Open 11 - Pie C9 (Game over) - before 400

[Patrick]

Vote: Shadowlurker

seems like a strong move.
I've played pie c9 before. I will say this, if we lynch the mafia roleblocker today, and the remaining mafia member fails to kill a powerole night 1, there is a forced win for the town.

[Patrick]

Ok, say we lynch the mafia roleblocker day 1. I didn't mean a failed nightkill, I meant if the last scum only manages to kill a townie. That would leave the following on day 2:
1 mafia goon
1 cop
1 doc
2 townies

I'll assume absolute worst case scenario is that the cop has no useful investigation result (they investigated the townie you got nightkilled). The cop and doc claim and are immediately cleared, leaving 3 suspects. Lynch one, if the game isn't over, go into night, doc protects cop, cop investigates one of the remaining suspects and the last scum is lynched day 3. Forced win. Obviously it doesn't work if the roleblocker is alive because they would block the poweroles.

[Patrick]

That's not really the attitude guys...
It's not down to luck today, but down to how well we play and how much good discussion we have.

[Patrick]

If this continues to go nowhere, the mod just might add a long, retractable deadline.

Definitely not needed this early. We've hardly started yet.

[Patrick]

I misattributed that quote. But yeah, we definitely don't need deadlining yet. We're still only on page 1.

[Patrick]

Sounds awkward.

[Patrick]

Ernie, what would you say or do if someone placed a third vote on you right now?

[Patrick]

Yeah there was no strat discussion last time really. I'm not proposing alot of talk about strategy, but thought it would be useful to get that out there so everyone knows.

[Patrick]

Hmm Nightfall. Can you be trusted? Not the last two times I met you at any rate

[Patrick]

If anybody was able to suggest any kind of strategy at all, it would at least give us something to talk about. I think maybe this setup was designed to be strategy proof, unfortunately. And anyone who brings up a poor strategy is at risk of being attacked for it.

Hmm, this talk of strategy is a bit strange. Certain games do need a strategy discussion, this is just simple pie c9 though. The only strategy I can think of I've already put out there, and though it's perfectly sound, we can't exactly put into action unless we're in a very specific situation. 'Lynch the mafia roleblocker' isn't really a strategy since the entire point is to lynch scum anyway.

I'll

unvote, Vote: Nightfall

because his last post felt a bit insincere (I played crap both times we've played together ) . Though I feel pretty mean to vote for a reason like that but we simply have to get discussion going somehow.

[Patrick]

Yeah, pretty much old newbie games were like this but without the mafia having the roleblocking ability. This was clearly in the towns favour. The addition of the roleblocker completely knocks out any plan with the cop claiming day 1.

[Patrick]

All fair enough observations. I think we should have other ppls comments on this. Twito managed to make a post that said less than it seemed after I switched my vote to Nightfall.

[Patrick]

Unvote

I don't believe claiming is a very good idea. Do you think that there's enough against you to push for a claim?

[Patrick]

HE said NOT willing, so it doesn't look that scummy to me, more just a post in a joking matter. Though Patrick's switch is kind odd, but we don't want a bandwagon lynch, so it isn't that odd. Just think it's something worthy of notice.

Fircoal, you misunderstood it. He said he was more than not willing - that means he is willing. What do you find kinda odd about my switch?

[Patrick]

Fircoal and Patrick are a likely scumpair.

I'm not really feeling that scumpair.

[Patrick]

I took my vote off because he was at 3 votes based on very little. It didn't feel like enough to ask for a claim.

[Patrick]

It's out of boredom that nothing seems to be going on.
Why did Ernie intend to hammer Nightfall? It's too early and any case against him seems minimal.

Unvote, vote: Ernie

[Patrick]

But that's not a majority on him, isn't it? I just skirmed through the thread and I think he's just got 4 votes.

Seems to think there's a majority on Nightfall. Since there were no votes since his, I assume he though, at least briefly, that he had hammered.

[Patrick]

I'm still feeling my Patrick vote.

Explain why and we might get somewhere.

[Patrick]

You could argue that. I went off the post where he said "That's a majority on him?" But yeah with two contradictory posts there is room for doubt about it. What he did was still pretty dodgy, he put someone at -1 based on no real reason and seemed to invite a hammer. Still I'm not clear on why you're voting me though.

[Patrick]

Interesting. So why did Ernie place a third vote on his scumbuddy and encourage a hammer? It's not the scumteam that would come to my mind first.

[Patrick]

I wouldn't consider bussing your scumbuddy on day 1 of a pie c9 game to be excellent play, especially with so little justification. If Ernie was doing that, he'd run the risk of walking into all kinds of forced losses on day 2, either by being busted by the cop, or just by the town creating enough confirmed innocents to win. Not that it's impossible he'd do it of course, but it's not what comes to my mind first.

[Patrick]

I didn't much like post 152. It felt off.

[Patrick]

Ernie, you seem to have little idea what's going on in this game. First of all I am voting you. Secondly, I'm not pointing fingers at random. I can see now that you weren't necessarily intending to hammer. That doesn't make everything alright. You still put someone at lynch-1 for no good reason and speculated on whether someone would hammer or not.

[Patrick]

Guys, can you stop with the spamming please, it's just in bad taste. There's no reason to be so happy about the lack of content (unless you're scum).

I went through it and there is nothing to be found.. or I'm just not finding. Patrick representating Ernies vote as if Ernie had tried to hammer is still the scummiest thing I found in whole thread. There was the promised SL post almost a week ago but as mod straightened that out aswell.. really nothing. It's SPAM LAND! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I already questioned you about this, and you replied that you actually don't understand why you're voting me either. If you plan to keep bringing it up, then give a good reason why it's scummy.

I am voting Ernie, and tbh I don't even think what he's done is that scummy, but it's the worst I see. His last post worried me, because it seems like he's not reading the thread at all. For someone like Twito, who wants to make a fuss over my alledged misrepresentation of Ernie, I'm surprised he didn't pick up on Ernie's misrepresentations of me there.

Apart from Ernie and Twito possible link, I see Fircoal as slightly scummy, firstly because I don't recall him posting much content or trying to stimulate the game, and secondly post 152 which seems a bit too parrotty/sucky upy. He basically takes Ripley's top two suspects and puts them together as a prospective scumteam, even though (in my opinion as I explained) they don't make much sense as a scumteam. He then praised Ripley on his post and copies Shadowlurker in calling him pro town. It just seemed a bit too passive. That's about it.

[Patrick]

Mod

could you just replace Ernie please?

[Patrick]

It's wearing thin Fircoal.

[Patrick]

SPAM = Short, pointless, annoying messages. What you and Fircoal have been doing.

[Patrick]

I don't think that I've spammed at any point in the game. I don't know about spam being scummy. It might show a certain level of happiness with the fact that nothing is going on. And scum are probably feeling happy right now with the level of participation. Mostly though, if at some point ppl want to look back over the thread, they have to sift through the junk to find relevant things, and that's not helpful.

[Patrick]

Fircoal, where are you from if you don't mind my asking?

[Patrick]

I'm confused about that. Your last post doesn't make sense. It seems that you first said that you were disproved, then 5 posts later you asked what reasons there were for Nightfall/Ernie not being scumbuddies. Those two things don't make any sense together.

I gave some reasons for not thinking they're scumbuddies in my post 155.

[Patrick]

Just to comment on Ripley, since I haven't actually done so yet. I've seen him make decent posts as scum too, in fact he pretty much had me sold that time. Nonetheless, it would be pretty easy as scum to let a game like this one stagnate, so I tend to take his post at face value. I'm currently more interested in CDB and Fircoal than Nightfall. I don't think there's much going against him, though I think the mod should prod, maybe replace him. I know he's been struggling to keep up in certain other games.

CDB, elaborate on this please:

Ripley's case on Nightfall sort of disappeared - people basically said "Ripley looks protown" and then talked about whether that was a null tell for him. If it had been just one person doing that I would have FoSed them for trying to take the heat off a scumbuddy, but quite a few people did that, so I can't. Nightfall, could you go back and answer Ripley's post about you, please, and if you did, please tell me where it was as I must have missed it. Until then (and possibly after), FoS: Nightfall

If I understand right, you think there may have been some scum strategy to take heat off Nightfall (presumably scum in this scenrario) by talking about Ripley? Why would that distract us from Nightfall? It's not like anyone was making a case against Ripley for making a useful post, and with the lack of discussion, nothing would stop the town from talking about both things at once anyway.

[Patrick]

That response seems fine to me. What are your suspicions Nightfall?

[Patrick]

Not much time to post now, though I'll probably see if there's ANYTHING meaningful I can dig up later. I feel that Shadowlurker may need replacing. If we are lynching one of the spammers my preference atm would be Fircoal.

[Patrick]

Unvote, vote: Fircoal

because I've had a few bad vibes from him and CDB does seem ok at this stage.

I'm pleased that we're getting a replacement for Shadowlurker, since at the moment I don't have the slightest idea about his alignment. Twito may also need replacing since I think he's having all sorts of problems with his connection.

[Patrick]

HI SKRUFFS. Show us the light

[Patrick]

Mod

, I think I'd like to take you up on that offer of a deadline extension. Cheers.

[Patrick]

I agree with your suspicions of Ripley. And so the game I'm playing is called Follow the leader?

This strikes me as oppotunistic. I could see a Skruffs/Fircoal scumteam here, and would be happy lynching Fircoal.

[Patrick]

CDB and Ripley seem quite reasonable to me.

Shadowlurker's last few posts were focussed on Ernie/CDB, the relatively easy target. Skruff's first serious post of the game felt off, and I didn't really agree with the attack on Ripley, which seemed to misrepresent him in certain ways. Indirect attempt to save Fircoal perhaps, while maintaining a wishy washy stance on him.

Fircoal's last post set off alarm bells too, since I don't think he ever voiced any suspicions of Ripley before, and I think was last seen calling him pro town. I think he does seem to play follow the leader too much. My guess is Ernie was just the lynchbait and Fircoal is scum.

[Patrick]

Recommending someone hammers him, since no lynch is pretty bad in a 7 player setup.

[Patrick]

Also Fircoal, if you plan on claiming, now would be the time.

[Patrick]

Remember, if he claims mafia roleblocker, lynch him and we go for the win via the Patrick plan Where you from Ripley btw? And whats the timezone?

[Patrick]

Another englishman. Excellent.

Being a lazy student, no lecture until 1 pm tomorrow, I'll be around a while longer

[Patrick]

Well well. That's interesting. The mods post tells us that all choices were in, so scum certainly didn't miss he deadline. So we probably had a successful doc protect.

[Patrick]

I thought about it, but we shouldn't be hasty. Cop could have been roleblocked, or could have investigated the doc or the guy protected, or maybe scum no killed so it doesn't guarantee 4 players cleared.

Something to think about though.

[Patrick]

A no kill on night 1 of a 7 player game is pretty rare I think. In this setup, the scum would forfeit a chance of hitting a powerole, which doesn't seem too clever to me.

[Patrick]

I'm happy enough with the cop claiming if they have a result and then we see where we are.

Twito - mind actually posting some content?

[Patrick]

That's true Ripley. There would be no benefit to the cop staying hidden in that case because the scum would know who he is. The cop coming forward in that case would give us him as confirmed if there is no counterclaim, but would make him useless as long as the mafia roleblocker lives.

Still, with luck, the cop wasn't blocked. I support the cop claiming. Then maybe the doc depending what we get from the cop.

[Patrick]

Yes, I too would like Skruffs to elaborate on the alledged slip by the mod. Incidentally I don't really think that a mod should have posted something like what he said in the last post, but that's another story.

As I see it, cop claiming period, is better than cop claiming only if he has a result, as pointed out before by Ripley.

[Patrick]

No. You need to prod CDB and Twito.

[Patrick]

Thinking about it, if we mass claim, we'll likely get 3 confirmed players, assuming scum didn't try to block and kill the same player. That's assuming no counterclaims of course. I think it's a decent idea. If we get counterclaims that still gives us information to work with.

[Patrick]

I'd like Skruffs to go fairly early as well.

[Patrick]

Lol. Personally I am not that suspicious of Nightfall, and would happily see Skruffs and/or Twito going before him, but it might be hard to figure out an order if we all disagree. I don't especially mind where I go in the order.

[Patrick]

Sounds alright to me. Ripley can probably go last.

[Patrick]

Patrick, you're the chess player (allegedly), which marks you out as a person of refined cutting-edge logical intellect. Think of something!

I am indeed a chess player, though sadly I have no cutting edge logical intellect. I suppose everyone should post at least what order they want roughly. Keeping flexiblity I'd say something like this:

Skruffs
Twito
Nightfall
Patrick or CDB
Ripley

Reversing the first two if wanted. Nightfall has asked to go after CDB though, and CDB wants the opposite.

[Patrick]

Theoretically, I'd like to say that everyone in the mislynch yesterday should go first : That's CDB, Patrick, Nightfall, Ripley. Only in reverse, as each vote put fircoal closer. I'm curious why Patrick wants the two people who didn't lynch Fircoal to go first. Oh well, he knows what he's doing, I'm sure. I'd liek to pipe in with that, but I won't.

I find this curious. I don't especially find the players on the lynch more suspicious, in fact I could conceivebly see both scum staying off the lynch. I think you've mostly ignored the context here, that we were on a deadline. Nightfall's and Ripley's votes on Fircoal seemed to be made mostly with that in mind. Lynching someone was better than not lynching at all, and I didn't exactly see Twito coming up with a brilliant alternative lynch for us either. The last sentence is also funny, why do you want to avoid piping in with that? I could be scum like any other player from the general POV, is there some reason why I have higher authority that you're willing to bow down to?

[Patrick]

And actually,
No. While a mislynch is better than a non-mislynch, in regular 7 player, in this game, it's not.
Because we only had four townies left after the lynch, scum couldn't seal the deal like they did this time. With five players, it could take up to three nights to combo block/kill all of them, depending on who was lynched the second day. So no, lynching anyone was not better than lynching nobody at all. Lynching nobody at all would not have streamlined this game so effectively for scum.

I believe no lynching on day 1 of a 7 player game is a bad move. Obviously, if we no lynched, and went to night and the doc stopped a kill, then great, we're back where we started, but with more information from the night. But we weren't to know that there would be no kill at night. And yes, lynching a townie is worse than not lynching, but we can only say that with hindsight. Only the scum knew before that he was a townie.

Lastly..
Are you saying that you think me and Twito, who didn't lynch fircoal, are more likely to be a scum team than every other combination in the game?

I don't know about more likely than any other in the game, though I'm certainly considering it.

I'm *real*curious about this: Why is it that you want Ripley to have the pleasure of claiming, last? You do realize the person who claims last has the most freedom to pick and choose through claims, right? You've effectively partially claimed already by saying that. Razz

I just think he's likely town so I wouldn't mind him going last. I didn't realise I'd partially roleclaimed by saying that.

[Patrick]

I'd say we just all claim in the given order, no responses until it's all done. At least, I think that's how it's usually done.

[Patrick]

btw. Are we doing it where people claiming poweroles claim their targets immediately or do they want until everyone claimed?

[Patrick]

Easter time! I'm going travelling for 2 weeks! Smile Whoohoo Twito will come back!
I still try to post in the middle as 2 weeks is a bit long time to disappear completely..

Hi.

We may need Twito replacing, but in the meantime, let us continue with this gripping show. CDB is next.

[Patrick]

I believe he's been around, since he posted an April Fools joke in one of the other forums.

[Patrick]

Completely kills the eyes doesn't it.

[Patrick]

I'm a townie.

[Patrick]

Nightfall being a powerole doesn't surprise me at all, I was getting that vibe. He is cleared, and hopefully has a helpful result.

Ripley and Twito need to claim who they protected, followed by Nightfall claiming his result if any.

And I'm really really surprised patrick claimed townie.
I thought for sure he protected or inspected Ripley, based on how trusting he seems of the guy who hammered the day before Razz

Again, you seem to be putting far too much on the voting record here. It doesn't bother me that Ripley hammered Fircoal, I would have done the same in his situation. I'd be more suspicious if he'd lurked around deadline and done nothing. As I pointed out before, no lynch is ridiculous in this setup on day 1.

[Patrick]

And as I have pointed out, under further consideration, there actually is nothing wrong with nolynching, compared to random lynching. It definitely benefitted scum to mislynch
far more than it would have hurt us to nolynch.

I think you keep missing the point Skruffs. Sure, no lynching is better than lynching a townie. But we didn't know Fircoal was a townie until the mod told us. You aren't going to convince me that no lynching is a good idea on day 1 of a 7 player game.

Anyways, that aside, you were still acting very trustworthy of ripley before and during the setting up of a claiming process; I had assumed that it was because you knew something, but now I'm just suspicious. Considering the biggest argument against twito/fircoal yesterday was that they were acting way too friendly with each other, it makes sense that people would not be so open about their faith in each other today. Anyways.

I don't think I've been overely protective of him, and I think he's town based on posts. I don't think that I suggested stringing up Fircoal based on being chummy. I didn't like some of the things he said, such as the suggestion that Ernie and Nightfall could be scum together, as well as the blatant sucking up in the same post. He also didn't do a good job explaining his thought process to CDB later on. I'll grant that the spamming didn't exactly make me feel better about him either. I don't think Fircoal or Twito's play are comparable to any chumminess between me and Ripley.

I agree with Channel Delibird's last post, that is also the scumpair that I'm seeing at the moment.

[Patrick]

I have never gotten a scumvibe from Patrick. Not sure if I've ever seen him as scum.

Last pie c9 would be the game you've probably tried to forget

[Patrick]

I'm suprised that my supposed defence of Ripley came across that strongly. From what I was saying on day 1, I'd have thought it was clear that I wouldn't have investigated Ripley if I were a cop. Anyway, Twito, give us the goods.

[Patrick]

Well from your POV, if you really are the doc, there is no damage from letting Nightfall go first because you know Twito is scum. For those of us who don't know, it's better for Twito to go before Nightfall.

[Patrick]

Mod

can you prod Twito please, just to make sure that he does visit this game if he manages to get online.

[Patrick]

Hmm. This is annoying. Ripley, maybe you should give your reasons for protecting me, just for something to talk about, unless there is some good reason why you think that might help scum. Still definitely want to wait for Twito before Nightfall gives his findings though.

Skruffs - what are your reasons for thinking Ripley is more likely to be the real doctor?

[Patrick]

The Fonz, we're massclaiming and you're up. Claim your role.

[Patrick]

O rly. Nightfall, you're up.

[Patrick]

Also Ripley, you can go wild now with your reasons for protecting me.

[Patrick]

Patrick has already suggested that it is more likely that scum weren't on the lynching wagon at all, than that they were, which while I know to be inaccurate, also seems illogical at best - I'd like to peruse some nerbie games (Similar setups) and see the likelihood of one vs both vs none of scum to be on the wagon.

I think this is an interesting point, beyond the ramifications for this game- testing Stoofer's law. I've got an hour or so free, so I'm going to try to go thru the 50 or so most recent games in which a protown player was lynched day one, and see what proportion of those were with one, two, or none on the wagon, and which of those most often led to a scum win.

Stuff like this so makes me think that you two are scum together. Seriously. Of course in the general case, not being on the lynch on an innocent isn't a scumtell. That would be silly. I'm not suggesting a Skruffs/Fonz scumpair

because

the two of you weren't on the lynch on an innocent. There are other things that point me to it as well.

What

is

a scumtell in my opinion, is the number of times Skruffs keeps harping on about it. He seems extremely eager to take credit for the fact that he wasn't on the Fircoal lynch, and keeps trying to throw suspicion on those that were, and comically suggests that a no lynch would have been a viable option on day 1. Fonz's case against Ripley also seems to be based largely on this. I don't buy it. I've played in a newbie game before where both scum were off the day 1 lynch of a townie and constantly came out with the "I told you so" line the next day. I'm also not especially clear on Skruff's stance on the two claimed docs. Which one do you think is most likely to be legit, Skruffs, and why?

----

If Nightfall wasn't roleblocked last night (which I tend to think he wasn't - otherwise he wouldn't have been quite so eager on the massclaim plan), then the scum know he has a useful result. Knowing that, I think a doc claiming scum would be less likely to claim to have protected their partner, because it would contain more risk. I too think that we should have Nightfalls result at this point.

[Patrick]

Yet you seem to be harping on about how you don't think we can tell anything from the voting record. Which is convenient, considering both you and Ripley were on the lynch.

Your scumbuddy is the one who was bringing it up, I was responding. I think that it's easy to try and get us to look at it in the general sense, whilst ignoring the context of the situation. Do you think that a no lynch is a viable option on day 1 of a c9 type game?

[Patrick]

No, I don't. But that's not the same as saying Ripley did everything in his power to try to avoid a mislynch.

This would seem to undermine your case against Ripley then. To reply to the part you addressed to me there:

Apart from, he did hang around. If he were really convinced Fircoal was scum, why did he not hammer as soon as he was sure? No, he hung around, and waited to see if any pro-town player would be helpful enough to drop the hammer and incriminate himself. Only when the threat of deadline nears does Ripley feel safe to hammer:

I'm not really getting what you're saying here. I don't think Ripley ever said he was "really convinced" that Fircoal was scum, did he? As I see it, he waited for a claim, then hammered. I'm not getting what part of that is meant to be scummy.

And what makes you so certain, if I were scum, that Skruffs is my scumbuddy? Sounds to me like you're pandering for CDB's vote here.

I'm not actually certain, though it's fairly common to say it in that way to get better reactions or simply for fun. A Skruffs/Ripley pairing is incredibly unlikely, so if Skruffs is scum, I'd be pretty confident you're the other. Skruffs/Ripley requires me to believe that all their arguments are staged, and that scum no killed on night 1 for some reason.

[Patrick]

So which doc do you think is more likely to be telling the truth Skruffs?

[Patrick]

Ha. I was going to do my long rebuttal to The Fonz, then Nightfall came out with his result. I knew it. So Fonz is scum, Ripley is the doc. Let's hope Fonz is the scum roleblocker, though I have a slight feeling scum wouldn't have committed their roleblocker to a doc claim.

If he's the goon then we have to choose between Skruffs and CDB. My feeling is Skruffs is his partner, especially from some of their recent postings.

[Patrick]

Simul posting galore. Fonz could be the goon who's trying to get us to speedlynch him and not talk enough about Skruffs/CDB. If he really is the roleblocker, his scumbuddy might as well confess now because we've got them.

[Patrick]

If it really is Fonz/CDB with Fonz as the rolebocker, then I'm thanking my lucky stars, because Skruffs had me fairly convinced it was him.

[Patrick]

If he's targetted CDB, then having you onside and pushing the Patrick/Ripley scumpair leaves NightFall with a really hard decision day three.

Explain this. You've just claimed to be scum with CDB. In which case you know a cop investigation on him would come up guilty. Yet you're saying that if CDB was checked by the cop, you'd be pushing a Patrick/Ripley scumpair, which doesn't make any sense.

[Patrick]

Oh right. Well, i'd suggest the mod just ends this now if we have a genuine confession here.

[Patrick]

That was a disjointed sort of game. Similar to the c9 game I played with Ripley before - town did nothing much at all on day 1 then won due to poweroles.

Re Ripley, he was the most obvious town of the lot, so I pretty much assumed the Ripley hate was all scum propoganda. I thought he was a strange choice of investigation on night 1, especially when Nightfall seemed to think he was town as well.

Skruffs, lucky Fonz was the roleblocker and not the goon I mainly suspected Skruffs because he kept trying to put around the idea of people who didn't lynch Fircoal being great and people who did being bad. And the suggestion about no lynching on day 1 didn't make much sense. Hmm. And he seemed to be hedging his bets on the claimed doctors, which was why I kept asking him which one he believed. The only connection between Twito and Ernie/CDB that I can think of offhand was something I'd remarked on much earlier, where Twito made that pretty pedantic case against me for apparently "misrepresenting" Ernie. Maybe Ripley and Nightfall would have set me straight about Skruffs/CDB, I'm not sure which way they were leaning.

Cheers for the game. It seems like I'm getting alot of vanilla townie roles.

[Patrick]

You missed out 253, that was the one I was referring to when I talked about scum staying off purposefully to say "I told you so" on day 2. That was the second newbie game I played in, and my first win.

[Patrick]

I was just a tiny bit worried about what would happen if Nightfall suddenly announced that Ripley was scum