Mini 436 - Game over - Mafia wins with no casualties!

[DeathSauce]

here we go!

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

until he tells us what the 'B' stands for.

[DeathSauce]

Vote: Deathsauce

because he's DeathSauce. And Death Sauce sounds kinda deadly.

Everyone knows that DeathSauce is only deadly to scum!

IGMEOY Hurrikaty!

[DeathSauce]

I think it's a mistake, it looks like vollkan was voting Albert B. Rampage

[DeathSauce]

"Full many a truth is oft told in jest."

That pearl of wisdom, combined with that mysterious B, makes me happy with my vote.

[DeathSauce]

I disagree that there is nothing scummy about Rampage. His "joky" behavior on page one and two is something I have seen from scum, and seen referenced in other games.

Rampage and Miztef seem to be backing each other up an awful lot.

In post 47 Rampage quotes Miztef (and Hurrikaty) and simply says "QFT".

Post 52 Miztef writes " There is nothing about Rampage that is very scummy, so stop trying to make a bandwagon on him. ok? ok." I don't like this statement at all.

Post 56 Rampage says "I like DeathSauce and Miztef, but don't trust Snichkin"

Post 58 Rampage says to ryan "That's because you and Miztef summed things up pretty well"

I also don't like that they are asking for lists of how you feel about other players. That is a tactic used by scum to help them decide who to NK.

Since my vote on A.B.R was random, I will

unvote

.

But I have my FOS on the two of you.

[DeathSauce]

My vote for A.B.R was random. We're beyond the random stage, so I unvoted.

I can easily reinstate my vote, but I'm happy with a FoS for now

[DeathSauce]

I follow VanDamien's line of thinking perfectly clearly.
Contrast these two statements from you:

Statement 1 at 5:30pm :

Expect (the) mafia allies to put their vote and hammer this dude.(Snichkin)

Statement 2 at 5:42 pm

vote: Snichkin

You seem to be predicting your own scummy vote.

vote:Albert B. Rampage

for being the scummiest player I have ever seen. Every single post he makes just makes my spidey sense go into 4 alarm mode.

[DeathSauce]

Hehehehe you can't kill me.

Who is this quote directed towards?

[DeathSauce]

Good to see you back in the game Paradoxombie! Might we see a little more in depth analysis?

So far you've posted four times, all one sentence. That is pretty much the definition of lurking.

[DeathSauce]

Oops, five times. Shoulda previewed.

[DeathSauce]

post limit?

[DeathSauce]

Care to explain the "worse vibes" comment in further detail? I wouldn't mind seeing some reasoning behind votes at this point. I think we are past the random stage.

[DeathSauce]

OK, I have no idea what you mean, but it is a pointless argument and does nothing to further the game.

[DeathSauce]

Thanks ABR, but no one was asking you to claim, and you have all of two votes on you. Nice threat there at the end, too.

I believe that sets a record for scumtells in one paragraph:

Over-reaction to having TWO votes on you? - check!
Early claim? - check!
Vague sinister threats? - check!


Either you are scum or the worst townie ever.

[DeathSauce]

Mod, please prod darhken. He has one post in this thread, 6 days ago.

[DeathSauce]

Number one: ryan, DO NOT let Albert persuade you into making or denying ANY CLAIM WHATSOEVER. All you do is provide more information to the scum, who already have more information than the town.

TopHat, I have re-read Hurrikaty's and ryan's posts and I don't really agree with your conclusions. Not that ryan isn't a bit suspicious, and I would like to see more participation from Hurrikaty.

Oh, honestly I was just trying to break all the scum tells to make a point.

So you were suspicious of Snichkin for trying to make a point, and now you are doing the same thing? Or is it possible that you are trying to camouflage your earlier mistakes by saying it was all "to prove a point"?

[DeathSauce]

LACPTTPARPP

Ha! I like this theory. I am also going to start voting lurkers here pretty soon, we've got a few people that aren't contributing anything.

[DeathSauce]

Act like scum, get lynched. That's the way the game is played. Laugh all you want, ABR, but even if by some chance you are town, once we are shed of you it makes it easier for us to track down scum.

Your posts contain no logic, no explanations, no understanding of the game. You throw out seemingly random comments supporting individual players, but don't back them up with any reasoning. That gets us nowhere.

[DeathSauce]

Reading the link provided by ABR, it says nothing about "taking down" a person of his choice or the hammer vote. It says the bomb kills the first person that voted for him that day, which in this case would be me.

It's supposedly a "pro-town" role, but Albert has not been playing as a pro-town player. I don't see any reason to believe his claim, the role is uncommon, Albert is giving his role more power than it actually has in an attempt to frighten us from his lynch. If the claim is true, I am dead meat, but I'm willing to take the chance.

[DeathSauce]

Also, after reading the link provided by our moderator I would like to call attention to this point:

All I can say is that this game follows the normal game rules

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

"Psychopath" is in no way a standard role. I think that puts the lie to ABR's claim once and for all.

[DeathSauce]

Albert , you are correct. I did stop reading after the first mention of roles and did not see that next paragraph. However your role as quoted by you still doesn't conform to the role description in the wiki.

Miztef, you say that the person "the majority of us agree is scummy" should place the hammer vote. What if I think you are the second-scummiest player behind Albert? If the majority of us feel that way would you be willing to drop the hammer?

[DeathSauce]

I'm also a one-shot killing role capable of killing the night after I die.

Since I don't think that Ryan, Miztef or DeathSauce are scum, they will be safe tonight if you decide to lynch me.

Which is it? You kill the same night that you are lynched or you kill the night after? You contradict yourself.

This has added an unexpected wrinkle. For now I will

unvote

I am torn on whether to vote for Snichkin or Stalling Champ for not participating. But Stalling Champ has slightly more content to his (few) posts.

Vote Snichkin

Mod, please prod Snichkin and Stalling Champ, and what is the status of darhken?

[DeathSauce]

Yes, thank you. That does make sense.

[DeathSauce]

Miztef, please answer my question from post 172:

Miztef, you say that the person "the majority of us agree is scummy" should place the hammer vote. What if I think you are the second-scummiest player behind Albert? If the majority of us feel that way would you be willing to drop the hammer?

[DeathSauce]

Here's my thinking on this so-called pro-town Psychopath roleas described by ABR. The only way it would work to the town's advantage is if no one knew about the role and the scum speed-lynched the Psychopath. The hammering scum would be dead and ABR could NK someone else he viewed as suspicious.

But now the role is known, scum probably aren't going to be willing to off themselves to hammer a player that has this strange ability. They are going to look for a way to twist the formerly"pro-town" Psychopath role to their own advantage.

Not that any of this means that I believe Albert's claim for one minute. I don't.

I also don't understand why everyone is so sure we have a Vig in this game. I am not nearly so positive and I will not follow any voting strategy that depends on a Vig NK.

[DeathSauce]

I just re-read the entire thread, and I am going to shift my position on Albert 180°.

I think he's telling the truth.

All of his mysterious posts actually make sense when read with this new information in mind. He tried to obliquely refer to his role without giving it away. He was consistent. He put off claiming until it was absolutely necessary. I can't believe I'm saying it, but I really think that is his role.

With my fresh perspective, I am now quite suspicious of TopHat, but my vote will stay on lurkers for now.

MOD: Snichkin and StallingChamp are active in other games, I don't understand why you don't want to prod them.

[DeathSauce]

I'd rather risk the consequences of killing him

Even if the consequences of killing him are the deaths of 3 pro-town players? That would really suck!

[DeathSauce]

To me, He is most likely his psychopath role, next most likely is an anti-town psychopath-like role, and next is scum.

I agree with this, that's how I see it too.


Is anyone else in for slowing things down until we get a replacement for darhken and some response from our two lurkiest players?

We are going along at a good clip here, but without 100% participation it is going to be hard to do anything.

[DeathSauce]

Bah!

Unvote

.

I can't keep my vote on a replacement player.

[DeathSauce]

Welcome DogMom, I'd like to see you be able to include everything that's happened in this Day into one of your (in)famous Wall O' Words!

[DeathSauce]

Here's my latest re-reading of the situation, in brief.

Albert's goal seems to be to make it to Day Two.

No explanation until day 2 for you

if I'm wrong I won't even last until Day2.

we can do as Miztef said and lynch me on Day 2

also reference his bet with VanDamien which was engineered to get him to survive until Day Two.

I'm not sure what the significance of surviving an extra day is, but it seems odd. The fact that Miztef seemed to have the same goal is possibly useful information.

[DeathSauce]

How about we let the replacement players catch up before you start another bandwagon campaign?

[DeathSauce]

Albert, I really despise your play style in this game.

The funny thing is that you cannot punish me for a bad play, because I do not care whether I win or lose this game. It is an experiment.

I don't like being experimented on. You may not care if you win or lose, but it is apparent you wish to survive to Day Two. Therefore, you are wrong, we

can

punish you for bad play, by denying you your wish.

[DeathSauce]

I think a good strategy now is to start voting lurkers. It gets very frustrating to keep seeing posts from the same 6 people. Hurrikaty's posts are the absolute definition of lurking.

Vote: HurriKaty

. FOS TopHat

[DeathSauce]

It would really help if someone could sum up the game in like.. one post for me, so far.

No problem. Game started, you lurked, you're scum!

I guess that means you have to vote yourself.

[DeathSauce]

In case it wasn't clear, ryan's point is the one I was trying to make. You know better than to count on anyone else's interpretation of what's happened in the game.

[DeathSauce]

An appeal to emotion as a reaction to a lurking charge? That is just not an appropriate response.

My initial vote was just to try to get you to participate, but even though you've "posted more in the past few days", you haven't added anything of substance.

[DeathSauce]

Hurrikitty has said little to add to the contributions, but meh, I don't think she's lurking.

I understand your reasoning behind voting katy, but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon yet.

I do not agree with tophat's post. It is possible that ryan/hurrikaty are mafia, but your evidence does not "confirm" it.

I severly dislike tophat's post about hurrikaty and you being mafia

I don't like hurrikaty's lack of posts, but I'm not gonna lynch her over it at this time at least.

Hurrikaty is 'ok' in my books

I dislike Hurrikaty's lurking, but I'm getting the feeling she will post content soon anyway, I don't feel there is a need to pressure her more at this time.

Miztef, you spend an

awful

lot of energy in defending Hurrikaty. Any particular reason for that?

[DeathSauce]

Okay, explain how any of those statements is "out of context"?

[DeathSauce]

Well, it looks like defending to me. And since Hurrikaty doesn't seem to see fit to defend herself, someone else leaping to the task strikes me as curious. In fact most of the time that someone tries to explain another player's actions, it makes a little 'ping' on my scumdar.

Like the way you jumped in for Miztef just now. 'Ping'

[DeathSauce]

First it was "out of context", now it's "craplogic". I am not making a federal case out of it, I was simply asking Miztef a question. You don't find it curious that there are so many references to Hurrikaty's innocence? That's fine. I do.

[DeathSauce]

Uh huh, and the chances now that Hurrikaty will post within the week are..........

[DeathSauce]

@ryan: WHAT? Why the hell would Hurrikaty be replaced? She has said she is "RIGHT HERE" and has "posted more in the past few days".


I don't see how she is cleared even if she suddenly starts posting eleven paragraph PBPAs. It is apparent that she has been lurking AS A STRATEGY and now that strategy has failed. Only a complete fool would continue a behavior that has been called out and identified as anti-town.

[DeathSauce]

@Miztef - You originally said that we should "force" the player seen as most scummy to place the hammer vote on ABR. If a consensus is reached that Hurrikaty should place the hammer vote, do you still support that strategy?

[DeathSauce]

We are using the same term differently. By "lurking" I don't mean "not posting".

Lurking by the other definition is to post just often enough to appear to be participating, without adding anything meaningful to the discussion.

This is anti-town behavior, as it gives no fresh perspective, no information for the town, and gives us no insight on her views on other players if she is NK'd.

For what reason do you not believe she is intentionally posting this way? You have no better insight than what she has posted in the thread. What makes you trust her intentions in a game based on mistrust?

[DeathSauce]

I also don't want to vote off a potential townie and drop our numbers and make it easier for the mafia to win

Thanks, but I hope that would be obvious. What is your opinion of Miztef's apparent (to me) defense of Hurrikaty? Do you agree with StallingChamp's analysis that I took her quotes out of context?

[DeathSauce]

Oops, Miztef is a "him". My apologies!

[DeathSauce]

Here's another reason why active lurking is anti-town. It forces us to have this lengthy discussion about it. If Hurrikaty is town she has wasted a lot of our time and effort in finding the actual scum and has has subjected another potential townsperson (Miztef) to suspicion for defending her.

[DeathSauce]

What in the hell?

Albert has to be the worst Doc ever. And losing the Cop and Doc on Night one really hurts! Time for a MAJOR re-read!

[DeathSauce]

Anyone else getting the "Exceeded Bandwidth" error message? That's all I got today, so I am just going to try to post this quickly.

I am very suspicious of Van Damien. I don't like his reaction to ABR's death and he is pretty quick to vote here in a LYLO situation.

More tomorrow if I can post!

[DeathSauce]

Oops, sorry about the disappearance, but it looks like I wasn't alone. Where did everyone go?

I can understand your suspicion ryan, but the fact is HurriKaty played anti-town and that's why I was after her. Obviously more than a few others agreed. I have not really had the time to do a proper re-read, as I've been trying to get ready for a big backpacking trip next week (see the Vacation thread), but I promise I will do so today.

[DeathSauce]

OK, I am day late, and I wish I had something grand and earthshaking to say, but SO MANY of the pages of this thread are about ABR!

I felt that he was probably scum, and I was suspicious of those who seemed interested in letting him live until Day 2, because I didn't understand the motivation. It is obvious now why ABR was so determined to make any deal that would let him survive until Day 2, and I'm a little upset with myself for pointing out that that seemed to be his main goal, because it may have tipped off the scum about his true role.

We're probably either 6:3 or 5:3:1.

Wouldn't it have to be 5:3:1? Obviously there are 2 Night killing entities. That's why I thought it was dangerous to come out with a vote immediately after night. If you are town then the 3:1 can quicklynch on Day 2. I'd rather have a few more pages of discussion before anyone votes.

[DeathSauce]

Try quoting that entire 3 paragraph post before you accuse me of not delivering any content in it.

more worried about the ratio of town to mafia than actually finding mafia

I was clarifying a point made by another poster, why have you come out more than once against our trying to determine what forces migh be working against us?

Congratulations, you just made my scumdar screen.

FOS:ryan

[DeathSauce]

Also, could you be more of a hypocrite? How can you attack that post when you made THIS post, quoted in it's ENTIRETY, just yesterday!?

Sorry vollkan but I agree alot of these threads are on ABR, and it's hard to see anyone else except that crazy bastard (lol) I'll get a more detailed post as time permits this week

[DeathSauce]

Just letting you guys know I'll be in the mountains for the next 4-5 days, so no posts from me.

[DeathSauce]

Hello, I have returned safely to civilization.

Interesting, there seems to be plenty of suspicion of me being bandied about, with no actual evidence of anything scummy.

Ryan keeps trying to harp on my lack of content, but I have been at least as active as the average player in this game. Ryan has a lot more posts, but I would argue actually contain less content. Ryan intentionally misquoted me just one page back by isolating ONE sentence from a 3 paragraph post and presenting it as the entirety of the post, while at the same time agreeing with my analysis.

Vote:ryan

[DeathSauce]

Also FOS at Van Damien for this:

Paradoxombie and DeathSauce are scum

with absolutely no supporting data or quotes.

I am leaning toward a Ryan, Van Damien, Miztef scum group. There seems to be a common front from the three of them, agreeing with each other about who is scum without bothering to explain any of it, hoping that mere repetition will sway opinion.

[DeathSauce]

Para has a couple of votes on him from (IMO) pro town players.

I just noticed this. The two voting Para are Miztef and Van Damien! I have to say I was not expecting such a blatant slip-up and it only confirms my belief that the three of you are scum.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Paradoxombie 1 (VanDamien)
DeathSauce 2 (ryan, Miztef)
ryan 1 (DeathSauce)

Not voting 5: TopHat, Paradoxombie, Trustgossip, StallingChamp, vollkan

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[DeathSauce]

So three people think somebody is scum and so that means they have to be scum together?

Yes, especially when they offer no evidence other than just constantly agreeing with each other that so-and-so is scum.

As far as your asking me a question in post 249, I don't remember reading in the Terms of Use that I had to answer every question put to me by another player. I will answer your questions as I feel they are relevant, I am under no obligation to do so.

You were upset at me for misquoting you or only taking a few lines, yet you did the same thing earlier?

Uhh, I was not claiming anywhere in that post that it was the entire post, which is what you attempted to do with me by implying that there was no further content other than what you quoted. Completely different situations.

Than you leave June 7th and fast forward to post 548 where you throw suspicion at myself, Miztef and VD with the argument that we don’t have any evidence or content to back up our claims. The post is more defensive than it is helpful in finding scum.

It just so happens that I think it was extremely helpful in finding scum, since it laid out exactly who I think the scum are. You are the one that has been asking us all along to post what we think about everyone, you should be very happy with that post!

[DeathSauce]

Wow ryan, your posts have taken on a completely different tone, I guess I struck a nerve!

[DeathSauce]

You fingered three people scum because they voted you

Wrong, you are the only one that has voted for me. Don't try to pretend that this is an OMGUS move by me. The fact is that the three of you have been acting in concert for the last 3 pages, taking minor digs at each other, but always managing to find the same players suspicious.

I'm confident enough in my claim to post about it, the question is, are you?

What does this mean? I have been doing nothing but posting about what I think since I got back.

[DeathSauce]

EBWOP: I see at the top of the page that Miztef has also voted for me. I honestly did not notice that in my reading of the thread.

[DeathSauce]

I will not bother with this ridiculous back and forth. I'll let the rest of the town re-read the interactions between ryan, Miztef, and Van Damien, and make their own decisions. It's pretty plain that the three of you have gotten a little too confident due to your successful Night One.

Your constant attempts to lead the voting are about as scummy of a behavior as I have seen, all starting with Van Damien and ryan being

very

quick to vote on Day 2, even though it was possible we are in a LYLO situation, a situation in which we need to be

very

careful with our voting.

[DeathSauce]

There were two night kills. That means there is quite possibly a SK. A townie placing a vote early in Day 2 allows the 3 scum and the SK to quicklynch. Therefore placing a vote early on Day 2 is a bad idea.

Admittedly this is less of a problem in a game that is apparently missing 2 players, but the basis of the theory is sound.

[DeathSauce]

Yes, but it would be too late to do anything about it. Lynch of a Townie + Scum Nightkill + SK Nightkill = Town loses.

[DeathSauce]

Anyway, now we get to a point where general consensus is narrowing down to either DeathSauce or Para

Geez, if this isn't a blatant example of "leading" I guess I've never see one.

Every time I re-read I become more and more convinced that ryan, miztef, and VanDamien are the scum. Each of the rest of us has been on the receiving end of their suspicion, it's time we lynch one of them.

[DeathSauce]

Uhhh, I am not pretending that everyone else believes that you 3 are the scum, setting up false dichotomies, or any of the other elements of "leading". I am stating my own belief and what I think we should do. If you can't see the difference, then I wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse.

[DeathSauce]

Vollkan, the false dichotomy was in the excerpt I posted from VanDamien. He (falsely) claims that the general consensus is that Paradox or I is scum.

[DeathSauce]

Vollkan, I'm sorry that I didn't check the

wikipedia

definition of 'false dichotomy' before I posted.

I still see VD's post as an attempt to frame a "false choice", if you prefer that term, of voting for either me or Paradox. If you can't see the co-ordinated effort between VD, ryan, and Miztef by this point I am helpless to help you. I'm at L-2 and if I get lynched the game is lost.

[DeathSauce]

To address the point that the bulk of the suspicion was on me and Paradox at the time of VD's post.

Don't you think that if there were three scum acting in concert in addition to four basically non-participating players that the scum's opinions will have the most weight behind them? Basically you are saying that the consensus was on me or Para because the scum said so.

[DeathSauce]

I'm not trying to scare anyone. I am a vanilla townie. Unvote me or the game is lost.

[DeathSauce]

Way to completely ignore my post 592 in your response, by the way.

[DeathSauce]

Thanks Miztef, completely unnecessary, and yet not unexpected.

Vollkan, unless you change your mind, it is impossible for us to lynch the actual scum in this game. You keep perceiving this as a "threat" but it is a statement of fact, if I am lynched the town will lose.

[DeathSauce]

Well then we are sunk. In my opinion you, vollkan, paradox and I were the only pro-town players left participating.

That still isn't enough to lynch scum, but at least we could have gotten close and maybe gotten one replacement player in the game.

[DeathSauce]

here is a strong basis for suspicion against Death

There is? I just see the three main suspects agreeing that I am guilty without providing any real evidence!

I had thought that the collaboration between ryan. Miztef, and Van Damien would have been obvious to a simpleton, but if it is necessary to save my skin I'll post a full analysis with quotes from posts.

Hell vollkan, you even pointed out one that I missed in post 560

[DeathSauce]

That seems pretty chancy to me Miztef, especially when it's my neck that's on the line!

Rules:
Please read before you start playing!
-Not following the rules could get you modkilled, depending on which rule.
-The game will start in Day 1.
-After you received your role PM you have to confirm by sending me a PM.
-

During the day the players have to vote like this:

Vote: Lawrencelot.

If you switch votes you have to

unvote

first. You can also

vote: no lynch

. If your vote is not in bold it will not be counted.

Lawrencelot says the votes "have to look like this" which implies but doesn't state that tiny type isn't permitted.

It seems to me like that would have been a clever "out" for a scum. If the hammer fell on me, the thread is locked, then the next day you can come in and say "But I did a double-secret unvote!" It's too late and you get the bonus of being able to promote the player that dropped the hammer as scum.

This strategy is especially dangerous when we have an unknown second NK-able entity.

[DeathSauce]

I saw someone do it in another thread (it failed there, and the scum won) but I thought I'd try it out here anyway.

Wow.

[DeathSauce]

I have made my views abundantly clear. I realize that there is still suspicion on me, but this schism in the ranks of who I believe to be scum is the only chance we have to lynch scum with the non-participation factor.

I assume it will come as no surprise that I will

unvote, vote:Miztef

.

One thing is for certain, unvote. Death, I still find you probable scum, but Miztef moreso. Vote: Miztef

I will say this, VanDamien was the only one of the 'triad' that I was somewhat uncertain of. I still find you to be

probable

scum, as you say, but I didn't think you deserved a vote. Your willingness to vote Miztef affirms my doubts about your scuminess to a slight degree.

[DeathSauce]

2. I don't think what Miztef did proves he is scummy. At best it shows that he set himself up to look good no matter what the outcome of a lynch, which is only FOS worthy, in my opinion.

Sorry, but this just baffles me. A player uses a highly questionable tactic in the game and then comes right out and says that they saw it used in a game where it gave the scum the win, and you think it it's only FOS-worthy? Do you need Miztef to actually announce that he is scum? Because what he's done is just one step short of that.

Vollkan, the reason that Miztef isn't answering your question is because there is no answer for him to give other than the real one that he has already given, he saw it used in another game as a successful scum tactic.

[DeathSauce]

had found there to be a strong case against Death and felt confident he was scum. On that note, I still have suspicion of Death (his readiness to vote Miztef is another point here),

I don't know why my willingness to vote Miztef would be another point. I can't possibly have made myself more clear on who I think is scum in this game. If there is a chance to join a wagon for a successful lynch on a player that I think is scum, I would be the worst townie ever by not doing so.

I still would like to see an actual post of substance of

anything

that I have done that appears scummy so that I can address it. All I have seen in the last three pages is posts saying "DeathSauce seems scummy", not a single one saying "DeathSauce seems scummy because..."

[DeathSauce]

What happens at 3:3, or any even split like 2:2, 4:4, etc.?

It doesn't explicitly say so in our rules, but in most games the mafia wins when there are as many of them as townies

Mod edit
Votecount:
Miztef 2 (VanDamien, DeathSauce)
DeathSauce 1 (ryan)
VanDamien 1 (Miztef)

Not voting 5: TopHat, Paradoxombie, Trustgossip, StallingChamp, vollkan

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[DeathSauce]

You have to be kidding me. Miztef said "It failed there and the scum won." That certainly seems to link it as a cause and effect by any normal interpretation. Even if it isn't cause and effect, why would any pro-town player use a tactic that they saw in a game that even

indirectly

led to a scum win?

The reluctance by the two of you to vote for Miztef is incomprehensible.

[DeathSauce]

I think it is justified to say that since Miztef's unvote has no gain for a scum it is not evidence that he is scum.

But it

does

have a gain for a scum, which I pointed out in post 607.

In response to your questions:
1) No, probably not surprising.
2) If it worked I would have thought it clever, but also slightly underhanded. My feelings would have been "mixed" is probably the best way to put it.
3) I think it's likely that both a and b could have occurred ,but I would have been dead and unable to react in the game.

I have a quick question for you vollkan. What if I had been lynched and Miztef never brought up the miniature unvote at all? That seems to be a possiblility no one has mentioned.

[DeathSauce]

I did it because I wanted to progress the game without just stating that I wanted to lynch Deathsauce.

So you wanted to lynch me, but unvoted me? Why would you do that? If you wanted me lynched, you should have kept your vote on me. I am trying very hard, believe it or not, to find a pro-town reason for your "trap" and I am finding it difficult.

[DeathSauce]

Deathsauce still looks scummy in my books, but because I used the trap with him as a "sacrifice" I can totally understand this as a pro-town action. I would be really angry with it myself.

If I just got to pick who to lynch right now, I'd go with deathsauce. His whole reaction to my trap rubs me the wrong way

There is no consistency between these two quotes. First you say you understand my reaction, then you say my reaction rubs you the wrong way. Which is it?

The fact that you are looking for input from StallingChamp makes me woonder if you are even paying attention to this game, we've been trying to get a replacement for him for like 5 pages.[/quote]

Mod edit
Votecount:
Miztef 3 (VanDamien, DeathSauce, ryan)
VanDamien 1 (Miztef)

Not voting 5: TopHat, Paradoxombie, Trustgossip, StallingChamp, vollkan

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[DeathSauce]

Just for the record, I am not angry at all about your "trap". Mystified would be more accurate.

Also just for the record, "woonder" means "wonder"

[DeathSauce]

Sorry ryan, the StallingChamp comment was directed at Miztef.

Please note that I said I was not "angry" about Miztef's tactic. I don't see any point in being angry about something that happens in a game. I could confess to being somewhat upset, but even that would be a little bit of exaggeration. In the end, it has helped to draw suspicion on a player that I found suspicious, so it has actually helped the town, in my opinion.

vollkan, I can't honestly tell you which one is more likely. The very fact that Miztef revealed the trap makes the whole thing very WIFOM-y.

It is not so much the "trap" as Miztef's stated reasons for it that really make me suspicious. I know you don't feel that the "it failed there, and the scum won" statement is a cause-and-effect, but to me it is a highly questionable comment. The further inconsistencies have increased my suspicion.

[DeathSauce]

How is the trap truely helpful to scum?

If you are scum, and a townie hammers me, you get a free pass to declare suspicion of them for being the hammer vote. You get to deflect suspicion from yourself because you can point out your unvote and claim ignorance as to why it didn't work. The timing of your trap and the posts in between announcing allows for the possibility that you expected someone to hammer quickly and were afraid that someone would catch your trap when the hammer didn't fall.

Now, can you explain how your trap was truly helpful to the town?

[DeathSauce]

Anyway I guess I'm am the only one besides Miztef to think his actions are justifiable

Please post in detail why you feel the trap and the multiple contradictions Miztef has posted are justifiable.

I've been noticing very minor scum tells from both Miz and DS for this entire conversation, but nothing major enough to bring up. But I think I'll attribute it to the fact that both of you are somewhat in peril, and might be just slightly twisting truths and exaggerating to survive.

This is nonsense.
If you think I am doing something scummy, please post it. The last 9 pages of this thread has been you and a few others saying "DeathSauce seems scummy" and only vollkan has had the courtesy to actually explain his suspicion.

As for me being "in peril", there is exactly one vote on me. Why do you feel the need to miscategorize my situation? If I switch my vote to you, are you "in peril"?

[DeathSauce]

Actually, I would like you to clarify post 632. It reads as a complete mishmash, and I glossed over because I was sure you would eventually come to your senses.

You're obviously overreacting. I haven't said you are scummy at all.

You said I was exhibiting scumtells. That is pretty damned close to saying I am scummy. If I say you are covered with feathers, you can safely assume I am implying that you are a bird.

I said that most people thought either you or Miz were scum. You haven't bothered to disagree with that, and if that's not "in peril" I don't know what is. It only solidifies my point that you've lashed out at me for even mentioning you, even though I actually said I didn't think those scum tells were valid.

We have different definitions of "peril" I guess. This is not the first time you have accused me of "lashing out" against you. I have done no such thing. I realize that it is hard to judge someones intent just reading words on a screen, but I am not lashing out at you, or upset, or angry, or any such thing. Maybe my typing style is terse or something, I will try to present a friendlier face.

You seem to think this one action of Miztef's is not only scummy, but totally complete and 100% evidence that he is scum. Yet you've never explained your vote. You never pointed out exactly how it proves the scumminess.

There have been at least three major inconsistencies in Miztef's posts since the "trap" fiasco. Read my response to vollkan in post 654, that should help to explain my suspicion of Miztef. Read all my posts since the "trap". You are completely misrepresenting the breadth of my suspicion.

Then, as soon as anyone suggest otherwise you go after them, as if their opinion is totally unacceptable.

Again with the "going after". I am

arguing my point of view

. That is what players do in this game.

This is the only explanation you give.

No it isn't. I have given three reasons in the last 2 pages.

We've already explained that it's totally fallacy to suggest it makes a difference how it (the trap) played out in another game, in a totally different scenario too, and since you've neither retracted or affirmed this point, it makes me think you realize it's wrong but are afraid to admit it.

A "totally different scenario"? How do you know that? Because Miztef said so? I saw no link to the game. I have repeatedly said that I found that sentence "explaining" the trap to be incredibly scummy. To suggest I have neither "retracted or affimed this point" is utter hogwash.

So we come down to your only explanation why Miztef should be condemned, is that his tactic was "highly questionable". Additionally, while you haven't come out and said it, it's obvious that your post suggests it is more reasonable for me to be scum than to disagree with your opinion.

Have you read my posts? How many times should I explain that it is NOT the trap that is my main source of suspicion? And please, please do not put words in my mouth. I have not even

hinted

that you are scum. But let me tell you, if you continue to misrepresent my arguments and put words in my mouth, my opinion can change. And please do not bore me with an "A-HA! I knew it!"

Here are the tells, for clarity:
#1. Going after obvious targets to escape suspicion
(While the "to escape suspicion" is speculation, I think it's obvious that's what DS is doing)
#2. exaggerating points extensively and intensely for use in #1

Re-read the thread. I was suspicious of Miztef long before there was any sort of threat to me. You admit Miztef is an "obvious target", therefore suspicion of an "obvious target" is suspicious?

You accuse me of "exaggerating your opinions". I see no evidence I have done so. If you want to keep your scumtells to yourself, just say so. The fact is I am only looking to defend myself, something every player wants to do. If a group of players continually posted "Paradox is scummy and is showing scumtells" and never exanded on that, might you not also get frustrated and ask for some actual evidence? Actualy, Van Damien did just that when he said this:

Paradoxombie and DeathSauce are scum

, yet you never even asked him about that!

I think it's important in the tradition of LAL to assume that they won't, because they shouldn't need to. Townies should be able to argue effectively and fairly to avoid a lynch and make a case. In my opinion DS purposely hasn't done that.

So you insinuate that I am a liar with your "LAL" comment, nice. As to your second point, about my ability to argue effectively to avoid a lynch, perhaps you didn't notice that two players that I previously argued were scum now agree with me that Miztef is worthy of lynching? Did you notice that I was at lynch -1, and then had no votes on me other than the person whose lynch I was advocating? I think I have argued as effectively and fairly as a player can in this game.

I hope you don't read this post as another "lashing", I am simply trying to answer your suspicions.

[DeathSauce]

Welcome to our new players! Thanks for helping us out.

[DeathSauce]

Whoa, I completely missed your post on the last page, vollkan! I will respond, give me some time, it's a crazy day here today.

[DeathSauce]

The "WIFOM-y" refers to the idea I floated about a scum Miz possibly revealing since it was the smartest thing to do.

Not really, I thought it was WIFOM-y because it's WIFOM-y, not because of an idea you floated, not sure where this comes from.

Here we have DS admitting he does not know which is more likely and admitting that the only possible evidence of scumminess (the reveal thing) is WIFOM-y at best.

That was not my entire answer to your question and you know it because you quoted the rest of it later and said

Death, you say it is the fact it had some relation to a loss in another thread and Miztef's contradictions which have made you suspicious rather than Miztef's actual actions. Even if I disagree with the former of these somewhat (the whole cause and effect debate we had), I can see your sense in the latter.

You agreed with me then and are ignoring it now.

All in all, whilst the contradictions are suspicious and I can see sense in suspecting Miz for them (as I said back in [660]), they are not very strong evidence at all.

Actually you found more contradictions than I did. Your posts 653 and 660 raise two of the contradictions I was referring to. You and Paradox keep talking about "evidence", but there is no evidence in this game unless someone just comes right out and admits they are scum. All we have are suspicious actions, and Miztef has been full of them.

This bit really grabs me:
You then say you are not "escaping suspicion" but are merely "defending yourself". Either way, I really don't like this since you are basically admitting that you have advanced the anti-Miz line to protect yoursself.

How did I admit this? My defending myself has nothing to do with my suspicion of Miztef. I expanded on that when I said

The fact is I am only looking to defend myself, something every player wants to do. If a group of players continually posted "Paradox is scummy and is showing scumtells" and never expanded on that, might you not also get frustrated and ask for some actual evidence?

(please ignore my use of the word 'evidence' there! ) That has nothing to do with my suspicion of Miztef.

If this attack on Miz is "defending yourself", then that strikes me as very suspicious indeed. The only reason you are not on L-1 any more is because of the events which have happened regarding Miz, most of which has been fuelled by you conflating a case. This looks to me like a scum taking advantage of the fact that one of the people who suspected them the most made a blatant error.

If you would have told me 4 pages ago that the people voting with me against Miztef would be VD and ryan, I would have had a good belly laugh, since I came right out and said I thought they were his scumbuddies. That was a turn of events I could never have predicted and didn't think possible. If my pointing out Miztef's slip-ups convinced them to vote for Miztef, it is mere coincidence that the same action removed their votes from my back. Can you really think that it was my intention to get ryan's and VD's votes off of me? Did there actually seem to be any hope of that when I began discussing Miztef?

[DeathSauce]

Paradox, it is obvious that you and I do not agree on the scumminess of the statement that I quoted in post 610.

You asked why a protown player would use the same tactic as scum did to win in another game. An analogy would be to call a gun owner a criminal because criminals occasionally have guns. An even more accurate analogy would be to call a gun owner a criminal because they saw criminals use guns for crime.

I don't think your analogy works, let's try another one. Why would someone that loves rabbits use an herbicide that is known to kill rabbits as a side effect? In this case, rabbits are townies and the herbicide is the tactic that Miztef used.

I am going to repost post 610 because it's a major point between you and me, and also between vollkan and me for that matter.

I saw someone do it in another thread (it failed there, and the scum won) but I thought I'd try it out here anyway.

Wow.

I just can't get over that sentence. It appears to me to be the slip-up scumtell of all time. I know you guys disagree, but just go over it again one more time and try to see it from another point of view.

Miztef's later explanations did not help, and we have shown, to my belief, that the trap had a bigger upside for potential scum that it did for potential town.[/quote]

[DeathSauce]

Why don't you give us a link to the game, then we can judge for ourselves how it was used.

[DeathSauce]

Hence, again the case against Miz is feeble at best.

This is highly surprising from someone that has used the last few pages of this thread building their own case against Miztef. Even Miztef said

I am somewhat confused as to why vollkan has not voted for me yet though, since his evidence against me seems to have mounted up quite heavily.

[DeathSauce]

Well I hope you can see how I find it slightly odd that you build a case against one player for a week and yet don't vote them, but your analysis of one of my posts warrants an immediate vote.

[DeathSauce]

I feel there is a

small

amount of sense to what you are saying , Miz, but in reading the above post, when you state "unpredictability is a key point in winning mafia" , do you mean for scum or town?

A couple more points, not relating to Miztef. In case the deadline comes and I am still leading the voting, I want to get some more information out there from my viewpoint.

I feel pretty good about our two newest players. They are contributing well and both strike me as pro-town. Another point toward that is that I am at L-2, so at least one of them is certainly town, otherwise I would have expected a few posts gradually building suspicion of me and then a relatively fast lynch.

I think there must be 2 scum votes on me, with the third waiting to hammer if they can convince another townie to place the L-1 vote. This contradicts my earlier belief that VD, Miz, and ryan were the scum group. VD's behavior has struck me as pro-town-ish the past 3 pages, but I would like an explanation of the vote on ryan.

I hope to check in at least one more time before the deadline.

[DeathSauce]

{ghostly whisper} Gooooo Tooooowwwwwn!{/gw}

[DeathSauce]

I thought his game would never end!

I've been following along now and then, I have to say that ryan did a great job in this game, very good work at deflecting suspicion.