Mini 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia - Game over!

[implosion]

VOTE: don_johnson. He was town in the only other game I've played with him. Therefore, he has to be scum in this one. Foolproof logic is foolproof.

[implosion]

VOTE: implo
Lurking before the game even starts thus making me refresh this page so many goddamn times.

Hi Twisted ;D Not you Kalofer... you don't get a hi.

I don't post at school.

[implosion]

Oh. yeah, we were, but i died night one in one of them, so i forgot it. And you were scum in that one... lol. I was thinking of open 260. The one where you were scum is open 262, i think.

unvote

, VOTE: twistedspoon
Is the goal of the RVS to get out of the RVS? If so, why does the RVS exist in the first place? Must every post in the RVS make an attempt to leave it?

[implosion]

Oopidstay is town.
Discuss.

question for all: do you find it more difficult to random vote when you are scum, or when you are town?

Neither in particular. I don't find random voting difficult.

[implosion]

His lingering selfvote. It is one of two things.
1) it comes from scum. Unlikely. Why? Because scum are overly paranoid. With 3 people voting for him, he would unvote at this point if he were scum. It could also be WIFOM, but that's somewhat unlikely.
2) it comes from town. He's fishing for reactions, and looking for what people will say about his selfvote.

Juls; how does a selfvote imply mafia? You're saying that if he's town, he's voting a confirmed townie; isn't he voting a confirmed person of his own alignment regardless of that alignment? Why does that make him more likely to be mafia?

[implosion]

1) is a pile of WIFOM (as you indicate)
2) what people feel about self-voting has nothing to do with alignment. There are much better ways of fishing for reaction then being idiotic. It is generally considered a votable offense (to me at least) if you self vote, unless it is a self-hammer as scum.

Right now, it's the worst vote out there. I have no reason to move my vote until he proves himself.

1; it theoretically could be scum wifoming. It doesn't look like that to me. It both looks genuine and is one third of a wagon on him that could potentially lead to an accidental lynch. If he were scum, he would likely be paranoid about something like this and wind up unvoting shortly after he voted. If he had done so, I wouldn't have a townread on him. On the other hand, if he's town, he would be less afraid since if something like that happens, it would provide the town with good info (i.e. hammering without claim/etc on an RVS wagon would be scummy).
2; talking about you rather than oopidstay, the way in which you are attacking him is actually looking scummy to me. The last sentence of your second point looks very contrived; it seems like you're voting him because people find selfvoting to be a good way to justify a vote (as is shown by don's last post), not because you think it makes him legitimately scummy. Especially since you admit that WIFOM is, in the end, involved - and therefore this alone isn't enough to figure out oopid's alignment.

is not a fact. please don't phrase it as though it is logic. you're 1 and 2 are probably just as likely(hence, null).

I basically said why I think town is more likely above. And no, there are very rarely facts in the world of mafia. However (as I justified above) oopid's behavior makes more sense as town. I agree that juls has every right to vote him for selfvoting; however, I find it somewhat scummy. It's an easy vote to make.

inb4 someone posts a picture of a chainsaw

[implosion]

juls: i'm not attempting to make him "auto-town" - I'm stating a town read on him. P-edit is a fair point to an extent; but you really can't say what you would do in that situation. You aren't the kind of person who would put yourself in a situation like this in the first place. I understand the kind of thought process that would lead to a situation like this (to an extent, it'll be cleared up a bit by oopid's answer to don's question). The kind of person that selfvotes as scum generally (probably) wouldn't argue that it's not a bad move as scum, as that would make them look conspicuous and the point of an RVS selfvote as scum is to make yourself look like town (or wifom) while there is still little risk of pressure. I would expect a scum whose selfvote accrued more votes to go "whoa, whoa" and unvote, possibly followed by accusations on the people that voted for them.

Regardless, I definitely want to see the answer to don's question.

[implosion]

Implosion, I'm actually not getting good vibes from. His defense of me is awfully strong for early-game information, and I'm not all that keen on how he keeps leaving room for changing stances in #38.

I am defending you, because I have a town read on you. I also don't see what's strange about leaving room for changing stances - this post was halfway into page two. Stances aren't going to be well-developed at this point.

Omgus much?

I get the rest of this post, but how is his vote omgus? Multiple people voted for him, and he explained why he voted for you over juls.

1) to apply pressure obv. It seems to have worked. If you want my opinion on others though I think there might be one scum on my wagon. Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

What? The post where i vote you:

unvote, VOTE: twistedspoon
Is the goal of the RVS to get out of the RVS? If so, why does the RVS exist in the first place? Must every post in the RVS make an attempt to leave it?

How is this an overreaction, at all? What is it an overreaction to? There was no pressure on me - how could i overreact to anything?

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with the implosion sheeping too. I've played with implosionscum before. this is similar

This is not similar to that game at all. I was lurking like hell that game because I had no idea what I was doing and was busy. Trying to equate my play here with my play in advance wars is just wrong... calling my play sheeping is even MORE wrong.

Who did i sheep?

point rescinded since you didn't realize i voted first, see below.

first vote or not it was still a complete overreaction to me pointing out that a self-vote isn't exactly that helpful. But I want to move on from the self-vote topic for now. I'm prepared to go along with the reaction fishing story.

I shall concede the point that I forgot implosion was the first vote though. My memory had oop as voter #1. nvm

An overreaction to you pointing out that a self-vote isn't helpful... well, first of all, it's clearly rocketed us into this entire discussion, I'd call that helpful. But more importantly... I quoted the post in which I voted you above. How is it, in any way, shape, or form, an overreaction to anything? I moved my vote from an RVS vote to an information-gaining vote as it was more useful there. You seem to be stating that simply voting you in such a way is an overreaction by merit of it being a vote on you, which reads to me as overdefensive. Also, did you think Kalofer was the first vote on your wagon? Why would you think that - there was a fair amount of content between our votes on you. Were you not reading closely?

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

Town, by far.

[implosion]

Page four reads

TOWN (strong to weak)
implosion
oopidstay
wickedestjr

NULL (town to scum, vaguely)
kalofer (leaning town)
morthas (leaning town weakly)
theplague (wholly null)
don_johnson (wholly null)
juls (leaning scum weakly)

SCUM
Twistedspoon

No other scum reads really strong enough to put in that category at this point. Juls is the closest, but it's unlikely that both she and TS are scum.

[implosion]

Twistedspoon: is it a coincidence that your main suspects are Kalofer and I (the first two people that voted you) or would you say that you suspect us for having voted you?

[implosion]

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

I meant to ask this before but: is there a specific reason that you directed this question to me specifically, and if so, what is that reason?

I'm also beginning to think that juls and wicked is TvT. Juls's 116 reads fairly well to me. TS is still scum.

Don: what do you think of TS? What do you think of Wicked?

@Wicked: I don't like how you say Kalofer and Oopid are scum, never folow it up, debate/talk with Twisted where you DON'T think he's scum (point being you don't ask Kalofer/Oopid a single question) (FoS doesn't count, since you already stated who you think are scum and are voting for them which says you are convinced)

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

Strikes me as a way to try and not look like you are focusing on Twisted completely

Explain this more, please.

There is too much WIFOM on Twisted for now so
VOTE: Oopid

How is there WIFOM on TS? How is there

not

wifom on oopid, the guy that selfvoted?

[implosion]

Morthas, you implied that the reason that you didn't vote for twistedspoon was because there was wifom on him. By the same logic, there's clearly wifom on oopid, so why vote him instead of twistedspoon?

[implosion]

...

so, wanna explain why you just hammered without a claim?

[implosion]

don, I think you're thinking of traitor... neighbors are alignment-unconfirmed masons.
I agree with oopid, the second neighbor should claim. I'd suspect that kalofer told his scumbuddy who they are anyway.
Juls and TS look decidedly more like town with a kalofer scum flip.
Last scum is probably either morthas or plague.
VOTE: morthas

[implosion]

Last scum is probably either morthas

or plague

.

Why plague?

I feel like I've eliminated everyone else for weak reasons (hence the probably, since some of the reasons are really weak).

Juls' hammer is obviously a towntell since it fell on scum and it would be pretty insane for scum to hammer their partner that early in a 9-person game, where we either only have 2 scum or the town had a ridiculous amount of power. Either way, it would be way too risky for scum to hammer, most likely. Oopid, I still think the selfvote is a towntell. TS looks less like scum after the way that he was pushing kalofer on day one with the flip. I still have a town read on wicked in general. I liked don's reaction to the hammer (this is probably one of the weakest reasons though). I really haven't seen anything from plague that makes me think he's town, even as weakly as someone like don.

Unvote, vote: plague

for now.

[implosion]

whether you agree with his suspicions of Juls or not is irrelevant. Suspecting Juls, the most ruthless (and obvtown according to oopid) player in this game would be a suicidal thing for scum to do.

I disagree. don's push on Juls could come from either alignment, I think. It could be town legitimately concerned that Juls becomes pseudo-obvtown from the hammer as scum, or scum trying to push a lynch that won't be pushable later on.

@plague: null hypotheses are more commonly referred to as PoE (process of elimination) and what I was doing is basically a weaker form of PoE. The issue is that nothing is

ever

"provable" in mafia. PoE is a legitimate way to find scum for those that are more apt at townhunting than scumhunting.

I'm not sure why implosion excluded Wicked. I think Wicked is a pretty strong candidate for scum.

Many of his day one posts gave me fairly strong town vibes. I can elaborate if necessary.

I had some questions for don, but he answered them in his last post, and I now believe him to be town more strongly. I still like my vote on plague.

[implosion]

Yeah. Sketch = sketchy afaik. Don, what do you mean that I'm the most cooperative?

[implosion]

juls's dream made me laugh. I want to hear from wicked before anyone hammers.

[implosion]

I just realized that we pretty much need to let him claim before hammering him in case he claims to be the doctor. We'd lose not only him but his save if that was the case.

Also, plague's last post is very, very scummy - terrible thing to criticize someone for, and it just reeks of setting up a mislynch.

[implosion]

I still think it's plague :\

[implosion]

The point on TS is interesting, though. His interaction with kalofer is what makes me think he's more likely town right now.

[implosion]

Come to think of it, Twisted could be his usual townie self but I'm not in the mood of letting go of scummy actions which lack justification. I'll keep my vote where it is for now. Plague, you've clearly focused your attention on TS, so why no vote for him?

This post (page four) makes me think that TS is town as well. Kalofer doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would bus TS by asking townies to vote for him this early. It could, however, be a distancing attempt with plague - kind of distancing/coaching sort of, and telling him "hey, lets mislynch TS."

As for wicked, I may as well explain my day one townread on him. His reads post looks fine too, but the reason I've had a town read on him for most of the game is that his scumhunting looked genuine.

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

This post, for example, makes a lot of sense if wicked is town, and stuck out to me. The question makes sense directed to me - at least, I see it as an attempt to discern my play here as either similar to or different from my frogs 2 play, and whether that difference is indicative of me being town.

His kalofer vote (and other reactionary votes) also looked genuine to me.

P-edit: I listed one thing kalofer said above. And yes, his vote was late on the wagon - it was also the L-1 vote. The way in which he was pushing kalofer and myself before the vote was part of it as well.

[implosion]

I'm good with a massclaim. What juls said is fine with oopid's claim in mind.

If we're doing popcorn, we popcorn-style claim it, but a list is fine too. A list would probably expedite it a bit.

[implosion]

I'm VT. I honestly don't see myself as having been "laying low" in this game - I've explained my opinions and tried to push the plague lynch yesterday (and the twisted wagon on day one). With these claimed night actions (assuming there's no other claims that could explain consecutive nokills) I'm fine with being lynched. With oopid's claim in mind:

-oopid is more likely scum than before. His selfvote makes less sense as a power role, since as a power role he would probably be concerned about his staying alive and would be less inclined to selfvote.
-twisted and plague are obviously both more likely town. Plague godfather is still feasible. I still see TS as town.
-don (assuming I'm lynched and flip town) is more likely scum than before. I really don't feel like i would have been killed last night (though it's possible), and I know that me being blocked wasn't the reason for the lack of a kill. I definitely think morthas would have been killed night one.

I also have a theory in the back of my head that it's 3:6 and scum don't have a nightkill, which would make don pretty much automatic scum and oopid very likely scum. It's unlikely, but it's a theory that got into my head after the second nokill.

More after the massclaim is done.

[implosion]

implosion is the lynch today. There was a lot of straw-grasping in that last post of his.

Debating whether to hold the vote until massclaim is finished...

Frankly, based on night actions, this is the kind of situation where I would think I was scum if I didn't know that I'm not. If I look like I'm grasping at straws, that's why. I'm, again, fine with being lynched based on claimed night actions, but I'd like to help with the night action plan before that. I'd like to do that after TS claims for the most part, but I'll assume that he claims vanilla townie.

Anyway, here's my plan:

Oopidstay should investigate don_johnson tonight.

Why? Well, first of all, if he is scum we want to catch him early. He's going to be pivotal in the nightgame. After don, he should investigate juls then morthas. Actually, possibly morthas then juls. If I'm not lynched today, he should investigate me or don tonight. The downside is the possibility of don dying, but I discuss this below. There is a specific reason, which is the fact that don's role could be confirmable.

Claims

:

VT - implosion, juls, plague.
Jailkeeper - don
Cop - oopid
Neighbor - morthas
waiting - TS

After I'm lynched, don has a few jailing choices. He shouldn't jail morthas or oopid. He should jail a vanilla townie claim,

who he announces before the lynch today.

We'll assume two mafia. So, at this point there are two obvious possibilities. Either someone will or no one will die at night. This dichotomy is illustrated below:

If there is no nightkill

- lynch the person that don jailed. Don declares another target and jails them. At this point in the game, the living claims would be (assuming TS VT claim):

Jailkeeper, cop, neighbor, 3 VT claims (juls plague TS)

You'll lynch the VT claim that don jailed. Lets say it's plague for simplicity, and that he declares he'll jail TS:

Jailkeeper, cop, neighbor, VT, jailed VT going into night.

At this point, we again see the dichotomy of there being or not being a kill. IF THERE IS NO KILL, there will be 5 alive and probably a mislynch. That mislynch should be used on the jailed. If they flip town, the living claims will be: VT, jk, cop, neighbor. At this point, the cop should have investigated don and gotten town (if they got mafia, don should be dead by now). At this point,

don would jail oopidstay.

If don died, the VT would be scum. If oopid died, don would be scum. If the vanilla townie died, don would be scum. If no one dies OR if the neighbor dies, then there's a very simple test to determine scum. Ask oopid if he was roleblocked. If he was roleblocked, this means that don is role confirmed and is likely not a godfather, meaning the innocent on him can be trusted - furthermore, since he was roleblocked, he can't be scum. So if the cop confirms being roleblocked, lynch the VT. If the cop denies it, lynch don, since the cop is clear from having been blocked. That all works if the neighbor died. If no one died, ask the same question. If he agrees that he was blocked, don is essentially clear. Lynch the cop, jail the vanilla townie, lynch the vanilla townie. If the cop denies being blocked, then either don is a gambiting godfather or oopid is scum. At this point, the vanilla townie and the neighbor would have to figure out who's scum between don and oopid.

If there is a nightkill - treat the person that don jailed as confirmed town. They are unless it's 3 scum. If it is 3 scum and no nightkills, by the way, don and oopid could very well both be scum. A jailkeeper would not make sense in that situation (protection would be useless) and a cop would break the game - unless there's a godfather, which is also possible.

Anyway, back to the plan. If there's a nightkill, it would almost definitely fall on a power role claim. If oopid is nightkilled: you have essentially confirmed innocents in the jailkeep target and the neighbor, which would hopefully be enough to win. If don is nightkilled: oopid would have wasted a night investigation. You still have confirmed innocents in morthas and [jailkeep target], though, which would hopefully be enough. If morthas is nightkilled: don's jailkept VT is clear. If oopid investigated don and got town, you can use the above method of lynching a vanilla townie claim and having don jailkeep oopid to try to role-confirm himself. If don dies, 2 clears out of 3 players. If oopid died, don would be lying scum. So either there would be a counterclaim or town would win.

At this point, basically, if TS claims VT and the scum isn't in {Oopid, don} we're in VERY good shape. If TS claims a power role, then that gives us even MORE to work with, which would be awesome.

The above plan in short:

Every day, don needs to declare who he's going to jail before there is a lynch. Once the game goes down to four players going into night, or possibly even earlier, don can jail oopid to role-confirm himself, since it's unlikely that an individual mafioso would be both a godfather and a roleblocker or jailkeeper. It isn't impossible, but it's relatively unlikely. If oopid denies it, there will be a counter-claim. The downside is that the plan makes several assumptions, including:

-morthas is town.
-the mafia is not immune to roleblocking or protection.

The upside is that it doesn't assume that the mafia isn't a godfather. If the above assumptions are true, then the plan has close to sure success if oopid and don are both town. Otherwise, they'll probably wind up as counterclaimants.

Thoughts?

[implosion]

@Twistedspoon: I agree that don is probable town. We cannot, however, instantly write him off as clear.

implosion, your plan is easily thwarted by scum. Let's say we tell Don to jail me. The mafia can then just No kill to make it look like I was the one who did the kill. We don't learn anything from it. If they go the other route and just straight up kill don then we lose one of our mislynches. I have to think now that all the claims are in that both Oopid and don are being truthful. That means town has two power roles and a neighbor (which is more of a weakness to us than a help). I think we lynch implosion today and go from there. As it stands right now we can mislynch twice and then still have 3-way LYLO.

Ah, but it isn't... my "there's no kill" plan works whether or not you're scum. Lets say we lynch me, jail you, mafia no kill and the town lynches you. that's five people going into night: don, oopid, morthas, twisted, plague. At this point, don jails oopid, actually. If no one dies, you simply ask oopid if he was roleblocked. If he says no, lynch don then oopid. If he says yes, don is cleared and you lynch oopid and don jails between the last VTs (again announcing his result). Lets say that he jails the wrong VT but mafia nokill - then lynch that VT, and don jails the other VT with 3 people going into night. If don dies, oopid would be clear and we'd have a confirmed scum godfather or scum neighbor. If someone else died, oopid would still be clear and you can ask him if he was roleblocked to clear don.

Sure, it isn't foolproof, but I think it drastically increases winning odds. Cop+jailkeeper+neighbor sounds fairly balanced, so I'm willing to believe all of the PR claims. I also happen to think that plague is godfatherscum, but if he is, the plan would most likely catch him. If don is town, he should think a fair amount about who he jails (but MAKE SURE to announce it publicly) and try to jail scum.

[implosion]

My plan was assuming that I'd be lynched today. It works with a lynch on any VT claim.

[implosion]

don jailkeeping oopid is a bad idea, i think. we want investigations.

As for juls's version of the plan (416): the only flaw (which is rather obvious) is the assumption that oopid and don are both towh. In the "yes" scenario, the scum wouldn't kill oopid in night - they would leave him alive and try to lynch him if he's town. Or he could be scum, in which case your plan obviously fails.

The reasoning behind either don jailkeeping oopid at some point or oopid investigating don at some point is to clear them. Y'know, if there is a kill, it is probably going to be on don if he's town... if it isn't, we'd have 2 clears and a jailkeeper claim still alive.

What would people think about oopid investigating morthas tonight? I'm frankly a bit paranoid the more i think of neighbor-neighbor both scum, in which case an investigation on morthas (if morthas would scum) would force morthas to kill oopid. If morthas is scum and killed oopid, then we would have a 100% clear townie (the jailkeepee) and it might be safe to lynch morthas and have don jail, maybe. The thing is, I have significant town reads irrespective of roleclaims on every player except plague and morthas. Two scum neighbors isn't impossible - it honestly is probably a good thing to not assume that morthas is town.

Juls, what would you think about oopid investigating morthas?

[implosion]

cop+neighbor or jailkeeper+neighbor VS 2 scum in 9p is probably imbalanced. neighbor+cop+jailkeeper or cop+jailkeeper VS 2 essentially vanilla scum wouldn't be imbalanced, IMO. So they're more likely, so oopid and don are probably both town.

P-EDIT: plague, if don announces the jailkeep target beforehand, then successful protections and mafia no-kills can be treated equivalently. If he announces it, the scum would have no reason to kill that target so they might as well nokill instead if that's what they plan to do.

[implosion]

plague, whether it was a roleblock or a protection, it would be due to the jailkeeper.
Juls, neighbors are not masons. Neighbors are alignment-unconfirmed masons.
Twisted, I guess they thought I was a power role. I wouldn't have killed me. I really don't know.

[implosion]

There are only three possible explanations that I can think of for the lack of kills.

1) don prevented them both. The most likely.
2) donscum is faking jailkeeper and no-killed twice to substantiate his claim. A fair amount less likely.
3) scum have no kill, which would make don likely scum. This is however the least likely possibility.

[implosion]

Calling them neighbors would just be semantics because obviously in a 9 person game you would only have one scum team which basically makes them Scum Masons. How exactly would they be alignment unconfirmed as both scum?

Masons are alignment-confirmed neighbors. I see what you mean, but the term mason only applies to pro-town roles. And regardless, Kalofer flipped neighbor.

I get that your argument is that if Morthas was also scum, they would be called masons and not neighbors (at least i think that's what you're saying) but masons are strictly pro-town afaik. Actually, I shouldn't say that since I was in a scum-mason group once, but we didn't know we were scum and it was a theme SO. In normal terms, i'm pretty sure masons have to be town.

This is kind of no true scotsman, but masons are generally thought of as a group of players who are all town and all know that each other are town. Neighbors are a group of players who can night-talk, and that's the only special thing about that group of players. They could, theoretically, be alignment-confirmed to each other for reasons outside the neighborhood (like having one be a cop and investigate another, or having two neighbors be scum together and just using the "neighbor" designation to indicate that they can chat).

It's still unlikely, but I don't think it's impossible.

[implosion]

jailing and investigating the same person is definitely bad. It would essentially squander two pseudo-confirmations on the same person. If there was a kill, juls would be clear with or without a cop innocent.

Lynch me, jail juls, investigate morthas. I think it's the best plan (well obviously, I'd rather lynch someone else, but in this situation I'm going to be lynched at some point if we don't get scum first).

Also, godfather doesn't really screw every plan. We have to use a combination of role-info and scumhunting to find scum. We are definitely

not

going to play follow-the-cop.

VOTE: plague. I still think he's the most likely scum, even with oopid's claim. I still can't see juls hammering that lynch on a scumbuddy... when I flip town if i'm lynched, then the best move would be (IMO):

oopid investigates morthas, don jails juls.

Are people okay with that plan for tonight?

[implosion]

This is kind of an annoying situation. I'm like 95ish% sure that juls, don, and oopid are all town just based on towntells. That means that it's most likely either a godfather or scum neighbors. I really think it's a godfather.

It's annoying... the only think that would make this game make sense is if plague is godfather. Nothing else makes sense. Everyone else has to be town >_>.

Juls: jailing you and don dying is by no means at all a waste - it would clear you. Why exactly is it a waste?

[implosion]

How does your lynch keep don alive?

[implosion]

WHOA BABY

-don

(assuming I'm lynched and flip town)

is more likely scum than before.

Does anyone else read that as something town wouldn't say, or is it just me?

If I'm lynched, I will flip town. When I said this, I was thinking from a neutral point of view (e.g. all of yours). If I'm lynched, it would make don a bit more likely scum to everyone else because it would be odd for me to be nightkilled. However, after further consideration I think that the fact that don is just a generically strong townread combined with balance thoughts makes him very likely town, which would mean i was nightkilled. After thinking about it a bit more, I still find it a little odd but not hugely so. Thinking from a scum's perspective: people had suspicions of twisted and plague, juls and oopid probably didn't look like power roles, and morthas was the neighbor. So don and I would make sense as nightkills, and the scum could have thought i was a power role over don.

[implosion]

Also, godfather doesn't really screw every plan. We have to use a combination of role-info and scumhunting to find scum. We are definitely not going to play follow-the-cop.

[implosion]

Rocking, I bah bah.

[implosion]

oh, and if hoppster can get away with this then my next mini normal will have 8

death

millers, 2 cops and 3 mafia

death

godfathers.

FTFY

(although really, I don't think the setup was bad for having two mafia neighbors)

Though yeah, it should have been easy on the last day (it was). Juls was clear from having been jailkept the night of a kill (i have no idea what the roleblocker theory was, hoppster SAID that RB vs JK = no kill) and don was clear from the brute fact that if he were scum, he'd have endgamed Juls and Morthas. I would have been a very sad panda if that ended in a failure.

Also, oopidstay's death should have been at least a mild indicator of morthas as scum, seeing as a godfather scum would have literally no reason to kill him over don, whereas I think i told oopid to investigate morthas (which he did, so morthas did the right thing killing him).

[implosion]

Post the Role PMs, please.

he did in post 689.