New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[MrZepher]

Sorry guys, didn't notice that the thread started somehow....

V/LA till Tuesday due to finals madness (it'll be the access. I'll be as active as I can )

On that note:

vote: Quadz08

~~~<3

[MrZepher]

Shhhhh... they don't know that yet....

@Mod: Semi-V/LA due to finals madness.

Did Thor unvote?

Course he didn't. I don't know what you're talking about.

[MrZepher]

I regards to Sub's post, I was actually looking at option number 2 before you posted. nhammen's most recent post came off as scummy for whatever reason. I'll figure out why I didn't like his post soon enough.
The reasoning seems sounds enough for a vote, but if it builds up too quickly I'll get off so Toon can put his word in. I'm interested, but it's still kind of vote madness right now so I'm not going to make a big deal.

Unvote

Vote: Toon

[MrZepher]

I don't like this post. Let's break down what you said.
1) "I have similar thoughts regarding your case against Toon." Parroting? Buddying? Maybe.
2) "This is enhanced because I somehow found one of nhammen's posts scummy, and can't explain why." You need to explain this.
3) "I'll vote, but I'm very hesitant, and would like to give myself a backdoor in case this goes too far." Obvscummy play.

I'm definitely feeling like if Toon flips scum, this is a bus vote. I'll keep this in mind for later.

1. Semi-buddying. I wasn't sure if I was correct in seeing his vote as a distance move, but since somebody else had also seen that it made me more comfortable making a basis on top of that. Make sense? Not intentionally parroting but I get why you think that.
2. Sheeping, unnecessary direction at KoC and Max and it looked like he was just trying to find a reason to keep his sheeped vote where it was.
3. I'm uncomfortable with making votes without cases during RVS, especially since I'm prone to making connections where they don't exist day 1.

I might need to re-read the last couple of pages because I think I missed some things, but I generally have yet to see a reason to take my vote of nhammen.
I'm also inclined to think Thor is town, KoC is misguided town, Amor might be scum, Toon needs to post more but might be scum, Maxous and Sub seem pretty town or very clever scum.
Everyone else is kind of null...

[MrZepher]

Obvious thread reader is obvious....

[MrZepher]

Here I was thinking I'd get to play a game without a player posting mass amounts of walls ._.

[MrZepher]

Actually. SubSith was a townread. Hence scum. So you can vote SubSith.

It this post, sense is made //sarcasm

Mod: Finals are over. I'm no longer V/LA.

[MrZepher]

Hmmmmm I guess I can see where you're suspicion comes from....

[MrZepher]

I think Mastin hates me ._.

In other news:
My biggest scum reads happen to be Sub and Amor

Which now that I think about my vote is still on nhammen...
I'll double check to see if I want to keep it there...

In any case, I'd hate to use the argument "to town to be town" but Sub seems to fall into that argument. Idk. Something about the way he scumhunts doesn't sit well with me.
Silver come off as town, but ridiculous town. There's room for me to be proven wrong though.

I'll post back within the next couple of hours with some things for people to answer.

PRE-EDIT:

I only do walls when I post cases. and I hate it so I avoid it whenever possible.
That won't be the case here. I'm really awkward with placing votes on D1 sorry :\

[MrZepher]

EBWOP:

Not being the case here as in I'm not going to post a wall when I DO have a case...

[MrZepher]

So, based off of my reads so far...
silverbullet999 (2) - Maxous,

SubzeroSith

<--Good wagon.
Amor (2) - nhammen,

Surye

<--Fairly good wagon, but not the best.
Pine (3) – Wraith, jmurph3, DeityKabuto <--This wagon needs to die, believe it or not.
Thor665 (1) – Knight of Cydonia <--Lesser alternative to Amor.
SubzeroSith (2) –

Surye

, silverbullet999, mastin2 <--Winwagon.
Toon Fighter (4) –

SubzeroSith

, Pine, MrZepher, Thor665,

Amor

<--Yes. This wagon DOES need to die, believe it or not. It's not the best wagon.

More or less. (Though, again. Initial reads and analysis might not hold accurate when I look at things in more detail.)

I could have SWORE my vote was on nhammen. Idk why.
I checked The Vote Count AND my ISO when I thought you were lying.

Idk what's wrong with me @-@ sorry. But at least that explains why i wasn't sure why I thought I had my vote on nhammen....

Unvote

Also, why am I scum exactly?

[MrZepher]

Also, why am I scum exactly?

You're not. You just have above-average chances of being scum by the

V

ote

C

ount

A

nalysis. (This is answering jmurph as well about what VCA stands for.)

As much as I'd like to have faith in that, I can't. I could state why, but I would have to cite information from an ongoing game so I can't, sorry.

Zepher, can you explain your suspicions a bit more? I'm really not seeing the SZS case and I'd like someone to lay it out for me.

I can try to the best of my ability. Also, I meant to get something out earlier but I fell asleep, sorry :\

With Sub, the way he approaches his scum-hunting is very nit-picky, and he is very eager to discredit arguments made against him.
At least that's why he's suspect with me. I'm still wary about the other cases on him, but the way he's reacted to them thus far hasn't sat well with me.
(take the interaction with Sub vs Silver for example, and then with Mastin too.)

With Amor, it's mostly gut (Sub has some gut in it as well) BUT I don't like the way you take Thor's "coaching" and Maxous' 122 and blatantly misrep them.
Also the stated reason for you unvote on KoC wasn't good.

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

reads as: This wagon isn't going to kick off. Let's hop onto one that'll probably go through.
Of course this assuming you're scum, which I'm not sure what the likelyhood of that is yet.
Probably somewhat likely at this time and place.

Just as a note, I'm not voting yet because I don't think they need votes on them yet, or at least not from me if that makes sense.

[MrZepher]

I don't know what to say about Subzero's and silverbullet999's conversation, but I can infer that Subzero and silverbullet999 are most likely not scum buddies.

I concur with this statement....

[MrZepher]

I'm attempting but I'm having genuine trouble figuring out what to make of everything. //Confused
I have time tomorrow to devote to a reread so I'll do that in the meantime... (and by tomorrow I apparently mean later today. hmmmm...)

[MrZepher]

Just a quick note, has anyone taken a look at who's currently voting mastin?
No? Then you should take a look. It's interesting.

[MrZepher]

I just think it's interesting how 2 suspected likely scum are currently on the Mastin wagon but

everyone else is still arguing over 50/50 scum/town

The bolded part is why I don't have a vote out.
I can't tell if either is scum. I'm suspect of one of you, but I don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, at least not imo.
I can see what Uite was saying about Silver's ramblings. I can generally make sense of it, once I get past the blabbering troll, but still.

I think there are more scum pushing for a Silver/Sub lynch then other, sense-making lynches.

[MrZepher]

1) Why is Nobody Special likely scum?
2) You think at least one of Silver and Subzero is mafia? Why are'nt you voting or giving any thoughts at all on them then?
3) What "other sense-making lynches?" You stated your suspects it was Subzero and Amor. The latter being mostly gut?

1. This is based off the assumption that him giving basically

shit

bad bad bad reasons to hop onto a wagon/vote Mastin make him scummier than people I can't get a good read on.
2. I have voiced concerns. I'm not sure what to make with the answers. Trust me, I'm working on it; this isn't exactly a position I like being in *grumble grumble*
3. This is true BUT there have been other wagons in the day, and other suspects. I was mostly referring to any wagon that isn't silver/sub.

Also with the Silver wiggling room thing, that was my roundabout way of saying I'm not really sure on my read.
I want to think Silver is town, yes, but there are doubts. Hence why there's room for that to change. Make sense?

Anyways, I'm going to continue my re-read now...

[MrZepher]

Walls of realization thanks to nhammen. You're completely right.
Well for the most part; I think you're misunderstanding a couple things, but I need to change the way I'm approaching this game.

Gimme a bit to make a real post w/ vote.

[MrZepher]

I still think the Sub/Silver wagon is dumb. It looks dumb, the interactions between the two are dumb, I wouldn't suffer to say that the people on the wagon are dumb too but that's mean and I don't believe that. Quite frankly, I have to stretch to think that even Sub is scum at this point, so that's not where my vote is going. Instead,

Vote: Amor

O: Zepher actually commiting to a vote? This game must be going to hell fast.

note: I'm trying to avoid a wall so tell me if you want me to elaborate.

[Predit]
I just saw other posts--relatively game changing posts-- so I'm going to put this up quickly and post my case in a different post.
Early apologies if it's a wall :\

[MrZepher]

Nothing about Thor's case? Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

It wasn't a case, it was one line without even a vote. I didn't think it was really worth a response. Maxous and I had similar observations, so what?

Anyway, we seem to be out of RVS so it's time for a real vote.

Unvote
Vote Knight of Cydonia

Mostly gut, but I don't like his lack of opinions or trying to pass off reading the thread as gathering information.

First off, this was a weak vote. Later your unvote would be weak as well. No good.

His post #6 isn't very good either. It wasn't necessary to point out Thor's post, you know, since you had previously pointed out how scummy Pine looked for going after and obviously jokey line Thor had written previously.

Also, I don't think Thor was coaching with the line I mentioned, but rather using town-cred to entice people onto certain wagons. Thor is basically promising the less active players a free pass if they vote how he wants them to. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make them town, and it seems stupid to leave a huge chunk of players free from investigation. I'm not sure whether this is just bossy town play or active scum manipulation.

WHAT UP EXAGGERATION. I SEE YOU!

Thor -- I just don't think it's a good idea to intentionally ignore the half of the player base who are below the radar right now, or tell people how to escape your suspicion. But your response gives me town vibes, so I think this is just an argument about tactics.

THIS is bad. I find it unreasonable to find somebody scummy for not going after EVERY player.
You know, since you post this right after:

@mastin2: you seem to be trying to slip under the radar easily. Also, your 3 psots so far are bs. No content, a crappy vote with no reasoning, and you want DK to make a big post, but you don't do any.

unvote, vote: mastin

I want more content out of you, fast

"Hey guys, pay me no mind, let's go after the guy who replaced in yesterday for lack of content."

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

ALSO, this was a bad unvote. Wtf. "I'm not going to make KoC work, so I mind as well go after somebody that already has a wagon."

Sigh, we need a better wagon to get today going. I like Amor much better. Vote: Amor Attacks scumhunting because of weak language, when we only currently have weak information in this slow game.

I assume you're referring to my point against Maxous. Posting a list of waffly, easily retractable reads isn't scumhunting, it's filler, and that's not going to make the game any better.

Cut a little at the end that didn't have to do with the post.
Sure it does. It gets people conversing about your reads. READS CHANGE. DUH. IT'S NOT SCUMMY TO LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
Discussion is good for the town.

Post #11 Is fluff basically. There's nothing of relevance in that post. it just looks like content.

Okay, looks like Toon is the best lynch that realistically could happen today.

Unvote
Vote:ToonFighter

Most notable, out of ALL your votes, those made with adequate reasoning and obvious town intent are
ZERO
and counting.

Yeah. You need to be lynched. Sorry. Even if all the rest of my argument is weak, the fact that you STILL have yet to post a vote with even an inkling of town intent SCREAMS scum to me, and I think we gain more from your lynch. Your interaction with DK looks like scum leaving potential for bussing later.

[MrZepher]

Does anyone else have a read on Zephyr? I've got him down as slight town at the moment but the timing of his 'lol, wasn't gonna vote SZ but will vote Amor and...holy cats, a Mason claim!?! Bwuh?" post just leaves a stingy taste in my mouth.

I was working on a post and then i left to do errands. When I preview'd my post when I got back home the mason claim showed up, so I just copied the front end into a new post and put that up as soon as I could.
Can't really help that it happened. I thought I had posted before I left this morning about an upcoming case on somebody.

But from what I can see is that I'm either neutral leaning town or I'm neutral leaning scum.
Unless you're nhammen then I'm just scum.

[MrZepher]

I agree. Mastin's claim has his ups and downs. The scum will most likely have him dead Day 1 knowing he's cop.

Thanks for summing up the last couple of pages nicely. //sarcasm

@Thor
If I recall, Mastin had a town read on Toon.

[MrZepher]

@Thor
I'm fine with a Toon lynch. I don't even think there's need for a justification for his wagon at this point; he's been playing scummy enough it seems.
I get the feeling that he may be just really bad at playing town, but that could just be his fool hardy attempts to hide the fact that's he is, in fact, not town.

What are your reads thus far actually?
You might have posted them somewhere recently already but I'm kind of curious where everyone stands with you.

[MrZepher]

WTF? How is that rolefishing?

Said the same thing actually...

[MrZepher]

KoC:

Why do you think there might be more than one cop?

And can you give some reasoning for your latest vote?

THAT MAYBE. But that's kind of a stretch to call that role fishing.

[MrZepher]

^^^Is it just me or did that seem a little OMGUS?

[MrZepher]

You'll be giving the town a suggestion what to do D3.

Since DK's at L1 do we still wish to discuss more or should I hammer?

[MrZepher]

The fact that DK hasn't been modkilled by now says that he's given the scum a gambit of sorts (if not, then I'm sure you know what I mean).
I think the assumption that one of the people DK claimed were his scum buddies is correct; should we randomly choose the right one then it increases the odds of a mislynch because we believe the obvious WIFOM.

With the Pine counterclaim, I'm inclined to believe he's either scum counterclaiming to put scum into a potentially game boosting gambit situation
or
He's confirmed town, and now at a higher likelihood of being NK'd

[MrZepher]

We can if you keep trying to put town on the chopping block.
Just saying.

[MrZepher]

In regards to Mastin's meta, I think i've noticed this with his town play:

Mastin has a habit of deciding who the scum are and riding with that idea until he's completely proven wrong, so he has a little bit of confirmation bias
And he has a tendency to be a little arrogant with his scum hunting. Which is fine I suppose, but it DOES come off as scummy.

I personally think Mastin is town. I'm not going to take everything with he says with a bit of a healthy skepticism, but he doesn't seem especially scummy.
By all means though, DO read through his games. I don't have the patience to do it myself. I get frustrated reading the games I'm already playing with him.

[MrZepher]

UGH. MASTIN. REALLY?

Also Pine, did you claim previously or was that a claim just now?

I need to reread this game ._.

[MrZepher]

Okay yeah I seriously need to reread then.
I'll do that before I post again.

[MrZepher]

Mastin, I don't get how your VCAs conclude me as scum.
It kind of irks me.

Maxous' hammer bothered me something fierce. It's never beneficial to end town conversation, but I can completely understand why.
Even still. It bothers me.

So have you calculated the math of what would happen if everyone on your scumlist flips town?
(Even I accept the likelihood of at least 1 scum on that list, but I think you'd be relying on that as scum as well.)

DK claimed Surye and Pine to be scum with him and Amor. Amor was obviously going to be on that list, and since Surye has since then flipped town, I wouldn't doubt Pine being town either.
It's in no way a confirmation, but it's a better tell than anything IMO.
NS I think can do with a little benefit of the doubt.
Nhammen is a town read since scum never really give the BoD... not that that's my only reason, but it changed the tone of his posts for me if that makes sense?

Uite is an obvlurker. I think he's the best candidate out of your list, since he'll be least likely to contribute either way.
I still want to think that Silver is town. I'd have to see play outside of the whole sub vs. silver thing. That ridiculousness messed with my reads on both I'm more than positive.

I wouldn't suggest lynching me. If absolutely necessary vig me, but don't end the day with me. Make sense?

I have no idea who the SK could be currently. I would have to finish my re-read.

PREDIT:
I just realized that I'm probably parroting what mastin just said a little bit. I'm not going to bother to change anything right now... way too tired...

[MrZepher]

I don't think it's anti-town to form reads on people before the evidence, so long as you're not following through with them too strongly.
Basically, it's fine as long as it doesn't form the source for confirmation.

Bad vote is bad.

@Jmurph
I never TRIED to confirm anything with Pine. I SPECIFICALLY said it's in NO WAY a confirmation. I was justifying why I would think Pine is town.

Also, how am I buddying with Uite at all? I think he's a perfectly justified lynch (I'm a fan of the lynch all lurkers policy, when applicable, and it's VERY applicable here)
I have a scumread on Uite. I just don't think we have much to lose with lynching him.
But now that I think about it, he's probably not the best candidate out of this, so I DO take that back.
You're vote on me seems kind of silly, but I guess I can see why it's there. It's sort of justified.

Also, a VCA saying that I look town, while is not exactly incorrrect, obviously hasn't taken into account the fact that I basically didn't do anything useful Day 1 until I focused in on Amor.

[MrZepher]

Sorry I haven't posted sooner. I forgot to put that I was going V/LA for Friday evening and all of Saturday.

From what I see right now, it's VERY difficult for scum to manufacture emotion laced post like Silver's. This is in no way a confirmation for me that he's town, but it's what's going to keep me from putting him at L-1.

PINE on the other hand, his 697 seems to be laced with scum intent.

But that's impossible, Mastin! Your reads are flawless.

Can you people start actually reading his posts? YET AGAIN he advocates lynching a Town read and someone he once stuck his neck out for (while lying to Town). And he STILL doesn't explain HOW either of us dying would generate information.

You know whose death would be informative? Mastin's.

A Flip ALWAYS provides information. That's why it's never exactly a bad thing for VT's to be lynched / NK'd (I mean it IS, but you should get what I mean)

He also seems to be ignoring the fact that people's read are allowed to change.

Plus there's a big contradiction. Who sees it? (Protip: look at the last line)

Since I'm disinclined to vote Silver at the time for reasons previously stated, I'll put my vote here for now:

Vote: Pine

[MrZepher]

I don't think there'd be much support for a Toon Fighter lynch currently.
I've already voiced my opinion of a Uite lynch.

[MrZepher]

It might have been Mastin's daycop claim.
But I also recall as such.

Will look into.

[MrZepher]

For future reference, could you keep all of that in one post?

I find it highly unnecessary for 4 posts each containing a short sentence of semi-content.

[MrZepher]

I read Mastin's post as a buddying post.

I'm beginning to favor a Pine lynch. I'm starting to feel like my earlier justification for seeing Pine as town may in fact be wrong.

Shut up Jmurph. >.>

[MrZepher]

Is it me or is it getting harder and harder to see Toon as being town >~<

[MrZepher]

No. Silver is Town.

Someone other than Maxous or Mastin explain to me why we haven't been looking at Maxous lately? I seem to recall some very circumstantial evidence early on giving him some "clear for now" credit, but nothing since. Same goes for Mr. Zepher.

I've been playing close attention to Maxous, and while he does say one or two things that make me question mark, it's not enough for me to redirect my attention. I feel like it would be the same/a similar story for other people.
I'll go back and take a closer look though.

On another note, I have been playing with a Toon Scum, Mastin third party idea.
It would make sense for Mastin to want to keep another source of night kills alive, and then flip his reads to make Toon scum as soon as one or two of us flips town.

It doesn't NOT make sense... Idk. Thoughts by anyone else?

[MrZepher]

I keep forgetting there's a vig >~<

My bad.

Also, Mastin did you remember to calculate scum night kills into your math before?
Because in 3 days if all of you reads are town we're f'd.

[MrZepher]

I say we lynch Pine today and Mastin tomorrow.

[MrZepher]

I say we lynch Pine today and Mastin tomorrow.

I could get behind this.

Pine, if I'm holding a banana, everyone can see it's a banana. You don't have to explain to everyone that it's yellow, it has a peel, and it's a delicious fruit. WE GET IT. IT'S A BANANA.

In much the same way, you're scum. We don't have to explain it. You just ARE.

Please stop saying things that make me want to quote you.

[MrZepher]

It works like a VCA, actually it IS a VCA.

You use it to see who was voting where and at what time. The more colors on one person's vote, the scumier I've found.
Example: Look at the people we know are scum, and compare to the people we know are Town.

It helps get a better idea of who the scum are based off of voting consistencies/inconsistencies.

[MrZepher]

No. It works if you don't use it as a basis for entire cases....
Looks at a certain someone >.>

Besides, no scumhunting tactic is guaranteed to find scum anyways, and it's being willfully ignorant to ignore a viable tool.

[MrZepher]

Lawl did'nt notice that.

Gonna make a choice here...
VOTE: Mr.Zepher

This is through process of elimination to be honest.

:badposting:

What process of elimination? Explain thyself.

[MrZepher]

LOL. Okay so it's completely okay for somebody to just call you town for X amount of posts and then next thing you know there's a vote on the person they just called town.
Right, because that's not scummy at all.

One second while I analyze this VCA

[MrZepher]

"from his posts" is not an explanation. It's half-assing one and hoping no-one calls you on it.
If you're going to call someone scum, you quote posts and point what's scummy out, right?
Do the same if you're going to call someone town.

No. I agree that leaving it at "from his posts" wasn't enough, but generally you

don't

want to spell out precisely why. Often, it comes from picking up on Town PR tells that you hope scum didn't see, and explaining in exacting detail why someone is Town makes them a

target

. Town doesn't do that to Town.

Like I said, in this situation I agree with you. If I were Town going down in flames and about to be mislynched, I'd be doing everything in my power to get my reads out there, especially my strong reads. When I flipped Town, they'd have extra weight and get looked at again.

The fact that Silver isn't doing so is further evidence against him, and throwing out WIFOM-laden statements like that is almost a scumclaim.

What's with the "don't target"?
KoC's attention was on Silver at that time. Explanation please.

Also, thank you for catching on to that. I just want to investigate some things a little further into your claim.

[MrZepher]

No I don't think it's a breadcrumb, I think it's you addressing a PR without being obvious.
I only bring it up because I don't think it was necessary to bold those words OR put emphasis on the word target.

Plus I think you're scum.
So I'm looking into your claim a little bit

[MrZepher]

Hmmm...
I think I'm okay with a Maxous lynch...

Allow me to investigate to confirm this okayness.

unvote

[MrZepher]

I hate you a little bit.

[MrZepher]

Because your votes are terribad and you're playing like scum.

I have NO idea why we don't just lynch you.

[MrZepher]

Is my vote on you?
Have I proclaimed how town you are?

No, so no.

[MrZepher]

Your reasoning for a Zepher lynch is flimsy at best. That would be proper reasoning for a pressure vote, but you didn't specifically question anything.

Besides, what was I supposed to do? Sub was basically confirmed town, and my next best suspicion was Amor.
I'll admit my reasoning was terribad, but it would have been worse if I had put my vote on a townie no?
Besides, I don't think there was enough suspicion on Amor at the point to warrant a bus from any one of his scum buddies.

DK was a different story. Fool was obv scum before the counter claim even happened. (exaggerating a little here, but you get my point)

Well now that Uite's actually contributing he comes off as town.
Pine could be scum, as could Maxous,
I'm not tempted to lynch Silver.
I already said that I'd rather be vig'd than lynched if it comes to that.

I can get behind a Toon lynch after more discussion.

[MrZepher]

On another note, I have been playing with a Toon Scum, Mastin third party idea.
It would make sense for Mastin to want to keep another source of night kills alive, and then flip his reads to make Toon scum as soon as one or two of us flips town.

Is there any reason that you believe Mastin to be third party instead of mafia? And why are you even worrying about third party right now, since if there is a third party, they seem to have been narrowing our suspect list quite nicely so far?

I was only providing options. Also, any scum intention that I CAN find is conducive more towards a third party.
But it's nothing more than speculation at this point, hence why I wouldn't be quite so willing to join a Mastin wagon today unless there's more conclusive evidence.

[MrZepher]

It can make sense that Mastin is an SK trying to disguise himself as a clever vig.
He's smart/insane enough to pull that off, but I wouldn't be so willing to give him the boot yet if he's killing off the suspicious players.
But it helps him just as much to find the Mafia as well.
I'm not sure whether or not blocking him would be the best course of action, considering that if we lynch scum today, the last Mafia will be out for him anyways.

I was willing to forgive the inconsistency with Maxous' vote on me, but it seems like he's going back on things he's said earlier in the game.
I've rarely seen town do that, and i they did it was forgivable.
Now it seems like he's blatantly trying to challenge Mastin's points against him to gain town credibility back.

Looking back at Uite's votecount, Maxous had his vote on relatively easy wagons all day 1.
His Amor vote was relatively short compared to how he pushed his other votes (which was barely at all to be honest), and that seems suspicious.
His hammer on DK came out of nowhere and still seems scummy; hidden behind an actual reason, even though at NO point should you intentionally stop town discussion.

In any case, I'm MrZepher, and I support this wagon.

Unvote
Vote: Maxous

Also, because I KNOW Maxous is going to scream bloody murder about how this case comes AFTER somebody put some heavy pressure on him,
I couldn't get a strong enough case to warrant a vote on you, but with Mastin's points I think I have enough to convince me you're scum.

[MrZepher]

unvote

Time needs to be given before being put at L-1 like that.

[MrZepher]

I'll have to get back on Nhammen.

Idk who would have hammered, but I was uncomfortable leaving Maxous at L-1 without giving him a chance to claim.
Also, I wasn't thinking of Pine's willingness to vote before I voted. It never crossed my mind that he might put him at L-1.

It's not anything in particular, I just want to see what Maxous has to say before he's lynched o.O

[MrZepher]

@Nhammen
It was taking the assumption that he's working to get as many town lynched as possible without giving any indication of a scumbuddy.
The thing that seems more like 3rd party behavior is how willing he is to go after actual mafia.
Going after his buddies at this point in the game is dangerous for Mafia, and I don't see him winning with that course of action.
Especially now considering the attention that Pine and I brought to him.

tl;dr He's willing to throw away a lot of town to find scum, and has a good chance of actually finding Mafia, and that seems less like town behavior, but not mafia aligned.

[MrZepher]

But Mastin is actually clever enough to do that it seems...

Also, Nhammen I think you mean my vote on Maxous, not Mastin.

[MrZepher]

Vote: Maxous

Cool beans.

[MrZepher]

Because he's Mastin scum and probably wants to lynch as many town as possible
previously stated.

The only thing on you is that you have a little bit more suspicion on you than just what Mastin has brought up about our "interaction"

[MrZepher]

A little earlier than what fits into my preferred chain of lynches but I'm okay with this.

Has Mastin for sure claimed and/or do we wish to continue discussion today?
Because if it's cool with everyone to end the day I'll hammer.

[MrZepher]

That's what I thought but I wasn't entirely sure.

A claim is fair. We waited for Maxous. We should wait for Mastin.

[MrZepher]

Check Uite's VCA.
It had all the flips and claims up to that point.

Since then we've only has Maxous claim.

[MrZepher]

16 players, 4 scum means 12 town
assuming no SK means 1:3 scum to town ratio.

WITH an SK that turn it into 5 scum, 11 town, and close to a 1:2 scum:town ratio
Assuming that Pine IS in fact a town RB, then an SK in the setup would make sense.
I doubt we'd need a roleblocker otherwise; it'd be a pretty anti-town role considering we had a cop, and I'm going to assume we have a doc too.

On that same foot, a vig makes sense too, but IDK.
I'm terrible at setup speculation.

I only thought Mastin was an SK because it made sense to me. I have no basis for speculation into an SK otherwise I don't think.
I personally think that should we lynch scum today, the vig should claim tomorrow.
(Also, I realize the question was directed at Pine. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents...)

I feel like there's more I want to say but I'll leave it at that...
hmmmm..

[MrZepher]

You mind pointing out a case there Nham?
You can skip over the Day1 stuff, it's not exactly difficult for me to go back and see what was scummy about my play.

I TOLD YOU. VIG ME. FUCK.
It's a waste of a lynch to lynch town.
At least with a vig it's expected for town to die. We can't afford to myslynch during the day.

[MrZepher]

I believe the vig claim actually.

I still believe that Maxous could be scum.
I think I let myself get distracted from who we should have been lynching.

Vote: Maxous

[MrZepher]

I'm more inclined to think Pine was just being dumb.

I'd rather lynch Maxous, but I can't control the votes of others.
I'm not going to complain with a Pine lynch.

[MrZepher]

The thing with the DK counterclaim is that he could have taken advantage of the fact DK was going to be lynched pretty much no matter what to bus his scum buddy. (probably could have worded that better but I think you get the point)
Also, if Pine is scum, he is more than likely a jailkeeper. I don't think scum can kill a JK target.

I'm not sure about my read on NS.
My gut says he's town so I haven't paid much attention to him really.

[MrZepher]

If you look slightly to the right of what you quoted, I specifically gave the exact reason why.

Thanks for twisting that post though. Scum points have been dispersed to you account.

[MrZepher]

Actually I take that back, that was rather vague. My apologies.

Allow me to regather the thought process that brought me to that conclusion.

[MrZepher]

Ah, right.
It was in line with the idea that Pine could have been bussing DK, in which case I find it more likely that he's a JK as apposed to an RB.
(I thought immediately after reading his claim that it wouldn't be difficult for a scum JK to claim RB.)
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a town jk, or a scum rb.
This coupled with the lack of a vig kill, but that's just what my mind went to first.
It's a weak assumption but I feel like it has its place.

Also, jk rb jk rb. Because I didn't say it enough as it is.

PREDIT:
I never said you were town, and I only said hypothetically if you were scum. Nice try though.
The circular logic in your defense is noted though.

Also, as a side note:
I'm prone to jumping to random and almost irrational conclusions.
Just bear with me when I do that. An explanation or revocation will come shortly after when prompted.

OTHER PREDIT:
I think all efforts aimed at finding the SK should have been vanquished after Mastin flipped town.
If Toon was the SK, he would have been smarter than to claim Vig, as now we have an eye on his kills.
(I.E. he just reduced his chances for winning as SK by a good margin)

[MrZepher]

I usually keep ongoing games off my mind so I don't accidentally use them as evidence.
I won't use it as justification for anything until the game is over, and you'd be wise to do the same.
As such, that point becomes instantly invalid as soon as it was made.

Also, I think pressure has been off of me because I'm more than willing to be vig'd and if our vig dies then I'm fine with being a lynch too if town can afford to lose the VT. I have no problems since I'm pretty sure that there's a lot to gain from my flip, I just don't think it's worth ending the day for it.
Maybe you could be pro-town tonight and not RB mentioned vig.

There are better places for a vote Pine and you know it. Don't start playing like VI town just to look like you're scumhunting.
Start :betterposting: plz

In the meantime, I'm going to see if NS has actually said anything.
My vote won't move from Maxous though.

[MrZepher]

Okay, so.

I don't feel the Max wagon

. I DO, however, feel a Mastin wagon is possible. I'd rather lynch Pine, as he's scummier (if that's possible), but I'll go for Mastin. Okay?

I see NS downplaying a building wagon on a scumbuddy and trying to get the wagon rolling on a threat to scum; we already know Mastin is town so the option of going for Mastin doesn't help him out here.
I say lynch Maxous today, and if Pine is town then he should block NS tonight.
Vig kills his biggest scum read that isn't NS.

No night kill = NS is scum.
Tomorrow lynch is made of great justice.

This assuming Maxous IS in fact scum (which I'm pretty confident he is), but we should reach an alternate plan of action in the off chance he isn't.

[MrZepher]

As town it is my duty to find scum, and I will do so no matter how much suspicion is cast on me.

I don't deny anybody's suspicion.
I just think it'd do better elsewhere.
If you insist on keeping your vote at least examine other suspects while you do so.

@Silver
I'll get one up in the next hour so long as I don't get caught not doing anything at work.

[MrZepher]

EBWOP:
So it may take longer as I'm opting to do an ISO analysis form of case.
70 posts can take a while so expect something around tomorrow night.

[MrZepher]

Deleted for duplicate content and stuff. <3

[MrZepher]

AW FUCK. I CLICKED SUMBIT AND NOT SAVE DRAFT. MOD FIX PL0X.

[MrZepher]

Mod: Can you headshot post 1081? It was content that wasn't meant/ready to be posted yet.

[MrZepher]

Oh well. I cut out a lot of time apparently by ignoring things that didn't really stand out.
Feel free to point anything out.
Also, I'm not going to address his interactions with Mastin in detail, merely point them out, and say that I found them scummy. I'll leave that to your own opinions.

Spoiler: ISO based case on Maxous

#0 Aside from the RVS bandwagoning, I find Maxous' vote to have needless reasoning on what I think was RVS still.
#7 Seems odd to me. Seems like more baseless reasoning.
#14

If we have a Vig (or Sk who wishes to be thought of as such) I will give sloppy kisses for a DK kill.

If somebody vigs or mislynches obvtown DK I will not be amused.
The same applies for Pine.

Protecting now confirmed scum is noted.
#15 When your main read is found most likely town, then switch to your second best read. I find it funny how he went after me for doing the same thing. lulzzzzzz
#16 Wait what? You put generous amounts of suspicion on Toon and then when there's no inclination that anybody's going to wagon right off the bat you vote somebody who you haven't put much interest in, and has at this point flipped scum? Interesting.
#18 Instead of pursuing a lynch in the first place you wait until there's a much greater likelihood of getting the lynch to go through. I would say that you weren't confident in your reads enough to pursue your reads, but the fact that you put your vote back on Toon after specifically saying that it's because he's now more likely to be lynched contradicts this idea.
#22 You've already given plenty of your own reasons why you think TF is scum. Why did you feel the need to ask this question?
#23 The funny thing about saying how you thought DK was town all along is that is looks bad when people look ack and notice you never really gave any reason to think DK was town other than saying he was just town. Your ISO #4 didn't even mention DK at all, which I find suspicious in itself
#26

THIS.

I seriously think this alone should be enough to lynch him. It is NEVER pro-town to stop town discussion, especially when we know that we can end the day with claimed scum. That was SO MANY KINDS OF TERRIBAD and I resent you for it. I almost thought about faking a daykill on you yesterday for that.
#40 If it's seemingly overdone then why not vote him? Or is your reluctance to vote for Silver caused by not wanting to stick yourself that close to a hammer?
#48 Already discussed the contradiction in this concerning how he found me a town read until all the sudden I'm the only person he can vote for.
#55-#64 His interactions with Mastin are scummy in themselves. He never adequately defends himself, and reacts poorly to the thin accusation pressed on him.
#69 I would question his reluctance to pursue a TF lynch further, but this post is adequate and I will not. I still find is suspicious.

I wonder if mafia have a Rolecop and got lucky hitting TF early on, but I don't think that'd make any sense.

Others? You mean like Maxous, NS, and Toon? All of whom I've pushed on before I ever really paid you much attention?

I'm really, really disliking your attempts to discredit my suspicion of you. They scream "Oh shit! Don't pay attention to me, look over there!"

I can't discredit what isn't there Pine. You have no basis for a vote on me, so I'm not going to address it like it's a vote.

[MrZepher]

No I agree entirely.

I didn't have the case up yesterday because I was trying to avoid the ISO analysis wall.
Today I just said fuck it.

Yeah..remember Nobody Special is the (likely)cop clear.

Could you explain this to me a bit? I think I missed something.

[MrZepher]

I legitimately think Toon is a town vig, but we'll see if that opinion changes.
Toon won't be lynched today, and I don't think we should press for it.

Right now the top lynch candidates are myself, Maxous, Pine and NS it seems.

Out of these four, mathematically at least one is scum.
Likely I would say Maxous and/or NS.

@ NobodySpecial and Nhammen
What are your reads and why.
Failure to post adequate reasoning with your reads = vote from me
Failure to reply to this in a timely fashion = vote from me

Aggressive Zephyr is aggressive *be aggressive, b-e aggressive*

[MrZepher]

Uite doesn't seem not town.....
I've had a town read on Silver for awhile, his reactions don't seem like scum reactions to me.

[MrZepher]

Vote for Zepher instead. Bad reaction to pressure is bad.

Mind explaining that a bit? I don't see how I reacted badly to anything you've said/done today.

Ummm lets see.... All these are Nhammen quotes

Except that many games do not contain an SK. So hunting for an SK in these games is counter-productive. Additionally, looking at people that are hunting for SKs is a great way to catch scum. That is what caused me to become suspicious of you and Zepher (well, I was suspicious of Zepher on Day 1, but his play had been improving). We shall see how well this pans out.

The only reason I was ever suspicious of an SK is because Mastin looked like scum, but didn't fit for him to be scum unless he was an SK. The lack of a vig claim up to that point made me wary of a third-party pretending to be town.
I think I may have admitted that the odds were low, but Mastin claiming vig seemed like an escape card.
I only went "SK hunting" because it seemed appropriate at the time. I can say now though that there's no reason to look for one now and I'm starting to hold Pine's pushing the subject against him.

Scum RB occurs very frequently. As for you immediately suspecting that it wouldn't be difficult for a JK to claim RB, was this mainly because of DK's claim, or something else?

I think all of that can be traced back to a lack of active experience in different setups, but we'll see. I don't want to seem like I'm trying to play the noob card, but it's relatively fact... Yes it may have stemmed from DK's claim though.

What does the lack of a vig kill have to do with it? That has already been explained.

Again, I just assume people lie and try to fill in the gaps to see what fits.
I don't use that as a primary way to scum hunt, but I use it to find appropriate ideas.

I think all efforts at finding SK shouldn't have even appeared like this. Its poor play all around.

As I said, I dropped the subject in my mind when Mastin flipped town.

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I have no way of knowing what other people say are coming from ongoing games.
I usually assume they're abiding by some sort of similar moral code or something. Not to be a white knight or anything lol.

Looking at the list, I believe that it is me, NS, and Zepher that have not claimed.

I've sort of claimed if you've read my posts day 3.

Oh right. But he has been playing terribly. Hmmm... how much does this possibility of him being the cop investigation give us? I don't think it counteracts the absolute lack of anything that we have seen from him.

I don't understand how the potential of him being a cop investigation makes him town.... I think it's null information.

KoC investigated someone night 1. We don't know who. But he did give a comment defending NS that some people have taken to be a breadcrumb of this investigation. It is not a sure thing. And I have become leery of giving him a free pass because of this possibility.

Oh. I'm not sure I want to trust information from a dead man. Like, not to be discrediting cop information, it's just given NS's current position, and his ISO being void of any useful content, lurking, and from what I've seen he's been pretty friendly to the scum suspicions thus far.

silverbullet999 - scumread, but is improving. The votepost earlier did not help.
Pine - was a townread until all of the SK hunting. Now is scummy. RB on what is most likely a town vig is bad. Really bad.
MrZepher - Scumread. After seeing his play improve on D1, he fell most of the way off of my scummeter, but he returned upon a D3 reread of DK followed by him starting this whole SK hunting thing.
Nobody Special - Massive scumread if we ignore the possibility of KoC's investigation. I think I have to stop giving him a pass, and act on this.
Uite - Slightly scummy, but less so than any of my other scumreads. Very little useful has come out of him, but I do remember him at least posting some content, unlike NS, so possibly lazy town rather than scum.
Toon Fighter - Has been obvtown all game. I think I may have had some short lived suspicion at some point, but it wore off quickly.
Maxous - Probtown. I can see the case on him, but do not agree.

OK, 4 out of 7 are scumreads... this is not the situation I want to be in.

This seems fair enough.
I would seriously rather lynch Maxous. My gut keeps telling me to pursue it.
NS would be my second choice for today as well.

[MrZepher]

Why do you think NS is mafia anyway? I think I missed it.

Look at his ISO. Look at it. Obviously you haven't.

-Zepher
Thank you for the case and I do agree with the reasoning.
-----------

Post 1087 also rubs me the wrong way. There is absolutely no reason to clear Nobody Special. "Because the cop "hinted" at it" doesn't cut it at all. He easily could have seen him as ObvTown just like Mastin with Toon.

I truly think Pine was just being an idiot (no offense), why would he counterclaim a fake claim by scum? What is the motivation behind that? Yes, I suppose he could have set it up to legitmately do that with his scum buddies I guess but I don't see that as making sense much at all.

I'd actually be happy with a maxous lynch or, even better a nobody special lynch since, literally he's contributed nothing and he mainly lurks like all hell when he's scum.

I'll keep my vote on NS but will be more than happy to switch between the two.

SQUUUAAAAAAAAWWWWWWK. Parrots go squawk right?
(I'm just being a jerk here . There really isn't that much parroting.)

[MrZepher]

We've discussed suspicions of NS throughout the whole game...

I personally haven't done anything but mention him since I
1. Didn't pay attention to him until late day 3
2. Had people focused who had obtained more of my attention

[MrZepher]

People's opinions change.

I came into the day thinking that I would only find a Maxous lynch acceptable.
I can accept an NS lynch as well.

[MrZepher]

Mr. Zepher - how do you go from finding somebody to be likely scum on Day 1 to having a gut town read at the start of Day 4 when you are not paying attention to him?
Furthermore why did you have a gut town read on him at the start of Day 4 when you were paying attention to his posts late Day 3? - his ISO was exactly the same as it is now and it would'nt of taken that long to check.
Also, who is "we" in the "we've discussed suspicions of him throughout the game".

I didn't start paying attention to his presence in game until late day 3. Read through his ISO day 4, and got a scum read.
I suppose saying it was a gut read was a bad way to go about it but oh well. I don't see how that changes anything.
We as in the town. It's been discussed that he's said nothing, I personally didn't pay any attention to it because I was preoccupied with you and Mastin.

Can somebody define to me what a strawman/strawmanning is?

@Pine
He can't be bussing me; for that to happen I would have to be scum.
He's looking for a myslynch most likely.

[MrZepher]

Welcome to Mafia?

[MrZepher]

Well get it back into the game.

There is much to discuss.

NS, I politely request a response to my question sometime soon.

[MrZepher]

Considering there are more votes on you than me, and there's a vote count at the top of the page that says so,
I SERIOUSLY doubt they're just going to blindly sheep you.

Nice try though.

[MrZepher]

Not sure how I've made you my scapegoat.
Any suspicion on you have you've brought on yourself lol.

And I think I've already pointed out that you pretty much don't have a case on me right now.
Mastin and Nhammen are the only two players in this game that ever had substantial cases, and I'm not/wasn't their priority lynch.

Take that as you will, but I have no reason to think that I'll be lynched today.
In the meantime I'll continue to try to find scum while you try to mislynch town.

[MrZepher]

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I have no way of knowing what other people say are coming from ongoing games.
I usually assume they're abiding by some sort of similar moral code or something. Not to be a white knight or anything lol.

I'm just saying, when Pine said hey, you lied, your response wasn't to say it wasn't scummy, or to defend yourself at all. Instead, you said that it didn't matter if you lied because it had to do with an ongoing game. I do not think that it is really a valid defense, as much as you are trying to obey the ongoing game rules.

Okay I see what you're saying now. I mean, you can really take that as you will, there's nothing else that I can say.
If I was I was lying, it was totally just a memory failure on my behalf. There's not going to be a totally valid defense on my behalf on that regard.

I've sort of claimed if you've read my posts day 3.

Right. You said to vig you.

Yeah, but not because I'm scum lol. It's a waste of a day to lynch town. I'm saying that if you seriously think I'm scum, then kill me during the night.
I would say that if you think it's worth it to just get it over with tonight. I don't imagine Toon being around for much longer being a claimed vig and all.

[MrZepher]

unvote
vote: NobodySpecial

I swear to god if he flips town I'm going to kick some shit.

[MrZepher]

@Toon
I've said like 2 or 3 times already that I'm VT, but I think a couple of those were soft soooooo

Mod: I'm V/LA for the next week because I no longer have internet at my house, and I actually have stuff to do at work now.

[MrZepher]

That's all fine and dandy, but can can we lynch somebody who's actually scum?

I've already said I'd like for Maxous to be lynched today, but my vote will stay on NS until he answers my question.

[MrZepher]

Unvote

I was going to post a well thought out, and cleverly worded post on why Pine is an idiot and scum, BUT when I went back to see exactly what it was that Pine is taking as a breadcrumbed cop clear (which there is none btw.) and noticed that I think Nhammen is the only person to disagree with my case.
I mean, it seems weird but I'd like to know where everyone stands on my case with Maxous and why you disagree with it if you do.

This goes for Nhammen too as I don't think I ever inquired as to why you disagreed with my post on Maxous.


PREDIT:
Wtf? When did I accuse you of strawmanning me? I was asking a question!
You also seem to like taking advantage of voting when a lynch seems likely.
There were always bigger fish to fry than NS. If I were scum seeking to either go after town or bus a buddy I could have done that yesterday, and gone through with it a lot more successfully. NS isn't an "Oh well nothing else is working" vote. He's playing like scum, and my scum reads are putting a good deal of effort in defending him. I want to see the flip.

If the chain of events happens that I think is going to happen happens then NS flips scum and I die tonight for various reasons.
If he flips town then we lose 1 town today, and I still die tonight for various reasons.

Note: I started my post about 10 minutes before Maxous even showed up in the thread, I ended up scrapping it and starting over, PLUS I'm currently at work so I'm getting distracted with other things.

@NS
Confirmed scum. I directed a question specifically at you and Nhammen. Nhammen answered. Why don't you read the thread?

OH RIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE FUCKING SCUM I FORGET.

If I die Toon is pretty much fucked for tonight.
Just thought I should point that out.

[MrZepher]

You still skimped out on the question NS.
And yes I ignored that in my head, I'm sorry.

Do you have ANY reason for voting me?
Or are you voting me just for the sake of voting me?
Do you even think I'm scum lol?

Also, I said that if I die, Toon has no chance of surviving tonight.

[MrZepher]

I asked because it popped into my head at the time and I was curious what it meant.
I've never gotten a definite answer and I didn't want to take the time to check the wiki lol.

Oh you mean Pine hasn't actually been defending him?
Your question of the evidence behind NS scum is soft-defending him?

OH WELL PARDON FUCKING ME.
I'M JUST A LOWLY FUCKING JOAT WHO KNOWS THAT KoC DIDN'T FUCKING INVESTIGATE NS.

[MrZepher]

I have 3 actions.
I used 1-shot watcher on NS night 1 because his lack on contribution seemed odd and that was the only investigative role I have.

I wasn't around day 2 if you recall so I no actioned, and I was going to target Maxous last night but then I thought that Toon would vig him, so I no actioned.
I knew that scum would want to get rid of a confirmed town over an iffy Vig claim (the SK drama that happened, which in the end was my fault but it worked out I suppose)

@Pine
WHY THE FUCK WOULD I CLAIM WITH 2 VOTES ON ME?
It didn't look like the wagon would build up so fast so I didn't take any matter on it.

@Toon
I want to avoid claiming my role 100%, but smart town should be able to figure out my other two actions.

[MrZepher]

Dude seriously?
If you'll stop tunneling me for like 20 seconds you'll see that if you lynch me not only do we lose a vig,
But we lose the only other semi-useful protective role we have left, or at least to my knowledge.

I've already explained that with Toon outed he SHOULDN'T make it to LYLO, and that more than likely he'll be night killed before that point, or he be the lynch that takes us into LYLO.

I told you, there was no reason for me to claim. The only "case" was yours and it's pretty transparent.
Maxous' case is paper thin; there's a vote because I don't remember every point at which I've suspected NS?
Toon told me to claim, and in my head I said "no fuck that, scum are going to try to quick wagon me", and while I apparently held it off, it was only for a few more pages :\.

Wait why did I unvote?

Nobody Special

Oh yeah it was because I wanted everyone's opinions on my case on Maxous to see if I could find scum.
I forget that the scum in this game either blatantly ignore what I ask them or they weasel around it.

WHERE THE FUCK IS NHAMMEN.

If anything lynch NS today and let me die tonight, so the vig can get one more night to weed out the scum.

PREDIT:
@Toon
Pine's town. Stop that.
@Pine
Toon's town. Stop that.

@Maxous
I wanted to be vigged since it's not distracting for the town. Make sense? I don't want to be mislynched because that's worse off then getting NK'd. At least this way you guys can see my flip and you'll know that I'm not fucking crazy.
If Toon somehow dies tonight then you can lynch me tomorrow, see my flip, and know that at that point Pine and somebody else is scum (since he's the only claimed roleblocking ability)

@NS
I didn't get anything on you N1. No cops, no roleblocks, no docs, no jailkeeps, no vig shots, nothing.

WHERE THE FUCK IS NHAMMEN.

[MrZepher]

Sorry I flubbed the vote in my last post

VOTE: Nobody Special

[MrZepher]

Watcher means I can only see who visits my target.
I didn't ever see KoC visit him, which was the thing semi-clearing NS.

Toon has had problems with his grammar, I wouldn't doubt that's another one; especially if was all riled up during that post.

[MrZepher]

@silver
Because it's easier then not claiming and having people suspect you for it.
Plus the mafia are probably less likely to NK you, though the above reason is kind of more or less why.

@Toon
I think that seems fair.
Are there any objections

@Pine
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T BLOCK TOON.
LIKE SERIOUSLY. I FUCKING CLAIMED MY ROLE SO HE COULD GET A KILL IN TONIGHT.
Blocking toon is basically claiming Mafia tomorrow.

[MrZepher]

Back and yeah, I beleive Mr.Zepher is mafia.

=> He found NS the scummiest person in the game on Night 1 - enough to target him with an 'investigative role', yet he claims he was'nt "paying attention to NS".
=> He also states a gut town read on NS while NS behaves exactly the same in Day 2 and Day 3 as Day 1 - when he found him suspicious enough to 'investigate'. How would he suddenly become town looking?
=> He says my vote is paper thin because he does'nt remember every point in which he suspected NS. How in the world do you forget someone that you found so scummy, you targeted him with an 'investigative role'.
=> He says he targeted NS with a

watcher

ability because he found him the scummiest. If you are a watcher the last person you target is your suspects. The mafia are not going to night kill thier buddy. The chances are slim mafia would target NS at all. And NS is hardly gonna target himself. The clear town watcher target was the masons.
=> This is way too coincidental that he targeted the

one person

that has a cop-clear on them with the

exact role

in which he says he can show NS is not cop-cleared

And he also softclaimed VT a couple of times earlier in the game under virtually no pressure. He has changed his claim here.

Convenience isn't a scum tell Maxous.
How am I supposed to give a fuck about somebody I didn't ever get a result on?
I've never even had a watcher role, idk how to use a 1-shot watcher correctly. I didn't realize I had probably wasted it until KoC flipped cop.
Turns out it wasn't exactly wasted after all now was it.

You're not even looking at the fact that I never for a second considered the KoC "breadcrumbed result" as accurate or justified. You think I was just going to blatantly go against that? I knew it wasn't justified because I know KoC never visited NS.

Do you even know where I soft claimed Maxous? If you look back can you think of any sort of town motivation I could have for said soft claiming?
Until you can answer both that comment is invalid because I brought it before myself, and I explained why right before you posted.

Are there ANY other reasons why I could be scum? Do I have any potential scum buddies?
You're basing an entire case that I'm scum based off of a read that I had. Sure that's adequate for a pressure vote, but you're going to need to come up with more than just that to justify saying I'm scum.

What you're trying to use against me could be mistakes made just as easily as town than as scum. I'm not perfect dude.

[MrZepher]

You've been looking like a good lynch for a good portion of the day;
Thank Nhammen I think.

@Pine
That sounds like an incredibly well thought out and brilliantly devised plan. //Semi-sarcastic
but yeah that sounds good.

[MrZepher]

Interesting...considering that it IS a pretty reasonable plan for you if the person you're voting for flips scum, that comment just reeks of self-preserving worry and foreknowledge of the flip.

You're starting to do the whole confirmation bias thing that Mastin does when he's convinced somebody's scum.
That's not the case at all, I'm just completely okay with the course of action you guys are taking after we go through with the NS lynch.

@Silver

How am I supposed to give a fuck about somebody I didn't ever get a result on?

Completely missing the point. If somebody is scummy enough for you to investigate you don't randomly decide they are not scummy anymore for no reason.

You're missing the point I'm making. I didn't get any result, as in my suspicion was left virtually unchanged after that night. From that point forward, obviously something must have changed for me to consider NS at town. You're disregarding the fact that I'm allowed to have a change of opinion, just as I'm allowed to change those opinions back.

You're not even looking at the fact that I never for a second considered the KoC "breadcrumbed result" as accurate or justified.

You have just as much reason as scum to dismiss it.

I mean you're right but that isn't the case.

Do you even know where I soft claimed Maxous? If you look back can you think of any sort of town motivation I could have for said soft claiming?

Here yes?
So the town will only lose a VT if you are lynched... yet you claim to be a power role so this and the calls to be vigged make little sense if you were trying to 'prevent mafia from NK you'. Does'nt add up.

Yes it does. Why would I want to draw attention to myself by claiming JOAT? Not only does that distract the town, it keeps me from using my roles as a protective role. I had every right to not claim until I was at L-1. And I only asked to make sure you were actually reading. It sounded an awful lot like you were just repeating what I had told silver/toon earlier.

Are there ANY other reasons why I could be scum? Do I have any potential scum buddies?

I mentioned it in the last big post. Only following through with your suspicions when others in the town agreed.

You've done the exact same thing with your vote. Your hypocrisy here inadvertently also calls you scum. I had my vote on you pretty much the whole day until NS decided he was going to not post content asked of him. I had voiced prior to that that I was okay with an NS lynch, but you were my prime lynch candidate.

As for the scum buddies, why did you ask this? Is my points anyway weaker since I have'nt?

No, I'm saying that it wouldn't make any sense for me to be scum, I have nobody to be scum with.
As town I have several people that I need to work with to succeed.

What you're trying to use against me could be mistakes made just as easily as town than as scum.

I am voting for you because your suspicion of NS is inconsistent and looks fake.

And I'm trying to point out that you're full of shit. You're scum trying to die down NS's wagon so you can keep your partner in the game.

@Silver
Silver, do you notice that the only two people voting for me are the only other prime scum suspects (at the moment at least)?
Does that not seem suspicious to you at all?

[MrZepher]

b]@mod: Can you prod Uite with vengenace before the deadline please?[/b]

What is it you need me so desperately for?

What is your take on this entire situation here.

@Nhammen
No I haven't read the thread on claiming, I've never really read much in Mafia Discussion.
I guess in hindsight that post does seem really bad, but it felt appropriate to say at the time.

As for my case I can kind of see where I was tunneling but there are one or two things I disagree with you on. (#40 mostly, but it was nice to get an opinion from somebody who's close to confirmed town to me)
We can discuss more tomorrow if for some reason I'm still alive, but I'm not going to worry about it now since Max obviously isn't going to be today's lynch and the odds of me surviving the night in any manner are slim.

@Maxous
I didn't fucking know I should have watched the masons. I told you, idfk how to be a good watcher
What do you mean I didn't need to? What am I just supposed to claim JOAT when I feel like I have a likely chance of not being the lynch?
Like seriously I don't get how that is a point against me.

@NS
Shenanigans!
You're town, AND we shouldn't waste a vig on you. Right.
And MY claim's convenient? (You didn't say that I know, but still)
How are we supposed to believe that when you have yet to play like town?

[MrZepher]

That is all Uite has to say? Ugh.

Worried that your mate is going to go down?

Correct.
When I see my mafia buddy under a lot of pressure to be lynched when the town has a vig and a mislynch available, I decide the best strategy is to tie myself as closely as possible to my pal, so when he flips scum I can make sure without a doubt I will be next to be lynched.
Lulz

Anyway I'm not risking a no-lynch. I won't be here tomorrow.

Unvote

VOTE: Nobody Special

WIFOM and who ever said anything about a no lynch?
What kind of reasoning is that?

[MrZepher]

vote:Pine

I don't have a third ability. I tried really hard to draw the night kill by saying I did, and all this WIFOM shenanigans.
Obviously it backfired hard.

Whether or not I AM a JOAT the fact that Pine blocked me KNOWING that I was the only claimed role to be capable of protecting toon while I had also
CLAIMED EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO THAT NIGHT, it absolutely screams scum.

There was ZERO reasoning for town Pine to roleblock me last night, there was ZERO reasoning for Pine to block Toon 2 nights ago.
Pine is scum. I can't deny it any longer, and I regret having denied it earlier.

The other scum is between Uite and Nhammen.
I want both of them to claim. Nhammen isn't a VT lol I'm almost sure of that (just something he said yesterday).

[MrZepher]

I mean
you blocked me
and Maxous died

so obviously I wasn't the one that submitted the kill, and since Maxous flipped town (which I'm eating pretty hard too trust me) it couldn't have been him.
You're enterprising off the fact that NS did in fact flip town, and my Mastin-esque gambit failed. I ate my words, but you're using that as an excuse to have blocked me so I can't have protected Toon.

THAT'S bullshit. There was a reason we had a plan, so that if everything went according to plan, and I had flipped, you would all know who the scum are.
That didn't happen because YOU decided you had a reason to block me, and strayed from the plan we ALL decided we'd go with as a town.Today, I CAN'T be the lynch. It's not conducive to a town wincon.

I'm waiting for Nhammen and Uite to chime in.

We're in LYLO and it's been set up perfectly by scum to get me lynched.
Fucking bullshit.

[MrZepher]

Nobody's going to hammer because you're scum and the last town isn't stupid enough to just end the day this quickly

But I thought I had put an unvote after I realized we were in LYLO (I had thought we were iin MYLO before; I thought I had done it then but I must have erased it. no matter)

UNVOTE:

[MrZepher]

oh fuck me
idk if it's Pine/Nhammen or Silver/Uite

Pine, that doesn't make any sense at all
That would totally overpower scum, remember that I basically only had 2 basic 1-shot abilities

Uite why do you think Nham is the most likely candidate?
And why did you opt to not vote?

[MrZepher]

The lack of this game being ended already (assuming 2 scum) means either i'm scum or pine is scum... so let's think about this further... this also means that at least one of us is probably voting a townie (there is a possibility that there is bussing so both scum could be the lynch candidates.. or both scum could be possibly voting to... ) but at the very least again from the above fact... the most likely scenario is one of the two people with a vote is scum and one of the two people voting is scum... Which is the constant in the equation...

I very much enjoy the illusion of content in this post.

[MrZepher]

I don't have a third ability. I tried really hard to draw the night kill by saying I did, and all this WIFOM shenanigans.
Obviously it backfired hard.

My first post of the day Pine, but I completely understand trying to post from your phone and missing it lol.

Ugh. This game is some bullshit.
CAN THE SCUM JUST CLAIM PLZ? I really don't have the emotional tolerance to deal with this right now.

[MrZepher]

I never claimed what my third ability was.

You've already convinced yourself I'm scum, which had you gone with the plan that we agreed to as a town yesterday,
you would KNOW that I wasn't. You're finding every reason to lynch me even after Toon, Silver, and Uite have found reason not to.
Scum would know that I'm the most obvious mislynch for today.

Fuck this. Pine's scum.

Vote: Pine

Even if you flip town you're still scum.
Have a good day sir.

[MrZepher]

Even if you flip town you're still scum.
Have a good day sir.

This doesn't even make SENSE. When I flip Town, Town will LOSE.

I'm not flailing, I'm not hitting targets of opportunity, not wavering.

We no longer have the luxury of mislynching.

You need to vote Zepher.

He's the only 100% scum out there, which is why I blocked him.

If you say we can't vote you because you're town, and you can make that as an arguable case,
then the fact I've said the same is an arguable case.

I've already explained my intentions in claiming the way I chose to.

[MrZepher]

PROVE WHERE I LIED.

PROVE IT.
You say that I lied and all this ish, but NOTHING to back it up.
Your evidence is questionable at best, and you're using it as justification for the truth and your blatantly anti-town decisions.
THAT'S why you're scum.

Uite has had SO MUCH time to hammer you and end the game, and that fact alone confirms him as town.
At least IMO.

[MrZepher]

Lie #1: Claimed to have three powers, then changed his story to two. Of his three/two powers, only one was ever stated...

Lie #2: ...And that one power that was claimed magically removed the COP CLEAR on Nobody Special, throwing the lynch off of himself and onto a confirmed Townie...who, guess what, flipped Town.

Also, this is the most damning scumslip of the game (BRAND NEW EVIDENCE!):

Uite has had SO MUCH time to hammer you and

end the game

, and that fact alone confirms him as town.

Zepher knows that hammering me will win the game for him and his buddy.

1. I stated exactly what the two were
a watch and a doc protect

2. He was not a confirmed townie

3. Don't strawman me. This was said in the hypothetical that Silver and Uite were the scum team (if you forget, silver also has his vote on you)
I know that hammering you and you being town will end the game, regardless of whether or not I'm the last scum or not.

Again, you're struggling to find adequate evidence to pin me as scum.

[MrZepher]

I claimed 3 once, maybe twice, and I've already stated my reasoning for claiming 3 without actually claiming what the third action was.

I tried really hard to do everything I could to draw the night kill, and I feel like it was very scummy that I was role blocked just in the way the things were supposed to happen.

[MrZepher]

I... don't think I find Pine/Uite to be very logical, but considering Uite's been lurking up a storm all game I'll take a look back.

I mean... I never had any sort of gut indication that Uite could be scum so I've pursued the possibility.

[MrZepher]

Only one of you is town.
I'm leaning towards Uite. Scum Uite would have hammered already.

[MrZepher]

V/LA: Till Monday afternoon

Mod already knows, I''m just letting you all in on the plan.

[MrZepher]

Given that if Uite was scum and Pine was town, Uite would have hammered, Uite can only be scum if Pine is scum. If Uite is town, this leaves three players: Pine, Zepher, and Silver.
Thus, the possible scum combinations are Pine/Uite, Pine/Zepher, Pine/Silver, and Zepher/Silver. I will now do an in-depth reread of each of these four possibilities to determine which are likely and which are not. Note that only one possibility does not contain Pine. Thus it is most likely the case that it is Pine that is scum. However, I would prefer not to vote until completing my analysis.

I like you.
You're cool.

[MrZepher]

You mean flailing because things are going the way he wants/needs him to?

It's becoming more and painful as the day goes by.
Uite needs to hammer nao.

Other scum can be found pending a flip, actually.

[MrZepher]

Back, reading

[MrZepher]

That wasn't a lot....

I... don't think I find Pine/Uite to be very logical, but considering Uite's been lurking up a storm all game I'll take a look back.

I mean... I never had any sort of gut indication that Uite could be scum so I've pursued the possibility.

Liar

@silverbullet999:

Your QT argument is beyond silly. Lay it off.

You mean flailing because things are going the way he wants/needs him to?

It's becoming more and painful as the day goes by.
Uite needs to hammer nao.

Other scum can be found pending a flip, actually.

I don't need to do anything. Very tempted to vote for you now, but I'd rather wait for nhammen's promised wall.

Oh hey... I guess I didn't take into account the scumread I got off your lurking.
You posted shortly after with the jmurph vote which seemed weird... and yeah
No I totally wasn't thinking when I posted that because I had a scumread on you most of day 3?
So yes. I lied, but purely of negligence, not foul intent.

As for Nham's wall...
I think we all are at this point, but I'm more than positive that Nham's the other scum.
Unless it's Silver/Nham?

The scum comes down to Pine/Silver/Nham in my book right now.
Uite can't be scum with a town Pine otherwise he would have hammered for the win already, I forget why I don't think it can be Pine/Uite scum though.
Silver could be bussing, but that's unlikely in this stage, especially since I would be such an easy mislynch.
I would like to read what Nham says, but at the same time I can really only see him as being the last scum...

Also the QT thing is dumb.

[MrZepher]

Ugh I guess that's true.
I forget what brought me to think that...

This game is hurting my brain...

[MrZepher]

I wish I had valuable input but I don't.

I've really said all I feel I can adequately say on my own;
If ya'll have questions I'd be more than happy to answer them.

[MrZepher]

Oh the game ended.

I realized shortly before NS was lynched how totally retarded I was.
I somehow thought my fake claim would work. Oh well.

Also, Uite I told you, but I completely understand why you didn't listen to me.