Newbie Game 1106: Death with a 2x4 (limps to finish line)

[Dr Doom]

Confirm

Gmt +1 (Germany as well)

[Dr Doom]

So, were complete, huh?

[Dr Doom]

Mostly it was just a reason for a random vote. But even without pressure, I still don't really like self-voting; especially in the random voting stage. It doesn't help us at all, whereas random votes for other people get more discussion going and make things more interesting.

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

It is... very important.

I agree! The Cake is

a lie!

delicous and important!

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

[Dr Doom]

Well, it's not guaranteed to generate discussion the way that voting others does.

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

Are you subtly implaying that I give off scumtells or is there just not enough to go on from me here?

[Dr Doom]

Well, it's not guaranteed to generate discussion the way that voting others does.

It worked this time, though

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

Are you subtly implaying that I give off scumtells or is there just not enough to go on from me here?

Not at all. I'm saying that the discussion generated by the self-vote is giving me town vibes on both Korlash and Poiven. They both give me the feeling that they both want discussion as early as possible. You're giving me more of a null tell right now, but that's more because of the lack of information than anything.

Allright then.

Several people still need to speak up, tough:

Quinnster (has voted, but not said anything yet)
Ant (ditto)

Have said zero:
# embit
# mrguy888
# Ant
# Quinnster

[Dr Doom]

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

What do you think about this question? Is Poiven wishy-washy in your Opinion or not?

[Dr Doom]

Okay, just reread the thread and made notes, and the scummiest player so far, in my mind, is Dr. Doom.

Well, it's not guaranteed to generate discussion the way that voting others does.

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

Are you subtly implaying that I give off scumtells or is there just not enough to go on from me here?

It's not the time to worry about your reputation yet, we're just getting started. Instead of worrying about being the tiniest bit suspicious, you should be scumhunting. Your immediate questioning of your status on the scumlist makes me think you're being overcautious already.

I was not worrying about my reputation, I wanted to force Ankamius to leave a definite trail of opinion. Its a good way to say "out of these three people, A and B strike me as town" and then later on deny that you said anything bad about C.

I'm also unclear about your stance on Poiven. In post 47, you seem to stand beside him and call him out in the same post. Are you actually torn on the issue, or are you trying to gain favor in both sides of the argument?

Me thinking that his point is true has nothing to do if I think that he might be scum. If anyone, even the most scummy player says anything that I think is true, I will say so, scummy or not. Your question excludes the middle - the way you phrased it, it (tried to) paints me into a corner of either being with Poiven or not, thus trying to get me caught in a non-existant Contradiction. At least that is what you might have been trying to do. Finger of Suspicion for that.

[Dr Doom]

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

I was just explaining that it's not that huge of a deal to me. If that makes me wishy washy, then sure, but it's just not a huge thing to me.

Hm, okay. It is not a huge thing, yes, but hm... SOmehow, this leaves me with the feeling that this is not a proper defense. Hm.

I want to say that Korlash strikes as town as well, based purely on gut.

[...]

Do you have any opinion on the exchange between Dr Doom, Quinnster, and myself?

This is good posting!

I don't see anything scummy in this post.

I want to say that this is good posting as well (:D ), but all joking aside, it is good that you leave a posttrail early, so your later opinions can be measured agaisnt the early ones.

Poiven and to a larger degree Quinnster are a bit suspicious.

Quinnster because of the excluded middle/false dilemma in his post. And his scum reading is wrong, obviously

Poiven because... I don't know, being a bit wishy washy there, and then the weird defense. But it is not very strong, and will probably evaporate over the course of the game.

[Dr Doom]

My Post got eaten!

Last Night, ehn I posted, I did not see Korlashs Post before me.

[Dr Doom]

Sorry I haven't posted much, I'm not really sure what to say.

Easy - answer the following question honestly and truthfully: Are you scum ?
In all seriousness though, youre doing good so far. Just say what you think about the others, how they interact and who attacks who for what and with what reason. Thta way, if you are town you will be able to find scum, and if you are scum, you leave a trail and we can lynch you
[Seriously: If you are scum, looking Protown lures the town into thinking that you are town and makes them vulnerable to misdirection. For example, if the two missingh guys would now show up and behave a bit scummy, we all would be rather inclined to think that they are scum than any of us, becuase we all said (good) stuff already.]

Here is a link to the only other completed game I have since I returned to the site. I have a second newbie game since then that is still in the works but also includes a self vote.

As for games before my exodus from the site... No, not every game included a self vote but a lot did. But every game recently has.

After I saw your post, I actually used the searchfunction hoping to catch you in a lie, but found two games with a selfvote from you. Apparently you do that.

If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

Actually that's right on the money. I find I read people better when analyzing their attacks, so having them direct their attacks my way always helps out. That's not the biggest reason for said self vote, but if it does happen then I'm not disappointed if you catch my drift.

Wow, that's pretty clever, korlash. But there are other reasons? like what?

Some have already been discussed in the thread, some I'd like to keep private least they be deemed immiscible upon their revelation.

Long story slightly shorter, certain reasons for things, in this case my self vote, cease to exists once I reveal them.

Hm. I would like to know these reasons, but okay. I'll wait.

Sorry I keep double posting, forgot to mention that I had previously voted for mrguy888. I invited him though.

You can always unvote, which means you will vote nobody. What does that mean that you invited him?

UNVOTE:
First of all, Dr. Doom, I must admit that

I was looking for anything scummy at all

, and while I still find your last statement to poiven in that post a bit hyperbolic, I can see now that there is no real contradiction there. Even though I was incorrect, though, I don't regret posting it, as I think everyone should have their turn in the spotlight at this point. Honestly, I don't see anyone really slipping up yet. The conversation between poiven and korlash was interesting, but it amounted to a discussion about play style, not scumminess. I'm really like to see more input (I know this sounds pretty hypocritical right now) from zMuffinMan, and the others who have been slow in starting the game.

(

Emphasis

mine)
What does th bolded part mean? Were you looking for nothing scummy at all, or anything that would look even a tiny bit scummy?
Which post do you mean with "that post"?

Spoiler: This Post?

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

I was just explaining that it's not that huge of a deal to me. If that makes me wishy washy, then sure, but it's just not a huge thing to me.

Hm, okay. It is not a huge thing, yes, but hm... SOmehow, this leaves me with the feeling that this is not a proper defense. Hm.

[...]

Poiven because... I don't know, being a bit wishy washy there, and then the weird defense. But it is not very strong, and will probably evaporate over the course of the game.

What do you mean by "have their turn in the spotlight"?
Who do you think is most probably a town player right now?
I'm getting weird vibes from you right now...

My Post got eaten!

Last Night, ehn I posted, I did not see Korlashs Post before me.

Did it change anything you were going to put in that post? If so, what? Has your opinions on anyone changed in light of this post?

No, not really. Just last Night after I finished my last post and wanted to go to bed, I saw Korlashs Post and made a Quick Reply that said that I did not see his Post, and that one got lost.
Well, it would have probably changed my response on the whole selfvote vs. othervote story, but it would not have been important.

The Lurkers need to speak up!
Have said zero:
# embit
# mrguy888

Why do two people (Ant and Ankamius) vote for embit, but noone for mrguy888? Ant changed his vote from mrguy888 to embit and Ankamius from Ant to embit - a pattern?

[Dr Doom]

a) I was looking for something to grasp onto to start my game. The conversation between Poiven and Korlash seemed to be about game mechanics, and neither was looking scummy to me. So, I grabbed the first contradiction I found and questioned it. Much in the same way you questioned Poiven for being scummy. It was a start-off point, an opinion to begin with, and I have since moved past it.

Ok. I'll have that in mind, but so far all good.

b) There is the post I meant, the one I based my first post against you off of. I find it hyperbolic that you'd throw the "s" word out this early over such a small issue, but I'm willing to believe that you didn't mean it as strongly as my "1am-really-looking-for-something-to-post" self thought you did.

The "s" word? You mean "Scum"? It's just a word. Asking "Sum?" is just a shorthand for me for "I think this is a bit suspicious. Why did you do it?", but stronger, thus hopefully building up more pressure.

c) By "having their turn in the spotlight", I mean that I like to see how people handle pressure. Yours may have been for the most part unfounded, but I always like to see how people react to accusations. It's the people who never get questioned that run away with games, because they never have anything to back up. So yes, I appreciate being in this position right now and being able to explain myself to you.

:Good Post:

d) I believe Korlash to be town, but I also know that he's in a guidance position, so all the helpfulness is something that's actually required of him. I'm not ready to make judgments on anyone else, including you. I was hasty in making m first post, and it has bit me in the ass. At that point, I believed you were acting scummiest, and I still think my points had a shred of validity, but I'm willing to admit that I blew them out of proportion.

[/quote]
Why not make judgements? As long as you can justify your judgements, it is all good. Accusations will always come back to you - by teh accused, by the possible scumpartner, by other people who believe (or know, in case of cops) the accused to be town. Accuse! The more the merrier, as per your point c).

hey everyone, sorry for the inactivity on my part. i was a little intimidated to start talking since i wasn't entirely sure what to say.
anyway, i've read through the thread and hopefully i will be taking a role of a more active contributor from here on in!

Question for Embit, who do you think looks scummy?

you!

mainly because you're:
1) a little quick to point fingers and
2) comes off a little strongly for things that (to me) seem like null-tells. you claim that only scum 'would have reason' to self-vote, and inactivity (as on my part) is 'staying out of the conversation intentionally so they don't give away their roles'.

do you honestly believe this is the case? if only scum would have reason to self-vote, why not vote for korlash, since he therefore must be scum?

What do you mean with "quick to point fingers"? WHat do you mean with "a little quick"? What time would be more acceptable for you?
You say in 2) that Ant finds "selfvoting" and "lurking" to be scummy, but you say that Ant should only vote for Korlash. You have been lurking - a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard. What is so scummy about that?
And why is any of that a null-tell?

To me it is pretty obvious what Ant meant, and, to me, you are overblowing a lot. Why? Are you nervous about getting voted on?

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

At first reading, this seemed totally scummy, but on second reading it was not. Then, it came back to me. This defense seems way too cautious, nearly intimidated.

Unvote

VOTE: Ant
Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

Waiting for an explanation, but I'm with you.

All in all, VOTE: Ant.

[Dr Doom]

First off: Wow, this game is great! Everytime I post, there is a ton more posts being written while I write mine - keep up the activity, folks!
Second:

After reading everything for a second time I have formed a few thoughts for you Ankamius.

The very first discussion about the self voting looks town like because it is got the posts flowing. A more suspicious take on it could be that Korlash and Poiven are scumbuddies who tried to distance themselves in an early dissagreement but others put a wrench in that by contributing. It is unlikely, but if one of them turns up scum this may be worth adding to a list of suspicious behavior.

Another thing I find notable is Dr Doom. I can't tell if his zealous finger pointing is scumhunting or not. He seems to jump at someone new in every post with nothing to back it up. Then he excitedly jumps on the Ant wagon. He seems to be throwing things everywhere and hoping something sticks for a quick lynch.

I am sure it will get pointed out that I am voting for Ant too, so I will just post my explanation as to why that is different in advance. I am voting Ant because he seems very reactionary so I thought putting pressure on him would yield information not a lynch. When I read Dr Doom's post where he votes Ant I get the vibe that he is hoping for a lynch.

All in all, my answering of you question has made me rethink my current vote.

Unvote
Vote: Dr Doom

What do you mean by "He seems to jump at someone new in every post with nothing to back it up", especially the "nothing to back it up" part? We have no concrete evidence, and (at least thats what I hope) I give reasons for everything I do. do you have a specific example?
re: stabs at everybody: Yeah, I'm a bit zealous, but I dont want the day to end early. If someone were at Lynch -1, I would be very cautious and maybe even unvote, although if scum hammers, you have a very clear target for a lunch on day two, ands exchanging twonies for scum 1:1 is a good deal for the town (I'll probably get a lot of Flak for that, but it

is

a good deal - usually, the ratio is way worse, and we are 7 town vs 2 scum).

@jumping on the Bandwagon: I did not see Ankamius Post (Post Nr.101), in which he voted for Ant (Number two on the wagon) until after I posted mine, in which I was vote Number three. From my perspective, only zMuffin was voting for Ant (note that I am very comfortable with having ANt at Lynch - 2 - if two people hammer, the chance to find scum among them is incredibly high, and then we exchanged 1:1 again). Plus it puts a lot on pressure on Ant, and if hes scum, he will hopefully crack. If he is not, he will (hopefully) not, and we can analyse who attacked him for what, and who defended him for what reasons.

@I'm hoping for a lynch
How? With going from 1 vote to 2 (from my perspective) or even with 2 to 3? Read my last post again, where I say that putting pressure on is good. That vote on Ant was just my first firm committment in this game on who I find scummy, and that person at that time was Ant, and he was not even nearly getting lynched at that point. This is a baseless attack, imho.

My top two scummers so far: -Ant, although now getting a newbish vibe
-Ank

[Dr Doom]

Ah, forgot:

Well, I'm off to bed. Won't be able to post until around 3pm EST on weekdays. Sorry if I seem inactive.

You are a very good example of activity. In fact, this whole thread is. Go Us!

[Dr Doom]

I saw embit on before as well (I can't remember the time though). It is kind of wierd that he hasnt posted. Mrguy seems missing in action, though.

unvote

Vote: embit

Question for Embit, who do you think looks scummy?

:good post:

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info

I can always switch back

. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

This comes off as a indecisive, like "I don't care who dies, as long as it is not scum", but this depends on how favourable the reading is.

A lynch vote/pressure vote combo. I just want more info, that's all. Something about him doesn't seem right. But from the other game korlash has played in (the one he put in a link) it seems like he always puts himself out there. (part of his tactic on gathering info I guess)

What is a Lynch/pressure vote combo? Do you want that person to becomelynched, or do you want to put that person under pressure to get more info so you can make a better decision on who to lynch? Note that these two are mutually exclusive - either I have enough info on someone and want to see them dead, or I do not have enough info. There is no combo possible. Your second sentence implies a "I do not have enough info"-type vote.
That you say "Combo" (which is impossible, as I said) in one sentence and "Info" on the other can mean two things:

1) You are new and not used to have these distinctions so clearly.
2) You are scum and want a lynch, but need to disguise your vote. But you can't say "It's a pressure vote" outright, becuase if it turns into a lynch, people will call you out on you silently turning a supposed pressure vote into a lynch.

That post was one of teh reasons why I though "scum" initially.

I wrote this in post 68:
I guess that ankamius and poiven seem like town. I didn't find anything really suspicious yet. Other than korlash's vote for himself. I can't think of a reason to do that unless he's scum. If he were town, what would be the point of voting for himself, to show that he's innocent enough to be able to do so? I don't know, just seems odd.

Korlash already gave reasons for a selfvote that were unscummy.

And I wasn't expecting to be voted, do explain later on muffin man. Am I being suspicious? I already said I was town.

Err, if we hold a poll "Are you town?" we would probably find that we are 100% town in this game, and that Mr. Flay must have blundered on the role PM's (well, maybe we will find that one person said of themselve that they are scum, *cough*Korlash*cough*)

This was in reference to his selfvote, if the gag did not come across on the Internet

So saying:"Hey, I'm town, what more do you want?" is not a defense. Everyone here is suspicious, because 2 out of 9 are definitly scum. Not putting up a proper defense is scummy, in my opinion, but to be fair, muffins attack consisted of "I'm asleep and you are scum". Still waiting for that explanation, MuffinMan!

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But every game seems like a stretch. If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

It was proven that he does this very often; why are you still so suspicious of him?

His hidden reasons for voting for himself. He has already stated that he does it to gather more information by being attacked directly, but for what other reason could it be? Maybe he's just hiding the fact that he's scum by showing how willing he is to vote for himself, even if he does do it almost every game.

If he was a townie, then why even bother causing confusion by voting for himself?

Hm. I'm a bit torn on this one - on the one hand, my analytical side says that this is true - voting for others rather than self is better and thus selfvoting is at least suspicious. On the other hand, Korlash has shown that he does indeed do this often, and at least this game shows that it gets us rather quickly from random voting to serious discussion. As for what his other reasons are - well, I'm okay with korlash keeping them for himself for the time being, but expect that they will be cleared up come day two or three.
However, since Korlash has shown that there are indeed progame (if not protown) reasons to selfvote, a vote based on that seems a bit flimsy. Plus, his hidden reasons could be protown as well - a gambit to catch scum, maybe? While lynching liars is a good thing (imho), I am perfectly okay with town withholding certain pieces of information so it does not fall into scummy hands - we do not start the Game with a full roleclaim, for exactly the same reason.

I'll admit I am pointing fingers very quickly. Everyone seems town, though. Whoever is scum is doing a good job of hiding it. I'm just grasping at straws here.

This just bugs me. Of course the scum is good at hiding - this is an online forum. they will not come out and say "Hey, soon-to-dead-townie, how do you want to die today?". Maybe I'm overthinking, but this just strikes me as something that a townie would never say. Maybe it is because I think it is self-aggrandisement? I dunno.

I'll admit I am pointing fingers very quickly. Everyone seems town, though. Whoever is scum is doing a good job of hiding it. I'm just grasping at straws here.

Who seems most scummy to you? Is it still Korlash?

Honestly... Not any more. He did at first, but I guess the only one left is mrguy.

unvote

vote mrguy888

Hm. Is your basis for your vote: "All players look town, so one of the inactives must be scum"? Thats a bit weak, isn't it?
What made you think that korlash is not scum anymore?

[...]

You never answered my first question.

But no one sticks out at this point.

Please make a list, of all players, ordered by scumminess at this point. If you are lynched and are a townie, we have the opinion of a confirmed innocent poerson to go on. If you are not lynched, we can compare your behavior on day two/three with this list and ask you for reasons of switching/not switcheing etc.

I am a newbie. This is my first game of mafia ever, in person or on the internet.

Thank you. I'm having fun already.

Welcome!

In all seriousness, these questions are the reasons why I voted you. I am very comfortable with you being under pressure, L-2 or L-1 I do not care. However, I would not like you to be lynched at this point - this hinges on how you answer/react to these questions. Can you answer them, please?

[Dr Doom]

Oh, I did not know that a spoiler tag comes out like that - it was meant to be a clickable spoiler, not blacked out text!
It reads: "This was in reference to his selfvote, if the gag did not come across on the Internet"

Plus: What exactly is a "RoleCop"? I just saw it on the list of roles in teh first post, and I have a good idea on what it does, but I would like some explaantion on taht.
Plusplus: Do you have to hit submit twice on this board if don't just hit "Quick Reply"? If yes, thats what ate the post I was referring to (luckily nothing long/important, but still).

[Dr Doom]

My top two scummers so far: -Ant, although now getting a newbish vibe
-Ank

Just because I can't find where you said it, What exactly is the reasoning behind Ank?

Thats because we are posting in parallel. A list of all players, sorted for scumminess, with reasons, is coming soon.

[Dr Doom]

Spoiler: Doom quoting korlash

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

I'm confused on what you're trying to say here. You say that voting for someone else creates discussion, but you won't be able to put pressure on someone when you vote yourself. Isn't it a moot point if they get pressure put on them by someone else?

Theself-vote essentially brought us out of the RVS by itself.

:Good Post:

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

Is this still true?

Spoiler: quoted posts

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

I was just explaining that it's not that huge of a deal to me. If that makes me wishy washy, then sure, but it's just not a huge thing to me.

Also, I would like to correct myself; I didn't random vote for Korlash as I mentioned that I did, but rather for Quinnster, and somehow that slipped through my bad memory. My apologies. So no, it wasn't a basis for a random vote, just something I thought I should point out.

Do you have any opinion on the exchange between Dr Doom, Quinnster, and myself?

:Good Post:
However, it is obvious Pro-town behavior (basically saying "look here, I'm town, look!"), while at the same time putting out no info about oneself - no statement of opinion, nothing. Scum trying to appear protown, while at the same time stirring up inter-town strife and not leaving a trail oneself?

In his next Post, he says that he thinks Poivens post is not scummy/wishy washy.

seems fairly early to be getting reads... Still i have to agree with Poi. I find commenting on something you don't actually think is important to be a town thing. Scum generally have a motive behind their actions and a fear of putting too much out. Like I said, fairly early to make any decisions but it's definitely a good start.

Like you said before: the more discussion, the better. Being a part of an ongoing discussion will add new opinions and ideas, which give other people even more to base their opinions and ideas off of. If people know what my opinions of people are directly, it could help discussion further. This happened when Dr Doom asked a question because of me voicing what I thought of people at that point.

Either way, I'll give the players who haven't posted yet a chance to read through the thread without having a huge clump of discussion to catch up on.

Huh. This post comes as Post#64, minus the first 24 meaningless posts on page 1 makes it the 40th post in this thread with meat in it. It directly follows an exchange between me and Quinnster, so there would be a lot of stuff to comment on. Yet, it is a whole post that essentially says... nothing. It says "More discussion is good, more info is good" [notice the "Hey, I am protown!"-theme again?], then goes on to say that more discussion right now would be bad for the new players, and - most importantly - gives out zero info on Ank's opinion on anyone/anything (except that "Discussion is good, except when it is not"). This bugs me.

My Post got eaten!

Last Night, ehn I posted, I did not see Korlashs Post before me.

Did it change anything you were going to put in that post? If so, what? Has your opinions on anyone changed in light of this post?

Unvote Ant

VOTE: Embit.

Merely a pressure vote. I saw him be online just last night and he hasn't posted. I'm looking forward to his opinions on what has transpired so far and hope this will encourage him to voice them.

Same thing. Behaving obviously protown (which is good, so keep it up!), while omitting giving an attackable opinion on his own. Voting a lurker is - after a random vote - one of the safest votes you can make.

Spoiler: An analysis of Ants posts

ANT

You're changing your position an awful lot. Looking at your ISO, you follow this train.

Vote: mrguy888

Random vote, nothing personal.

I saw embit on before as well (I can't remember the time though). It is kind of wierd that he hasnt posted. Mrguy seems missing in action, though.

unvote

Vote: embit

Question for Embit, who do you think looks scummy?

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

You first vote for Mrguy because he has been inactive until now. Then you switch your vote to embit as soon as I do, because he's been online but hasn't posted. Then you switch your vote to Korlash while saying your vote on embit was a placeholder vote, while also saying you can switch back when more info is gathered.

Your actions have shown so far that you like to point fingers everywhere for any reason at all.

Hm. I think "point fingers everywhere for no reason at all" is a bot strong - yes, Ant has been switchy, but the random vote is indeed a random vote, and after that, he voted once (for embit) and then for Korlash. Ant did give reasons for his votes, although his behavior at that point was fishy, yes, your reasons seem equally flimsy (or rather, "overblown").
[quote="Ank continued]

A lynch vote/pressure vote combo. I just want more info, that's all. Something about him doesn't seem right. But from the other game korlash has played in (the one he put in a link) it seems like he always puts himself out there. (part of his tactic on gathering info I guess)

You have shown that you accept Korlash's reasons for selfvoting in the RVS, but you're still voting him. What strikes you as suspicious now?

--

The below was posted while I was trying to post.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But every game seems like a stretch. If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

It was proven that he does this very often; why are you still so suspicious of him?

His hidden reasons for voting for himself. He has already stated that he does it to gather more information by being attacked directly, but for what other reason could it be? Maybe he's just hiding the fact that he's scum by showing how willing he is to vote for himself, even if he does do it almost every game.

If he was a townie, then why even bother causing confusion by voting for himself?

[/spoiler]

You're changing your position way too much for my taste. VOTE: Ant[/quote]
How is Ant changing positions here, exactly?

3 of Anks next 4 points are more of the same: Behaving obviously protown, but not giving out opinion on oneself. He does, however, restate in the other post, that he thinks Ant is still scummy.
What about teh other Players, Ankamius? I have no Idea what you think about any of the other people, now that everybody made an appereance.

[Dr Doom]

Yay, parallel posting!
@Rolecop: Doh!
@Submit: Ah. Good to know.

[Dr Doom]

EBWOP: Bah, I screwed up my last post! Sorry! Hope everybody can still get what I was trying to say!

[Dr Doom]

I have been voting for Ant since yesterday, and still am.

[Dr Doom]

Spoiler: Dooms Post questioning embit's attack on Ant

What do you mean with "quick to point fingers"? WHat do you mean with "a little quick"? What time would be more acceptable for you?
You say in 2) that Ant finds "selfvoting" and "lurking" to be scummy, but you say that Ant should only vote for Korlash. You have been lurking - a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard. What is so scummy about that?
And why is any of that a null-tell?

To me it is pretty obvious what Ant meant, and, to me, you are overblowing a lot. Why? Are you nervous about getting voted on?

re: quick to point fingers:
i mean accusing without substantial evidence. i'd call that premature and/or quick. "a little" is semantics. votes are pretty heavy expressions of opinion, imho.

re: self-voting vs. lurking:
i think you misunderstood what i meant. i believe

the act

of both self-voting and lurking themselves are null-tells. however, in ant's posts, he suggests that self-voting necessarily implies scum, and lurking implies that the lurkers have something to hide. these are not good reasons for voting someone => he is trying to incriminate someone for bad reasons => scummy.

i did not mean that ant should vote for korlash, it was (i thought, at least) a rhetorical question to underline how silly i felt his line of reasoning was.

Okay. This answers my Questions, although I would like to add that, yes, votes are strong expressions of Opinion, but that is a good thing: This way, the other town has a "proof" of your past opinions, making it hard to just change around a lot (what sum wants to do, as they do not care who gets lynched as long as its not them, basically).

from your statement:

a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard

you seem to believe that Ant is a newbie, is that the case?

Yes. But how does that connect to the Part you quoted from me?

I am a newbie. This is my first game of mafia ever, in person or on the internet.

welcome to the wonderful world of mafia then.

ebwop

: and my question was whether DD believed that Ant was newb town as opposed to newb scum. i didn't make that clear in my previous post hooha (because for some reason in my mind, being new and being scum were mutually exclusive!!!)

Huh? I dont get that at all. Exüplain, please.

Embit, you have 5 Posts to your name, including confirmation, so you need to speak up. I have no idea who/what you are, and in my opinion (contrary to what you said), lurking is a scumtell, because lurkers can try and just "surf by". They do not leave a papertrail, they dont have a history, nothing.

[Dr Doom]

Spoiler: correctly aligned part of Dooms Post

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

I'm confused on what you're trying to say here. You say that voting for someone else creates discussion, but you won't be able to put pressure on someone when you vote yourself. Isn't it a moot point if they get pressure put on them by someone else?

Theself-vote essentially brought us out of the RVS by itself.

:Good Post:

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

Is this still true?

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

I was just explaining that it's not that huge of a deal to me. If that makes me wishy washy, then sure, but it's just not a huge thing to me.

Also, I would like to correct myself; I didn't random vote for Korlash as I mentioned that I did, but rather for Quinnster, and somehow that slipped through my bad memory. My apologies. So no, it wasn't a basis for a random vote, just something I thought I should point out.

Do you have any opinion on the exchange between Dr Doom, Quinnster, and myself?

:Good Post:
However, it is obvious Pro-town behavior (basically saying "look here, I'm town, look!"), while at the same time putting out no info about oneself - no statement of opinion, nothing. Scum trying to appear protown, while at the same time stirring up inter-town strife and not leaving a trail oneself?

In his next Post, he says that he thinks Poivens post is not scummy/wishy washy.

seems fairly early to be getting reads... Still i have to agree with Poi. I find commenting on something you don't actually think is important to be a town thing. Scum generally have a motive behind their actions and a fear of putting too much out. Like I said, fairly early to make any decisions but it's definitely a good start.

Like you said before: the more discussion, the better. Being a part of an ongoing discussion will add new opinions and ideas, which give other people even more to base their opinions and ideas off of. If people know what my opinions of people are directly, it could help discussion further. This happened when Dr Doom asked a question because of me voicing what I thought of people at that point.

Either way, I'll give the players who haven't posted yet a chance to read through the thread without having a huge clump of discussion to catch up on.

Huh. This post comes as Post#64, minus the first 24 meaningless posts on page 1 makes it the 40th post in this thread with meat in it. It directly follows an exchange between me and Quinnster, so there would be a lot of stuff to comment on. Yet, it is a whole post that essentially says... nothing. It says "More discussion is good, more info is good" [notice the "Hey, I am protown!"-theme again?], then goes on to say that more discussion right now would be bad for the new players, and - most importantly - gives out zero info on Ank's opinion on anyone/anything (except that "Discussion is good, except when it is not"). This bugs me.

My Post got eaten!

Last Night, ehn I posted, I did not see Korlashs Post before me.

Did it change anything you were going to put in that post? If so, what? Has your opinions on anyone changed in light of this post?

Unvote Ant

VOTE: Embit.

Merely a pressure vote. I saw him be online just last night and he hasn't posted. I'm looking forward to his opinions on what has transpired so far and hope this will encourage him to voice them.

Same thing. Behaving obviously protown (which is good, so keep it up!), while omitting giving an attackable opinion on his own. Voting a lurker is - after a random vote - one of the safest votes you can make.

ANT

You're changing your position an awful lot. Looking at your ISO, you follow this train.

Vote: mrguy888

Random vote, nothing personal.

I saw embit on before as well (I can't remember the time though). It is kind of wierd that he hasnt posted. Mrguy seems missing in action, though.

unvote

Vote: embit

Question for Embit, who do you think looks scummy?

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

You first vote for Mrguy because he has been inactive until now. Then you switch your vote to embit as soon as I do, because he's been online but hasn't posted. Then you switch your vote to Korlash while saying your vote on embit was a placeholder vote, while also saying you can switch back when more info is gathered.

Your actions have shown so far that you like to point fingers everywhere for any reason at all.

Hm. I think "point fingers everywhere for no reason at all" is a bot strong - yes, Ant has been switchy, but the random vote is indeed a random vote, and after that, he voted once (for embit) and then for Korlash. Ant did give reasons for his votes, although his behavior at that point was fishy, yes, your reasons seem equally flimsy (or rather, "overblown").

A lynch vote/pressure vote combo. I just want more info, that's all. Something about him doesn't seem right. But from the other game korlash has played in (the one he put in a link) it seems like he always puts himself out there. (part of his tactic on gathering info I guess)

You have shown that you accept Korlash's reasons for selfvoting in the RVS, but you're still voting him. What strikes you as suspicious now?

--

The below was posted while I was trying to post.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But every game seems like a stretch. If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

It was proven that he does this very often; why are you still so suspicious of him?

His hidden reasons for voting for himself. He has already stated that he does it to gather more information by being attacked directly, but for what other reason could it be? Maybe he's just hiding the fact that he's scum by showing how willing he is to vote for himself, even if he does do it almost every game.

If he was a townie, then why even bother causing confusion by voting for himself?

You're changing your position way too much for my taste. VOTE: Ant

How is Ant changing positions here, exactly?

3 of Anks next 4 points are more of the same: Behaving obviously protown, but not giving out opinion on oneself. He does, however, restate in the other post, that he thinks Ant is still scummy.
What about teh other Players, Ankamius? I have no Idea what you think about any of the other people, now that everybody made an appereance.

[Dr Doom]

@jumping on the Bandwagon: I did not see Ankamius Post (Post Nr.101), in which he voted for Ant (Number two on the wagon) until after I posted mine, in which I was vote Number three. From my perspective, only zMuffin was voting for Ant (note that I am very comfortable with having ANt at Lynch - 2 - if two people hammer, the chance to find scum among them is incredibly high, and then we exchanged 1:1 again). Plus it puts a lot on pressure on Ant, and if hes scum, he will hopefully crack. If he is not, he will (hopefully) not, and we can analyse who attacked him for what, and who defended him for what reasons.

So you voted someone without checking the votes already on him... I certainly hope you don't think that's an excuse? I also feel the urge to point out it wouldn't be a 1:1, it would be a potential 3:1, but that's semantics I suppose.

Err, I was not aware just how much activity was going on, so no, I did indeed not check if there was a new post between me starting to post and hitting submit. In the last game(s) I was in (before the migration, way back in 2007?, and I dont have the Login anymore, so I have a new account now), there was a lot less activity than in this game. From now on, I'll double check, however (and everybody should!).
How would that be 3:1?

My top two scummers so far: -Ant, although now getting a newbish vibe
-Ank

Just because I can't find where you said it, What exactly is the reasoning behind Ank?

Just got posted.

[Dr Doom]

I think Ant is being very flighty. It is probably excitement/nerves because it is your first game (I feel that way at least) or it could be because you are scum. It could be both.

I am going to

vote Ant

because I think that is the best way to get information at this time.

You need to ask questions in order to get information. Just voting will not helpyou at all there.

After reading everything for a second time I have formed a few thoughts for you Ankamius.

The very first discussion about the self voting looks town like because it is got the posts flowing. A more suspicious take on it could be that Korlash and Poiven are scumbuddies who tried to distance themselves in an early dissagreement but others put a wrench in that by contributing. It is unlikely, but if one of them turns up scum this may be worth adding to a list of suspicious behavior.

Good thinking, although this is very unlikely. I don't think the mafia had a chance to talk to each other yet, so it is unlikely that they will act in accordance to a grand scheme.

Another thing I find notable is Dr Doom. I can't tell if his zealous finger pointing is scumhunting or not. He seems to jump at someone new in every post with nothing to back it up. Then he excitedly jumps on the Ant wagon. He seems to be throwing things everywhere and hoping something sticks for a quick lynch.

I am sure it will get pointed out that I am voting for Ant too, so I will just post my explanation as to why that is different in advance. I am voting Ant because he seems very reactionary so I thought putting pressure on him would yield information not a lynch. When I read Dr Doom's post where he votes Ant I get the vibe that he is hoping for a lynch.

All in all, my answering of you question has made me rethink my current vote.

Unvote
Vote: Dr Doom

What do you mean by "He seems to jump at someone new in every post with nothing to back it up", especially the "nothing to back it up" part? We have no concrete evidence, and (at least thats what I hope) I give reasons for everything I do. do you have a specific example?

@I'm hoping for a lynch
How? With going from 1 vote to 2 (from my perspective) or even with 2 to 3? Read my last post again, where I say that putting pressure on is good. That vote on Ant was just my first firm committment in this game on who I find scummy, and that person at that time was Ant, and he was not even nearly getting lynched at that point. This is a baseless attack, imho.

Still waiting for answers on these.

Speak up! A lot! You have two posts with substance to your name, which is basically nothing. What do you think about the other players? Can you rank them in order of scumminess?

[Dr Doom]

@Poiven:
The whole exchange between Poiven and Korlash send off Town vibes from both. It launched us from Random voting to serious discussion, so I guess the self vote worked. Poiven answered other peoples questions very well. Korlash was not attacked as much as you would expect, but I think that's due to the point that noone tried to make a case out of a random-voting-"special snowflake"-schtick.

Spoiler: Poiven interrogates Ant on Ants vote on korlash

Sorry I haven't posted much, I'm not really sure what to say.

What do you think when you read the posts? Do you think anyone sticks out as probably scum, possibly scum, or probably town?

I guess that ankamius and poiven seem like town. I didn't find anything really suspicious yet. Other than korlash's vote for himself. I can't think of a reason to do that unless he's scum. If he were town, what would be the point of voting for himself, to show that he's innocent enough to be able to do so? I don't know, just seems odd.

What do you think of Korlash's claim that he random votes himself every game?

I'll be honest, I had to look the word up; I didn't know it and found it confusing.

As to the second half of your post, I'm not going to say I completely understand your reasoning, but I suppose I will learn in time.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

Curious, why the vote on Korlash? Is this a random vote? A pressure vote? A lynch vote?

If you just want info, I would sooner call it a pressure vote than a lynch vote/pressure vote combo.

Have you mentioned his scumminess before? What are you basing this off of? It just seems very out of the blue to me.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But every game seems like a stretch. If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

It was proven that he does this very often; why are you still so suspicious of him?

Sorry, I posted that before reading korlash's new post, I thought it went through but it didn't. I realize the faults in my logic, though. I'm just confusing myself though.

I'll just keep my vote and see what happens.

Here's a question korlash: do you think I'm lying about my claim? Do you believe I am scum?

Sorry, missed this post before posting my last.

This seems a little off to me.

Ant, you seem very suspicious to me.

However, I'd very much like to see what zMuffinMan has to say about you before I put you at L-1.

In the meantime, UNVOTE: Quinnster

All good posting, but like Ank, I know nothing about Poiven, except that he suspects Ant. What do you think about other players, for example me?

Spoiler: Korlash's comment on Poi

Poi

- I have to take back what I said earlier. I don't actually think he was discussing something he felt was unimportant, at least not at the time. Forgetting where his vote is is never a town thing, but I don't put a lot of scope in things like that involving random votes. He seems to simply be following along with the game from there, seemingly picking and choosing what to comment on. I have to admit it certainly looks like a more user friendly playstyle then my own, but at the same time it seems like he is missing out on a lot of the going-ons. It wouldn't be as big a deal for me if it wasn't for the fact he too has a "what do you think of the others" post along with a "twiddles thumbs" post. It just begs the question, why waste time literally holding off posting when you could be taking that time to look into others. The comment about putting him at L-1... eh, really don't want to try and read into that one. I'm slightly leaning town on him, probably just because that's how I came into this read, but I'm getting some weird vibes from him so I have to at least put him in the neutral block.

As you've probably guessed, this is my first game on MafiaScum. In other games that I have played, self-voting is really looked down upon, which is why I brought it up. I also read a couple threads here and it was brought up as an issue in another game (however, the person was under pressure, so I see how that was a different situation). So it was kind of important at first, yes; but seeing as apparently it's not seen as quite such a bad thing here in a random vote situation (random voting is also something the other forum didn't have, so I'm not very familiar with it; luckily reading through other threads I saw the concept, but I've never done it before) I was okay with calling it off as playing style. No big deal.

As to forgetting the vote; the only reason I had forgotten about it was because I had mentioned Korlash's self vote in the same post as I random voted Quinnster, and I do tend to have a bad memory; it stuck out in my mind as me using Korlash's self vote as a reason for a random vote, which I said a couple times. I corrected myself because I noticed it after seeing the vote count, instead of letting my error just sit there to possibly be found by someone else. Saying you forgot after the fact can make for a really sticky situation, even if you're telling the truth.

Picking and choosing what to comment on, well, of course. It's not like I can comment on every single thing that happens in this game. It doesn't mean I'm not picking up on everything that's going on, or that I'm not reading everything. I comment on what I feel should be commented on. Isn't that normal?

Well, maybe you do not have to comment on everything, but you only commented on korlashs selfvote and on Ant, but nothing else. Quinns attack and vote on me, the people voting for Ant beside you, etc... - no comment on any of that from you so far.

The "what do you think of the others" post was to someone who said they didn't know what to post. I don't know what's suspicious about that. The *Twiddles thumbs* post was because I (as well as a few others) was waiting on zMuffinMan's explanation, and didn't really have anything to say at that point except that I was waiting; a point that Quinnster had also made, albeit with words, in the post before mine. Everything that I felt should have been said had been said, at least from me, so it was just a waiting game for zMuffinMan. To be honest I feel like even though you're not calling me very scummy, putting a scum spin on these posts is slightly suspicious to me.

As to the comment about L-1, which someone else also mentioned. Here is the post in question:

Ant, you seem very suspicious to me.

However, I'd very much like to see what zMuffinMan has to say about you before I put you at L-1.

In the meantime, UNVOTE: Quinnster

Now, there are two different possible interpretations of that middle line, and it depends on the intonation of the spoken sentence. There is the interpretation of "after zMuffinMan posts, I will put you at L-1," which is how it seems to be being interpreted, and there is "I don't want to put you at L-1 right now, but I might after I see what zMuffinMan has to say." With zMuffinMan's post, I had expected some type of very strong evidence against Ant, and, in light of said evidence, would have most likely put Ant at L-1. I wasn't saying that I was planning to do it as soon as zMuffinMan spoke.

I'll post my own breakdown soon.

Hm. I do not think that Korlash is reading you very unfavoritable. In fact, he says "eh, really don't want to try and read into that one." and "I'm slightly leaning town on him" - how can you interpret that in the way you said?

The "what do you think of the others" post was to someone who said they didn't know what to post.

Exactly! If you twiddle thumbs, why not post meaningful content instead? [<- this what I think Korlash was trying to say - while I agree with him in principle on that point, I would never have called out anyone on a *twiddles thumb* post]
We crossposted! Yay! Before I saw your Analysis, I wanted to say: Post more! But now you have done! Yay! More to read!
Whoa, this is taking FOREVER!

[Dr Doom]

A random vote to start us off. MF Doom is cooler than Dr. Doom.

Who is MF Doom? And to say it with the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox:"If there's anything cooler than me around, I want it caught and shot now."
First of all, you have 3 Posts with content to your Name. Not enough at all.

Spoiler:

Mostly it was just a reason for a random vote. But even without pressure, I still don't really like self-voting; especially in the random voting stage. It doesn't help us at all, whereas random votes for other people get more discussion going and make things more interesting.

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

It is... very important.

I agree! The Cake is

a lie!

delicous and important!

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

a) I was looking for something to grasp onto to start my game. The conversation between Poiven and Korlash seemed to be about game mechanics, and neither was looking scummy to me. So, I grabbed the first contradiction I found and questioned it. Much in the same way you questioned Poiven for being scummy. It was a start-off point, an opinion to begin with, and I have since moved past it.

Okay. Hm. Something about "and I have since moved past it." is wierd, but I can't pinpoint it. However, he did unvote me before posting that, so yeah.
[quote="Quinnster cont]
b) There is the post I meant, the one I based my first post against you off of. I find it hyperbolic that you'd throw the "s" word out this early over such a small issue, but I'm willing to believe that you didn't mean it as strongly as my "1am-really-looking-for-something-to-post" self thought you did.

c) By "having their turn in the spotlight", I mean that I like to see how people handle pressure. Yours may have been for the most part unfounded, but I always like to see how people react to accusations. It's the people who never get questioned that run away with games, because they never have anything to back up. So yes, I appreciate being in this position right now and being able to explain myself to you.

d) I believe Korlash to be town, but I also know that he's in a guidance position, so all the helpfulness is something that's actually required of him. I'm not ready to make judgments on anyone else, including you. I was hasty in making m first post, and it has bit me in the ass. At that point, I believed you were acting scummiest, and I still think my points had a shred of validity, but I'm willing to admit that I blew them out of proportion.[/quote]
Okay... Hm. Post more, there is like nothing to go on.

[Dr Doom]

Unvote

VOTE: Ant

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

Well?

Apart from that, zMuffinMan participated in the discussion, but said not a lot tangible.

Okay, that is it for now. I will react to the two lists who have me as a rather scummy player (how in the nine Hells did I manage that?) later - I have an Assignment to do right now ><

[Dr Doom]

from your statement:

a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard

you seem to believe that Ant is a newbie, is that the case?

Yes. But how does that connect to the Part you quoted from me?

by saying, 'it is totally acceptable by Ant's standards', you seem to be excusing him for his behaviour. did i read that wrong? regardless, it's kinda irrelevant now.

Not excusing. I wanted to point out that from what you said what Ant said, it would make sense for Ant to vote you. But you were attacking Ant's vote, and I was pointing out that contradiction.
BUT: apparently, you a) did not say what I thought you did about Ant, and b) it was a rethorical question anyhow, so yeah.

ebwop

: and my question was whether DD believed that Ant was newb town as opposed to newb scum. i didn't make that clear in my previous post hooha (because for some reason in my mind, being new and being scum were mutually exclusive!!!)

Huh? I dont get that at all. Exüplain, please.

i made a mistake with my previous post. ebwop = edit by way of post (or something close).
my question should have been, do you believe that ant is a newbie town as opposed to a newbie scum? but since you're voting for him, i assume the answer is the latter.

Not quite. I believe that he is a) new, and b) slightly scummy. Scummy enough that I wanted to put pressure on him to get him to answer to teh questions, make him squirm and see if he breaks. If he breaks - presto, Scum! If he behaves well - good, a player that I believe to be strongly protown.
I do NOT believe that Ant is scum enough to lynch him - we are nowhere near that.

however, one thing i'm

really

confused about is about how you're both defending and attacking Ant in the same breath.

Heh. I am calling out the actions that I think could be scummy, while at the same time doing it to everyone else. If I attack Player A, and Player B attacks the same Player, I am not convinced of B's innocence. And if I think that Player B attacks A for bullshit reasons, I will attack B. I will do that all the time. It is easy for scum to get on bandwagons if noone examines the other players attacks. Maybe it should be withheld until after the peak of pressure for Player A, but if you do it right then, the memory is still fresh.

personally, the most incriminating action that -- i agree with ank -- is that he has been frequently swapping votes. this is wishy-washy behaviour and it is considered a scumtell. i am personally of the camp that it's more of a newbie-tell than anything else at this point in time (unless shown to be otherwise), but you seem to disregard this in post #147.

Well, I had different tells. For me, his change of votes was not too bad, but how he reacted to the other players (embits attack, for example) and how he said his korlash vote was a "pressure/lynch vote combo".

How is Ant changing positions here, exactly?

Do you mean this part of Post 147? I am aware how Ant is changing position sthere, but I wanted to hear something from Ank about it. Maybe he would screw up somehow.

are you telling me that you're voting on him on the sole account of him being:

At first reading, this seemed totally scummy, but on second reading it was not. Then, it came back to me. This defense seems way too cautious, nearly intimidated.

?

No, see my Post 135. When I originally voted for Ant, I had all that in mind, but not in words on paper.

In order of appearance

:

Gir(doom)

- His post 49 certainly does stand out. His follow up to it in 55 does make sense, I certainly see the logic. First player to FoS, I always give scum cred for that one. I want to call him out for his interactions with Poi, but seeing as how I'm getting weird vibes from the dude as well I have to admit I can understand it. He certainly need some backing to his ant vote, specifically by what he meant about "the defense". i'm leaning slightly scum on him for now but I reserve the right to change that based on his explanation for his ant vote.

Okay, I'm "slightly scum", but am the second most scummy player in your List. Only Anka gets a "Small scum vibes.", everybody is neutral or town. Wow, when I saw your list, I thought "What?!", but now its "okay, this does not mean much apparently: Nearly everyone is town/neutral".
@Post 49/55: Well, yeah, I explained that already. Does anyone find something about the posts suspicious?
@First to FoS: Okay, that is a really weak reason, is it? I'm too lazy to use the Searchfunction now (and because I really should do my assignement instead of posting here ), but I bet I can point to a ton of Games were the first FoS comes from town. This is a baseless attack, imho.
@Interaction with Poi: What about it? What parts of it want you to call me out for, and why?
@Defense: Mhm. I wanted to say that Ant was shrinking back from his vote on korlash so quick and hefty, that the vote seemed to lack conviction in the first place. Thats what I wanted to say.
@Backing my Vote for Ant: I did in the meantime.

Individual player analysis:

Dr Doom

: His attacks on me seemed a bit strange. The first, for being wishy-washy, may have held a little water, but what other defense do you want other than "it's really not that important to me?" Would a better defense have been "Good God, you're right, I have been weak! I vote for Korlash and demand everyone follow my lead!"? I also sometimes don't get your "Good post" posts; sometimes they seem sarcastic and sometimes they don't. I feel like you take really small things that people say and somewhat warp the meaning to make it seem scummy, and I don't really like that. I'm getting scummy vibes. (Also, I'm curious, as you're in Germany as well; is English your first language, or is your first language German? Or something else entirely?)

@wishywashy-defense: Errm, I said you are wishy washy, and you said "blah, it was not a huge deal". Err, that is not a proper defense. BUT, since it is truly not a huge deal, I did not expect a huge defense, either. In other words, this a null thingie for me right now.
@What I expected: Nothing and anything. I ask questions, and see how people react. If they blow small things out of proportions, if people contradict each other, if they can be proven to lie, etc... I'm waiting for any of these things. I do not understand your "Good God, ... my lead!" sentence at all.
@Good Post: This is never sarcastic, and always means: "I agree", or "This post is protown, and this post makes the Player look more town in my eyes".
@warping the meaning: Hm. I ask questions. I analyze. A lot, because I'm trying to get a hold on people. And I always try out different readings, to see how people react.
(@First Language: German, but my English is really good from reading English Roleplaying books, being on the internet a lot and having spend a year in Australia).
Schönen Nachmittag noch!

[Dr Doom]

VOTE: Ankamius

Korlash is my shepherd. baaa!

Man, what?

Your vote on Ant got us really interested in what you had to say, and I personally was expecting you to have something pretty good on it to much such a bold move.

How was it a bold move and what were you expecting?

I'm not entirely sure where I hinted that I have damning evidence of any sort, or even a good reason for voting him, so I don't know why anyone was expecting anything from me in that respect.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan's vote on Ant

Unvote

VOTE: Ant

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

It seemed to me (and many others, as far as I could tell) like you had an actual explanation. Not actually having one seemed off.

This. Plus, if you have no reasons for votes, why dont we replace you with a random number generator?

You gave a bit of an explanation. I suppose I had just expecting more because of the way you said it. "Remind me to explain this when I'm awake" sounds like it has an actual good explanation behind it.

It was a bold move because it was a very conspicuous vote for someone mixed with the drama of waiting for an explanation. And in the end it was a little anti-climactic.

Actually, he gave us little to no explanation. I'm behind Poiven on this one.

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake

I'm reminding you now, zMuffster!

Spoiler: Dooms Post

@wishywashy-defense: Errm, I said you are wishy washy, and you said "blah, it was not a huge deal". Err, that is not a proper defense. BUT, since it is truly not a huge deal, I did not expect a huge defense, either. In other words, this a null thingie for me right now.
@What I expected: Nothing and anything. I ask questions, and see how people react. If they blow small things out of proportions, if people contradict each other, if they can be proven to lie, etc... I'm waiting for any of these things. I do not understand your "Good God, ... my lead!" sentence at all.
@Good Post: This is never sarcastic, and always means: "I agree", or "This post is protown, and this post makes the Player look more town in my eyes".
@warping the meaning: Hm. I ask questions. I analyze. A lot, because I'm trying to get a hold on people. And I always try out different readings, to see how people react.
(@First Language: German, but my English is really good from reading English Roleplaying books, being on the internet a lot and having spend a year in Australia).
Schönen Nachmittag noch!

@Defense: How is that not a valid defense? That was how I felt about the issue and I was explaining the reason that I reacted the way I did. This didn't seem that null to you before, why is it all of a sudden now?
@What you expectedThe "Good God" sentence was a rhetorical question; as in, is that what would have been a "legitimate defense?"
@Good Post: Okay, I'll watch out for those.
@Warping the meaning: Well, yes, we do all try to analyze what everyone is saying, but I get the feeling you sometimes put words in people's mouths, or certain spins on things that weren't really there; basically like a tabloid journalist taking things out of context.
@First language: I ask because there are certain slip-ups that people make that, if they aren't native English speakers, could be attributed to that. I haven't seen any that would fit into that category yet, but I'll keep it in mind. Also, I didn't notice at all that English wasn't your native language; und normalerweise fallen mir grammatische Fehler auf, die aus dem Deutschen kommen English is my first language, but I'm also fluent in German, so I normally notice if someone's first language is German, because I'm used to the kind of mistakes they tend to make.

Your posts have made you seem a little bit less scummy, but you're still relatively high on my list. I'm not sure if you're still at the top though.

@Defense: Ah. I see it now. When I first read your post, I did not check if you voted for korlash or not. the post that I was referring to as wishy-washy sounds like someone downplaying a vote, basically saying "I voted, but it is not a big deal, I swear". Thus I was expecting you to justify your vote, but there was not vote to justify at all. I know that you said something like that later in the thread, but I did not make the connection until now.
@Hm. I'm not sure were I have done that. I have not done it intentionally. What I have done is to repeat what was said in form of a question, or that I repeat two different possible readings/meanings of what was said, but (at least in my eyes) I do not just go SUN/BILD style on what was said.
(@Language While I was in Australia, I was hanging out with three guys from Liverpool. After a week or so, I had aquired their accent so much that an english girl with freckles and front teeth and everything would only believe that I was from Germany after I showed her my ID. Plus, I think conversing in German is borderline on the "No Cryptography/Stenography rule", aber, ach was solls )
PS: I'm the highest ranking guy on your scumlist from a few posts back. Why no vote for me?

[Dr Doom]

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

This isn't wishy washy at all yet you start with soft scum accusations.

With what else should I start? Hard accusations? Like I said in the post above this one, I thought this sentence by Poiven was in defence of a vote, when it really wasn't. And if it were to defend a vote, it would be a bit "this is a vote, but it it is not important, just ignore it" while still being a vote. However, it got cleared up (I hope. If not, I will explain again).

I'm also unclear about your stance on Poiven. In post 47, you seem to stand beside him and call him out in the same post. Are you actually torn on the issue, or are you trying to gain favor in both sides of the argument?

Me thinking that his point is true has nothing to do if I think that he might be scum. If anyone, even the most scummy player says anything that I think is true, I will say so, scummy or not. Your question excludes the middle - the way you phrased it, it (tried to) paints me into a corner of either being with Poiven or not, thus trying to get me caught in a non-existant Contradiction. At least that is what you might have been trying to do. Finger of Suspicion for that.

You avoid a question that if you have nothing to hide should be an easy question to answer. You get a bit defensive and redirect the suspicion. This is a bit suspicious to me.

Im sorry that I seemed to avoid the question. At that time, I was getting mild scum vibes from Poiven due to the wishy washy thing (which was really a non-issue, but I was not aware of it), and at the same time I agreed with him that a self vote is worse than an other vote, although by now I see the advantages of the selfvote in the early stages.
@Misdirection I honestly felt that the way the question was worded was misleading - like "either you are against Poiven or with him", when it was a bit more complex in reality.

I may have been jumping at shadows with the vibe that you were hoping for a lynch but I still feel it is something worth noting for the future. I got this vibe because you were casting suspicion on to everyone and then as soon as others starting making a bandwagon you jumped on with the reason that he said something that you think may or may not have been scummy or overly cautious.

@Suspicion at everyone Why should anyone be spared? Everyone could be scum, so I try to highlight everything I see. The more Information, the better.
@Bandwagoning casting the second vote on someone (as I was not aware of ankamius vote due to doubleposting).
[I just noticed: Ankamius voted randomly for Ant, then voted embit, the zmuffin voted and then ank and I crossposted]
The whole purpose of a bandwagon is to get someone under pressure, to see how they hold up. You are not building pressure with two votes.
Plus, and this is really odd, you just jumped on board of the wagon in Post # 127, poutting on the 3rd vote, after zmuffin unvoted.
All in all, I am still standing by my Ant vote - although he seems to be more new/nervous than scummy, he could be a new scum and thus needs to come under pressure as well. Plus, it's very nice to see who gets on a wagon, hops off, when and how (and why!). So for me, there is nothing scummy there at all.

It struck me as a bit opportunistic so I made that known.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.
Unvote embit
Vote Korlash

This comes off as a indecisive, like "I don't care who dies, as long as it is not scum", but this depends on how favourable the reading is.

This bothers me. To me it seem that you are taking null tells and trying to make them seems scummy. This is not even close to what is said. It is not that I think Ant is town or scum, I just think you are pushing really hard without reason.

"I can always switch back" sounds to me like: "I don't really think that my current vote-target is scum(my), so I might as well switch back to you", which is indecisive and could be motivated by "I dont care who I vote for".
Do you think that the mafia is going to come out and say:"Hey everybody, lets lynch someone who is not me or my partner, and call it a night, so we can kill someone"? Of course you have to read between the lines! Thats what I did.

[Dr Doom]

Ankamius – I really must commend your case against Ant, which was built with solid evidence and reasoning. Besides that, you ask a lot of questions, which really helps us move forward. Occasionally, when reading you in ISO, I was inclined to want you to answer instead of asking at times, but the thorough case against Ant excuses that. I find you quite fairly pro-town.

What do you think of my arguments in Post # 147?
I think ank could be scum by trying to appear protown with asking questions and stuff, but not putting out his own opinions.

Dr. Doom – Seems to start with gut reads sometimes, but then proceeds to back them all up with evidence, which I really appreciate. My one bone of contention is that Poiven really had to need to defend himself against you as for being “wishy-washy”, he explained in almost EVERY post that he didn't find Korlash's self-vote scummy, but was more interested in how it can be useful. I'm also pretty impressed with how you put yourself out there as a target by providing evidence and being very clear in your opinions. You're ballsy, good sir, and you refuse to blend into the background. I do think you could afford to be more concise at times, but that's your playing style, not your play. Null for now because of the treatment of Poiven near the beginning of the game.

I'm a firm believer in "Everybody, speak up all the time". If I get lynched/Nightkilled/Investigated by a Cop or whatever, there will be a Volume of Information left behind by a (then) confirmed Innocent, aka someone who has no reason to lie. Plus, it makes me accountable: I can back up everything I say (I hope), I can back up all my votes, and I can be compared against my past record for all town to see.
For example, at the moment I think of Ant less and less as scum, and more and more as new. Hopefully, when I will switch my vote, people will ask me about it and give me a hard time. While that hurts me a bit, it is actually a good thing, because I will answer good, and they willmove on, and we have ensured that noone can slip by.

There is more to say about your post, but I don't have time right now. Will post tomorrow or something.

[Dr Doom]

I'm sorry, I didn't even notice that. I should have payed closer attention to that.

I don't want to see Ant hammered right now. We do still have a lot of daylight to burn and I'd like to see more discussion before we hammer anybody. There are still quite a few people who haven't said much and I'd like to hear from them.

Thank you for pointing that out, mrguy888.

If you dont want ANt to be lynched, why not unvote when hes on L-1?

(Now, hes on L-2, so you dont need to unvote anymore)

[Dr Doom]

Oh, and I want to see more discussion, too. especially from the guys who have not contributed much yet.

[Dr Doom]

Jeesus!
Okay, I will try not to textwall in the future. I have no time, so just a couple of quick ones:

1. I dont think zmuffin is scum - he was voting me, then Poiven and Korlash placed me high on their scum lists and korlash said "lets tyr to bandwagon Doc Doom", and then immediately after, zmuffin changes his vote. If he were scum, why not keep on the cool wagon that could have been formed?

2. Ant is probably town. New town, but town.

3. mrguy888 is topranking scummer in my book right now. I'm gonna vote him. Note that this is not just a pressure Vote - there is lots already coming out of him, and lots of that is damming in my eyes. If we were on a deadline, I would be happy with seeing him as the Lynchee, but as it is, he has time to post more. I'm gonna post a detailed attack/case on him later, but not today, so probably tomorrow.

4. Scummer number two is either Ankamius or Quinnster. Detailed case coming after case vs. mrguy888.

5. Apparently, I'm the topranking (or nearly topranking) scummer on at least 3 different peoples lists, yet there is not a single vote on me. Something is wrong with that.

UNVOTE, VOTE: mrguy888[/c]

[Dr Doom]

meant:

UNVOTE, VOTE: mrguy888

[Dr Doom]

buggerall, I'm confusing mrguy888 and zMuffinman. Damm, this is not good for my evaluation of who is town and who isn't.

Unvote

[Dr Doom]

I'm here, I'll post more content later on/by the ned of today!