Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[Azkar]

Alright .. scum hunting time .

random.org says I should

vote: Fircoal

.

[Azkar]

Vote: Azkar

for being scum, scum are the people that want to lynch me.

Aww .. that must not be a very friendly scum-buddy you have, then .

[Azkar]

Lynch all liars?

[Azkar]

Feels like a "safe" post. Random.org to not be held responsible and the ultra-townie smilie with enthusiasm and reassurance that scum is the enemy.

Unvote: Seol,
Vote: Azkar

Based on very little, but it's a start.

Well, I guess if you really want to grasp at straws .. *shrug*

Seriously, though, is random.org any more a suspicious reason for voting someone than any of the other reasons offered, so far?

I guess I'll try to curb my excitement about the next game I play . I admit it, I'm an impatient person. I waited through the queue, I waited through the confirms stage, and I was just happy about getting into the game.

[Azkar]

Your defense comes down to reasserting the fact that you're pro-town. That doesn't mean much as a defense, which is why it can be seen to reveal a need to re-affirm the underlying assumption that everyone is pro-town. Basically, stating that you're pro-town reveals a guilty conscience, and the possibility in your mind of it being untrue.

This line of logic is really starting to get at me. I mean ... it's just too convenient, don't you think? Fircoal said the post didn't seem like a scum post, and that casts a suspicious light on him, because it asserts pro-townieness? Well, really, who

isn't

going to assert a pro-town inclination? I don't think we'll see many people here trying to say they're pro-scum.

unvote

vote: VitaminR

Not much to go on, but it's a start.

[Azkar]

Blech .. I'll

unvote

, for now. There really isn't much to go on here, it seems. It would be nice if some of the other players dropped in to offer their perspective .

Right now, we've got VitaminR voting for myself, based on a perhaps overly enthusiastic first post, and we have Thesp voting for Fircoal over .. his defense of his defense? The rest, I think, were random / joke votes.

[Azkar]

My vote is now also based on:
1) Your defense of Fircoal.

Did I really defend Fircoal? I thought I was more defending myself, by speaking out against the sort of logic that was being used against both of us. Honestly, Fircoal hasn't really said much in the game to make me think much, either way.

2) Your eagerness to vote me.

Because you're innocent, obviosly, right?

As for the reasons behind my vote, his defence of Fircoal and weak attack on VitaminR then subsequent unvote just convinces me of his scumminess.

I'm still new to this game. I'm trying to get a feel for the right directions to take. Maybe my attack on VitaminR was weak. I still think his attack on me was weak. At least I'm willing to admit it, and back down for the moment.

[Azkar]

Did I really defend Fircoal? I thought I was more defending myself, by speaking out against the sort of logic that was being used against both of us. Honestly, Fircoal hasn't really said much in the game to make me think much, either way.

Could you show me how is it the logic that has been used against you?

Your first comments about me:

Feels like a "safe" post. Random.org to not be held responsible and the ultra-townie smilie with enthusiasm and reassurance that scum is the enemy.

And your later explanation of Thesp's probable motives in voting Fircoal:

Your defense comes down to reasserting the fact that you're pro-town. That doesn't mean much as a defense, which is why it can be seen to reveal a need to re-affirm the underlying assumption that everyone is pro-town. Basically, stating that you're pro-town reveals a guilty conscience, and the possibility in your mind of it being untrue.

Maybe it was a more tenuous link than I thought it was, at the time. But that's the only point I remember saying much of anything about Fircoal.

The thing that is keeping my vote on you at the moment is mostly the strong sense of connection between Fircoal and you.

This, I'm afraid, is just strengthening that:

unvote: Azkar
Vote: Theopor_COD

Thanks for explaining your current reasonings. I can see how the perceived connection between two players can be seen as suspicious. It seems a pretty obvious tell, though, and a really poor strategic move to show that much public support for a scum-buddy. It was nice having at least one person sticking up for me, but I don't pretend to know his motivations. I'm sure Fircoal can provide more insight into his thought processes than I can.

[Azkar]

I would also like to hear from Avinyl and Seol.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing.

I'm pretty sure I saw Seol posting in another game, earlier today. I hope he hasn't forgotten about us .

[Azkar]

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

[Azkar]

The last few posts have brought up some interesting points.

I've mostly changed my mind about my earlier suspicions on VR, but am looking forward to his response to Seol.

I think my reasons (a few posts up) differ slightly from Thesp's, but if I had to choose someone, right now, as being most suspicious, I'd lean most towards theopor. We'll see what he has to say, though.

Is Avinyl still around? The last post I remember from him mentioned internet problems ..

[Azkar]

Last night, I had put off placing a vote until I had had more time to mull things over. I also wanted to hear back from a couple of the players in this game.

I've slept on it, and after reviewing the recent updates to this game, I still find that theopor stands out the most. I'm not really buying his latest post. I don't see VR's earlier post to be making a joke out of anything, and I doubt anyone else did. And if someone casts suspicion on me, yeah I'm going to try and explain my perspective. I don't think it would be good for anyone if I just tried to skirt the issue.

I get the feeling that theopor's found himself with some doubt cast on him, and is trying really hard to try and justify his past actions. It doesn't really seem sincere to me, though.

vote: theopor_COD

That puts theopor at lynch -1. I think we've had enough discussion here about premature hammering that I can trust no one will do so?

[Azkar]

I can see how it can be read as less than absolutely serious, though. The phrasing is a bit over the top ("ultra-townie smilie," for instance) and we were essentially still in the random voting stage.

To a certain degree, I guess. I'd still draw the line between less than absolutely serious, and joke. You raised points that were relevant to the game, at least. If you'd just voted for me, saying that you thought I smelled like an elephant's butt, I probably wouldn't have felt compelled to respond .. except perhaps to question your parentage .

I get the feeling that theopor's found himself with some doubt cast on him, and is trying really hard to try and justify his past actions. It doesn't really seem sincere to me, though.

I have to say I disagree. He explained his vote then too.

He did. Not very elaborately, but he did. Then when some people started questioning his motives, he came back with a new explanation that was largely unrelated to the old one. What he based his new reasonings on was an early post in the game; something that was already in existance when he originally made the vote. If he had found it suspicious, it would've been nice for him to bring it up, then.

I now see he's recanting a bit on the new reasons, and falling back on the tried-and-true Azkar/Fircoal alliance theory.

I'm saying that Theopor_Cod didn't really believe the argument and thought that if he changed his argument now, he'd come off as scum. That's what I'm starting to think, but it's just a theory. But if that is true, he is scum.

That sounds somewhat along the lines of what I've been thinking. He made the opportunistic bandwagon vote, but now it's not working out for him. If he stays with it, though, he has a basis to say that it wasn't an opportunistic bandwagon vote.

---

These are my reasons for voting theopor. Part of it is gut feeling. His posts just don't come off right, to me. He's lurked for most of the game, popping in to make a couple of attacks that honestly come off as really weak, and lacking in real substance. His main reason for placing his vote on me continues to be the supposed link between myself and Fircoal, which only seems to exist because people kept on saying it exists.

[Azkar]

I've been trying to absorb some of what's happened over the past few days, so I appologize for the lack of recent participation.

I still find theopor's actions bizarre. Earlier he said:

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

When Seol asked him to elaborate on why he thought his suspicion of my defence was scummy, he said:

First question re- the foolish vote on Azkar, it was pretty foolish because the 2 mafia could have come along and hammered him, unless one was already voting him and the other didn't want to raise suspicion, looking back I shouldn't have jumped on the bandwagon especially with Fircoal's first vote being a random one and the argument hardly concrete.

Doesn't really seem like he answered the question at all. Instead, he's changed his tune yet again. It was no longer foolish to find my defence scummy, now it was foolish to place a lynch -1 vote on.

Then we have:

My reasons for doing so remain Azkar's defence and subsequent attack on Vitamin, however I may have been slightly too hasty.

...

Oh and lastly Unvote.

He still believes that I was acting scummy, yet he unvotes. The only reason I can really see may have been if I was in any danger of being hammered. As it stands, though, theopor was the only player currently voting for me. Maybe I'm no longer as fasionable a target as I once was? The wagon's dispersed, so I guess it's time to move on?

So, I still find theopor's actions suspicious. At the very least, he's acting increadibly oddly.

---

As far as the recent back-and-forth between Seol and VR ... I'm still not really sure what to make of it. Seol makes some valid points. I did initially find VR's earlier attack/explanation (wording depending on who's side you're taking) to be suspicious - hence my earlier VR vote. It's possible VR's later posts explaining that it wasn't really an attack really

were

an act to distance himself from a poorly executed attack.

On the other hand, Seol seems to be taking a sort of logical absolutist stance. It seems a bit of a falicy to presume things are always black or white, right or wrong, scummy or not scummy. There are in-betweens. Actions that, when in combination with other actions, present a scummier picture.

For the moment, theopor's actions seem the scummiest to me. I'll watch the Seol/VR debate more to see if I can make anything out of that ..

[Azkar]

The problem is that it wasn't a poorly executed attack. I see it as good logic and I could have easily used it as a platform to attack Fircoal from.

Without getting into whether it

was

an attempt at an attack, or an attempt to cast suspicion, I'll say this: if your intent were, indeed, to put Fircoal into a bad light, I'd say that it was poorly executed. Not because the logic you used is faulty, per se, but because it doesn't seem entirely applicable to the situation Fircoal was in.

As I understand it, it started when you pointed out my initial post as being potentially scummy. Fircoal commented that he didn't think it seemed that scummy. When you raised the possibility that Fircoal's defence could be seen as interesting, later in the game, he defended his defence with the statement, "The only reason I defended him, was because it didn't seem like a scum post."

Now, Fircoal's certainly guilty of making a useless circular defence, but I don't

really

see how it becomes an assertion of pro-townieness. Maybe I'm reading things from a slightly different perspective, but the first defence from Fircoal came accross to me as, "It didn't seem suspicious to me." The second defence just restated the first. It was a non-defence, really. He doesn't explain

why

he didn't find it suspicious, just that he didn't.

The avoidance of explanation can be telling in itself, I'm sure, but that's not what you brought to our attention.

[Azkar]

I'm here, I'm here. Sorry, folks, long weekend here. I thought I'd be around more than I was. That and the e-mail notifications don't seem to be going through at the moment

First, theopor's defence. It's compelling, I admit. My opinion of him has improved over what it was, previously. That said, I don't think it completely exonerates him. It comes off a little dramatic. "Oh please,

please

, don't lynch poor naive meee." We can all agree he hasn't played this game as well as he could have. But is he poor town or poor scum? I still think the early plays line up more with poor scum play. The latest round of pleas come off as a little desperate.

---

Next, VR's starting to worry me, some. His attack on Seol for (apparently) not restating his position at the conclusion of their debate comes off as a little contrived. I think Seol made his position fairly clear, and it doesn't reflect well on VR to try and indicate otherwise.

Azkar has avoided the Seol/me debate.

Well the Azkar wagon could of been seen as either way, and the debate was not understandible by me and Theopor, so maybe Azkar didn't understand it either.

No, he did. He commented on it. He didn't take a stand, though.

Just to address this ...

Yes, I understood the gist of what was going on. Some of it went over my head, and that's why I took as much time as I did before commenting on it at all. And, no, I didn't take a firm stand. I had mixed feelings about the exchange, which I tried to convey. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to take a definitive position when I don't know exactly where I stand.

I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol.

Theopor is at 2 now (Fircoal unvoted), I don't think he need claim.

Also, he forced a claim from theopor on a third vote when there has been no indication of anyone wanting to put on a fourth vote. This allows someone who normally wouldn't have theopor to go "ah well, at worst he's a townie" and hammer him.

Also, (and I'm adding this as I eat breakfast) Seol really had no right to ask for a claim. Thesp is still in need of a re-read and he could, for instance, realistically switch to Seol.

All this focus on Seol's request for a claim seems odd. Theopor had been at lynch -1 for quite a while, with two others willing to vote if it wouldn't cause a lynch. I don't think it was unreasonable to ask for a claim. Fircoal's unvoted, but that's irrelevant to the request for claim, since the unvote was

after

theopor's non-claim.

I'm not seeing the difference. I ignored the wagon (along with the rest of the game - not that that's justifiable, just trying to put it in context), which therefore links me and Azkar. Thesp, who actually was here, was ignoring the wagon, and it's a sign they're not linked... except that if Azkar is scum, it's a black mark against Thesp (i.e., it's a sign they're linked... if it suits you).

There's a big difference. You avoided the wagon, you didn't ignore it at all (you commented on it quite definitively when did you post).

I'm afraid I really don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw, here. I'd think ignoring the wagon

completely

would be a more suspicious act than at least acknowledging it, if maybe a little late.

---

I'd really like to see a meatier post from Avinyl. I don't have much to go on, with him. He lurks a lot, and posts little pot shots, here and there. There doesn't seem to be a lot to back up his shots, though.

---

I think that's all I meant to comment on. I find theo slightly less suspicious, and VR slightly more. Most of the other players I have a hard time getting a read on. Seol's a very good debater. He's probably either being very helpful or very unhelpful.

I don't think my positions have changed enough for me to change my vote right.

[Azkar]

I don't think so. Half of those voters hadn't acknowledged theopor's defence and his defence made a visible difference to some players in the game.

But .. the request for claim was

before

his defence! Seol may be many things, but a prophet, I doubt. You're twisting things around. Seol made the request for claim at a point when there wasn't any reason to think anyone's position was going to change any time soon.

[Azkar]

Also, Azkar, it is important to realise that none of the other voters were up to speed with the game. There was really not enough justification to ask for a claim.

I don't know .. I wouldn't have said there was much to get up to speed on, at that point. There was a lot of back-and-forth between you and Seol, but it wasn't really anything new.

I was and have been referring to Seol's second request for a claim. The one that led to a claim.

The fact that Seol, after theopor posted a defence after the first request that led to an unvote, just repeated the request, despite not having heard from Avinyl or you, only makes it worse.

Hm. I must've missed Seol's second request .. or if I did see it, I didn't think very much of it. I don't entirely blame him, though, for still wanting a claim. Here's how I see the situation (and I know you'll disagree on the first point):

Theopor was in a situation where just about everyone in the game found him very suspicious. It's a point in the game where it's generally considered appropriate and neccessary to claim. He was

told

by one of the players that it would be a good time to claim. Instead, though, he deliberately avoided claiming. It makes it look like he's got something to hide.

That said .. I think you're blowing the claim thing out of proportion. From the games I've read, it's not at all abnormal to ask for a claim in the situation theopor was in. Nor were Seol's requests particularly urgent: "I think a claim is probably in order," and "I still think a claim is appropriate." No, "You need to claim, now," or "Claim now, or someone is going to lynch you," etc.

It's a pattern I'm seeing in your attacks on Seol, picking at small things, and twisting them out of proportion.

[Azkar]

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

Avinyl needs to post something with more substance. His posts and attacks feel really weak, because he doesn't offer anything to back them up. It could be a sign of lurking scum, or it could just be that he's not a very talkative person. It would set my mind at ease, though, if he gave us a nice meaty post.

Thesp doesn't really raise any alarms for me. What he's posted has been fairly logical, and good. Still, it would be nice to hear more out of him .

[Azkar]

I agree with your points. Can you give a scum list. Scummiest first.

theopor_COD. I don't fully buy his defence post. I'm open to hearing more from him, though.
VitaminR. His recent line of attacks ring false with me. They come across as nit-picky and contrived.
Seol. Generally helpful, but I don't know how far I can trust him. Some of his earlier reasonings against VR came across as fairly weak.
Avinyl. Quiet. Still waters run deep?
Thesp. Generally helpful, generally logical. A little bit lurky.
Fircoal. Not really feeling much scum-factor from you.

[Azkar]

Azkar, I've noticed you're basically doing Seol's end of the defending.

Well, I'm trying to point out how your recent actions have come across to me. I can't really do that without bringing them up, and since the lion's share of your recent actions have been attacks towards Seol ...

I also find it fairly unsurprising that I'm high on your list of suspects. In fact, judging by your recent list, you should pretty much be voting me.

I've thought about it, yes, but I'm not really ready to change votes. You did build up a lot of goodwill, earlier in the game, and it's really the recent activity that's been bothering me. That, and I don't know how far I'm willing to trust Seol, at the moment.

[Azkar]

I don't know .. I wouldn't have said there was much to get up to speed on, at that point. There was a lot of back-and-forth between you and Seol, but it wasn't really anything new.

I don't see how you can say that. It was enough for Fircoal to unvote. Also, it was a couple of pages. That is essentially half the game.

Sorry, I think we were talking about different stages of the game, again. I thought you were talking about the first request, since you had said, "There was really not enough justification to ask for a claim." The second time around, the request was already been out there, so I didn't think that statement applied .. .

[Azkar]

That attitude is exactly what bothers me. Assuming that the justification still holds ignores everything that happened in the meantime, when there were strong indicators that the general consensus could change significantly.

Well, whether the request was still justified at that point, it was still out there. I'm not suggesting I went through a conscious thought process to decide which statement you were referring to; I just assumed it was the first, based on how I interpretted the situation. If you had said "ask again" or anything along those lines, I would've interpretted differently.

[Azkar]

You do seem to pick his side in every single detail of it, though. You seem to disagree with me completely on all of it.

Maybe .. I'll have to look over things again, when I have some uninterupted time. I know his first attack on you bothered me, somewhat. I posted a little on it, but it was resolved (well .. "resolved") before I got around to posting more,

[Azkar]

I don't feel great about it, and don't make this decision lightly, but I'm going to ask to be replaced. It's nothing to do with this individual game, or the people involved. I just feel that the game of mafia isn't going to be a good fit for me, in terms of time and focus commitments.

I've found it harder and harder, lately, to gather the time and interest to go through the ever-growing number of posts in the game, and make meaningful contributions. I'd wanted to stick it out to the end of this game, at least, but I'm thinking that might be a far ways off . I think it'll be better for the game to have a set of participants that are all able to give the game the interest and attention it deserves.

I know it's an inconvenience, so I'm sorry for that . Good luck to everyone, though.