Mini #111: Sonic Heroes Mafia (The fighting's over...)

[araltaln]

Well, presumably Knuckles is on the side of good, although he's certainly been tricked into aiding the side of evil.. seems an appropriate role, really.

I'm not particularly in the mood to random vote.

[araltaln]

Hm, it's probably way, way too early to be guessing at who's around

However, since we're talking about it..

We almost certainly don't have all 12 playable characters around. At the very least, it'd leave scum very little room to hide, and "mass claim wins" just isn't fun. So I can't see Norinel doing that

What I could see, though, is our resident scum (and seriously. Could our main scum be anyone other than Eggman himself?) being told "you have captured X, Y, and Z, so you can safely claim to be any of them", to make up for a fairly limited selection of claims.

As for the "which ones Sonic fights" idea, towards the beginning of Team Sonic's story they fight Team Rose, IIRC, and you'd have a hard time claiming anyone on either of those teams is evil, I'm guessing.

[araltaln]

While that's true, we've already seen at least one role that was very appropriate to the character, and it's not unreasonable to assume we'll see more. All 4 teams have a grudge against Eggman, so it's probably not unreasonable to assume Eggman's the one we're looking for.

[araltaln]

Well, I do actually have a reason for trying to make it clear who's likely to be evil: I think it's pretty likely Rogue would be our cop, and if we think Team Dark is scum, that'd be a bit of a pain

Anyway, for those unfamiliar with some of the newer characters, you might check out this page from the official site (link, Flash required), as it contains summaries both of who everyone is and why they're going after Eggman/Robotnik.

And if anyone tries to tell me the Chaotix are new, I'll hit them over the head with a 32x.

[araltaln]

*shrugs* Obviously I'm not going to hop on the bandwagon at this point

[araltaln]

I can think of one perfectly good reason not to claim such, personally

[araltaln]

Yeah, I'd honestly rather hear a rolename claim myself; even if my hunch is right I'm not the one who needs to know.

[araltaln]

Eh, I rather suspect it's not something we need to pursue (see previous theory about the mafia having been given safe claims ), at least not at the moment. Then again, Cream having been captured before the start of the game falls neatly into place with a previous theory (yup, same one).

Also, "Cream the Rabbit", surely?

In any event, it's probably time to move on.

[araltaln]

I realize now we need something to move on to

Random second-

vote Jolle

, I guess, unless someone has something better? (Not likely at this point, I know )

[araltaln]

*ponders* A one-shot doc fits the theme, kinda; it's not necessarily a Tails-specific thing, but it fits. Still, I have my doubts about Mojo. Not enough to cast a lynching vote yet, though.

[araltaln]

Well, the one time doc thing could also be being able to give someone a shield, as it would both protect against exactly one hit and disappear at the end of the stage But obviously that isn't necessarily a Tails thing.

[araltaln]

One last post from me before I disappear for a week. (See V/LA)

First of all,

unvote

, just in case.

Mojo, I don't particularly care for random bandwagons myself. That being said, you realize what this game would look like without them, right?

We have, to my knowledge, nothing to go on; what else do you suggest we do? In general, I'd prefer another random bandwagon to a no lynch.

Nanook, I'm with Prince Kael on this one, you're exaggerating quite a bit when you say he's started "wagon after wagon".

[araltaln]

Just popping in to say I exist, a coherent train of though will have to wait for morning.

[araltaln]

For the curious:

Speed characters: Sonic, Amy, Shadow, Espio.
Power characters: Knuckles, Big, Omega, Vector.
Flying characters: Tails, Cream, Rogue, Charmy.

[araltaln]

Aarrgh, the dreaded "No posts exist for this topic"! *falls over*

Nanook, there seemed to be a general concensus that discussing that wasn't going to get us anywhere at the moment.. not that we seem to be going much of anywhere at the moment In any event, my thoughts on the matter are back on page 2, although they're possibly a bit outdated given your apparent ability and opinion

[araltaln]

Yay, but I get the distinct feeling we're going to be here a while.

I don't suppose we've got any additional information from those who've already claimed? We might as well start with that before possibly pushing for additional claims.

[On a side note, 13k views?? Whoever's just refreshing the page should click the little "Notify me when a reply is posted" checkbox the next time they post instead ]

[araltaln]

Vote warpdragon

, for apparently being capable of reading the thread over and over but not saying anything

Mlaker has posted elsewhere after the day started here, but also hasn't posted here.

[araltaln]

Aarrgh (again), the dreaded "No posts exist for this topic"! *falls over again*

Warpdragon, the only threads with more views than us now are the various queue threads, forgive me for noticing (Admittedly, I'm not able to count the views Intrigue and such had in total, just the ones currently listed. But still.)

[araltaln]

First, that does give us a representative of all four teams (we can almost certainly assume Mathcam is, in fact, Rouge--if Mathcam and Nanook and whoever else are working together and know enough about the setup to not be contradicted, this is going to get rather interesting rather quickly). However, I'm still fairly sure we're not all 12 playable characters--if we are, we're playing Mass Claim Wins, not Mafia.

Nanook almost certainly has the ability to find out other's role names--I'll point out that this isn't necessarily a pro-town ability, as it's useful information for the mafia too.. I'm on the fence on this one currently--so although I'd like to know what his rolename is (or be reminded of what it is), I'm not sure of my suspicion level.

I'm not sure what to make of Mathcam's claim, as insane cop really doesn't fit Rouge, IMO. (She's darn good at what she does, and has a clear idea who's on which side) On the other hand, those /could/ be sane results--I dunno.

As for who was protected and blocked? Dragonmaster hasn't shared (but has posted), so it's hard to guess there, but it's not hard to guess who was protected--we did already have 1 claimed cop after all, a responsible doc would have protected Nanook. Of course, a mafia including Nanook could guess the same and not kill to make it look like a sucessful protect, too Paranoid? You bet!

I'm against a mass claim, but that's simply because I'm assuming it won't help much.

[And as a final note, every single time I wrote Mathcam's name in this post, I typoed it Matcham first. Every. Single. Time.]

[araltaln]

I really would like to hear Nanook's role name before I make up my mind.

[araltaln]

Prince Kael, the reason that I felt you were scum is because of someone's post earlier. Each night I can get a players role name, and I found Espio for you, so since I saw that it was posted as a possible evil character in the game, I attacked you based on it.

Unvote: Prince Kael

The only time previous to Kael's claim that Espio was mentioned in the thread?

I agree with the idea that we probably have another vig.

Game theory:
In Sonic Heroes there are 12 main characters (surprised?). They are divided into 4 teams of 3. I think one of those teams may be mafia but I have reasons to think it may be split.

The four teams-
Sonic (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles)
Rose (Amy, Big, Creamy)
Dark (Shadow, Omega, Rogue)
Chaotix (Espio, Charmy, Vector)

And, a few posts down, one of two other mentions of the Chaotix, and the only place I can find it suggested Espio might be scum even indirectly:

Team Dark and Team Chaotix are both equally likely bad guys. Knuckles posibly could have been claimed evil.

(The other mention being my stating that this is not the first game the Chaotix have appeared in.)

Now, you've claimed Vector, another role from Team Chaotix. This seems inconsistent.

Unvote

, but I'm going to hold off on voting for a little bit, as I'm not sure if this is sufficient evidence or not.

[araltaln]

I'm not making any statements about the odds of a particular team being mafia (in fact, I'm still clinging to my convictions we won't have all 12 playable characters), but that's the only way it was suggested Espio might be scum prior to Kael's claiming, and if Nanook noticed that when he read the thread whenever having replaced in, if he's Vector, he probably should have noticed that.

(Although I suspect you haven't actually read my post, sycko, as I just unvoted whoever I'm voting for )

[araltaln]

Blargh, etc.

But to consider that Espio might be scum because Team Chaotix might be the mafia in this game, you'd have to have known the composition of Team Chaotix.

[araltaln]

Nanook. There was exactly one post prior to Kael's claim that contained the word "Espio". I quoted it previously; it didn't, as far as I could tell, cast any suspicion on Espio. It was, in fact, a list of who was on what team in the game.

Now, this isn't to say suspicion wasn't cast on Team Chaotix (and I quoted that post too), but if you're reading with enough comprehension to put those together, you might possibly have noticed what team Vector was part of at the time There wasn't any single post to notice.

[araltaln]

*blinks* We have Mathcam's word he's Rouge, too, you know.

[araltaln]

It is very tempting to take the time to find an Appropriate way to respond to that prod, but I suspect it'd take me more than 48 hours to come up with the right thing.

Anyway, I'm having a really hard time figuring out what I want to say, and, specifically, who I think we should lynch today and why. Currently, I'm leaning towards mlaker simply because I have this thing against lynching cops the day they claim, but lynching mathcam would give us quite a lot more information.

[araltaln]

Well, it could be the case that we don't have all 12 playable characters as roles. Just maybe. Y'know?

In any event.. Metal Sonic /is/ in Sonic Heroes. Towards the end. Despite that, though, I'm still of the opinion mlaker's claim is least likely, so I will go ahead and

vote mlaker

.

[araltaln]

Right, that's got to be the oddest way to prove sanity I can think of.

Vote Yoko Kurama

(replacing Nanook, as a reminder), but I'll be very disappointed if this goes to lynch before we hear from both mathcam (arrgh, I'm still typoing that as matcham) and Yoko.

[araltaln]

Mathcam is proven /sane/. We lynched his innocent result, and got a godfather.

[araltaln]

...

Right, okay.

Before the lynch yesterday, there were the following possibilities:

1. Mathcam is a sane cop.
2. Mathcam is an insane cop.
3. Mathcam is a random cop.
4. Mathcam is lying scum.

Mathcam's result of innocent on a godfather is /correct/, so 2 is eliminated. 3 is rare enough (and enough of a pain) that I'm willing to discount it for now. Given that Mathcam was pushing for the lynch of his innocent result pretty much the entire time, that would mean the mafia would have to have been planning mlaker's sacrifice pretty much the entire time. While I'll admit it'd be a somewhat effective plan (getting us to lynch a rolename cop), it wouldn't be worth 2 scum (as if we lynch Nanook now Yoko and they're innocent, we ought to proceed to lynching Mathcam), so I can't see mlaker/mathcam/whoever else doing that. That leaves us 1, Mathcam is a sane cop.

[araltaln]

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

[araltaln]

...

...

...

Hello, dead one-shot vig? Also, I know.

*waits on Yoko*

[araltaln]

Hm, I could have sworn I mentioned I was pretty sure we weren't just dealing with 12 playable characters. Several times, in fact.

Yeah, Yoko's got my role name correct, which doesn't honestly surprise me all that much. It would surprise me a bit that I was investigated at all, given my words and actions, but then that can be chalked up easily enough to replacementness and/or scuminess, I imagine.

Anyway, Omochao is (naturally enough) in Heroes, I'm in the upper right hand corner of this screenshot, for instance. Admittedly, it's not a /terribly/ good shot, but it's the best I could find quickly.. if you can't tell (if? heh.), Omochao is a chao with a propeller on its head.

[araltaln]

Unvote

, as I'm not exactly convinced we're done talking for the day

[araltaln]

sycko: If we lynch Yoko and he's a (pro-town) role name cop, that's /still/ one cop down--your logic is horrid.

Jolle: Finding out role names and thus being able to take a guess at the person's abilities can be a very powerful anti-town ability; it would increase the scum's odds of finding a powerful pro-town role by a lot.

Fletcher: *peers* So is sacrificing one's godfather unneccessarily suddenly a good play, then? Or is there some other reason a scummy Mathcam would've done it? It makes no sense.

[araltaln]

..........

no.

You are voting Mathcam, therefore I get to assume you think he's scum. I'm giving a reason why I'm pretty sure you shouldn't.

[araltaln]

All kills by or using robots? We haven't seen any such kills, have we?

Also, if "blown to bits" is a unique kill method (that is, only one killing group uses it), then we apparently do have someone who's out there doubling night actions and, as that ability's not being used on a confirmed cop, I'd have to assume it's not a pro-town ability. *pokes Shadow in the Chaos Control* Stop it.

Anyway! I've got a couple of theories I'm working on, and I'll take the time to polish them up while waiting to hear if Mathcam's had some success. Although I rather suspect he investigated either Fletcher or me.

[araltaln]

I'm rereading again. It kinda hurts at this point. So you get to deal with random comments based on things I notice.

Why Rouge's a cop:

Sneaky and sly, when it comes to top secret spies, Rouge the Bat fits the profile perfectly. She's hired from the government to investigate strange matters, one of which was the disapearance of the military's cancelled project: Shadow. She was ordered to find Dr. Eggman, and follow him aboard the Space Colony ARK to investigate what they were up to, and even went as far as to steal 3 Chaos Emeralds from the military's Federal Reserve Bank, just to keep her cover. Though you could imagine she enjoyed that little endeavour, as Rouge has an obsession with jewels to go on the side of her spying methods. This same obsession lead her to stumble upon the Master Emerald, as well as Knuckles.

And now I have filk to the tune of the Secret Agent Man theme song running through my head, thanks.

Could dragonmaster (since replaced by MMCL) have been lying way back when, here?

alright. I'm Creamy. And I just recently escaped from capture by Dr. Eggman. He's a henchmman, not the main guy. I don't know who the main guy is though.

Especially looking at Quagmire and mlaker's reactions to that claim, considering that we know we have mafia with abilities, knowing that Eggman is in fact not the GF, and knowing that the person dragonmaster claimed to have attempted to block when he got this message wasn't Eggman (as Mojo's dead now)...

FOS: MMCL

.

More to come, eventually.

[araltaln]

Okay. I am going to post calmly and rationally. Even if I'm only doing so because I can't hold a big enough clue-stick.

Robots: Omega (wouldn't, IMO, be part of the mafia group, but could be either SK or vig), Metal Sonic (dead, obviously), Omochao (me). Possibly also Robotnik's various robots that appear in the stages, but I doubt that.

MMCL, that night one happening is /exactly/ why got a FOS from me: the person you blocked night 1 is now dead, and not Eggman. You could very well be a blocker, you could very well have blocked Mojo night 1, but it looks to me like it's fairly probable you're a mafia roleblocker. I'm not done rereading, though, so that's both only fairly probable and I'm only willing to FOS, not vote. Although the fact you're looking at Mathcam the way you are isn't exactly helping my opinion

Everyone that has claimed (Mathcam, MMCL, is there anyone else left alive? ), would you please consider fully revealing your results? With 2 kills still possible and only 6 alive, we're practically in end-game, so getting the lynch right now is fairly important.

[araltaln]

sycko, none of the mafia we've seen so far has been on Team Dark, we haven't found Eggman yet, and 4 or more scum would be a little bit unbalanced. More to the point, every single ability has been thematically appropriate, and Omega has this little thing I like to call "murderous rage" towards Eggman.

Jolle: ...

spork, who did you use your ability on last night? Also, remember Cam found an innocent last night

[araltaln]

I know, I know, I'm just worried you won't have time to jump in with this crowd

Spork, are you trying to say that your ability is a one-shot ability, and that you used it only on night two?

[araltaln]

Jolle, your reasoning is flawed, even if it's flawed in my favor: I can't possibly be considered cleared of being Eggman based only on evidence scum has given us. Also, I agree with Cam, except you're not really throwing the dice away for rolling 5 6's in a row--even if his night 2 choice were completely random, it's more along the lines of throwing the dice away because you rolled 2 dice and they totaled 11 (3 [at least] in 11, 2 in 9 [1 dead, one investigated already], overall probability 2 in 33, as far as I can work it)

Sycko: Dr. Robotnik = original Robotnik (SatAM, first 50 or so issues of Archie Sonic).
Eggman (or RoboRobotnik) = another zone's Robotnik, who'd taken over all of Mobius long ago and defeated Sonic. Took over after Sonic (and, to an extent, Snively) defeated Mobius's Robotnik. (the rest of Archie Sonic)
Buttnik = term Sonic uses for either.
Dr. Eggman (or Dr. Robotnik) = Robotnik from whichever zone the Sega games are considered to be (which, at least for recent ones, certainly isn't Mobius )
Obviously, though, those names tend to be interchanged, especially for people familiar with all of them.

They are the Eggmen.
Rotor is the Walrus.
Goo goo g'joob.

Or something.

*quietly goes "fan-boy! faaaan-booy!" to himself off in a corner*

[araltaln]

It'd appear that he has the ability to grant someone an additional night action (and Yoko really did have two investigations, then); I'm trying to find out if he could be responsible in a way for the extra kill last night. If he could be, the person he targetted to get an extra action last night should probably get quite a lot of suspicion; if his ability was one-shot (as I /think/ he was saying) it's not much help.

[araltaln]

Well, if we don't have another double night action caused by you last night, we have two different killers left, and we almost have to have Eggman as one of them as far as I can figure.

However, claiming may have been extremely wise--both other people who haven't claimed role names yet quietly let that one go, so you are almost certainly who you say you are.

So.. 4 people with names claimed, 2 without. Perhaps it's time for a name claim from the rest of us?

[araltaln]

Jolle, you are the next contestant on the Claim is Right; come on down!

*waits*

[araltaln]

Well, considering Jolle's the only other one without an ability claim, I suppose it couldn't hurt--although a couple of you might have noticed this during day 2:

As for who was protected and blocked? Dragonmaster hasn't shared (but has posted), so it's hard to guess there, but it's not hard to guess who was protected--we did already have 1 claimed cop after all, a responsible doc would have protected Nanook. Of course, a mafia including Nanook could guess the same and not kill to make it look like a sucessful protect, too Paranoid? You bet!

Irresponsible? Sure! But I wasn't sure of Nanook's status at the time, so I felt that if I ended up dead without having claimed this was information the town should have.

Yes, I'm the doctor; I protected Nanook night 2 and Mathcam all other nights, which is why I'm suspicious that Omega might really be an SK--if you're a vig, sycko, that means the mafia have yet to attempt to kill a claimed and proven cop, as far as I can tell. But as long as we can be relatively sure there's at least one mafia left, we should look there first; if we lynch Eggman and the game doesn't end, then we can look more closely at you.

[araltaln]

Right, a summary:

Sonic - not in game. Was mlaker's safe claim as Metal Sonic/GF.
Tails - Mojo, one shot doc.
Knuckles - PBuG, unprotector (one shot vig).

Amy - Fletcher, partial kill immunity.
Cream - (claimed) MMCL, roleblocker.
Big - not in game.

Shadow - (claimed) Spork, one shot? extra night action granter.
Rouge - (claimed) Mathcam, alignment cop.
Omega - (claimed) Sycko, vig.

Espio - jadesmar, two shot self protect
Charmy - (claimed) Jolle, team cop.
Vector - [scum] Nanook, role name spy.

Omochao - (claimed) Araltaln, doc.

Metal Sonic - [scum] mlaker, GF.
Eggman - [scum] ?

Sycko, you're possibly thinking of Cheese (a chao, but not a robot), who I'd have guessed would have been in a mason group with Cream

Jolle's claim and choices seem to match with his words and actions, IMO, although I haven't looked at that quite as closely as I'd like.

MMCL, could you at least post the choices you've been here for?

[araltaln]

Here.

[araltaln]

Bloody hell.

MMCL. You have been in the game for multiple nights. You could at least tell us the choices you made while you've been around.

Also, we /could not have had/ a mafia of size 4 to begin with, we'd have had a lynch-or-lose situation on /day one/. Your entire post is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

[araltaln]

MMCL: while I am suspicious of that, I wouldn't be too surprised if Shadow's ability could override a roleblock, I guess.

However, while your actions do correspond to being a roleblocker and having blocked Yoko, they also correspond to a scum buddy knowing the jig's up So, especially considering everything else you're doing and saying is suspicious (also known as, why, exactly, are we voting for the only claimed doc? And I know you know better than to think we could have a 4 member mafia in a 12 person game. Roleblockers only have a 1 in 11 shot at making it not lynch-or-lose, vigs using their ability night one could lose us the game before we get to day, and you claim the only full-time doc is scum.), I am going to go ahead and

Vote MMCL

.

[araltaln]

Mathcam, I think the "mafia spy" is just referring to the role-name-finding ability, although I'll admit recruiting on night 2 (or on night 1, I'm just trying to explain the complete lack of kills night 2) fits the information we have as well as anything else I can think of. (Besides, Vector knew pretty much the entire time that the "mysterious client" that Team Chaotix was working for was Eggman, Espio and Charmy didn't.)

[araltaln]

If I haven't made it quite clear, MMCL and Jolle are the only two people I'm currently worried about being mafia. Spork almost certainly has the ability and role he says he does, Mathcam can't, at this point, be mafia alone (so we can look for someone else today even if he is mafia), and Sycko could only be an SK (and I'm getting the feeling he's not), and not mafia.

[araltaln]

It's very simple, Jolle claimed last Those results could simply be based on what everyone else already claimed.

That being said, I don't think that's the case. Which is why my vote's on MMCL still.

[araltaln]

I'd type slowly, but that's an old joke.

I don't think it's likely at all that we had a 4 person mafia to begin with.

I think it's only possible that Mathcam is mafia if there is at least one other mafia left.

If there is at least one other mafia left, we had a 4 person mafia to begin with.

Now! What conclusions can we draw from the above statements? That's right, "I don't think it's likely at all that Mathcam is mafia."

You and Jolle are suspects on your own, not in a group.

[araltaln]

I will now, at least--was it your intent to not point out how my logic was flawed in your opinion?

[araltaln]

*rolls eyes* If there is at least one other mafia left with Mathcam, etc., etc.

Or am I going to get in trouble with you for using abbreviations, too?

[araltaln]

I'd type slowly, but that's an old joke.

I don't think it's likely at all that we had a 4 person mafia to begin with.

I think it's only possible that Mathcam is mafia if there is at least one other mafia left.

If there is at least one other mafia left with Mathcam

, we had a 4 person mafia to begin with.

Now! What conclusions can we draw from the above statements? That's right, "I don't think it's likely at all that Mathcam is mafia."

You and Jolle are suspects on your own, not in a group.

(bold modified, as I hoped I had made it clear should've been done)

And if you don't see any abbreviations in my previous post--well, even if you don't know what it means you ought to be able to spot it based on the nearby punctuation

[araltaln]

Mathcam, I believe it is much more likely that there were only 3 mafia to begin with (like I've bloody well been saying for ages)--if I thought 4 was more likely, I'd probably be on your 'excessivly paranoid' list by now.

MMCL, we've caught 2 scum, and you don't seem to understand that "one other mafia left with Mathcam" would be 2 more. I believe that it is Jolle /or/ you, because it would have to be Mathcam /and/ someone else (a bit of logic I'm suprised you haven't attacked yet, to be honest To save time, though, at least one other person would have to be lying for him to be scum) and I don't believe there's 2 mafia left, because that'd mean there were 4 mafia to begin with, and, as I've stated before, I don't believe that there were 4 mafia to begin with.

[araltaln]

Or you could, y'know, actually look at context. But, I guess not.

[araltaln]

Thanks for a great game, Norinel, I know I had tons of fun with it (Although maybe a little too much fun in some people's opinion *sings* Secret agent bat, secret agent bat/If she takes away your emeralds/Don't hang your head in shame)

However, I have a confession to make...

I've never played Sonic Heroes (or the closely related SA2). All the information which I based my guesses, theories, and assertions on is accessible online. All of it.

Make what you will of that