[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Horrifying Hero]

/confirm

[Horrifying Hero]

/Double confirm, but not without purpose, since you'll need to know:

Mastin half of us (me) will be V/LA from 7/16 'til 7/22.

[Horrifying Hero]

First off, this is a hydra of mastin and ateralus22 in case Anyone's unaware. Kool, we're both slightly unsure of how we'll be posting (either as one entity or two individuals signing posts, we'll figure it out as we go along.)

btw.

Role Claim: Miller

Everyone, rvs is now over.

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Normal, run of the mill, miller.

Why's that?

This is the part of the game where we shift from randomness to game theory regarding my slot.

Do you think it was wise for us to claim at this point, or perhaps should we have waited? Do you trust our claim, or not?

1. Do you prefer to be mafia or town?
2. How do you plan to catch the scum?

1. Town, playing as scum is boring.
2. With a net. (If you want a serious answer you're better off looking at each of our wiki pages)

~Lateralus22

[Horrifying Hero]

Vote: Wicked

.

[Horrifying Hero]

Confirm

VOTE: Wickedestjr.

There is no universe where he is town in this game.

[Horrifying Hero]

We've looked through every single universe in existence and see you as town in none of them, duh.

[Horrifying Hero]

This game.

Way too easy.

Wicked, thanks for giving you one of your buddies. When you die, Yonzy's next.
Care to give us your third?

[Horrifying Hero]

Oh, if you think we're scum now, just wait until you hear this!

Unclaim

.

F

irst off, this is a hydra of mastin and ateralus22 in case

A

nyone's unaware.

K

ool, we're both slightly unsure of how we'll be posting (either as one entity or two individuals signing posts, we'll figure it out as we go along.)

btw.

Role Claim: Miller

E

veryone, rvs is now over.

~Lat

Note that F, A, K, and E are the only caps in that post minus the claim itself.

[Horrifying Hero]

By the way, main reason we haven't been posting stuff, is we're observing things. Looking for the final scum.

btw, KKN wagon needs to die. As does any attempt at a avasthearties or tarsonis wagon--they're both town.

oh, and some of our reads, for the curious.
STRONG TOWN: Hez
TOWN: Lobster
El simo

SCUM:
Wicked
Yonzy

We're still looking for the final scum.

[Horrifying Hero]

How much of this is attributable to that fact?

Virtually zero. The Mastin half of us has internet for ~8 hours a day, albeit on a super-slow dial-up. Those hours just happen to be in the middle of the night.

The question I have to ask: why?

Why not?

(Serious answer--to catch scum. And Wicked = caught scum. )

What did you learn through the fake claim?

The alignment of almost the entire playerlist, naturally.

[Horrifying Hero]

Quite frankly, the better question to ask is how ISN'T he?

[Horrifying Hero]

The concise version?

Wicked is living, breathing scum who bleeds off scumtells in every single one of his posts.

Seriously, there's no more concise way than that.

The only way to describe it other than that is to quote every post Wicked's done and explain exactly why he's scum. And I do mean it--I can quote every single post he's done and point out all the scumminess within. He has literally zero town posts this game.

[Horrifying Hero]

Sup? Skimmed through the thread a few days ago, I'll read it over again tomorrow and then post.

One of my mini normal games is finished, and another is in the night, so I'll be able to focus on this game.

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Actually, the Mastin half of us has been doing most of our posting, due to the Lat half of us being busy elsewhere--don't worry; that will change. Wall should be incoming.

[Horrifying Hero]

Who should I vote?

Wicked, naturally.

(Wall still incoming.)

[Horrifying Hero]

I'm going to be honest:

When I said, "Mastin has been doing most of our posting", a better choice of words would be, "Mastin has done every single post not marked with a Lat signature at the end." And when I've been saying, "wall incoming", I meant, "LAT'S wall incoming". Meaning I've been trying to get him to post in here. He just asked me to post his wall.

Anyway, here's

my

rational behind the claim. It was supposed to be a fun, productive way to start the game because,

A.

I figured it would bypass all that RVS bullshit and start the REAL game asap. Plus, without even asking I'd have a decent profile of each player who reacted, I'd know where they stand on certain aspects of theory. Better yet, I was looking forward to seeing some heat some people so I could determine who's attacks are genuine and so forth.

B.

It was fun.

But, it didn't go as planned. You see, I was inspired by Hoopla's gambit here, but I switched PGO with miller because I saw KKN on the playlist. I wasn't expecting everyone to ignore it, and I thought it'd be a brilliant way to see how scum would react seeing as it's not the standard run of the mill game start, and it'd FORCE them to react unconventionally.

Anyway, Wick pretty much ruined it. But here's what I got from his posts. It's like he doesn't give a fuck, he isn't curious as town would be, hell he hints at scum-motivated reason why Mastin would claim miller, but doesn't legitimately pressure him.

Instead, he's nods the claim off as nothing and encourages everyone to answer lame-RQS questions, which I still don't know if they had a productive use.

Most people ignored it, unfortunately I have no idea whether it's because their scum who didn't want to take a stance at all or just went herp derp miller claim. Let's do nothing.

Btw, Hez is pretty obvious town. This shouldn't need explanation.

Yonzy's also pretty obvious scum. Town don't RVS vote for the sake of. Scum do because they want to blend in. It's even better because this beautiful interaction between Yonzy/Wick shows that Wick is literally asking questions for the sake of.

He hasn't posted much (only twice, if I recall)

. . . but they seem like they are just trying to stay out of the way of the game, while being there to

make HH appear active.

I know this hydra account is controlled by two experienced players, so it's weird that they haven't added anything to the discussion.

This is pretty lolarious.

Evidence: Hm, HH has 2 posts.
Conclusion: HOLY SHIT GUYS HH IS SCUM WHOS TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE HE'S HERE. HOLY FUCKING SHIT! LOOK AT HOW HE BLENDS IN WITH A MERE TWO POSTS, HE'S SO ACTIVE MAN!

Do I even have to explain how wrong this is?

Note, however, that this is Lat. I have far more to bring to the table than this. Just give me a day to celebrate my birthday, 'kay?

[Horrifying Hero]

Keep in mind, the Lat half of us is quite busy at the moment. The Mastin half of us has a lot more to bring to the table, including his belief for the whole scumteam (being, Wicked, Yonzy/Vifam, and Rainbowdash), but is preoccupied with his Birthday Party and it's a bad idea to multitask with such a large distraction.

[Horrifying Hero]

Oh, and a free bit of advice:

This game had eight pages yesterday night. In less than 12 hours, it got to twelve. Neither of us has managed to read it all the way through, but from what we've observed, Mastin has concluded that it's mostly Hez-Yank fighting, and he further concluded it was painfully townVtown and will attempt to defuse their at-each-others'-throats approach later.

[Horrifying Hero]

Then move it to us.

I'm pretty sure KKN is a mislynch at this stage.

Because I'm pretty confident Wicked-Yonzy/Vifam-Rainbow is our scumteam.


You can practically forget Lat's wall. Lat hasn't read the game. He is not fully caught up. I on the other hand have followed along, and this has just gotten stronger. Now that my party's over, it's time for me to give a true scumhunting effort.

[Horrifying Hero]

...Have we really been working on the wall

that

long? o_O

Dang.

If you couldn't tell, we told ourselves that we wouldn't post anything until we finished the wall, since we were tired of saying, "still working on it" while responding. Unfortunately, we haven't finished it, and if we don't post now, we'll get replaced and that wall'd be wasted.

It's rather extensive on Wicked, Vifam, and Rainbowdash being the scumteam, every bit as long as promised and then some--not even Mastin anticipated it being this conclusive. The level of detail is worth it, though.

[Horrifying Hero]

Note: Horrifying Hero, even if Wicked gets lynched, I want to see this wall.

Mastin and I are working on a collaborative post. Right now, Mastin's wall is sixteen pages, so we're trying to condense it in order to make it more concise, and maintain clarity. It seems time is against us, but we're doing our best to get it finished. Expect it before deadline in the very latest. Speaking of deadline...

Mod: Could you extend the deadline by 1-2 days please?

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Sorry it took so long and is not as well done as we would prefer. But here is what we DO have.

Warning,

Spoiler: Wall

A bit from our QT, paraphrased:
"Wick's prob-scum. Redundant questions, passive attitude towards miller claim".

@Everyone-
1. Do you prefer to be mafia or town?
2. How do you plan to catch the scum?

These are redundant questions that are placed to simulate town intentions. We know they're merely there for the sake of talking because he never brought up the information gained from the questions, thus they were there for the sake of appearances.

Tl;dr, it's artificial.

Horrifying Hero, are you just a normal miller or a death miller?

1: This is an incident of fluff, meant to give off the appearance of scumhunting, showing an overall scum Mindset. 2: For starters, death millers are banned from normal games--the mention of them shows a scum intention. 3: And finally, it's also extremely artificial. 4: In summary, There's little to no town Motive present.

Also, can you answer my questions, please?

Pushes the RQS further, when Lat had meant to end it. Additionally, it is constructed in an artificial way, displaying a distinct scum mind-set, because the questions Wicked posed held no actual weight.

Essentially,

Wick is scum for trying to keep us in the RVS. Rather anti-town.

Lat spoke very strongly in the QT about how angry he was everyone was wasting time by answering the pointless useless RQs given.

I doubt that a discussion about your claim would get us out of RVS.

This is a further example of carefully constructed language, giving off an extremely artificial feel. This is not a natural wording. You will observe by now that this is a consistent pattern in Wicked's posts, and this artificial construction is something we've found more likely to come from scum. It also hints at inside knowledge (as if Wicked knows the result of our claim already) and therefore shows that scum mind-set. It also tries to get discussion off of a viable discussion avenue.

Twice I've seen a player claim miller and both times I think everyone agreed to just forget about the miller claim and judge that player's alignment based on their play.

This reeks of scum trying to become a pack leader, trying to take control of the town. It has a scum motive, a scum intent, a scum mind-set, and is once more, artificial in its construction.

And we elaborate on this in our QT.

We learned nothing about anyone other than Wicked, because Wicked subtly planted the idea of completely ignoring it in the heads of others. Thereby reducing the information we could have gained from it.

I don't really think a discussion is necessary and I believe that we should just continue the game as normal.

Tries to get off of the issue, quickly. Contains artificial construction: "really", "necessary", "believe", "should", "as normal" are all key phrases which tell us that Wicked is using carefully selected words to leave a window of escape--a way out of his current path, leaving a door open to backtrack through if necessary.

If you are actually a miller, then I believe it was best for you to claim at this point rather than when the cop claims to have a guilty on you.

This also reeks of inside knowledge. It seems Wicked knows we're town and doubts the claim. (Helpful hint--this means that the game has no godfather and therefore that any investigative role's results can be trusted 100%.)

Additionally, it is once more artificial in its construction, and once more, it has a lot of words which leave open a way to get out, to backtrack if necessary. This subtle paranoia is a level of overcautiousness only found in scum.

@HezLucky-
1. I don't want any pie.
2. You've lost your scum LAZZZZZZZZER. Now how do you catch the scum? (serious question)

Continues to push meaningless questions, stalling the game. This also is a serious scum Tone--"serious question" in parenthesis feels the need to emphasize that it's a (weak, VERY weak!) attempt at scumhunting (scum motive--trying to appear more town than he really was). Which comes out to absolutely nothing. (Scum mind-set--the question ended up being pointless.)

Explain.

This is the first incident of a consistent scum pattern, but far from the last. Asking for the reasons is fine--Wicked just did it in a Scum Tone. It is not the town-way to ask for why someone is suspicious of you (scum mind-set). This is fishing, prodding us in order to try and convince us to go elsewhere. You'll get a better idea for this later.

Mafia, more challenging I guess.

Guess what we happen to think Yonzy is?

It wasn't meant to be offensive.

Scum being over-apologetic.

Can you elaborate/explain this please? Thanks.

An attempt to look like he's scumhunting, when he really does none--it's a prod into the mind of a pro-town player, to try and extract information about that interaction (scum intention). The subtle scum Tone present here gives away that Wicked is thinking from the perspective of scum--one of the ways to tell the difference is that Wicked includes a word he has no reason to include other than trying to get on one's good side: "Thanks."

Yonzy, why no random vote?

This is as blatant as scum interactions can get. It gives Yonzy a hint, while leaving open the option of bussing if need be. It also is very specific, towards a seemingly insignificant player, which is rather suspicious--why was Yonzy receiving special treatment compared to others?

I'm going to Unvote. Vote: ConfidAnon

Going after an easy mislynch. (Strong scum motive present.)

Firstly, the point he uses against el simo seems really weak/invalid.

Artificial wording once more, and leaving that back gate open if necessary for an emergency backtrack. It's quite weak itself, adding a bit of hypocrisy to it.

I don't see how saying he's been town in all of his other games is meant to imply he's town this game.

More subtle back-gate wording, an escape route in place should he need to back away from the CA suspicion.

Secondly, there's no reason for him to add the phrase "It's not a lynch-worthy case at this point, but better than an RV." unless he's scum giving himself room to backpedal.

This is hypocritical--see how much Wicked has been adding phrases not needed? See how many back doors Wicked has in place if he needs an emergency pedal? It's pure scum Tone, plain and simple.

There's additionally no town mindset--Wicked's logic seems like it was distinctly formed with a scum view on the game. He's trying to look for weaknesses, not look for scumminess.

FoS: YankCane So do you agree with ConfidAnon's point? Because you answered ConfidAnon's question for him about his point against el simo, but you haven't exactly said whether or not you agree with the point. It looks like IIoA. Suspicious.

Scum motive: he's only FoS'ing Yank despite the fact that this was stronger than his ConfidAnon vote. His "suspicious" was unnecessary and his usage of it there only comes from a scum outlook on the game--it's artificially constructed; pure scum tone. Additionally, Yank is another easy target to pursue.

It's weak 'scumhunting', which looks like it is distinctly from a scum mindset, which looks like it'd take thirty seconds to throw together as scum because it's the first scum impulse.

It still doesn't make sense. You either agree with ConfidAnon's point or you don't. If you didn't agree with it, then your post 37 seems out of place.

Weak scumhunting which is fencesitting, because he refuses to take a stronger stance on Yank. Artificial construction with his careful wording choices, and a scum outlook on the game. His stance on Yank is prodding into another option, another possible voting avenue, rather than locking into his ConfidAnon suspicion.

Can this point be used against avasthearties who also answered my questions seriously?

Scum posting what's essentially junk, trying to pass it off as legitimate scumhunting. It's also further going after yet ANOTHER easy target. It's pure scum motive, working under a scum mind-set, and declaring a scummy intention.

I didnt know RVS stage was still on lol
Vote: Kid Know Nothing

As pointed out, this was quite suspicious. Yonzy did an RV to attempt to blend in. It is one of the strongest Wicked/Yonzy connections, too.

Imo it seemed liek a legit reason to vote El simo.. I would've done the same thing, and even if it wasn't, he had reason for his suspicion.. so there's really no need to vote him.

Additionally, this looks like Yonzy is trying to get his scumbuddy off of ConfidAnon, through a weak defense of CA.

This REEKS of classic scum bussing. The point quoted was MORE than voteworthy, compared to his incredibly weak point against ConfidAnon.
As pointed out in our QT, it smells of scum-scum interactions, between Yonzy and Wicked. (It's no coincidence that immediately after this exchanged, we posted about Wicked literally handing us one of his scumbuddies.)

This is also fairly fluff. It is artificially constructed, carefully laid out. It has a scum intention behind it (pursuing yet another avenue). More than that, it gave off a slight scum-coaching-town vibe. Mastin was quite vocal about this in the QT, and how it solidified el simo as town.

...and my suspicion of you has strengthened. You didn't agree with ConfidAnon's suspicion of el simo, but still made a post adding on to or explaining ConfidAnon's point. That makes no sense if you're town.

Exact words leaving a back door open show artificial construction--"has strengthened", "that makes no sense if", things like that. His case against Yank is stronger than his case against ConfidAnon by this point, but he fails to put his vote where his mouth is, showing a scum motive. Do note however, that we say "is stronger than his ConfidAnon case". Not at all that it is strong. It's actually incredibly weak, as all the back door wording shows. His (scum) tone gives off the impression that he doesn't really believe anything he's saying.

This is a classic scumbuddy response. In order, "Sorry I failed you so bad." "What did I do wrong?" And then addressing Wicked again, on a random point, which he had no reason to do as town.

He could have made the point to pressure him more, maybe get more answers.

More than that, this is the second time Yonzy has defended a player from Wicked's attacks, in a way which screams "weak (and subtle) distancing".

sooo nobody is telling me what I did

This is a far more blatant, "what did I do wrong?!?".

I posted what I thinkkk why/how am I giving scumvibes?

This furthers that, by essentially looking to improve his play. Additionally, this is a dead-ringer for Wicked asking, "explain" in its purpose--scum prodding town, essentially. As bob pointed out, Yonzy was overall far more concerned with self-defense rather than scumhunting.

Firstly, Hez only said that one of my points wasn't a fair scumtell. He didn't call the whole case unfair.

Defending Hez. In this situation, it comes from a scum mind-set, with a pure scum motive and brilliant scum intention. It deprives Hez of answering, while simultaneously getting Yank all riled up on Hez, getting Yank to further attack Hez. It also weakly attacks Yank back, something Wicked doesn't follow through on, but leaves open. (Sound familiar? It should--this is becoming a signature Wicked move: leaving open doors that a pro-town player would close.)

Secondly, while I don't agree/support this point, if you honestly believe in it, why didn't you bring it up earlier? And if you found it voteworthy, why didn't you vote him until now?

Exact wording, for the back door. "while" "don't agree/support", "honestly believe", "until". Essentially, Scum Tone, Artificially constructed. Also an attempt to pass something off as legitimate scumhunting, when it really is a load of junk. (Scum motive.)

@Yonzy - What originally made you think that the RVS was over? The facepalm was because you didn't random vote in the RVS stage and when the game got serious you did random vote. Is there anybody you suspect at this stage of the game? Why?

This is about as blatant as Scum-Coaching-Scum can get. It leaves the door open to Yonzy, but at the same time, paints him in a more positive light than his original interaction implied.

Read the thread again, please. My vote on ConfidAnon is serious. Not random. And even if you had acted more suspicious than him I wouldn't unvote until ConfidAnon had responded to the vote and defended himself.

1: Scum tone. Seriously bad scum tone. "again,

please

", "serious.

Not random.

", "even if", "acted", "more suspicious". All of these words (and in the case of the bolded, the particular ways of emphasizing them--please at the end of the sentence rather than the beginning, a period rather than a comma for the emphasis), combined, are carefully constructed.

2: poor justification of his reasons. He feels the need to point out that his vote is serious, he feels the need to justify not having switched, he feels the need to justify still being on the dead wagon. Speaking of which...

3: Admitting to staying on an overall stale wagon.

...because, IIRC, Dizzy hasn't even made a post outside of the confirmation stage.

Looks like scum defending buddy.

Care to actually explain your reads?

Again, this is exactly the same scum way of asking that he did earlier, and Yonzy also displayed. It has a scum Motive behind it in the need for elaboration ("all the better to manipulate you with, my dear"), has a particular scum mind-set displayed in the Tone, unique to scum players.

One of the best ways to describe this tone is to compare it to a similar tone from scum: the "I CAN'T BELIEVE I'VE BEEN CAUGHT FOR ALL OF THESE *BEEP* REASONS!"

The relation here being that the scum see a significant need for reasons. The scum need to understand the reasoning of a pro-town player, because it's in their best interest to avoid getting caught. The scum want to avoid the things which players show suspicion of. They want to manipulate the town. They have a specific purpose, a specific need, for the reasons to be explained.

The town acts more curiously, more intrigued by the reads of another. They don't necessarily want the information--they're just naturally inquisitive.

Additionally, Wicked was also asking KKN about Yonzy, which is a slight Yonzy/Vifam defense.

That might be useful.

Though he can't explain it logically (gut), Mastin believes this to be Pure scum tone.

Mastin, if you are so certain that I'm scum, why not try to convince others to vote for me or explain why you are voting me?

There is no greater scumtell than a player who is familiar with the old '09-style Mastin than asking for Mastin to explain himself.

Wicked was asking Mastin, specifically. Not us, the hydra Horrifying Hero. Not Lat. He asked, specifically, Mastin to explain himself. He should KNOW better than to ask it of Mastin--he's familiar with the easily-self-destructing Mastin and a question like that is trying to provoke Mastin.

Additionally, this was also one of Lat's strongest scum-reads on Wicked, because Lat thought, paraphrased, "town wouldn't be this passive aggressive. Town response would be, 'wait, hold on, why do you think I'm scum'. Town would be naturally suspicious, but Wicked just accepts it. He waited until it was acceptable to attack us."

Which holds mostly true. Wicked basically was saying he thinks (no, make that knows) we're town and wanted to get rid of us.

It is very carefully constructed in the way most meant to provoke a reaction, a reaction which Wicked can twisted and bend to his will. That kind of artificial construction can only come from scum.

Contrast with Lobster's version, soon after.

can you explain this?

This was done naturally, from a town mind-set and no manipulation was involved. It was a pure thought, unfiltered, undistorted, uncensored, direct from Lobster's mind. Wicked's wasn't, as clearly demonstrated above.

If you were a townie in his position, how would you have phrased his question?

This comes off as scum defending town, while weakly attacking town. (Strong scum motive, in that it furthers an attack on town and creates an intentional red herring with a pro-town player.) It's also artificially constructed and gives very little actual content.

Before I elaborate on and defend my point against you, can you please explain what the purpose of your vote for el simo was, originally?

Pure scum Intention, pure scum Motive. Wicked leaves open a huge door, and subtly traps ConfidAnon into being forced on the offensive-defense, by forcing ConfidAnon to make the first move, rather than taking the initiative. This permits Wicked to compile evidence more easily against ConfidAnon and better attack him as a mislynch.

I never said that joking was a scumtell. Did you actually think I was saying that? LobsterCatapult explained this point pretty well and I can't think of a better way to elaborate on it, so I'll just quote it for you since you ignored it anyway:

This displays a scum tone--it is carefully constructed and rather artificial ("never said", "actually think", "pretty well", "can't think", "better way", etc.), it contains some blatant buddying to Lobster, and shows a scum intention, once more by furthering a weak offense and buddying to town.

Kid Know Nothing - 3 (YankCane151,

Yonzy

, avasthearties)
ConfidAnon - 3 (

Wickedestjr

, LobsterCatapult, hezlucky)

When you combine these lead two wagons, it comes to being L-1. You expect 1-2 scum to be present. Naturally, it should be one per wagon, and I've bolded the obvious choices which stand out from each of them.

I'm not a fan of avasthearties play so far.

Scum Tone. It's artificially constructed. More than that, Wicked has left a back door to pedal through. ("not a fan".) It also has scum Motive, in that avasthearties is an easy mislynch.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You asked HezLucky the question, then, before HezLucky had responded, I asked you who you suspect. You voted HezLucky and explained your point before HezLucky answered your question. If I'm correct, why did you wait until after I asked about your suspicions before you voted? I might be a little bit confused.

This displays some of the worst back dooring there can be. "might be a little bit confused"? You either are or aren't confused; there's no "might" in it. "correct me", "if I'm correct", "might" and "little". It's is artificially constructed, has a scum tone to it. More than that, it is pursuing a very weak suspect, leaving open another door.

If you're right, then that would explain why they believe Yonzy is my scumbuddy

"if", "that would", "they believe". More leaving room for a back door.

It isn't irrelevant. I questioned Yonzy because he made a post in the RVS that didn't have a random vote. Dizzy never made any posts in the RVS so if I were to question him I would just be asking him why he hasn't been posting. And for all I know, Dizzy would have cast a random vote if he had made a post outside of the RVS.

Once more, this defense of Dizzy reads as blatant defense of his buddy.

Whose ISO did you read instead?

Artificial construction, scum intention via pursuing another possible direction--again, Wicked's leaving open a ton of Doors. Wicked's made pretty much no calls of a player town, and pretty much no hints of it other than possibly Hez. He's essentially been calling everyone a suspect, leaving open any mislynch he were to choose. Speaking of which...

Unvote. Vote: tarsonisocelot.

He goes for yet another easy wagon. (Inside tarsonis's sig she even SAYS she's a VI!) Can't get more scum in your intention than this.

Jumping back a little,

So do you suspect Yonzy and why? Also, what do you consider an overreaction and what does a player overreacting to your vote say about that player's alignment?

This is an artificial scum tone. "So", "do", "and why", "consider", etc. Additionally, it shows scum intention, by prodding KKN. More than that, it shows scum motive, in this case, to defend Yonzy. It contains pretty much no legitimate scumhunting. Put bluntly, it has that distinctive scum mind-set.

I like both YankCane151 and ConfidAnon's reaction to my suspicions of them. Also, I'm no longer interested in arguing with them at this point (I'm aware that I seem to be beating a dead horse and if I continued questioning them I don't think it would get us anywhere).

And suddenly, a reversal of BOTH his main suspects, out of seemingly nowhere. It's a pure scum motive and mind-set, revealing he knows both Yank and CA are town. It's a scum intention, in that he's intentionally trying to get below their radars because they're both becoming somewhat suspicious of him. It's also artificially constructed--it has a lot of backpedalling room, should the need arise. "like", "no longer", "at this point", etc.

So what do you guys think about tarsonisocelot?

Pure scum motive, prodding around to see if he'll have support. I'm willing to bet Wicked didn't have a case on Tarsonis before this, and was looking to see if there might be some interest.

Wicked's essentially been consistently searching the town for the ways to best pull their strings, the ways best to manipulate the situation to his advantage, the ways to most stay out of sight while pushing a scum agenda.

Lobster pointed this out, essentially, but was probably convinced by Wicked's "Oh, crud, they caught on to it" response of

I want to see who agreed with me and could explain why without parroting my reasoning.

Which is itself a horrendously bad excuse, because it could also mean he was trying to get others' to give THEIR reasons so he could parrot THEM. It's also artificially constructed, but despite his best efforts, he let through a slight tint of scum panicking in there, that Lobster was catching on.

He voted KKN in post 76 just because he didn't give a reason for his Yonzy vote. Not really a strong point and it feels like he was going after an easy target at that point.

This is once more leaving many back doors to pedal through. It's artificially constructed, and gives off a scum tone. It also is a very weak explanation of his actions.

Y'know what. I really like the HH bandwagon- even better than my tarsonisocelot vote. Unvote. Vote: Horrifying Hero

This is blatant bandwagonning. It also contains a scum tone, and is carefully constructed. ("y'know", "really like" "even better", etc.) It gives off the paranoid feeling, that Wicked feels he needs to explain himself well to justify the change.

It's also blatant OMGUS. (Scum mind-set.)

-They've stated two suspicions but haven't explained either of them and haven't made any effort to convince others to follow their vote for me.

This is once more a careful artificial construction, scum tone written all over it--"stated", "explained", "effort", "convince", "follow", etc. More than that, the game had just begun by that point, one head was V/LA, and the other head was busy elsewhere. Furthermore, by saying this, he is hoping to weaken the support we would otherwise have gained (scum motive).

-They haven't posted a lot recently. This is especially strange considering they were pretty active the day the game started.

Related to the above, he failed to note (flat-out ignoring, in fact) the detail that we were both preoccupied with other affairs. Additionally, it contains back doors. "a lot", "recently", "especially", "considering", "pretty" "the day".

-They are a miller. That, itself, isn't suspicious, but a miller's allignment can't be determined via cop investigation. So we determine their allignment based solely on their play during the day. Horrifying Hero, however, is giving us hardly anything to work with. They're playing with their cards too close to their chest. That isn't the way that a miller should be playing this game.

Scum inside knowledge--Wicked gave off the impression he knew our claim was false, a deduction he'd only make with a Scum Mind-set and the informed minority's bonus intel on what the setup is (roughly) like.

Additionally, it is artificially constructed--it has a scum tone in it: there's a lot of back door wording, leaving a way out (do we need to point out these words every single time?). It also has a scum Motive, declaring a scum intent: he once more wants to force us to make the move, to put the pressure on us rather than him.

I still suspect tarsonisocelot, but I'm not explaining why until 2-3 more players post in the thread.

Again, this is carefully constructed. Wicked is prodding the town to see what they'll respond to, is looking for the strings to manipulate things. He's leaving open any number of doors for tarsonis, and wants feedback before he makes a conclusion. Scum intention, artificial posting, leaving too many doors open.

When we said after we unclaimed that Wicked was caught scum, we really did mean that Wicked was, indeed, caught scum who was living breathing scum in every post.

Kid Know Nothing - 5 (YankCane151, Yonzy, avasthearties, bobsnox, el simo)
Horrifying Hero - 3 (Lobster Catapult, ConfidAnon, Wickedestjr)
Wickedestjr - 1 (Horrifying Hero)
el simo - 1 (tarsonisocelot)
avasthearties - 1 (Kid Know Nothing)
ConfidAnon - 1 (hezlucky)
Not voting: Dizzle.

One scum on all the main wagons. That is, one scum on KKN (Yonzy), one scum on us (Wicked), and one scum in all of the (1) wagons combined, including "not voting". (Dizzle.)

Then how are we supposed to determine your allignment?

Scum tone--It's artificially constructed. "then", "how", "are", "supposed", "determine", everything in there carefully selected to maximize the impact. It shows a distinct scum motive as well. He wants us to put our cards down, immediately, so that he can counter them and take control.

Answer the question, please.

This is once more scum tone, only stronger. ("please", mainly) It also displays a scum motive--refer to him wanting control.

And how did your fakeclaim tell you all that?

Strong, Stronger, Strongest. Scum tone. It again shows a scum motive, in that he's prodding for the sort of information he can manipulate as scum to get the game best under his control.

You might be interested in taking a look at my previous games.

Scum tone, though not as strong as the previous incidents of it--artificially constructed. Additionally, Wicked is using meta to defend himself. (Meta can be manipulated.)

I don't believe that you are capable of doing this. Try and prove me wrong.

So, have we missed any posts? We're pretty sure we've delivered on the "bleeding scum in every single post" part of our claim for you being scum.

Heck, in this post alone, we've got scumtells. For starters, there's the artificial construction of the post. In addition to that, there's a scum tone in Wicked's taunt. Said taunt is a deliberate scum intention, because it shows a scum motive--trying to provoke a response from us.

As mentioned previously, Wicked is well aware that one of the players in this Hydra is Mastin, and a player who knows Mastin from 2009 provoking Mastin is one of Mastin's greatest scumtells, because back then, Mastin was easily caught in that type of trap.

It also displays a distinctive scum mind-set. What town player wants to provoke another town player?

Okay sure. Sorry for referring to you as him. Let's take a look at your posts in iso:

Post 0: Confirmation post.
Post 1: Response to my questions in the RVS and a random vote.
Post 2: Question directed to HezLucky asking how scum whining is different from town frustration.
Post 3: She asks me why I suspect her, requested that I call her a she, and says that it would be helpful if HH listed the scumtells from a couple of posts.

...and that's it. My summary of each post didn't leave anything out. Anyone notice what this iso is missing? Suspicions. A vote. Any thoughts regarding the game. tarsonisocelot hasn't given us anything to work with and aside from 2-3 questions (there was no follow-up to the only answered question), hasn't done any scumhunting. She's scum.

For starters--the way Wicked built up this case, it looked like it was actually going to be something large. Contrast with our wall here, which is every bit as long as we promised.

He also has that over-apologetic approach to Tarsonis. It gives off the distinct feeling of additionally not being so much a case as "scum-coaching-town". It's also a very weak case against Tarsonis. It additionally is extremely artificial, constructed once more in a strategic fashion.

Furthermore, he shows a scum tone in these posts. He displays a scum intention by going after a weak suspect, and a scum motive by wording things carefully--particularly in his last paragraph. It leaves a lot of back doors, to pedal out of if necessary.

It's also an extremely scum mind-set, by trying to single out her among many others, disregarding others who had contributed equally as little--Yonzy, for instance, had no suspects and did no scumhunting, yet got no more than a single abandoned FoS.

Hmm.... I like ConfidAnon's points against YankCane. ConfidAnon, what do you think of tarsonisocelot after reading my points against him?

This is once more artificially constructed. It contains that back door to escape from, in that it contains those key words to leave open the chance to change his mind. Additionally, it shows pure scum motive, in that he's further prodding ConfidAnon to see what he can use against all three players--CA, tarsonis, AND Yank.

On a side-note,

I do have a bad feeling about Wicked, but I want to wait a few RL days before deciding if that's actually merited by the tone/content of their posts or whether it's a knee-jerk reaction to them voting for me while saying "I have a case and I won't tell you!".
Maybe yonzy, the "Is it still RVS? I didn't notice! vote:random" thing was odd.

Everyone should be ashamed. Tarsonis does better scumhunting in this post than most people have done for the entire game.

I realize that we have some Derpy Hooves types like Yonzy here that are more of a threat to themselves than friendship, but a few others are getting by much more slyly.

Vote Kid Know Nothing

He has done nothing useful in this game but attempt to trap people with shadows of overaggression when its actually pro-town to ask questions about why votes exist. He also is passively attacking punching bag Derpy, which is far more mallicious than voting for them. It feels like egging a wagon on, when that would best be served by actually voting there. Now I know everyone is going to be all like "But Rainbow, he already is voting for somepony!". Well yeah he is, but he is doing nothing to further that case, just sitting on it.

This is what instantly convinced us that Rainbowdash was the third scum. For starters, Rainbow defends Yonzy as being idiot-town. Furthermore, the vote for KKN is for reasons which can better be applied to Wicked. (See also: our massive case so far against Wicked.) Everything said against KKN here, in fact, looks like it could (and very well might have been!) be on Wicked. (Who knows, maybe it was and Rainbow switched names at the last second to decide not to bus.)

You are sitting on a nonexistant case. What you are pushing them for is that they reacted like scum would react to somepony throwing out a vote without any reasoning by voting for them AND asking questions about a baseless vote. If that is the scum reaction, what the hay is the town reaction? Blindly bandwagoning you? Ignoring the vote? Asking questions but NOT voting you?

Somepony must have been kicked in the head as a filly. Or is a threat to the magic of friendship.

Wicked is not the only one in this game who displays an artificial tone. Rainbowdash's post here definitely contained it. It gives a "scum-coaching-town" feel to it. It also feels weak.

Like give me a paragraph on why someone in this game is mafia. In their next post. Or suffer wrath.

Scum tone. Mastin says that he believes it's the usage of full stops, but isn't sure. He just knows it's a scum tone.

So you are supposed to call somepony out on it WITHOUT a vote to be town and WITH a vote to be scummy?

It appears that in the absence of Wicked, Rainbow has stolen all of his scumtells. This has scum tone, it's artificial, it now has a clear back door, it has a scum motive in that it's prodding town and looking for things to use against them.

He is. I have seen his type enough to know that regardless of everything he is going to come off as Derpy Hooves and get lynched or vig shot in most games. You just can't put much trust in them, much like that one time we sent that one pony that couldn't tell directions to go help the birds migrate, learned that one the hard way. Anyways, he should be replaced since he hasnt even posted for almost five days.

Contradiction--Rainbow had earlier implied a town-view on Yonzy. This makes it clearly null. Also employs that back door.

It's like the scum have a constant rear view mirror and have their hands on the gear, ready to shift into reverse without so much as a moment's hesitation.


We got so sick of how scummy this post was (post 162, on page seven) that we decided to skip it for later, as it was just that bad for us. We never came back, due to time restraints, but it is a rather horrible post.

They have purpose if utilized corretly, but I really don't think this falls under that category since from what you are trying to argue. Your first vote wasn't scummy at all either, it wasnt a good time and place for it, but that wasnt something that caused any concern, it was the follow up of it.

Screw leaving a back door. Rainbow is ramming through it in full reverse--this goes beyond leaving open a chance to backpedal; it IS backpedaling.

What are the town reactions? The scum reactions? Remember what I said about how everpony is different in their reactions and mindset? I sincerely doubt that this will manage to catch scum at a greater rate then scum exist in the game.

Scum motive--prodding town once more. Additionally, more back door wording.

Is this really one of those "I wouldnt have done this if I was scum" comments?

Scum tone, via the back door.

@Hez/Yank - Ok, stop arguing now. Everpony gets the points and can decide for ourselves. Weigh in on other things.

1: Scumslip. It reveals that both Hez and Yank are town. 2: Artificial scum tone, in the way that Rainbow is asking them to contribute elsewhere, in that it has a scum motive. (See also: prodding town to see what can be used against them.)

Kid Know Nothing - 5 (Yonzy, avasthearties, bobsnox, el simo, Rainbowdash)
Horrifying Hero - 2 (Lobster Catapult, Wickedestjr)
YankCane151 - 2 (ConfidAnon, HezLucky)

One to two scum on the KKN mislynch. Better yet, I think it's at the beginning and end of the wagon. This is further backed up by the fact that el simo is town, and bob and avas are both strong town-reads of ours.

There's also one scum in the (2) voters, which can only be Wicked. This clears Lobster (obviously), Hez (obv-town anyway), and ConfidAnon. (Less obvious, but still present.)

Who should I vote?

There's nothing wrong with this.

Wicked, naturally.

If that's true why is there a wagon on KKN?

...Until you combine it with this.

Vifam confirmed that Vifam's scum with Wicked due to this.

Town response to being told who to vote: blindly following and voting the first name called out. (I called out Wicked.)
Scum response to being told to vote someone who is town: voting the person who is town.
Scum response to being told to vote for scumbuddy:

To question the logic behind the choice. Which Vifam just did. It's one of the strongest scumtells applicable to this situation. Vifam essentially trapped himself with one of his first posts, without realizing the damage he was doing.

To paraphrase what went on, Vifam: "Hi. Tell me who to vote." "Wicked." "On second thought, I take it back--not voting."

Wake me when it gets here. You have been holding out on a case of him since the first page.

Mastin says Scum tone. He can't explain it. (Gut.)

Don't be a cunt.

Pointless insult, deflection, provocation.

Okay

FOS:HezLucky/b]

I skimmed through the thread, I think I might open up on a case of him being scum.

Refuses to take a stronger stance, and scumslips with his back-door wording by revealing he knows Hez is town. Gives a FoS (suspicion) on Hez, implying he thinks Hez is scum. Yet only "might open up on a case of him being scum", which says that he isn't that suspicious of Hez at the moment, not enough to warrant an FoS. (Generally, if you have an FoS, you're the one making/quoting the case, not waiting for it!)

Additionally, it shows lack of initiative and willingness to sheep a case, no matter how weak it might be, and not put any original thought into Vifam's suspicion of Hez. This accusation is augmented by the next post,

Yank pretty much nailed it.

But there's more to Vifam's post than just that.

I'm going to take my scumhunting elsewhere.

So, instead of trying to focus on a target, Vifam chooses to branch out and now follow through on the vote, instead opting to look elsewhere. This is a pure scum mind-set, as there's no town reason to not focus on your primary suspect. It shows a scum motive, in that Vifam is looking for other potential mislynch targets to pin besides Hez.

Holy shit.

This game just got emotional.

This was basically fluff, meant to be passed off as an attempt to defuse the situation. Only, it didn't. It added nothing.

Seriously

No fighting, yes friendship. This WILL work itself out. I can bring up some great stories about how competition can get in the way of friendships if you want.

It's like Rainbow is looking at his scum partners and singing, "anything you can do, I can do betteeeeeeeer, anything you can do, I can do too!" Mastin says This also has a scum tone to it, but he doesn't want to waste time explaining it so will allow it to be called gut.

Lynch pool today is KKN and Tarin (could also be swayed to el simo). One we get one of those flips we can move on from there. Right now this is going to become a black hole that will draw everypony into it by dominating discussion. Hez is being AMAZINGLY stubborn to the point where he is threatening anypony who attack him, even moreso then Yank who needs to drop his case at this point and move on.

Rainbow is lining up mislynches here. All three of KKN, Tarsonis, and el simo are town for various (but quite obvious when you look for them) reasons.

His attempt to defuse the situation reads as instead trying to actually subtly encourage it. Like trying to fight a Forest Fire by dumping gasoline on it--it might initially appear to be dousing the flames and calming things down, but it's actually fueling the flames further.

It has an overall scum tone to it, in the way it was worded came from a scum mind-set encouraging the fighting.

Because he is probably town, and you are probably town, and if everypony would realize that the best way to deal with a situation like this one is to diffuse it, use a lynch flip then followed by the night actions to learn more about the ponies in the arguement its better. You are not allowed to argue "more stubborn" either as a reason to carry on an attack, this isnt eye for and eye and hoof for a hoof.

This is a minor backtrack, in that Rainbow is no longer showing the same level of confidence in both being town. Instead of strongly implying it, Rainbow's now only saying it kinda weak, by comparison. It's also false, in that a lynch elsewhere would not shed any light on either combatant's alignment. (Well, it would--Rainbow/Vifam as scum would reveal them both to be town. Other than that...)

Lynch pool is two because those are my two strongest scum reads. Their flips catch scum and/or clear up reads on neutral players while cementing stronger reads.

This is also false, and blatantly trying to control the town. The second part is self-evident. As for the names, the players who reveal the most are not KKN (who was obv-town via the quick L-2 wagon), Tarsonis (who has connections to literally nobody), or even el simo (...less so, admittedly, in that el simo's town-flip somewhat-condemns Wicked, but not that much). The players revealing the most are Wicked and Yonzy/Vifam.

Also please tell me you are kidding with Anon scum. I mean, if thats serious you are making Derpy look like Twilight.

Scum tone: Degrading the quality of another's scumhunting, while casting weak suspicion on them shows a very strong scum motive, with a good scum intention as well.

@bob - There we go. Voice of reason. While HH is more of an unpredicatble entity in this game, they arent a great lynch. The continual ignoring of the game is a slight tell, especially given that mastin is known for being one of the more overboard posters and Lat is definantly competent. Just would rather go in a different direction

Classic examples of both fencesitting and buddying. It displays a strong scum motive, as well as a slight scum tone--comes across as being artificially constructed.

I see Hez has come around. Good. We can start to move on.

Scum tone, which reveals the scum intention behind this.

What purpose was this going to serve? Do you actually think he is scum? Or are you actually trying to apply some pressure on him?

If it's the former, what makes you think he is scum over KKN?

If it's the latter, what makes you think he will hurry if he's been holding out for this long?


I don't see what made you want to hop on this joke, since I've read HH's ISO, and he's doing some MAJOR foreshadowing, so I think it's best to just wait. If his proof is inconclusive, this vote would be justified. But at the moment a HH lynch seems rushed and not very well thought out.

Artificial construction: Scum tone--Back Door Wording--Vifam is leaving a LOT of room to backpedal out of here if need be. Scum intention--this prod declares things that only can come from scum wanting to foreshadow their own future votes.

Scum motive, too, in that prodding Bob like this simultaneously tests grounds for an HH mislynch and a Bob mislynch, to see if either can get support. (Which itself is a scumslip revealing Bob to be town.)

There is probably scum on the KKN wagon, we should put some of our thought there.

...Yet Vifam was ON the KKN wagon for a significant amount of time.

His name is included. Vifam refuses to state WHO the scum are in there, instead referring to the general, "there has to be scum in there". Yet Vifam refuses to state why.
(LINK ABOVE INTENTIONALLY BROKEN DUE TO QUICKTOPIC'S ANNOYING FOUR-LINK LIMIT; THIS WILL NEED FIXING.)
And I think I know why. His buddy is in there. He could safely say, "excluding me", and focus on the other four--but he doesn't, because he knows it'll cast more suspicion onto Rainbowdash. Instead of focusing on these four, his vote's outside the wagon, on Hez.

His ISO.

It continually shifts viewpoint not to go along with the pacing of the game but instead to respond to point that are made for and against people being scum, without showing any real motivation to move towards or away from certain players baselessly which tend to be indicative of scum. The only way I start to secondguess this read is with a Tarin-scum flip, even then though, he is a leaning town player.

This seems weaker than Rainbow's defense of him. In other words, it seems like Rainbow shouldn't have this strong of a town-read for that little. (Scum mind-set.) Which makes me think Rainbow scumslipped. Additionally, it contains an artificial construction, leaving multiple back doors to trail through if need be. Scum intention, too, by leaving open the wagon options.

I want to diffuse this because its massively counter intuitive and if you guys really are both town, exactly what scum want to create and will thrive off of in these games, which is why we are going to stop it. Bob either realizes this, or doesnt realize it and still has come to the correct path of action.

This comes from a scum mind-set, in that town don't think of a townVtown situation in this way. It reeks of scum trying to get town-cred for stopping the situation being described. It has an extremely forced, artificial feel to it.

Additionally, the bob part contains back door wording, in that Rainbow is leaving open a backtrack on bob being a voice of reason to use if a chance to take advantage of bob presents itself (doubling as a scum intention).


This is where we stopped, sorry, due to time constraints. Our apologies for taking so long and only covering half of the game. But we do have more to add than this.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2332047
(ALSO BROKEN DUE TO QUICKTOPIC'S ANNOYING FOUR LINK LIMIT) This is a link to a game Lat provided, where a town IC, netopolis, used the RQS to nail all the scum and get decently-founded town reads on EVERY town player, simply through the use of analyzing how each player answered the rqs questions.

We bring this up, because you can compare and contrast Netopolis's use of productive RQS (Which is apparently pro-town), with Wicked's use of RQS which was phony and did little to nothing to help the game. It's a good comparison of what a productive townie would do versus scum pretending to be productive.

Wicked's also scum for not having claimed--You're at L-1. Why the heck wouldn't you claim as town?
As scum, there's clear motivation--talk your way out of a lynch, and you can save claiming for later. You don't have to lock a claim in.
As town, there's no motivation.


Miscellaneous Extras:
These are things which'd be worked into the case at the appropriate spots if we had more time. Since we don't, they're here at the end.

(On Wicked's 45) Simo: I'M A BIG SCARY DRAGON. RAAAAAAAH! (I AM SO ANGRY AT BEING TOWN EVERY GAME.)

Real Simo: (I've been town every game on this account, it's getting fustrating.)

Wicked: WHAT? THERES NO IMPLICATION? BLAHG!

Real Wicked: (I don't see how saying he's been town in all of his other games is meant to imply he's town this game.)

-Basically, Simo says he's been town in every game on that account IS implying he's town, because this game is a part of all the games as a whole and is on the account mentioned.
-The Joke comment is bull shit. Some of us have a sense of humor.
-How would CA's vote feel off? When he was just trying to get the game started?
(On Wicked's 47) This is blatantly putting words into Yank's freaked Yanky mouth.
(On Wicked's 49) Uh no Wicked, no it doesn't. His question was a separate entity.
(On Wicked's 60)
-This is where the leap of logic is: Wicked is assuming Yank is a shady Disney villain following CA's every step.

But instead. Yank's a beautiful princess who saw a rabbit in distress (Simo), who was inflicted by a severe case of confusion. Then Yank, leaned forward and answered Simo's question.

CA is actually irrelevant to the picture.

-THIS IS A SCUM CLAIM. "...and my suspicion of you has strengthened."

Town doesn't post like this. You don't talk WITH your suspects, unless you WANT them to convince you they're town.

Wicked isn't posting about Yank per say, in words he is, but his intention is different. He's creating a gradual logical time line for his suspicions and thoughts to flow so he appears consistent and pro-town.

(On Wicked's 80) "What originally made you think that the RVS was over?"

Wicked keeps pushing the same point. Yank did an okay job explaining it.
(On Wicked's 115) Justifying your vote in this manner is scummy. We don't know how to articulate it this correctly. He fails to explain the Tars vote. Why? 'Cuz, he wanted momentum to be brought up on tars instead.

If he was a townie, well, Lat actually has a link to what a townie would do; we'll post it later.
(On Wicked's 130) Mastin: The only way to describe it other than that is to quote every post Wicked's done and explain exactly why he's scum. And I do mean it--I can quote every single post he's done and [point out all the scumminess within.] He has literally zero town posts this game."

"I don't believe that you are capable of doing this. Try and prove me wrong."
The ultimate scumclaim, challenging us. He denies our ability, not the truth that he isn't scum. Town wants truth. Scum want logic debates.

We realize it's long, sorry. But we meant it when we said Wicked was living, breathing scum in every single post that he made and that the scumteam was quite obvious. We'll work on a summary. But basically,
-Wicked's posts are extremely artificial, giving off the feeling of being carefully constructed rather than naturally posted. They show consistent scum Tone, consistently show a scum mind-set, have a constant scum Motive, and declare themselves as a scum intention.

-Wicked-Yonzy/Vifam/Rainbow makes a perfect scumteam with no flaws in it. They're also scum by process of elimination, as we have town-reads on the rest of the playerlist we can explain as well. There's lots condemning for them, and not much in favor.

[Horrifying Hero]

Whoops. Forgot to remove the reminders about the links being broken. We put the reminders there so that when we posted, we would remember to fix the links and delete those messages. The links should work if we fixed them correctly, so ignore those messages.

Anyway, we haven't been paying attention to anything in the thread since, oh, page twelve or so. We'll be re-reading to see if there's anything we need to respond to. But We're not moving our vote off of Wicked.

[Horrifying Hero]

Maybe on Day Two, we can resume our case. Page 10, 234 is where we stopped. If you guys mislynch today, we can see about continuing on from there and showing you exactly why we believe the scumteam is Wicked, Yonzy/Vifam, and Rainbowdash.

(Oh, and by the way, Lat wants everyone to know he hates everyone on the playerlist.)

After the last few pages I really don't see Wicked-scum without all of bob, Hez, CA and maybe even Tarin being town.

Except, they all are.

Wickedestjr - 5 (Horrifying Hero, tarsonisocelot, HezLucky, LobsterCatapult, ConfidAnon)
avasthearties - 5 (Kid Know Nothing, bobsnox, wickedestjr, Rainbowdash, YankCane)
bobsnox - 2 (avasthearties, el simo)
HezLucky - 1 (Vifam)

The avas wagon here is seriously scum driven. Additionally, the Wicked wagon DOESN'T look scum-driven. There's us, there's tarsonis (obv-town), there's Hez (same), there's Lobster/Friend (also obv-town), and ConfidAnon (less obvious, but still good). Who in there is scum?

...Anyone?

...Yeah, we don't see any names in there, either. And if Wicked got to L-2 with no scum voting him, that makes him what?
Oh, yeah. Confirmed scum.

This leaves one scum on the useless votes, give or take. (Since not all three scum would be on the avas wagon.)

Basically, the speed at which the Avast counterwagon has grown next to Wicked has me worried as fuck. Especially given that I can see Wicked as scum with EVERY SINGLE PERSON who just helpedt he Avast wagon grow. Avast town read now for this reason.

/Valid.

This is up to 20.

[Horrifying Hero]

Town-reads will come when we're fully caught up.

[Horrifying Hero]

Rainbow is playing the fucking mediator.

/Valid.
And a huge piece of our wall, if you didn't notice. We stopped on 10, but if we continued, so too would the trend have.

avasthearties - 6 (Kid Know Nothing, bobsnox, Wickedestjr, YankCane151, ConfidAnon, Rainbowdash)
Rainbowdash - 2 (LobsterCatapult, HezLucky)
Wickedestjr - 2 (Horrifying Hero, avasthearties)

Oh, look. The Wicked wagon has fallen apart. And the avas quickwagon remains, but not for long.

Gee, we wonder why?

(Answer: because avas is a mislynch. The quickwagon on avas is fail. The slower, gradual wagon on Wicked is win, because it's a scum-lynch. Mastin would highly encourage you all to check out Mini 1180, where this happened two days IN A ROW--the WormyKrew successful scum lynch had multiple wagons throughout the day which fell apart gradually, replaced by quick wagons on town players which fell apart equally as easily. It then happened, only WORSE on day two. Multiple times people were quickwagoned to L-2 or even L-1, and their wagons fell apart, compared to the gradual Alduskkel lynch, which was on scum.

It's natural versus artificial, slow and gradual versus quick and rushed. Natural wagons build with time and collapse when scum find an artificial wagon to go up quickly, on town.)

Proof of this phenomenon:
One!
Two!
Three!
Four!

You seriously think a wagon on scum forms that quickly?

No. Bob's town. Avas is town.


Admittedly, we're skimming the walls a bit, but we're caught up enough overall.

[Horrifying Hero]

But I guess I

should

claim, even though I really didn't want to. I'm a cop. Nice work guys.

So...let me get this straight:

You, a "cop", sees a 'Miller' claim, and...

...You're distrustful of it?!?

HELL NO.

Confirm Vote.

~Lat.

[Horrifying Hero]

1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim.

Really, now? Then mind explaining this?

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim

, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you.

If anything, this was setting up something like a tracker claim, since that'd give you a reason to doubt a miller being in the game.

But a cop?

NO FUCKING WAY DOES A COP POST THAT.

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Millers are a role MADE to be in setups with a Cop. YOU DON'T FUCKING IGNORE/DISTRUST A MILLER CLAIM AS A COP.

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Unvote, VOTE: Rainbowdash.

THAT'S what we think of the Rainbowdash vote. Rdash is playing the mediator again, but this time, scumslipped by revealing that he has a good idea of what the scum power in this game is.

We'll be explaining shortly, of course.

But we are NOT lynching bob OR avas. They are both mislynches. It's either Rainbowdash, Vifam, or Wicked. And if you STILL can't see Wicked as obv-scum (he is, blatantly obv-scum), then we'll lynch one of the other two who are blatantly connected to him. Bob and avas are not connected to Wicked. (Actually, avas is--in the sense that Wicked is pushing for an avas mislynch.) Rainbowdash and Vifam are.

Seriously. Wicked used his scum skills to deduce there was no cop in this game. Think about it--nobody treated the miller claim like a cop would. Everyone ignored it. It doesn't take much for scum to put two-and-two together and figure out that there's not a cop. Classic scum deduction.

[Horrifying Hero]

First off--Wicked fails to address multiple points from our wall. We know it's long, but you NEED to read it, and see just how much of it he fails to respond to. He selects only the arguments he feels he can best counter.

I think it is strange to say that all the players on my bandwagon are town. Are you unfamiliar with bussing

HE ISN'T EVEN DENYING THAT HE IS SCUM!

To elaborate on this, note how he does not deny that it's true that he's scum. He simply tries to say that the wagon is not all town. In fact, he even CALLS it bussing. SCUM CAN'T BUS TOWN, NOW, CAN THEY? It's another scumclaim from Wicked. He's furthermore trying to deflect attention onto the wagon, to get suspicion there rather than on him. It's a subtle but quite effective OMGUS.

*I wasn't interested in the miller discussion. - So what? I don't believe that there was anything important to learn from a discussion regarding the claim. Theory discussions

But you didn't just show disinterest in the miller discussion. YOU ACTIVELY TRIED TO SHUT IT DOWN. That made it go from something which might not produce anything useful, to something which DEFINITELY didn't produce anything useful. YOU DENIED THE TOWN A POSSIBLE DISCUSSION PATH.

The questions I asked in RQS. - I've already addressed this point (thanks for ignoring me). I'll restate my previous defense: these questions weren't meant to get us out of RVS. They also weren't meant to distract from the game. You'll notice that I still random voted.

THEN WHAT THE EFF WERE THEY MEANT FOR?!?

Only very slightly. One word, in fact.

But it's true. Random Questions as scum are there for fluff. Random Questions as town are there to get information. As previously mentioned in our case, there was literally nothing productive in them--you learned nothing from them. You gained zero information from forcing others to answer. You produced, nothing out of these questions.

They were fluff. Meant to pad out your posts. They served no purpose. Other than to make you artificially look better. There's no town motive behind that.

This is just the way I speak.

Mastin disagrees. Strongly. Caps Lock Rage, strongly. He'll elaborate when he's calmed down.

I find it strange that this point is being used against me when other players (for example: avasthearties) have been pretty wishy-washy.

This is blatant deflection. Not only onto another. But trying to connect two completely separate subjects. Wicked's scumtells have virtually nothing to do with being wishy-washy. Wicked's done a lot of scumtells having to do with backtracking. The two are not the same.

[Horrifying Hero]

Also - HH's wall feels like taking every post and interpretting it with WickedScum in mind - confirmation bias.

We merely accepted Wicked's challenge. When we said, we saw scum in every one of his posts...

...We really did mean, we saw scum, in every single one of his posts.

It's not confirmation bias. It's that Wicked really is that obvious scum.

I never doubted the miller claim. I had a slight reason to, but I ultimately wrote it off as a null tell. And when I said I ignored the claim that didn't mean I was ignoring the fact that he would show up as guilty if investigated but that I was ignoring it when trying to determine his allignment.

THIS IS NOT HOW A COP REACTS TO A MILLER CLAIM. A cop when faced with a Miller claim--while not necessarily instantly accepting it--will NEVER show instant doubt. Like you did. We've conclusively shown how you were hinting in your posts to doubting the claim. You denying that you doubted it is quite frankly blatant backtracking.

And so is this lame excuse about ignoring it. YOU ACTIVELY TRIED TO GET DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE. That goes BEYOND ignoring it. YOU SHUT DOWN THE DISCUSSION BEFORE IT COULD BEGIN. More than that, your replacement for the potentially-productive miller discussion?

Your RQs. WHICH YOU MADE NOTHING OF. YOU GOT NO READS FROM THE ANSWERS TO YOUR RQs. Mastin and Lat are both in full agreement about just how bad that is. Scum use the RQS as fluff to look better. Town use the RQS to scumhunt and nail scum from their answers. YOU PUSHED PEOPLE TO ANSWER SOMETHING WHICH YOU GOT NOTHING OUT OF.

This goes WAY beyond the level of ignoring. You. Flat-out. Didn't. Want. ANYONE. Talking. About. The. Miller. Claim.

There would obviously be scum on my bandwagon if I was town so the purpose of my question was to consider the case where I am scum.

WHAT PRO-TOWN PLAYER THINKS OF SCENARIOS WHERE THEY ARE SCUM?!? You were flat-out giving a scenario where you were scum, and saying "this wagon wouldn't all be town". BUT IF YOU WERE TOWN YOU WOULD KNOW YOU WEREN'T SCUM AND WOULDN'T HAVE TO ARGUE FOR A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WHERE YOU WERE. The ONLY reason to argue for a hypothetical you-are-scum scenario, is if you ARE scum.

You'll notice I say things like "I doubt" or "I don't really think". That's because I'm giving my opinion! I'm not telling everyone else to believe the same thing.

But you said "we" at the end. "we". Implying the whole town. WORD CHOICES ARE KEY. You subtly planted the idea in the head of the town, that "Miller Discussion-->bad". It was something most people probably didn't even consciously think about. But it's there. Word-choice is a bit of a specialty of Mastin. He's a WRITER. (And a Poet.) He knows what words manipulate the human mind. He recognizes speech patterns which give an impact on others, he knows what words manipulate the crowds. He was VERY adament in the Quicktopic to just how scummy your redirection was. You actively forced discussion off of the Miller claim.

Not only by stating that you didn't think it was necessary.

But also by pushing something else onto other people's minds.

The one-two combination punch left the miller claim almost completely gone in the eyes of others, as they were forced to focus on your RQs which came out to absolutely nothing.

I was planning to look back at the answers later to look for inconsistencies and get a better idea of their allignment. By explaining this, I'm kind of defeating the purpose but I asked the questions to see if they were scumhunting the way they said they would and if they seemed interested in the game or not (this would be a slight indicator that their allignment was the allignment they said that they prefer to play as). I wasn't planning to look back at this until around day 3, but now I only have the information from the first day to use.

THIS. IS. B.S! The information's there. In front of you. It's on a phase of the game long-since past. There's nothing to gain by WAITING on doing this information. There's nothing to gain by delaying a look.

As town, you'd have been doing this the whole time. Mental note or a written note, some reminder of this. You'd be keeping the answers in your mind and trying to get information out of them, actively. You'd have them in your head the whole time.

Remember the link we gave at the end of our wall? It links to a game where a pro-town player uses the RQs he posed to help nail the entire scumteam. Looking at his ISO, you can see that he pressured people based off of their answers to get them elaborating, and got key information from responses.

THAT is how town does the RQS.

Scum, on the other hand, leave it be. They learn nothing from the RQS. They might later bring it up. But they'd do so only later, as part of a grander case against someone--which fits perfectly with your "day three or so" view. YOU'RE LITERALLY DOING THE THING SCUM ARE MOST LIKELY TO DO!

Additionally, this also reveals to us that you're fakeclaiming cop. Because as a cop, you'd 1: be less likely to live to see Day Three (SIGNIFICANTLY less likely--Hoopla once did a calculation, and the odds came out to below 25% in a Mini, if Mastin's memory on this subject is correct) and therefore be unlikely to ever come to the light of day, AND 2: It reveals that Wicked would have no cop results, because if Wicked had cop information, he'd obviously not be in need of the RQs. He'd have gained outside information which trumped all inside information gained. His failure to realize this means that he wasn't looking at things from the viewpoint of a cop,

BUT THE VIEWPOINT OF SCUM.

I don't like the Rainbowdash bandwagon and we shouldn't lynch Vifam because he's not going to be around to claim.

Oh, look. Wicked's defending his scumbuddies!

I am a vig, which is why I was happy with a blind Vifam lynch after the cop claim since if both were real there is at most one other town power out there.

Alright. We can see a cop in the game. We can see a vig in the game. BUT NOT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. Vigs and cops are redundant. If this was a weakened vig (limited shot, not shooting every night), I can see it. BUT A FULL VIG AND A COP SERVE THE SAME PURPOSE IN A GAME.

This confirms one of Wicked/Rainbow as scum.

Unvote, Vote: Vifam

.

But for the record, neither one of us likes this nearly as much as Wicked.

[Horrifying Hero]

Oh, and also for the record:

If Rainbowdash fails to prove he's a vig, lynch him.

Otherwise, we'll be pushing Wicked to be lynched, because quite frankly, innocent or guilty, we'll not believe any result from him.

[Horrifying Hero]

VOTE: Wickedestjr.

[Horrifying Hero]

though, i must say, im REALLY surprised they lynched

rainbow over wicked

.

wicked needs to claim results.

HH. any new reasons why ur voting wicked?

Funny, you seem to have answered your own question.

Especially when paired with:

cop wasnt rbed....

And finally,

Vote: avasthearties

According to my investigation, ConfidAnon is town.

This is the largest piece of bullshit I've ever seen. Wicked's main suspicion was on avas yesterday.

We should lynch avasthearties. It has become very very obvious that he is scum and I can't believe nobody agrees with me. If he was town he wouldn't be lurking right now and he would be trying to help us decide who the best lynch is. Notice that his current vote is one that was intended to save himself.

WHY THE FUCK DID HE NOT INVESTIGATE AVAS?!?

ConfidAnon was last mentioned by Wicked here. THAT INVESTIGATION MAKES NO SENSE FROM TOWN.

~Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

Mhm. Accord to that scale you suspected Simo more. But, I'm assuming Confid moved ahead in the ranks.

Now, I've got to know. WHY? Why did Confid become your scumspect #2?

ESPECIALLY after the Vifam lynch?

Bleh.

[Horrifying Hero]

-Read MT's sig. (It says Lateralus22)

[Horrifying Hero]

Why Wicked's Still Obvious Scum

First, A Quick Recap on His Miller Reaction.

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you.

HH is correct that I don't care about the miller claim. I've explained why that doesn't make me suspicious and I've explained why I don't care about the miller claim.

I was never distrustful of the miller claim. I ignored the claim completely.

He doubts the claim, doesn't care about it, and states no distrust at the same time. He never ignored the claim completely either, in fact, it was a part of his earlier case against us.

All of these opinions can not co-exist. If you have never been distrustful of something, then you can not imply doubt (I have a

reason

to doubt it is one of Wicked's clever wordings to get out of saying things directly). If you don't care about something, then you can't use it in a case against someone.

Put bluntly,

he's a liar

Moving On. ConfidAnon was one of the

worst

possible investigation targets in the history of the universe. And Wicked had the worst reasons as well.

From memory, ConfidAnon was a lot less active when we were trying to figure out who to lynch. He said this was because of laziness so that means he could've posted, but chose not to. This shows that he didn't really care about who got lynched, imo.

He used a cop investigation on someone… because they're a lurker. This is weak,

shallow

reasoning.

Notice how this line of thought takes zero effort to come up. Notice how Wicked didn't bothered to go back and reread Vifam for connections. Notice how he didn't even READ Confid's play throughout the whole game and based his suspicion on that. He didn't even take Confid's character into question, Confid ALWAYS plays like a cheeky lazy flaker lurker.

THIS IS NOT HOW COMPETENT COPS INVESTIGATE!

Townies actually READ players motives throughout their whole play, they don't condemn them for an instance of laziness without at least looking at their character or their circumstances. And Lo' behold Confid's circumstances make him an even worse investigation. Hint, Hint, if Confid Scum didn't give a damn about who got lynched, then he wouldn't have put Vifam-Scum as a higher priority as opposed to, from your Pov either a COP or a VIG lynch that Confid scum could EASILY get. But the important thing is, Wicked never considered these scenarios as evidenced by his lack of actual thorough analysis of Confid's play.

I know several of you don't believe my claim, but lynching me is a stupid move. You guys have at least two more lynches to get rid of me (assuming there isn't a four person scum group in this game), so it doesn't make sense that you would get rid of me this early. There are most likely two mafia remaining in the game. Even if I was mafia, there is likely another mafia member out there who you can try to lynch. Also, if I'm mafia, there's nothing wrong with keeping me alive a few more days as long as you lynch me at some point- so it doesn't really matter when you lynch me. If I'm cop (which I am), lynching me a few days later is better because it means I get more investigations- so it does matter when I'm lynched. Why even take the risk of me being a cop? Keep me alive and I'll either be nightkilled or lynched after giving you 2-4 investigations to work with when I flip town.

@HezLucky- Your suspicion of me, IIRC, is because our reads differ. Why use a point against me that isn't valid until we've seen more flips? Furthermore, you've both acknowledged the fact that your reads aren't always very accurate and the fact that I have, in the past, been capable of nailing entire scumteams. So why does differing reads mean differing allignments, in this case? This point against me would only be valid if the players you suspect (and I believed to be town) were actually mafia. However, you earlier expressed a lack of confidence in your reads."

You're as transparent as fucking air you know that?

This 100% Manipulative propaganda. Wicked's play has degenerated to the point where he isn't even TRYING to scum hunt anymore. Paragraph One is preposterous. First off, We don't negotiate with scum. Next, what kind of Cop thinks like this? Wicked's agenda is purely based on upping his survival time for the sake of investigations. The problem here is that in Wicked's agenda, His Survival > REAL Scum Hunting. Look! Instead of persuading of us his townie motivations he outright says "lol since im scum you shouldn't lynch me because i haz investigation!"

His argument for survival is based on chance. This is what we call WIFOM. And this is very important! The argument for not lynching Wicked isn't even based on any type of analysis or reading his motivations. It's based on fucking WIFOM. Wicked-Scum isn't even arguing about how could bring scum to justice to prove his innocence, he isn't stating that he will give thorough reads like a REAL townie should do. He just wants to fake more investigations to live longer.

Now, paragraph two is more scummy gold. Appeal to fuckin authority when he has none. Discrediting Hez's reads based on his uncertainty. These are tied together into one very important fact.

Hez was correct about Vifam-Scum while Wicked wasn't even trying to read him. And Wicked STILL asserts that Hez should be lacking confidence and turn to WICKED'S

expert

authority. Wicked is continuing to manipulate Hez by

ignoring

this very, very crucial fact.

Wicked need to die

today.

We're fine with waiting out the day to find his buddy, but he dies today.

[Horrifying Hero]

Our vote is precisely where it needs to be.

[Horrifying Hero]

Heck, Mastin I know that you've got it stuck in your mind that Avas is town and that Wicked is scum but I really rather not have a repeat of Mini 1180, it's the very last thing I want to occur. So please for the love of god join us on either the Lobster or Avas lynch and have Wicked investigate one more time tonight. If somehow we're wrong on Lobster and Avas and they flip town (Which I'm close enough to guaranteeing that won't) then you can deal with Wicked tomorrow after he's outed his report.

If it were just me?

Sure, why not? My morale's at pretty much one of the lowest points in my career; it wouldn't take much to convince me. (And reminding me of failures strikes a nerve. )

But it's not just me.

We're a hydra, too. We both share many of the same opinions as well. And among them, is the firm belief that Wicked is scum. (Though, admittedly, Avas is one of the candidates for second-scum. We're not convinced on anyone being second-scum enough to vote for them until we look further into it. The order's actually YankCane151/Kid Know Nothing/tarsonisocelot/avasthearties for us. Give or take, anyway. We haven't done much work on it out of pretty much sheer boredom due to Wicked.)

[Horrifying Hero]

Hey, Slaxx.

Wanted to bring this up while I was on the subject of failures*:

The game didn't end when Wicked died.

*But didn't due to ongoing. It's not, anymore.

[Horrifying Hero]

Nah. Quite frankly, we're waiting for deadline to get near. We can talk all day, but we both have realized neither will so much as consider moving our positions until 48 or so hours before deadline. Making a case would be a waste of time.

[Horrifying Hero]

To clarify:
First we = us, Horrifying Hero. The others could be considered as well since they're valid. But they were meant as "We" as in "Wicked Lynch versus Ethos's choices", and neither will move before then.

[Horrifying Hero]

I like both

Ethos

and Magua's posts so far and my

town

reads

[/y]

on

those slots

have

strengthened

.

This has to be the biggest scumslip of the century.

Wicked, you're a "cop".

You "investigated" ConfidAnon, who "turned up town". And therefore, ConfidAnon is not a "town-read", but rather, already Confirmed Town.

Ethos replaced ConfidAnon. You have a "town read" on Ethos?
No, YOU SHOULD BE CALLING ETHOS CONFIRMED TOWN, NOT

JUST

A TOWN READ!

The only issue I have with Ethos so far is the reasoning for their town read on el simo.

HE HAS AN

ISSUE

WITH HIS "COP CLEAR"! Does anyone NOT see the

issue

with that?

[Horrifying Hero]

Broken tag.

I like both

Ethos

and Magua's posts so far and my

town

reads

on

those slots

have

strengthened

.

This has to be the biggest scumslip of the century.

Wicked, you're a "cop".

You "investigated" ConfidAnon, who "turned up town". And therefore, ConfidAnon is not a "town-read", but rather, already Confirmed Town.

Ethos replaced ConfidAnon. You have a "town read" on Ethos?
No, YOU SHOULD BE CALLING ETHOS CONFIRMED TOWN, NOT

JUST

A TOWN READ!

The only issue I have with Ethos so far is the reasoning for their town read on el simo.

HE HAS AN

ISSUE

WITH HIS "COP CLEAR"! Does anyone NOT see the

issue

with that?

Fixed?

[Horrifying Hero]

VOTE: Krazy.

No point in waiting.

Claim: VT

.

[Horrifying Hero]

Unvote, Vote: Fenix

.

Wicked and Ethos are confirmed town.
Why?
95% likelihood that scum targeted Wicked.
Wicked was a serious scum suspect for many people.
Therefore, scum were afraid of Wicked.
IE, Wicked was a threat.
Therefore, Wicked can't be scum, nor would Ethos (confirmed town) fear him. Ethos could just watch the town mislynch Wicked today if they were scum and be called confirmed town after that. Since Wicked was most certainly targeted, both are confirmed town.

This also means Wicked's current investigation is confirmed town as well. Ergo, tarsonis is town as well. So, yeah. All confirmed town. Pretty much a guaranteed win at this point.

[Horrifying Hero]

[prododge while waiting for Fenix to be lynched] Stop the SK talk. Where was the SK's kill N1? There wasn't one. So unless they double-killed, or targeted Hez, there's no way that a SK can be present. [/prododge waiting for Fenix lynch]

[Horrifying Hero]

Strangest Night 2 & Day 3 Ever.

And, Wicked. Sorry for being horribly wrong.

Oh yeah, not all the posts signed by me are actually me. Mastin impersonated me a couple of times lulz.

Oh, Rainbowdash, are you an alt, and would you mind if I try to guess who you are?

-Lat

[Horrifying Hero]

If im an alt I would deny any guess, feel free though. Some of you ponies have guessed some amusing guesses through the games ive been in.

Sotty. (Since you're gonna deny it could you humor on why can't possibly be Sotty? )

What did other people guess, if you don't mind me asking?

[Horrifying Hero]

Eh? But vig shots still go through even if the vig dies on that night, no?

[Horrifying Hero]

Wait, nvm