Mini 1190: Game over

[PJ.]

Vote:PBuG

Welcome back!

[PJ.]

Umm, Did anyone see Sleepy's Miller Mason Recruiter claim? I think the scum are gambiting us here. EK claims miller straight away then Sleepy calim's he's not only a miller but a Mason Recruiter as well? I'd be willing to bet there are not two millers in the game. Or two masons.

Vote:EmpKing

Toro is acting scummy but I really don't think he is part of the scum team.

[PJ.]

And what about me do you like?
CC, the reason the game is going is because Emp claimed Miller.
PEDIT: Of course scum can claim Miller.
BTW, I'm a Miller Mason Recruiter.

@Hoppster, This post doesn't sound like a joke to me but I'm really bad at that. And honestly, no reason as to why empking over sleepy. I think they're both scum.

And yes I still feel Empking is gambiting scum.

[PJ.]

I still don't necessarly see how that's a joke but I see that it is indeed ridiculous, just not really generally a fan of joke claims.

regardless I think Empking is lying about his miller claim.

[PJ.]

Unvote,Vote:Toro

I'm with Emp saying that it was a Godfather claim. A townie would never have the cop waste an investigation on an innocent.

Also, on the whole "famous player/why would cop investigate Empking" thing. The guy is a Battle Mage level poster. He has like 13000 post or something? Used to be known for being a Village Idiot but due to sheer perserverence and playing in as shit load of game(I've been here fair longer and he's played in probably quadruple the number of games I have) he has become a decent player and kind of a staple. Also(this is an old meta) because of his (old)playstyle which consisted of idiotic posts and trolling, he was damn near unreadable(Killa 7 style) so you'd have to either a) policy lynch him or b) investigate him. This is partly why I think the claim is bullshit because he has a good reason to think he'll be investigated therefore if he claims miller, then there is no point.

At this point, I think he is bussing Toro. Elfen is probably newb town(I seriously have no idea what the kid post half the time) and I think lining up lynchs is just a mistake(and again I can't really understand what he is writing 80% of the time so he's not really leading me anywhere lol).

[PJ.]

@ Pan. Ahem.. Total posts:9131 (0.69% of all posts / 8.02 posts per day) thats Emp's ._.

-.- and how do you not know what I'm trying to say in most of my post... D: I can perfectly understand them

Your post 133 is ridiculous convuluted without the grammatical errors and missing words

You do realize if you add everyone's post in this entire game aside from Animorpherv you get about 9585, right? And that's not accounting for the fact the Empking has an alt with 478 post(Empking's Alt). So Empking actually has 9614 posts, at least, which is more then every player in the game combined(beside Ani who has around 5000 post and is a prolific poster in his own right) So yeah, to say Empking is known is almost an understatement.

.... It seems like he is wanting to get lynched... Jester much? Meh... just a thought

This is why I hate the fact that he claimed Miller so much right now.

It's starting to read as very anti-town that he claimed it in the first place. This entire day, we've been focused on his claim and the resulting arguments.

I'm much more concerned with the reason he claimed, which is because he knew there is a good chance he could get investigated based on who he is.

[PJ.]

Because if I'm wrong and only one of you is scum, I think you're the safer bet at this point. If I'm right you're the godfather and he is a goon. Godfather is clearly the better lynch.

[PJ.]

Panzer should be unlyncvhable just because he's not part of the atmosphere of lurking and not voting that will screw us over.

And you're voting for Toro why then?

Panzer has 7 posts, only 3 players have less posts and 1 (Jakesh) is tied. And Panzer is one of these that has provided content I deem suspicious rather than just being checked out and null.

Okay I'm in the bottom half of posters, but with every post I have added content(suspicious in your eyes or not) and I find it kinda pot-kettle that a guy with only two more post than me and went 7 pages without posting is accusing me of lurking. A Wedding is not an excuse,some of us work 40 hours a week, do school, and have lives outside of mafia, also I'm not exactly Battle Mage here, I only post when I feel it is necessary and I have something worth saying. This reeks of derailing the bus on Toro and just makes my position on Toro all the more firm and Empking is becoming more and more town.

Also, you're really putting a vote on me for lurking when(not even including you) Jakesh is in the game, has made 1 more post than me and oceans less of content, a player with 1 post and a player with 2 posts. From a derailing persepctive the super lurkers could be too easy and Jakesh could be his scumbuddy especially with that cursorymention and then vote of a much more pro-town player.

Lets go to your ISO on me:

vote: Panzerjager

ISO #1: accuses Empking (misses obv-joke)
ISO #2: reiterates point
ISO #3: reiterates point AGAIN
ISO #4: continues to accuse Empking of lying, but also jumps on his Toro suspicions. If both of these players are town, this is a good move for PJ.
ISO #5 & 6: whatever whatever blah blah blah, Empking/Toro reiterations here too

Nothing wrong with 1.
2&3: This aren't reiterations. These are answers to questions. It's protown to answer questions and clarify things. I had nothing else relevent to posts, so I posted what i needed to
4: Or I'm a pro-town player scumhunting adding more theories than those that are already stated
5: yes because cbringing up more points and correcting someone on their facts is a bad thing.
6: Answering another question in a satisfactory way.

Man this Panzer makes relevant posts and adds content to the game, I think he's scum

@Empking: Oh and re: justified votes, all

current votes seem fine to me except Jakesh (worst vote ever)

and Animorph. Doesn't mean they're all laid by innocents but they're thought through

I'd like to see more votes laid down so we can have an actual bandwagon instead of low-stakes, back-and-forth carping

So you admit Jakesh's vote is horrible, yet aren't voting him, why? This seems like cursory mentions of a scum buddy to be able to jump on him whenever and be able to point and say "I found him scummy see", but I still want you to explain yourself.

Also what are your views on Captain Corporal?

[PJ.]

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

This is scummy, please refrain from doing this. There are more than 2 people that we can lynch.

[PJ.]

Not a big fan of Sundy's view on CC. I feel its too easy to have a burst of activity then taper of when the stakes get higher, but we'll see as he catchs up.

@Pbug, I'm thinking I am wrong about both being scum. I have a strong feeling Toro is scum. I'm keeping my vote there for now due to past actions. With Sundy chiming in I feel a lot better about empking.

[PJ.]

I'd rather you just replace 1joe60.

Also, REALLY liking xvart right now.

Toro is becoming more and more obviously scum at this point. Really happy with my vote.

[PJ.]

Ok, L-1 guys be careful, is there intent to hammer from anyone?

[PJ.]

Lol sarnath'd by Hoppster, Claim toro

[PJ.]

Oh wow didn't realize I had been on the page for 40 minutes without refreshing, nevermind.

[PJ.]

And since I'm on a 3 post streak I'll keep it going and quote myself.

I'm much more concerned with the reason he claimed, which is because he knew there is a good chance he could get investigated based on who he is.

The act of claiming miller is on null-leaning town. The reason as to why he did it is the concerning part. Toro's logic of "he could be lying" is shitty(as hoppster said) because anyone could be lying. The reason why he claimed was scummy.

[PJ.]

Dude, claim flat out or someone just hammer him. If he left breadcrumbs that's for him to point out after he claims or gets counter-claimed.

[PJ.]

I'm okay with it if he doesn't claim in the next couple hours

[PJ.]

I'm not looking, claim full or be hammered

[PJ.]

Okay, you're a vig, I don't buy breadcrumbs done over 100 posts into the game cause they seem just thrown together, alsoVig is a SUPER common fake claim.

Not buying it.

Hammer away.

[PJ.]

D

on't

B

uy

I

t.

Unvote

I'm rash, Empking is right, Vig yourself tonight.

[PJ.]

Not really digging Emp's Elfen vote though.

And still would rather him Vig himself. Betting he's SK.

[PJ.]

Elfen, are you gonna be definitive and vote or are you just gonna cheer wagons on? Reeks of wanting to stay off lynchs and avoid suspicion.

Scummier by the minute.

[PJ.]

Went and Iso'd Elfen, wow. one vote, that I don't think even counted and it was a random.org vote.

[PJ.]

Is this really happening right now? Elfen, you need to go back and play newbie games.

[PJ.]

Whats there to lose when I have nothing to lose

umm, I feel this makes what he did modkillable and passably bannable by mith

This is pretty much a big "fuck you" to the mod and game

[PJ.]

Possibly not passably

[PJ.]

This SK thing is silly. If we have one, it's Toro(most likely)

I say we do two things, and please I want everyones opinions on this

Let's have a vote on whether he should shoot himself or not. If he isn't gonna shoot himself, Let's have a vote on who Toro should shoot.

I'll keep the vote count on the Vig shoot vote, unless TS wants to super awesome mod and keep two counts.

I personally want Toro to himself so

Yes on Self-Vig

As far as the real lynch goes, I think we need to all get off Toro. Cause We have him in our pocket at this point. We'll just lynch him at our leisure.

Elfen is a Village Idiot

Jakesh, has done nothing but lurk and throw some scummy votes down.

Vote:Jakesh

[PJ.]

Self-Vig Vote count

Yes(1): Panzer
No(1): Empking
Abstain(10):Everyone else beside Toro cause he doesn't get a say

[PJ.]

I'm gonna go ahead and call that a wash for the No-Self Vig crew

Vig:Elfen

I know it's a village idiot spot, but that's essentially what vigs are for. Hitting guys that could be scum but we don't have any real evidence towards because they are idiots.

[PJ.]

I have a firm belief on replacements that can't change what their predecessor did, and unless they are a lurker replacement they should be lynched off. Generally players that are playing a good town game don't replace out.

[PJ.]

Whoa,

unvote,Vote:xvart

didn't even notice all that

I wanna see Toro vig Jakesh tonight.

[PJ.]

Its not the case that lurkers can be replaced. Flakes can be replaced but not lurkers.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

But whae if scum has a roleblocker?

Alright let them waste a night blocking a vig, instead of blocking one of our more important power roles.

Did I miss something? What did you notice Panzer?

Everything in Hoppster's post

Okay, you're a vig, I don't buy breadcrumbs done over 100 posts into the game cause they seem just thrown together,

alsoVig is a SUPER common fake claim.

It is? Since when? It's a super risky thing to claim and very hard to reproduce long term, unless he is a SK. But, Toro, say there is a RBer and you get blocked tonight while trying to use your vig kill. Do you get it the next night or is it wasted?

Most SKs use it, Mafia Goon sometimes use it, well any Mafia really. It's really not that hard to fake. I'll be happy to discuss it after the game because it's currently relevant to Scum/Sk's interest.

[PJ.]

@Sleepy I don't think so

Welcome Torquez

[PJ.]

I like your scumhunting method, Vollkan.

Thanks A

lot

of people complain about it, so it's always nice to know that some people actually like it.

*This Guy*

Really dislike it.

[PJ.]

Given the re-explanation I'm not so sure. Just Hopps response seem really good, and I figured you were scum pushing his lynch

Unvote

for now.

I don't get how you are pairing me and hoppster but that's fine.

[PJ.]

Scumspects is a stupid word

Suspects:
Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.
One of Xvart or Hoppster: The way they've interacted, I'd be willing to say one of them are certainly scum, not tame enough for distancing. Right now I leaning toward Hoppster being scummier because he has been kinda flimsy, and Xvart has been much more assertative like he has nothing to hide.
Jakesh: I've talked about this fairly recently.
Captain Corporal: I really hate that while being a very frequent poster in the beginning he didn't take a stand on the Miller claim issue. And not only did he not take a stand he kinda congratulated him on being clever like he knew Emp was lying. I don't like how the game started to heat up and his posting died off entirely. He hasn't added any content in 6 pages. And really hasn't been scumhunting at all.
Vollkan: I hate his scumhunting style and I feel it's competely arbitrary but that probably doesn't make him scum in every game, so ignore this.

As far as not voting, I wasn't sure which side of the Xvart/Hoppster arguement I wanted to take and I wasn't sure where my thoughts were, but i've seemed to have collected them now with this post. so

Vote:Captain Corporal

[PJ.]

Also, Why aren't you voting hoppster?

[PJ.]

@Hiplop: One game is not a meta.

@xvart: I didn't notice that most your case is based on things that hoppster has already covered(wall of relevent post), but you do make legitimate points(he's flimsy and seems to be content trying to work from a distance). They way you guys have been going at each other does seem like one is scum. I feel CC has much more damning stuff against him then either of you do.

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

and Volkan is scummy because he uses a different scumhunting approach? how does this work either?

No, it seemed more that he claimed because he is prolific than because it was the right thing to do. He even pretty much stated so later. Something very close to "I figured I would get an investigation and I didn't want it to lead to a mislynch". That reads as scummy to me.

Also, I do find his approach scummy but I already admitted that it doesn't make him scum in every game.

@Vollkan:

Vollkan: I hate his scumhunting style and I feel it's competely arbitrary but that probably doesn't make him scum in every game, so ignore this.

Panzer, maybe I can change your mind on this:

1)

Plenty of players will post lists of every other player, classifying them as "really scummy", "slightly scummy", "neutral", "leaning town", etc (or by just listing players in order of suspicion) My system is not fundamentally different from that style of ranking. The list that I post is essentially the same, except that the rankings are represented by numerical points.

2)

The only way my system differs is that my reasons for suspecting people are always explicitly stated and easy to find, because they are signified by the addition of points. In other words, most people might say "This action is really scummy", which then will result in a player getting a scummier ranking, though it will always be unclear exactly how strong that particular scumtell was; my system just lets me clearly link each individual scumtell to changes in a person's ranking.

3)

Also, the point values themselves are also not particularly arbitrary. In order for my system to have any credibility (and for me not to get picked to shreds when I use it), I have to ensure that the point values remain reasonably consistent. Thus, I will almost always give 5 points for ordinary scumtells, 7 points for moderately serious scumtells and 10 points for very serious scumtells. I don't pretend that this is an exact science, and I'll readily admit that I do manipulate the points in my scum games, but, on the whole, it's certainly no less arbitrary than when most people say "this action is scummy", without specifying any degree of magnitude for that scumtell.

1) Having a constant list of you think is scummy is bad. I try to avoid using these list all together because it give town too much information. If you and 2/3 other players are constantly stating who the most town players are, they have a good consensus of who they should kill. And it helps them know exactly where they are on the radar, which is another very dangerous thing
2)So are most good players's reasons. Sometimes I commit this crime because I'm lazy, but everyone for the most part should do this.
3) This is where I hate it. The points are easily manipulatable because the degrees are subjective. Also, two people commiting the same scumtell could be two varying degrees of bad or even one could be a scumtell and one couldn't. Essentially with the point skeem/scoreboard, you can manipulate far easier. Also I feel it makes you detached from your vote. "I'm just voting the scummiest person, look at the scoreboard). It's an arbitrary easily manipulatable system based on rating things that are purely subjective.

Feel free to respond, but we should take this to a pm reletively soon. Just wanted to throw this up there so people don't thinking I'm shouting things I don't have reasons for.

ISO of CC when my girlfriend isn't here/awake.

[PJ.]

A) all my games are over a year old
B) Which games in particular

[PJ.]

CC

0:Random vote
1:Random questions- meh nothing good really but trying to start conversation
2: irrelevant
3: Major scum tell here, just says, Nice claim to Emp and doesn't take a stand one way or another. Just congratulates him really.
4: Contentless drivel about millers. Still no stand.
5&6:Contentless drivel, more about hating millers and not having played with them.
7: Forced to take a said by Hoppster and essentially takes no real side, just says it's null, not whether he buys it or not.
8&9: Contentless drivel
10: Just agreeing with people not really adding anything
11: back on to defending his questions
12:more talk about the stupid questions but not anything thast came of them.
13: "I like that you were scumhunting" Well CC, when are you gonna start scumhunting?
14:"I agree with this and I see the case on Toro, gonna read more" Still no original content.
15: defending himself
16: Toro is his only suspect and he isn't voting him. Why?
17: Essentially he just says, "I don't know how a feel about toro and emp" and takes a long paragraph to say it. Firmly placing himself on the fence
18: contentless
19 Said he's reading some ISO's and never really gives reads on those iso's then gives some town reads(no scum reads in site) Some basic mafia logic that should be obvious to everyone with a pulse. More defense of the questions
20: Says he wants to hammer, but he's not sure, some talk of elfen being replaced.
21-24: Absolutely zero content and almost nothing relevant to the game
25: Promises reads in his next post, Says he isn't a frequent poster(I think he has more posts than I do and it's in direct contrast to his early game). Also agrees with my case on him(which I haven't completely built yet).

He has more posts than Hopster, All the lurkers/replacements (Joe/vollkann,Ani/xvart,Jakesh) Sundy(who ironically has been lurking recently when his case on me was lurking, i currently have twice as many post as him), Thomith. That equates to about half the game and he says he isn't frequently posting when really what is happening is some active lurking, along with avoiding putting any content at all unless he is severly pressed. I like where my vote is at.

[PJ.]

A) i know, i had to search all your posts,
b) one was a mini-normal, not sure on the name/number, but it was near the end of your search history.

You can't meta someone from 2 years ago, people change

You can't meta someone from 2 games, Sample size.

You can't meta someone from a game that they made 10 posts in, sample size.

Meta in general is garbage.

FoS:Hiplop

[PJ.]

Panzer - Panzers play doesn’t follow suit with his scum-meta, leaning town and 103 is a great post. Actually, now that this has been shown to be a joke, it does follow suit with his scum meta, he tries to make small things look. Panzer flailing when confronted about the joke, doesn’t get obvious joke, continues to tell about how hes a serious guy –no fun, probably town though.
196 is a good post, rekindled my thought on toro.
249 is great, too. Panzer isn’t the most active player but he does add lots to discussion
Disagree about the bus, no chance are they both scum.
Hurt my feelings in 386 
Recent posts have been scummy, caring about his look too much it seems.


Sleepykrew – DOES NOT MATCH TOWN META, posting way too much for his usual play, claimed miller mason recruiter? So bad. Nevermind, it’s a joke. Still posting too much, may have just improved, but still doesn’t seem right to me.
Recent posts have been pretty bad, almost like hes trying to look useful. Null for now I guess, but have an eerie feeling that hes scum.

He's is drawing conclusions mainly from garbage meta, and I happen to know that Hiplop, myself, and Sleepy were all in a game together that just ended and have the sneaking suspicion that because his "meta" is solely based of that game, seeing as he doesn't have meta's on anyone else and normally Meta players will meta read everyone. I find drawing suspicions from irrelevent things scum because he trying to push the lynch of a townie based on fallacious statements and generally stir the pot.

[PJ.]

Sample size matters. For mafia games, I would say something like at least 10 games of each town and scum to be an acceptable sample size, I would say this is still bad because most player make progress and leaern from there mistakes. By scientific standards, 20 instances would be a joke. Sample size are normally in multiple of 100 but that's just silly when it comes to mafia.

In this case, you telling me how I play as scum based on one game is like telling me I eat pizza everyday because I ate pizza last night. It's ridiculous and not a valid way of hunting scum. Trying to push a case this way is scummy because you are trying to draw attention on players based on misinformation and lead to mislynch. The more I keep talking about this, the more scummy it's making me think of you.

[PJ.]

I keep thinking about this and I just can't shake that this is scum motivated.

Unvote, Vote:Hiplop

Case on CC still stands.

[PJ.]

I know nobody liked the idea of a Panzerjager wagon last time, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP

: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

1) Empking suggested the self-vig first. I went with it. That sorts out those fake vig claims really quick, especially from a player as scummy as Toro.
2) I don't like replacements in general. They are a necessary but heavy burden. Elfen was straight unreadable because he was an idiot. I don't care if fucking Yosarian or Glork replace in, they aren't gonna make Elfen less of an idiot, even if they play the straight up townest game one can play. The spot is still tainted. And If we choose to clear the idiocy, we could be giving the scum a pass and the game. This is an awkward view, but (since you are on about meta too) meta me. I think PBuG and most other players who have played with me(which is still most the game) can attest to the fact that I hold replacement spots as far more scummy then regular spots. Most people that replace out are either caught scum or someone who never showed up in the beginning. Also, we established that Toro should be shooting Jakesh.
3) I don't think those are weird views. You can't predict behavior based on such a small sample size. If I get in a fight when I'm drunk, it's unfair to assume I always fight when i'm drunk based on one incident. Why do you think psychologist use samples of 100s even 1000s in their studies? Because 1 incident doesn't mean there is a correalation. Also didn't we go over the weird=/=scummy thing before(this applies to 2 and 3)?

Also, is tunneling the only thing you stop lurking to do?

[PJ.]

Scum motivated behaviors you have exhibited:

1. Changing reads that coincide with wagon momentum;
   
2. Attacking the attacker and not the attack;
   
3. Justifying actions after the fact with information not available and unprovable;
   
4. Knowing someone's town alignment
   ;
   
5. Directing a possible vig kill to a single individual
   ; and,
   
6. Mismatched suspicions and voting (debatable).

I didn't see where he knew someone's alignment
Directing the vig is fine at this point, still saying Toro should vig Jakesh

[PJ.]

Hiplop also has 3 votes

[PJ.]

Daydreamt is a word?!

its not.

[PJ.]

Are you all taking it in turns to point out the errors in my votecounts or something? :3

It's a conspiracy

Fixed , ty

We figured we would do it in shifts.

[PJ.]

@Xvart: the others are indicative of scum, but I feel CC and Hiplop are much more scummy at this point in time.

@Volkann

1) Pointing that Emp did it was a way of saying why I'm the only one answering for it. Also, If he doesn't do it, we lynch him for being scum, if he's town he should do it because he obviously played poorly enough and anti-town enough to be a detriment thus should martyr himself for the town. Also, it prevents him from mis-vigging anyone. On a more mafia theory related note, I generally think vig's are a detriment to the town due to them generally hitting town.
2) Oh don't get me wrong, he was incredi-scummy but it could be because he was an idiot. I'm not sure if he was idiot scum or idiot town, and I feel that if a super talented player comes in it could cause us to clear him because we will write off Elfen's scumminess because he was an idiot. I guess calling for a vig is the wrong play but we should definently take that spot very very seriously.

[PJ.]

1) Pointing that Emp did it was a way of saying why I'm the only one answering for it. Also, If he doesn't do it, we lynch him for being scum, if he's town he should do it because he obviously played poorly enough and anti-town enough to be a detriment thus should martyr himself for the town. Also, it prevents him from mis-vigging anyone. On a more mafia theory related note, I generally think vig's are a detriment to the town due to them generally hitting town.

But you're forgetting that one-shot scum would be bizarre. Thus, if we let him make a free choice tonight, there is still a prospect that he will hit scum and, moreover, his claim is easily tested if he is faking it.

SK could easily just make 1 kill and let it go. Scum could just claim he was blocked. How else would you test it?

[PJ.]

I'm not sure that was what he is getting at also he is one shot so I'm assuming if his shot is blocked that's the end of it.

[PJ.]

@mod: So we are looking for a replacement for Jakesh and Elfen/torquez,right?

Also can we get prods on Thomith, PBuG and Toro, with a pending prod on CC as well

[PJ.]

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah that doesn't help Hiplop's case at all. I'm all for a Hiplop lynch at this point.

[PJ.]

That was convoluted.

[PJ.]

Panzer - you certainly haven't done much the last couple of pages to alleviate your connection to Hoppster upon his scum flip.

But if he flips town, does that make me more town and you more scum?

[PJ.]

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

This goes back to the directing vig kill argument. You are fine with a vig shooting

any lurker

but you want it tied down to a specific lurker for what purpose? Why does it matter which lurker he shoots if you are fine with generalized lurker kill?

No, he is fine with toro being a lurker as long as we can pick his shot.

[PJ.]

Despite all the scumtells I believe Hoppster to have committed over the course of the last few RL days Panzer has been giving me scummy vibes with his overall behavior. Nothing concrete but just a little bit here and there. It's a strange dichotomy because ever since I accused Hoppster and Panzer of being scum together Panzer has started behaving differently. I am having contradictory reads because I felt/feel that if Hoppster is scum Panzer must be scum with him; but recently with Panzer's behavior I feel that if Panzer is scum then Hoppster might be town. Coupled with my misread of Hoppsters point that I discussed already I feel that maybe I should back away and look at the forest and not a single tree. I'll give more details on the contradiction later but I need to ask Hoppster a few things prior to doing so.

Hoppster

, putting everything aside for the moment, I would like to know your feelings on the following post:

Panzer - you certainly haven't done much the last couple of pages to alleviate your connection to Hoppster upon his scum flip.

But if he flips town, does that make me more town and you more scum?

You say you are town, so what are your feelings about this post?

So no actual answer? Essentially your entire case on me being scum is, "If Hoppster is scum, I'm scum" and now your casting this net of suspicion on me saying I've been acting different and if I'm scum hoppster's town. Is the vice versa true as well or are you just blowing smoke up everyone's ass?

Also, I've had suspicion on me for quite a long time(Hi, Sundy), so why would I act differently based on your post that I don't even fully read(I skim them)? Lately I've been skimming both you and hoppster's post. Wall's are annoying and usually convoluted and the gist I'm getting is you're saying "Look gais, he's scum because 123456" and Hoppster is saying "Hi Gais, this is where I have previously mentioned 123456. LOLOLOLOL He's not reading my posts, see gais". I still think one of the two of you are scum, but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum. My vote will stay there, and unless you want more of a case from me, gonna make a more compelling case on hoppster(or a new target), or actually want to build a case on me, I don't really have much to add.

[PJ.]

Wall's are annoying

Also:

but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum.

?

walls are annoying...pretty self explanatory. Walls of Text are annoying. Xvart posts in walls. Walls are long, grueling reads.

Also you should read the whole sentence.

I still think

one of the two of you are scum

, but I'm much more convinced that

one of the one Hiplop's in the game

are scum"

One of the two(Xvart and Hoppster) are most likely scum because of the way they've gone after each other. I'm not compelled by Xvart's arguement. I'm sure one of the one hiplop's in the game(only one person in the game named hiplop, 1 of 1)is scum. It was a clever way to word, "I think hiplop is scum, far more than hopp.

Opinions on The Fool: Picking up where jakesh left off and justs on a wagon in a scummy fashion while going with kinda popular scumreads. No real reasons.

FoS:The Fool

Trying to fit in and wagonning in a scummy way.

[PJ.]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Way to pat him on the back for something I said 2 or 3 pages ago.

[PJ.]

It was actually 5 pages ago.

[PJ.]

Hoppster is such a considerate gentleman.

[PJ.]

I also just recent finished a game with him, He seemed to tunnel a lot harder. He essentially stayed on target the whole game. I didn't notice this but now that everyone is pointing it out, I want back and checked. I'd be willing to see if this is a meta trait.

Vote:SleepyKrew

I would be willing to bet that if sleepy flips that Xvart is his buddy.

I really really hate the Sundy vote above me though. What specifically changed your mind? The fact that you might be able to wagon me if he flips?

[PJ.]

I said I'd be interested in seeing if was a metathing. I think he his scum independent of this.

[PJ.]

I said I'd be interested in seeing if was a metathing. I think he his scum independent of this.

Is this the entirety of your response to 591?

No, currently using my phone to post. explanation/case coming sometime today with a rebuttal to Xvart's crap.

[PJ.]

Just checked something. When hip joined the game, Panzer was all:
"Meta sucks."
"You can't meta from one game."
"Meta is garbage."

Now let's look at his latest post... Hmm...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

General question for anyone who wants to answer it:

Does this REALLY NOT seem like a bus to anyone? I can't get over the idea that this would be a really bad move by SK if he and Panzer were scum-buddies. And that worries me.

Seems more like flailing scum trying to link himself to the most suspicious townie. If you're going out, you might as well take on with you. And as scum if you can derail your own wagon, probably a good thing to try.

@Vollkan/591: The meta tell is periphery, and did encourage me on to hop on the wagon, but he is scummy regardless of his meta. He has been fairly non-commital and cautious. Hasn't ever truly scumhunted in this game(which I would attribute to a handful of players in the game) and majority of his post are just meaning less one liners or questions clarifying kinda pointless things. If it also happens to be his meta, then that's something for me to keep in mind if i play more games with him in the future, but his actions are scummy on their own

Panzer - you certainly haven't done much the last couple of pages to alleviate your connection to Hoppster upon his scum flip.

But if he flips town, does that make me more town and you more scum?

I was hoping Hoppster would have said something about this post but I see we are running out of time so I'll go ahead.

1) First of all, this is a terrible question and reaks of inside information and future day bandwagon development. Regarding the actual question, how am I to know what the town will think of me and you upon Hoppster's flip? As with any day, I'll let then town judge me upon that flip and if Hoppster flipped (and flipped town) they will have to decide if scum would fight tooth and nail for the lynch of someone who flipped town.

I first started to get more concerned with my reads on you two being scum together here with your struck out version of my scumtell list but no real commentary on the rest of the list. It appeared to be a soft weak defense which confused me because I didn't see scum connecting themselves that obviously to a buddy especially after already being accused of being buddies, but it wasn't that substantial or concrete compared to Hoppster so I let it go.

2)Then you later came and told me what I was saying about Hoppster was convoluted and nothing else other than your obvious defense of Hoppster regarding directing vig kills. This sort of commentary adds nothing because you clearly weren't even interested in what I was saying despite engaging in the conversation previously. I even asked you what was convoluted and since I was having strange feelings about your previous post I figured I would see how you reacted to being accused again of being scum with him

.

(Pertains to 1)You came back projecting on flips that hadn't occurred setting up a lynch on me and proving your towniness D2. The biggest point is even though you were pretending to be engaged in the Hoppster/xvart debate your only interest was the outcome tomorrow and not the outcome today

.

I would be willing to bet that if sleepy flips that Xvart is his buddy.

3)You really are doing your best to tie down my lynch tomorrow based on whoever flips, aren't you?

I'm much more comfortable with a Panzer lynch today but I also recognize the likelihood of SleepyKrew being scum now that I've stepped back from the game and reread other areas.

1) Now I understand why hoppster was frustrated with you. You realize that question was in response to you calling me Hoppster's buddy, right? Wouldn't that count as "projecting on flips that hadn't occurred setting up a lynch(in the future)"? I think it most certainly does, and you are far more guilty of it then I am, considering your entire case on me is based on Hoppster being scum(not confirmed) and crap logic. I was simply asking you based on you calling me Hoppsters buddy, if he flipped town, if you would see me as a town defending/in agreement with another townie. This clearly isn't the case since you have composed this whole case casting a fairly large net of suspicion.

2)I was saying that single post, with all the different coloured footnotes was convulted and I couldn't follow it, not the arguement. And I am absolutely for directing the probable lying SK/Scum, was defending Hoppster because I shared the same view he did, and didn't find it scummy. As far as the other striken out stuff, I had nothing to say to the non-striken stuff because i agreed with you, which i explicitely stated in following post.

3) This smells like a bus to you. You've essentially hopped on with out any reasona and just simply said, "I reread some areas" What did you reread? What was so strong that it made you agree with your main target for the entirity of your prescence in the game?

FoS:Xvart

For, blatantly wagoning Sleepy without reason, spouting some serious fail logic against both me and Hoppster, and generally seemimg like scum trying to make big deals out of nothing.

And I will repeat my statement, Seems like xvart is bussing Sleepy.

[PJ.]

Also, my blatant defense of Hoppster directing the vig(that you linked), was just me clairfying what he meant for you. I have supported it on other occasions but that post doesn't mean what you're saying it means.

[PJ.]

Yes, and I admitted it was the trigger.

The only way I can attempt to explain is through poker. If me and another player are playing heads up, and I have every right to think that I have the better hand and then someone tells me that there is a good chance that he could be a guy who bluffs a lot, I'm gonna call because it will give me information I can use in the future.

I have every reason to think his is scum, but I'm curious to see if this is a meta tell, because it could help me in the future and in the long run, it will make him a better player.

[PJ.]

FoS:Empking

for his stance on useless roles. If we all decided to lynch useless roles, he would have been lynched page 4. Also, he just seems so throw together.

I think this wagon has two scum on it and they are just straight bussing. (xvart and Empking in my opinion)

Speaking of Godfather claims(referencing the Toro situation), I'm much more apt to call this a godfather claim.

Mod:I understand beggers can't be choosers but did you have to pick up a replacement named "Sunday"? My brain is about to break

[PJ.]

So... No response to my comparison between basing scum reads off of unflipped town reads and basing scum reads off of unflipped scum reads?

I didn't think it needed one because it was complete and utter crap, and I'm just planning on igoring your ridiculous and garbage case, on the grounds of it being ridiculous and garbage obviously.

[PJ.]

I didnt want to hammer randomly, thats horrible for us. Just some discussion, really. That said.

VOTE: Sleepykrew

I really hope you're scum..

Obvious bus is obvious.

Can we lynch hiplop tomorrow? I'm pretty sure this combined with other stuff I have pointed out is pretty much guaranteeing him as scum.

[PJ.]

Your logic is completely crap. And you are really good at tunneling and bussing. Keep up the good work.

[PJ.]

Your logic is completely crap. And you are really good at tunneling and bussing. Keep up the good work.

If his logic is crap, do you think he is scum?

Can we lynch hiplop tomorrow?

We should have lynched him today

Yes I think xvart is scum, and I think Sleepy is his buddy. Hiplop could be buddy number three.

[PJ.]

Ah, Quilford. I've played in a game with him before. Good times.

fucking christ you're useless

[PJ.]

Vote:xvart]/b] Positive he bussed Sleepy.

[PJ.]

Vote:xvart

[PJ.]

If you use ctrl+f "SleepyKrew" on Xvart's ISO, you'll see he mentions him 22 times.

3 are quoting him. 4 are quotes with SleepyKrew in it and 9 are completely irrelevent(things like SleepyKrew asked this, or "Hoppster is voting SleepyKrew" things that hold no real value.

That leaves 6 more, lets examine them shall we?

[quote=xvart]I'm much more comfortable with a Panzer lynch today but I also recognize the likelihood of SleepyKrew being scum now that I've stepped back from the game and reread other areas.
SleepyKrew - consider this my intent to hammer so claim. [/quote]

Here's 2 of 6 and the first time he mentions Sleepykrew in any negative light at all. Really vague and just mentions "I've stepped back and reread other areas. Doesn't tell us those areas, and clearly sees it as a plan B lynch

He then doesn't realize that Sleepy is l-2 and can't hop on, so settles for trying to force a claim.

Most townies know how many votes their number two suspects have, and it just seems like he's trying to earn townie points by showing interest in waning moments of Sleepy's life.

[quote=xvart]Oh. I thought he was L-1.

VOTE: SleepyKrew[/quote]

This is the post he votes him on. Just hops on without any reason because he realizes he can safely and earn some easy town cred.

[quote=xvart]I basically reread the entire game, the cases on SleepyKrew (including Hoppsters). I don't think it will come as a shock to anyone but I was hard core tunneled and as I said needed to step back. Like I said, I would much rather lynch you today but I see the merit of the SleepyKrew case that others have outlined.[/quote]

Two more sleepy mentions here(1 more left). Insist that he read the cases on SleepyKrew and reread the entire game but isn't specfic(which clearly avoid the question I asked of him) about what changed his mind. Just says, I read the game and the cases, I'm convinced and essentialy admits that he's just coattailing other cases but doesn't say what specifically.

[quote=xvart]
A 2 shot BP seems strange as a town role if Toro was telling the truth about his role. I suspect SleepyKrew is not telling us the full story. I've never seen a 2 shot BP before. Has anyone else, and if so what game[/quote]

Just questions the claim but not in the same aggresive manner he'd been playing. It's kinda passive and regrettful like he knows that Sleepy is gonna get lynched for the bad claim.

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

[PJ.]

I will re format that post, sorry

[PJ.]

If you use ctrl+f "SleepyKrew" on Xvart's ISO, you'll see he mentions him 22 times.

3 are quoting him. 4 are quotes with SleepyKrew in it and 9 are completely irrelevent(things like SleepyKrew asked this, or "Hoppster is voting SleepyKrew" things that hold no real value.

That leaves 6 more, lets examine them shall we?

I'm much more comfortable with a Panzer lynch today but I also recognize the likelihood of SleepyKrew being scum now that I've stepped back from the game and reread other areas.
SleepyKrew - consider this my intent to hammer so claim.

Here's 2 of 6 and the first time he mentions Sleepykrew in any negative light at all. Really vague and just mentions "I've stepped back and reread other areas. Doesn't tell us those areas, and clearly sees it as a plan B lynch

He then doesn't realize that Sleepy is l-2 and can't hop on, so settles for trying to force a claim.

Most townies know how many votes their number two suspects have, and it just seems like he's trying to earn townie points by showing interest in waning moments of Sleepy's life.

Oh. I thought he was L-1.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

This is the post he votes him on. Just hops on without any reason because he realizes he can safely and earn some easy town cred.

I basically reread the entire game, the cases on SleepyKrew (including Hoppsters). I don't think it will come as a shock to anyone but I was hard core tunneled and as I said needed to step back. Like I said, I would much rather lynch you today but I see the merit of the SleepyKrew case that others have outlined.

Two more sleepy mentions here(1 more left). Insist that he read the cases on SleepyKrew and reread the entire game but isn't specfic(which clearly avoid the question I asked of him) about what changed his mind. Just says, I read the game and the cases, I'm convinced and essentialy admits that he's just coattailing other cases but doesn't say what specifically.

A 2 shot BP seems strange as a town role if Toro was telling the truth about his role. I suspect SleepyKrew is not telling us the full story. I've never seen a 2 shot BP before. Has anyone else, and if so what game

Just questions the claim but not in the same aggresive manner he'd been playing. It's kinda passive and regrettful like he knows that Sleepy is gonna get lynched for the bad claim.

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

[PJ.]

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

If you thought the Hoppster case was complete crap, why did you seem so confused as to which one of them was scum?

Because to be quite honest, I didn't fully read the cases until they pertained to me. I'm allergic to walls of post you see.

[PJ.]

He then doesn't realize that Sleepy is l-2 and can't hop on, so settles for trying to force a claim.

Most townies know how many votes their number two suspects have

, and it just seems like he's trying to earn townie points by showing interest in waning moments of Sleepy's life.

1

This is a terrible argument and an even terrible scumtell. I'll ask the rest of the players if they know how many votes their number two suspect has at all times. Plus, a couple people talking about him being a L-1 on the previous page. Plus, what do you think about my immediate vote five minutes later once the lynch threshold was clarified?

Two more sleepy mentions here(1 more left). Insist that he read the cases on SleepyKrew and reread the entire game but isn't specfic(which clearly avoid the question I asked of him) about what changed his mind. Just says, I read the game and the cases, I'm convinced and essentialy admits that he's just coattailing other cases but doesn't say what specifically.

2

Yes. As I've said I was hard core tunneled for most of the day. Once I started questioning my read I went with my next biggest scum read (you) and starting going in that direction. I was hardly paying any attention to anyone else so when I said I went back and reread that's exactly what I had done. You asked me what I read and I said the cases, the entire game, etc. Had I come back and said "I think SleepyKrew is scum because of X, Y, and Z which has already been said" you would now be saying "oooohhh so scummy sheeping all the other cases." So damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Just questions the claim but not in the same aggresive manner he'd been playing. It's kinda passive and regrettful like he knows that Sleepy is gonna get lynched for the bad claim.

3]/b]You are over simplifying the game progression as my aggressive manner was distributed over several day and hundreds of posts. I don't always play that aggressively but when I absolutely convinced I have found scum I go after them fighting tooth and nail, advocating for their lynch and lobbying for votes. Compared to SleepyKrew I came in at the end when the case had already been built so my tenacity wasn't necessary.

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

4

This is what is especially ironic because you agreed with over half my observations on Hoppster were indicative of scum behavior, so you can't really honestly say that my case was

now

"complete and utter crap filled with fail logic." Can you explain this contradiction?

5

So it seems the only legitimate part of your case on me is that I didn't say anything about SleepyKrew all day until the end; but I must remind you that those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So I'll let you quote your observations about SleepyKrew's behavior and where you stated how that behavior is indicative of scum. Just as a preview to everyone else I found one, which is a pretty weak meta argument but I'll delve into that more once Panzer gives us a point by point display of his commentary on SleepyKrew.

1: Kinda strawman, and I know exactly how many votes my 2nd choice had the entirity of D-1 and D-2. My D-2 choice(emp cause I still don't like the claim) has 0 votes.

2. Saying you were tunneled is not an excuse. Tunneling is indicative of scum.

3. Not really, you were moderately aggresive from the start and this is a pretty crap response.

4. Answered that to PBuG. I didn't fully read your case and was kinda bullshiting the agreement just to point out what i disagreed with from my skims

5. The burden of proof is on the accuser, I'm not doing work for you. Also I would like the other townies to note that Xvart didn't actually defend himself against the case at all.

[PJ.]

[quote="xvart]

---

And going back to some unfinished business from yesterday:

So... No response to my comparison between basing scum reads off of unflipped town reads and basing scum reads off of unflipped scum reads?

I didn't think it needed one because it was complete and utter crap, and I'm just planning on igoring your ridiculous and garbage case, on the grounds of it being ridiculous and garbage obviously.

Again, calling something "ridiculous and garbage" doesn't make it so. I've asked you twice to explain why it is "ridiculous and garbage". I've pretty clearly laid out my thinking and asked why you believe this to be "ridiculous and garbage" and asked you if my logic was flawed. So I'll ask again, what is "ridiculous and garbage" about this line of thinking:

1) Now I understand why hoppster was frustrated with you. You realize that question was in response to you calling me Hoppster's buddy, right? Wouldn't that count as "projecting on flips that hadn't occurred setting up a lynch(in the future)"? I think it most certainly does, and you are far more guilty of it then I am, considering your entire case on me is based on Hoppster being scum(not confirmed) and crap logic. I was simply asking you based on you calling me Hoppsters buddy, if he flipped town, if you would see me as a town defending/in agreement with another townie. This clearly isn't the case since you have composed this whole case casting a fairly large net of suspicion.

The difference between the two (me calling scum based on a scum lynch versus you calling someone scum based on a town flip) is that yours has the worst possible result: two dead townies. Mine has, at worst, the death of one townie. Calling someone scum based on a town flip is exponentially more scummy for that very reason and the fact that it has more inside information than mine (unless I am scum with both of the two I proposed as being scum together).

In the suggestion of two people being scum together (one explicitly because the other flips scum) the best case scenario is we get two dead scum. In the worst case scenario we get one dead townie. In your scenario the best case scenario will yield you one dead townie and one scum while the worst case scenario yields two dead townies. In the event that Hoppster did flip town what would we have lost? One town member and the secondary case I had on you. That's why I wasn't big on pushing you in addition to Hoppster since the only read I had on you at the time was in relationship to him, so I was content to just throw the occasional thing out to you to see how you would respond.

This is pretty important, and if anything, a clear explanation might only strengthen your case on me. But I guess that is the fundamental difference between you and me: I actually advocate for getting others to lynch who I think is scum while you sit back and mud sling and don't try and build a case when an opportunity (apparently) arises.

VOTE: Panzerjager[/quote]

I have built a case, also who's mudslinging now? This is the second time you accused me of doing something you have done yourself in this game. And for the record I'm sticking to my guns, I'm not gonna go on about how your logic is crap because it's obvious to most of the town and it would take far to much time.

[PJ.]

This is gonna be a short post, sorry guys been busy with work and holiday.

CC is scum and so is Xvart.

CC has been active lurking and spouting all sorts of scummy stuff that all of us have taken turns pointing out

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

also, on meta, It's garbage because people don't use it correctly. Bad players like hiplop come in and try to base a case on meta on bad information(which i already talked about). If you base it correctly(like vollkan did) it can be a valuable tool, but most meta examinations are crap.

I'll lynch CC or Xvart but I'm keeping my vote on him

also, Thomith what are you doing dude?

[PJ.]

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

1. His point that you focus on Emp's claim over SK's more dubious claim is interesting. Concerning 282, what made you think Empking is scum trying to throw off an investigation and not a miller following the often-quoted game theory that optimal miller play is to claim right away?

also, on meta, It's garbage because people don't use it correctly. Bad players like hiplop come in and try to base a case on meta on bad information(which i already talked about). If you base it correctly(like vollkan did) it can be a valuable tool, but most meta examinations are crap.

2. You commented in 447 that "You can't meta someone from 2 games". Vollkan only used one. Could you explain how Vollkan's meta case is better than hiplop's, which you primarily decried for sample size reasons?

You also haven't commented much on his case against your shifting stance on xvart/Hoppster, as far as I can tell.

Also:

My D-2 choice(emp cause I still don't like the claim) has 0 votes.

I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying.

3. What changed your mind?

VOTE: Panzerjager

1. Because Hoppster said it was a joke and I believe him, and I already said why he would try to throw of an investigation

2. I decried it for time reasons and other reasons as well. It was numorous reasons. Vollkann at least at a relevent sample. Small sample size but both his case and mine were based on other things beside Meta. I already answered his question on this(the same questions that xvart is ignoring.

3. There just can't be that many scum and he has been playing pretty town beside that. I guess saying I don't find it scummy was the wrong words just everything else makes it not as bad as Xvart or CC

[PJ.]

And what about me do you like?
CC, the reason the game is going is because Emp claimed Miller.
PEDIT: Of course scum can claim Miller.
BTW, I'm a Miller Mason Recruiter.

@Hoppster, This post doesn't sound like a joke to me but I'm really bad at that. And honestly, no reason as to why empking over sleepy. I think they're both scum.

And yes I still feel Empking is gambiting scum.

Gonna reread to try to remember what I was thinking cause I'm going to get myself lynched if I keep saying shit willy nilly

[PJ.]

That was me agreeing with PBuG for the record

[PJ.]

1. His point that you focus on Emp's claim over SK's more dubious claim is interesting. Concerning 282, what made you think Empking is scum trying to throw off an investigation and not a miller following the often-quoted game theory that optimal miller play is to claim right away?

1. Because Hoppster said it was a joke and I believe him, and I already said why he would try to throw of an investigation

No, try again. In that post you had obviously thought SleepyKrew was making an actual claim.

In all honesty, I believe I stuck my vote on Empking because he is a better player. If I have two scummy people, I vote for the better player.

[PJ.]

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

You still haven't explained why you thought my case was reasonably sound up until I started attacking you, at which point they apparently became "fail logic", "utter crap," etc. And now that I've turned the heat up on you, my cases have gone beyond that into the

scummy

case pile. When did you deferintiate between my case being "fail logic" and "scummy"?

More votes please.

A) The contradictions aren't contradictions if you read all my posts(ironically the only time I contradicted myself was recently cause I previously forgot what I said)

B) It's still based on Hoppster being scum.

C) And the whole thing about calling me scum for asking you if you would think I was town if Hoppster flipped town, was soooo much bullshit. The scenario's didn't follow


I see the xvart wagon isn't gaining steam, and I'd much rather lynch probable scum cc then let Xvartscum lynch me with a bunch of lurkers

unvote Vote:CC

Also, Thomith what the fuck are you doing with that vote right now?

[PJ.]

And yes I still feel Empking is gambiting scum.

explain this please panzer, this reads scummy as hell to me as EK has been acting far more towny than you.

Oh, also I need context

[PJ.]

When he claimed Miller dude...So are you gonna read your role pm and unvote me or what?

[PJ.]

Unvote

Vote: Panzer

Reason?

[PJ.]

When he claimed Miller dude...So are you gonna read your role pm and unvote me or what?

miller claim does not mean scummy, as town could claim it to help cop in the long run. even if they are scum it will give cop one less person to investigate narrowing down a possible guilty report. is this the only reason why EK is scummy? if there is more please tell me.

You're an idiot. I give up.

A) Did you really forget we were masons together?

B)I already explained what was scummy About it, to you no less.

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

and Volkan is scummy because he uses a different scumhunting approach? how does this work either?

No, it seemed more that he claimed because he is prolific than because it was the right thing to do. He even pretty much stated so later. Something very close to "I figured I would get an investigation and I didn't want it to lead to a mislynch". That reads as scummy to me.

Also, I do find his approach scummy but I already admitted that it doesn't make him scum in every game.

[PJ.]

@ Panz: Is TheFool scum(my)?

Yes he's probably Xvart's buddy

[PJ.]

A) Did you really forget we were masons together?

...
ok rereading because of this.

Are you rereading your Role Pm?....

[PJ.]

@ Panz: Is TheFool scum(my)?

Yes he's probably Xvart's buddy

Captain corporal(4) - Sundy, PBuG, Hoppster, Panzerjager

Cause if it's not CC it's Fool

[PJ.]

We have been ignoring the QT to be honest, We post like hi blah blah stuff, I posted one thing about Empking miller and that was it.

[PJ.]

Id be willing to bet their aren't two millers(emp,sleepy) or two masons(me and thomith, sleepy and whomever). Is what the sentence meant. It was deliberatly vague cause I didn't wanna claim early.

Also I just liked the empking lynch more.

[PJ.]

@monk: It's the complete lack of suspicion and then a turnaround vote without ever explaining it. Here's my original case...

If you use ctrl+f "SleepyKrew" on Xvart's ISO, you'll see he mentions him 22 times.

3 are quoting him. 4 are quotes with SleepyKrew in it and 9 are completely irrelevent(things like SleepyKrew asked this, or "Hoppster is voting SleepyKrew" things that hold no real value.

That leaves 6 more, lets examine them shall we?

I'm much more comfortable with a Panzer lynch today but I also recognize the likelihood of SleepyKrew being scum now that I've stepped back from the game and reread other areas.
SleepyKrew - consider this my intent to hammer so claim.

Here's 2 of 6 and the first time he mentions Sleepykrew in any negative light at all. Really vague and just mentions "I've stepped back and reread other areas. Doesn't tell us those areas, and clearly sees it as a plan B lynch

He then doesn't realize that Sleepy is l-2 and can't hop on, so settles for trying to force a claim.

Most townies know how many votes their number two suspects have, and it just seems like he's trying to earn townie points by showing interest in waning moments of Sleepy's life.

Oh. I thought he was L-1.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

This is the post he votes him on. Just hops on without any reason because he realizes he can safely and earn some easy town cred.

I basically reread the entire game, the cases on SleepyKrew (including Hoppsters). I don't think it will come as a shock to anyone but I was hard core tunneled and as I said needed to step back. Like I said, I would much rather lynch you today but I see the merit of the SleepyKrew case that others have outlined.

Two more sleepy mentions here(1 more left). Insist that he read the cases on SleepyKrew and reread the entire game but isn't specfic(which clearly avoid the question I asked of him) about what changed his mind. Just says, I read the game and the cases, I'm convinced and essentialy admits that he's just coattailing other cases but doesn't say what specifically.

A 2 shot BP seems strange as a town role if Toro was telling the truth about his role. I suspect SleepyKrew is not telling us the full story. I've never seen a 2 shot BP before. Has anyone else, and if so what game

Just questions the claim but not in the same aggresive manner he'd been playing. It's kinda passive and regrettful like he knows that Sleepy is gonna get lynched for the bad claim.

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

[PJ.]

Fool could be their buddy, but so could you. I don't like how you kinda flailed on whether you wanted to vote Xvart/Fool. Also You can't speculate Fools Relation to Xvart unless he flips, which was Xvart's fatal Flaw. His whole case on me is based on Hoppster being scum and then some very convincing picking and choosing of what to cut/paste. Right now it seems most people case on Fool is that Xvart is scum, which can't be done.

Right now, based sololy on their actions I'd be willing to push for a monk/CC lynch or an Xvart lynch. So let's go back to square 1.

Unvote:Vote:Xvart

[PJ.]

When did I project scum based on town flips? You called me scum based on Hoppster's nonexistent flip. And I asked if he flipped town if I'd be more town which you called scummy for bullshit reason.

My point was does the logic flow. Is it "If x flips scum, y is scum/if x flips town, y is town" or if you had an actual fucking case on me.

Also you're putting words in my mouth. We didn't claim we forgot, we claimed that we weren't using it/ignoring it.

At this point only scum could twist words this badly. You HAVE to be scum...

[PJ.]

Yes

[PJ.]

Yes

Seriously? Then why did you yell at Thom about his bad choice of vote in-thread?

Because we haven't used it in forever, I felt it would be a waste of my time, and I seriously thought he forgot his role. If he truly did forget his role he wouldn't have the qt cause it's in the PM that says "DUDE WHY ARE YOU VOTING YOUR FUCKING MASON PARTNER"

[PJ.]

My gut says that mason-claiming scum wouldn't claim daytalk if they didn't have it themselves. As such, Thomith's obliviousness isn't necessarily a scum tell, since he'd presumably be prepped for the gambit.

It doesn't really matter because we can't prove daytalking capabilities either way.

Panzer - you have yet to answer why:

1. You thought SleepyKrew's miller mason claim was serious;
   
2. You didn't believe that there would be two mason groups in the same game;
   
3. SleepyKrew was not a member of your supposed mason group;
   
4. You didn't vote SleepyKrew, who for all practical purposes, claimed scum from your point of view.

More to the point though, do you disagree that a masonry fakeclaim becomes flimsier as the game goes on, and is thus a bad lynch currently?

Depending on the setup and the amount of WIFOM that the town is willing to take, yes. However, I have seen scum fake claim mason before in situations where sustainability of the claim is difficult. I do not see the logic in withholding a lynch on someone, regardless of claim, in hopes that it gets busted open later. When scumhunting I look for motivation and intent. When someone contradicts previous statements and actions he has committed, especially when it direct correlates to game momentum/wagon movement, it is scummy.

With this in mind, and in my defense, the point that should be made is what is the scum motivation, intent, and benefit from being such a vocal player, advocating for lynches and fighting tooth and nail for lynches, and drawing incredible amounts of attention because of this? Furthermore, what is the scum benefit from continuing to push a lynch on someone who claimed mason unless I really believed it. Is that the sort of attention that a scum member would want?

If Panzer/Thomith are not scum then I would probably consider PBuG and Hoppster as scum. I haven't liked Empking's posting/voting as of late, but from my limited experience playing with him this isn't a scumtell. Hoppster has been fairly absent from the game since I shifted attention off of him.

I'm not claiming until there is an intent to hammer.

On the first bit, I just liked the Empking lynch better. I wasn't really thinking about the implications it would have when I did have to claim.

The second bit is just ridiculous,The first paragraph is simply refuted by saying I had three votes on me, and the momentum was clearly swaying on a CC lynch. The second paragraph screams of scum to me. Do you think you're the only vocal player on this site that has had to play scum? Keep in mind site history. Twito was awesome scum before he got banned and he was one of the most vocal players ever. Jdodge and TSQ are also decent scum and both are fairly vocal. Also, pushing the lynch of the masons would save your own ass as scum, and give you a chance to say "oops my bad tomorrow".

[PJ.]

Good cops don't let people know they are cops. Good towns don't talk about cops until they need to.

[PJ.]

Ok, done with the reread. The claim seems okay, but there's one thing that's setting me off:

Out of curiousity, PanzThom, do you have daytalk capabilities?

Yes we have daytalk.

Pardon if this is just me speaking from inexperience with normal games, but I didn't know that Masons could have a Daytalk in Normal mafia. The wiki for the mason role states that masons communicate at night, and day-rolepowers aren't listed as accepted normal role modifiers.

It's not in the explicitly non-normal modifier list either, I think it's a fine thing considering other games

If that were the case, then wouldn't it be considered a new/variant role? Only one can be allowed in a Mini, and there are two claimed day masons.

Daytalking is relatively standard in my experiance with masons.

[PJ.]

I'd have to dive pretty far in the site archives to be honest, all but 3 of my games are 2 years old, but I know I've dealt with them before

[PJ.]

Hey spoon I voted xvart in 929

[PJ.]

As I said, it's the only thing I could say because no real substantive case has actually been presented on me being scum (and if it has, a link to it will shut me up). It's also a comparison of play, specifically to Panzer. I have detailed exactly why Panzer's behavior, posts, and commentary come from a scum mindset and the best that I have actually seen presented on me is this WIFOM "his attacks are so scummy."

This is entirely untrue. I have stated several times why you are scummy, and why your attacks are scummy but you either have horrible reading comprehension or are deliberately twisting the words. Honestly I'm about to quit responding to you all together, and have been deliberately ignoring your case on me because it's shit.

[PJ.]

also, I echo monk's statement's entirely.

[PJ.]

I'm at my girlfriend's place so

V/LA until tuesday or beyond

And I'm just flat not reading or responding to xvart's post for the entirity of him being on this game. He's ridiculous.

[PJ.]

ITT xvart is a pompous ass. You realize that I claimed because of Thomith and not you right? You realize that you had pretty much nobody convinced I was scum right? You realize just about everyone in this game thinks you're a bad player and a detriment right, and fully realizes that you have been twisting everyone's words who have called you out for being horrible right? Players like you are why I quit mafia. Pull another name out of a hat for fucksake and tunnel on them.

[PJ.]

I'm town. He wasn't confirmed.

Vote:xvart

[PJ.]

Ummm. Is it acceptable to give up at this point?

Unvote, Vote:panzer

[PJ.]

I was stuck into the mason claim because I had breadcrumbed it for later in the game and I was trying to play in a way where Thomith wouldn't vote me, than he was lured in by Xvart's very silly case. I should have just played head up and let monk/CC get lynched.

Also, if Thomith said I was lying scum, the game would have been over quicker. I really screwed up shooting that mason claim so early, but I would like to point out that him making such a bad kill night 2 didn't help. He should have been aiming for the cop.

[PJ.]

I was stuck into the mason claim because I had breadcrumbed it for later in the game and I was trying to play in a way where Thomith wouldn't vote me, than he was lured in by Xvart's very silly case. I should have just played head up and let monk/CC get lynched.

I think traitor is a pretty difficult role to play, and I think your breadcrumb was a pretty smart way to play it such that scum would want to kill you (I'm guessing if the scum tried to kill you you got recruited instead?) and then you could really flesh it out after having the opportunity to talk to your partners. But when it was joined with the miller stuff it undermined the entire thing since you would have to eventually claim mason with the person that just "counterclaimed" you or

hope that Thomith stays out of the limelight

.

This. It was going according to plan until he voted me, than I just didn't know what to do, so I threw a hail mary.