Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[archaebob]

RVS: Spad

cause it sounds like spud.

Why are you labeling your vote as random? Nervous much?

vote: nintendoaddict1

[archaebob]

RVS: Spad

cause it sounds like spud.

Why are you labeling your vote as random? Nervous much?

vote: nintendoaddict1

Cause I used random.org and then typed up some lolwut reason.

Using a randomizer to pick your vote and then making sure everyone knows just how random it is defeats the purpose of a random vote, and makes you sound like nervous scum.

Wagon please.

[archaebob]

Ai ai, captain.

Unvote: nintendoaddict1

Vote: archaebob

I take it you disagree? Oh are you just defending your buddy?

[archaebob]

@ nintendoaddict -

What do you think the purpose of RVS is?

[archaebob]

@ nintendoaddict -

What do you think the purpose of RVS is?

Reactions.

Exactly. Do you think you are likely to get a reaction from anyone if you tell the whole world that your vote is random?

The town starts off the game with

nothing

, and the rvs is designed to be a first step towards content generation. Believe it or not, even rvs votes contain tiny little pieces of alignment revealing content in them. It's not much, and it usually becomes unimportant later in the game, but it is

how the town starts figuring out who is who

.

By using a randomizer, you are preventing

any

content from seeping into your vote, and guaranteeing that your target will shrug you off without even one awkward incriminating sentence of defense.

Ok?

unvote vote Giitah

why the

FUCK

did you vote me!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!??!??!?!?!?

You obviously are buddies with nintendoaddict.

[archaebob]

Picking apart reactions, archaebob. You seem to have a lot to say, jumping around pointing your guns like that - are you sure you aren't just looking for someone to start wagoning on? You seem to want to jump the gun pretty fast, right?

Why so defensive? Looks to me like he's just trying to get us out of RVS.

If you think he's defensive, why not vote him? It'd certainly be a more productive place for it then where it is right now.

[archaebob]

Picking apart reactions, archaebob. You seem to have a lot to say, jumping around pointing your guns like that - are you sure you aren't just looking for someone to start wagoning on? You seem to want to jump the gun pretty fast, right?

Why so defensive? Looks to me like he's just trying to get us out of RVS.

If you think he's defensive, why not vote him? It'd certainly be a more productive place for it then where it is right now.

I just wanted an answer to my question, I did not feel like voting him would have improved the situation. We don't need a wagon every single time someone does something even the slightest bit scummy.

Later in the game, no. Right now, that's

exactly

when we should have wagons, because nothing has happened yet.

It's not a question of whether or not Giitah "deserves" a wagon right now. It's a question of maximizing your vote at all time. Later in the game that means voting for who you think is scum. Right now it means voting for the scummiest thing that has happened so far.

You are currently choosing to keep your vote on your RVS choice when there

is

a more compelling place for it. Why?

[archaebob]

unvote vote jilynne1991

[archaebob]

My vote is dead serious.

Instead of speculating about what I'm doing, why don't you do something productive.

[archaebob]

Okay, I'll do that right away.

Vote: archaebob

Good boy.

VOTE: Giitah

Way overreacting to someone skimming RVS and misunderstanding.

Oh hey! I'm already out of RVS. Thank god.

Can you explain what you mean by your reason for this vote?

And I see you online posting in other games. Have we done something to deserve neglect?

[archaebob]

@ Scumhunter - I saw you online earlier, and you chose not to move your vote. I assume that means you think Demon Hybrid is scum. Why?

[archaebob]

unvote, vote demonhybrid

calling someone definite scum o n the second page, over a RV. Plus blindly following bobby

Hiplop, your typos are so purposeful it's not even funny,

I smell... what, a survivor? Cultist?

Certainly something that doesn't want to die tonight, because your really short and shitty posts do not follow form with the rest of your meta.

Don't do this. It doesn't help with anything, and will only distract the town as people mindlessly accuse you of rolefishing.

[archaebob]

@ Mod

- I meant to bold the following sentence

"I smell... what, a survivor? Cultist?"

can you fix the tags? Thanks.

~Fixed.

-pappums rat

[archaebob]

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

Was this a serious fos?

[archaebob]

fos: Demon Hybrid

[archaebob]

@ jil - I'll make a case when the time is right. In the meantime can you answer my question about your fos?

[archaebob]

@ Demon Hybrid -

I don't pressure fos.

And why are you giving me explanations before you even know what the shot is?

[archaebob]

Oh, right, my FoS was a joke, ok, ummm, unFoS?

LOL

unFoS hiplop

I didn't ask you to unFoS. I asked you tell me if it was serious or not.

If it was joke, then why did you FoS instead of voting? You had no problem joke voting Barry Allen, Demon Hybrid, or Heliman. Is there some reason you gave hiplop the softer treatment?

[archaebob]

@ Pine -

I don't see what you are talking about. Can you please provide a quote from Giitah and explain your reasoning more clearly? I'm obviously missing something.

[archaebob]

Oh, right, my FoS was a joke, ok, ummm, unFoS?

LOL

unFoS hiplop

I didn't ask you to unFoS. I asked you tell me if it was serious or not.

If it was joke, then why did you FoS instead of voting? You had no problem joke voting Barry Allen, Demon Hybrid, or Heliman. Is there some reason you gave hiplop the softer treatment?

Please answer this Jil.

~Fixed.

-pappums rat

[archaebob]

EBWOP:

@ Pine - You might want to check and make sure that the first part

of

your post is directed at the right person as well. LOL.

(

Mod

: if you wind up fixing this one, can you just delete the duplicate from within the previous post and leave this one here? I'll try and be more careful from here on out, sorry...)

[archaebob]

@ Demon Hybrid -

I asked you a question. Please answer it.

[archaebob]

@ Pine -

Do I get token town points for calmly responding to your unwarranted accusation?

[archaebob]

@ Demon Hybrid -

My bad.

Your hiplop case is bullshit and you know it.

And that's not even why I fosed you.

What do you think of Pine's play so far?

-------

@ Barry Allen - What do you think of Demon Hybrid's play?

@ Hiplop - What do you think of Barry Allen's play?

@ Jil - What do you think of hiplop's play? (Make sure you answer my other question as well)

[archaebob]

@ hiplop - I'll answer that later. For now just keep doing what you're doing with Demon Hybrid, I'm very interested in what you guys have to say about each other.

@ Demon Hybrid - You'll find out the reason for my fos soon enough. I'm just waiting on jil to answer my questions.

Pine is typical Pine. He's playing slightly more carefully, so that's something to keep an eye on, but I don't think he's done anything

crazy

scummy yet.

"Slightly more carefully" than when? Are you referring to a past game?

What does "keeping an eye on" something mean to you?

And what do you mean by the end of your last sentence? Do you think he's done anything

slightly

scummy yet?

[archaebob]

@ Pine - You need to seriously RTFT. Let's see if you can your mistake by yourself this time.

[archaebob]

@ hiplop - It's counterproductive for me to explain what I'm doing right now. I recognize this is slightly hypocritical, and I don't expect you to trust me just yet. However, I do expect you to recognize that even if I'm scum, what I've done so far is pro-town, and that there are better things for you to do than fuck up my process right now. I'll explain before the day is over. Ok?

[@ jil -]

If it was joke, then why did you FoS instead of voting? You had no problem joke voting Barry Allen, Demon Hybrid, or Heliman. Is there some reason you gave hiplop the softer treatment?

Right now Jil needs to answer this, and tell me what she thinks of hiplop's play in general.

[archaebob]

@ everyone: There has been a death in the family, so I might not have a chance to get back on for awhile. I will do my best to put up a vote count and deliver prods if necessary when I return.

I had to deal with one of these not too long ago myself, and I am very sorry to hear this. Take care, and don't worry about the thread, we'll take care of it till you can come back in full.

[archaebob]

@ Ace -

And how exactly does one "pick" somebody for a lynch? If I can't make a persuasive argument, no one will sheep me. Your entire stance is based on the false premise that my refusing to answer questions and "dictating" to the town will somehow give me a hold on everyone's opinion.

There are lot of players right now who are doing

nothing

to help the town. Some have hardly posted at all. You don't like that I don't make myself transparent. I get you. But if I'm scum, I've committed myself to an active post rate and a promise for satisfactory explanations later. What has the rest of the town committed to?

Anyways, I've already made it clear that as soon as everyone has responded to my questions I'll explain what the point of them was. If you want that to happen sooner rather than later, why don't you get back on the jil wagon? She already ignored my first question to her, even forgetting the chain that everyone seems to hate so much.

[archaebob]

And the wagon that has just materialized on me should give you some perspective about how much of "threat" I am. Lol.

Still waiting on Jil.

Ace, I'm also curious to hear what you think about Giitah's mcSheepful vote onto me.

[archaebob]

put a cap on it. I want to hear what Jilynne has to say and what archaebob has to say before I pass a judgement on him.

What happened to this?

[archaebob]

Seems like you're passing a judgement on me before hearing what I have to say. I'm at L-2 now, you know.

Maybe you want to think about going back to jil?

[archaebob]

JIL. ANSWER MY OTHER QUESTION.

Why did you only fos hiplop when you had no problem random voting three other players?

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

Is no one bothered by the fact that jil has now failed to address this question three times?

I'm

refusing

to answer a question, but jil is just acting like it isn't there. I've brought it up multiple times now. If she's choosing not to answer it, she should at least say so openly instead of dodging it.

[archaebob]

TO THOSE OF YOU ON MY WAGON -

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2395182

Note that I was

town

in that game. And that we fucking

won

.

This should make those of you who are voting me for my "chain questions" stop in their tracks for a moment. Like all meta defenses, it's wifom, but it still does mean that you don't really have a case.

[archaebob]

*sigh*

Normally I wouldn't cave to this, but I'm looking at the join dates on you guys and realize that I'm asking for too much. Especially with facepalms like nintendoaddict asking me to claim...I mean wow...you guys evidently can't hand my usual playstyle, and this whole argument is just becoming a distraction to the town now.

For those of you without critical thinking skills, THIS is why you should be voting jilyenne right now instead of me:

Hi!

Vote: Barry Allen

for being the first person to post besides the mod.

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

Vote: DemonHybrid

for ditching games.

DemonHybrid, just saying, but I caught up just fine. (Oh wait, nevermind, I have pretty much all the time in the world.)

Ok, well then

Unvote: DemonHybrid, Vote: Heliman

since I hate helicopters.

Alright children. Let's play a game. What do the above four quotes have in common?

Nobody?

Ok, I'll tell you

exactly what I'm thinking so you can all see my reasoning

.

The above four quotes are all RVS-oriented. Random bolded letters directed at people for joking reasons.

Now...

which one of the four is different

?

You got it.

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

Now why oh why would someone who thinks they are still in rvs be FoSing people? The whole point of rvs is to randomly put pressure on people with

votes

. An FoS does nothing if it's not serious.

Is there some reason why hiplop is getting special treatment here?

Well children, that's what I was trying to figure out with my little choo choo on her scummy butt. But since you guys seem more interested in my opinion, I'll tell you what

I

think:

I think that, without realizing it, jilyenne reflexively softened her random vote on hiplop because hiplop is her buddy. That knowledge affected her confidence in random voting him because she knew that the vote was fake. Downgrading the vote to an FoS was her subconscious way of distancing from it.

NOW you guys might have a clue about why I was asking her to describe hiplop's play, and why I threw it in with a bunch of other similar looking questions to make it less noticeable.

So let's continue. I ask jil to explain her special treatment of hiplop in this post:

Oh, right, my FoS was a joke, ok, ummm, unFoS?

LOL

unFoS hiplop

I didn't ask you to unFoS. I asked you tell me if it was serious or not.

If it was joke, then why did you FoS instead of voting? You had no problem joke voting Barry Allen, Demon Hybrid, or Heliman. Is there some reason you gave hiplop the softer treatment?

And she ignores it completely, despite answering my earlier question about if the fos was serious for a second time.

I bring up my question againhere, here, and here.

And she continuously ignores it, despite answering a different question from me again:

Oh, crap, I'm so sorry, I don't know what's up with me, ok, so here it is:

After going through hiplop's ISO it looks like he wants to appear like he is scumhunting with the least possible content. He might just be lazy, but this could also be a scumtell.

More content please!

I don't like the way you're playing the game, because from what I said earlier you point fingers at everyone, so if you'er scum, we have no one to connect you to, and I'd really like to see some actual content.

Earlier, I believed you're town, but you're kind of null now. Sorry archebob.

This is her response to me asking her about hiplop. Note how she's currently voting for NOBODY, and yet doesn't drop a vote on hiplop for the scumminess she sees in his ISO.

She also apologies to me for seeing me as null now, which is weird.

Do you guys catch my drift?

Or do you need more explanation?

[archaebob]

@ hiplop -

1) You'll note that I called you scum as well, so comparing her to you doesn't help.
2) The circumstances of the other foses were different.
3) I see no reason why her being new in any way explains her special treatment of you. That FoS was surrounded by three other random votes.
4) Why are you defending her? Let her respond by herself without being fed good defenses by you.

5)

I still don't see you doing a damn thing to help this town.

[archaebob]

@ Giitah - Is there a reason your vote is still on me?

[archaebob]

@ Nintendo -

You need to spend some more time in the newbie queue, my friend. The fact that it would even cross your mind for an instant that claiming right now would be a good idea is some major facepalm.

[archaebob]

@ nintendo -

So just to be clear, you're sticking with your vote on me?

[archaebob]

@ nintendoaddict -

It's not my job "to give you a good reason to remove it." The burden is on you to show everyone that your vote is helping town. What are you accomplishing with your vote right now?

@ ace -

We didn't get a reaction from her. She still hasn't responded to my question, and you just guaranteed that she won't. Here's my question to you: if she was scum, how would you know right now?

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched. You shouldn't have done what you just did, period. Cases aren't just about the people they are directed at; we might have caught scum trying to bandwagon, or maybe as they made a big show of

not

bandwagoning, or a million other alignment revealing reactions that people could have had to my case if you had just let it sit there for a sec. For example, I think we learned a fair amount about hiplop from his reaction to my case.

Also, did you see Jil's explanation for the FoS? It conflicts with your defense of her.

@ Heliman -

Can you provide the quotes from my meta that are bothering you?

[archaebob]

unvote vote Pine

Do something. You're still voting me for my

Giitah

vote? Give me a break.

@ everyone -

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote this lurker scum. He's done nothing, and his multiple failures to read the thread, combined with weird posts like this

@ Pine -

Do I get token town points for calmly responding to your unwarranted accusation?

No. And you get a few taken away for requesting them.

Yes, I'm serious.

make his more than deserving of a wagon in my eyes. If he's town, he needs a major kick in the ass. Right now he looks like scum camping on a plausible-looking vote without bothering to double check his posts, or make any attempt to pressure or question me.

[archaebob]

without... any attempt to pressure or question me.

You're saying Pine is scum because he is

not

pressuring or questioning you?

Yes. He doesn't seem to be very interested in catching scum, and I don't buy that he still suspects me for my Giitah vote. Do you?

And why the sudden jump to Pine? Did you find an answer from jil that no one else knows about?

No, but Ace has done everything in his power to prevent jil from feeling remotely pressured by my vote or my case. I've been waiting for jil to answer me for several pages now, and I need to move on.

Tell me nintendo. You don't like my play because of...something. Fine. Are you at all bothered by the total lack of content in Pine's posts? If he was scum, how would you know?

[archaebob]

@ Deuxieme -

Please don't go back to lurking.

Can you give your opinion on:

ace
hiplop
barry allen
demon hybrid

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

If you have a point to make about my meta, you need to provide quotes. Context is everything. I don't even know what game you're talking about right now.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument.

First ten pages, people talking about something instead of sitting on their asses. What's your point?

*cough* Also, I totally agree with Ace's post regarding your Jil case.

I do too. You want a cough drop?

This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument.

It doesn't invalidate my argument at all. What do you think my argument is exactly?

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

Plus, you certainly didn't complain when I brushed a few of the bad arguments off you.

I wasn't scumhunting me. I was scumhunting jil. There's lots of stuff I disagree with that I haven't commented on yet, and if you go after everything that bothers you, you lose focus.

A policy lynch? really?

I don't know what makes you think 1) that I'm pushing for a lynch or 2) that my Pine vote is purely based on policy.

Do you have any understanding of Day 1 play? It's page 10. Nobody is getting lynched.

Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

I haven't said that it doesn't apply to them. All you know is that I picked

one

target and made an argument about that

one

person.

Heliman, I have no patience for games. If you have an issue with me, drop a vote and make a case. Or don't. I don't care. But you need to be doing something that will give me more information about you and/or someone else. I'm not at all impressed with your cute questions, glib hints, or typed coughs. You are transparent as fucking air to me.

Man up and come after me, or go find something more productive to do with yourself. How about helping me find out why Pine hasn't done anything to help town?

[archaebob]

@ nintendo -

I'm not sure he suspects me at all. That's the whole point.

And you didn't answer my question from before. What are you accomplishing with your vote?

[archaebob]

@ ace - It's not just about her reactions. Pay attention to what I've already said on this point. Let's debate theory later.

@ nintendo -

Vote for someone. If you aren't going to vote pine, fine, but you need to pick a target. Help us learn about a player in this thread by making them respond to something you are doing.

[archaebob]

How much more of a reaction did you want from her? Would each additional question posed to her at L-2 have had a more useful reaction? Did we need to go to L-1? You say you were scumhunting Jil but if your idea of scumhunting is tunneling on someone for 10 (you wanted more actually) pages, how are we going to scumhunt everyone?

The only reason it took that long is because you decided to fuck me up half way through it. We had Jil at L-2 several pages ago. If we had kept her there, and you had kept your mouth shut, who knows how many other people we would have gotten to by now.

You're telling me to vote because you want me to? Shouldn't people vote when they feel it is necessary, for whatever purpose?

Yes, they should. I'm not telling you to vote "because I want you to." I can't force you to do anything. I'm simply suggesting a purpose for your vote that would help town.

So why do you not

feel

it is

necessary

to vote for Pine?

[archaebob]

Heliman, you're too smart to be making these arguments, and to be playing this way. I hate to break it to you, but I can see right through you bud.

fos Heliman

Pine has declared himself V/LA.

unvote vote Scumhunter

It's been ten pages. Where's your content.

[archaebob]

I don't read sigs. Several people voted you besides me. You have no accusations worth responding to. Are you V/LA or not?

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

You didn't quote my meta as I asked you to, so I'm not interested in defending myself. I've never lynched a player because they FoSed in RVS instead of voting. You are also missing some extremely obvious truths about me and about how this game is played, and I want to see if you can figure them out for yourself.. Your arguments are not as clear as you think they are, and if you've actually read any of my town meta, you'll quickly realize how weak the rest your "case" is, and how useless your attempt to push it will be.

You are standing on nothing, and you are giving yourself away.

Cheers.

@ everyone -

Ughh, god damn. You do realize that in doing so you're depraving all of us of information and you're not doing ANYTHING at all to help the town, right?

I promise to be one of the most active players in the game once things get interesting. I will do plenty to help us lynch right and will take all lynches seriously.

unvote

Fine. I'll be done with RVS. Next vote will be an actual suspicion or have a purpose at least. Once I start getting involved in the game I often times end up vote-hopping quite a bit. It's not a scumtell from me though.

What do you guys think of this post. Has he kept his promise? In an earlier post he said that he hated D1 and didn't want to play until pg 10. That's unacceptable for a town player in general, but I let it go at the time because it wasn't worth getting into a playstyle argument with someone right then. It is now page 11, and he is still not playing.

The only thing I know about him is what I learned from the last few sentences of that post.

Fine. I'll be done with RVS. Next vote will be an actual suspicion or have a purpose at least.

Once I start getting involved in the game I often times end up vote-hopping quite a bit. It's not a scumtell from me though.

Loudly announcing what you are going to do before you do it is much more characteristic of a mafia mindset than a town one. Town is secure in the sincerity of their actions, and for the most part just do things. It is a very common tendency in scum players to reflexively start over-explaining themselves; it gives them an armored vehicle of logic with which they can justify their lies.

To my eyes, the italicized section above is really saying:

"Let me tell you exactly what my play will look like, so that when I start actually posting I can defend myself against anything you might say about me. If you accuse me of vote hopping I can say 'LOOK! I already said I might vote hop, and that it's a town tell for me.'"

This is filled with way too much nervous energy for town. It's also CRAZY premature for him to be defending himself against something that not only has he not been attacked for, but that he hasn't even done yet.

We need to learn more about this guy.

[archaebob]

unvote vote scumhunter

unvote vote scumhunter

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

1) If you weren't voting me right now, who would you be voting and why?

2) What's the intended purpose of your current vote? Are you succeeding in your objective?

@ Demon Hybrid -

1) If you weren't voting Jil right now, who would you be voting and why?

2) What is the intended purpose of your current vote? Are you succeeding in your objective?

@ ScumHunter -

It's evening and you still haven't posted. Get cracking.

@ everyone -

All of you who are the sole person on your wagon (Barry Allen, Giitah, Ace, etc.), please join me in pressuring Scumhunter. You can clearly see that he deserves it. Afterwards, I promise to look closely at each of your top suspects and provide assistance to your scumhunting efforts if I think you are on to something.

We should all start doing this for each other. As Giitah, said, we only have ten days left. It is now time for the scumhunting efforts of the town to coalesce into one unstoppable force of justice, so that we maximize the slip potential of the scum by forcing them at all times to make a choice between conforming and resisting the town bandwagon. They will make themselves naked before us with their movements on to and off of the wagons in such an environment. You'll see.

In fact, with the way things are going so far, I think we might catch all three today.

Players who I still want to wagon before choosing the day's lynch:

Scumhunter
Deuxiem Octopus
Pine

I think Jil probably needs to be replaced.

Also, Spadille better post like a bitch when he turns up.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

You have no wagon, and you aren't trying to make one happen. You haven't posted any content in several pages, and you've posted almost close to zero

original

content all game. Your vote is on a lurker who clearly isn't here, and you are more than happy to just sit and wait on that vote without taking any steps to contribute meaningfully to discussion.

What am I supposed to make of you? You're way too smart to be playing like this.

I want to know who you think is scum and why.

And if you're just voting jil for lurking, then I would imagine she's interchangeable with another lurker, right? I've pointed out a legitimate reason to be suspicious of Scumhunter, and he actually seems to present in the thread right now. How about switching over and making yourself useful?

So far I don't have a single reason to think you are town.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

I'm not saying that jil has not done anything to deserve your vote. I'm saying that in the context of this game, your decision to continue voting her without doing anything else is too easy, and contributes too little to town. We may very well still lynch her today, but in the meantime you are accomplishing nothing. You don't look like town who doesn't know the roles and is trying to figure things out. You look like scum who has found a plausible justification for parking their vote on someone and is now just coasting through the day without doing anything else remotely helpful/risky.

If you were serious about wanting Jil dead, you would have been sitting here trying to draw attention to your points and persuade others onto a jil wagon. Instead you just disappeared.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that policy lynches can be pro-town in some situations. But deciding early in the day that you want a policy lynch and then just sitting there is enormously anti-town. We can get jil at the end of the day if that's really the best move. But in the meantime, do something. There's nothing else to be learned from voting jil right now, as she clearly isn't here.

You've missed some questions:

On a scale of 1 to 10, how effective has your jil vote been in reaching its objective? Why?

Who do you think is

scum

?

And...I take it you disagree that lurkers who fail to meet the content threshhold are interchangeable? Jil hasn't posted much, but I don't see her incentive for behaving the way she has as town OR scum. It just looks to me like she's disinterested and doesn't know how to play. That isn't an excuse, and she needs to eventually play or be lynched/replaced, but right now there are still players who we literally know

nothing

about, and you don't seem to care.

I don't buy your play at all.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

I'm moving so V/LA until Monday. Also, but I'll probably be in a horrible mood for the next week. God, I hate my parents.

Sorry you guys...

You noticed this post, right?

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

Again.

It's not about whether she deserves your suspicion. It's about

what are you doing right now to help town

.

We aren't lynching her right this second, yes? She isn't going to be here

at all

to answer questions or feel pressured by you until Monday, yes?

So your plan is to leave your vote on her and sit with your thumb up your ass until she gets back? Why not go after someone else, and then go back to her later when you might actually get some responses from her?

I'm

not

defending her play. I'm attacking yours for being useless.

And I don't see you doing anything to persuade anyone that jil is

scummy

instead of just anti-town.

What do you think of Heliman's attacks on me?

@ Heliman -

Since you are leaving, can you please answer my two questions to you super quick? You're going to be gone on an awful long time, and we're nearing the last phase or so of the day.

[archaebob]

~Deleted.

-pappums rat

[archaebob]

FUCK why is that all in bold. I'm going to go find a moderator.

[archaebob]

Yeah I know. The vote count is wrong too, because I didn't change it for all the simul on this page.

[archaebob]

@ Scumhunter -

It's not about Deux being scum. It's about us not knowing what he is, and about a wagon on him being protown for an enormous number of reasons. I've made it pretty clear that we're not out to lynch him immediately. But he needs to post.

I don't understand your objection, and it seems to ignore several important points that I laid out rather clearly in my post.

[archaebob]

EBWOP:

(mod just delete the first one)

Unofficial Votecount by archaebob

archaebob- 2 (Pine, Heliman)
jilynne1991 - 1 (DemonHybrid)
Pine - 1 (Deuxieme Octopus)
Heliman - 1 (Spadille)
Giitah - 1 (hiplop)
Scumhunter - 3 (archaebob, ace5993, Giitah)
ace5993 - 1 (Scumhunter)

not voting: Barry Allen, jilynne1991

Somebody should check this to make sure.

@ everyone -

This is an important moment in the game, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, and take a moment to explain some theory. Let's start by thinking critically about the nature of the two sides who are competing against each other for victory.

The town far outnumbers the scum, but begins the game not knowing who their enemies are. Usually the town has one or two PRs with them, but the large number of players makes these special roles relatively ineffective on their own. Without strong scumhunting efforts during the day to help with aim, PR night actions will certainly be less efficient than the scum NK. Therefore, the #1 priority of the town needs to be exposing the likely scum in the thread through votes, questions, pressure, and critical analysis.

There are two fundamental differences between the scum mindset and the town mindset:

1) Objective - Scum are trying to mislynch town. In the short term, they may bus a partner for strategic purposes, but ultimately the game is won by tricking the town into lynching town. To do this, they have to make persuasive arguments that they know are false, and push through lynches that they are know are incorrect while appearing sincere.

2) Information - Scum know who the other scum are. This means they have to feign ignorance in order to blend in with the town.

ALL scumtells come from this disparity in mindset. A scumtell is a post which demonstrates that the scum lacks either the 1) objective or 2) access to information of town.

It is important to note that there is nothing about being scum which makes you inherently less logical, less consistent, or less active. However, scum (particularly newb scum) often does

tend

in that direction as a means towards their objective. Uncreative and/or reckless scum will make bad cases to try and get mislynches, or will lurk to try and avoid posting as much. But to use a logical inconsistency or lack of activity as a "scum tell", you have to show how,

in this specific situation

, the behavior of the individual indicates that they are more likely to have a scum mindset than a town one.

So how does town win?

Town wins by taking advantage of this fundamental difference between themselves and the scum. It is the goal of the town to set up an environment in which town players do one thing, and scum does another. What sort of environment is that? The answer, if you think about it, is obvious. Town benefit from an environment in which scum has to fake the town 1) objective and 2) access to information as much as possible. If they succeed in this, the scum will reveal themselves plainly in their consistent failures to do what most helps town, and forget what town does not know.

For town to create this environment, the following needs to be true:

1) Town players must be able to recognize each other. That means that if you are town, you

must look town

. This does

not

mean trying to "appease" people by giving them what they want to hear. Anything you say that is fake or calculated will read as scummy to people. It also does not mean that you should try and do "what the town is doing" or do lots of things that are considered "town tells." All attempts to "seem" town will look contrived, because they will be.

What I mean by "town must look town" is that you must reveal what your role is simply by being truthful. You aren't trying to "look town" as much as you are trying to share your true feelings with the town in a way that is helpful and productive. This means you want to play honestly, openly, and amicably. Give your honest reactions to things without channeling them through a million logical filters. Logic is important, and you should check yourself to make sure you aren't making any stupid mistakes, but you don't want to completely lose the sincerity of gut reactions in your posts, as they will help town recognize you for what you are. Scum fundamentally cannot replicate a gut reaction, because they are always in the position of knowing who is town and who is not, and therefore having to consciously choose opinions. If everyone is being honest and open, the scum have to clumsily invent those reactions out of thin air, and thereby make themselves vulnerable to the sharp eyes of the town.

2) The second, harder part, which often conflicts with the first, is that the town needs to force scum to post as much alignment revealing content as possible. What kind of content is this? Emotional reactions, gut reads, level of certainty, etc. Anything that the scum cannot accurately replicate from with their inherently non-town mindset.

Remember that this does NOT involve logical consistency. Scum LOVE logic, because it is objective, and works the same way for town as it does for scum. The only time in which it makes sense to get into a logical debate with someone is when you think their

intentions

are false. If someone is deliberately hurting the town, and they are justifying their actions with poor logic, then you can remove their excuse by dismantling their argument. You then force them to either organically change their action (something scum cannot do), or to be stubborn past the point where they can pretend to have a town objective.

Now lets talk about Day 1.

At the beginning of Day 1, the environment overwhelmingly favors scum. Nobody knows anything about anyone, and there are too many players who haven't posted enough for the town to feel confident about who the other town are.

Therefore, I consider object 2 to be far more important in the early stages of the game. Everyone should focus their effort on maximizing the information that town has. The method that I have found and that you all have seen works well for me, but it does not necessarily involve looking like town, and not everyone's personality is suited to it. A town full of archaebob's would not be ideal, and in games where another player is already playing the part of provocateur, I often mold myself a little to avoid getting in their way. The main point here is that you pick a technique, and that you use it as efficiently as you can to make people tell you about themselves.

That has been the Day 1 of this game up till now. Some players have been more successful than others, but for the most part, individuals have picked out other individuals and enticed content from them with votes and questioning.

After 12 pages, we now have the scum in two categories: 1) lurkers, 2) players who have already committed themselves to an active post rate.

What needs to happen now is twofold:

1) We need to force these last lurkers out of hiding. Town cannot win if one of them is sitting on a scum role, abut town also cannot win by indiscriminately policy lynching all them. This means we need to make it clear to them that the game will not progress in a manner favorable to them without their content. A focused bandwagon that comes together significantly BEFORE deadline is usually effective.

2) We need to start looking at everyone and thinking about who among the more active posters could be scum. Everybody, myself included, has a tendency to tunnel on their primary suspect, and only skim conversations between other players. Now it the time to go back and reread the thread, thinking critically about each player and the conversations that have taken place. As you begin to form your scumlist, you will observe how players react to these final bandwagons, and notice who is being strangely stubborn, or who is awkwardly changing their vote for no reason.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is now time to start looking town, and for everyone in the thread to cooperate in applying maximum pressure to these last few lurkers. Town doesn't know who is leading the wagons. Furthermore, town KNOWS that they are town. Therefore, their response to the wagon will be laced with a million little subconscious elements that will make their reaction feel sincere. Scum can't invent a gut reaction, and therefore have to

consciously choose

how to react each time. The latter will stick out like a sore thumb.

In the meantime, the scum who have already been active have to choose to either support or resist each lurker wagon. If they suddenly become a lurker and abstain from voting, they will stick out. If they resist the wagon, they have to justify themselves. If they join the wagon, they will be helping town be more efficient with its Day 1 efforts, and may make other mistakes along the way.

Now, every time I make a post like this, I invariably get the "manipulative scumbob telling everyone what to do" response, so let me quickly explain why I'm posting this:

1) Reading this whole thing will royally fuck with the scum, especially if we actually follow the plan. Even now as they are reading, their mind is racing as they try to figure out what the most natural-seeming response to this post is, and what they should do next.

2) This post is the beginning of

my

attempts to appear town. I have made myself deliberately abrasive and enigmatic up till this point, which is something I always do because I think it generates a lot of information. I recognize, however, that none of you can be sure of my alignment yet, and that many of you have questions about my actions today. It is in my interest now to make you at ease with me, as I want your cooperation in wagoning these final lurkers and in choosing the lynch.

Believe me, I am

extremely

aware that from your perspective, I could very well be scum who is doing all this as part of one giant ploy for town cred. Once again, I don't expect you to trust me just yet. However, I do expect you to recognize that everything I've said above is valid pro-town reasoning, and that it is in your interest to cooperate with it. We need information from these last lurkers, and the best way to get it is for all of us to work together. Scum may try to blend in, but they will be doing so under the focused scrutiny of the town. Once we have all the information we need to move comfortably into Day 2, then we can spend the very last days before deadline arguing over who to lynch.

The main point is that all of you people who are crossvoting and/or are the only person on your wagon need to make a compromise with each other to get shit done.

If you have questions about anything I've done today, I will now answer them.

And on that note, PLEASE vote Deuxiem Octopus with me. I will be commenting on every player, including ace and barry after we have taken care of priorities, which is making sure that a lurker isn't sitting on a scum role.

unvote vote Deuxiem Octopus

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

It wasn't obvious, because people aren't doing it. Like you. I tried to explain the reasoning in depth so that people would be persuaded. You evidently are not persuaded. Why not?

I have no clue what the scum motivation could be and that's not the point. Do you believe that his claiming to lurk confirms him as town?

We need him to say more stuff, period.

[archaebob]

@ Demon Hybrid -

Who knows. I personally would like to hear his explanation for why he might have said that, instead of yours.

Is there some reason you don't want to switch your vote to him? I was pretty thorough with my explanation, and you're smart enough to recognize that these aren't real objections.

[archaebob]

@ Barry Allen -

I imagine you disagree with me on this point, but it is always pro-town to have your vote on someone during Day 1, regardless of how strong your suspicions are. The danger of a quick lynch is very low, and votes contribute to information and force you to stake out a position.

Please vote someone, preferably Deuxieme Octopus.

[archaebob]

@ Barry Allen -

Good man. Do you have a town meta on this site? If so, please link it here, I'd like to look at it.

@ Scumhunter -

The mod is on some serious V/LA, we don't have time for this. Also, keep in mind that we will learn more about Ace as well in how he reacts to the wagon.

Think about this logically:

If

we lynch ace today, will we be lynching him before deadline?

No

.

Is ace in need of a pressure wagon?

No.

He posts regularly on his own. He may be in need of a lynch wagon, but like I said, we're clearly not at that point yet.

Do you know for sure that ace is scum? 100%?

No.

Do you know for sure that Deuxieme Octopus is town? 100%?

No.

Do you know for sure that Deuxieme would not turn out to be

more

suspicious to you if he was actually posting?

No

, because he isn't posting.

Is it a good use of your time to waste these last 8 days waiting around for an ace lynch?

No.

Especially since you aren't doing much to really push that.

Will pressure voting Deuxieme in the short term prevent you from arguing for an ace lynch as we near deadline?

No.

Is there any conceivable reason that refusing to join this wagon helps town?

No.

@ DemonHybrid -

You are still missing my main point, and I'm getting the sense that it's deliberate. Respond to my actual argument. It doesn't matter that you see one line from Deuxieme Octopus as a town tell.

You are trying to justify your refusal to vote for Deuxieme Octopus by asserting that there is

no way

he could

possibly

be scum because he said this:

Vote: Pine

. This will sound like total buddying, but I've read through the game thus far (sorry for the absence, was at Bonnaroo -- thought i'd have 3G but didn't) and I found that when you read Pine in iso like archaebob suggests, it definitely comes across as more than a bit vacuous and therefore, fishy. Over 10 pages of posting, Pine drops in a quiet 9 that, with the exception of the "big" post where he unvote-votes bob, are generally obsessed with rolefishing. His last 5 posts have all been like some sort of list of maxims or something, little one-sentence deals such as

Generally, the only people that start the game looking for third party roles are scum themselves.

Well that's enough for the Deuxieme.

Back to lurking.

which has "no conceivable scum motivation".

I say bullshit for two reasons:

1) He could easily be scum. You don't have any where near enough information about this player to definitively rule out that one line as a wifom tactic, joke, or even a genuine newbie slip. Your attitude and forcefulness strongly suggests that you know more about the roles than an uninformed town player would.

2) Saying you think he's town is completely missing the point. He isn't posting. He needs to. Even if he's town, his reads and insights are valuable, because if he gets killed, we can look to his gut reads as being genuine. But more importantly than that, this wagon will give us more information about the other players in the game as they decide to support or resist it. Unlike an individual vote on one player, large wagons can't be ignored. If a player declines to comment on a five person bandwagon, it's conspicuous. Scum have to stake out a position on each wagon in a way they never have to do with individual votes.

Why are you resisting this plan, Demon Hybrid? I've asked you to explain yourself twice now, and your response each time has just been to reiterate why you think Deuxieme Octopus is probably town based on a three line quote from one of his only two posts in the game.

I don't buy it.

[archaebob]

@ Scumhunter -

Which one of these statements do you not understand/agree with:

Town needs to maximize the information it has in order to win.
Generally, we should avoid lynching before it gets close to deadline, so that we make the most of our time.
Lurkers are bad for the town because we know very little about them.
You don't know how Deuxieme Octopus would look to you if he was posting more. Two posts are not enough to formulate a strong town read.
Town will be better off if all of the lurkers are forced to post.
It is possible to pressure the lurker and still have time to lynch scum if you act quickly without wasting time on arguing and stubbornness.

I never said an ace lynch can't happen, I said that it

shouldn't

happen until town has all the information it can possibly squeeze out of this day. I think we should be squeezing more information from Deuxieme Octopus, and I can't imagine that you are confident enough in your town read on him to let this day end without hearing more.

@ Pine - I've seen you online several times. You need to post. There is an enormous amount to comment on, and you clearly are not V/LA.

While you are at it, name one thing you have done to help town, and your top scum suspect.

[archaebob]

@ hiplop -

What do you think of all this?

If you had to pick one player to lynch right now, who would it be?

[archaebob]

There's another game right now which is frustrating the fuck out of me and taking up all my time, so I may be absent from this thread for a day or two.

In any case, the rest of the lurkers are being replaced, which means it's time to lynch scum.

unvote

Everyone should go ahead vote for their top lynch candidate of the day now. Also, make a mini-case. By mini-case I mean you pick your three strongest points and pick a few key quotes and you make your position

extremely

clear. I don't care how you do it or if you want to make your case longer than that, but at this point everyone should be staking out their positions in fairly unambiguous terms.

I don't usually post town lists, but I'm going to go ahead and do one right now:

ace5993 - Town.

BarryAllen - Very difficult to read. A lot of nervous energy and a very deliberate passive/logical tone. Scum LOVE playing like that. However, it does match his town meta...he's always writing with these dot dot dots...makes him seem really unsure about everything...easy style to keep consistent regardless of alignment. He's reasonably intelligent and a fairly coherent poster, which makes me unhappy with his tunneling of hiplop. I need to look a lot more closely at this, because it's weird.

DemonHybrid - Scum.

Spoiler: he's going to die today.

Giitah - Probably town.

Heliman - Scum.

hiplop - Town.

nintendoaddict1 - Probably town, but could be doing a lot more to make me confident in that read.

Pine - Horrible, horrible play. I'd normally say he's a VI, but he doesn't sound like an idiot when he writes. He just hasn't spent any time on this game, and has no idea how to play. No clue about his alignment right now. Contributed nothing, ridiculous positions, but not easy to read because of lack of content. If there's a vig out there, this is your man.

Scumhunter - I don't buy his explanations. I don't buy his refusal to join my wagon. I don't buy his vote on ace. Some of his play looks like stubborn town, but other parts look a lot like overeager scum. He's clearly a very smart guy and a good writer, and this conflicts with some of what he's said/done. Need to see more from him. Gut says scum.

And on that note,

vote DemonHybrid

I will make a detailed case of him at the next available opportunity. In the meantime, my ISO should give you a fair idea of where I stand.

@ the replacements for deuxieme, jil, and Spadille

-

You can see that I'm paranoid about lurkers.

So...

If you are town, PLEASE post as much as humanly possible in the next couple of days. You have no reason not to do this, and it will help us enormously if we don't get distracted near deadline by one of you three because you are posting no content. I have zero read on all three of you right now, and bobby don't like having no read.

[archaebob]

@ foilist13 -

What's your impression of DemonHybrid? Please look carefully before you answer.

@ Pine -

Pine - Horrible, horrible play. I'd normally say he's a VI, but he doesn't sound like an idiot when he writes. He just hasn't spent any time on this game, and has no idea how to play. No clue about his alignment right now. Contributed nothing, ridiculous positions, but not easy to read because of lack of content. If there's a vig out there, this is your man.

V/LA

NO INTERNET.

This constant position by archaebob should tell you something. He's scared, and he's scared of me. Scared that if he doesn't get rid of me before I'm back full-time on Tuesday, he's going to go down. So he tried to lynch me. Now he's trying to get me vig'd, and failing that, discredit me by calling my reads horrible and ridiculous.

This man is scum running scared.

You need help.

[archaebob]

Incoming DemonHybrid case, give me a bit.

@ foilist13 -

I think nintendoaddict is probably town, and that it would not serve anything for

me

to explain why your case mostly fails.

[archaebob]

DemonHybrid: A Life

PART 1

I first became irked with DemonHybrid in the very early pages of this game. It started with this post, in which DH defends my RVS actions against hiplop and votes him for having “the sketchiest vote of everyone.” Now, this first post isn’t particularly scummy on its own, but it IS weird, for two reasons:

1) He acts as if Hiplop’s vote on me is serious, which it clearly isn’t.
2) He defends my play, which is clearly not necessary.

The first thing I ask of everyone is to reread the first three pages of this game in its entirety, to get an intuitive feel for how everything looked then. Posts were short then, so it should take very little time. The important thing is to try and imagine that you are seeing it for the first time. As we go through the rest of his play, imagine that you are DemonHybrid, and that you are town. In doing so, try to build an image of what your personality is, how you see things, and what your motivation is for each post.

In post 54, I vote jilynne without explaining myself at all. Immediately after, nintendo FoSes me because he doesn’t like the fact that I’m sheeping Barry Allen. Now look at DH’s response to this in post 56:

FoS: Everyone who is against bob for not realizing how town the guy is

Try and erase from your memory the majority of this game, and just look at the first few pages. It’s hard for me to picture why I, as Demon Hybrid, would feel the need to write this. Let’s assume for a moment that I, a town player, have seen players like archaebob before. In my experience, players that do what he is doing are usually town, and their play is very helpful. Therefore, I am annoyed at nintendoaddict for accusing him of being a sheep…and I’m going to make sure the rest of the town

stops suspecting archaebob

(because we CAN'T have that) by joke FoSing them.

Does that feel like town to you? It really doesn't to me.

Town doesn’t know the roles, and most of you were very wary of me, at least in the beginning. How is it that DH was so confident that he felt comfortable not only assuming I was town, but also proactively derailing any suspicions of me as soon as people posted them? This was page

3

people. Town has no reason to buddy that hard.

And DH was totally serious about defending me too, as evidenced in his next post:

unvote vote jilynne1991

Nintendo/hiplop, do you really think this post has scum motivation? If so, why?

Also, there's valid suspicion against jilynne1991. Nintendo's FoS may have just been a townie mistake; hiplop is definitely scum, but jilynne1991 is worth looking into.

This whole post bespeaks of someone whose mind is racing to uncover the reasons for everything archaebob does and appear perceptive and towny by sharing them with everyone. Let's take a look:

Nintendo’s FoS may have just been a townie mistake;

um, okay…what are you saying here exactly? I guess this is a description of my thought process, and why I moved my vote off of nintendo? Why are you even sharing speculations like this?

hiplop is definitely scum, but jilynne1991 is worth looking into.

I doubt he means the bit about hiplop seriously at this stage, but either way, it feels really weird. DH is in the process of defending me, and he seems to be pretty serious about it. So, saying that hiplop is “definitely scum” is a really weird assertion to insert into the middle of that sentence, isn’t it? Read the whole post again, in its entirety. In fact, it feels to me like he’s trying to explain ahead of time why he isn’t himself moving his vote over to jilynne.

"I want everyone to know that I agree with archaebob and think he's town, but BEFORE YOU ACCUSE ME OF CONTRADICTING MYSELF, I'm going to keep my vote where it is anyways because hiplop is

definitely

scum. That's noNOT to say I don't agree with archaebob though! Honest! I think hiplop is scum, but I can think that and STILL think that archaebob is doing the right thing by looking into jilynne! Do you guys all understand what I'm saying???? Good, I'm glad you all think I'm town."

This is

way too much explanation and qualification to becoming from town at this point in the game.

Why is he posting like this? He's not even being attacked!

Meh, whatever the hell it is, it’s nervous and awkward, and doesn’t sit with me at all.
Think about it. You are DemonHybrid. Why are you choosing to defend archaebob, and come up with these super specific hypothetical explanations of his thought process? Aren’t you at all curious about what this guy is doing, and if his intentions are true? Why do you want to be his friend so badly?

This is all gut, but I really think he would have been more rebellious and even-handed with me if he were town. It's not adding up.

In any case, even if you find nothing damning yet, we're getting a very strange and very specific image of who he would have to be if he were town.

Next post, DemonHybrid outs my pressure vote. Why?

Why is his top agenda explaining everything that I’m doing to the town? If he was town, and he thought my vote was a pressure vote, he’d be curious to see what came of it, not give away the answer. From my experience, it’s scum who is most interested in identifying pressure votes, and this looks to me like another part of his subconscious effort to be ultra-logical, and to neutralize my play. Why would a town player analyze my pressure vote like that to

make sure

nobody suspected me unfairly? It doesn’t add up.

He keeps doing it, too. I don’t understand how he’s so confident in his opinion of what I’m doing! And it’s not just that he seems to somehow know for a fact that I’m town...he feels completely comfortable

saying

it too! Put yourself in his shoes. If you were town, wouldn’t you feel awkward explaining someone else’s play this proactively in the first few pages of the game? What could his motivation be for doing it? And I haven’t even gotten into the biggest problem here, which is that if he genuinely understands that my vote is a pressure vote, w

hy is he doing everything in his power to make it worthless

? If he’s familiar with players like me, he also knows that we don’t need his help defending ourselves.

This isn't town thinking, period.

Wow. Smh.

Also,

Unvote, Vote: jilynne1991

. My vote seems to be decaying on hiplop and jilynne is still very likely scum. Heliman and Barry Allen have it right on.

It’s just...weird. His explanation for his vote shift is weird. Nothing has happened yet, so how is his hiplop vote "decaying"? He seems to be serious here about jilynne being “very likely scum”, and I just don’t see how that’s possible. If he was legit town joining my wagon to help me pressure jil...it would look different, wouldn't it? And even if we accept that he believes jil is "still very likely scum", the phrasing of it as a justification for his belated vote switch is weaksauce and reminds me on every level of how I think about things when I'm scum. It’s just too

nervous

. The whole thing. And why the mention of Heliman and Barry Allen at the end?

"Just want to make sure no one accuses me of sheeping them, which they totally can't do if I say their names."

Read the quote again in its entirety. It reeks of a scum mindset. He’s logical, amicable, and makes every machination of his thought process transparent to the town so there’s nothing to attack him with later.

This post is also weird, but I’m not going to spend time on it.

Soon, Hiplop votes DemonHybrid, and gets this response:

unvote, vote demonhybrid[/vote]

calling someone definite scum o n the second page, over a RV. Plus blindly following bobby

Yes, you stay in your little dream world where you can sit back and not make any accusations. I'll be here scumhunting.

This whole response is trying too hard.

“I’m going to show you just how

totally not scared

I am of your vote by making this clever comeback LOOK HOW TOWN I AM BITCH”

So far, I’m getting two distinct DemonHybrid’s in this game:

1) Assertive, sarcastic, aggressive; archaebob wannabe - This is the real DemonHybrid, and it’s the inner townie that comes out in a lot of his posts when he’s confident in what he’s lying about. He's glib, sometimes clever, and an intelligent and direct poster.

2) Over explaining, nervous, buddying scumbag - You guys see it right? This side of him always comes out in the same moments, which is when he's fabricating one of the fundamentally town behaviors, such as changing your mind about who to vote, or suspecting someone for reasons that aren't all completely logical.

More weirdness. He’s now defending his buddying of me to hiplop and telling him to “be more serious.” This seems to suggest that he’s not all that confident in his scum read of hiplop. I assumed that his whole “hiplop is definitely scum” thing was a deliberate exaggeration, similar to what I was doing. That would make sense, right? But then DemonHybrid posts this sequence of posts:

unvote

vote archaebob

for taking everything too seriously

This was a joke vote?

THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION

unvote

vote archaebob

for taking everything too seriously

This was a joke vote?

yea

Okay, so again, the fact that you're taking nothing seriously shows a lack of scumhunting if that is true (as well as the fact that you completely went pages misleading people without saying anything). If it's not true, there's that whole lying thing, as well as the fact that you, again, take nothing seriously, and therefore aren't scumhunting.

Yes, this is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, but you deserve it.

People, this is

textbook

scum. I mean, look at this!

Okay, so again, the fact that you're taking nothing seriously shows a lack of scumhunting

if that is true

...

What do you mean “if that is true”??? Listen buddy, I

might

be willing to buy that you misinterpreted his vote the first time around, but there is no chance in hell that town-DemonHybrid is still making an issue out of this after hiplop

explains

that it was a joke.

...(as well as the fact that you completely went pages misleading people without saying anything).”

No. He didn’t mislead anyone. You tunneled on bullshit. And in any case, this is no different from you pretending that you thought he was “definitely scum.”

...If it's not true, there's that whole lying thing, as well as the fact that you, again, take nothing seriously, and therefore aren't scumhunting…

Are you serious right now? You are positing as a hypothetical the possibility that hiplop is lying...and then saying that he would still be scummy in that case...because he was lying?

I’m glad you have all your bases covered.

Yes, this is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, but you deserve it.

You guys, this last sentence is like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat. How much more obvscum can you get?

Reasons why this statement can only come from scum:

1) Sincere town players typically don’t notice when they are putting their targets in abstract bullshit concepts like “damned if you do damned if you don’t situations.”

2) A sincere town player who did happen notice in one instance would probably just decide to exclude that argument, because they would recognize that it is flawed/less persuasive.

3) A sincere town player who both noticed the flaw AND decided (for some obscure strategic purpose) to still include it would probably not identify the flaw themselves and give some weaksauce justification for it. It’s obvious what you are doing. “Let me bring up the flaw so I can show everyone that I noticed it myself and nobody can attack me.”

4) He really doesn’t deserve it. And if you really thought he did, if you REALLY thought he was SO scummy that he deserved a flawed argument even though you KNEW it was flawed beforehand, then you would have been voting

him

instead of the thirteen year old who wasn’t doing anything.

*cue DemonHybrid dedicating his whole defense to attacking the very last line above this one

You guys, look at this whole post in its entirety again:

unvote

vote archaebob

for taking everything too seriously

This was a joke vote?

yea

Okay, so again, the fact that you're taking nothing seriously shows a lack of scumhunting if that is true (as well as the fact that you completely went pages misleading people without saying anything). If it's not true, there's that whole lying thing, as well as the fact that you, again, take nothing seriously, and therefore aren't scumhunting.

Yes, this is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, but you deserve it.

DemonHybrid is smart enough to know that this argument is BS. It sounds SO stretched. Just read it to yourself and imagine writing it.

This is SCUM who is trying to justify suspicions on somebody that aren't genuine, and doing a hack job of it.

Anyways, this is all of DH’s play up to my FoS of him, and I already think it’s more than enough. Depending on the reaction to this, and how much time I have, I'll try and do some more.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Um, hold up, I never lynched you

because

you defended me. That's a pretty unbelievable stretch actually, to compare DH's play in this game to your play in that game. Do you want to make this analogy clearer? I'm obviously missing something.

Now what would you tell me if I told you that your play so far is making me nervous as shit?

[archaebob]

2) I would laugh.

You should fucking

cry

. Regardless of alignment.

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

I'm actually a little unsure on this point of theory. If DH is telling the truth, is it the right play for him to out his partner? If he dies without telling us than his partner will never be confirmed. I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind not saying anything.

[archaebob]

So long as we do actually lynch DH on Day 3, fine.

unvote vote Pine

Needs to post a lot more content than he has, and I don't buy that last vote switch.

[archaebob]

You realize she is being replaced, right?

[archaebob]

I think Heliman is scum.

[archaebob]

unvote vote Barry Allen

Pine, you are able to post. You want us to wait for 48 more hours when the vote is already at L-2? I believe any player deserves a chance to post a defense. But, given that you CAN post and are checking the thread I don't think it is right to wait until Wednesday to move my vote from hiplop to you. It isn't reasonable to ask us to wait until the 22nd for a defense, especially when you are proving you have access and can post. If you have something to say, please say it now.

You are officially tipping over from "weird and unreadable" to "scummy" with all of the opportunistic foreshadowing in that post.

@ everyone -

You guys, we should give Pine until Wednesday, and I'm not feeling Barry Allen right now at all. There's a lot of stuff in his play I've been deliberately ignoring because it seemed to stem from his unique playstyle, but I've had enough. This last post was WAY scum.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

How do you feel about Barry Allen's last post? I really don't like the tone of it. To me it's textbook scum fabricating a gradual progression of thought and weaving it into the thread to simulate a town person changing their mind.

Hurray! Let's lynch the guy on vacation!

I won't be able to make an effective defense against this complete bullshit of a wagon on me until I'm posting from something other than my phone. I get home very late tomorrow, so expect a wallpost Wednesday.

Pine, you

are

able to post. You want us to wait for 48 more hours when the vote is already at L-2? I believe any player deserves a chance to post a defense.

But, given that you CAN post and are checking the thread I don't think it is right to wait until Wednesday to move my vote from hiplop to you.

It isn't reasonable to ask us to wait until the 22nd for a defense, especially when you are proving you have access and can post. If you have something to say, please say it now.

This sounds like Barry Allen has already planned on "moving his vote over" to Pine at the next available opportunity.

OK, before I hit the road for a looooong drive for work, I want to throw out some quick thoughts on what has been happening lately.

1. Bob makes an interesting argument on DH.

I'm not certain I agree with every point raised by Bob on DH, but it does cast a suspicion on DH that made me pay attention.

The role claim afterward does give me a bit of pause as far as a D1 vote. However, (see point 2)
2. Pine caught my attention just as much by "reversing my (Pine's) stance on Bob" and quickly voting DH. It was a VERY convenient and all-too-quick jump for my taste.
3.

But, Pine is still V/LA and even though 1 day is left and "he's semi-posting" I would rather wait for a defense before switching a vote.

Bottom line is that I'm still concerned about hiplop, jil and Pine, with an "I don't know but I'm not happy with" type read on Nintendoaddict. My vote is still on hiplop for now,

but that is something I'll review more closely when I can get back on late tonight.

Everything blue is scummy. I was ignoring a lot of it because he seems to just be overly cautious and weird in general, but I can't justify his stance on Pine at this point. You don't "wait for a defense before switching a vote". You either think he's scum or you don't, and you

demand

a defense accordingly. This sounds like Barry Allen has already decided he's going to vote Pine, and is just waiting for the bureaucratic technicality of a defense before doing so. There's nothing unreasonable about Pine's request that we wait until Wednesday, and Barry Allen's response to him is just not right all.

I held off on my vote due to waiting for hiplop to come back and reply/defend before I did anything else. That being said, I have no problem with a little pressure on the 8-legged player in the meantime. I don't like the lack of contribution, as it does prevent us from being able to have any sort of read. So, for now...I don't mind making the vote:

VOTE: Deuxieme Octopus

Didn't seem to have a problem voting someone without hearing a defense first earlier in the game.

Also, his case on hiplop feels really contrived to me as well.

Ace, are you like me in that you stopped paying close attention to Barry after deciding that his meta was just weird? If so, I'd like you to look at him again now.

[archaebob]

Hurray! Let's lynch the guy on vacation!

I won't be able to make an effective defense against this complete bullshit of a wagon on me until I'm posting from something other than my phone. I get home very late tomorrow, so expect a wallpost Wednesday.

Pine, you

are

able to post. You want us to wait for 48 more hours when the vote is already at L-2? I believe any player deserves a chance to post a defense. But, given that you CAN post and are checking the thread

I don't think it is right to wait until Wednesday to move my vote

from hiplop to you.

It isn't reasonable to ask us to wait until the 22nd for a defense

, especially when you are proving you have access and can post.

If you have something to say, please say it now.

Look at the blue. If you meant all this, why didn't you vote him right then? You seem to be implying that you

would

put him to L-1 if he continued to not defend himself.

Also, what exactly seems unreasonable to you about having limited access to a thread and therefore being unable to respond to a text wall properly? Pine's request for more time makes *perfect* sense.

@ ace -

To what extent did you stop seriously looking at Barry Allen after deciding that he just had a weird meta? I know I kind of gave him a free pass, and if you did too, I'm asking you to look at him more closely now and reconsider.

[archaebob]

@ BarryAllen -

must be a great smart phone to allow him to keep up with the thread and post as much as he has while "V/LA"

How old are you?

[archaebob]

@ Barry Allen -

Your alignment has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with you. A player that was consistently reckless and cocksure could vote someone to L-1 in this situation without my thinking they were scum. It's a question of whether or not you are consistent with how I think

you

would act as town. The reckless player who suddenly stalls for time and makes up poor reasons for not switching his vote at the last second would be scummy.

In any case, Pine's description of his situation and request for more time are completely believable to me, so I'd appreciate it if you would put this issue to rest.

While we're here, can you please quickly summarize your reasons for finding hiplop scummy? Right now I find your whole case against him to be misguided at best, and downright manipulative sounding at times. All I'm asking for is your three top points, and a link to a post of yours where you articulated the issue.

[archaebob]

I present to the jury three town games and a scum game, none of which feature Nintendoaddict feeling the need to preface his vote with an "RVS:" If it's scummy that he felt the need to do so, it's even more scummy that he felt the need to lie about why he was doing it.

You mention nintendoaddict being scummy for two reasons:

1) "he felt the need to do so" in the first place [label his vote an RVS vote]
2) he lied about it being something he always does

To make your second point, you link to four games where the labeling is absence, including a game where he is scum.

Ahem.

including a game where he is scum

This destroys the first point, and you should not be still trying to make it. All this "if he was scummy at first, he's

EVEN SCUMMIER

after lying about it" is complete BS.

Why does it look to me like you are softly misrepresenting his play in an attempt to justify a vote later on?

unvote vote Valern

[archaebob]

unvote

Screw it, this is getting pathetic.

I'mma just wait for Pine to come back.

[archaebob]

I got a lot of information about him in his last couple of posts which have given me a way of seeing him as town. I think his case on you is ill-advised, but stems from inexperience and a lack of clear understanding about what scumminess actually looks like rather than an attempt to push a mislynch. The kinds of points he is making are what I would expect from an older player who is relatively new to this and is convinced that methodical and fair-minded logic is the key to success. Also, his reaction and defense to my posts sound towny to me.

Everything he's said about you is true, hiplop. He just doesn't realize that they are town-tells.

He still doesn't make me very comfortable, because his meta would be extremely easy for him to duplicate as scum. But for now I'm going to assume he's town and just hope he gets killed/investigated before lylo. I definitely don't think he'd make a very good lynch today.

[archaebob]

@ Valern - Yes, I do disagree. Lying is only a scum tell when it indicates a scum mindset. I have a hard time imagining scum-nintendo sitting at his computer and consciously choosing to lie about his meta history to avoid the suspicion on him at that point in the game. To me, it's null.

[archaebob]

I can't see why you aren't jumping on this.

Because it's exactly the kind of "lie" that I once lynched a cop for. You see that, right? Where's the actual substance in nintendo's dishonesty?

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Not a newbie? You see his join date, right? This isn't his very first adventure in the Road to Rome, but that doesn't mean he isn't still a relatively inexperienced player.

Also, being a newbie has nothing to do with it. If an experienced player told the lie that nintendo did, would you consider

that

a scumtell? I wouldn't. The stakes are too low and the content is too superficial for it to really make sense as a scum maneuver. What did nintendo really get out of his lie? The fact that nintendo is by temperament capable of telling this lie at all, as newb or as veteran, just suggests a reflexive tendency to bend the facts a little when there's a more elegant solution than the raw truth.

Think about it.

A player either understands why lying about their past history is a bad idea

regardless

of alignment, or they don't. If they

don't

understand it, then isn't it possible to imagine why someone might conceivably edit their history as town, especially on something superficial like labeling rvs votes? Shit, I could do that in my sleep, without even realizing it. I bet you could too.

And on the flip side, if you

do

understand why it's a bad idea, then why on earth would you consciously do it as scum?

Basically, I don't buy the story that the prosecution is trying to tell here:

that nintendoaddict, a scum player, and someone who

is

experienced enough to know that lying is always anti-town, was

so panicked

by the pressure on him that he made up an excuse that he knew full well was false in a desperate effort to defend himself.

That's the only interpretation of the facts I see in which the lie is scum-motivated.

For me, this story is unpersuasive, and the lie is null.

[archaebob]

The ONLY reason one would have to tell such a lie is to appear less scummy.

Yes, but it's not only scum that want to appear less scummy.

You're not going to make me go find the link, are you?

[archaebob]

I wasn't lying = null. Wow, nice logic.

Yes, nintendo. Why wouldn't it be?

[archaebob]

@ foilist13 -

Because we have nothing to do, so we're talking about theory.

Heliman is V/LA, and I don't understand your desire to bring this up. If I'm not making a case, I probably have a reason, right?

I strongly suggest that you discontinue this line of conversation.

[archaebob]

@ Pine -

Cool story bro. I'm glad you made it. Hope to hear from you tomorrow.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

You know, I

could

make a case, but I don't think I want to lynch you today, and I'm against the idea of playing out my hand before it comes time to bounce.

So, no, I'm good for now.

If you want, you can try and improve your arguments and see if people pay more attention the second time around.

Or, even better, you can

refuse

to restate your case in an act of defiance (cause you "already posted it"), and just keep up with this charade of being a stubborn townie while continuing to do nothing.

Either one will be a more than adequate substitute for my case.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

Clarify this one point though:

You are voting me because you genuinely think I'm scum for all the reasons laid out in your case, yes? And unless I give you a better response than I have, you are advocating my lynch?

[archaebob]

I'm going to time how long it takes you to go back and reread your case before you answer this.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

Ok. I'll make you a deal. If you go back and actually quote the meta like I asked you to, I'll respond to your whole "case" tomorrow evening.

Actually, lemme sweeten the deal.

If you do that for me, depending on how things go with Pine, I

might

even get you lynched today. No promises there, but it's a distinct possibility.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

First of all, where did you go?

Second of all, please breadcrumb your partner's name somewhere and tell him where it is tonight. This is absolutely essential. Especially since you still look like scum to me.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

Thanks for the link. A couple last questions:

How many games have you played on this site? If you have a town meta, please link it.

Who do you most suspect after jil and myself?

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

No, I don't have a thing against anyone calling their scum picks, and if it seems like I did at some point in the past, then I've obviously changed my mind since then. In any case, I do remember is disliking

town

lists, but I'm less hung up on that now, as evidenced by the one I posted myself in this game.

@ Foilist -

Why are you so concerned with my opinion of you?

[archaebob]

@ Foilist -

Pressure questions:

What would your line of reasoning have been if you weren't 95% sure that the conclusion is false?

What is making you 95% sure of anything right now, and why do you trust

it

over your reasoning?

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

How do you feel about foilist?

[archaebob]

@ heliman -

No I mean in general. What do you think of him?

@ foilist -

Good save.

Either you're convinced by my play that I'm town, convinced by my play that I'm scum, or you're scum and you know my alignment already.

You know I'm not scum. You also know that whatever I think of you, I'm probably not wrong.

Which brings me back to my original question. Why are you so concerned with my opinion?

Knowing that I'm town, and that I have at least an 85% shot at correctly guessing your alignment from your first five posts, why on earth would you be worried about my opinion of you simply because I haven't taken steps to make it clear yet?

[archaebob]

@ ace -

I'm not mad about DH at all, I'm just not persuaded that mason fake claims never happen. Especially with a site wide meta that seems to pretty much assume that a claimed mason D1 is confirmed. I do see the disadvantages of the claim to scum, but it seems to me that those disadvantages mostly kick in after they are forced to hard claim one of their scum partners.

But meh, I don't really care that much as long as we do that safety measure you talked about earlier.

Now but wait a second mister. What have I done that is "absurd"? That was a

mean

thing to say. Why are you being

mean

?

Honestly, I'm just waiting for Pine to post, and in the meantime I'm dicking around with whoever happens to be here. It hasn't been a waste of time though, and I have no clue what you mean by "flailing." Also, I understand that I might sound a little "cocky" at times, but I think that if you pay close attention to context you'll realize that that isn't really true either. Heliman is just scum, and he doesn't realize that he's going to die because

you

don't realize it, and that's giving him confidence.

But on a separate note, what do you think of foilist?

@ foilist13 -

When we're both town I don't typically have a lot of questions for you. I'm not sure how this has been all that different from say, Newbie 968. Forgive me, but I'm having a hard time seeing that post coming from town right now.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

That is precisely the history I have with foilist, and you honestly aren't in a position to judge whether my comments towards him are necessary or not. I have a very specific relationship with him as a player, and there are things being communicated in our back and forth that you aren't tuned in to. But even so, if you actually take the time to parse what I've said to him and accept it all at face value, you might, with a little meta research, be able to figure out the purpose behind a lot of what I've said to him so far. That post you quoted is

extremely

relevant, if you actually think about what it means.

Also, don't worry about offending me. The character of archaebob is a completely different entity from the person who writes these posts, and I'm not particularly sensitive to criticisms of him. And even if I was, I think I forfeit my right to complain about that kind of thing pretty soundly with some of the things

I

say to people.

@ Pine -

Alright buddy, I am very much looking forwards to your contributions today. I have a graduation ceremony tomorrow, so I'd like to get as much done in the next 12 hours as possible.

[archaebob]

V/LA for at least the next two days

I graduate tomorrow, and was surprised this afternoon by almost my entire extended family. It was super sweet of them, and I'm sure you can imagine why I'll find it difficult to spend significant amounts of time on this game for a few days or so.

I'm really sorry about this, especially in the context of all the shit talking I've done recently.

Still look forwards to reading Pine's incoming content, and with luck I'll be able to get a Heliman case out before deadline.

[archaebob]

You guys should not hammer Pine before deadline, just saying.

[archaebob]

Depending on time constraints, I have every intention of posting a Heliman case before deadline.

[archaebob]

I'll be back tomorrow. Sorry about all this. Shit is happening like crazy.

Might have to skip on the Heliman case for today cause it looks like there's no time to get him lynched. We'll just have to see if he's gutsy enough to leave me alive another day.

*cue Heliman making some stupid, glib comment about the fact that I'm postponing again

Between BA and Pine, I choose Pine, but I haven't read the last three pages. Will vote for scum tomorrow.

[archaebob]

Not buying either of these claims, really.

vote Pine

Less costly mislynch, both as a role and as a player.

[archaebob]

@ nintendo -

The phrasing of the whole post is way heavy handed. Read it. How redundant can you get? He repeats the same excuses over and over again, and I don't see any reason why town Barry Allen would feel the need to be making them at all.

In any case, I don't really support lynching a claimed tracker D1, especially not one who makes a point of posting fairly often.

Pine's case also isn't helped by the fact that roleblocker claims are very very very common from scum, and that

mafia

roleblockers are far more common than their town-aligned counterparts.

I'm actually going to put myself out there right now and predict that all three scum are between these five.

Barry Allen
Heliman
foilist13
Pine
Valern

Happy lynching.

[archaebob]

Everyone take a good hard look at this claim from nintendo.

Sensor!? What the

fuck

is a "sensor"? Oh I see, it can tell how many scum were on the wagon. Cool.

People, let's be real. There is no way in hell he pulled

that

claim out of his ass.

Barry Allen is scum. No doubt about this. I mean, seriously people, this set up is slightly unbalanced towards town even

without

that tracker claim being real.

vote Barry Allen

I bet my house that you're a scum tracker who has been playing to your fake claim since the game started. Your posts today have not helped you very much either.

Other scum:

Heliman
all these fucking replacements (YOU NEED TO POST MOAR)
Scumhunter

[archaebob]

@ hiplop -

Barry shouldn't reveal who he tracked, because it won't help us. He isn't lying about the fact that someone targeted me, it's just definitely

not

scum, because he's a scum tracker himself.

That's why he's confirmed scum. There's no way he's faking this result, and that means he can't possibly be town. We

do not

have a roleblocker, a tracker, a sensor, a doctor, AND a mason team. Get the hell out of here.

What is much more likely is that we have a roleblocker, a sensor, a doctor, and a mason team, and that scum has a tracker to counterbalance that. Even

that

is a little unbalanced towards town, as you can see. It's obvious that Barry tracked whoever tried to protect me, and revealed his result today in a townish seeming way in order to keep playing to his fakeclaim. If you think about it, there's really no scenario that makes sense in which he isn't a scum tracker. Even if you don't believe the sensor claim, there is

no way

that Barry Allen is a town tracker.

@ Barry Allen -

If you want to keep pretending to be town, you need to NOT reveal who tracked me today. I have no doubt you will find some excuse though.

@ everyone -

Barry Allen is obvscum and will be lynched today, but in the meantime we need to talk about who his buddies are. Next time I'm on I'm responding to Heliman's "case" on me so he can shut up about it.

Right now I'm looking hard at Scumhunter, especially with that last post.

It's quite possible there were 2 scum wagon on the Pine wagon and that nintendo is still scum.

It's also possible that scum-nintendo could make this claim if there are 0/1 scum on the wagon.

I'm not sure what to make of Barry's report

and I'm considering whether it might be best or not for him to out his report or not. There is no guarantee that the visiting person is a doctor. They could just as easily be a mafia rolecop or something else.

I'm leaning towards Barry out his reporting and the person who visited at least confirming it and likely claiming.

Archaebob, is there a reason you think I'm scum other than that I had been on V/LA? I still need to catch up and process all the stuff that is going on here.

Hiplop assuming that vig shot DH and that mafia's kill didn't go through is one hell of an assumption. I'm wondering if Barry tracked "doc/mafia killer".

I can see scum-hiplop saying something like that

at the beginning of the day to try and figure out DH died if his mafia partners didn't target him.

Anyways, priority #1 for me is to read into nintendo more to see if I should trust him.

Priority #2 is to try and decide if Barry should out his full report. My vote is 100% yes on that at this point.

1) You were way too stubborn and opinionated yesterday to be this nervous and weaksauce today. Just like, in general.

2) I don't buy your uber-evenhanded reaction to nintendo's claim. You give us a lot of plausible sounding hypotheticals and no opinions.

3) Nice foreshadowing of a future hiplop vote there. If you ever do decide later on that he's your best bet for a mislynch, you'll be SUPER PREPARED. You know why? Cause you already showed the town that you were starting to suspect him back in post 735!! *applause*

4) On Barry Allen outing his report: are you "leaning", or are you "100% yes"? Make up your mind. If you are "100% yes" on Barry Allen outing his report, there is no reason for you to qualify that with an "at this point." What does that even mean? Like, as opposed to future points? That would seem to defeat the purpose of being 100% yes. It's transparent to anyone who has played scum before what you are doing with this overcautious mixture of awkward assertiveness and shifty flip flopping.

confirm vote: Barry Allen

HoS Scumhunter

@ everyone -

DO NOT ASK BARRY ALLEN TO OUT HIS REPORT, IT WILL TELL US NOTHING. HE ISN'T A GOON FAKE CLAIMING TRACKER. JUST THINK ABOUT IT.

~Fixed

-pappums rat

[archaebob]

@ MOD

- can you delete the Scumhunter quote at the beginning of my last post? Thanks.

[archaebob]

Also, no matter what, we are NOT lynching nintendo today.

If his claim is true, then mafia HAS to kill him. He has the ability to confirm scum via process of elimination, and waiting for him to be mislynched is not a viable option for them. Every day he stays alive gives outrageous amounts of information to the town.

It's actually kind of a ridiculously powerful role...

Honestly, I might be feeling this claim a little less than I thought I did. There are some implications to this role that I hadn't considered.

In any case, the play is to leave him for now, and if he's alive tomorrow, we kill him.

@ Heliman -

You forget the confirmed roleblocker. Scum tracker makes perfect sense against a doctor AND a roleblocker.

@ Barry Allen -

I really don't like that you always begin your defenses by telling me how town you think I am. Your reasoning here doesn't make much sense anyways; doc could easily protect a scum by mistake. There is no evidence for my being town except what I've posted in thread, and it's weird for you to keep bringing that up.

I've made it perfectly clear why I don't believe you can be a town tracker. We already have a confirmed roleblocker, and if you are a town tracker, that means there is at least ANOTHER town PR in addition to that. With the mason team thrown in, I can't see this being balanced.

And that's excluding the sensor claim. Listen Barry, if you were actually a tracker, you wouldn't even for a

second

entertain the idea that nintendo could actually be a sensor, because of how ridiculously unbalanced that would make the town side in this game. How can you possibly be voting Heliman right now if you are really a tracker?

I'm not buying this at all.

[archaebob]

@ Hiplop -

Can you try something, just as an experiment for me, and think about what you are typing before you post it?

I've argued very clearly about why Barry Allen shouldn't out his report. But to spell it out a little more, there are essentially three possibilities here:

1) Barry Allen is a town tracker - In this event, he probably tracked the doctor or something along those lines. He should NOT reveal who he tracked.

2) Barry Allen is a goon who fakeclaimed tracker yesterday - If Barry Allen has no tracking powers, I can't imagine him giving a fake result like that. It would be an incredibly risky and stupid move without any apparent gain.

3) Barry Allen is a scum tracker - In this event, he probably tracked the doctor or something along those lines. He should NOT reveal who he tracked.

There is no situation in which Barry Allen's report helps town ascertain his alignment, and there are two in which he outs a PR for no reason.

What about this do you NOT understand?

[archaebob]

@ Bob - OK, I won't start this post the way I've started my other ones. You are an idiot. If you succeed in getting me lynched, you will have to realize that you are certainly an idiot. You cannot "imagine a scenario" where I'm actually what I say I am? That simply means you won't let anything get past your preconceived notion and your tendency to jump first and ask questions later never. Your posts, as I said earlier, are becoming anti-town in their impact - you aren't even noticing hiplop's attempts to make you seem scum because you are too busy trying to lynch the tracker.

Nowhere in this do you respond to my

arguments

. You know, those things that actually use logic to back up assertions?

Your AtE is worthless to me.

If you are a tracker, then

why aren't you voting for nintendoaddict

. Are you trying to tell me that we have a roleblocker, a tracker, a doctor, a sensor, AND a mason team? Give me a break.

You continue to reveal your alignment by not examining the implications of your own fakeclaim.

And you can call me an idiot all you want, but that doesn't bring you any closer to explaining why town has six PRs in this game.

Either you or nintendo are scum, period. You don't disagree with that statement, do you?

@ everyone -

I actually might support a mass claim, but I think we should do it tomorrow.

Can all of you tell me your experiences with sensors? How common are they in mini normals?

[archaebob]

@ hiplop -

Unless scum has daytalk, I don't see why the other scum players would know Barry's tracker result. Right now he's probably the only one with that information.

And STOP asking PRs to out themselves. There isn't a fucking vig, and if there was, he should be keeping his damn mouth shut.

[archaebob]

@ Hiplop -

That's fair. I guess scum probably does know the report, so it doesn't help us to keep it from the town.

@ everybody -

A mass claim might not be a bad idea about now. What do you think?

@ ace -

I'm missing your contribution about now. What's the deal?

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Lol. You got me. I'll admit that I don't actually think there's a doctor, but there's a simpler explanation for my stance than the one you are envisioning. Let's not get into this right now, ok? It really isn't going to help anything.

As far as your analysis of the massclaim, I guess it makes sense, I hadn't really thought of it that way. Frankly, I never know what to do about these theory-ish things, which is why I had no clue how to react to the mason claim. My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.

I really don't think that both BA and nintendo can be telling the truth though. Sensor, tracker, roleblocker, AND masons is outrageous. I really don't see what scum could have that would balance that.

In any case, this clearly isn't my forte, so I'm going to back off from all this crap right now and make that Heliman case.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Also, I can't see BA-goon fakeclaiming a result like that on D2 without any prompting. How does that help him exactly? It's an incredibly risky move with no immediate gain.

In any case, if he

is

a fakeclaiming goon, I'm not much interested in his "report" anyways. Hiplop made a good point though about how scum would probably already know who he tracked, so I'm not sure what to think about any of this anymore.

So basically, I'm down with whatever. Still think Barry Allen is scum.

[archaebob]

@ bob - you are saying I'm not using logic, when frankly your arguments related to me have no logic. OF COURSE I realize that nintendo could be fake claiming. But, we've lost one PR and outed my role as tracker - why would I take this chance D2? Your idea that there "is no scenario" where I could be a town tracker is on its face illogical. You can believe whatever you wish. If you wish to judge by writing style, however, let me comment on yours: You are acting like a loose cannon, jumping on whatever you can grab at the moment and moving from zero to warp speed with accusations. Then, you later back away and go after someone else with equal fervor. Then, you come back to someone you suspected before with that same over-zealous energy. At some point this is no longer helpful. At first you can gauge reactions, but after a while it just becomes tiresome noise.

I'm not ready to agree with Ace that you are scum, but your posts have moved into an area that is no longer pro-town.

Nowhere in this did you respond to my arguments, and the italicized is a textbook scum (I use that phrase too much) way of giving your opinion of my play. You are trying to deflect attention on to me, but you're going to make sure to do it

very

gradually, over the course of the next five posts, so that you look like a townie who is changing his mind over time.

There is nothing remotely anti-town about my posts. You are treating it as a given that you are town, and then piling a lot of AtE on top of itself to try and dissuade me. It won't work. I have made a specific argument about why I think you are lying, and frankly, your posts have bothered me for the entire game. The last few pages have been a charade of you hitting me over the head with as much fabricated outrage as you can, because you think it looks like a townish reaction. It doesn't. Give up.

I mean seriously, Hiplop is so town it's not even funny. His play hasn't been very good, but there's no way in hell it's coming from scum, and you know it. You're picking him now for the same reason you picked him yesterday: it's easy, and it's defensible.

You are scum, Barry. You are also panicking, which I can understand. But there is nothing you can do to win this game. Even if you manage to deflect the lynch onto someone else today, you will be dead long before this game reaches lylo. Do you think I'm wrong about that? Think again.

By all means though, please continue pretending to be town. I look forwards to how much fake anger you can pack into your next post while dodging my arguments again.

On the other hand, if you want to switch gears now and take a more conciliatory approach to being full of shit, I would love to hear your opinion of the following players:

Scumhunter
Valern
foilist13
ace
Heliman

Write a full paragraph on each, if you can. If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this, as your reads will be very useful after you become confirmed.

Your response to this is also your very last chance to persuade me that I'm wrong. Be completely honest, and do NOT try to filter your gut inclinations. Scum has no gut inclinations to filter, which is why your mind is already racing about how to respond to this.

[archaebob]

My vote is on hiplop, who has literally hopped back and forth throughout this round, particularly today. I don't trust him, and I do believe he is scum. If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for now my vote stays.

I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?

"If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for

now

my vote stays."

Only scum feels a need to cover their asses that thoroughly. His hiplop vote is fake, he knows it, and he's building a reinforced, geometrically constructed suit of armor around everything he does to satisfy his own insecurities about it.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

Before I post my rebuttal to all your nonsense from yesterday, I have to know: at this moment, do you still think I'm scum?

If not, give me your top three.

[archaebob]

Alrighty, NOW it get's interesting.

Post 730

– Bob doubts the possibility that nintendo’s claim could be real. Then states flatly that Barry is scum, stating that the set up is unbalanced towards town even without the tracker claim being real. Bob states, “I bet my house that you’re a scum tracker.”

Let me restate what I have already said on this topic: I don’t know if nintendo’s claim is real or not, but I don’t like the idea of lynching a claimed role on D2 after we lynched a real role on D1 and lost another role N1. We do have time to come back to Nintendo if we wish at any time. As for the claim that I’m a scum tracker – that’s a claim you are pulling out of thin air with nothing other than your opinion to back it up.

Actually, at this point, I was expressing my belief that nintendo's claim is probably real. But meh.

Post 740

– You tell hiplop that Barry should not reveal who he (I) tracked. You state flatly that I’m not lying about the fact that someone targeted Bob, but that whoever targeted you is not scum because Barry is a “scum tracker”. You go on to state that there is no way I faked the result and that it proves I cannot be town, because of the number of roles we have in the setup. You note that it is obvious someone tried to protect you and that there is “no way that Barry Allen is a town tracker”. You tell me not to reveal who tracked you if I “want to keep pretending to be town.”

Let’s talk about contradictions here. You don’t believe I’m telling the truth about what I am, but you are CERTAIN you were visited because I said you were? You told hiplop that I should NOT reveal who I tracked, then you try to bait me into revealing who I tracked in the SAME POST? Frankly, the contradictions here are amazing.

Your characterization of this entire post is inaccurate.

1) I think you are lying about being town, but not about being tracker, and I think I've made that pretty clear. I can't imagine that you would fake that result as a goon. Therefore, I believe that I was targeted by someone, despite not believing your claim.

2) I didn't bait you into revealing anything. In fact, that whole part was trying to cut out your excuses ahead of time as an inb4youpretendtochangeyourmind.

Post 756

– You start with saying we are NOT lynching Nintendo today “no matter what”. You state your belief that “every day he stays alive gives outrageous amounts of information to the town.” You then state that you don’t like my stating you are town at the start of my posts. You state again your reason for not believing I could be a town tracker – that you believe the round would be unbalanced if I were a town tracker given the number of roles believed to be in the round so far on behalf of the town. You state that I should not buy “for a second” nintendo’s claim if I’m really town and wonder why I’m voting Heliman instead of of Nintendo (as I was doing at that time).

Again, I don’t know that I buy the claim from nintendo – I just don’t think D2 is the day to take that chance. You started this post basically saying that very same thing, then turn around and say that I must be scum if I believe the same thing that you do.

1) Do you disagree with my "opinion" about sensors, and how powerful they are?

2) Stop beating around the bush and answer this point blank: do you think it is

possible

that town has a roleblocker, a tracker, some other PR, a sensor, AND a mason team? By not voting for nintendo, you are saying that this is a possibility. I'm saying it isn't.

3) There's no contradiction. If you are town, you

know

you are town. You are not in a position to agree with my reasons for rejecting a nintendo lynch, because my reasons include the possibility of you being scum.

Post 758

– You reply to hiplop with the reasons Barry should not out the report, giving three potential scenarios. The first scenario is that I am the town tracker….

WAIT, I thought there was “no scenario” where I COULD be a town tracker? Guess there really is, even if you won’t accept it.

The post in question.

Your response to this is superficial and willfully blind to the main point. I was showing the logic of why you should not out your report period, regardless of your actual role. For the purposes of this demonstration, I had no reason not to include the unlikely scenario of you being a town tracker. This was a separate, self-contained argument that had nothing to do with my opinion of you.

I'm not sure why you responded to this post, as it didn't contain any attacks on you. I assume you included it for that "contradiction" theme you're trying to get going here?

Post 767

– You state that I’m not responding to your arguments and that I’m not using logic to back up my assertions. You ask that if I am a tracker, why am I not voting for Nintendo. Again, you bring up the number of roles.

Once again, I don’t know that I believe nintendoaddict’s claim, for the very reason you state. I just don’t believe D2 is the day to test that claim. Bob, you have repeatedly made that same argument, that we should not lynch Nintendo today. It does not make sense for you to repeatedly argue against lynching a player and then to turn around and vote for me because I agree we should not lynch Nintendo today.

I've already addressed why this is a false contradiction. It doesn't make sense that you wouldn't vote nintendo if you

knew for a fact that you were town.

Am I to believe that you aren't thorough enough a reader to understand this? That would certainly fly in the face of my overall impression of you.

Also, you are trying to act like I kept bringing up the same point over and over again for no reason.

You never responded to it.

The pathos

you

keep repeating about how bad it would be to mislynch

another

PR today isn't a response.

Post 770

– you call out hiplop for continuing to ask PRs to out themselves.

I’ve seen hiplop’s actions as scummy, and you are calling him out here for what could reasonably be called anti-town behavior, yet my vote means that I’m scum? Again, you are not making sense.

Anti-town=/=scum

Hiplop is obvtown.

And in any case, I don't

believe

your vote, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not hiplop has acted scummy.

Post 774

– You state, “That's fair. I guess scum probably does know the report, so it doesn't help us to keep it from the town. @ everybody - A mass claim might not be a bad idea about now. What do you think?”

I think it is still a VERY bad idea, Bob, and I’m surprised you didn’t at this point.

Why are you talking about this post? I thought this wall was about responding to

my

arguments against

you

.

Post 778

– You’ve changed your mind about massclaims after ace votes for you, basically kissing up to ace and agreeing with him about, well, everything. You also state, “My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.” You then state that you don’t believe both Barry and Nintendo can be truthful, and then go back to work on your Heliman case.

You know, I knew you were going all over the place in some of your posts, but when I came back to analyze just the posts after you voted me I was amazed at how much you’ve contradicted yourself.

You're doing it

again

.

If I look scummy to you, grow a pair and call me scummy. This is just reinforcing my earlier point about you foreshadowing future votes without doing anything.

You've spent a lot of time making sure everyone knows how town you think I am. Well, do you, or don't you? I'm even less interested in your BS than I was in Heliman's.

This wall was supposed to be your response to my arguments. Instead, you have spent half your time quoting unrelated posts and trying to subliminally paint me as scum. Why would you be doing this as town?

Post 788

– You once again claim I haven’t responded to your arguments and state that I’m trying to gradually move to a vote on you. You say that I’m treating it as a given that I’m town and am using AtE on you. You also claim I am using “fabricated outrage” on you. You also flatly defend hiplop as town. You add some pejorative content directed at me, then ask my opinion on some specific players with an AtE, stating that “If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this.” You end with one last AtE claiming that “your mind is already racing about how to respond to this”.

OK, Bob, now you’re getting paranoid. If I wanted to vote you I would already have done so. You turned around 180 degrees on massclaiming when Ace voted you, and then you start acting paranoid because I called you out for not helping the town with your loose cannon approach. That’s your problem, not mine. As for your question at the end of your post, I’ve already stated that I think 2/3 scum can be found in: Giitah, Scumhunter and Heliman. Frankly, that’s more than the idea of 2 scum being claimed by Nintendo as being on the Pine vote. I’ve had bad vibes on each during D1 and haven’t seen much since to take my worries off them. Ace appears town to me, Foil leans town, and I don’t have a read on Valern (although Valern did lead that D1 wagon on me).
Let’s be real here – I’m not outraged, just highly irritated at your posting style. I’m amazed that you consider yourself logical, given that you really only have one argument (OK, two). Your arguments are one, that you don’t believe a balanced round would have so many PRs, and two “Barry is a poopy face”. Witness your next post:

I wasn't calling you a poopy face, and nothing in that post was "pejorative". Assertive, cocky, uninterested in being polite, yes. But I didn't insult you.

You can try and characterize my arguments as mindless yelling all you want, but at the moment they are all still standing.

Post 789

– “I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?”

Again, pejorative posting, without logic, just an AtE.

On the contrary, I DID make an argument.

Maybe you should take a second look.

TLDR: Barry Allen has mischaracterized my exchanges with him throughout this entire wall, and continued to ignore the real arguments against him. In the meantime, he's found plenty of opportunities to insert random posts of mine that have nothing to do with his defense of himself and try and paint them as scummy contradictions. It is unclear right now whether he thinks I'm town or not.

Do you guys think this was a townish defense? I definitely don't.

[archaebob]

@ Hiplop -

Just read my iso next to Barry Allen's wall.

1) Does your interpretation of my posts line up with his?
2) Do his interpretations make sense coming from someone who seemed pretty fucking convinced that I was town not too long ago?
3) Would town-BA be quoting all this random stuff from my iso that has nothing to do with my arguments against him?

If you answer no to all of these, then leave your vote where it is. I don't give a shit if you want to wagon me later, but right now the pressure needs to stick.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Why are you still voting me.

Something is not right here.

[archaebob]

fuck I can't WAIT to hear this one...

xvart, I can't prevent you from pursuing this ill-advised course of action, but if you do so, it is imperative that you post other reads as well. I don't know a damn thing about your player slot right now.

[archaebob]

unvote vote ace

Something is

very

wrong here.

[archaebob]

@ xvart -

Down, boy. This isn't worth your time, and it definitely isn't worth mine.

@ nintendoaddict -

You haven't been posting recently. Why?

Also, I assume by your request for protection that you think there is a doctor in this game. Is there some reason you think this?

@ ace -

Why were you trying to out me earlier today, why are you still voting me, and who between Barry Allen and nintendoaddict should we lynch?

[archaebob]

@ xvart -

I said DOWN. I have no idea what you are talking about, and am not interested enough to go looking. You think I'm scum, ok whatever, have a biscuit. What do you think of barry allen and nintendoaddict?

[archaebob]

Alright people forget everything I've said today so far, I've been way off.

confirm vote ace

HoS: Foilist

In my Neighborhood QT with foililst, he told me that he, DH, and ace were all

masons

.

More importantly, he said the other masons were

told

I was going to be neighborized last night.

Sorry to break it to you ace, but you've been outed by someone else's blunder.

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

Foilist is

not

confirmed town to me. I've asked the mod.

I had a scumread on Ace and on foilist going into Night 1, but immediately ruled out both of them when I was sent the Neighborhood QT. Foilist told me that ace was the "other mason," and that made a lot of sense to me. My scum read on them was based on their inexplicable support for DemonHybrid yesterday, and their duel tunneling on nintendo for a case that I didn't really buy from either of them. I kept mostly quiet about it because my policy is usually to keep quiet about smart scum, avoid the NK, and then nail them later on when there are less players. However, the support for DH made perfect sense if they were all masons together, as did the coordinated efforts against nintendo, and at the time I assumed incorrectly that foilist was confirmed.

In our QT, foilist told me that ace knows I've been neighborized. Obviously, he didn't also tell him that I was going to be told that. This leaves us with three possibilities:

1) Foilist is really what he has claimed to be, which is a Mason-Friendly Neighbor, and Ace is a town-aligned mason:

Ace has tried very hard today to get me outed, and his entire argument about why I'm looking more like scum to him makes no sense if he's town who knew beforehand that I was going to be neighborized by foilist.

2) Foilist is actually what he claims he is, and Ace is a traitor:

This is what foilist is now pretending, as evidenced by his ace vote, and a recent post he made in the QT.

But this doesn't make any sense either. Why on earth would Ace be playing this way if he was partnered with someone he knew was town? Foil

told

him that I was neighborized. Ace knows this. By going after me like this today, he is confirming himself as scum. Why?

3) They are both scum.

This makes *perfect* sense. Foilist is a scum neighborizer, who targeted me and pretended that ace, who is actually his scumbuddy, was a mason. He told ace that I was going to be neighborized, but neglected to warn him about the full scope of his gambit. Ace didn't know foilist was going to tell me all this, and scum evidently don't have daytalk, and so ace unwittingly picked a strategy that contradicted foilist's ploy.

This is the only scenario that makes sense. Foilist wouldn't have picked a random townie and declared them to be a mason, because that's a confirmable lie that would have come out at the first massclaim, and foilist's whole ploy was obviously to have me believe that two of the scum were masons.

They are

both

scum. And it was a stupid gambit to begin with. When has there ever been a three man mason team with one of

them

also being a friendly neighbor?

Get out of here.

Now I need to decide if their nintendoaddict case yesterday was a bus/distance, or a mislynch attempt. I'm forced to admit that Barry Allen's wall post earlier actually looked fairly town to me, despite being a poor defense, and that I may have been wrong about everything today. Especially with two confirmed scum on his wagon, he's likely our tracker.

@ Heliman -

I don't think you are scum anymore, and lost motivation to respond to you when I tried to make my case and realized that you probably were town. Your arguments against me are stupid as shit though, just go look at them. If you are really going to insist, I'll still respond to your "case", but I don't have a scumread on you at this point and would prefer not to waste my time. I can't imagine why you think I would be doing

any

of this as scum.

[archaebob]

@ the REAL mason(s) -

Foilist has explicitly claimed to be a mason partnered with DemonHybrid, so if things start to go south, all you have to do get ace and foilist lynched is come forward with your claim, and hopefully your breadcrumb.

Don't do it just yet though. I'm confident we can get these two scumbags lynched without you outing yourself, which is vastly preferable.

[archaebob]

@ Ace - Why did he claim then? He had no reason to claim like that, except as a desperate measure to redirect you from your mistaken path.

Also, Foilist obviously forgot that DH had talked about having just one "partner", or he wouldn't have tried to pull this stunt at all. So that doesn't exonerate you.

but

unvote

[archaebob]

@ the real mason -

DO NOT counter claim.

Foil is already going down.

Don't out yourself. We still need you for later in the game.

vote foilist

[archaebob]

And Foilist is lying about the QT.

mod

-

Am I allowed to quote the QT in thread?

[archaebob]

@ Barry Allen -

That's the gist of it, yeah.

I still think ace is scum though. Foilist has even less reason to bring some random townie into it than he does his buddy. If he thought beforehand that his plan would fail, he wouldn't have done it to begin with. If he

didn't

think it would fail, then there's no reason he would make it a confirmed failure by including some random vanilla town that could flip at any moment, and who wouldn't claim mason with him when the massclaim happened. Whatever he did, it's a bad idea, but it seems more likely that he was relying on me to assume both he and ace were confirmed. I mean, what's the alternative?

"Let me do this random gambit that is SURE TO FAIL. Since I already know it's sure to fail, I will randomly pretend that ace is also a mason, which makes it exponentially MORE likely to fail, but gives me some chance that ace will GO DOWN WITH ME"

I don't buy it.

Ok people, I'm calling the scumteam:

foilist
ace
Barry Allen or nintendoaddict

I don't buy that both those claims can be real. Roleblocker AND sensor AND tracker is too much. I have no clue about which one though.

[archaebob]

Ace tomorrow if he kills me.

[archaebob]

And ace is online right now.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Yeah maybe. I guess it's a little null.

Who do you think is scum?

[archaebob]

Go die. ALL of you.

[archaebob]

jk.

seriously though.

this was the most painful game I've ever watched play out after my death.

congrats ace.

I hope you all have learned a lesson: NEVER wifom a possibility out of existence because it seems like scum "probably wouldn't do that". You are GIVING them a reason to do it with that very logic.

[archaebob]

Thoughts on the game? I especially want to hear from scum.

[archaebob]

screw ALL of you

[archaebob]