Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[Barry Allen]

Glad we're getting started. Barry Allen reporting in.

[Barry Allen]

Actually, I was planning to vote for the next person to post...too bad you beat me to the punch XD.

[Barry Allen]

VOTE: barry allen for being faster than me

VOTE: Hiplop for being slower than me. XD

[Barry Allen]

I agree it's time to go past RVS time and sooo....

UNVOTE

Now, I'll...

VOTE: jilynne1991 For continuing to give LOL/RVS reasons for a vote after we have clearly gone past RVS time.

[Barry Allen]

Has anyone heard from our aquatic player (Deuxieme Octopus)? We all seem to be here except for one. In the meantime, I really want to hear from jilynne...maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

[Barry Allen]

@ Barry Allen - What do you think of Demon Hybrid's play?

bobby What are you thoughts on his play/ what did you want from my answer? Feels like a filler question to make you look useful at this point

It does feel like a filler question...but to answer it anyway, I do see DemonHybrid as playing aggressively, but I don't see that as being scum in and of itself. That being said, I don't have a strong read either way right now as it is still so early in D1. The reaction to DemonHybrid is equally strong (if not more so), so I will continue to watch this back-and-forth with interest.

But for now, I'm still waiting for a response from Jillyne that addresses the pressure votes. I can't shake the feeling that you are simply stalling and waiting for everyone's attention to be drawn elsewhere, rather than responding to the fact that the votes went as high as L-2 (I think it is L-3 right now). I would like to hear from Jillyne more before deciding whether to take the pressure off or leave it there.

[Barry Allen]

I have a job that keeps me on the road quite a bit. My last few posts have been from the hotel, and unfortunately I missed a rather important post while logging on and posting this morning. Even though the vote has moved on, I think it is important to address it. Ace called me out for supposedly bandwagoning on jillyne and for "lack of content", before moving on and voting bob.

Please let me point out to the 10th player out of 13 players to join the thread (that's you, Ace) that I was the

second

vote on jillyne out of what was eventually as many as 5 votes. I stated my reasons at the time and never heard a defense, so I asked for more info. That later post is what Ace used to claim I was BWing jillyne. That's not bandwagoning, that's playing the game. As far as bandwagoning...let's look at your own earlier post, Ace...

I like the jilynne wagon

but can't post in bold from my phone, incoming vote in like two hours barring significant developments.

I realize this is just D1 and great cases are hard to find. But, Ace seems to be throwing accusations without really reading the thread well. Ace doesn't even seem to recall his own earlier stands when throwing around votes. Hopefully that will change as we move forward, but it does bear further watching as we move through the round.

[Barry Allen]

For the wagon vote, I didn't dislike the wagon vote because you were on the wagon, I didn't like the post because you felt the need to restate exactly what Heliman had said in different words. It felt like you were trying to make it look like you actually made up reasoning. Of course you could have just been clarifying that Heliman's reason was why you were voting, that's just what it felt like to me. The main reason I quoted that post was to show that it was a wagon vote; you didn't spearhead the case.

First of all, to my latecomer Ace who only started his

own

content when he decided to misread the thread and vote for me...my vote was the second one on jill out of 5 votes. My later post was not restating someone else, it was stating my own concern that jill had not (and

still

has not for that matter) defended herself. Now, let's go back to your quote...

However, your second (non-RVS) post is the one I had more issue with:

maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

I don't see why you would post this less than 4 hours since she was at L-2. It seems like you're either trying to make Jil look scummier than she is or look way too hard for something to post just for the sake of making a post.

I was considering that there were far more hours than 4 since the votes had started on jill, yet no defense had been posted. The time zone note was just placing one caveat to my concern, but still pressuring jill to finally step up and defend herself, something that has yet to happen.

Now let's analyze this recent post:

1. Only content is replying to my vote on you.
2. Overly defensive.
3. Last part of the post is slightly OMGUS-y.

1. Actually, Ace posted very little content before going after me. Most of Ace's posts were quick one-or-two liners after quotes of others, with little real contribution to the discussion. Certainly there has been more "content" in coming after me, and later Bob, but that's been about it.
2. Ace, I've only defended myself...something several of us have been asking Jill to do for some time. It's not being defensive, it's called putting on a defense when you are accused and you respond.
3. This is where Ace is being overly defensive. If I were ready to FoS you I would have done so.

For your next post:

Top 3 scum reads and why (I also have no idea why archaebob doesn't like this question and I also don't care).

I am watching hiplops swings back and forth in posting, Jill's lack of defense, and am debating a 3rd read...I'd like to get a chance off the road to re-read the thread before posting that. In the meantime, what are your top 3, Ace? You've backed off Bob and seem to be focusing on just me, but surely you have additional reads so let's hear them as well.

One last note...there seems to be a lot of attention given to jillyne's age. I don't believe that to be a valid factor, as I've seen people that age play exceptionally well in other rounds. I'm one of the oldest players on this site (as well as on the other sites where I play mafia), and do not believe that to be an advantage...in fact I've had my hat handed to me by players that age before, so I'm simply playing the round and taking each player seriously. In fact, I don't pay attention to the demographic info for a player (as that may or may not be accurate), but rather I watch the actual game play to make my own determinations.

[Barry Allen]

@ Ace - you wanted me to post what I saw as swinging back and forth with hiplop's posts. I'll add that info here, but will also note that while I was re-reading the thread for this post hiplop went V/LA. I do want to hear from hiplop upon his return, but also feel it important to add my observations while I have my notes from the re-reading at hand.

Before I do that, though....

UNVOTE Jil

Jil never did really defend herself, but it is obvious that continuing to press won't get us anywhere at this point. Now, let's get back to hiplop, and why I do have an FoS toward him:

1. After a couple of RVS votes, hiplop flipped to a vote on Bob for "taking everything too seriously" (which sounded to me as his first pressure vote...though later in response to DH, hiplop claims this was a joke-vote).
2. Afterward, hiplop switched to a vote on DemonHybrid, later claiming he was "the only one voting DH, I'm thinking for myself." (That was not true - hiplop was actually the third vote on DH, with all three votes still active at the time).
3. Later, he returns to vote Bob, without explaining the vote at the time (although there had been some back and forth with bob prior to the revote).
4. Later, hiplop states about bob, "unfortunately you're town" and votes giitah with the only case being "somethings not sitting right with you"

Then came a lot of dancing around on the subject of what meta information is valid and what is not. This started with a post where hiplop contradicted himself in the same post, telling bob "meta won't cut it" and then noting Jil's age as being something that could explain her play. Hiplop was called out on that by other players, and wound up in a series of explanations involving "psycho-graphic characteristics" versus other meta information. The explanations didn't make sense and frankly didn't ring true - it seemed more like being caught in a contradiction and trying to explain why you were OK in spite of your own words.

One other observation - early in the phase Heliman noted potentially "purposeful" typos on the part of hiplop. I didn't think much of that at the time, as a lot of players post with loose spelling and grammar. But, I did find it interesting that when getting fired up on DH, hiplop suddenly markedly improved in both grammar and spelling. It wasn't perfect...but it was MUCH better. Posts 114, 115 and 128 get increasingly better in terms of typing (again not perfect, but compare it to earlier posts). Then, things start to go back to prior typing style for the most part. That is a bit meta...and of course according to hiplop only psycho-graphic data is useful...but it is an interesting note.

Now, does this all add up to scum? It's not hard evidence, so I would like to hear more from hiplop upon his return.

[Barry Allen]

I still have my prior stated concerns about hiplop's back-and-forth. However, I do think it fair to let hiplop come back from V/LA and post a defense before casting a vote that way.

[Barry Allen]

post incoming t-minus 1 hour?

You were gonna make a post last night... And you broke your promise (so far) to be an active player...
Vote: Scumhunter

At least so you will actually post this time...

I thought the post from nintendoaddict was a bit early....until that hour went by with STILL no promised post. I'm not voting yet...but it is time to keep your word scumhunter.

[Barry Allen]

OK - there is something I need to fix with my time zone here...when my last post went up it was 9:50 a.m. my time, and judging by the time stamp I thought there was an hour that had gone by...but by the time stamp on

my

post I need to fix the time zone setting on this site for me...still, we need that post scumhunter...

[Barry Allen]

@ Scumhunter...glad to see you post, even though I may not agree with all your conclusions. I do have a question and some comments, though...

Question: You have a "null" read on Pine but you like Octupus's vote on Pine. Why?

Comments:
You may have a real point on Jil. Your note of the "1991" in the name is interesting. It's still somewhat meta, and since I have noted being handed my hat by younger players it doesn't change how I feel about Jil's affiliation. Whether Jil is a 13 year old girl or a much older male has no bearing on affiliation. btw, my removing my vote because the pressure wasn't working was a reference to the fact that Jil had gone all the way to L-2 and was down to only 2 votes (one of them mine) without ever having defended herself. There was certainly interference from other players (including at least one player stating that they were purposely messing with the pressure on Jil), but the bottom line was that I had to realize my vote was not going to result in anything useful to the town at this time. I have not quit suspecting Jil, I simply moved on to do other scumhunting since the players were obviously not of a mind to continue pressing Jil.

As for your stand on hiplop, I disagree. I find hiplop's posting style somewhat suspicious, much in the way you suspect Jil of pretending to be 13. Please go back and look at how hiplop's typos and grammar seemed to get much better when getting defensive/angry, then later went back to the looser grammar and spelling of earlier posts. Again that's a bit meta, but I'm still waiting for hiplop to respond to my (and other's) earlier posts before making a judgment call there.

I would like to hear more - like your answer to my question above. Some of your observations leave a little room for a head-scratching response (such as declaring someone likely town who has barely posted, and liking that person's vote for a "null" read). But, I want to see more from you before I make a call on you.

[Barry Allen]

@ Barry Allen -

I imagine you disagree with me on this point, but it is always pro-town to have your vote on someone during Day 1, regardless of how strong your suspicions are. The danger of a quick lynch is very low, and votes contribute to information and force you to stake out a position.

Please vote someone, preferably Deuxieme Octopus.

I held off on my vote due to waiting for hiplop to come back and reply/defend before I did anything else. That being said, I have no problem with a little pressure on the 8-legged player in the meantime. I don't like the lack of contribution, as it does prevent us from being able to have any sort of read. So, for now...I don't mind making the vote:

VOTE: Deuxieme Octopus

@ Octopus - if you want to play, please play. If not, please replace out.

[Barry Allen]

@ Barry Allen -

Good man. Do you have a town meta on this site? If so, please link it here, I'd like to look at it.

This is only my third round on the site - I played a newbie round as town and a later mini-normal as SK. Here's a link to the newbie round (if you want the rest just let me know). Newbie Round 1048

If you want a more in-depth look at my play, you can check out my wiki (link is in my sig) or go directly to my home mafia site, vendetta-strada.com. That site represents a merger of three other mafia sites, and it's a good place to play if you want a little faster pace that isn't lightning-speed EM (shameless plug XD).

[Barry Allen]

Glad to see you're back, hiplop. As you read the thread I think you'll find several things that need a reply. I'll wait until you do to say anything further regarding you.

[Barry Allen]

Honestly, can we get over this?

I'd like to....but let's look at your responses first...

1. Yea, it was a joke vote. I guess there was some merit to it, but for the most part it wasnt serious at all.

Barry's note: The original vote looked serious at the time, and you went back to that same vote later, so I don't get the "not serious" part of this, other than it looks like flip-flopping.

2. Only one voting him for a serious reason, others were RVS iirc (not 100% sure on this)

Barry's note: That was not your statement at the time...you stated you were the

only

player voting DH, not the only

serious

vote on DH.

3. The back and forth was the explanation, really. You're grasping too hard for little details.

Barry's note - you agree that there was back and forth, and that's what caught my attention.

4. I don't like being wrong, i was pursuing Bob up to that point, and i realized i was wrong. Giitah is definitely still on my scum-list. Shes active-lurking/trying to appear useful, without actually doing anything.

Barry's note: You are now explaining your vote. What had my attention was that you did not explain your note at the time.

@grammar thing; that is lame logic. Idk if you're in my timezone, but those posts were made at like 12/1/2 am. I was very tired, plus i'm a busy person + lots of games, so i kind of have to either type perfectly, or catc h scum. And i'd rather do the latter Whats suspicious about my play,

exactly?

i know i defended Jillyiane kind of, but its because i didnt think she could defend herself. It was a bad move on my part, admittedly.

Barry's Note: I didn't say it was "proof" but I did think it was interesting. I also note your typing and grammar are much improved in this post...which is again when you are defending yourself. Of course it isn't proof - you could just be paying better attention when on the defensive...but it is odd that your posting "voice" changes back and forth in the thread.

What do you think of all this?

I know this will sound stupid, unfortunately. I hate suspecting the people who are on my tail, but at the moment, itd be barry allen. Hes clinging way too hard to my wagon. The same could be said about demon hunter (not on me, though). Bob you worded it perfectly a few pages back, they've found some small details that they can keep mentioning and hope for a policy lynch. Its between DK and Barry. I definitely take back any suspicions i might have had on bob, dudes a machine.

Barry's Note: OMGUS, and just to note here, hiplop, I haven't voted you yet. Further, I have been withholding judgment on you and chose not to vote you specifically to give you time to return to the thread and defend yourself. I don't call that "clinging to your wagon."

@Everyone/specifically barry - I consider meta to be other-game stuff/ personality traits, not age. I guess my definition could be wrong to others but thats what i think of, and i think its kind of silly way to scumhunt.

sorry if i missed any questions, have a lot of catching up to do

Since our 8-legged player is replacing out, I have my vote freed up.

UNVOTE

Frankly, I'm not satisfied with hiplop's response so far, nor am I very happy with the continued back and forth on both content and posting style. The OMGUS is just another over-reaction.

@ hiplop - you may be simply over-reacting to my posts while trying to quickly catch up on thread. I'd like to hear more from you before actually moving to a vote. What do you have to say once you have fully caught up with the thread from V/LA?

[Barry Allen]

Again, look at the post times. Here it is 5:50 and i just got off v/la. Im fresh etc. How does my voice change?

How is that OMGUS? I genuinely have a suspicion on you, if you were doing the same thing to Giitah, id be suspecting you. It just so happens that yure on my tail. Sorry, thought you were voting me, was a qucik check up and i kind of just assumed you voted me, nonetheless, you still are claiming the same things over-and-over. Thats clinging to a wagon

1. No need to be defensive - I've posted already that typos/grammar are not proof of affiliation, just an interesting observation. The only value it has is in looking at changes in how you post depending on whether you are defending yourself. The changes seem to be more related to how defensive you are rather than to time of day...but again this isn't evidence in and of itself.

2. "How is that OMGUS?" Simple...you said it yourself. You thought I was voting you when you quickly checked the thread. I'm not claiming things "over and over" but rather posted my thoughts while also posting that I wanted to give you the opportunity to return to thread and explain yourself.

I don't know if you're scum or not...but I'm not impressed with your defense so far. I was (and still am) hoping you can give us more insight to your thoughts when you've had the chance to look further into the thread.

[Barry Allen]

OK, let's go through this latest group of posts...

OMGUS =/= mistake in thinking someones voting you? I think you're scum, at this point. Its not OMGUS, its just coincidental that you're going for me.

atm im fine with lynching;
Barry
DK
Grallie

Whats the vote count atm?

You wanted to go after me because you

thought

I was voting for you. It wasn't the mistake that was OMGUS, it was going after me because you thought I was voting for you. That's classic OMGUS.

nvm thought DK had more votes on him

VOTE: DK

This looks very LOL, very strange after making such a serious defense and going after me in a very serious tone. You are once again changing voices in thread as well as content.

Yeah whoops! thought his name was demon killer. And i meant griitah

More LOL again...only I'm not laughing.


hiplop posts with typos and grammatical errors until he is FoS'd, then turns to excellent typing and grammar along with a much more serious tone. Then, he goes back to LOL until the heat turns up again...and after getting serious with good typing and grammar goes back to LOL.

I don't buy that you can't even get the names of the players right, and I don't buy the flip-flopping in both content and posting style...I think it's time to...

VOTE: hiplop

[Barry Allen]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, hiplop, I read all your posts. I find them not to be consistent in either content or posting style. The post I'm quoting from you is like a lot of your early posts, where you quote a longer post from someone else (in this case me) and make a very quick comment...making it look like you are contributing much more than you actually are. Your later posts swing back and forth in both content and style, depending on how much heat you are getting at the moment. Until I see something better from you I'll keep my vote where it is.

There is one other question that I did answer earlier...but that question seems to have come up again so I'd like to answer it again after quoting the most recent note on the subject:

Now,

@Barry

Post #4 you said you wanted to hear from jil because she was at L-2. I know this has been said before, but drawing attention to her absence seems almost opportunistic.

I don't think either of them are scum, though, but you can't be really sure on D1.

At the time of the post referenced above, Jil had actually been on thread multiple times without giving a defense, even though the votes were piling up. She had only been at L-2 for a few hours (hence my time zone reference), but this had been going on for much longer with her active posting...but no defense. That's what I was calling out...not her absence from the thread, but her absence of a defense.

[Barry Allen]

I'm taking a moment from enjoying Father's Day (keep in mind I'm the old guy here) for a couple of observations.

- If bob is scum, he's pulling the most amazing and out-there town act I've seen. I cannot help but believe his actions are pro-town, and I don't believe a reasonable case could be made for scum based on what's been on the thread so far. This makes me wonder why there are still 2 votes on him. Pine and/or Heliman please restate your case, because I do not understand those votes. My vote is still on hiplop for now, but those votes staying on bob are something I don't get.

- As for DH staying on Jil, I have to say that although I share the concern about Jil (I still think she could be scum), I don't know that the continued pushing on Jil is moving us forward as a group. We either need an argument that can bring the players together on that case or we need to come back to her at a later time. I was (and am) of a mind that she could very well be scum, but I wasn't able to convince others and I don't think DH is doing any better on this case than I did. I don't know that all this means DH is scum, but I do think that continuing to push isn't helping us at this point.

[Barry Allen]

@BarryAllen post 339, page 13. My complete PbP on Pine explains his entire "case" on bob.

@Everyone - If foilist asks for an opinion on his walls give an opinion. Doesn't have to be long but some indication of where you stand on an issue is always nice.

- Pine's "case" on bob (as noted in Ace's post 339) isn't much of a case at all, of course. That's my point. Unless there is something much better on bob (and I don't believe there is), then I have to wonder why Pine and Heliman are still voting for bob.

- To respond to the walls of text on Nintendoaddict: To me there is a definite difference in the play between bob and nintendoaddict, one that I think is important at this point. Both have been aggressive. But, when I go back and read bob, I get a lot more content and pro-town behavior. There's a lot more heat than light in most of Nintendoaddict's posts. That doesn't make nintendoaddict obvscum, but it certainly leaves him vulnerable to getting a lot of heat in order to find out just what he is.

[Barry Allen]

@Barry Allen: I am not voting Nintendo for his playstyle or writing style. Please reread my case, or just my most recent post.

@ foilist13 - I wasn't trying to summarize your case, just giving my own take on Nintendoaddict. I'll continue to read, but for right now I'm not ready to change my vote. I don't know that I fully agree with bob that nintendoaddict is "probably town", but again I'm not ready to change my vote from hiplop at this time.

[Barry Allen]

OK, before I hit the road for a looooong drive for work, I want to throw out some quick thoughts on what has been happening lately.

1. Bob makes an interesting argument on DH. I'm not certain I agree with every point raised by Bob on DH, but it does cast a suspicion on DH that made me pay attention. The role claim afterward does give me a bit of pause as far as a D1 vote. However, (see point 2)
2. Pine caught my attention just as much by "reversing my (Pine's) stance on Bob" and quickly voting DH. It was a VERY convenient and all-too-quick jump for my taste.
3. But, Pine is still V/LA and even though 1 day is left and "he's semi-posting" I would rather wait for a defense before switching a vote.

Bottom line is that I'm still concerned about hiplop, jil and Pine, with an "I don't know but I'm not happy with" type read on Nintendoaddict. My vote is still on hiplop for now, but that is something I'll review more closely when I can get back on late tonight.

[Barry Allen]

Hurray! Let's lynch the guy on vacation!

I won't be able to make an effective defense against this complete bullshit of a wagon on me until I'm posting from something other than my phone. I get home very late tomorrow, so expect a wallpost Wednesday.

Pine, you

are

able to post. You want us to wait for 48 more hours when the vote is already at L-2? I believe any player deserves a chance to post a defense. But, given that you CAN post and are checking the thread I don't think it is right to wait until Wednesday to move my vote from hiplop to you. It isn't reasonable to ask us to wait until the 22nd for a defense, especially when you are proving you have access and can post. If you have something to say, please say it now.

[Barry Allen]

unvote vote Barry Allen

You are officially tipping over from "weird and unreadable" to "scummy" with all of the opportunistic foreshadowing in that post.

@ everyone -

You guys, we should give Pine until Wednesday, and I'm not feeling Barry Allen right now at all. There's a lot of stuff in his play I've been deliberately ignoring because it seemed to stem from his unique playstyle, but I've had enough. This last post was WAY scum.

Bob, I do believe you are town, but I also believe you are jumping to conclusions on this point. I was

not

giving "foreshadowing" with my post, nor was I being "opportunistic". At least one of the votes on Pine right now was due to my prior pointing out the scumminess of Pine's actions. I left my vote on hiplop (who I still believe is scummy) this morning when I left for work, planning to switch to Pine if there was not a reasonable defense when I came back to thread. However, when I came back this evening I found that there had been a very quick vote on Pine that had already built up to L-2. That's what stopped my switch - I don't believe in going to L-1 where a quickhammer can end the discussion (and phase) without a reasonable chance to defend. That being said, things are now different thanks to Bob's change of vote. We are now at L-3, not L-2. Further, I am very disappointed that Pine seems to be able to stay active on thread while "V/LA" but wants us to wait 48 hours for a defense. Given that I will

Unvote hiplop

VOTE: Pine

Now, bob, we are back at L-2. I didn't (and don't) mind taking us to L-2 before a defense. I just wasn't ready to go to L-1 and allow a quickhammer before a reasonable chance for a defense was given.

NOTE: While I was typing this, I found more "case" on me from Bob. Please note my review of L-2 versus L-3. I don't believe in going to L-1 without a chance to defend. My vote on the octopus was NOT taking us to L-1, and it was a pressure vote to get more info out of our 8-legged friend. This is different - my vote prior to Bob's vote change would have taken us to L-1 where a quickhammer would end the discussion. I do believe that is a significant difference.

[Barry Allen]

OK, I've had enough with the "case". Let's talk plainly.

1. Moving the thread to L-1 sets us up for a "quickhammer" that ends all debate, all discussion, and all scumhunting for the phase. If we did happen to be wrong, it would be all to easy for a scum to "accidentally" trip us over to a ML and then spend the night phase laughing their socks off at us. That's why, in past rounds I've played here, it is not a good idea to go to L-1 while still waiting for a defense.

2. I was ready to go to a vote on Pine tonight when I left this morning if there were no good defense. I did not, however, anticipate that we would be at L-2 when I returned to thread.

3. Pine doesn't appear to be

that

limited in access, posting rather frequently in the thread while claiming to be on V/LA. At this point, I have to wonder whether that is an accurate claim, or whether Pine is simply hoping that an additional 48 hours will allow the heat to go elsewhere (as it is obviously doing right now).

I'm being targeted because I pointed out Pine was acting scummy but didn't immediately move my vote. Then, I came back to the thread and refused to move us to L-1, but still pointed out that Pine was acting scummy. Now, I'm supposedly scummy for not moving us to L-1, but also for continuing to believe Pine is scummy and voting when my vote would

not

take us to L-1. That allows the rest of the players to consider the fact that Pine (I believe) is playing us for time rather than actually making a defense.

Even if Pine has only smart phone access (must be a great smart phone to allow him to keep up with the thread and post as much as he has while "V/LA", let's think for just a moment. I would not expect a long response to "wall-o-text", but I

would

expect at least

some

measure of defense, rather than continued delays. The claim from Pine doesn't ring true to me, and I don't buy it.

[Barry Allen]

I told you, I'm an old guy. I realize there are smart phones that can access the thread. I was being snarky with that line. However, my point stands. Pine may not be able to respond to "wall-o-text" but that doesn't mean absolutely NO defense is appropriate here. The idea that we should wait for 48 hours for any sort of defense in not appropriate. It would be much more understandable to post part of a defense and then to say he would give us more when he could get to a computer, but NOT okay to claim he can't access us for a real defense.

Let's also look at other ways to contribute. If he is visiting friends or family, they likely have a computer he could use. If he is in a hotel (as I am right now) he could either use a company-supplied laptop (if he has one) or simply go down to the lobby and use the computer that just about every hotel now has available for use. If he is in school he can use a computer there (some schools set up firewalls but I've played with plenty of folks who could get around the firewall to play).

Simply claiming "I'm just on a smart phone, poor me" doesn't ring true - not when asking for 48 additional hours and still actively posting while on "V/LA".

[Barry Allen]

btw bob - you are OK with Pine having the extra time to post a defense, that it makes "perfect" sense. Yet, had I voted and taken him to L-1 a quickhammer would have cut off any opportunity for that defense. You are trying to have it both ways - going after me for allowing an opportunity for defense without a quickhammer, then saying you really want Pine to have that time to defend.

[Barry Allen]

In any case, Pine's description of his situation and request for more time are completely believable to me, so I'd appreciate it if you would put this issue to rest.

While we're here, can you please quickly summarize your reasons for finding hiplop scummy? Right now I find your whole case against him to be misguided at best, and downright manipulative sounding at times. All I'm asking for is your three top points, and a link to a post of yours where you articulated the issue.

As for Pine, I think the fact that no one else is voting Pine right now says that we will be waiting for that defense. As to my case on hiplop, here are several links for your review, which goes from initial FoS to case to vote, along with some back-and-forth with hiplop:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3134115
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3137839
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3138786
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3139037
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3139284

That’s the main posts that deal with my FoS and later vote for hiplop. As for a quick summary for my reasons for suspecting hiplop:
1. Flip-flopping with votes and FoS. Going from what he later claimed was a “joke” vote for Bob to a claimed “only” vote on DH, then back to a “serious” vote on Bob without an explanation (no explanation for the second bob vote was given until I called hiplop out for this).
2. Hiplop out-and-out lied regarding his vote on DH, claiming he had been the only vote on DH at the time, “proving” he was “thinking for himself”. When I pointed out that there were actually two votes already on DH when he voted, he changed his story to say he was the only “serious” vote on DH. This was a false claim intended to give him credibility with the rest of the players.
3. OMGUS’ing me when I called him out, accusing me of “clinging to a wagon” when I had not even voted him at that time. When I pointed that out, hiplop then claimed he “thought” I was voting for him, which makes that even more OMGUS.
As for the changes in posting style at various times in the thread, I consider it to be of interest, but not evidence in and of itself. I do think it is proof that hiplop is playing with us, changing styles to act more LOL when not getting heat and turning quite efficient and eloquent when FoS’d. That’s all I have at this point, as it is just D1. Let me know if you have more questions. For right now, I’m going to bed as it is near 11:30 p.m. my time. I hope to be able to quickly check the thread in the morning before going to work. If I miss that opportunity I will be back on tomorrow evening.

[Barry Allen]

As noted in my last post, I'm checking in around 7 a.m. my time zone prior to going to work, obviously with only one additional post since my last post last night. I will be at work and then on the road but will be back on this evening in case there are further questions.

[Barry Allen]

I'm checking in from the road (glad to have an air card on my company laptop) - won't make my hotel for another 3-4 hours tonight. While there have been some interesting points tossed back and forth it does appear we are more or less in a holding pattern waiting for Pine to finish his own holding pattern (to get out of Memphis and back home). I'll try to check in again after getting to the hotel.

[Barry Allen]

I'm in Atlanta now. Our plane was two hours delayed. Our layover was supposed to be two hours. We were in the back of the plane that took ten minute to unload. They had the wheelchair but no guide. I RAN through the airport pushing a wheelchair fir my grandmother. We got to our gate with less than a MINUTE to go. I swear, it was like a damn movie scene, where they're about to close the door, we rush up and fumble for boarding passes, and the attendant smiles and lets us pass. But we are ON the PLANE!

There is a reason so many folks have referred to the Atlanta airport as "the airport from hell". Sorry you went through so much, but glad you made it to the flight. Hope your flight is safe.

[Barry Allen]

Hey, just skimming over the thread, just to get a vague idea of what's happening so far.

I'll start a full read pretty soon. If anything major has happened that you think I should know, that'd be great if you posted it.

Nope, you didn't miss a thing. XD

Right now the thread is waiting for Pine's defense, but there is a lot to look at in terms of other suspicions and comments. Sort of hard to summarize the whole thing in one post, but it may be better for you to read as much as you can quickly and post some questions and comments for us. That may be the easier way to catch up.

[Barry Allen]

After holding up the thread for a couple of days waiting for a defense, all we've gotten so far today from Pine have been 4 posts that ended about 5 hours ago - with those posts either stalling for time or mis-characterizing the case against him as being related to his V/LA (not true - his V/LA is actually the reason we've waited this long, not the reason for the votes against him). I get the troubles with travel - I do that almost every day for work and I get how it can drag you down. But, we've waited more than long enough. Pine, it's time. Please post your defense.

@ bob - congrats on the graduation. Have a great time with your family!

[Barry Allen]

Sorry folks, I'm working on it.

V/LA is understandable, though frankly Pine posted more while on V/LA than some "active" players. But, we were promised a response the day after his return and all we got from Pine were more posts explaining additional delays. Pine, it is well past your own deadline for your promised defense. It is time to post please, and not just another excuse for why you won't come forward with a defense.

[Barry Allen]

I graduated today mate

And now I'm posting from a new laptop which is twice as fast and watching hulu on the old laptop next to this one. Life is excellent right now.

Congratulations! And, I'm a little bit jealous about the two laptops. XD

[Barry Allen]

@ Pine

WHERE IS YOUR DEFENSE? You promised it yesterday, then failed to deliver. At this point you are just being rude by making the rest of the players wait. If you have something to say, say it now.

[Barry Allen]

Heliman may want to defend himself against a case that hasn't been fully posted, but there are two things to consider. One is that Bob is V/LA for at least the next two days and won't be able to post that case. The other (more important) point is that we've already waited more than long enough for Pine to stop delaying and actually post a defense.

@ Pine - Whether this is a delaying tactic or not, it is disrespectful of every player who has patiently waited on thread to allow you the opportunity to defend yourself. If you were waiting for the heat to go elsewhere while delaying, that hasn't worked. If you simply don't care enough to defend yourself, that's just as bad. This needs to stop. Post your defense.

@ Scumhunter - since you noted your upcoming road trip, not related to the game.
I used to live near Milwaukee and loved going to Miller Park. Not a bad seat in the house, and one of the few ballparks where you can actually afford to go and see a game. Have a brat for me!

[Barry Allen]

Bob, while I understand wishing to use our time well, we simply are not doing that at all. The thread has basically died out except for repetitive calls (several of them mine) for Pine to finally post that defense he's been promising for days. If Bob or anyone else wishes to post further reads or cases, then we're using the time wisely and should continue. If we're just going to let the thread die out while playing a waiting game, then we're simply wasting time and opportunity. Soooooo, if Pine won't post then it's time for others to add whatever additional FoS's they have so we can at least use the time productively. That especially includes our newer players - you've had some time to read up, whaddaya think folks?

[Barry Allen]

Pine - after all this time, you wait until NOW to role claim? You could have done that while you were actively posting during V/LA and were at L-2. You could have done that any time during the last two days after you returned from V/LA while you were promising a big reply to the wall-o-texts. NOW you want us to wait until deadline just to hear your responses, leaving us no time to debate other targets. No matter whether you are town or scum, this is a terrible way to play. Still, since you are now at L-1, I don't want to allow a quickhammer while you are making this claim, so here's what I will do, for now:

UNVOTE

If you are town, the maf will quickhammer and leave you without the chance to post your observations. But, I want to add that it is simply NOT fair to wait until deadline to post. If we pull our votes off of you as a group at deadline, you are leaving us with no opportunity to find a reasonable lynch target. I'm giving you some breathing room to post. Today would be a good day to make your cases and to allow us to make a reasonable judgment.

[Barry Allen]

Pine, that unvote simply brings you back to L-2 - please give us your observations sooner than later. It is not fair to the rest of us to make us wait until deadline, particularly with the role claim meaning there may be more people than me who would want the chance to debate other lynch targets.

[Barry Allen]

Valern has not read this thread very well, and seems to be tunneling on me without good reason. I'm taking this opportunity to defend myself yet again, as noted below:

Top of Barry's 230 sounds like OMGUS minus the accompanying vote.

Actually, my post included this

:

3. This is where Ace is being overly defensive. If I were ready to FoS you I would have done so.

Please tell me how this is OMGUS. I was defending myself from Ace's post, not OMGUS'ing him.

Not really feeling Barry's case on Hiplop [259]. Seems like he's on his case for playstyle more than anything else. More scumminess from Barry, though, as he spends all that space on a Hiplop case and then backs out with a non-commital "is he scum? i dano lol" at the end. Looks like Barry is dipping his pinky finger in the waters trying to determine if the water's the right temperature for a Hiplop soup.

Please get the quote right if you want to use it against me. This was a post well before I posted a vote, when I was explaining what was then just an FoS on hiplop. My actual quote was:

Now, does this all add up to scum? It's not hard evidence, so I would like to hear more from hiplop upon his return.

I was not doing an LOL "backing away from a case", I was giving hiplop a chance to respond to an FoS before deciding to vote.

Barry's 273 is noted. I haven't really been reading much of the current pages yet, but I'm aware Pine is the lead wagon and that he's been on V/LA. Interested to see if Barry was consistent with his "I don't want to vote someone on V/LA before they post a defense" statement.

I think I have shown my consistency, especially as regards L-1 before Pine gets to defend himself.

Barry 292 - he seems to like to comment on people and say things to the effect of finding them voteworthy without actually placing a vote. Why has this guy not gotten more attention?

I think this is claiming that giving your reads on different players is somehow scummy. That is ridiculous on its face.

Barry 299 - Like his question at scumhunter regarding pine, suspicious of his relative lack of useful comments on Scumhunter's reads.

This looks like tunneling.

SH 305 - "As for my reads list. I want to change it a little. I'm going to back off both my Barry scum read and my hiplop town read a bit" -- okay, sure, so he talked with Barry and found him to be slightly townier. I can see that, even if I don't agree with it. But why is hiplop suddenly scummier when he didn't post, unless he's sheeping Barry's logic (who he previously thought was most scummy behind Ace)? SUSPICIOUS.

More tunneling.

Barry's response to hiplop [335] cements my feelings that this is scum-on-town.

Here is the link to that post.

I responded to hiplop and did NOT vote for him at that time, giving him the opportunity to respond after coming off V/LA.

Barry 340 - He comes in to respond to hiplop and COMPLETELY IGNORES ace's case on Pine. Afraid of having to fake a reaction?

Valern is talking about the post where Ace comments on Pine,

and then votes DemonHybrid in that post instead of Pine

. Why would I go into detail on Ace's case on Pine when Ace was voting for someone else in that same post?

Barry 346 - Suddenly, the typo thing is scummy enough for a vote, despite him saying it was null in 340! AMAZING!

Here is the link to that post.

If you actually read that post you will find that there were a LOT of reasons I was voting hiplop. My note of his typos was an observation after I had made my case, NOT the case itself.

TLDR: Valern took a very poor read of the thread, decided on a lynch target, then went back to twist and misquote posts in order to make his version of a "case". Valern uses Ace's observations as part of his case, ignoring the fact that Ace has long since noted me as a town read. If you compare the actual posts to the misquotes, I believe you will see that this is a bad case.

[Barry Allen]

Lynching the claimed PR day 1 is bad play. If the scum don't off him tonight we can lynch him tomorrow. I suggest you read Barry Allen rather than foreshadowing your suspicions.

If you suggest someone reads my posts, why don't you give your take as well so that I at least have the opportunity to defend myself? I find this counterwagon on me to be strange, based on misquotes and tunneling. If you disagree, then state your case so that I can at least be allowed to respond.

[Barry Allen]

3) I haven't said why I'm voting Barry Allen yet. I said he sparked my interest, not that his reasons were my reasons.

This is ridiculous. We are near the end of the day, there is a premium on actually putting good information out for debate, and THIS is why you go from me being town to me being scum? If you have reasons, post them now so I have time to defend myself. This is not moving us forward, it is just stirring up crap while you go back and try to construct reasons after you've made your vote.

[Barry Allen]

realistically at this point we have two possible lynches, Pine or BA. There's simply not time for anything else.

Ace may well be right, but there is a real problem with that being the case. I have waited as long as I could to say what I have to say now, hoping that my defense would make a difference. Unfortunately, we are where we are, and that means I have to tell the rest of the story:

I am the Tracker.

As for why I haven't claimed before now? It should be obvious that I would not want to out my role as Tracker. Worse yet, this means we now have two role claims, which is bad for the town no matter what. But, the wagon is high enough on me, and we have so little time to debate, that I do not believe I have an alternative.

I have my doubts about Pine's claim, as it came after days of promising a defense that never came. Further, the claim came with a promise of further "observations" that also has never been posted. That just doesn't seem right, and my gut says that Pine is not telling the truth. But, I don't know with certainty at this point whether he is a lying scum or just a poor player who isn't paying attention to the game. As for me, I had hoped my defense against what should be an obvious counterwagon would be enough to keep me from having to reveal my role. But, we are where we are, and I can only hope that I either survive today and get protection from any doc that may be in the setup tonight, or that the town holds accountable the people who generated this counterwagon if I'm lynched.

[Barry Allen]

Given that it looks like a choice between Pine and me, and there isn't time for debating additional folks:

VOTE: Pine

I hate this coming down to a vote between role claims. But, given the choice I'm choosing Tracker over a blocker claim that could be town or scum.

[Barry Allen]

Given the description of the night kill (saying the player was shot), I would also guess we either have a vig or a serial killer out there. That means we have a doc who protected us from a maf kill - and I do not want to risk outing a doc by revealing the full report. Here's what I will say:

The player I tracked last night visited Archebob.

We no longer have a roleblocker, and Archebob is still alive after being visited. That means that the player who targeted him is likely our Doc. The only other alternative I can think of is mafia roleblocker (if one is even in the game), but that would make no sense. A maf RB would have wanted to keep me from getting a report. That means I likely tracked the doc.

[Barry Allen]

Yes, actually, I did do that yesterday.

why the hell lynch a claimed PR?

Wait a minute...you're quoting that post to make it sound like you were warning us away from the lynch, when that quote comes from the post you made

after the hammer

.
Here's the link to the post you're quoting:.

VOTE: nintendoaddict

[Barry Allen]

OK, then, how many scum were on the BW yesterday?

[Barry Allen]

OK, then, how many scum were on the BW yesterday?

2 scum.

If this is a true claim, then let's look at the votes from yesterday:
ace5993, Giitah, Scumhunter, archaebob, Barry Allen, Heliman, and foilist13 are the list of who voted for Pine. I'm tracker, bob looks VERY town, ace looks town to me, foilist looks more town than not, leaving 2/3 scum for:

Giitah
Scumhunter
Heliman

Part of me hopes the claim is not true, because how many roles are we gonna out in the first two days? But, assuming it IS true, I could actually believe 2 scum could be in that group. I'm gonna

UNVOTE

to keep a BW from getting too large before we have a chance to talk more.

[Barry Allen]

A sensor can tell how many scum were on the lynch vote from the day before. That's why I asked that question. I think we do need to pull off the votes for now until we can talk a bit more.

[Barry Allen]

btw - Giitah's post could possibly have been in progress when my unvote hit the thread. That leaves scumhunter and Heliman to hear from. Come to think of it, the nintendoaddict BW started with Heliman. Hmmmm....

[Barry Allen]

one last note - sorry for the triple post, but I have two things, actually.

1. I'm feeling VERY dumb for my vote having taken us to L-1, as that goes against everything I believe in, particularly this early. I just didn't count and am glad we didn't have a quickhammer prior to nin's claim.
2. If nin's claim is accurate, and if my assumption about where 2/3 scum would be given nin's claim that 2 scum were in that lynch vote, I think we should hear a defense from Heliman and scumhunter. Let's start that process:

VOTE: Heliman

[Barry Allen]

We aren't that far apart in the count here. I personally believe we have 2/3 scum from you, scumhunter and Heliman, and that would leave 1/3 scum from Valern, Hiplop and LittleGrey (or whoever replaced LittleGrey). Personally, I think we have better odds going after the 2/3 first.

[Barry Allen]

Bob, I do believe you're town, because you were visited last night and somehow you are still alive. That says you were likely doc'd. That being said, I believe you should check the springs in your shoes, as they must be worn out from jumping to conclusions. We've lost too many roles at this point, and if you want to lynch me and watch another PR for the town go down you will only be entertaining the mafia. "There's no scenario that makes sense in which he isn't a scum tracker?" Are you kidding me?

How about the scenario where I'm the tracker for the town?

I do believe you are town, and in fact I have really good evidence of that fact, but the impact of your out-there posts is anti-town. Please take a chill pill and stop it.

As for nintendoaddict, yes I get that we could be hearing a false claim as we've already had two town PRs outed. However, I didn't think we should lynch that quickly given the claim. The day phase was almost over before it started.

As for me I stand by my vote on Heliman. He wants me to out someone I believe to be the doc? Is he kidding? That means the doc either has to protect himself (if he can) or he dies the next night phase. I think we have enough roles out there right now, thank you very much, and asking for me to out a doc is downright scummy. My vote stays on Heliman.

One last note - please note how hiplop is jumping on and off me with however the wind is blowing at the moment. Hiplop, I'm not forgetting you, I just think the case is stronger right now on Heliman.

[Barry Allen]

@ Bob - OK, I won't start this post the way I've started my other ones. You are an idiot. If you succeed in getting me lynched, you will have to realize that you are certainly an idiot. You cannot "imagine a scenario" where I'm actually what I say I am? That simply means you won't let anything get past your preconceived notion and your tendency to jump first and ask questions

later

never. Your posts, as I said earlier, are becoming anti-town in their impact - you aren't even noticing hiplop's attempts to make you seem scum because you are too busy trying to lynch the tracker.

@ hiplop - you've jumped back and forth on me, and now you want to claim a bob/barry scumteam? I've very clearly stated my concerns about you already, and frankly I'm tired of dealing with you. I've stated my case during D1, and now you've added the back and forth jumps on me already this day phase without explaining your votes or your changes of mind. Now, you want to plant seeds of bob also being scum. I'm done with you.

UNVOTE

VOTE: hiplop

[Barry Allen]

EBWOP: I still do not believe outing my full report is helpful at this point in the round. With 11 players left, there are too many opportunities for the maf to kill a doc. I get the argument that this seems a role-heavy round if nintendo's claim is true - but given that we already have one PR dead and another revealed before D1 ended, I don't want to take the chance on D2 of lynching another PR. And, I don't want to take the chance of making a doc vulnerable to hit if I reveal my result.

[Barry Allen]

@ bob - you are saying I'm not using logic, when frankly your arguments related to me have no logic. OF COURSE I realize that nintendo could be fake claiming. But, we've lost one PR and outed my role as tracker - why would I take this chance D2? Your idea that there "is no scenario" where I could be a town tracker is on its face illogical. You can believe whatever you wish. If you wish to judge by writing style, however, let me comment on yours: You are acting like a loose cannon, jumping on whatever you can grab at the moment and moving from zero to warp speed with accusations. Then, you later back away and go after someone else with equal fervor. Then, you come back to someone you suspected before with that same over-zealous energy. At some point this is no longer helpful. At first you can gauge reactions, but after a while it just becomes tiresome noise. I'm not ready to agree with Ace that you are scum, but your posts have moved into an area that is no longer pro-town.

@ everyone else - Bottom line is that I took my vote off nintendo, even though I worry about him, because I don't want to take the risk on another PR claim on D2. We certainly have the opportunity to go after him later on if we don't believe his claim, but I don't think D2 is the right day for it. While it does seem exceptionally role heavy, keep in mind that we didn't trust Pine's claim yesterday and lost our blocker. Right now I'd rather go after someone else for today. In addition, I don't want to out who I tracked, again because I do not believe it wise to out someone who may be a doc. My vote is on hiplop, who has literally hopped back and forth throughout this round, particularly today. I don't trust him, and I do believe he is scum. If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for now my vote stays.

I'm on the road right now, pulled over at a gas station in Virginia while a thunderstorm passes by. The weather is clearing so I'll get back on the road, and hopefully will be able to rejoin the thread sometime later tonight.

[Barry Allen]

@ bob - okay, let's look at your "arguments" that you claim I'm not responding to:

Post 730

– Bob doubts the possibility that nintendo’s claim could be real. Then states flatly that Barry is scum, stating that the set up is unbalanced towards town even without the tracker claim being real. Bob states, “I bet my house that you’re a scum tracker.”

Let me restate what I have already said on this topic: I don’t know if nintendo’s claim is real or not, but I don’t like the idea of lynching a claimed role on D2 after we lynched a real role on D1 and lost another role N1. We do have time to come back to Nintendo if we wish at any time. As for the claim that I’m a scum tracker – that’s a claim you are pulling out of thin air with nothing other than your opinion to back it up.

Post 740

– You tell hiplop that Barry should not reveal who he (I) tracked. You state flatly that I’m not lying about the fact that someone targeted Bob, but that whoever targeted you is not scum because Barry is a “scum tracker”. You go on to state that there is no way I faked the result and that it proves I cannot be town, because of the number of roles we have in the setup. You note that it is obvious someone tried to protect you and that there is “no way that Barry Allen is a town tracker”. You tell me not to reveal who tracked you if I “want to keep pretending to be town.”

Let’s talk about contradictions here. You don’t believe I’m telling the truth about what I am, but you are CERTAIN you were visited because I said you were? You told hiplop that I should NOT reveal who I tracked, then you try to bait me into revealing who I tracked in the SAME POST? Frankly, the contradictions here are amazing.

Post 756

– You start with saying we are NOT lynching Nintendo today “no matter what”. You state your belief that “every day he stays alive gives outrageous amounts of information to the town.” You then state that you don’t like my stating you are town at the start of my posts. You state again your reason for not believing I could be a town tracker – that you believe the round would be unbalanced if I were a town tracker given the number of roles believed to be in the round so far on behalf of the town. You state that I should not buy “for a second” nintendo’s claim if I’m really town and wonder why I’m voting Heliman instead of of Nintendo (as I was doing at that time).

Again, I don’t know that I buy the claim from nintendo – I just don’t think D2 is the day to take that chance. You started this post basically saying that very same thing, then turn around and say that I must be scum if I believe the same thing that you do.

Post 758

– You reply to hiplop with the reasons Barry should not out the report, giving three potential scenarios. The first scenario is that I am the town tracker….

WAIT, I thought there was “no scenario” where I COULD be a town tracker? Guess there really is, even if you won’t accept it.

Post 767

– You state that I’m not responding to your arguments and that I’m not using logic to back up my assertions. You ask that if I am a tracker, why am I not voting for Nintendo. Again, you bring up the number of roles.

Once again, I don’t know that I believe nintendoaddict’s claim, for the very reason you state. I just don’t believe D2 is the day to test that claim. Bob, you have repeatedly made that same argument, that we should not lynch Nintendo today. It does not make sense for you to repeatedly argue against lynching a player and then to turn around and vote for me because I agree we should not lynch Nintendo today.

Post 770

– you call out hiplop for continuing to ask PRs to out themselves.

I’ve seen hiplop’s actions as scummy, and you are calling him out here for what could reasonably be called anti-town behavior, yet my vote means that I’m scum? Again, you are not making sense.

Post 774

– You state, “That's fair. I guess scum probably does know the report, so it doesn't help us to keep it from the town. @ everybody - A mass claim might not be a bad idea about now. What do you think?”

I think it is still a VERY bad idea, Bob, and I’m surprised you didn’t at this point.

Post 778

– You’ve changed your mind about massclaims after ace votes for you, basically kissing up to ace and agreeing with him about, well, everything. You also state, “My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.” You then state that you don’t believe both Barry and Nintendo can be truthful, and then go back to work on your Heliman case.

You know, I knew you were going all over the place in some of your posts, but when I came back to analyze just the posts after you voted me I was amazed at how much you’ve contradicted yourself.

Post 788

– You once again claim I haven’t responded to your arguments and state that I’m trying to gradually move to a vote on you. You say that I’m treating it as a given that I’m town and am using AtE on you. You also claim I am using “fabricated outrage” on you. You also flatly defend hiplop as town. You add some pejorative content directed at me, then ask my opinion on some specific players with an AtE, stating that “If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this.” You end with one last AtE claiming that “your mind is already racing about how to respond to this”.

OK, Bob, now you’re getting paranoid. If I wanted to vote you I would already have done so. You turned around 180 degrees on massclaiming when Ace voted you, and then you start acting paranoid because I called you out for not helping the town with your loose cannon approach. That’s your problem, not mine. As for your question at the end of your post, I’ve already stated that I think 2/3 scum can be found in: Giitah, Scumhunter and Heliman. Frankly, that’s more than the idea of 2 scum being claimed by Nintendo as being on the Pine vote. I’ve had bad vibes on each during D1 and haven’t seen much since to take my worries off them. Ace appears town to me, Foil leans town, and I don’t have a read on Valern (although Valern did lead that D1 wagon on me).
Let’s be real here – I’m not outraged, just highly irritated at your posting style. I’m amazed that you consider yourself logical, given that you really only have one argument (OK, two). Your arguments are one, that you don’t believe a balanced round would have so many PRs, and two “Barry is a poopy face”. Witness your next post:

Post 789

– “I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?”

Again, pejorative posting, without logic, just an AtE.

TLDR: Bob is repeating one argument over and over, that he doesn’t believe that a fair and balanced round would include this number of PRs. OK, fair enough, I’m not sure I believe Nintendo either. But, Bob and I seem to agree on one point, that we should NOT lynch Nintendo today. The difference is that Bob wants us to agree that he is town when HE says it, and that I must be scum when I say it. Frankly, THAT is not logical

[Barry Allen]

@ Bob - your argument still boils down to "how can there be so many roles?" You want me to state whether I believe that there COULD be so many roles, and if not how could I move my vote from nintendo? I've answered this several times, so let me do this one last time.

Of COURSE I worry about Nintendo's claim. I don't know if it is legit, and in fact I have some doubt as to whether we have a sensor in the round. However, as I have repeatedly stated, I do not want to take the chance of being wrong on D2 after we lynched a role on D1 and lost another role N1. That is NOT the same as accepting nintendo's claim on face value, and it is NOT the same as believing we have a million roles in the round. Bob has repeated agreed that lynching Nintendo is a bad idea, even though Bob also says there is no way we can have that many roles in the round. I agree with Bob on this, yet I'm finding a lynch coming my way.

There are some things I do not get here:
1. How can Bob agree that it is bad to lynch nintendo today, but think that it is bad when I say the same thing?
2. How can Bob clear hiplop? What knowledge does he have, and on what basis has he decided this?
3. Even if I am wrong about hiplop, how is being wrong on D2 "proof" of scum?
4. How can Bob believe me as tracker but not as town? What knowledge gives him the certainty that I AM a tracker?

Finally, Bob seems paranoid that I'm trying to lynch him and is basically daring me to put my vote on him. That is ridiculous and not helping anything here.

TLDR: I am NOT accepting at face value Nintendo's claim, and I have no reason to believe we have so many PRs. However, given our complete fail record as a town, I see no benefit to taking the risk on D2 after two roles are already dead from D1 and N1. It is ridiculous on its face for Bob to be against lynching nintendo today but in favor of lynching me because I took my vote off nintendo.

[Barry Allen]

The only thing that I can confirm here is that I DID track Foilist last night. I didn't reveal who I had tracked because I didn't want to risk outing a doc. Instead, we get a roleclaim of something completely different. I've played mafia on different sites since 2009 (mainly vendetta-strada.com, with a little faster pace with 48 hour day phases and 24 hour night phases, if you want to try that pace give it a try sometime). However, I had never played a round with either a sensor or a friendly neighbor, so I looked them up in the wiki to get more info. I don't know that I fully get the idea of foilist setting up the QT with Bob, as being able to do that is NOT listed in the wiki for that role. However, if Foilist is the neighbor, that WOULD explain why Bob KNOWS I'm the tracker. He would know that he was visited if the GM sent him the Neighbor message from Foilist.

This would also explain why Bob is so hyper about "there can't be that many roles in the game." He knows we had a roleblocker and two masons, along with a neighbor. That's why he can't accept the town also having both a tracker and sensor, as that would mean we have 6 roles minimum for the town. That doesn't mean we DON'T have a role-heavy round, but it DOES make Bob's reactions make more sense.

@scumhunter - I didn't have a specific reason for a bad vibe on you D1, it was more of a gut feeling that I couldn't put my finger on. You WERE on my short list for tracking yesterday, along with Giitah and foilist. My criteria for picking a target was as follows:

1. People no one would expect me to track - in case they really were town. I didn't want to have a tracker report on a dead player on D2, and if there were a player who showed up as a potential tracker target that was town, the maf would likely target them to give me a useless report D2.
2. People who could potentially be maf, but not people I had openly suspected D1. The first criteria crossed off any names of folks I had openly suspected D1, as they could simply not vote for a hit in order to look inno.

So, scumhunter, bottom line is I only have two things regarding you - a gut feeling that I couldn't put into words D1, and the potential that if nintendo was telling the truth about being sensor you would be in that 2/3 scum group from the votes on Pine that I talked about at the start of the day.


TLDR: foilist was my tracker target, which I would never have confirmed today without him outing himself. Believe what you will about me, but if you lynch me please take another look at hiplop, as I hope you will when I flip town. Further, take a look at folks who have jumped on this BW. I don't know how to defend myself more than I have, and I think it is frankly insane to lynch a tracker on D2, as there could be more info I could provide the town every day that I live.

[Barry Allen]

@ hiplop - no I don't believe it was a hammer. If I'm counting right foilist is at L-2. Before I take it to L-1 I want to confirm my understanding here, so bob please tell me if I have this right:

1. Bob is visited by foilist, claiming he is a mason with Ace.
2. Foilist takes Bob to a QT, but it is just bob and Foilist and not Ace.
3. Based on posts in thread, Bob starts to suspect that Ace isn't aware of the claim that Foilist and Ace are masons together.
4. Foilist claims in thread to be a friendly neighbor and NOT a mason.
5. Ace claims not to be a mason.
6. Foilist continues to claim he and Ace are both masons.

Add to that DH having referred to his "partner" in the singular, and foilist's claim of being mason with Ace and DH doesn't add up. At the least this points to a fakeclaim of some sort, which given our discussions regarding roles is a dangerous and ill-advised move at best (ok, let's just say "stupid").

Let me know if I have this right. If so, this truly reeks. For now I will

Unvote

[Barry Allen]

OK, then, let's go to L-1. Given that foilist has already given a defense (though a rather fail defense at that), it's time:

VOTE: foilist

Foilist has made two claims now, mason (privately to bob) and friendly neighbor (publicly to the rest of us). He claimed Ace as his mason buddy, though Ace is refusing to back him up right now, which makes it even MORE odd that foilist continues to claim mason with Ace. Given the large amount of discussion regarding whether so many roles are in the game, claiming two roles is really a bad idea.

[Barry Allen]

I've included my replies in blue after each of your points, xvart.

Barry Allen

:

Post 335

- If your vote is "free up now" and you are not satisfied with hiplop why are you not voting hiplop?

This is a question I have answered already in this thread, but since you ask, this was when I was FoS'ing hiplop and giving him the opportunity to defend before I put my vote on him.

Post 664

- I don't like the whole ramp up "I've waited as long as I can to reveal this information."

This is more of an AtE than analysis. Of course I waited as long as I could - it was a pretty fail D1 for us when we outed 2 roles in one day (blocker and tracker) and then had a lynch vote that came down at the end to our two roles.

Post 673

-

I hate this coming down to a vote between role claims. But, given the choice I'm choosing Tracker over a blocker claim that could be town or scum.

This is worded incredibly strangely. As town, wouldn't he be voting for the person he knows is town and not because of his role?

Again, at the end of the phase we had waited so long for Pine to defend that we were left with a choice between two role claims for our vote, and no time left to raise new cases. I stated that my vote was in favor of a tracker (me) that I KNEW existed over a roleblocker claim that I didn't know for sure was real.

Post 688

- Similar to hiphop, Barry is employing the classic scum tactic of misdirection. Given the kill flavor of being shot means vig or serial killer? Mafia don't typically use guns in mini normals? Plus the countless other roles that could have visited including cop, JoAT, etc (but many people weren't thinking outside the doctor box).

This "analysis" from you is also a classic scumtactic. You are directing our attention away from my noting who was visited during N1 in that post. You are instead trying to create connections that don't exist between players, hoping that one or both would look scummy.

Post 720

- Diminishes his own play, acknowledged a bad move on his part.

Your point being....what?

Post 747

- Barry sensationalizes the night kills saying "we've already lost too many roles" when we've actually only lost one.

This is where you are wrong. We lost our blocker on D1 through lynch and we lost a mason by night kill N1. That's two roles we lost, not one.

Post 786

- the whole argument for removing votes to not out more PRs is crazy. If you think someone is scum you want to wagon them and get them claim and lynch them, unless you know they are town and might be a PR. Being cautious about who you wagon to not out PRs is terrible because:

1. You are scum and don't have a legitimate case;
   
2. You are scum and don't want to wagon another town person and look scummy; or,
   
3. You are scum and don't want to be the driving force of another mislynch.

This is another scumtactic. You disagree with me, so you list several scenarios that all assume I'm scum. The last scenario is just what I stated it was. We had lost two roles already (not one as you mistakenly noted above), and I did not want to risk more fail. On D2 we do have time to continue hunting elsewhere, and if we later choose to not believe the claim and go after Nintendo we certainly have time. In fact, not going to that very quick lynch has given us a LOT of valuable discussion and information, so in retrospect I still believe I did the right thing.

Barry

- why did you choose to track Foilist last night?

I've already stated how I looked at my short list for tracking. How I picked foilist out of that group? It wasn't just that foilist dropped the hammer, it was that there was a post FoSing foilist before the thread was locked. Since there was an FoS on foilist, the maf might let a town foilist live in order to try to BW him early on D2, and of course a scum foilist was sure to live and might actually visit someone. When foilist DID visit and bob lived through the night, I thought at first that I had found the doc, so I only released the name of the person he visited (bob). The later neighbor/mason claim obviously blew that doc theory out the window.

I'll read the rest of your post, but xvart it doesn't look like you carefully read the thread. You missed key points like losing two roles instead of one, and you asked me questions I've already answered in thread. You are also using the same tactics in your posts that you find scummy. Large posts don't necessarily mean well-reasoned posts, and giving a lot of quotes doesn't mean you really read the thread all that well.

[Barry Allen]

EBWOP - when I replied to xvart's note on post 786, I meant to say "there IS a last scenario, just what I stated it was" that I am town who didn't want to risk a PR after losing 2 roles (blocker and mason). That's what I get for posting near midnight my time.

[Barry Allen]

OK - report is

hiplop targeted no one

hiplop - looks like I may well have been wrong about you.

[Barry Allen]

2 scum on the wagon again. Let's see here:

Pine - 7 (ace5993, Giitah, Scumhunter, archaebob, Barry Allen, Heliman, foilist13) 2 scum
foil - 6 (ace5993, archaebob, xvart, Scumhunter, Barry Allen, nintendoaddict1) 2 scum

Okay, so foil was scum, which means ace, SH, bob, or BA could be the other scum on the first wagon. This clears Giitah and Heliman, as neither of them was on the second lynch, yet, two scum were on it. These games usually have three scum, which means that xvart is confirmed scum.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this, but I think I get it. Bascially, if you accept nintendo's claim as sensor, he has mathematically proven that xvart MUST be scum. There is no other way to read it as the only way xvart can be town is if nintendo is lying about his claim and is therefore scum himself. In other words, an xvart lynch will tell us a lot no matter which way it flips.

VOTE: xvart

[Barry Allen]

xvart - the more you talk, the scummier you sound. However, how you sound isn't the point. Basically, we have a very interesting situation here. If nintendo is a lying scum as you say, then he has completely backed himself into a corner. He has mathematically left no possibility other than either 1. xvart is scum or 2. nintendo is fake-claiming and therefore scum.

This mean xvart's lynch tells us something really important, because we learn something important for the town either way. Now, xvart's own reaction looks scummy enough to make it more likely than not that nintendo's claim is accurate (I mean, really, pleading for "mod error"?). That's why I'm more than comfortable with my vote. But, if by some chance we are wrong, we have an absolute lock on who needs to be lynched the next day. This is why I don't understand Ace's vote, nor do I understand his reaction.

One last note on the number of powers: If this does turn out to be such a role-heavy round, it has taught me something interesting about mafia rounds. I had always assumed such role-heavy rounds would result in a quick read of reports and a quick win. Instead, it has created intense debate over whether each role exists and whether we should believe a claim. It also opened the door to at least one mafioso (Foilist) fake claiming a town role and almost getting away with it. For today's phase, I'm willing to go along with our sensor, especially knowing that if he isn't what he claims to be, then he's backed himself into a very lynchable corner. I'm leaving my vote on xvart.

[Barry Allen]

Even though my vote is on you xvart, and I believe you are merely playing games with us with your questions ("Hey, look, over there! THERE'S your scum, not your old buddy xvart" XD), I'll give you the answers:

1. Of course my result on hiplop isn't absolute proof of town, since I'm not a cop. However, I do believe with only 2 scum left I would likely have caught him visiting someone had he been scum. Again, not absolute proof, but good enough for now.

2. As far as flavor text, my last mini-normal (okay, my only other mini-normal that I've played on this site) had a bit longer explanation for mafia kills and a very short note for SK kills. This obviously could be different since we are in a different round with a different mod, but the text the first night made me think SK.

Now, xvart, what do you make of the math? Is it just coincidence that you OMGUS'd the first three people who voted you as being the likely maf? And, do you think the entire mafia would mass vote you this quickly if you were town?

@ Giitah - I would be surprised if we really have a 4 man maf with only 13 players. Yes, that could be a balance to all these powers, but I would still be surprised. However, whether there are three or four, I'm still comfortable with my vote on xvart.

[Barry Allen]

@ xvart - I think it becomes OMGUS when your maf reads are exactly the same as the people voting you. It is not logical to believe the entire mafia would come after you without a town vote this early in a day. I'd like to remind you that I've said since this day began that we learn something no matter the result of this vote - if you are town then nintnedo is scum. However, given the choice between you two, I think my vote is well-placed.

[Barry Allen]

You mean Mini 1126? Where the kill flavor had a bit longer explanation for the mafia kills was this:

Barry Allen is confirmed scum on the basis of lying to cover up something he said.

Yes, I mean 1126, where I was the SK. The mafia kills were accompanied with notes saying "You're next" left behind. There were no notes left behind by the SK. While Dekes did have a lot of flavor text in general as mod, there was a difference in how he treated maf versus SK kills.

xvart, your AtE and pot shots are not helping you. In fact, your increasingly wild posts make me even more comfortable with my vote.

[Barry Allen]

Really, Barry Allen? I'm interested, what does xvart look like to you right now?

He looks like a desperate scum right now. He isn't using logic, but rather AtE and meta arguments based on other rounds to try to save himself. And yes, I do believe we learn something no matter what on the lynch, but I'm still putting my vote on the player out of the two (xvart and nintendo) I most believe is scum

[Barry Allen]

Barry - are you even remotely interested in a claim from me? If not, why not?

You've had a LOT of time to claim here, instead of taking pot shots, using AtE and meta arguments based on false interpretations on other rounds. I'm surprised you haven't thought of claiming something - how about Red Power Ranger?

[Barry Allen]

And jokes aside, I would listen to a claim from anyone, including xvart. My only caveat is that xvart has posted a LOT while at L-1 without even thinking of making any claim, which would make me wonder why it is just now coming up. Still, if you want to claim Red Power Ranger (or something besides that) go ahead.

[Barry Allen]

FoS: Scumhunter

Barry Allen, why are you ridiculing xvart's claim before he makes it and discrediting him as if he HAS to be scum when only a page ago you saw it only as an informative win-win lynch?

My point on this is,

what claim

? xvart has had plenty of opportunity to claim since being at L-1. He has posted multiple times, so it's not like he hasn't had the chance. Even when bringing up claims, he didn't actually claim, just hinted at the idea that he might have a claim if we were interest. Even since that post there has been no claim. Given that type of activity, I tend to not believe he has a claim.

[Barry Allen]

xvart, I am sorry if you flip town. But, if that's so, then we do know where our votes need to go tomorrow.

[Barry Allen]

Heliman was the person I tracked last night, and as you can guess he didn't visit anyone. This leaves us with what I truly believe are two scum left. One we know, so let's get that vote out of the way...

VOTE: Nintendo

The other may be found in this post...

xvart, I apologize if you are town. I agree that a sensor is very powerful and it doesn't make much sense that he lived. However, Bob was pretty much 100% confirmed town though and people suspected nintendo yesterday so I think it is possible that you-scum didn't fully consider the consequences of letting the sensor live for another day. If you are town, I apologize.

I suppose technically lynching nintendo (and him flipping town) would confirm you scum and vice-versa so meh.

It might actually be safer to lynch nintendo

, as the worst case scenario for us here is nintendo-scum and we ML you today...

This post was made

after the hammer had happened, and with scumhunter's vote on xvart

. WHY say after the fact that "It might actually be safer to lynch nintendo" when you voted for him, and you waited until AFTER the hammer to say this?

My FoS: Scumhunter

[Barry Allen]

@ scumhunter - you and I both posted messages indicating we were sorry if the vote turned out wrong. That's not unusual in these rounds. What IS unusual is that your post reads almost as if you

weren't one of the people who voted for the lynch

. In fact,

you seem to be making an argument against the lynch after the hammer but before the results were known

. Please explain yourself.

[Barry Allen]

Again, nintendo...

1. Scumhunter voted for xvart (as did I and a majority of players). BUT
2. His post almost ignores his own vote to say we should have lynche you (nintendo) and that the worst case scenario is you living and us ML'ing Xvart.

Sooooo, why was he on the lynch if he believed that? Why make this argument AFTER the hammer fell instead of changing his vote and trying to change the town's perception? That's what I'm asking scumhunter to explain. I could be missing something, but this post really hit me wrong.

[Barry Allen]

*ahem* A framer would only work in regard to a cop report. There WAS no cop report, as we don't seem to have a cop. We used YOUR math, nintendo, which left only two possibilities: that xvart was scum or that you were lying and therefore scum. Your report is no longer useful, helpful, or believable.

[Barry Allen]

What happened is you posted a case based on simple math. It left no room for error. The only way for you to be town would be for both you and us to be complete failures as town. Frankly, we may be a fail town based on the way we've played most of the round (including me)...but based on your own case from yesterday I think you're simply scum. Vote stays.

[Barry Allen]

Proves he's scum, cutting off debate before we can do additional scumhunting today. I'm of the opinion we only have one more to go. Hopefully we can find that one tomorrow.

...and Giitah, you may not like my posts but I am what I say I am.

[Barry Allen]

..and giitah, I DID follow hiplop earlier. If he's scum, he at least didn't visit anyone that night. Don't know if further investigation would be helpful in regard to hiplop.

[Barry Allen]

You're simply playing a smart scum...but I'm wondering about two players right now...

The other is Valern for taking us to L-1 after Giitah was smart enough to back away from L-1. What WAS that, valern?

[Barry Allen]

...and giitah, why not take a look at that as well? Valern's vote came IMMEDIATELY after you unvoted to move us away from L-1, asking for more discussion and scumhunting. That was not a cool move, and it set up nintendo to self-hammer. Honestly, I want an answer for that even before we hear from scumhunter on that post. Scumhunter was just making remarks...valern changed the course of the day phase in a way that cut off debate.

@valern - not being on the xvart wagon doesn't clear you...we could have one scum holding back in order to look clear. And how would you NOT know the votecount just after giitah had backed away from his vote for that very reason?

[Barry Allen]

Here's my reads:
Ace - reads as town
Giitah - leans town
Hiplop - leans town

Nintendo - obvscum

Scumhunter and Valern - one of these is our likely last mafioso (if there is only one left, and I believe that is the case).

That's it - hopefully I'll still be alive tomorrow to report something that will be of help.

@ valern - there is something called bussing, and I believe that's what you were doing. There wasn't much to skim from today, Valern, and you didn't try to change your vote until too late, and even then it wasn't until after you were called out.

[Barry Allen]

@giitah - you are simply wrong. If you lynch me tomorrow you will find out, as you will also find out if I die tonight. There is no sensor, obviously, and there was no friendly neighbor. We have two masons and me as town roles. That's it. There is a maf roleblocker that and a one-shot scum neighborizer that we've already gotten, and that's likely it for the scum. That means only TWO types of town roles - mason (2 players) and me (town tracker). Bob's case against me was based on "too many roles". Looks like we DON'T have "too many roles" - just a lot of fake claims. I'm the real tracker, and hopefully you will figure that out before too late.

[Barry Allen]

BA, explain to me why you're alive instead of Heliman.

Leaving me alive after so many "cases" on me just leaves me looking bad and allows people like to you FoS on me instead of real scum. If I had been fully accepted as Town Tracker instead of voted on so many times, I would likely have been hit a long time ago.

Bottom line, Giitah is that I am what I say I am - Town Tracker. Remember that Bob's case on me was "there can't be that many roles". Turns out he was right in that respect, as there ARE NOT that many roles. If I'm NOT town, then it looks like the only role we had was town mason. Does THAT make sense to you? The maf had a role blocker and a one-shot neighborizer. Looks like there really IS room for a Town Tracker to exist - without there being "too many roles". Like it or not, giitah, that's exactly what I am.

[Barry Allen]

Pointing out that there was no scum roleblocker, it was a town one - Pine.

I apologize, you are right giitah. Roleblocker was town.

I stand by my point, though. Having mason, roleblocker and tracker is NOT "too many roles". Certainly "Sensor" turned out to be fake, as did "neighborizer" (turning out to be a scum role). However, there IS still room for a Town Tracker, and that's me.

[Barry Allen]

GG, maf - you played an excellent game and earned the win. Sorry I couldn't have done more to help the town. Thanks also to our mod for setting up a good game - we had a lot of twists and turns, but you handled things well all the way through the game.