amount of time to mull over the conclusions of your re-read/VCA.

607 Setael - Don't like this comment to Uncle Pain: "Are you seriously trying to make me look suspicious for NOT tunneling?" You can not tunnel and not unvote, you know...

What do YOU think of TO's statement that she finds both you and Zdenek town (him less so but meh) but if Zdenek flipped scum you'd be guaranteed scum? I have a huge problem with it, especially considering she hasn't said what if anything she agrees with as far a connections between you 2. I'm surprised you don't have a problem with it as well IF you're not scum with zdenek.

If UP = scum and Zdenek = scum, he'd also have reason to want to cast doubt on the "If Zdenek flips scum UP is scum" hypothesis. So him casting doubt on it would be pretty null, which means him not casting doubt on it is also kinda null.

608 Jase - I still feel like C-Worl seemed so clearly the likely lynch from so early D2 that scum are more likely on that wagon than off it. (For example, no-one backed up Zdenek's "the hammer wasn't scummy" suggestion, and even Zdenek offered that too weakly to seem like scum genuinely trying to save scum from a lynch.)

610 Uncle Pain - I like this question to tarsonisocelot:

I don’t get this. You’ve seen me as a townie all the time. Now you look for connections and find a good scum team: Setael and Zdenek. It would then be sensible to lynch Zdenek BUT should he flip scum (as you expect) suddenly I am likely scum. WTF?

613 Jase (and 618) - I think this is overly harsh on Me=Weird. I read his sentence as 'Setael hasn't changed that [read]' - it's clear from the following sentence he acknowledges she's been more active.

616 tarsonisocelot - I don't like how she jumped on the Me=Weird wagon here.

Setael (2) - Me=Weird, Pine
mastin2 (2) - Zdenek, imaginality
Me=Weird (2) - Jase, tarsonisocelot
tarsonisocelot (1) - mastin2
Zdenek (1) - Setael

Not voting (1) - Uncle Pain

Not liking the spread here, we could do with starting to consolidate this.

The last few pages make me feel better about Me=Weird, worse about Setael, mastin2, and tarsonisocelot. I'll stick with my mastin2 vote for now, but I'm happy to support a tarsonisocelot wagon also. Those two are definitely my preferred lynch choices for today. I could potentially be convinced to vote Setael, Pine or Me=Weird (in order of preference) but it would take a better case than I've seen so far. Not interested in Zdenek (mainly because I don't think his defending C-Worl is that strong of a point, and his town read on Uncle Pain early today looked much more likely from town than scum), Uncle Pain or Jase (both those two, especially Jase, have looked very town to me for most of the game).

[imaginality]

593 mastin2 - as mentioned, criticising the wagon on Setael without having formed a read on her yet seems suspicious. 595 doesn't really excuse it, since it came across as expressing disapproval (especially since the 'neither' equates it with the wagon on himself, which he can be expected to disapprove of), rather than merely a null read.

I could make some sort of justification, an excuse, to counter this, but it'd be flat-out BS. And if I can't convince myself, it's not going to convince anyone else.

What more do you want me to say? A Setael wagon doesn't look apetizing to me. Didn't then, still doesn't now. If anything, recent posts are making me dislike it even more.

No need to comment further. The point was you came out against a Setael wagon based on (at that time) reading only pages 1-4 and 24, when there's really not enough Setael and previous on either of those pages to give a read based on. Your quickness to dissaude us from the Setael wagon is a point against Setael if you flip scum.

The excessive excusing of his slow re-reading seems.. hm.

Bad Timing? I'm working on a project in Real Life with a deadline of tomorrow, and had other obligations with deadlines. (Which...did not quite go as I had planned. Ask Pine.)

Admittedly, there's also the fact that I'm an eternal procrastinator, but I tend to work through that when I run out of other distractions, and/or I realize I can't put it off any longer. Which...*checks deadline* we're approaching rather rapidly.

I'll be ready on time.

Who was it who said smileys are a scumtell? Probably it was tongue in cheek, but in this instance, I can see it.

@mastin2, can you provide a few links to other games you've replaced into recently?

Sure, [REDACTED - Ongoing], where I just flipped [REDACTED].
[REDACTED - Ongoing], where I recently flipped [REDACTED].
[REDACTED - Ongoing], I was in from the start, and I haven't flipped there, yet.
[REDACTED - Ongoing], as a hydra from the start, where I flipped [REDACTED].
Oh, and outside of New York, there's always [REDACTED - Ongoing], where I haven't flipped, and--of course--this game, where I am [REDACTED]. (:P)

...Yeah, if you don't mind, I'd much prefer to wait for the

Mod

to approve of linking to ongoing games before I just assume it's okay, thankyouverymuch.

Sorry, I was unclear: I didn't mean ongoing games, just historically recent, but completed games.

I don't like the attitude of "that should leave enough time to stop mislynches".

Refer to my sig. Shutting down moronic mislynches is something I just do well.

I don't mind shutting down moronic mislynches, but shutting them down one day before deadline (according to your 96 hour estimate and the deadline at the time) wouldn't have left a whole lot of time for discussion of who to lynch instead.

I'll stick with my mastin2 vote for now, but I'm happy to support a tarsonisocelot wagon also. Those two are definitely my preferred lynch choices for today. I could potentially be convinced to vote Setael, Pine or Me=Weird (in order of preference) but it would take a better case than I've seen so far.

Funny, for someone who is voting me to show support for who I'm voting (well, who my predecessor voted which I coincidentally currently agree with), as well as voting on the (current, technically) lynchwagon.

...That made more sense in my head. I'll see if I can reword it later in a way which makes more sense to everyone else.

/Still workin'.

I read this as you asking me why I suspect tarsonisocelot as well as you, when you are voting tarsonisocelot?

I find you both scummy independently. If you flip scum, I'd look at Setael first as a plausible buddy. Haven't looked in detail at who a tarsonisocelot scumflip would incriminate. I don't think you're particularly likely to be scumbuddies, though I haven't seen anything compelling either way on that front. Your vote currently being on tarsonisocelot doesn't hold much 'not-scum-buddies' weight to me at the moment since you could easily find reasons to switch away when you finish your re-read if you want to.

[imaginality]

EBWOP: the best point I've seen against you being buddies with tarsonisocelot is my point about 598, where it looks like you're trying to entice people to wagon her for you, but since that would be a scumtell against you, it's probably not a point you agree with...

[imaginality]

Jase:

About my 608 I disagree. While scum was very likely to be on the wagon it wouldn't be unheard of for at least one to be off, and as for Zdeneks defense of C-worl a strong defense would have been suicide should c-worl have been lynched.

My issue is it seemed very clear from very early in the day that it would take a big effort to get someone other than C-Worl lynched, so I don't see why scum would apply a weak effort, rather than either go for broke and hope to succeed at shifting the lynch, or not bother defending C-Worl at all. Coming out only weakly in defense, given how D2 was going, seems like poor scum play in that situation.

As for Me=Weird, if 614 was his first response then I'd agree it's overly shouty and cause for suspicion. But 570 and 581 were pretty calm attempts to clarify things before that (even though they didn't really do so), so 614 fits a bit more with 'townie getting frustrated by an attack they don't understand'. Me=Weird's post on this page does somewhat make me wish I'd held off commenting, and waited to see if Me=Weird could explain it on his own rather than just echo what I said about it, but it just seemed so clearly a misunderstanding to me that I figured it would end up being explained as such in the end, whether he's town or scum.

[imaginality]

PINE: Why did you switch votes to jase, if you've only read the first 5 pages?

QFT. I didn't like that one bit either.

That + the terribad reasons for voting him = obv mislynch.

Reasons plural? The only reason you've commented on previously (that I can see) is Uncle Pain saying mastin2 is active lurking. Which other reasons for our suspecting mastin2 do you think are 'terribad' and why?

[imaginality]

If tarsonisocelot is town, so is Pine. I think if Pine were scum and TO town, he'd leave her more open as a future mislynch.

[imaginality]

mastin2's also at L-1, so I don't know if we should make Zdenek claim unless we want to lynch him more than mastin2. No point in risking outing a power role (or narrowing down the targets for scum, if Zdenek is VT), unless he's the preferred lynch of the two.

Pine should get a firm read on Zdenek and mastin2 asap.

[imaginality]

@Pine: okay, if you want a Zdenek lynch then he should claim.

Me=Weird and Uncle Pain: what are your current reads on Zdenek? How do you feel about a Zdenek lynch?
Jase and Setael: what are your current reads on mastin2? How do you feel about a mastin2 lynch?

For me, Zdenek as scum doesn't make sense unless Uncle Pain is scum (as per my point earlier in the day about Zdenek giving a townread on Uncle Pain rather than trying to deflect pressure onto him), but I've had a town read on Uncle Pain all game. I think scum bussed C-Worl and decided to use those who didn't vote him as mislynch-bait. And there doesn't seem to be much of a case on Zdenek aside from that. So I think a Zdenek lynch is pretty likely a mislynch.

[imaginality]

Hmmm.

A bodyguard protecting a PR-read. Another bodyguard protecting no-one two nights running.

On the one hand, I find it rather a coincidence that mastin2 just happens to have the same role Zdenek claimed. If it was earlier in the day, I'd believe the counter-claim more, but at this stage with it being an either-or call, it seems more unlikely. And would the predecessors, whatever their activity, really have failed to submit an action N2 and chosen not to protect N1? That seems more like a convenient claim to avoid getting caught out by any watcher or tracker results.

On the other hand, it seems kind of bold to fake-claim and claim no-action for both nights. But then, presumably mastin2 (if scum) isn't expecting to live tomorrow when Zdenek flips town. So all his claim has to do is get Zdenek lynched today. And a VT claim would probably see him lynched instead of Zdenek.

Added to that, I took mastin's softclaim to be indicating he was VT, so I can see where Zdenek's coming from there.

Overall, I think mastin2 is scum trying to get Zdenek lynched while knowing it means he'll be lynched himself tomorrow.

P-edit: mastin2, why would Zdenek worry about crazypianist suspecting him, if he thought she's cop? If he's town, he'd know she'd get an innocent result on him. (And if he's scum and thinks she's cop and she suspects him, wouldn't he just nightkill her?) Not sure why that's a point against him.

[imaginality]

Now reading Zdenek's iso to see if mastin2's right about Zdenek thinking CP was scummy, since if true that would be a better point against Zdenek's claim.

[imaginality]

Also on the "I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I lived through my night" - that fits

better

with a VT claim than a bodyguard one. A VT with ideal play should be the nightkill by playing so well scum try to kill them. A bodyguard with ideal play should locate and protect a town PR of more value, and should only be the nightkill if scum target that player. (No value in dying to protect a VT instead of protecting a cop, unless the VT is an awesome scumhunter.)

Zdenek's 2 and 14 express fairly mild suspicion of CP. In between, in iso 4 he says CP is 'fine'.

22 does call CP scummy for not scum-hunting, although qualifies it with "at least what seems to be a lack of suspects, he's said little today". That seems to at least not contradict the idea of Zdenek viewing CP as a lurky PR (compared with if there were other reasons given aside from relative lack of activity). ...I think Zdenek went harder against other players than CP. This doesn't look damning to me.

And, conversely, if Zdenek is scum, and we accept mastin2's suggestion that CP really is an odd choice for Zdenek to protect - then why didn't Zdenek simply claim to have protected players he gave more consistent townreads on?

The long and short of it: I think Zdenek is town, I think mastin2 is scum, and I think if Zdenek had claimed VT, mastin2 may well have done the same, but had to gamble when Zdenek claimed PR because otherwise mastin2'd likely be the one lynched.

P-edit:

Pretty sure I've seen people in games I'm in talk about soft-claiming vanilla town, though I'll have to do some digging to find the exact games.

The definition of ideal VT play (assuming a town of equal intelligence, at least, it seems to me, really

is

to play so well scum nightkill them instead of the town PRs. Conversely, a bodyguard would do better to protect a PR read rather than another player they don't have a PR on, even if the other player is more likely to be nightkilled (assuming the PR and the VT are somewhat reasonably equal in skill). So a bodyguard

shouldn't

always get NKed N1 with ideal play (since scum won't always target the PR).

-edit: mastin2, why would Zdenek worry about crazypianist suspecting him, if he thought she's cop?

Simple, really. He BS'd the whole thing and had no Cop Read on Crazy. Read Zdenek's posts. He's been suspicious of Crazy the whole time. There's no way you think of a person as being suspicious, while protecting them as a POSSIBLE PR. No way. It's a broken chain of thought which does not connect.

I'm not asking about Zdenek suspecting crazypianist. I'm asking why crazypianist's suspicion of Zdenek makes Zdenek's claim less believable. Which you seem to imply it does by your comment in 712.

P-edit-edit: I thought you wanted Zdenek to claim first because Pine had expressed more suspicion of him than you. If Zdenek had claimed VT and been disbelieved, or made a claim which fell down on its own, you might not have needed to claim at all.

[imaginality]

I knew that if I gave, say, eight hours or so between his claim and my counter-claim, that it'd make my claim look desperate. So, I needed to be around at the time he claimed, specifically so that I'd be around to immediately (rather than effectively posthumously) counter-claim him.

Don't see why counterclaiming immediately gives you townpoints when you were (whether scum or town) considering counterclaiming him before his claim (giving you plenty of time to think up possible counterclaims). If his claim came out of the blue, unexpectedly, and then you counterclaimed immediately, that would be worth more. In this you-vs-him and waiting for him to claim situation, it's pretty meh.

[imaginality]

Whether or not you've seen it happen, I fail to see why, if I'm a protective role, and believe another player to be an investigative role, I wouldn't protect them. Now, maybe I might in an OMGUSsy way be less likely to believe in the first place that they're a PR, but if I do believe they are, then there's no reason their suspicion of me should make me less likely to protect them. If anything, it's a bonus, since it confirms me if they investigate me.

*

I disagree that it's better as bodyguard to protect a VT-nightkill over protecting a cop read, if you think the scum might have also picked up on the cop tell. Your VT had better be pretty great to make up for the results you lose out on, if the scum kill the cop.
This is perhaps more of a discussion for MD after the game though.

*

Yeah. Fine.
Translates to "neutral at best".

Not "town". Which you'd expect if someone thought another to be a PR.

The post Zdenek claims to have taken as a cop tell (post 244), crazypianist only posted after Zdenek's iso6. Similarly, he listed crazypianist in his 'top two scumreads' way early in the game, well before post 244.

[imaginality]

As for your no-action and lack of action: redtail896 appears to have flaked sitewide on May 18th, so the no action N2 is believable, but he was active in this game right before and after N1, and gave a bunch of townreads a few days earlier in his iso1. I really struggle to see why he wouldn't have submitted a protection.

Anyhow. I'm off to bed now. Will be good to get others' thoughts on all this.

[imaginality]

EBWOP: I struggle to see why he would have chosen to protect no-one N1.

[imaginality]

Bah. I didn't think the case on Zdenek was going to be enough to get him lynched until it was too late to get away from defending him.

Well played town.

Oh, and I was the one who picked up on that cop breadcrumb originally - but with mastin2 claiming bodyguard I couldn't risk killing Pine last night, since if I was wrong then the real cop could come out with impunity.

[imaginality]

I regret the RL issues that led to me lurking (unintentionally) much of D2 and losing some towncred but the way it went with C-Worl, I don't think things would have gone all that differently if I had been more involved then anyhow.

[imaginality]

Jase was super-town in my view, the towniest player in my eyes for most of the game - I was hoping he'd get some of that 'too townie to be town' suspicion coming his way later on if we left him alive.

DemonHybrid, yep, we killed you because of how well you were playing, especially in contrast to StefanB. It screwed up my hopes of getting StefanB mislynched, and we thought it better to NK you before you had the chance to start making cases against us rather than just reads.

Actually, the replacements in general worked out pretty well for town in this game I think. DemonHybrid on D1, and Setael and mastin2 D3, were all considerably townier than their predecessors (even aside from the lurking/flaking) and came at awkward times. Pine and bvoigt also played well.

Thanks to Powerrox93 for persevering with finding replacements. I enjoyed this game and this group of players.

[imaginality]

Having read the scum QuickTopic, it looks like pure luck that crazypianist1116 was chosen as the one to be blocked – and also Night 2!

Not really pure luck. D1 he fitted with the 'being town but not so much so as to be nightkilled' sort of PR play, which was why I first suggested RBing him. Then before the night ended, I saw that breadcrumb which gave additional reason to go for him.

D2, no-one else had suddenly looked more PR-y, so it made sense to just go for him again.

As for the comments about you N1, from my perspective you had been one of the towniest players during the day. (In fact I was a bit surprised at how much pressure you came under on D3.) A doc with no PR reads would probably protect one of the most useful players, so that's one reason why it made more sense for us to take out DemonHybrid, who'd only just joined but who already looked likely to us to become a big threat if we let him live. Given how badly StefanB had played in that slot, it seemed less likely Demon Hybrid'd be protected.