Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[RayFrost]

/confirming that I'm scum with gamma in this game.

[RayFrost]

RAYFROST you're supposed to say that after quickhammers, not pregame!

Now shape up, I don't feel like bussing you.

(2 more confirms to go)

Damn, my bad man. Still, I doubt they'll realize how sincere I was being, so we should be able to get away with it!

[RayFrost]

Mod: Do D) abilities count as A abilities? By this I mean to ask if it's possible to use both a D and an A ability on the same "night" phase.

[RayFrost]

That name really annoys me...

he is now known as Boris.

I think I get what we are supposed to do... and I have found scum! So now I should convince the town and then duel that person to death, right?

If you've found two scum then convince the town an then we have the two people die in a duel against each other.

[RayFrost]

OMG. Rayfrost is right. (sorry i can't stop razzing you! <3) Except I don't think both people die in a duel against each other.

If I am understanding the mechanic right, a player posts "DUEL: THATGUY" and then we have to lynch one of them and only one of them. I can see a scum exploiting that. They can challenge a person to a duel and then their buddies push the mislynch. I mean, maybe that's too obvious, but if they're skilled they could get away with it.

I say:
We decide together who our two top suspects are and force them to duel (and anybody who refuses to duel will be auto-lynched by the town via some townie who volunteers to duel them -- an enforcer perhaps nominated by the town). We should only have two scummy people dueling each other. No townie should take it upon themselves to duel someone they think is scum

Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.

That way we have as many people getting on record about potential duels as possible. We get more info this way, and hopefully town keeps control over who is in the duel, and then who gets lynched. Also we're guaranteed to have our two scummiest players in a duel.

Possible downside is the D ability thing. If scum win a duel they could get access to extra abilities. But if we see extra death after a duel, or something funny going on, then we know who to blame. So it might help us catch scum in the long run even though it could be bad/dangerous in the short term. And I think the pros of controlling the duel and getting info by everyone commenting on it, I think that outweighs this con. But speak up if I'm not foreseeing all possibilities, please!

Anyway, people, please comment on this strategy.

AGAIN: NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNTIL WE DECIDE.

I can razz you too.

In the signup thread it was explained that if both sides of the duel have equal votes then it counts as a no winner and both players die. In a duel only one person can come out alive. If you read the signup thread we pretty much already came to a similar conclusion. We can choose each day to either have our top two scummy players both die or have one of our top tow reads get empowered as a scum read dies. Either way we are always dueling based upon a majority and are not using the normal lynch in any circumstances as the duel mechanic can allow for a potential double lynch anyway.

[RayFrost]

Did fate just post in a game he's not in or is katsuki really replacing into her own player slot AGAIN in a hydra with him?

[RayFrost]

Actually, looking at the rules, maybe we don't have to duel every day? We can lynch normally OR duel?

We have to think about the implications of dueling verses lynching old-fashioned way.

The general idea behind dueling seems to make it more beneficial in comparison to lynching normally. We can have a double lynch by "voting" no winner with our top two scum reads or empower a strong town read while still lynching scum. If we don't have any town reads we can double up on the lynches for scum.

[RayFrost]

I was more laying a groundwork concept plan more than a set in stone we must follow this path. We obviously have to adjust as the situation calls for it but if we've got two people acting scummy we can quite simply remove both of them rather than dealing with one lynch and then another.

I understand your idea about making them claim: I think that's a very important thing to note. Also think they should claim their D) ability along with the rest of them so that we know exactly what they

should

be empowered with to see if things match up.

We almost certainly want to duel as much as possible considering that the likelihood of empowering scum is less and there doesn't seem like a large difference in having us pseudo vote for top two scum rather than TOP SCUM OF THE YEAR THAT MUST DIE and it'd probably give more information than just having a single flip. One flip can be useful for analysis but two flips give double the information imo. It'd also be useful for seeing which people push one but not the other an seeing their logic as to why and the like. I'm having difficulty following why it wouldn't be a good idea to start off on the position that we

should

use it and then adjust as more information comes out.

Anyway, sleep beckons and it's getting tiresome to use copy and paste to make a comma because there's something blocking the comma key. See yah.

[RayFrost]

For those too lazy to check the sign up there: here.

[RayFrost]

Naturally obv town should include Vi. Vi's always town.

[RayFrost]

Erm. Ludi, the game hadn't started yet and all there

was

to talk about was duel speculation. I couldn't even vote.

So what you're saying is nonsensical to me.

This and this read like made up post restrictions to me.

I agree with gamma that arguing about the duel stuff might not be the greatest idea early on. We're probably better off focusing on the whole finding scum thing rather than distracting from this by trying to solve the issue of optimal dueling strategy. First we find scum... then we think about the best way to deal with them.

[RayFrost]

Toasty is also worth keeping an eye on. The only reason a mind would wonder to the possibility of two ro more scum teams is if the known composition of your own scum team is not very strong or large.

As for Flavor about more scum teams, we have

Wu

with the Quan family,

Shu

with Lui Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and possibly a serial killer along the lines of Dong Zhou or Lu Bu.

Each probably interact favorably with duels somehow

"Toasty is suspect for coming up with the possibility of multiple scumteams"

"There are possibilities for scumteams and there's probably a serial killer!"

Vote: Magister Ludi

[RayFrost]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 2 - Juls, Katsuki - (L-9)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, AlmasterGM - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 1 - ToastyToast - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 1 - RayFrost - (L-10)

Maxous

- 1 - Vi - (L-10)

mykonian

- 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)

RayFrost

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

Vi

- 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros, Iecerint, InHimshallibe, Maxous, mykonian, RedCoyote

I'd also like to know how magister ludi came up with

specifically

Lui Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei in his list rather than [insert other people from shu].

[RayFrost]

"Toasty is worth keeping an eye on" seems like an expression of suspicion to me. Perhaps you meant "Toasty brings up an interesting" po- oh wait the rest of what you said makes it quite clear that you found it worthy of at least some suspicion.

If you find what he did suspect, I fail to see how you would not find your own action here suspicious as well.

Their being brothers doesn't guarantee their presence in the game, and I still don't see why you specified people for

shu

and the SK only. Why ignore bringing up possibilities for Wu? I have less issue with your bringing up possibilities for all o them than I do with you selectively bringing up the flavor possibilities. It's a matter of information reveal.

[RayFrost]

AlmasterGM 43... Statistics detected. Slander alert.

Maxous 53... Fluff levels significant. Action desired.

Voting... Maxous

(L-10)

Gammagooey 57... Suggestion advisable.

System message... RayFrost is Town. Katsuki is advised to change her vote now.

System message... Total comprehension of game mechanic on elvis_knits' part not detected. Suspicion slightly raised.

Standing by. Awaiting idiot input regarding whether this is a real post restriction.

Virminator?

Seriously though, please to be explaining town read on me. All I'd really posted at the time was stuff other people had said at sign ups.

[RayFrost]

Only played #3, and I had to google to realize your reasoning behind the shu choices (only remembered lui bei). I'm sure other people are more avid players of the series than myself. Looking stuff up, I fail to see why you wouldn't mention Sun Quan (EMPEROR) or Sun Ce (brother of EMPEROR) or Sun Shang Xiang (sister of EMPEROR) when you still mention the three brothers in Shu.

What I mean is the fact you speculated in just two of the three when even a simple google search by me brings up information about Wu as well. It doesn't make sense to exclude speculation on one if you're speculating on others, yet you did.

Still, I can't really think of any scum-motivation for excluding it I suppose. Meh. Leaving the vote anyway.

[RayFrost]

I don't know why everyone is all up in arms about talk on how we should maneuver the duel ability. We SHOULD come to a consensus on how to use it prior to pushing lynches. And we also learn about people's motivations based on their suggestions. Not to mention if people are constantly trying to nitpick and poke holes in everyones suggestions without bringing a valid idea to the table then I think that person is stalling and scummy.

I fin the discussion to be slightly more straight forward than I feel people are arguing.

We have the potential to double lynch or empower someone we believe to be town. Simply put, we should pseudo vote for each: top two scum candidates and top town read. Consensus on one more than the other = what we do. Seems the most straight forward way to do it, and there's not really any way that I can see for scum to manipulate it further than typical game-play manipulation.

[RayFrost]

Mod: Please note my vote for magister ludi on page 4. Bottom of the page.

[RayFrost]

So Ludi is scum for knowing the story of the Three Kingdoms?... :/

Erm... no.

Thought process:
Ludi is scum for saying that Toasty is suspect or discussing setup spec possibilities yet doing the same thing in his post when if you find it suspect it would mean it' be anti-town to do so yet he is doing he. He's then also scum for knowing the story of the Three Kingdoms and speculating yet clearly leaving out speculation about one entire possible faction yet discussing the others when they seem to me to be equally clear cut in "main proponents" - looking back on this, I can't really see a strong scum motivation for it, but I still feel it is vote worthy.

[RayFrost]

That and he's voting me for spurious reasoning when he has something more "valid" from his PoV on toasty (by this I mean to say he thinks his toasty reasoning is valid and I perceive his reasoning for me to be spurious in that it's based off of pre-game stuff - I would like ludi to address my relevant post).

[RayFrost]

Anyway, I've gotta study Japanese. See yah.

[RayFrost]

RF, those 3 characters aren't literally brothers; rather, their bromance drives a lot of the drama. Zhang Fei's kinda the odd man out, though...it's mainly a Guan Yu/Liu Bei bromance AFAICT...

Don't get the relevance of what you're saying here. Explain.

(Yes, I did finish my Japanese studies. I'm fast like that.)

[RayFrost]

Also: please to be explaining town read on me, iece.

[RayFrost]

I didn't feel I was coming to your defense? In a LoL game post interrupted

[RayFrost]

I disagree that SHu has only three. Zhuge Liang (my FAVORITE CHARACTER) is also a rather principle one. According to the wiki he's in every single game.

Re toasty thinking I came to his defense: I was having more of an issue with the double standard I saw in ludi's posting than anything about his stance on you (though I disagree with his logic for his suspicion, I can't say it's a particularly scummy stance to take in isolation).

[RayFrost]

That said, I don't feel the Zhuge Liang thing is particularly relevant to anything. I just wanted to say that I love him.

[RayFrost]

I own Dw3 I think though I haven't played it for about a year and a half. Lemme check which one I actually own... might be #5. Yup #5 not #3. Oh well.

[RayFrost]

I tentatively agree with gamma here. This could be very very bad for town very quickly if we say... used gamma's "we can duel twice in one day" ability and end up with four town dead D1 with (assumed two scumteams of four) scum hitting two town... well it's already a scum majority D2. Town's essentially screwed so I really doubt that scumteams are that heavily stacked if there's more than one. Though there

is

the possibility of one scumteam having larger numbers but weaker powers and the other having smaller numbers an stronger powers I guess. Really don't feel this kind of speculation's worthwhile this early on though.

[RayFrost]

If he has knowledge of the theme, why not be upfront about it?

Like I aid in a later post, I retract that it's a major scumtell on his part. I still don't like it, but it's hardly a large point against him like I initially thought. He's still my primo choice for who is scum at the moment as I don't really feel that toasty's thing is a big deal and also feel that c-worl's vote is proto-typical from what I've seen of him both town and scum.

[RayFrost]

This and this read like made up post restrictions to me.

..And what about them? Do you think they are mafia faking restricitions?
Don't like this vote either. That was actually a misrep. Ludi said the reason toasty might think of 2 scumteams in the first place is because his own is small and then commented on flavour speculation when it was the subject being discussed.
Quite a scummy vote in my eyes actually.

I'll keep this in mind if the mafia flip the Shu family.
After questioning Ludi, Ray Frost "can't think of scum motovation for excluding it?" Then why say he 'had an issue with it?. 'The bad vibes from Ray increase.

1. I thought Vi was having a sincere restriction here because she doesn't tend to be deliberately annoying but... "idiot input" is my hobby and job. For serious. C-worl was quite obviously fake so I said as much. It's more a neutral thing. I don't see much point to them alignment-wise.

The subject wasn't being discussed by anybody other than someone he stated a "scum read on" (which he redacted upon my suspecting him by the way) for initiating it. If someone's scummy for initiating such a conversation and then he does something of similar tact (he does in that he initiates speculating on

specific

characters for

some

families)... I fail to see the issue with my vote. He did something he considers scummy (note that I disagree with his assessment that it is scummy) and I find doing things you think to be scummy (aka double standards) scummy.

After further posting from ludi I felt that my initial suspicion based off of *leaving out wu* wasn't

as big an issue

as I was making it. I can't really think of much scum motivation for both doing it and then arguing that he was valid in doing so instead of alternatives such as deflecting / just doing it / etc. + the clarity that iece gave me in that the bromance is not quite as lolobv as it is for shu and the like. I know that it's strange for someone to actually use new information but... I do.

Now going to post about other stuff.

[RayFrost]

RayFrost

Post 118 and others: What is your concern with people having a town read on you? You have asked both iece and Vi to explain.

Erm. I suppose this explanation might be a bit confusing but...

I have an instinctual distrust of town reads on me that I can't follow. I don't feel that I've done all that much this game to give a town read like what they are getting off of me. When I don't have the same read on my play (I don't see myself as *clearly* town - maybe a slight town read but... :/) as people are saying about me I want explanations. 1) Helps me improve my play over all (Doing x is good town play etc) and 2) helps me read the person in question based upon the reasoning they supply.

Oddly enough... I'm more comfortable with scum reads on me than I am with town reads. Haven't always been but meh.

[RayFrost]

AGM:

GreyIce posting is bad but GreyIce is town-bad this game.

GreyIce:

AGM posting is actually not bad but anyway AGM is town this game.

Pay attention and do something useful with yourselves aside from kicking the shit out of each other.

[RayFrost]

The Viputer looks sincere but I don't get any sort of alignment read off of it and the C-worl stuff looks faker than fake but he didn't try to keep it up at all which makes it look like some sort of testing the waters for humor more than anything alignment based. That said... the C-worl stuff about the duel mechanic is terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

Almost as terrible as ludi. Almost.

[RayFrost]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

AlmasterGM

- 2 - GreyICE, C-Worl - (L-9)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 1 - InHimshallibe - (L-10)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

Katsuki

- 1 - Juls - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 7 - RayFrost, ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Vi, Amrun, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-4)

mykonian

- 2 - elvis_knits, DietyKabuto - (L-9)

RayFrost

- 2 - Magister Ludi, Maxous - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM, RedCoyote - (L-9)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

Show your work

Read above

To take something out of the book of cyberbob... lol

Inhim: do you feel the laughable c-worl posting is scummier than CSL's "wait a minute" post?

I like how you pretty much copy the argument that came before and don't really comment on the rest of the game.

I agree with mykonian. Myko is also town. Elvis is scum.

:goodposting:

Katsuki got something right. Holy shit.

Anger reads false.

I find deity's complete lack of given reads to be suspect.

DeityKabuto: Reads. Now.

Maxous - I don't follow the juls suspicion.

From this I assume you think I'm scummy - are there going to be posts about this or is "where's the follow up" going to be it?

Juls... I know you think the theory stuff and handling the uel mechanic properly is VERY SUPER SPECIAL IMPORTANT but...

WHERE ARE THE READS? Seriously. Give. Reads. Preferably now. You've still got your vote on amrun based upon (from what I can tell) her one post early in the game and her subsequent defensiveness. I disagree with your assessment but feel fine about it. Where's the rest of your thoughts about the

players

?

[RayFrost]

Oh wow. I read that and thought ":goodposting: juls is town" and then forgot about it.

My bad. This goes to show that my brain is fried after Japanese class I guess.

[RayFrost]

Unvote

Vote: CSL

[RayFrost]

Unvote

Vote: CSL + ReaperCharlie

Scumbuddies.

[RayFrost]

Oh god no. Coyote never mention that hydra again. Never. Again.

Please Reaper. Don't. PLEASE. That one game is enough for me to not want to ever see the name again. >.>

[RayFrost]

I thought Vi was having a sincere restriction here because she doesn't tend to be deliberately annoying but...

"idiot input" is my hobby and job.

Post 98

This(C-Worl) and this(Vi) read like made up post restrictions to me.

There is a clear inconsistency here.
Also you see them as null tells that don't point to thier alignment in any way even though you think C-Worl and maybe Vi are making them up? Then why mention it?

Read the bolded bro. It's a joke. I joke about stuff. I know I know... mafia r srs bznz. - I mention it because 1) I like giving idiot input and 2) I don't want to deal with c-worl aking a post restriction when his play from my experience is already inherently not that good.

And while you are it please explain why GreyICE is 'bad town' and you want himself and AGM to stop arguing?
I'm probably tunneling at this stage but what are you referring to by almost as terrible as Ludi?
Do you think C-Worl is mafia or not? And if Ludi is 'terrible' (I'm assuming this means scummy) then why did you change your vote?

I've a history with GreyICE. Well... sorta. Two recent games. He's cock sure of himself 24/7 and pretty much says "LOLNOPE" in reaction to people that disagree with him. Both games we've had together he was town so my meta's a tad incomplete but so far he's shown the same attitude as in the two games: "I'm right you're wrong so I'm not listening" - consistent behavior with his other two games. That said... anyone with scum-meta willing to say if this matches his scum meta as well?

C-worl / Ludi / Unicorn Madness = scum. I just can't decide on which one's more important. C-worl's scum for ridonculous accusations tied with completely insulting and terrible reasoning along with saying essentially nothing about the game aside from "lololol agm + greyice scumz0r"

You already know my ludi stuff. Suffice to say my reasoing on UM will reveal itself... in time.

By the way RC's suggestions for the duel against gamma seem a little too close to the easy route for me. With the exception of B bros(whom I never played with before) I probably could of told you before the game that the other 3 people he suggested would be early suspects.

Hi.

[RayFrost]

Amrun's posting is bad in the "I completely disagree with your assessment of this player but I can kinda see where you are coming from" kind of way. In contrast with our scumhunting machine (lolVi) I have a slightly town read on amrun. She's actually putting some effort into this even if she doesn't seem to be paying enough attention to everything.

Deity's posting is bad in the "is he going to say something useful soon" kind of way. Deity... reads on people

not named amrun

. Sometime within the next century. Thanks.

[RayFrost]

I can't say I like how E_K is handling amrun on this page. Whether it's scum coaching a buddy (slightly unlikely to me) or scum buddying (slightly more likely) is ytbd.

[RayFrost]

I'm having a really really hard time getting an alignment read on Vi at this point and I am starting to get edgey about how Iece is focusing 90% of his posts on explaining the flavor behind his ludi suspicion.

Iece:

Do you have

any

reads aside from ludi?

This game has too many people that are focusing all their attention on one target and ignoring everybody else. Stop it.

[RayFrost]

She thinks you're too competent for the reason I think you're town to be valid.

[RayFrost]

@RayFrost: Bad meta again, I ignore stuff town or scum. Also I don't ignore people, I just ignore silly ideas. Lynching Fatso was a silly idea because he was obvtown. Lynching danaspot was a silly idea, same. I bounced ideas off quite a few people, and I remember following your hydra after I poked you enough to confirm the alignment.

And here you actually prove my

real

meta on you... totally.

[RayFrost]

Any read given is better than no read given.

[RayFrost]

C-worl's scum for ridonculous accusations tied with completely insulting and terrible reasoning along with saying essentially nothing about the game aside from "lololol agm + greyice scumz0r"

That's completely retarded. You think I'm scum for stating my reads, disagreeing with other people's stupid plan, and actually sticking to reads that I find valid. D1 it's hard to get any scum reads without a flip must less two reads with no flips. I'm sticking to my guns until I see one of them in a grave unless you can actually change my mind on the subject.

(Hint: In order to attempt changing my mind you have to actual make a counter case to mine instead of just attempting to discredit it by laughing it off.)

You've got

two

reads. No other reads at all. That's the issue. I've gotten plenty of reads even if they are slight and have stated them while you've said essentially nothing about the game state.

You're "plan" is essentially "fuck you guys I do what I want" - please to be explaining how this is good play. Even if you trust your reads to that extent... if we think you're scum we'll have you lose the duel you initiate meaning you'll only empower your "scum read" that you dueled. This is why your plan won't be effectual regarding the duel mechanic.

Also: people seem to not understand something

In a duel we can have both people lose by voting "no winner" - this means both duelists die. A duel can essentially be a double lynch. Please consider this when you're talking about it.

[RayFrost]

Deity: mafia is first and foremost a team game. Working together to find the scum is crucial and people going all vigilante with something that can be a very powerful tool is not what I'd call wise or good play. I'm not demanding that he

always do what everybody else wants

like you seem to be implying. I'm saying that we've come up with a good and solid system and that his pig headedness here is not good. This is especially true because his single action can impact the rest of us in not-positive ways.

Vi: wut. How is maxous being bullied and how is he an easy target? Also: bullying is a scumtell... since when? AFAIK I've been a pretty major "bully" by your standards in the majority of the games where I'm actually playing them if what I posted re: maxous is bullying.

Also

really

don't follow how giving my reads on both deity and amrun is bullying either. I demand reads from someone who (still) isn't providing them. You call this bullying. I call this wanting content.

[RayFrost]

Quick post before I go out the door:

Maxous dropping me like a hot potato is noted. "Still not convinced" but not actually going to say why or anything. Just a light mention. And then he vote hops next post. Although he's getting on a scum wagon I don't like the method in which he did so.

[RayFrost]

...

RayFrost 377... In regards to bullying:

C-worl / Ludi / Unicorn Madness = scum. I just can't decide on which one's more important. C-worl's scum for ridonculous accusations tied with completely insulting and terrible reasoning along with saying essentially nothing about the game aside from "lololol agm + greyice scumz0r"

You already know my ludi stuff. Suffice to say my reasoing on UM will reveal itself... in time.

Concern in regards to Maxous at minimum

Oh. I don't see ludi as an "easy target" either. C-worl might be an "easy target" but I hardly see what I'm doing here as bullying considering that it's essentially describing everything about his play at the time. Also: "stop using easy lynch as an argument" thread says hi?

[RayFrost]

No content? =|

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: Iecerint

Actively avoiding the provision of information and instead focusing singularly upon

one lone "slip"

and only deciding to provide reads/content after 20 pages and people start suspecting him for it = scum.

[RayFrost]

So my current omfgobvtown reads are: Vi, Gamma, Juls, Mykonian, and... wait for it... Amrun. I bet only one of these is a surprise. Vi is a dayvig. Vi hit scum. Vi is town. Gamma's town for :goodposting: like in [redacted]. Juls is someone my instinct says not to trust. Might just be the fact my last game with her I didn't have any good interactions with her on a not-quite-game-related level, so bad memories etc. More trusting everybody else here on this one because I think I've got bias. Myko's calling of RC scum earlier in cmbnation with the lack of a fake feeling surrounding his push on EK = solid town read. Amrun's probably the explanation you guys want, and here it is: amrun has been one of the incarnations of actively posting reads an providing content this game. She's replied rather well to the amounts of pressure place on her, and I can't really understand what the case on her even is to begin with.

Slight town reads: AGM, GreyICE. I've experience with both of them. They both give me the squishy good feeling that means I want to punch GreyICE and tell him to shut up even though I know he's town and means well while I just roll my eyes at AGM and don't even feel like I should bother.

Needless to say, I don't have the best of experiences with them but yeah... still think they're town.

For my null reads: Magister Ludi, Maxous, Inhim, Elvis, Kats, DK and Iece. ML's initial stuff bugged me but I fee that his posting's improved over time. Maxous' posting is too far an few between for me to really get a firm grasp on how I feel about him. Inhim's presence this game has been really low but lack of experience with him means I dunno the alignment tell on that (trusting Vi n this would put Inhim as leaning scum by the by). On EK, gut says town, myko (town read) says otherwise. I don't consider myself the strongest scumhunter, so they nullify each other. Kats has been... kats. Initially, DK was on my scum list, but I feel less like he's scum after reading his iso. The fact his presence hs been low is fine when contrasted with his posts actually having smething to them rather than being words. I feel like Iece has really tunneled

hard

on ML in the past but his read-over posting was nice, and I want to see his play now that he isn't going "omfg omfg ml must die omfg" all the time.

Leaning scum: C-worl (only

leaning

here because I'm trying to trust Vi's word on this a bit more than my own) and BBros. C-worl's lacked content in 90% of his posts. His strongest "content" posts are... trying to convince toasty to not nominate gamma to win. I'm having a hard time seeing how he has any town logic here, but I guess he

is

a bit dim. I want to see some actual reads out of him, though. BB has a strange contrast when I read through his iso. His main large posts read rather competent but then when I read his smaller ones I get the feeling of someone who's at least seeming ignorant when it comes to how to play. The contrast really sets me on edge, which is why he's here. Feels like the newbie feeling Im getting is deliberate and faked.

Scum: DUM.

DUM's posting across the board is just unutterably bad except for this post. They've come in mostly taking either light pot shots or doing absolutely nothing. They even go "You didn't state reasoning, omg!" and then fail to state reasoning for their own list. The double standard just really sticks. Also feel the exception to their bad posting is fine but the follow up on the reads given is... non-existent really. They just make posts like these and seem to adjust their "reads" on people based upon whether they suspect toasty. The super strong push there reads like fake tunneling in an attempt to not have to back up anything else about what they say (not that they've said much anyway...).

[RayFrost]

Needless to say:

Vote: DUM

Holding my nom back for a bit while I look at stuff.

[RayFrost]

Might just be the fact my last game with her I didn't have any good interactions with her on a not-quite-game-related level, so bad memories etc.

Um...when did I play with you?

Caught in the crossfire. Admittedly my worst game on ms. Ever.

[RayFrost]

Then again, reading back over the game... it might be my attributing the terrible memories of that game as a whole onto you as you weren't really in that game for very long and nor did you interact with me.

[RayFrost]

I'm really starting to get annoyed by your "rayfrost is going with easy things, scummeh!" instead of actually explaining how my reads are at least in some way bad. Do you find my lgoic for amrun town to be poor?

Yes, many null reads. Sue me, I'm having a hard time placing a finger on them either way. DUM

is

likely scum.

And... are you really using

self-meta from me

as a basis for a read on me?

What makes you feel that my reads are "artificial" by the by?

[RayFrost]

Erm, Vi. How long has it been since you last had a game with us both in it? Going "afaik you haven't buddied me as town" is true, but we haven't had a completed game with me-town or even a game where I flipped town and buddied you that's remotely recent. The meta is at best outdated and useless and at worst outdated and harmful to your ability to read me.

What makes you think my thoughts re: scum / not sure is made up? I asked this before, I'm asking this again.

Also:

AGM and GreyICE are with high probability not both scum

. Perhaps one of them, but at least one townie is there between them. If you want to force a duel involving one of them, I'd recommend GreyICE over AGM.

P-edit: words. Will read after posting.

[RayFrost]

Vi: 1) you were scum that game, 2) that was hardly a game

anybody

in it would call a display of good play.

Obv disagree that the scum = likely town. Easy targets are easy targets because they're scummy. Likely (as in obv) scum = easy target.

I moved DK from scum to null. ML's leaning town in all honesty, but I don't have as strong a town read on him as I do on agm / greyice leading to him being put as the "top" null read so to speak. Also please to be explaining how people not being easy to read means I should be having reads on them. Which is kinda your reasoning for finding my null list artificial.

God, I should just revert to my good old LoS style. Made the distinguishing of things

so

much easier.

[RayFrost]

Vi. You disagree with my reads, I'm willing to accept that. I understand that you feel my scum reads are on "likely town." - Please point out the flaw(s) in my reasoning. Otherwise, I'm just going to put this as "Vi disagrees with me and thinks I'm scum because we have different reads" and move on.

[RayFrost]

Amrun: Vi meant that deity was going to say something similar to you. That it was a joke.

[RayFrost]

Holy shit. Deity's town.

Like seriously. Wow. :goodposting: Mind = blown etc Actually reading it rather than skimming at some point,; but for now he's a town read.

[RayFrost]

Even if he had lied about skimming, can you tell me the scum motivation in doing so?

[RayFrost]

I find the t-bone entrance to be sub-par in the "what an underwhelming replacement" rather than an alignment tell. T-bone. Read the thread. Provide content. Preferably now. Chop chop.

[RayFrost]

Hush vibot. Chop chop's a phrase my mother's used since I was young. It's ingrained.

Not sure I follow the "> replacement made > replacement must be scum per BaM modkill rules" logic. If a player is incompetent, there wouldn't be a replacement for that. Scumteams have to deal with it all the time. Town players have to deal with it all the time. The fact it happened

is

strange, but I don't see it as a tell per the player's alignment. Spyrex does have provisions regarding it, so yeah. We've no idea what the cause is, so avoid making assumptions.

[RayFrost]

Shamelessly lurking for a couple days. So. Ill. There are scales of mucus growing inside my nose as we speak. By the end of the week, I might breath fire.

[RayFrost]

Vote: T-bone

Testing abilities, testing abilities. Something that doesn't require thought. Yay. Still prob scum between them, though. Maybe both. Thoughts too fuddle fiddle to think this through.

[RayFrost]

System... Analysis of sitewide RayFrost posts suggests selective V/LA in current thread.

Very true. I'd discuss reasons, but I'm not sure if that'd edge on the side of talking about ongoing games. Suffice to say the following: compare relative thought necessary between games for coherence and value along with posting quality compared to desired value as well as position of games compared to this one. I can't think very hard without tiring myself out atm.

[RayFrost]

Unvote: the duel stuff

[RayFrost]

Mod: I may need to officially go V/LA for up to two weeks, as per familial issues I'd rather not reveal ITT. I will PM you about it.

To sum it up for you guys, though...: fml.

[RayFrost]

Well, as you're modding one of the games I'm in, you'll get to see the reasons behind my potential V/LA.

[RayFrost]

Aaaaand nevermind. Not going to need a V/LA.

[RayFrost]

If you want the reason, I can give it.

[RayFrost]

Tomorrow. It's past midnight here.

Just a quick note: don't try to duel me or action on me. It's unhealthy.

[RayFrost]

Potentially. More likely something else, though.

[RayFrost]

The reason is my dad was still not home when it was approaching midnight and his last email to my mom was at 7. We were both extremely worried that something had happened to him because the combination of 1) the lack of any contact and 2) the late hour.

If something had happened to him, I'd have gone V/LA for a while. He got back

while I was typing the PM to the mods of my games about that

. Hence the nevermind.

[RayFrost]

Holy shit. Deity's town.

Like seriously. Wow. :goodposting: Mind = blown etc Actually reading it rather than skimming at some point,; but for now he's a town read.

KEKEKEKE, your post following Deity's massive ISOing post isn't helping your case here, RF.

Not to mention most of his reads are completely wrong. (i.e. inHim, AGM, us, mykonian, Maxous, GreyICE, Amrun, elvis_knits)

Hahahahah wow that's bad. And you are like "OMG 0_0 YOOOO TOWN"

LOL

The invalidity of his posted reads was not relevant to my read o him.My main reason for thinking he was scum was the fact he'd been essentially coasting through the game providing no reads and clearly putting only a modicum of effort into the game. When he came out with a post that showed what seemed to be a lot of sincere effort at a time when not a gigantic amount of suspicion was on him, I felt he was town. I've felt people were town even when they're reads are complete shit. (also: amrun flipped survivor, and you re stating a scum read on maxous + mykonian, so I fail to see how you think he's "completely wrong")

[RayFrost]

I still don't trust ludi for

president

winner of this duel.

Vote: Gamma

[RayFrost]

Maxous: you can't call a bluff and feel good when it wasn't really a bluff. I'm not going into more detail just from you wanting it. If people want to start a duel with me, I ask that they don't so I can explain my ability. Don't target me before I can claim. All I'm saying.

[RayFrost]

Stay inside you're hydra dammit.

[RayFrost]

I just realized it says "renmoved" and not "removed" - haha, mod. u so clever.

[RayFrost]

Gamma, you're roleblock I can confirm to not have hit me. Not I-got-a-result kind of confirm but it's-not-possible kind of confirm. Pretty sure on the resolution of this.

[RayFrost]

Gamma kinda already claimed, so you're desire for Vi to "go first" is null.

[RayFrost]

Suffice to say you won't get the result you want. I'll claim when I claim.

[RayFrost]

Who the hell is mise, by the way? You?

[RayFrost]

Except I've yet to come to a full conclusion on the ludi flip. When I'm still processing something like this, I hardly feel it's necessary to post "wellp, I can't really say anything useful about it right now because I'm still thinking, but yeah... I noticed it." You clearly feel otherwise. Too bad.

Zhong Hui is my name, these abilities are my game:

D) Superiority - During the day, select a player. All actions, except for votes, that target you will target them instead until the following daybreak. This does include duels.
P) Paranoia - All actions, except votes, that target you will target a random living player instead. This does include duels.

Clarified with the mod on how the duel stuff works: basically it comes to person A targets me and the duel that

actually

happens is to person R.

I've no idea on how I'd ever get my D), but I guess there's the possibility of someone having a redirect-penetration or randomized targets hitting me or something. I asked the mod and he wasn't very helpful. Basically said "you'll know when you know" :/ Might even be that if the person that duels get redirected to wins that I'd get my D) instead or something.

[RayFrost]

That's amazingly ridiculous. That is the most ridiculous role I've ever, ever seen.

I mean it doesn't make sense to put on scum because you could just not claim that duels are redirected and instant mislynches if you would ever get dueled but you're basically invincible to nightkills and everything else if you don't claim and you become obvtown as town and just wow.

Ray why didn't you claim that actions wouldn't work as intended on you earlier in the game?

Erm, I wasn't sure about the benefit of drawing nightkills to (possibly) kill scum vs claiming to prevent madness. It didn't seem like anybody was going to come for me initially, so I didn't bring it up. When it seemed like people intended for it to happen, I spoke up on it.

And yeah, I hadn't really thought about initiating a duel. Can't believe I overlooked that.

[RayFrost]

I don't understand what myko said at all. Can someone give the "for stupid people" version? All I got was "ray's role claim makes me think he is scum"

[RayFrost]

If you want a scum dayvig in a game, you have a problem. The biggest problem is that scum could "outshoot" town and take out enough towny looking players making lynching in endgame a tough job. There are two roles capable of stopping this, if you don't want to give away the problem with a day-doc or day-blocker. The simplest solution is the bulletproof. However, if you think about it, this is very little defense against a very powerful scum. Then the next role is more odd: the Nexus. The person which makes sure that all actions directed at him will target some random other. This one also can't get shot. From this viewpoint, Rayfrosts claim points to Vi possibly being, with or without a team. (Day-SK's aren't unheard of, but we'll leave that to the mafia).

"Ray's claim means it's possible for Vi-scum"

Then, the last solution to the problem isn't an actual solution. It is giving the town more shots so that they won't be outshot: Gamma.

This all breaks down if you notice that RF can't also be targeted by duels. It's odd right from the start as the duelmechanic is Spyrex's baby, and this is forcing a RF lynch. It would be a defense against both Gamma and Vi, and seen the problems Vi alone would give as scum, both are quite out of the question. Ray's role, taking that into account, points to gamma being town and Vi being not part of the mafia (though day-sk is possible, which can be left for endgame) and RF being scum.

Rayfrost with that suddenly shot down my townread on him.

unvote vote Rayfrost

"But it doesn't really"

"And Ray's ability is antithetical to the duel mechanic"

"So ray is scum because his role indicates Vi-notmaf and gamma-town"

[RayFrost]

I don't follow the logic you use for all that, but that's what I got out of what you said.

[RayFrost]

So it's all "let's guess what the mod thinks" and "this doesn't make sense to me if I were modding" stuff?

Not sure how I feel about that.

[RayFrost]

I've no knowledge about people targeting me.

I softclaimed at the time people were speaking of dueling / killing me to stave it off because of the fact it wouldn't have ended up with a result anybody would want.

[RayFrost]

Mrrr? I don't have time to make long posts in between games of LoL. /addiction

[RayFrost]

And C-Worl's duel ability is a roleblocker and nothing else?
Even when gamma's active ability is roleblocking? Hmm.

For starter's, I don't like the "rb but nothing else!?" and then claiming a global RB and nothing else.

And then not really stating anything about it.

Explain the result of your "Hmm"ing or I shall assume that you were "Hmm"ing to the tune of notreallycommenting.

[RayFrost]

Between DUM and Maxous, I'm torn from the perspective of being stupid. Which I am.

DUM's got this supah sweet cop abillity.

Maxous has got this supah sweet global RB.

Ability-wise, I'd say maxous should win the duel.

Reads-wise, I've got a kinda solid town read on RC from the sheer rash stupidity he's displayed. The in-hydra conflict doesn't look faked to me, which would kinda be necessary considering made up reads and the like. On maxous, I'm leaning town but not really sure on why. Feelings. I like my gut, but I've been sick lately. Who knows if I'm right. After all, I just experienced the rather gross and painful process of slowly peeling a mucus-covered sore from my nose. Mind = broken.

For the time being, I prefer maxous over DUM based on ability preference, the fact the sore makes me think of RC, and the fact DUM started a premature and moderately stupid duel on someone he didn't have claimed suspicion of (nice catch by maxous there, admittedly)

[RayFrost]

In further news of whyRayfrostwhy:

Mod: Do D) abilities count as A abilities? By this I mean to ask if it's possible to use both a D and an A ability on the same "night" phase.

Why did you ask this question?

I didn't know the answer.

[RayFrost]

For the time being, I prefer maxous over DUM based on ability preference, the fact the sore makes me think of RC, and the fact DUM started a premature and moderately stupid duel on someone he didn't have claimed suspicion of (nice catch by maxous there, admittedly)

FENCESITTING

For the people who didn't understand me. I don't blame you. Oh, before you think it: Rayfrost isn't stupid. If there is one thing he pertinently isn't, it's being stupid.

Yup. FENCESITTING ALL ACROSS THE SKY.

[RayFrost]

You shouldn't need to know the answer.

I don't. Doesn't mean the same for others, and I figured I should ask. *shrug* Sue me.

[RayFrost]

RayFrost was who I'd have had cop results on in the morning though. He'd been flipping back and forth between a town read and scum read the whole game, and I didn't like it.

That would have just been ever the more helpful for my team. You'd have been redirected to Vi, get a town read on me, and then bam. Woohoo.

To those complimenting my play in this: I didn't really do too well. I mean, I lurked to victory over the last day rather than just actively promoting the win.

Gamma: I'm on LoL right now.

[RayFrost]

As for the actual play, the only parts of the game I read was the first half of D1, where I thought RF was playing very well for scum.

GG scum.

MoCo.

[RayFrost]

Just saying that my play this game was bad is all.

[RayFrost]

Like voting "draw - both survive" and not having a duel but being able to lynch? Seems like a decent addendum over "YOU MUST DECIDE"

[RayFrost]

2) Rayfrost, don't start out strong and then taper off once you think you have proved your worth. You got the best of everyone so I ain't hatin' but just to improve your game some.

Well, I didn't taper off deliberately. At the end of the game I did, but prior to that I was so sick that I simply avoided posting because my brain was addled. I was worried that my play would suffer in a way that got me lynched, so I decided to just avoid posting until I got better. I wasn't lying when I said that my nose was growing scales (well, kinda: it was a scab that was slowly expanding due [redacted - tmi]). It's the peak allergy season here as well, so generically feeling like hammered shit is kinda the status for me. At the time I said I was v/la from it, I was really incapable of posting worth a damn while afterward I just lost motivation since I was behind.

I find that a main issue with my [scum & town, but mostly scum] play is being unable to pick it back up when I've had downtime. I just completely lose momentum and then have to rev back up, which I simply don't have time to do when the game's already gotten into the main meat. As town, it's lessened because I get selfmotivated via wanting to find scum, but as scum I just get pretty lazy.

[RayFrost]

I'd reveal it, but iece seems to be adamant about keeping it hush hush and I'm bowing to his wishes on the matter (As I really don't care).