Succession Mafia II: OVER!

[Zdenek]

/confirming

[Zdenek]

Vote Fritz

The city councilperson is an irresistible mafia recruitment option.

[Zdenek]

As far as DGB's plan goes, I'm not sure that there is any sense in focusing on four players for two days to not clue the recruiters into where were are collectively heading.

Here was my list of most likely recruits:

Fritz L. R. Hernandez, City Councilperson
Herodotus Greco, Corrupt Cop
Mr. Sam Ludi, Corrupt Cop
Charles "Chaz" Poro, Business Owner
Ms. Spring Lullaby, Banker
Anahito Xvart, Teamster

[Zdenek]

I know it's been said before, but simply to minimize risk, I don't think that anyone (who isn't an alt) with a recent join date is a reasonable candidate to have been recruited last night. So unless cobbler is an alt, I would not support his lynch today. Also, at the risk of being shown to be an idiot, I think that Magister Ludi is an alt.

On that note as well, one issue that I have with xvart is his suggestion that bvoigt would have been a good recruit (I don't mean this to be a slight against bvoigt at all, just a comment on his join date). So it seems to me that he was trying to cast suspicion randomly with that remark rather than somewhere useful.

The irony, so-to-speak, of my post is that DGBs case on me is based on a timestamp.

I don't believe that xvart actually believes this.

Diminishes his level of play when given a slight amount of attention for being a possible recruit target

What makes you say this?

Herodotus, could you explain how this

I'd rather not see Ludi, in particular, pushed too hard, because he's a newbie and may look scummy even as a townie if he's pressured.

is compatible with your earlier vote on Cobblerfone?

[Zdenek]

Diminishes his level of play when given a slight amount of attention for being a possible recruit target

What makes you say this?

This post. And this one.

The example of good play that you provided occurred in Post 97, and Ludi suggest Chronopie as a possible recruit in 83 and Rampage suggested it in 95, so I'm having a hard time buying your argument.

(Also at zdenek, I am not an alt. We had been playing a game in large normal together, sheesh!)

That doesn't preclude you from being an alt, but it's not important.

As for Ludi's list, I think it's obvious that telling scum what you think they are thinking while your goal is to outguess them is not very wise.

So you think Ludi is scum because he is trying to communicate with his recruiter through his list or am I missing something?

[Zdenek]

Question to everyone:
Does anyone think either of ABR or kinetic would have been ballsy enough to put their recruitment pick in their 3 that they suggested to each other?

I am ignoring their lists.

[Zdenek]

Once identified as a decent player and good recruit on N0 he starts saying how he wouldn't be a good recruit. That is the chronology I'm talking about.

No it wasn't. What you said was:

Diminishes his level of play when given a slight amount of attention for being a possible recruit target

It's not really the same to say that someone diminishing their level of play as to say that they are being self-deprecating.

No, I'm ok with my vote on Ludi right now because I don't think his list idea is good for the town for the reasons I've already cited you've quoted: "I think it's obvious that telling scum what you think they are thinking while your goal is to outguess them is not very wise".
It's a self handicapping process, meaning that it is at best not well thought out townie plan, at worst scum trying to look busy while creating air.

So you're not voting him because you think he was recruited, but because he is doing something that you perceive as anti-town.

Zdenek post at the bottom of page 8, makes me wary that he seems to be strongly in favour of cutting out the newbies as potential recruits which includes himself

I don't like that Porochaz bothered to say this, but ignored that DGB and Yos decided to eliminate high-profile players from consideration as recruits.

I know the role I have. I was halfway sure that all teamsters might've had it too. To explain in short: I'm unrecruitable. The scum will have to lynch or kill me. That's the difference that made me not want to lynch you.

Why did you claim this now?

One, if xvart is being run up to a lynch today, isn't that exactly the sort of player they would avoid? How come no one mentioned this.

Because it leads nowhere . . . is this a trick question?

I'm not going to respond to Yosarian2's post about the unrecruitable modifier.

Why?

[Zdenek]

Seriously? You are going to argue semantics and syntax with me over this? They are the same thing in intent. The obvious point of my post was he was diminishing his level of play and/or being self deprecating to allude to/show how unlikely it was that he was recruited; and it was done at a time when he had very little if any support of actually being lynched. So now the real question is are you recruited and just using the classic scum tactic of arguing semantics to look like you are participating?

Xvart, I took your use of the word diminishing to mean that you thought he actually started playing worse as a result of it being suggested that he was recruited, as opposed to just being self-deprecating. I think the two things are quite different.

Zdenek - why are you still voting Fritz? And can you explain the reasoning behind your original strong recruit target list? I think I see some logic behind it (however flawed it might be) but it seems inconsistent so I'll let you explain first.

I am voting Fritz because I think he was a reasonable choice to be recruited. He was also self-deprecating about his play. In an earlier post he told us that he walked a mile to get cell reception to make a post, but his most recent post was quite casual. I don't mean any of this to be damning, but it certainly doesn't give me a reason to think that he wasn't recruited, so my vote stays.

As far as my list goes:
I removed Bunnylover, bvoigt, Cecily, Cobblerfone,, Raudhr, Dry-Fit, Nobody Special and ThAdmiral because of newness or my experiences playing with them. I should note that I kept Ludi because I thought he was an alt.

I removed Katsuki because Ludi removed him for being too volatile.

I kept people with positions in the town that seemed like they might come with abilities that could be useful. I am aware that Mr. Flay said that their wasn't necessarily a relation between game role and town-position, so this was essentially an arbitrary way to reduce the list. I made a judgement call to remove the doctor at this point. That left me with

Fritz L. R. Hernandez, City Councilperson
Herodotus Greco, Corrupt Cop
Mr. Sam Ludi, Corrupt Cop
Charles "Chaz" Poro, Business Owner
Ms. Spring Lullaby, Banker
Anahito Xvart, Teamster

This was just a starting place for me. I did not intent it to be a list of the only people I would consider lynching.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek- You only mention 16 players in your last post, what about the 9 others (besides the CRs)?

I didn't mention them by name, but:

I kept people with positions in the town that seemed like they might come with abilities that could be useful. I am aware that Mr. Flay said that their wasn't necessarily a relation between game role and town-position, so this was essentially an arbitrary way to reduce the list. I made a judgement call to remove the doctor at this point. That left me with . . .

So I removed the cook, the dancers, the junkies, and so on.

Yeah... its kind of like I don't suspect yos at all...

I don't like this response at all. He expresses suspicion of me because I used a way of excluding players that excludes myself, I comment that he didn't point out the fact that both Yosarian and DGB did the same thing by excluding high profile players, and rather than explaining himself, he responds sarcastically.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek- So you removed the bank clerk but not the banker?

Yes

[Zdenek]

Zdenek- ... Why? Bank clerk and banker are very similar roles. What role do you think I would have as a bank clerk, that wouldn't be applied to a banker?

I didn't and don't have one in mind. Banker just sounds better than bank clerk to me. Also that particular decision was partly because I remember reading somewhere in Mafia Discussion that Adel found that he was lynched less when he had his gender set as female, so I kept her over you because of the chance that one of the recruiters might have taken a gamble on that idea.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek 300: Removing players from consideration due to a profession mod-confirmed to be flavor only seems like a moronic thing to even consider.

I would guess that there could be compatibility between the roles and abilities. Considering that Cobblerfone is a teamster and has claimed unrecruitable, if he's telling the truth, that seems to be the case (however historically inaccurate it might be). If I was a recruiter, I might also guess that this could be the case and recruit accordingly.

For the record, I believe Cobblerfone's claim for the reason that Herodotus pointed out. He set it up in advance and it would have had to have been planned quite carefully.

VOTE: Vote Spring

I think Cobbler is more scum than town at this moment, his claim does not make any sense as town, and I don't think anyone town, especially a newbie would claim that fast under very little pressure.

He is my default lynch today. I'm not in a hurry to remove my vote on Magister at this point though.

Spring 333: Question (to you or anyone else who may want to chime in on the whole thing): The cobble claim doesn't make sense from a town point of view, sure, but do you see any situation where it would make sense from a scum point of view any more than a town point of view?

I think it might be something I could have tried as an investigation proof scum. What with the lying low since the claim.
I need to look at his meta though.

Flameaxe's question was completely reasonable, but her answer completely dodged actually responding to the question, but instead posited a situation where Cobbler might have risked making a gambit with an unrecruitable claim.

[Zdenek]

What do you think about the fact that it might be their pregame plan if any of the other teamsters get's wagoned?

It's possible, but it's a big risk to take, and I still don't think a recruiter would have chosen a new player. There is more at stake than just today, one recruiter has to beat the other one in the long run, and choosing a weak player (who could, for instance, give away other members of the cult) would be a permanent detriment to the group. So while perhaps the argument that a recruiter might have picked a weak player first because town is unlikely to think that he's scum and lynch him day one, has some merit, I think it's a lot harder to justify such a choice in the context of the entire game.

[Zdenek]

Of the lynches that DGB prefers, I'd be most inclined to support an Xvart lynch. I still think that the newness of Magister Ludi to the site makes him an unlikely recruit. Xvart as least would have been a reasonable choice and his reaction to being suspected was a bit much. However, without anything to compare it to, it's not all that damning.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek Why are you voting me?

I think Cobbler is more scum than town at this moment, his claim does not make any sense as town, and I don't think anyone town, especially a newbie would claim that fast under very little pressure.

He is my default lynch today. I'm not in a hurry to remove my vote on Magister at this point though.

Spring 333: Question (to you or anyone else who may want to chime in on the whole thing): The cobble claim doesn't make sense from a town point of view, sure, but do you see any situation where it would make sense from a scum point of view any more than a town point of view?

I think it might be something I could have tried as an investigation proof scum. What with the lying low since the claim.
I need to look at his meta though.

Flameaxe's question was completely reasonable, but her answer completely dodged actually responding to the question, but instead posited a situation where Cobbler might have risked making a gambit with an unrecruitable claim.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek
Agree on the long term implications but cobbler looks like someone who can handle himself when pressured (Have to read his previous game because ABR said he read everybody's previous game before making a choice)

I think that the amount of evidence that there is for that wouldn't be enough to convince either of CRs to decide to take him.

What makes you think that his claim is a lie?

DGB, why can't we lynch lullaby?

[Zdenek]

DGB, fair enough.

Unvote
Vote Yosarian

The reasons can be found by looking up.

[Zdenek]

I believe neither recruiter would have recruited Yos - but both are paranoid about the fact that the other could have recruited Yos .. So will definitely use their recruits to see if Yos was recruited or to lynch him ..

Yosarian2 - 4 (Magister Ludi, populartajo, Cobblerfone, Zdenek, Katsuki)

I'll need to read the Magister'+tajos' posts again ..

Why do you think that their potential paranoia matters today?

[Zdenek]

After the recent Jester speculation, I am happier yet with a Springlullaby lynch.

Reviewing DGB, her asking to be allowed to live is somewhat scummy, but the best argument against her that I see at the moment is her seizing control of the game early, directing attention away from herself and trying to get the game to move quickly. However, none of that is any different from her normal play.

DGB, how come Magister Ludi was on your first list of four possible recruits, and, in particular, why did you include someone so new to the site?

I'm going to be V/LA tomorrow and Tuesday for travel. I suspect that I'll have regular internet access where I am going.

[Zdenek]

SL's ISO 28:

I kind of want to drop the j bomb about cobbler.

That last string of terrible votes plus the claiming.

How probable is it in a setup designed by Flay?

[Zdenek]

Really? How about you go read CYS: A Monument of Sins and get back to me on that, ok~?

I'm not going to argue that I played well, but considering that you spent the game spamming the thread, leading the town from reasonable lynches to terrible ones and didn't vote scum once the entire game, I don't think yours was anything to be proud of.

However, your argument against Battousai is reasonable.

I don't find Ooba's argument against Tajo convincing, he's attacking a group of players that are probably amongst the most likely recruits and the fact that he is part of that group isn't really a good reason to think that he is scum.

Unvote
Vote Battousai

[Zdenek]

I'm back, but I won't have time to post tonight. I'll do it tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

I thought I was going to have more time yesterday, and there is a chance that I'll have more time later, but life has become busy for the next few days, so I'll just deal with pressing things.

Looking at the thread again, I'm not as enamored with LLD's argument against Battousai as I was at first. In particular the first point of her argument makes little sense in the context of having to vig unlynchable players. As for the rest of her argument, while I still think that some of her points have some merit, I no longer think that it makes Battousai look like he was really stretching for an argument against Nobody Special as it did before, so

Unvote

I'm pretty torn about Springlullaby, but her recent posts make her look a bit better, so I don't feel nearly as bad about her as I did before.

When it comes to Xvart, at least there is some kind of case against him now, that he's pushing the easy to push Chronopie wagon, but he put Chronopie at the top of his list when Chrono was just leading by one. I'm not keen on voting for Xvart, it seems basically like policy lynch for being a reasonable recruit choice.

If I have a chance, I'll get to making my list of three tonight, if there is a general feeling that we need to achieve a lynch soon, I'm willing to use my vote as a deadline vote and vote for who is highest in the vote count.

V/LA until Sunday

[Zdenek]

So, I had some time today. Here is my list. I couldn't decide on the third, but here are two:

Flameaxe
Herodotus

[Zdenek]

I'm back.

Of the viable lynches, I prefer Chronopie, but this only takes into account things that happened before my last post.

Vote Chronopie

Reading the thread now.

[Zdenek]

This is very interesting since you were previously "most inclined to support my lynch" yet I fail to make your list, especially when you consider your recent soft support of me being scum.

Before I made my list, I reread the game, and decided that you weren't a great candidate to be scum based on the way you've been playing. So even though you might be a decent choice to be recruited, I don't think you were.

Why? And you're rolefishing.

It's not role-fishing, and it was RVS - mafias are well-known to bribe public officials.

Why are you doing this?
What good does listing potential recruits do just based on roles?

At the time, there was nothing else to go on, and it wasn't just based on roles.

My vote is on Chronopie basically because nothing he has done makes me think that he's town. I'll be here for two more hours or so, and if needed I'll move my vote. I think it's best that we take a shot at lynching today.

[Zdenek]

Vote Yos2

compromise.

[Zdenek]

Considering his play near the end of day one, and in particular his posting of the pointless activity charts, I'm okay with the Battousai wagon.

Vote: Battousai

I will be on limited access for the next two weeks, if it is too bad, I'll replace out.

[Zdenek]

I am here. I think that the case against Cobblerfone based on his changing claims is reasonable, so I'd be willing to support his lynch. I don't understand why the quote from ML by DGB (something about him being unable to see her as town confirms him as scum) implies that he is scum. On the other hand, I think that the case against DGB makes quite a bit of sense.

I'll be back soon.

[Zdenek]

I'll be back to my normal level of activity tomorrow. Sorry for the lack of posting, but the Internet where I've been is slow when it's working and down regularly.

[Zdenek]

Working on getting caught up:

After the claims, I am not willing to lynch Yosarian, ML or Herodotus today.

If Cobblerfone was recruited, he was recruited N0, and while I thought that would be unlikely at first considering who he is as a player, the backing away from his claim, does not give me a good feeling. On the other hand there is fact that seems to have been confirmed by Nobody Special and Seraphim, that the mod can be vague, so I am willing to continue to give Cobbler the benefit of the doubt, but if he ended up dead somehow, it wouldn't bother me.

Bunnylover's play serves as a perfect example of why she is town.

Anyone else notice the drastic change in LLD's play since day one?

I think the reactions of Fritzler, Flameaxe to Herodotus' list and investigation result are suspicious.

DGB's argument against Katsuki is that she seems to not be paying attention to anything and wants her lynched as a Kinetic recruit. I don't have very strong feelings about this. I'll have to look harder at Katsuki.

My feeling is that unless SpringLull was recruited by Albert, she's not scum because of her reaction (or if you like, lack of reaction) to his claimed guilty investigation of her.

I agree that Seraphim was a good candidate to be recruited, since he was fairly inactive early and had claimed a power role. We can also add information-fishing to that.

[Zdenek]

Still reading and letting the game sink in, but I'll be all caught up soon.

Question for all: who has a town read on DGB and why?

If you like the argument that recruits will attack strong players, Tajo is a good choice for a vote, since he's attacked Yos and DGB (albeit, he does have a point about DGB. However, considering her style of play, I'm not sure how good it is; hence my first question).

I am with Ooba and think that Tanarin is probably scum. At the moment, I would go so far as to guess that he was recruited N0.

He starts off complaining about WIFOM in ISO's 2 and 3, and proposing arguments of what from the recruiters we should trust.

He calls Cobbler's claim mysterious, which is an attempt to cast doubt on it without calling it scummy. He does the same thing with Yos: "Something is off with you. Can't place my finger on it, but something is off."

I guess it's null, but for what it's worth in his day one lynch list, he didn't inlcude Porochaz, who was the person he was voting for at the time he made his list. (The problem is that it could be him not remembering who he is suspicious of, but scum usually try to be consistent). He did it again when he unvoted ThAd, but made it seem as though he was unvoting Xvart.

He went back to look at interactions with Porochaz, but didn't really look at how people responded to Herodotus' claim, so it doesn't seem like he was all that interested in actually looking for interactions to incriminate others based on the flip.

Finally there is the potential slip about knowing who recruited Porochaz.

All in all, he is either scum or very lazy town.

[Zdenek]

Which one is it, scum or town, zdenek?

. . . Tanarin is probably scum.

[Zdenek]

Why did you end with this then:

All in all, he is either scum or very lazy town.

Because it's also a possibility.

[Zdenek]

Finally there is the potential slip about knowing who recruited Porochaz.

That was not a slip, Porochaz had already 'fessed up to it.

It could have been a lie, which is something that Tanarin didn't consider.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Flameaxe

[Zdenek]

Seriously, Flameaxe basically has to be scum because of his LL vote. He was on Cobbler, who's been pretty scummy all game, and there is essentially no reason to unvote him. In the post where he unvoted it seemed like he acted as though his vote was on Katsuki. If you ask me, it was a move to put his vote in a place where it was more fluid.

However, since no one seems to care about that, and Katsuki's failure to claim pisses me off.

VOTE: Katsuki

I would also be okay with lynching Tanarin.

DGB's entire style of play this game strikes me as wifom - her antics make me want to lynch her which in turn makes me think there is no chance that she would have been recruited, which makes me think that she was recruited and so on and so on. The fact that her actions are what started this whole business off, make me suspicious of her. On the grounds that Yosarian isn't suspicious of her. I'm not going to push this idea now.

[Zdenek]

If there's no reason for me to unvote Cobble, why aren't you voting Cobble yourself? After all, he's "been scummy all game" to you.

Because I doubt the recruiters would have risked recruiting him.

Good job at missing the point.

LLD, when do you think that Spring was recruited?

[Zdenek]

So Darox is still scummy - Tanarin + Amished tell on replacing in: "Unvote because I'm targeting a cool person;" he also criticizes Tanarin later.

Battousai's attitude surrounding lynching Katsuki, for exmaple:

I wouldn't claim either, if I didn't have time to defend myself and to elaborate on the claim as needed.

reads as a disingenuous attempt stand out from the crowd, just like his fake day actions earlier. However, this is only a reasonable point against him if he was recruited N0.

I don't have time right now to think about the Battousai bank business.

(Queue OMGUS claim...now).
[/queue]
Here we see Flameaxe doing what Porochaz did day one - shutting down discussion by attempting to predict the reaction to a comment he is making, rather than allowing the discussion to proceed naturally.

Assuming Herod has a guilty:

Vote: bvoigt

[Zdenek]

Vote: Flameaxe

[Zdenek]

Oops I forgot we have a guilty on bvoigt.

Unvote
Vote bvoigt

[Zdenek]

I like the part where you're avoiding any real content towards this vote. Its cute.

Your post is obviously coming from scum since your comment doesn't apply to what I said, and you are just looking for some sort of fake symmetry.

Regarding Flameaxe,

he's a town read at this point.

Why?

To be clear, I did not target bvoigt last night.

After his pathetic reaction, i'd still be okay with lyching him.

I still prefer this:

Vote: Flameaxe

[Zdenek]

Uh? What? My comment referred to the fact that in a paragraph of my opinions towards you, you chose only to respond to the part that mentions the OMGUS. Funny enough, this is essentially the same way I said it in my original post. If I'm looking for fake symmetry, you're looking for fake excuses. You can come at me (bro) as much as you want, but please for everyone's sake, use some damn logic.

Your paragraph of opinions was a waste of time. You say that your read is mostly gut, which is hardly something I can argue against, and considering how this game has progressed most of your points are irrelevant. More on this below. Plus you disown your case by saying that it was a result of skimming an iso, so you could potentially claim that missed anything that was brought up as an argument against what your said.

I think the reactions of Fritzler, Flameaxe to Herodotus' list and investigation result are suspicious.

A wonderfully vague suspicion. That about sums up any opinion I have on this post. I will add that this is the only post of day two to mention me, as vague as it is.

Here is what you had to say:

I won't follow the CORRUPT cop in a smalltown game, thanks. (Even then, I doubt you can call this a smalltown game simply because we have professions listed on the first page. I've yet to see any connection between profession and role that can be seen as logical).

What's wrong with it:

You immediately try to cast doubt on the claim rather than consider whether is could be correct, and more importantly, you do it, by continuing to argue that there isn't a connection between profession and role. I have a problem with that because as scum, one would clearly want to have any claim available to him, rather than having to claim something compatible with his profession.

Also, now it seems fairly clear that there is some sort of compatibility between role and profession.

Here we see Flameaxe doing what Porochaz did day one - shutting down discussion by attempting to predict the reaction to a comment he is making, rather than allowing the discussion to proceed naturally.

A) What I said before: Nothing is stopping you from discussing naturally but you not actually discussing it. You're using a throwaway comment as an excuse to ignore anything I said in the post this was a reply to. I stand by my thoughts there, and expect them to be taken seriously.
B) Explain to me why this is scummy. Because a scum did it? It sure sounds like a personality trait much more than a tell.

It's not a throwaway comment.

It's scummy because it is reactive, not scum hunting, and an attempt to preemptively disparage my response to you.

Mostly for this post, which contains some good reasoning and scumhunting. The case he just posted reaffirms that read.

For the record, here Flameaxe's post:

Flameaxe unvoted right near hammer for Katsuki's claim (which he admits are underwhelming)

Question: WHO did I unvote? Answer: It wasn't Katsuki. (Assuming you're trying to make the point I think you are...) Actually, reading back on the end of the day, this comment is completely false. I never unvoted for a claim, in fact, my vote was never on Kat until AFTER the claim.

On an unrelated note, just to get it out there, my shortlist is looking like:

• Cobble - Nothing has changed regarding this thought except three more days passing.
  
• Lambda - I felt Cecily was pretty sketchy day one, but more importantly, the change in playstyle from day one to day two really stands out to me.
  
• Zdenek - Mostly gut, thus the third spot. Call it more of an "honorable mention" really. I know it was mostly V/LA related, but none of his posting seems to be very memorable or substantial to me. Skimming an iso reads to me like a lot of throwing out names, with little to actually push any wagon behind the names. The few times he does commit to an opinion, it is generally a one time deal, rarely committing to any sort of vote. His posting style feels very passive to me, something that stands out to me. (Queue OMGUS claim...now).
  
• Tajo - 100% gut. Not a very strong gut either. More of an irk than anything really. Will look into it further to hopefully get something out of it.

First of all, making cases is not necessarily townie. Second of all, his good reasoning is pointing out that he unvoted Katsuki, nothing has changed about his thoughts on Cobbler, Cecily was "sketchy" and others, for instance me, had pointed out the change in LLD's play before that, he makes some sort of case against me, calling it gut, saying that the posts don't stand out (as though that is some sort of scum tell), it's true that I haven't pushed any wagons too hard, but Katsuki and Porochaz where obviously good lynches that I didn't need to push. Tajo is also a gut read.

I am not seeing good reasoning here.

What was scummy about my reaction? Also, what do you mean by "fake symmetry"?

You acted like scum trying to be cool when someone claimed a guilty on you rather than like town who someone is lying about. Your other question was answered above.

[Zdenek]

Oops, I meant to answer your question above, but it should be obvious from looking at the quote:

Here we see Flameaxe doing what Porochaz did day one - shutting down discussion by attempting to predict the reaction to a comment he is making, rather than allowing the discussion to proceed naturally.

Here we see Zdenek picking out the one useless throwaway part of my comments towards him, and deciding to make another throwaway comment back, rather than proceeding with discussion naturally.

Two way street.

I describe something that he did, and then he describes something that I did, in an identical way, except when he does it, the comment doesn't apply.

[Zdenek]

For one thing, the Cobblerfone case was made in previous days, but it was well-reasoned. Although he could have been recruited since then, a town read from Day 2 or 3 or whatever still decreases the chance of someone being scum. And while he did say the case on you was "mostly gut," there are concrete reasons to back it up: throwing out names without truly pushing wagons, committing to few opinions and votes, and passivity.

So you think Flameaxe is town because he made a case against Cobbler and gave some reasons to be suspicious of someone.

Also, there is no chance that any recruiter would have recruited Cobbler after Day 1. The fact that your even suggesting it is a pretty good reason for you to be lynched because it shows that you aren't thinking like a townie, and are just making stuff up.

Well, even if he did claim a guilty on me, I wouldn't be convinced he's scum. I just don't see the scum motivation for claiming a false guilty, because it would undoubtedly result in a 1-for-1 trade. Instead, I would wonder if there is a framer or something.

That's not what I was getting at. You were trying to play it cool, and now, you are showing that you were thinking like scum, and looking for ways to argue against his claim, rather than simply knowing before hand that it was false.

I now prefer bvoigt to Flameaxe.

Unvote
Vote bvoigt

Hey guys, someone just said that opinions in a mafia game is a waste of time. Quiet chuckle to myself. It originally started as a gut read, and through the middle of the post, I read through the iso and that supported my gut read. I hardly see how stating it was gut, and then referencing an iso (with points made from the iso, for what its worth) disowns any case. This just reads as you being lazy and finding any excuse to ignore my opinions towards you. (And if anything, you can't really call it a case...)

It was your paragraph of opinions that was a waste of time, not opinions in general and the problem was that you said that it was a result of

skimming

my iso.

At the time, and given my own role, I had no reason to believe there was a compatibility between role and profession. Secondly, THIS IS A FUCKING CULT GAME. Of course I will doubt any claims, especially one as soft as it was. He hadn't revealed a guilty at that point, and as far as I was concerned, he was wasting everyone's time. In fact, I never doubted his role as a cop, I doubted the validity of his results due to him being a CORRUPT cop. I'd say that's me realizing the connection between profession and role more than you ever have. Try harder.

No. You've been pressing the idea that there is no connection between roles and profession, but when it suits you, you argue based on the idea that there is a connection. Now, in one paragraph you go from saying that you had no reason to believe a compatibility between role and profession, to saying that you will doubt any claims because it is a cult game, to saying that you doubted his claim because he is a corrupt cop. This does not add up at all, and looks like you are searching for reasons for doubting him rather than just giving ones that make sense.

For instance, you have shown suspicion of me from DAY ONE, yet, I haven't heard any concrete reasoning, or even attempts to convince other players to join you until DAY FOUR, conveniently when I start pushing back at you.

The lynches on day 2 and 3 were obvious.

I'm not all that interested in lynching DGB, but I'm not going to pretend that I have a good read on that slot.

LLD what does OoT stand for?

[Zdenek]

How does it match his play? What do you usually see him do as town that he is doing here?

His play was, no offence, not one of the clearest and I remember him using alternative scumhunting which got town zdenek lynched earlier.

Zdenek

, can you remember the game we both played in? I can't, but I can remember playing with you. Maybe a game I replaced in later orso?

I think my wiki is complete and I just checked through it. Unless you have an alt or I failed to add a game to it, we haven't played together before.

[Zdenek]

Though it's probably just a vig and an even-night vig.

I'm guessing Andrius was a scum kill.

Yes, I thought he made a good case against Cobbler, the player whom I thought was most likely to be scum on Day 1. What, in your opinion, is incorrect or scummy about that?

It's not that it's scummy; it's a bad reason to think that someone is town.

It's true that Katsuki lurked, but IIRC, he wasn't recruited until later in the game.

How do you know this?

I believe that Darox is the role he is claiming. I would have thought that as scum and lying about his day one protect, he'd have come up with a better lie than that. On the other hand, I don't think this helps his case that he's town.

I don't like Tajo's reaction to Darox's claim - I find the fact that he didn't include the quotes from Tanarin until asked odd.

. . . Tanarin likes to live dangerously.

What is this nonsense?

I'll be back later.

[Zdenek]

I don't feel great about the Darox wagon - call it gut. I thought Tanarin was scummy, but as I read the game, I find it harder to believe that he was recruited.

Of the other wagons, I'd be willing to vote for Tajo.

[Zdenek]

HOW DID YOU KNOW YOUR ABILITY FAILED ON DGB N1 IF YOU ARE A DOCTOR?

This is a great point, and ruins any thoughts that I had that Darox could be town. It looks like he is just making things up.

Unvote
Vote Darox

[Zdenek]

I think Tanarin's play day one was pretty suspicious, so I'd be surprised if he was recruited after day one, and, considering the player list, after seeing him play I was having a hard time believing that he would have been a choice for a pre-game recruit.

[Zdenek]

Let's try this again:

Vote: FlameAxe

I would be okay with a mass claim too.

[Zdenek]

Shouldn't we stop arging if we're mass-claiming? Some people who seem to think it's for the best.

[Zdenek]

But you don't?

What's your opinion, and why didn't you choose to give it?

I'm happy to yield to the opinions of others on it, but I can definitely see the advantage to not commenting on things during a mass claim.

I am a Cult Doctor. According to flavor, I'm a Catholic priest, and everyone is part of my flock, even if they don't regularly come to church. I can attempt to counsel someone who might fall into bad ways. My targets were DGB on N1, and Herodotus on N2-N4.

Since ML claimed that if Herod was recruited, he would know, that was pointless, and I agree with Herod that it reeks of scum trying to please town.

Unvote
Vote Bvoigt

[Zdenek]

I'm going to be V/LA next week - until Sunday - so if there are no objections I'll claim in about 6.5 hours.

Mod: V/LA until Aug. 7

[Zdenek]

So I'll claim, since I'll be away.

I'm a pharmacist. I can choose to protect someone at night. My actions have a 50% chance of succeeding. Night one, I protected Ooba, and since then I've protected Herodotus. I can also travel to a location.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: Are you a cult doc, or a regular doc? What's the flavor?

Regular.

I'm a pharmacist, I don't like what's happening in River Quay, so I'm going to do what I can to help.

Z, do you feel like clarifying:
1: Whether your ability specifically provides protection from NK's?
2: Whether you are told the result of the 50% chance?
3: If so, on what nights have you been successful?

1. Yes
2. No

I think Cobbler's lynch claimed VTs/me plan is stupid because there is probably little reason for anyone to claim VT/a less useful role.

I'm happy with bvoigt's claim.

Unvote

I need to read a bit before voting, but because of PoE and certain claims, I don't plan on voting outside of

Bunny Lover, Factory Worker
Flameaxe, Dancer/Entertainer
Pops "ooba" Seaton, Junkie
Anahito Xvart, Teamster

[Zdenek]

Look, I'm an Army Veteran. The details of my role are vague. I don't even know if I die or not when attacked.

I think Cobbler's lynch claimed VTs/me plan is stupid because there is probably little reason for anyone to claim VT/a less useful role.

I'm happy with bvoigt's claim.
Unvote

I need to read a bit before voting, but because of PoE and certain claims, I don't plan on voting outside of

Bunny Lover, Factory Worker [

VT

]
Flameaxe, Dancer/Entertainer [

unclaimed

]
Pops "ooba" Seaton, Junkie [

Watcher

]
Anahito Xvart, Teamster [

VT

]

Uh-huh. Not so stupid now, eh?

That was a co-incidence.

[Zdenek]

Not that I'm in favor of it, but if we're lynching a claimed vig, Battousai is a better lynch than NS. Stories like his killing Andrius over a grudge come from town. Battousai's killings look more like ones that scum would do and try to pass off later as pro-town.

[Zdenek]

Not that I'm in favor of it, but if we're lynching a claimed vig, Battousai is a better lynch than NS. Stories like his killing Andrius over a grudge come from town. Battousai's killings look more like ones that scum would do and try to pass off later as pro-town.

AHAHAHAHAHA no.

Why?

[Zdenek]

I think Cobbler's lynch claimed VTs/me plan is stupid because there is probably little reason for anyone to claim VT/a less useful role.

So you're saying that scum would likely fakeclaim a power role?

Mostly, I think that they wouldn't fake claim vanilla in this game.

[Zdenek]

But you still find Bunnylover and xvart scummy despite their vanilla claims?

I don't find Bunnylover scummy, at the time I just couldn't find any good reason to exclude her from consideration as cult.
You'll have to wait for me to pass judgement on Xvart.

[Zdenek]

So Xvart is scummy for *knowing* that Cobblerfone is scum and then using that flip to line up Flameaxe's lynch. Of course Cobbler is probably town, so that implication won't apply, and is really just an attempt by Xvart to distance himself from Flameaxe.

Either of them can go today. Since there is more support for Xvart's lynch, I'll go there for now.

Vote Xvart

[Zdenek]

Not that I'm in favor of it, but if we're lynching a claimed vig, Battousai is a better lynch than NS. Stories like his killing Andrius over a grudge come from town. Battousai's killings look more like ones that scum would do and try to pass off later as pro-town.

Wow, lol. I killed people in a pro-town manor, therefore I am scum. NS didn't so that makes him town...


I also disagree with scum not fakeclaiming Vanilla. I mean, with so many PRs out there, it be easier than normal to be caught out in a lie about where you visited and what you did.

This is a scummy post. Battousai reacts to the fact that I'd be more suspicious of him than NS, by misinterpreting my post, and completely missing the point of my argument about why he appears scummier than NS. His second point is also terrible because even people claiming vanilla could be caught in a lie about where they went and what they did, unless they were recruited pre-game.

[Zdenek]

Tell me your point then. All I got out of it was that NS did something anti-town and I did something that was pro-town. I really don't see the difference.

No. NS killed Andrius for a stupid reason that scum would be loathe to give; whereas you killed off people who could justify killing off. I'm not arguing that either of you are scum (or pro-town for that matter) for what you've done, but I can hardly see scum NS explaining his actions in that way.

As reasons for voting someone goes, that one is pretty terrible, all around. It sounds like he's voting Xvart because he thinks Xvart is linked to Flameaxe, but we don't even know Flameaxe's alignment at this point, Zdenek hasn't even really made a case against Flameaxe. All in all, this just sounds to me like he's voting Xvart out of pure self preservation, he just wants to push a wagon that's not him/

I've tried to explain why I think Flameaxe is scum, but no one else seems to care about him at all, so I'm going to co-operate with others for now. Plus distancing can be a reliable scum-tell even before flips.

@Zdenek: Is there a reason you didn't just default back to Flameaxe after you unvoted bvoigt? Wait. Why did you unvote bvoigt?

bvoigt's flavor was corroborated by LLD, so he's very likely telling the truth about being unrecruitable. Of course there is a chance they are scum together, but doubt that's the case.

[Zdenek]

bvoigt appears to be voting me because I think Flameaxe is scum, which is a dumb reason. I really think that he's voting me because he thinks I'm scum every time we play together and can't help it.

NS is voting me as part of Cobblerfone's silly plan.

Yos is voting me because I didn't object to a mass-claim, because I've been V/LA and trying to outguess the mod.

ML is attacking me for making a careful and methodical post and being a little indecisive. His first point under later is vague and the lynch list issue was a coincidence.

I fail to see how any of this actually points to me being scum seeing as how thinking someone is scum is not scummy, based purely on the number of people in the game and and possible number of recruits a mass-claim was not clearly a bad idea, and being careful is not a scum-tell.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, what I was reading was a change in tone from first few days to later few days. You're 'careful' post didn't seem as forceful as you day one play had, with a lot of reads that felt like 'feeler' reads, testing the waters and talking sometimes for the sake of talking.

There was a good chance that I was in the process of catching up.

[Zdenek]

My view of this is that the wagon on me is a counter-wagon to the wagon on Xvart. If I was picking scum on my wagon, Flameaxe is my first choice, followed by Conspiracy. I'm a bit surprised that Yosarian's top suspects are me and Cobblerfone. It looks like he's just hunting for easy lynches, and he was a potential recruit pre-game.

[Zdenek]

I have nothing else to claim.

I guarantee that I am town.

[Zdenek]

Also, we've played two games together; you've been town once and scum once, but I've been wrong both times. Is that correct?

Oops yes. I misremembered a game with pappums rat for one with you.

Assume I am your cult master, and told you to kill Andrius. Now, days later it is time for mass claim. Tell me how scum would explain that kill to town.

For instance: I reread during the night and didn't like such and such . . . .

I'm willing to lynch Zdenek for his post about Battousai vs. NS.

Since there is nothing scummy about it, you are being ridiculous.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek- Don't give me that BS. Tell me how you would have gotten away with viging Andrius right now. What did Andrius post that made him look like scum?

That is not what I am arguing. I just don't think that scum would use the excuse for vigging someone that Nobody Special did. If you think scum would use that reason, show me an example of it.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek- Don't give me that BS. Tell me how you would have gotten away with viging Andrius right now. What did Andrius post that made him look like scum?

That is not what I am arguing. I just don't think that scum would use the excuse for vigging someone that Nobody Special did. If you think scum would use that reason, show me an example of it.

Couldn't think of a reason, I see. So, how about if he said it was from an earlier grudge? It's not the best reason, but it is more plausible than trying to call Andrius scum.

So, that pretty much confirms my suspicion on Zdenek. You made a throwaway comment, without having anything really to back it up. That is scum appearing to participate and scumhunt, when in actuallity is just actively lurk.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zdenek

Stating that you wouldn't support a lynch (in this case, that I wouldn't support NS's lynch) is not making a throwaway comment.

[Zdenek]

Magister (and Amrun for that matter, since she was on the xvart wagon), your willingness to vote for me seems pretty strange considering that you are on the xvart wagon. I know that I am not scum, but in general, the chances that the two lead wagons are on scum is pretty low in any game. There is of course the chance that we are both town, but if you think that xvart is scum, then it makes little sense to think that I am scum too.

[Zdenek]

Magister (and Amrun for that matter, since she was on the xvart wagon), your willingness to vote for me seems pretty strange considering that you are on the xvart wagon. I know that I am not scum, but in general, the chances that the two lead wagons are on scum is pretty low in any game. There is of course the chance that we are both town, but if you think that xvart is scum, then it makes little sense to think that I am scum too.

This is an appeal to probability, I believe. It reads like scum trying desperately to stay alive.

So townies shouldn't fight their lynches?

[Zdenek]

Magister (and Amrun for that matter, since she was on the xvart wagon), your willingness to vote for me seems pretty strange considering that you are on the xvart wagon. I know that I am not scum, but in general, the chances that the two lead wagons are on scum is pretty low in any game. There is of course the chance that we are both town, but if you think that xvart is scum, then it makes little sense to think that I am scum too.

This is an appeal to probability, I believe. It reads like scum trying desperately to stay alive.

So townies shouldn't fight their lynches?

Not with that crappy reasoning.

If I was suspicious of someone and suddenly a huge wagon appeared on another player, I'd have to have a damn good reason to switch to it because of the possibility that it was a counter-wagon by scum to prevent the lynch of one of their own.

[Zdenek]

It seems to me that considering some abilities could effect an entire location there could be good reasons for some people not to claim their home bases. On the other hand, provided that certain roles aren't recruited (namely the watcher) it might be a bad idea for scum to target these locations if they were claimed. I guess I'm fairly indifferent to whether everyone claims this or not.

LLD could very well be scum considering her massive change in play styles from earlier in the game and her corroboration of the incorruptible flavour could have been purely opportunistic. Her lack of activity in recent days as we get closer to a lynch is also fairly damning.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: ... Claimed "pharmacist", with a "50% chance of succeeding at protecting someone". Hasn't clarified what that means, but it doesn't really make any sense either. Why would Flay put in one single role with percentage chance of success into a game like this with no other roles like that? That would be a REALLY odd decision. I think he's probably lying cult as well.

Considering that my claim made complete sense, there really wasn't any clarification necessary (the only thing that he could have possibly been referring to was the chance that I was a cult-doc, but from flavor and the lack of modifier, it should have been clear that I was a regular doctor. His second reason is terrible too because not everyone has claimed yet so he can't possibly know whether there is another role like mine.

If you want to see a reaching argument to get someone lynched, there it is. Considering Yosarian's appeals to emotion day one to avoid being lynched, this makes me think that he was a pre-game recruit.