Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[sottyrulez]

Vote: 4nxi3ty

[sottyrulez]

Slowly getting back into our regular routine. Bear with us just a little bit longer.

[sottyrulez]

Okay we're caught up.

RVQ ain't happening here.

Vi's post restriction is terrible and I hate it, but she is at least providing some content. Content I agree with, willing to give her a pass for now.

Kill the crab, it's scum.

Post 63 is a massive red flag for us. What makes them certain that Vi's not faking the post restriction? Reaction here reeks of inside knowledge. (Also I personally disliked the way they seemed to attempt to shut down this line of discussion by lumping it into an accusation that attempting to communicate with Vi is trying to modkill Vi.)

Also dislike post 121. It's non committal to shift and potentially an associative tell contingent on one of them flipping scum. Not as strong, but I'm not used to seeing that kind of waffling from VP.

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC. Really not understanding saulres vote on him in 127. He seems to pick up on a lot of things that aren't actually scummy.

ace is another scum pick of ours, his tone is just very off. Feels fake. Also feels like he is going though the motions rather than actual scum hunting.

Vote: Crab Canon

[sottyrulez]

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC.

Elaborate on this please. Particularly the part about us.

His early posts were very WTF and I wasn't sure what kind of player we had here. But from post 105 onward he picks it up and starts scum hunting. He pokes Shift for the strange defense of his wagon he gave in post 67, something we noted on our read. It really comes out of left field.

Ace not posting yet is ridiculous, so are Saul, Spring, and Riggs not voting anyone. Votes on Anxiety are silly.

Also note that at the time of this post, Anxiety wasn't voting anyone. He had unvoted CC and not placed his vote anywhere else.

No one else picked up on this other than Anxiety and he pushed on it. It's a valid point and we think it is town motivated the way he worries about being buddied up too. He posts in almost strange way, but we like his vibe so far.

He hasn't really said a lot about you, but he's voting you and well we like that. Cause you're scum.

lumping it into an accusation that attempting to communicate with Vi is trying to modkill Vi

orly? It was made out to be like any communication with Vi should be stopped?

It's funny, I knew your response was going to be something along those lines. I think your statement can be interpreted to have that effect. At the very least, you were attempting to cut off a line of discussion. (About Vi's post restriction.) Personally my thoughts would have expanded to figuring out more about what Vi can respond to and how Vi might be able to communicate with us more clearly without having to talk about the apparent post restriction. (Which it seems Vi is unable to discuss.) Your apparent reaction was, STOP ASKING ABOUT THE POST RESTRICTION BECAUSE OMG MODKILL.

Post 63 - It has nothing to do with inside information and more to do with figuring out who Vi is and realizing that it is likely a town role. Last time Vi "faked" a post restriction she pretty much admitted it was self inflicted. Here, I see the post restriction as coming from DDD given who it is.

Character setup speculation, now that's a great reason to think someone is town.

Post 121 - Sometimes a rose is just a rose. How is being unable to read Shift at this juncture a scum tell. Can you read Shift? Is saying it out loud the scum tell?

What was the point of it other than to dissent from other's reads? Why just him, in particular, at that point in time?

[sottyrulez]

You stop posting content I'm gonna have a problem, same as any player slot. But claimed PR's are more apt to get away with coasting (See: Arms spread wide) and I'm not about to let that happen again. I'm also some what skeptical that the mod kill rules would be SO strict that you can't tell us what you can or cannot post. Content that has come from you eases my mind somewhat though but and so on...

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

*Spreads arms wide*

[sottyrulez]

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

If Vi is town and CC is scum they would assume she was telling the truth, no?

Amrun I liked your reasoning around your Junpei vote but other than that one post all you've done is ask a lot of pointless questions. I say pointless, because there is no follow up from you. I don't like it. Are you scum? Some reads other that Junpei would be nice.

A Guy_Named_Riggs is also an excellent vote at this point.

Crab's response is pretty underwhelming (semantics, strawmanning points, softly suspecting us) Happy with the vote.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Clear as day your reasoning was not. That is why you ended up trying to describe what you were apparently trying to say in more detail. Let's not try to rewrite history here.

Zach

[sottyrulez]

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

Sotty already covered this, but I'd like to add to it.

Are you really trying to argue this as a non point? Do you think town has as equal an interest as scum in just accepting that Vi has a post restriction and being happy with the idea of having a more challenging line of communication with Vi? Because I don't really see how that kind of thinking makes any kind of sense as being equally/more likely to come from a town perspective.

[sottyrulez]

Sotty, haven't we done this song and dance before?

Yeah. I already told Zach I will probably need his help in reading you since I always find you scummy. But your last seemingly silly question pushed me over the edge. I have no issues with asking questions if it looks like they are going somewhere. If that is a follow up question or a read then fine, if it is never to mention this question again I'm going to have an issue. Any chance we can get an elaboration on your Crab read?

We liked Anxiety for reasons stated about Shift and for his vote on CC. We believe CC is overstating the OMG MOD KILL danger Vi was in. I don't know how much clearer we can be there and yet still Crab wants to get all twisty with it.

VP is trying to make it us v him today... Where oh where have I seen that before...?

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled?

It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

Explain to me how that is unclear in any way, shape or form. Even drawing a picture would make that less clear than it already is.

Whenever you're ready to answer this, that'd be great. You can malign my name all you'd like and say I'm arguing semantics, but if you can't actually prove your point, then I don't see how you feel you're actually scumhunting.

For those of you following at home not so closely, this is the interaction:

Sottyrulez: CC was trying to get people to stop communicating with Vi.
CC: I don't see how what I said could have been interpreted that way.
Sottyrulez: I see how it could. You were saying to stop talking about her post restriction like it was a bad thing, implying you knew for sure she was telling the truth.
CC: Please show me where I said to stop talking to her.
Sottyrulez: LOL SEMANTICS
CC: What? Here's the quote where I explicitly said, let's not push on the post restriction she said she could get modkilled over. I think that goes against the integrity of mafia.
Sottyrulez: CC just wants to argue. LYNCH NAO.

and etc. Your complete and utter refusal to back anything up with logic shows you got in too deep with a bad argument, as scum are wont to do. I think I've given you plenty of chances to admit you simply misinterpreted what I wrote. Now you're actively misrepresenting it and painting it like I'm trying to malign your name through jedi mind tricks. I've directly quoted what I said and expressed how it is completely clear. Unless you can do the same, you're just puffing hot air.

[sottyrulez]

Again, I don't understand why you're being obstinate toward very specific questions that should be easy to answer if you're town.

Still trying to figure out what I'm looking at here.

[sottyrulez]

ok, and you said that what 4nxi3ty said about us also turned you around. what exactly did he say about us that changed your opinion of him?

yet to answer this Scumttyrulez

Ah huh.

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC. Really not understanding saulres vote on him in 127. He seems to pick up on a lot of things that aren't actually scummy.

He hasn't really said a lot about you, but he's voting you and well we like that. Cause you're scum.

We liked Anxiety for reasons stated about Shift and for his vote on CC. We believe CC is overstating the OMG MOD KILL danger Vi was in. I don't know how much clearer we can be there and yet still Crab wants to get all twisty with it.

[sottyrulez]

He hasn't really said a lot about you, but he's voting you and well we like that. Cause you're scum.

Ok, missed that line amidst the BS. Saw the other two and those are definitely not answers. But it was exactly what I was getting at in the first place. You are saying you liked the things he said about me, but then it's just a vote, first in the RVS and then a vote without an explanation. I don't see how that does anything for you in terms of reading his alignment.

For me, his reaction to Shift's 67 is contrary to motivations I would expect from scum. (Stronger tell with a less experienced player at that.)

Also regarding Crab's 169, you can either take his word on what we said, or read what we actually said here.

Actually that post itself elaborates on anxiety better than I did above.

[sottyrulez]

Which wagon are you talking about ace?

[sottyrulez]

I get what you're saying Amrun. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

[sottyrulez]

Why do you care if someone throws a fit, Shift?

No follow up.

Why is that indicative of him being town?

No follow up.

Why does Junpei look all right to you?

No follow up.

Shift, what made you think that anyone was voting Junpei for asking RQS questions?

No follow up.

So you think Shift is scum and you vote Crab Canon? o.O

No follow up.

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

I thought this was obvious, but maybe it wasn't seeing your reaction. Will to give this the benefit of the doubt.

The pattern was you would asked a bunch of questions that looked to go no where. It's a way of generating content without actually committing to reads. Before I asked you directly to give your reads there was little in your ISO to show what you were thinking or if you were doing anything with these answers you were getting. Asking questions helps determine alignment, I know. But I'm not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt if all they are going to do is ask questions that look like they go nowhere.

Amrun, what game is this where Vi faked a PR? I'm interested. We can see why you think that is invaild because of Juls, but I just don't agree. I would think townVP would want to figure out the depths of the PR rather than curtail all discussion around it. Post 63 does indirectly suggest that VP believes Vi because he is SO WORRIED about a mod kill. Which I personally think is BS. I just don't know why he would be willing to let someone like Vi off so lightly.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Scotty: Regarding Vi's post restriction, you see it as a red flag because CC says "there is nothing she can do about it", right? Because it seems to mean that CC

knows

that she's not faking it, and the only way they'd know that is if they communicated with her outside the thread.

Assuming that there is knowledge, may I remind you that we're in a closed setup? That communication could have happened between scum,

or

between masons. Given who Vi's role likely is, it could be either. Or it could have just been an assumption. It's really not an alignment tell in any way, but might become one when either of them flip.

Nooo. That's not what we're saying. We're not suggesting communication outside of the thread at all. I'll try and break it down even more.

Lets just pretend Crab is scum and Vi is town.

Lets say Vi starts posting in a strange way that suggests a post restriction. Townies scratch their heads and twiddle their beards wondering what is going on. What can Vi post? What can't she post? Is she really restricted or this this some gambit for reactions, or worse, a gambit by scum so they don't have to commit in thread? Townies then question Vi and make up their mind depending on what she posts, if she is telling the truth or not. Lets pretend at the start of the game Vi isn't very helpful with this. Suggests she would be modkilled for talking about her restriction and isn't very helpful to the town. The town is perplexed.

In this situation any scum (Crab) would already know Vi isn't scum with them. That means they believe she is town. If Vi is town then it is unlikely she is lying, so scum are more willing to take anything she might suggest as truth.

Basically our point is ScumCrab already knows Vi isn't scum with them and then believes, without question the PR is real.

~S-O-T-T-Y

[sottyrulez]

I don't see any scum motivation for stating a read (or in this case, a non-read) on Shift. CC could easily have ignored my vague post before it and avoided stating any read (which would be much more noncommital than stating that he was having trouble reading Shift). In fact, now that I'm looking at it more closely, why didn't you (sottyrulez) call ME out for being noncommital on Shift? My post was easily as noncommital as CC's, and it came first, yet you call him out for it and not me.


I'm tired so I'm not sure that made sense. Ask me questions if it doesn't and I'll sort it out later.

Eh? I thought you were stating a scum read on Shift. (Or speculating to his likelihood of being scum based on what you observed of his play.)

Crab Canon's response amounted to none of that. It was just Crab saying that he didn't know what to think of Shift, almost like he saw the pressure on Shift and thought he needed to say something about it.

When you get down to it, your response seemed pretty organic, and Crab's felt forced.

[sottyrulez]

Thanks for the game Amrun, I'll check it out. To be clear we have a couple of town reads and you are one of them. At the time it was weak and I just wanted to engage you more in the game to see which way you would swing. Needless to say, your responses after that have strengthened the read.

saulres; agree to disagree I guess. But now you're the second person to say the point is moot so it's something to take on board. I think looking over the game Amrun linked and seeing others input will go aways to seeing if we're right or wrong on this issue. Regradless, VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote

at all

. What do you think?

Right now I really want to hear a lot more from Ace, Junpei and Riggs. A shift appearance would also be nice.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

antagonistic is my interpretation and hardly any kind of buzzword. I do think their posts were antagonistic.

This game is about giving interpretations

and I don't think it's unfair of me to say I feel that way about specific posts. I also don't think saying they misrepresented something is a buzzword either because I backed it up with a quote from me that pretty much contradicts what they claimed I said.

Using buzzwords like semantics argument and strawmanning without providing concrete examples of how I am doing those things is different from what you are saying there.

Were there any other places you felt I twisted their words?

Oh hey that's what we did.

[sottyrulez]

Hahaha, I am characterized as a logical player. That's pretty funny.

I knew you were conjuring up Road to Wrestlemania, see this worked for me the last time I did it when I was town, so now I can go self meta (And twist their meta.) in order to make everyone think this is the same thing...

While ignoring the vastly different reaction you got from that here of course... because that's too inconvenient to your fox news blitz.

[sottyrulez]

I don't remember any of the arguments I made in that game. It was too painful so I repressed the memory.

[sottyrulez]

^ Also a good idea.

Unvote: Vote: Ace5993

[sottyrulez]

what do you feel I'm twisting then exactly?

Everything?

Care to share your thoughts on Ace's play thus far?

[sottyrulez]

It's called scumhunting. You should try it sometime.

[sottyrulez]

/me begins thinking about who could be the other in Vi's group of three roles is. He knows who Vi's role is, knows who Vi's partner role is (the role not the player for sure yet, although he has his suspicions) and wonders if the third has the initials ca.

Hoping to catch a fish with that line you're casting there?

[sottyrulez]

Bandwagoning isn't scummy. It's how lynches happen. We are happy to bandwagon our top suspects as long as the others on said wagon look good. We think Vi is town.

By all means try to figure out the game puzzle, but stop actively rolefishing in thread. This helps the scum figure out things they might not otherwise. Sometimes it is good to use your inside-your-head-voice.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Sooooo... Recent thoughts.

Riggs thinks we're really scummy for changing our vote to ace, yet JOINS us on this wagon with a vote for ace. GTFO with your bussing comments without a scum flip. That has to be the worse reasoned vote I have seen.

Junpei voting for Anxiety is all kinds of ick. Kinda skimmed the case though, more detailed thoughts tomorrow when I take the time to read.

Ace, what opinions of Vi's are we stealing? I'm real interested in seeing exactly what you are talking about because my bullshit meter is going off the charts. Considering Vi's post restriction, it makes near impossible for her to be totally clear.

Shift, you made a post about how silly it was to be asking Vi questions. I don't see you attempting to shut down people in the same way Crab did. I also didn't see you making a post where you completely and totally buy her restriction. There is a difference between you and Crab, you didn't make the same posts so comparing them is kinda fail.

The name mix ups mean nothing. It is something easily manipulated and a null tell. In context it was pretty obvious who Crab was talking about.

~Sotty

Edit: Dammit, it's normally Zach who screws upppp.

[sottyrulez]

@sotty - *Vi starts CC wagon* *sotty jumps on CC wagon* *sotty fabricates ridiculous explanations* *Vi starts ace wagon* *sotty jumps on ace wagon* *TBC*

Yeah it's bullshit. Thought so.

[sottyrulez]

@sotty - *Vi starts CC wagon* *sotty jumps on CC wagon* *sotty fabricates ridiculous explanations* *Vi starts ace wagon* *sotty jumps on ace wagon* *TBC*

Yeah it's bullshit. Thought so.

I think that line of reasoning accurately applies to both you and Anxiety. What's so bullshit about it? Those things didn't happen?

*fishy replaces in*

Awesome Hi, Fishy!

We followed Vi's vote, sure. But we know that's not scummy in of itself.

Ace is claiming we stole Vi's opinions, made them our own and expanded on them. This is blatantly not true, you just have to look at the reasons behind each of our votes for you for example. Here's a hint, they aren't even close to the same. Vi voted you for your weak wagon hop, something we didn't even mention. Ace is trying to link us to Vi in a negative way by suggesting we're sheeping without original thought of our own. I would also like to point out we were suspious of ace well before Vi's vote on him, but that messes up his point of us being the so called black sheep. So yeah.

It's almost like he wants to scare us into not following Vi in the future if the situation would arise. I wonder why, I mean he seems to agree Vi is town and if he truly finds bandwagoning scummy, us continuing to do it would look bad wouldn't it? And scum following town like a little lost puppy dog means that the hyposcum vote is still being influenced by the hypotown. In all, it makes me think he is seeing a potential town voting block and is looking to dirty it as soon as possible disregarding the facts of how it actually played out. Instead, he strips the actions down to be as minimal as possible (votes) and accuses us of locking onto Vi while providing no or "silly" content along the way without actually quoting it and proving his point (because he can't).

Hence, bullshit. You really don't smell that?

~Sotty

Hey Fishy!

[sottyrulez]

Yeah okay I read Junpei's case on Anxiety and I still don't get it. Think he is town.

Amrun what do you think about him? And Vi, if you could act out something that I might get to show us your Anxiety read that would be awesome.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Sotty moving off CC also feels off. If he believes half of what he says, there's no way Sotty can want ace lynched more than he wants CC lynched. He also generally seems to try to shut down the discussion with CC.

Yes, Crab Canon can be the only person we think is scum, and we can't shift our efforts towards someone else who we also happen to think is scum who has more momentum bandwagon wise. (And is also going to disturbing levels of effort to defend said Crab.)

[sottyrulez]

And in response to Ace since I can't be bothered to make a wall of my own to respond to him, in response to the claim that our suspicions of him formed out of thin air following Vi's vote, I will point you to Iso 2, which while briefly elaborating on suspicion of you, was the result of a pretty good amount of discussion between myself and Sotty about why we thought you were scum.

Just because reasoning was not attached to said vote doesn't mean it's not there.

[sottyrulez]

Yeah okay I read Junpei's case on Anxiety and I still don't get it.

Can you state specifically where you are having troubles seeing my points? Saying "I don't get it" is pretty noncommittal and vague.

Actually no, I'd like 4nxi3ty to address my case, it'll help determine his alignment that way.

Yes this is why I didn't go in detail about why.

Also calling the player town is anything but vague and non committal btw.

Also more coming RE:Fishy and crab love affair, but I need to talk to Zach and he is not around right now. So to be continued.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

*finds magic bullet*
*ponders*
*looks at reflection in mirror*

Yeah, stop this please.

[sottyrulez]

I don't understand why Fishy is making the argument between ourselves and Crab to be almost strictly Scum v Town. Post 292 seems to be him talking about the argument in his own words (I obviously disagree) but I don't really see how us being WRONG to Fishy makes us auto scum.

It's like he breaks the fight down and votes us for being wrong, but I still don't get why that makes us scum. See logical players will do that and logical scum players can take anything and make it scummy and I kinda feel like that's what he doing here. I think I need more explaination on why the actions we did are scummy OUTSIDE being wrong. Cause like, townies can be wrong too. Townies are more likely to be wrong right?

I'd also like more Fishy reads that aren't us or Crab.

You were the second vote on ace. Hardly a momentous bandwagon. And since then, you've been totally ignoring CC, except this gem:

We still think Crab is scum. But we know when we're beat. The VP head of Crab cannon is freaking EXCELLENT when he is scum, at taking an argument, twisting it on it's head and making it a personal battle. This is what has happened in this game and it is also what happened in Pie E7 mark II. That will provide meta for three players in this game cause Vi is also in there. But it starts from post six where we start to pressure VP right away and if you read though you'll see how quick things get messy.

I'm not interested in playing that all over again. The game got bogged down and everyone got all shitty and crabby (har har) but yes. We made an internal choice to deflate the fight between us and Crab to stop the stupid mass posting, and to let the game breathe. I wanted to see what other people would do when the stage wasn't hogged up by us and Crab. I also wanted to see if maybe I was wrong and that I read Crab wrong, so I wanted to see what he would do when we weren't in his face. The answer is not a lot really. So yes, he is still a scum read. But no he isn't our only scum read.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

The VP head of Crab cannon is freaking EXCELLENT when he is scum, at taking an argument, twisting it on it's head and making it a personal battle.

No chopping quotes, bad Vi.

[sottyrulez]

Granted I have terrible sentence structure, but I thought it was clear that I meant Crab makes personal spat fights as scum. It's his MO.

[sottyrulez]

If wishes were fishes.

Crab, what happens when we flip town?

[sottyrulez]

This wagon is terrible and getting even worse with the reasoning for subsequent hop ons.

[sottyrulez]

tl;dr: We think Crab is scum but don't see how us being wrong makes it Town vs. Scum. We believe he's scum but not sure and not willing to maintain an argument with him out of fear of losing.

While shortened it may not seem that bad but something about it rubs me entirely the wrong way. I don't like it.

VOTE: sottyrulez

She was challenging Fishy's assumption via his point of view. That wasn't what she was saying at all.

[sottyrulez]

sotty, that's exactly what she (one of your heads) said. It's completely irrelevant whether or not it was in response to Fishy. I'm glad to see that you've resorted to making general "this wagon is terrible" statements while simultaneously backing up on your earlier defenses though.

You clearly either can't see what I explained, or you're deliberately refusing to. Guess which one I think is more likely?

[sottyrulez]

This is getting so stupid. If you guys are content to spin everything we say into something that's scummy, let us know now so we can just drop any attempt to continue wasting time with a defense and just skip to the claim.

[sottyrulez]

I don't understand why Fishy is making the argument between ourselves and Crab to be almost strictly Scum v Town. Post 292 seems to be him talking about the argument in his own words (I obviously disagree) but I don't really see how us being WRONG to Fishy makes us auto scum.

It's like he breaks the fight down and votes us for being wrong, but I still don't get why that makes us scum. See logical players will do that and logical scum players can take anything and make it scummy and I kinda feel like that's what he doing here. I think I need more explaination on why the actions we did are scummy OUTSIDE being wrong. Cause like, townies can be wrong too. Townies are more likely to be wrong right?

For the why you are scum bit see the last section on you in 292. You've argued this

dirtily

. You've accused CC of lots of bad buzzwords, without any serious attempt to back most of them up, and you haven't commented on important things brought up by CC in response. I think it's totally obvious that CC isn't executing a squirming, twisting, semantics using, strawmanning Fox News blitz. And I don't think, even through the distorting lens of being the other side of the argument, that you can really believe that. In fact, in the rest of this post, you seem to say you've been out-argued:

Let's say for the sake of argument that we have been outargued. Is it then your position that scum is completely unable to outargue town in any situation? Because this is the argument you seem to be making here.

We still think Crab is scum. But we know when we're beat. The VP head of Crab cannon is freaking EXCELLENT when he is scum, at taking an argument, twisting it on it's head and making it a personal battle. This is what has happened in this game and it is also what happened in Pie E7 mark II. That will provide meta for three players in this game cause Vi is also in there. But it starts from post six where we start to pressure VP right away and if you read though you'll see how quick things get messy.

I'm not interested in playing that all over again. The game got bogged down and everyone got all shitty and crabby (har har) but yes. We made an internal choice to deflate the fight between us and Crab to stop the stupid mass posting, and to let the game breathe. I wanted to see what other people would do when the stage wasn't hogged up by us and Crab. I also wanted to see if maybe I was wrong and that I read Crab wrong, so I wanted to see what he would do when we weren't in his face. The answer is not a lot really. So yes, he is still a scum read. But no he isn't our only scum read.

~Sotty.

You saying you know that you're beat here doesn't square with what I see in the thread. If CC is all that you say he is, you should want and be able to demonstrate some or all of it to the town. You really haven't made any serious attempt to do that for a long time. Your manner of withdrawing from the argument - unjustified name-calling for a while, and then just stopping responding meaningfully - is bad.

We definitely

want

to demonstrate how he's scum. Claiming we

should be able to demonstrate

it is a burden of proof fallacy, and believe me, I've played in plenty of games where I've locked into scum and no one's bothered to listen or care while the game just endlessly stalls and it's clearly not possible to get the lynch I want. What exactly do you want us to do? Continue making the same arguments ad nauseaum? Start making up points? I guess I don't really understand what you expect here.

I need to read and think some more before I give more reads - haven't got a full picture of all of the game yet. Quite busy this weekend, so expect that on Sunday.

Is Crab Canon vs Sottyrulez really the only thing you've bothered to put much effort into?

[sottyrulez]

You saying you know that you're beat here doesn't square with what I see in the thread. If CC is all that you say he is, you should want and be able to demonstrate some or all of it to the town. You really haven't made any serious attempt to do that for a long time. Your manner of withdrawing from the argument -

unjustified name-calling for a while,

and then just stopping responding meaningfully - is bad.

I need to read and think some more before I give more reads - haven't got a full picture of all of the game yet. Quite busy this weekend, so expect that on Sunday.

Just noticed this. Examples of the unjustified name calling please.

[sottyrulez]

You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?

[sottyrulez]

You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?

Yes, I suppose "name calling" is the wrong choice of words. Rather "unjustified generic accusations".

Weeeee bracktrack!

Also, this is how Spring plays all her games. It has no bearing on her alignment, hopefully she'll get replaced sooner rather than later.

[sottyrulez]

You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?

Yes, I suppose "name calling" is the wrong choice of words. Rather "unjustified generic accusations".

Weeeee bracktrack!

Also, this is how Spring plays all her games. It has no bearing on her alignment, hopefully she'll get replaced sooner rather than later.

You can't seriously be considering this a backtrack, he's clarifying.

Yes, EVERYTHING we say is scummy, but at some point some of you are going to have to actually turn your brains on.

[sottyrulez]

I never policy lynched you, I suggested that others do.

The error was not trying to build a stronger case against you.

Wut

[sottyrulez]

Hey Saulres, let's go back to your info argument regarding us along with Vi, and Anxiety moving our votes as a group. What would our flip hypothetically tell you about them?

[sottyrulez]

@amrun - why do you think shift is more viable than junpei? I would personally be more interested in the latter. Right now I would go for junpei, ace, or sotty. I really don't like how sotty has not posted much since the sr wagon deteriorated.

Actually, we curtailed our posting long before that. Perhaps the real question should be, why did our wagon implode when we didn't do anything to make it happen? Something we've been chewing on a little.

I very much dislike PBPA a method of case building. You can pretty much represent anyone's post how ever you like. It makes it very easy for scum to make mountains out of molehills and for town to succumb to their already present biases. I guess as a catch up method it's okish.. But I still don't like it and rarely take PBPA's seriously.

With that in mind, ace abandoning ship is just awesome.

We currently have different opinions on Spring so we're talking it out . Expect something on her in a little while.

[sottyrulez]

Or, rejoin the much more viable SR wagon. If you think GNR is scum, then you have to think SR's also scum from the way GNR treated him in 243.

Wait, I thought we were scum with Vi and Anxiety. What happened to that?

We like Springs recent burst of content even if we don't agree with everything she said, namely her reads. They seem a little

too

cookie cutter and I don't see her taking any real risks with what she posted.

Still, we think there are much better people to lynch I.E ace, who's flip flop over us and Spring is just really terrible.

saulres hasn't actually laid out why we are scummy, just that he thinks we are the best information lynch and that isn't really a good reason at all. He hasn't given us anything to answer for or to explain, just "I want to know your alignment." What are we expected to do with that?

[sottyrulez]

Or, rejoin the much more viable SR wagon. If you think GNR is scum, then you have to think SR's also scum from the way GNR treated him in 243.

I'm confused as to where you think the link is here. (If there's any link, I think it's GNR with Ace and he's accusing us of busing to throw off the fact that he's actually the one doing the busing here.)

Actually made note of that some time ago but I don't particularly like to use associative based reasoning as a basis for lynch.

As it is, I could easily support a GNR lynch based on the fact that he's posted pretty much nothing redeemable.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote, Vote: sottyrulez

Meh, Springlullaby's wall makes me think he was somewhat disinterested town rather than active lurking.

I'm calling bullshit.

teh facts:

1. In 382 you decry Shift for voting for Spring while moving from us

2. Post 405: Spring wagon becomes viable so KAPOW, let's get on that shit while it's hot! Sottyrulez being the best lynch evaporates away once Spring gets a couple of votes. I'd even believe he legitimately found her scummy except for...

3. Yeah... that quote above. Whatever you thought made her likely scum obviously wasn't that strong if one wall was all it took to get you to move your vote. Hell, the fact that you didn't even come up with a specific part of her post that pointed to her being town points more to the fact that you invented your reason for voting her in the first place.

Preview edit:

Sotty has a scummish read on Junpei that was much stronger earlier in the game that I didn't feel as strongly about. He's been pretty neutralish for most of the game for me and I don't really feel comfortable leaning one way or another with a read on him. I could only see us going for him in a deadline situation where he's got clear support for a lynch.

At this point the people we'd prefer to switch to are Riggs (Who is practically as good of a lynch as Ace at this point IMO, or Saulres, who I find slightly scummier than Junpei and Shift.)

[sottyrulez]

At this point the people we'd prefer to switch to are Riggs (Who is practically as good of a lynch as Ace at this point IMO, or Saulres, who I find slightly scummier than Junpei and Shift.)

Never mind, remembered it.

You literally just gave 5 scum reads.

13 people, minus you=12 possible FoS's.

You just gave scum reads on half the game.

Errrr no. We gave an order of preference for lynch in a deadline situation, that's a significant difference. All the reads after Riggs are leaning scum at best.

[sottyrulez]

sotty attacking me for being on the springlullaby wagon is just ridiculous.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Oh and one more:

@sotty

- what was the ORIGINAL reason you voted me? Specifically.

The quicktopic discussion conveyed a feeling that you were trying to blend in too much. I can actually paste some quicktopic posts which convey our thought process on you but I don't really find it necessary.

Saw Riggs' claim. We're still digesting it over here. Definitely want to see what Vi has to say now.

[sottyrulez]

@sotty - I thought you two were married, why do you need a quicktopic to discuss reads? (not game related I know but my curiosity and etc.)

We have a QT because we're not always together. That way when a thought hits us we can make a note of it and come back to it later. We also use it as a way to type out our posts for the other to read over if needs be. It helps keep game information safe and in one place as well.

Vi not dismissing the Riggs post points directly to neighbors. I'm still not overly swayed by the case however, and just because Vi suddenly has a vessel for talking doesn't mean she is suddenly right. Willing to comprise on an SL lynch, but we still think ace is the man for the noose.

[sottyrulez]

Votes for Ace are so much more awesome than votes not for Ace, please adjust your own vote accordingly.

[sottyrulez]

My wagon is so obviously scum-driven right now it's not even funny. The points people have on me are:

*Snip*

I mean seriously, this is just garbage.

Sotty you're defending yourself by claiming absolutely everything someone says about you is not only wrong, but scummy. THAT IS SCUMMY.

[sottyrulez]

Hey Locke, if you're still on over there, I think we're going to have to move our votes.

Unvote: Vote: Spring

I went through the vote count and all the players on it and I'm not seeing a path to an ace lynch today.

[sottyrulez]

====[]

Someone do it. Playing chicken with the deadline is not cool.

[sottyrulez]

Theoretically doesn't mean actually. I'm not even the least bit interested in risking a situation where you fail to hammer but your statement of "theoretically" hammering somehow discourages someone else in a position to hammer to do so.

[sottyrulez]

Theoretically doesn't mean actually. I'm not even the least bit interested in risking a situation where you fail to hammer but your statement of "theoretically" hammering somehow discourages someone else in a position to hammer to do so.

How about this, if anyone votes Ace (the next leading wagon) I will instant hammer. On top of that, 10 minutes from the deadline, I will hammer.

I want to keep the day alive for a few extra hours because several people have indicated that they will be posting just before deadline.

You clearly don't want Ace lynched then. Our lynch clearly isn't happening. What exactly are you waiting for?

[sottyrulez]

What exactly do you think people who haven't posted are going to post when they log on this close to the deadline?

Here's a hint, it starts with a 'H' and end with a 'ammer'

Time for talk is over, pretending that it's not is pretty ridiculous. The only reason to wait is to hear what Spring is going to say and I very much doubt that will happen. She still has her vote on Shift. If can't even be bothered to help herself, I doubt she is going to come in here and help us.

[sottyrulez]

Well Singer isn't playing, so no.

Also, lol.

[sottyrulez]

Okay, I'll humor you.

Lets say Spring claims in the next two hours. What do you expect that will do for the game state?