The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday AM for my usual weekend family duties

[Amrun]

Feysal didn't even fess up to being sk. No way that claim is vig.


I hate to do this, but....

v/la for the weekend; sick

My eternal apologies for this game.

[Feysal]

I see the town is divided on whether to wield me against their enemies, or to cast me in the meltdown pile. I would of course prefer to live, and there are some arguments I can offer in my favor.

Leashed Serial Killers are never a good idea. Why? They have no long term motivation to actually help Town.

I'm not going to argue theory with you. I recognize it would be a futile effort, and you would not change your mind. However, I would point out that you make a mistake in rigidly applying the same theory to all situations and all players. The last time I played against you I criticized you for using generic tells, by which I meant that all tells are not applicable to all players, and their significance varies. Likewise, all players do not adhere to the same theory. I claim to be an exception. I can point to evidence that I am motivated by more things than just my win condition, and you would do well to consider it.

Like Gandalf mentioned, I was a serial killer in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den. In that game, most of the town players were killed in early game, and town victory was only saved by the third parties, myself included, cooperating to bring about a shared victory with town. What is more, I kept notes during the game in a private QuickTopic, which show that I was working toward a shared victory from the very start, and not just after my role was revealed. There was but one time when I consciously chose a lesser suspect to attack, since I doubted that I could kill my higher suspect all by myself, and even then I tried to kill the wagonee most likely to be scum. I also went out of my way to alert the town to the potential danger of working with the adventurers. Doing so did not serve my own victory in any way, on the contrary I claimed I could only win with town posthumously.

This is the only time I have ever been third party. You say that the average serial killer would have no long term motivation to help town. I do, and I have displayed this in a past game. Can you say that your theory and examples of other players would be more important than this example of how I handled a third party role?

[Espeonage]

Mod: V'LA for this weekend. I may be able to get on but not sure. Will likely be away around this time on a fortnightly cycle.

[Furcolow]

Feysal can win with the town, though

[Furcolow]

or at least I can still

[Empking]

or at least I can still

Who do you need to kill?

[mockingjaye]

I haven't had a chance to read D2 yet; I'm sorry. It's almost 6 am here and I haven't slept, but I will post later today, when I'm coherent again. Here's a preview, though. Kanye is still scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Hi all.

I am writing this with a heavy heart. Something deeply personal has come up in my life. I will be unable to think mafia, let alone play it, for at least the next four days, and perhaps more.

Mod, it is up to you what you do with this slot. If you want to wait on me, keep in mind that four days is a very rough guess, it could be many more, and I make no promises. I'm sorry to force you to look for a replacement like this.

I hope your hopes and prayers are with me for the next short while, guys, it's a great community here and I hope i'm able to get back as soon as possible.

Regards,

Ludi

[Andrius]

Hi all.

I am writing this with a heavy heart. Something deeply personal has come up in my life. I will be unable to think mafia, let alone play it, for at least the next four days, and perhaps more.

Mod, it is up to you what you do with this slot. If you want to wait on me, keep in mind that four days is a very rough guess, it could be many more, and I make no promises. I'm sorry to force you to look for a replacement like this.

I hope your hopes and prayers are with me for the next short while, guys, it's a great community here and I hope i'm able to get back as soon as possible.

Regards,

Ludi

All will be well.
<3

[Plum]

VOTE COUNT #2.1

Furcolow - 1 - Espeonage
Feysal -

5

- Mastermind of Sin, Furcolow, Dekes, Empking, Andrius
VitaminR - 2 - Herodotus, Gut
Dekes - 2 - MagnaofIllusion, SpyreX

Not Voting (10): Magister Ludi, Sun and Moon, Ellibereth, mockingjaye, Feysal, kanyeknowsbest, VitaminR, Will-o-wisp, Wraith, gandalf5166

With 18 alive it will take 9 votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 will be on October 13th; exact time will be determined soon but basically when I feel like it.

I also realized I made an error regarding number alive/votes to lynch all of Day 1. It's kind of embarrassing but we'll just forge ahead.

Regarding my recent V/LA, thank you all for your patience.

Currently searching for a replacement for Magister Ludi. If it so happens that he wants the slot back before I get a replacement I will be happy to let him keep it. In the meantime I wish him all the best.

[Ellibereth]

/weekend vlas and all that
will try and make time tomorrow because I've sucked so far

[Herodotus]

VitR made uncharacteristically many accusations (and not particularly good ones either ("slushy snowballs" if you get the reference (which you probably don't))). He's scums.

Do we have to do this again? WHY? You can't read me. I know this, you know this. Stop just thinking I'm scum for no real reason when you know this.

You're concerned with their (there's two of them) overall ability to read you, but not their reasons for thinking you're scum?
I'm not sure that that is a scumtell or a towntell, but it's odd.

(I expect it's the type of oddity that passes for a scumtell in the MS community. I'm not sure whether it is one, but if it gets scum lynched...)

Though for them I seem to be easier to read when I'm scum.

I'm not sure, but I think that technically speaking, readability has to be independent of alignment, almost by definition.

MOS post 439 holds gandalf (and implicitly andrius) to an unreasonable standard of role PM clarity for a bastard game. Besides, why bother arguing that a player is a jester?

Because if a player is a jester, we *don't* want to lynch them. Since gandalf had exhibited jester signs, we were better off having a vig NK him. Which apparently Feysal failed to do.

I don't think that lynching a jester is much worse than vigging them (wagon analysis is damaged, but either way, it's a town-controlled kill expended, a necessary waste of time), but I recall there was something about you actually

arguing

that gandalf was a jester that seemed off.

@Andrius: who were the scum trying to save Feysal with the counterwagon?
(Not sure if that's still relevant given Feysal's claim, but it stood out to me that he left that unanswered - from post 906, I think.)

@Manga: Are you guaranteed that the people posting in the QT are who they say they are? I know this is paranoid to ask, but can you confirm that it isn't possible that faraday/mina are faking AGM's posts?
Regarding gandalf, it's not clear whether the seraphs have the ability to restore a character's memory... if they don't, then surely they wouldn't assume gandalf is lying, as there would have to be some such mechanism, and if they do, it seems like that would have been an early priority.

The way you're treating those people who should be on your short scum list differently based on how they view you is disturbing. Especially SpyreX comes here to mind who's way sheepier than I've ever seen him and apart from role playing has been solely reactive the whole game. And he was on both the early gandalf and the final Pere wagon. And yet you're giving him a pass on giving reasons for the Pere vote and can only muster a half-assed dig at him. You need your sheep this game or are you actually trying to read those people, too?

This whole paragraph is an exercise in undermining. Much better than your old reaction to pressure (angry OMGUS … Lost Season 1 vintage) but very reminicient of how you reacted in Battle for Olympus. You don’t outright come out and call me scum but lay the groundwork for later with phrases like “is disturbing” and “You need your sheep” (indicating I’m not really looking for reads).

This paragraph is also at odds with earlier statements from you. Before I had “too many scumreads” for your taste but this seems to indicate I’m not finding enough people properly scummy. Those are on some level contradictory. Either that or I am just finding the wrong people scummy.

I see no contradiction between the claim that you're accusing too many people of being scum and the claim that you're ignoring some people who "should be on your short list".

The only reason I did that is because I switched into BlazBlue and by default I had to ask for an extension and it looked like Plum just gave it to Herodotus.

I have no idea what you just said.

I think what Spyrex was trying cryptically to say - or not say - was: "@gandalf, if Andrius's role is related to your role, do you think he's anti-town based on your identity?"

His win condition is like "must survive to endgame" not "must kill town"

He might be SK, but we can force him to kill where we want him to

I hope Feysal is town
his claim was shitty, though

Do you actually know his win condition, or are you

speculating

figuring it out based on public information?

@Magna: you want guaranteed scum?
Then vote for VitaminR.
Or S&M, if Feysal agrees to kill him N2. But I think S&M would make a better vig kill, given that it's their lurking that's scummy.

Dekes and Wraith look like townies based on their posting prior to the Pere wagon.

Please elaborate ... especially in regards to Dekes.

It was some specific post(s)... I think they may have been at the top of a page... around 27? I'll try to get back to it. How high of a priority is this though, if Feysal is 75% likely to be lynched today, and Dekes isn't next in line?
At a quick glance: I suspect it was the things he said to Empking in posts 625-633.

I assume Feysal is not the second player with QT access; is that correct?

Why would you say I 'burned some crediblity'? You just recently epicly fence-sat on me saying, in effect, "MoI is scum right? Or maybe not. Can't tell". How would I have any significant credibility in your eyes if you had suspicions I was scum.

Does Not Compute.

I don't have a read on you, but that doesn't mean you don't have some town credit. A few things that stand out about you:
Faramina, a presumed town seraph, presumably thinks you're town, and I assume this is partly based on their believing that they can read you well.
You've been talkative, making long posts, but I'm pretty sure you'd do that regardless of your alignment.
You've accused a variety of people of scumminess, which is a very slight towntell because it means you're not afraid to be on the receiving end of OMGUS reactions.
With respect to Dekes in particular, I think your accusation is overblown. I don't think there was logical support to the idea behind your argument.

Agree with Spy. I see no reason to say no to an extra de facto town controlled kill. Added pluses here are that 1) Feysal's one of those players to whom helping the town comes naturally and 2) I see no reason why his win condition need be mutually exclusive with ours - odds are he'll win simply by surviving long enough.

I guess he's not as bad as an actual SK but we need to really dictate his kill every night (and this makes his kill much more vulnerable to outside messing with). If we give him a list, he'll just kill those that are also on his list and we have no idea of whether his list is town- or scum-sided or balanced. PLUS, he's claimed non-town-aligned and could EASILY be lying about important details of his claim, e.g. whether he needs to survive, what kind of killing/recruiting abilities he has, etc.

He probably has a list of role names, so he doesn't know which players are "on his list", meaning any kill is equally good if it helps him survive, unless people start claiming role names.

@Feysal: do you need to survive in order to win?

@Magister: in case you're still reading, I wish you well.

And now, I'm caught up, other than needing to go back and recall what convinced me dekes was town.

[Espeonage]

Ok back Doesn't seem like much happened.

[Wraith]

I've lost track of things right now. But with that complicated a wincon claimed, and with Furc to vouch for it, I don't want to lynch Feysal today.

Vote: kanye

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Herodotus: My point is that I have no inclination to help a third-party jester win when we can be lynching scum instead. I trust myself to be able to find scum better than I trust random vig X who I don't know. If I have to choose whether to use a town lynch to help a jester win or a town vig kill to make a jester lose, I'm going to choose the one that gives us a better chance of getting scum with the other death and has the added bonus of not letting a jester win when they have failed to fool us and thus don't deserve the win.

[Feysal]

He probably has a list of role names, so he doesn't know which players are "on his list", meaning any kill is equally good if it helps him survive, unless people start claiming role names.

This is correct. I don't know which players are my targets, if I did, this would be easy.

@Feysal: do you need to survive in order to win?

No. I only need to outlive my targets.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Like Gandalf mentioned, I was a serial killer in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den.

Feysal ... just a quick question - Didn't those games have a point system that rewarded goals and made it possible for mutliple factions to win?

If so I'm not going to bother with addressing your argument since it really doesn't apply to the standard Serial Killer wincon in games. And I have to consider you a Serial Killer who thought he was busted by the Seraphs and made a "Hey, I'm a quasi-friendly 3rd Party role" claim to stall for time.

Of course you may not be lying. I can't know but it would be against Town's best interest (and my Wincon) to not assume the worst and work from there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back Doesn't seem like much happened.

If somehow enough of you don't want to lynch Feysal Esp HAS to be on the short-list (or hung today).

@EVERYONE

- Also to let you know ... AGM has basically just claimed Scum Seraph in QT by asking for a Modkill on Mina / Faraday (yes, it was in a humerous fashion). But the post leaves little room for doubt that he has just accepted his fate.

[gandalf5166]

Like Gandalf mentioned, I was a serial killer in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den.

Feysal ... just a quick question - Didn't those games have a point system that rewarded goals and made it possible for mutliple factions to win?

If so I'm not going to bother with addressing your argument since it really doesn't apply to the standard Serial Killer wincon in games. And I have to consider you a Serial Killer who thought he was busted by the Seraphs and made a "Hey, I'm a quasi-friendly 3rd Party role" claim to stall for time.

Of course you may not be lying. I can't know but it would be against Town's best interest (and my Wincon) to not assume the worst and work from there.

Wrong. Even if he is lying, he's going to be behaving as if he weren't, which means there's no reason not to leave him alive.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wrong. Even if he is lying, he's going to be behaving as if he weren't, which means there's no reason not to leave him alive.

Gandalf ... you aren't changing my mind on a Game-play theory point. Especially with your ever convincing arguements

[Andrius]

Ok back Doesn't seem like much happened.

If somehow enough of you don't want to lynch Feysal Esp HAS to be on the short-list (or hung today).

@EVERYONE

- Also to let you know ... AGM has basically just claimed Scum Seraph in QT by asking for a Modkill on Mina / Faraday (yes, it was in a humerous fashion). But the post leaves little room for doubt that he has just accepted his fate.

I bet this is happening right now:
Thor is MIA
AGM is claiming scum out of boredom/notgivingafuck
mina is being indecisive
andy is sad that no one loves him enough to give him a role

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm starting to question the reliability of MoI's information at this point... -.-

[Andrius]

Why?

[Andrius]

Like he said earlier what reason does he have to lie?