Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[IceGuy]

/confirm

[IceGuy]

VOTE: malpascp lynch all flakers

[IceGuy]

Sidebar: I am amazed that nobody seems to care that IceGuy is pushing a policy lynch already rather than, you know, trying to scumhunt. Why lynch all flakers, IceGuy?

Unvote. Vote: IceGuy.

Because it's RVS. malpascp will get replaced anyway.

[IceGuy]

Semi V/LA:

I only have a very bad Internet connection until Thursday afternoon (CEST) and my participation will be limited.

[IceGuy]

UNVOTE:

I'm back.

Sidebar: I am amazed that nobody seems to care that IceGuy is pushing a policy lynch already rather than, you know, trying to scumhunt. Why lynch all flakers, IceGuy?

Unvote. Vote: IceGuy.

Note how DY responds with a (serious) vote on me to a (RVS) vote of mine.

The reason I don't put a vote out is because if I am right, but I guess the first 2 people that aren't scum, we'd have lynched 2 Town.

It's 13 to lynch, not TheJakalope's vote to lynch. Why are you sparing your vote?

---

While I like yos2's case on Baby Spice, I don't like the wagon. Alabaska, GW, Wraith, StefanB and Bogre just jumped on the wagon without much justification, and I'm sure there is at least one scum player, likely two between them.

Because of this...

Also, we are miller

it's a VOTE: GW

You claim miller immediately, not when pressure is building up. And you don't follow up with

We are a great beast and therefore we are treated for investigative roles as a werewolf.
Does it actually matter what kind of miller?

but you claim all details of your millerhood immediately.

---

Yes, but I've been following MoI with amusement. Self-Voting isn't a scumtell. Not even in RVS, given it was a joke-vote, and was blatantly so. That seemed to me to simply be an attempt to start a bandwagon from nothing, which fell flat on it's face.

FoS MoI

UNVOTE:

Not sure of BabySpice. Bad reactions, but people seem a little too happy to sheep, and admit same. Pondering.

Why so indecisive? Where is your vote?

---

Magister Ludi's

spam

posting deserves a reread which will follow.

---

Ghostlin, why the CS - Maxous - GW hop? Or rather, why didn't you vote GW immediately when you noticed CS was part of that hydra?

---

I haven't been paying much attention to this game in truth. I did a quick iso on magister ludi and his posts have rarely had little other than fluffiness from what I've seen.

Vote Magister Ludi

I believe we've already established ML isn't just posting fluff. Why the vote now?

[IceGuy]

Note how DY responds with a (serious) vote on me to a (RVS) vote of mine.

Please tell me why you mentioned this ^_^
i.e. what is your point here?

I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish there, but I'm noting it in case it becomes a town or scum tell when combined with other votes/posts.

[IceGuy]

So, let's do some vote analysis:

Players who jumped onto the Baby Spice wagon without justification: Alabaska, GW, Wraith, StefanB and Bogre

Players who jumped onto the Otolia wagon without justification: StefanB, sorgster, Ghostlin

The "opportunistic scum" award of this game goes to StefanB.

VOTE: StefanB

[IceGuy]

So what if BabySpice and Otolia are scum? Where is the opportunism here?

They might be both scum on different teams?

His first posts are all fluff.

I don't see any fluff (unless you see RVS posting as such).

At post #219 every thing he says is mentioned already. (the quote of DY he had answered himself before). Because of that, that post is completely ignored. (aside from the quote he had from DY on which the answer was "I don't know if scum or town tell)

I was semi V/LA for most of the early game and had to catch up. I'm not going to analyze every word in every post to death; I'm going through the thread and trying to find interesting stuff. In a game with 24 players, it's not a surprise some other player said something similar regarding some of my observations.

Then in his last post, he totally ignores the possibility of one or both of them being scum

See my response to zMuffinMan. And see StefanB's answer which makes me confident I actually caught scum.

And yes, Baby Spice and/or Otolia may be scum. But I'm not convinced of the cases against them, and especially Baby Spice's later behavior doesn't suggest scum at all, and Otolia reads like he's legitimately angered by MoI's irritating behavior.

and just looks a lame reason to vote for someone.

IceGuy is scum doing as little as possible and flying under the radar as good as he can.

If I would be scum, I'd have been jumping on at least one of the Baby Spice/Otolia wagons. I fail to see why you're trying to paint me as scum for actual scum-hunting and at ignoring people who are just jumping on the easy wagon.

[IceGuy]

OK, that's plausible, but it still doesn't explain why he's "opportunistic". A vote without "justification" isn't necessarily opportunistic scum, and your vote on Stefan is far more opportunistic than either of his votes.

Looking who's currently garnering the most heat and voting him is opportunistic. Using voting patterns to identify someone who's doing this isn't.

So as scum you would have made yourself even more obvious by jumping on an "easy wagon" instead of trying to appear like you're scum hunting?

Yeah, that sounds believable.

No, I'd try to appear to scum-hunt and vote the easy wagon nevertheless.

IceGuy: What was so bad about my response?
That I disproved your whole reaseaning for your vote or the fact that I promissed to be more helpful in the future, than I have in this game before?

What was bad about your response that you tried to justify your scumreads on Baby Spice and especially Otolia, and proceeded to change your vote to sageamagoo. So is your Otolia read justified (why did you change your vote, then?) or not (why were you voting him, then?)

Scumhunting would be more than a vote based on somethink that is not true. (Basicly the only think through is that I was on both waggons) and posting that you are right, without any argument.

Can you rephrase that? I seriously don't have a clue what you're trying to say here.

[IceGuy]

Must resist to not vote Iceguy right now:

Feel free to do it. Makes you even scummier.

So let my get this straight: You said I voted 2 people without a reason, I point out that I gave reason.
The Otaliawaggon doesn't need me it's big enough. Otalia is at best case at the moment playing antitown good vote. There isn't only one scum.

So let me rephrase that:

You claim your vote on Otolia was justified, and he is scum. But sage is also scum, and when I called you out on voting Otolia you noticed sage is also scummy and should get your vote because the Otolia wagon is big enough. Baby Spice is also scum. Correct?

I had my suspicion on Sage for some time, before that vote.

He only posted once in the entire thread. Why didn't you express your suspicions before I called you scummy?

That's not honest scumhunting, so yes I would like to keep my vote on Sage a little longer, because there is some strange whiteknighting going on, but you are making that very difficult.

As I said: feel free to move your vote on me. That would be the third opportunistic vote, with bonus OMGUS.

zMuffinMan and TheJakalope noted for opportunistic jump on my wagon without any justification.

Fixed quote tag.

[IceGuy]

Okay Lynch All Liars, once was bad enough, twice is to much.

Unvote

Vote: Iceguy

Called it.

So post 258 does not exist?

Of course it does, I just missed it before. I correct myself: you've expressed suspicions of Sage before. Still doesn't explain your late vote change though.

I am not sure about Baby Spice.

Why were you voting him, then?

I think it's highly likly that Otalia is scum or at best a dangerous player to leave around even if town.
I think that that the most logical explanation for the post of Sage is that she is scum with Whispersilk.

So you now have Otolia and sage down as scum. Why are you placing the only vote on a player with only one post, basing your suspicion on a single sentence, instead of the player who's participated, posted lots and has a wagon on him?

The sage-whispersilk thing is the kind of "suspicion" desperate scum is expressing.

[IceGuy]

Of corse you called it, your last post was basicly an invitation to vote you.

For scum, yes it was.

Of course it does, I just missed it before. I correct myself: you've expressed suspicions of Sage before. Still doesn't explain your late vote change though..

So you admite that your whole reason for voting me has been disproven?

No. Keep in mind the sage thing happened

after

I voted you, and the corrected version doesn't make you any less scummy.

One of my reason for voting Sage was that there was no presure on that slot.

And you noticed this just after I was calling you out on voting Otolia! What a coincidence! (Though you don't seem to care any more about putting pressure on sage, after all you changed your vote to me.)

I have tryed the whole day to not imply what I am going to do now, but I can't:
So town should ignore the lurkers? Should only sheep not start waggons? That is stupid.

You are aware that this is now the third time you've jumped on a wagon, and I've started a wagon on you for the first two times you were sheeping? Essentially you're calling me town, yet you keep your vote on me.

One sentence can be enough.
And why am I desperate, after one vote?
Are you getting desperate?

One sentence can be enough when it's a blatant scumslip, yes. The one sentence from sage regarding whispersilk wasn't. As I said, it's the kind of thing desperate scum takes to try to start a wagon and deflect attention from themselves.

[IceGuy]

Wrong, Sage comes next. The reason I didn't vote you sooner was that I didn't want to leave that pressure.

And why didn't you vote him

earlier

?

How the hell do you get the idea, that I am even still think there is a more than 5 % chance that you are town? Sorry if I gave that impresion. (How the hell can anyone get that impresion?) Do you even read my posts?

Yes, I did. You described my behavior and said that was town. So you must think that I'm town, don't you?

Voting such a poster isn't antitown!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it is. You artificially constructed a suspicion to draw away attention from yourself. This is anti-town.

And you aren't voting a lurker. I am seriously hurt to be considered a lurker in this game. I never lurk.

Why should I only vote lurkers?

---

By the way, here are the latest "justifications" for voting me:

Unvote

Vote: IceGuy

I think Ice and StephanB might be scum bussing each other. VOTE: Iceguy for having the most votes of the two.

VOTE: Iceguy

This is a lynch I can support atm.

Do you understand me now when I'm talking about opportunistic voting?

[IceGuy]

Ice Guy
-

Explain how zMuffinman has been opportunistic if you don't mind.

Anyway, my vote on whisper going nowhere fast.

unvote

VOTE: IceGuy

Why are you defending zMuffinMan?

[IceGuy]

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

Here are my reads (town = +5, neutral = 0, scum = -5):

MoI, +3: Seems to be playing his town game here, but the Otolia "kill it with fire!!!" case smells fishy.
Baby Spice, +2: Started off rather scummy but now gives off town vibes. Willing to give benefit of the doubt.
PeregrineV, -2: Limited activity and content.
EtherealCookie, -4: Almost no content, wagon-jumping.
whispersilk: No read.
Otolia, 0: Has showed behavior which was scummy, but his response to the MoI case seems more annoyed town.
BBMolla, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
TheJackalope, 0: At least some scumhunting, but also little real content and wagon-jumping.
Oversoul, +4: Genuine, but too little posting for a solid town read.
Wraith: No read.
Ghostlin, +3: Strange behavior in the beginning (voting ConS->Maxous->GW in the span of several posts) but otherwise genuine.
sageamagoo, 0: DY has a good point. Does give off some town vibes though.
Dry-Fit, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Bogre, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
Global Warming, 0: Don't like wagon-jumping and late miller claim. Rest seems genuine though.
Alabaska J: No read.
sorgster, +4: I doubt scum would put as much work into the Magister Ludi case as he did.
Yosarian2, +5: Genuine.
Magister Ludi, +1: Does give off town vibes but I find him hard to read. Meta tells don't seem to work.
David Xanatos, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Maxous, -2: Posts enough but says little. Don't like wagon-jumping and zMuffinMan defense.
DarthYoshi, +5: Genuine and I mostly agree with him.
StefanB, -5: For reasons already stated approximately a million times.
zMuffinMan, -1: Early behavior town, don't like his StefanB defense and the Maxous/zMuffinMan connection.

[IceGuy]

Regarding the circlejerk: I'm talking about the style of arguments.

I think somebody is town? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm defending him.
I think somebody is scum? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm bussing him.
I think somebody is neutral or have largely ignored him? Obviously I'm scum with him trying to avoid connections.

---

Regarding opportunistic voting: I'm not talking about all people who are voting me, I'm talking about players such as EtherealCookie.

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: RVS.
ISO #2: One sentence regarding player in ISO #3.
ISO #3: Paragraph consisting mostly of things other people have said and voting a player who is in the center of criticism and gaining votes.
ISO #4: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot.

And I'm not saying "without justification I accept", I'm saying literally without justification:

Unvote

Vote: IceGuy

That's not even pretending to scumhunt.

Or BBmolla:

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1/#2: RVS.
ISO #3: Asking Muffin whether he is scum.
ISO #4: Stand-by post.
ISO #5: Accusing people of being scum because of their reactions to the question in ISO #3.
ISO #6: Defense as he got called out for little activity.
ISO #7: Preparing to join the Otolia wagon as it's getting hot.
ISO #8: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Iceguy

This is a lynch I can support atm.

I need to get a full reread here pretty soon, gonna try to take notes to gather all my thoughts.

Or Bogre (not voting me but has shown similar behavior):
ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: Vote on Baby Spice with one-liner along the lines of "I agree", as the wagon is getting hot.
ISO #2: Same for Otolia.
ISO #3: One-sentence FOSing StefanB.
ISO #4: One-sentence question to Baby Spice.

[IceGuy]

Actually, you've been flipping out against everyone that's voted for you, not just those who have given no justification.

Considering you've laid no contest against my treatise, do you agree with me that you're a lurker, an opportunistic voter and therefore likely scum?

[
This is exactly the way scum would discredit his own voters. Calling them out when also calling someone out that is not on the wagon to have a buffer for when people say it is omgus.

Have you actually read my argument or did you just dismiss it as "scum"?

[IceGuy]

@Iceguy

- Dodge the questions I have asked you 1 more time and you get my vote immediately.

Ask serious questions instead of already answered questions, baiting questions or nonsensical questions, and you'll get answers.

[IceGuy]

By the way, here are the questions again:

So you are doing vote analysis without a single flip?

So you here are fully admitting that you were incorrect in attacking Stephan for making a vote on Sage without reasoning.

But you then just move the goalposts and continue to say it was scummy for him to vote scum? So you are saying a player who calls someone scum but moves their vote to another scum candidate is scummy?

And why would you worry about Iceguy moving his vote from Otolia who you don’t see as scum anyway? That doesn’t make sense.

[IceGuy]

Since the viable wagons are myself, Otolia, sageamagoo, and Baby Spice, I'm going to

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sageamagoo

since he is the scummiest of the four (or actually, the only one which I can see myself voting).

Other strong scum suspects are StefanB and EtherealCookie.

I've done a full Otolia, sage and BS reread.

Otolia

seems to be getting heat for one post only:

I am really puzzled by this game. There is still not much going on and I don't feel like answering or questioning anybody which is unusual.

There is people getting worked up over my spamming rant, which is a little sad. But I guess you grab whatever tell you can get. I will say that there is a preview feature on MS and I'd like people to use it more.

This post is basically a prod-dodge, I'll post more during this week, after a more careful re-read.

While a series of such posts might be a scumtell (but even if we start lynching lurkers, we should lynch the

real

lurkers which don't provide ANY content for the ENTIRE game), he was essentially right in that the game was dragging at this point. He was fired at by MoI:

I see this and my gut says “Kill it with Fire”.

He then defended himself, drew more fire from MoI and eventually gained more and more votes.

I've seen enough wagons on town go down like this:
1. A votes B with a weak case.
2. B defends himself.
3. A attacks B for whatever he has written.
4. Bad/confused/lazy town players vote B; they don't have any suspects, so they're sheeping.
5. More back-and-forth between A and B.
6. Scum see a mislynch opportunity and also vote B.
7. Repeat steps 4, 5 and 6 as necessary.
8. Somebody drops the hammer, B flips town and everybody goes "ooooh, but he was SO scummy!" (At least sometimes you have impatient scum which quickhammer.)

Defense is useless - I experienced it myself when I was the town wagon. Everything the wagoned player does is pressed into the framework of "he must be scum".

Attacking somebody? Either trying to save his own skin, or bussing.
Defending somebody? Either buddying or defending a scum partner.
Defending a stance he's been called out? Obviously just trying to deflect.
Reversing a stance for which he's been attacked? Scummy backpedaling.
And so on, and so forth.

He isn't scum.

For

Baby Spice

, we have a similar case, only with Yos as the attacker, and the cause of the attack being an attack on ML. Again, she isn't scum.

The only case I can follow is

sageamagoo

. Let's ISO him.

ISO #0: Some reads which are mostly null-reads (zMuffinMan is leaning scum because he's leaning town and he's what he doesn't seem to be - what?, Whisper is an intelligent player, Ludi is scum even though he posted a lot.)
ISO #1/#2: Quoting mistakes.
ISO #3: Long post, but mostly quotes and very little new content (for instance, his defense for the zMuffinMan read is "zmuffin is a contradiction."). After that, he says:

That said...

I think Ice and StephanB might be scum bussing each other. VOTE: Iceguy for having the most votes of the two.

He gets heat for that stupid attack/vote, and I agree with DY here:

That said...

I think Ice and StephanB might be scum bussing each other. VOTE: Iceguy for having the most votes of the two.

I'm ignoring everything else you said to me in that post because this line alone is ridiculously scummy. First, there is no assertion for why Ice/Stephan are scum, or why they are scum together, ESPECIALLY when we know there are multiple scum factions in the game, and finally, scumhunting in terms of a scumteam on D1 is not infrequently done by scum to try to pretend to be more helpful than they are really being. This is inauthentic scumhunting and is worth voting for you by itself.

Unvote. Vote: sageamagoo.

ISO #4: He backpedals on his StefanB scum read and starts attacking DarthYoshi:

Looked through Stephan's IOS, he dosn't look as scummy as I originally thought. The bussing thing? Yeah, that isn't very likely anymore. It was more of a "What if?" statement. But Yoshi, there's something about you commenting on everyone's idea without getting in the middle of things that makes me think of you as scum.

Ice is one of the scummiest posters here, and you have nothing to say to him, instead going against Stephan. I could imagine you being on the same team as Ice.

One post before that, I was bussing StefanB. Now he isn't scum anymore, but I still am. And DY is scum with me for attacking sage and not attacking me.

ISO #5: Comments on my reads:

DarthYoshi is totally on the same team as Iceguy. I don't get the town vibes you seem to be getting, Ice. Certainly not enough to give him a full +5. Somehow, this list also seems to differ a little from what I think Ice would actually think. It seems he wants to make reads that fit other's ideas instead of using his own.

So I'm simultaneously trying to fit the ideas of others, yet completely contradicting his. I smell a contradiction.

ISO #6: Answers to some questions regarding Mafia experience and whispersilk.
ISO #7: Answers to whispersilk again.
ISO #8: I seriously don't understand what he's trying to say there. Here's the link so you can see for yourself.
ISO #9: He's happy Maxous agrees with him, and there is this little gem:

So the question then becomes, is this post coming from frustrated town or scum trying to discredit their attacker?

Where does the 'frustated' part come from?

The frustratedpart comes from scum thinking you're scum. And now I may be a target in days to come (night or day), although I really should't be.

Does anybody else see what I'm seeing? That's scum attacking me as the likely mislynch, and attacking StefanB and DY for their votes and suspicions, with a connection pulled out of thin air (I was attacking StefanB and he was attacking me, that's bussing; I have a town read on DY and he doesn't have a scum read on me, that's scumpartner defending.)

Oh, and does anybody else not see what I'm not seeing? I'm talking about scumhunting from sageamagoo.

---

You say this but yet you will not explain how Muffin has been opportunistic when voting you.
There is a reason I have kept harping on about that. And it's not defending anyone.
I see no basis for saying that and suspect you simply fabricated it to attack him. This is not even a case of simply not agreeing with your reasoning, this is a case of seeing no reason that you beleived what you were saying.
Even if you said 'oh my mistake, he was'nt really' that would of been better. But instead you attacked me calling myself and Muffin scum together.
This implies you did'nt want to backtrack with the accusation. (because that prob would seem as scummier to most)

Look, I never said "Maxous and zMuffinMan must be scum together". I said I don't like the connection between the two of you, which is still miles away from "you're scum together".

You voted me saying "I'm gonna go with this" after a "zMuffinMan calls random people town/scum" post, and zMuffinMan votes me soon after. When I attack zMuffinMan for his vote, you defend him and attack me. Don't you think that's something to explore?

I currently have a weak town read on zMuffinMan, because he now actually seems to play the game. The reason I called him out for voting was that he made a wall post full of quotes by other players, explaining he doesn't have a single town read on the BS wagon (which I wasn't on), and concluding the post with

Anyway, my vote on whisper going nowhere fast.

unvote

VOTE: IceGuy

Basically, he said, "A, B, C, D, E, F are scummy. Vote: IceGuy". And that's what caught my eye.

---

I won't claim unless I'm at L-1 and somebody expresses intent to hammer. If I'm quickhammered without being asked for a claim first, you've got your lynch for Day 2.