Newbie 476: Slow, slow, slow, then FAST and over. Damn.

[Korlash]

Yeah I keep looking for one of those... I'll find it someday... maybe...

[Korlash]

to bold its:

~~~[ /b] Not the <>

And Hi Stephy *waves*

[Korlash]

Thats good to know... I hear that thing is illegal in 20 countries and all 50 states...

[Korlash]

Yeah thats something I haven't learned yet... How to pull the game out of the random phase and into real play. I normally forgo the random vote though.

Also thanks I've been looking for that pesky button!

[Korlash]

If I had to use my gut I would vote for Mith.. Mostly cause I always fear the smart helpful people...

I wouldn't mind a bit more from Holy and Havok before I start my voting stage...

My early views... Stephy is just a new player... Probably town from my experience... Holy I can't say for certain... Maybe a new player who doesn't want to say too much because its her first time as mafia... Maybe just doesn't want to attract any attention to herself... Sir Tornado... Could go either way... I haven't actually seen anything scummy from him yet but his comment about getting the game underway makes me suspicious. I know a lot of ways to get the game underway... Most of them actually ends up getting me lynched... but hey... it still works... jmar... Eh.. Hes shown his inexperience and hasn't said much to stand out.

Then we have Mith... Who... Um... probably one of the smartest players on the forum... So again I can't say for certain...

So I'm going to remain voteless and see where the discussion gets us. But if I had to vote I would throw it on Sir Torn or Mith... I'm sure that will change by the time I actually vote though..

[Korlash]

Interesting post Korlash... mind telling me why you think stephy is probably town?

Sure can there... First off it is a fairly common newbie mistake to think a no lynch is better then killing off a towny. I myself wanted to do that my first game when it was like... 12 players. Everyone got made at me and bad stuff happened :O

Secondly it is a good mafia ploy to suggest a no lynch sometimes. This not only makes them look innocent but could in fact bring about a no lynch, giving them the edge they need. However I don't think any player would know that on their first game.

Then you just get my gut feeling.. though I think I'm always more trusting of girls.. I don't know why ><

So thats my take on it. Think what you like for now. Its way to early to actually have anything to go on yet.

[Korlash]

Not always...

Take an experienced player... They won't act out over one little random vote. In fact some people won't do anything when they are one vote away from a lynch. This early in the game a vote is meaningless.

Now take an inexperienced player. They get a vote on them and might go crazy. They don't want to be singled out this early. And if they are town they might do some rookie mistake that will eventually get them lynched.

In short, sometimes random votes are not only worthless, they actually hurt the town.

Now sometimes you can get lucky. You can hit a newbie mafia. Then you might get somewhere. Or you can hit an experienced mafia and maybe get lucky. Or hit a town and have one of the mafia do a mistake. But overall the random voteing is only good to get in posts quickly. The vote itself is overall meaningless.

Now I on the otherhand, try to promote activity without the early voting. It A) doesn't create early game conflicts between players, B) Doesn't give me any early "stands" on players and C) Doesn't give the mafia any fodder to use against me. Mostly all random voting is is people posting. So I figure, just post. Don't even bother with random votes.

And I'm not saying votes don't hold pressure on people. If you can give a logical reason, good support, and a semi-viable presentation about how someone "might" be mafia, then vote them, it will create some pressure. No one will be worried about a "I think you look crazy, Vote: You!" But they might get scared when you come at them with "You said this, this, and did this. A towny would never blank. So you are either a bad player or mafia! Vote: You!"

Or thats my take on it. I do random vote sometimes... Mostly I vote for the Mod or myself though... I never risk pressuring a newb towny into something I will later regret...

[Korlash]

Wow for a second there I thought I had to answer two questions... turns out its the same one...

Ok.. sure...

Sir Tornado said "Because, if you don't make up a vote, or do something similar to get responses from people, the game never actually gets underway." (I didn't feel liek quoting right now...)

Now I take that as you trying to tell us to vote. To me, thats a big weird. I haven't voted yet and jsut by talking got you and Mith to both actively ask me stuff. So, Yeah saying you have to vote or something similar (An Fos? How similar can you get to a vote??) to promote activity is crap. And when someone says something thats crap I think it makes them look suspicious. But I don't consider this a scum tell at all.

I'm very careful with my accusations of scum, just because I have a small feeling on someone doesn't mean I automatically assume they are scum. But it does make me look more closely at their posts from then on.

OOC: Ohh a Birthday... is there cake? Do I get some?

@Mith: My whole point when I vote myself or the Mod is just to joke around. I don't try to promote anything with them. Like I said I'm not a fan of random votes...

[Korlash]

When did I say Torn was Mith's backup?

Also... Mathematically... everyone is more likely town in you argument. So it still proves nothing.

But, take it like this, each player has a 50/50 chance of being mafia or town because its all randomly assigned. So Mith has a 50% chance to be mafia. As do I, as does Sir Torn, as do you.

This early I have nothing on Mith. But in my experience, a lot of really good mafia players like to really help out the town and newbies so they gain trust from them. I can see this as Mith's plan, or I can see him as a really good IC helping us. I didn't vote for him because I didn't have anything to go on. Just because I said he was on top of my list meant nothing this early.

Also the Now "if I'm town" comment could have been worded better.. maybe.. "As town. I see Mith as a resource." Its not really important, but using the words "If I'm town" When the phrase "I am town" Would be better seems weird to me. I'm not saying it means anything, just a thought.

[Korlash]

Actually I thought in depth about this for a while... see there has to be the exact same odds for everyone seeing as how its random. and because theres only two choices it becomes yoru either town or mafia. The fact that there are more town roles shouldn;t actually play a part when it comes down to the overall point.

See the first person to get their role can either be town or mafia, then the same goes for the next. Thats 50/50 for both. Then you have to go into are both mafia roles assigned yet? So the next person might have a 50/50 chance or might have a 100% chance of being town, then the same goes for the rest.

But, there is no rule saying who the first two people are. If its truely random the Mod should pick a name at random and assign at random. So any one of us could be picked first, so we all have the option of being A) A town or B) a mafia. THen if we become town theres like 25% chance at doc 25% chance at cop 50% at vanilla...

Thats jsut my basic principle. You have to look at some other details, does the Mod go off the original list? That would then say who the first two to get roles are. Does the mod flip coins or pull out of a hat? Does the mod jsut randomly do it in their head? What are the mod's views on IC's on the same side?

The concept of trying to rationalize a percentage of being mafia, or a ratio of town to mafia can be seen from many many different view points, and can never be the same in two different games.

But the fact of there only being two outcomes, (Town or mafia) means that each one has a 50% chance of happening. Or as I like to put it, a coin flip.

the 2/7 and the 5/7 thing is a good way to look at it in general, but its still a toss up 50% chance per person until you know the others.

But all of this is meaningless so

[Korlash]

Oh i bet $50!

Ok Jmar... Mafia or town... *flips coin* Heads... Town...

Korlash... *flips coin*... Heads... town...

Mith >.> <.< *replaces coin* *Flips coin* ... Wow... it fell through a crack... this game is rigged! I want my money back!!!

[Korlash]

I already said that...

"See the first person to get their role can either be town or mafia, then the same goes for the next. Thats 50/50 for both. Then you have to go into are both mafia roles assigned yet? So the next person might have a 50/50 chance or might have a 100% chance of being town, then the same goes for the rest. "

My point is that no one should automatically get their roles first. So we have 7 players. And before any of them get a role they all have a 50/50 chance. If any of them can be chosen first then any of them can have that 50/50 shot.

But for the sake of not getting another lesson from Mith, and for not giving the mafia any more fodder to use against me, I'll admit the 2/7 5/7 is a better way to look at it... At least until I solidify my argument... >.> <.<

[Korlash]

Actually I spent a good 5 hours on my thinking way back when... I was trying to prove/Disprove the whole Both IC's are likely to be one mafia one town thing. I must have flipped 100 coins, drawn lots over 3 dozen times, threw darts, randomly assigned in my head, used a random probability thing on my calculator, dice rolls, dropping marbles, and all manners of what nots. It was a slow day... ><

Suffice it to say, each method of picking randomly has a different outcome and probability. Picking from a hat does get you the 5/7 2/7 ratio. Yet coin flips cannot have more then a 1:2 ratio. My argument is still flawed and will need more work before I actually try to use it. So i do love all the talk! Research!

Yet I still see no grounds on which this argument even holds so far in this game so all this talk is kinda pointless.

As for what I would say on Sir Torny as of this very second... if my life, the game, and all the turtles in the world depended on it... would be... Wait... What’s wrong with the Alaskan educational system? I was raised down South... taught to count on all 40 of my fingers and how to say my A, B, Ts! Just because I am trying to create a viable, theory in which I can understand randomness, probability, outcomes, ratios, and all manner of the laws of Physics, gravity, and dice roles, doesn’t mean I ain’t no smart!

Back to Torn... I would say he is town. And I would say You are town. Yes you! The person reading this... Hi... Yes I see you.. I'm behind you! BOO!

There has only been 2 pages of posts, with three of the players still as unknowns mostly. There isn’t enough to go on at all. But in the interest of promoting activity I spoke my mind about a simple statement Torny said and you seem adamant in either clarifying that (To a very overly extent) or trying to make me come off as a bad guy for suggesting it. this could just be you trying to promote useful discussion, player activity, or clarification of some hazy statement. I don't know which...

But in my mind the term "Suspicious" and "Scummy" Don't mean the same. suspicious means they did something you either didn't expect, or that you didn't want them to. So you point it out in hopes they give you a reason, give you more to go on, or fix it. A lot of town do a lot of suspicious things, sometimes they contradict themselves because their views have changed from other peoples posts. Some people automatically assume a contradiction means your scum, it doesn't. Sometimes there is a very reasonable excuse.

Scummy, on the other hand, is a slightly higher step up. This would be things you actually classify as scum tells, or mafia behavior. I myself have my own privet list of some scummy behavior. I try not to bring it up because most people don’t seem to agree with me on any of it… So meh… The scummy behavior is what you would actually use against people when you vote them. Take reasons for their votes, lynching a towny, twisting words and statements to make that person seem town, certain comments, etc… can all be considered scummy to some degree.

I personally do use the words scummy and suspicious together or even intertwined. But this early on I can’t say anyone has done anything scummy. Maybe to promote activity I will say something is suspicious and see what happens. But overall, you can’t really tell the scum yet. Well I can’t… I don’t know what the hell you guys can do… Maybe you guys can like.. read minds… or… like… the Role pms… HACKERS! I banish you all to the outside… Breath in that horrible fresh air and bask in the blazing rays of the sun! BURN DEMON BURN! *throws water at you*

[Korlash]

Ok... I just find it funny your turning me saying Sir Torny is suspicious into an "Attack" (sorta) on me when your the only one who is actually voting for him ATM.

As for backup... My top two doesn't automattically mean I think they are working together. In this case, they could be (Not enough to go on) but I havn't really seen a connection between them...

In fact if I had to guess a partnership... this early... I would say Jmar and Sir Torn the most likely. My reasoning: One of the biggest things I do as mafia, and I do it a lot, is I vote for my partner, early. In turn I often get my partner voting me either right after that, or very soon after. So when two people vote each other on page one, using the old OMGUS thing, then it peeks my interest.

BUT! Because sir Torn's vote was random it kills this theory. Which is why I don't have a vote up yet.

[Korlash]

Again I'm nto trying to turn it against you. The above argument can;t apply to a random vote.

Also the term "backup" I took to mean partner. If thats not what your implying then my bad.

[Korlash]

Ohhh ok... that makes sense...

[Korlash]

So you think the movies are more important then us? ;_; I feel so unloved...

Also I am now hungry for popcorn... Weird...

[Korlash]

Well the Proceedings so far have been nice. I think it coulda been sped up a bit though... And she looked so lovely with her gown on... ;_;

Also... What? Just cause I'm suspect your not happy with me? I try and I try and you just don't appreciate me! Thats it! This relationship is over! OVER!

... Goes to the movies and doesn't even bring me back popcorn... Sniff... The jerk...

[Korlash]

I actually would put my FoS on Havok... At least we know something about Stephy... Unknowns are dangerous... and scary... and kinda boring... *poke*

How long till Havok gets prodded?

[Korlash]

I agree with that too. I unfortunately, in another game, put a vote based on my gut feelings an people asked me why I would vote someone for no reason. So I told them little tiny details and what not and they turned it around saying my "attack" Is BS and scummy. So, while I trust my gut, I never vote on it unless I get hard evidence... I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who at least uses his gut every now and then.

And wow... I did not expect Havok to be all... Smart like and what not... Kudos for us...

Also I don't get high... Geeze... I just think jokes help keep the mood calm and stuff... I've seen some pretty bad flaming in a few mafia games and people just get so mad and start to kill each other off for no reason... I don't want to see that here so... Jokes!

So sorry if you don't like it but its how I play...

[Korlash]

Well in my opinion OMGUS votes aren't always a scum tell... I mean like jmar did it it was more a random vote then anything. Just a random vote that had a small reasoning behind it... Like a dice role.. just... a one sided dice... ><

So I don;t see it as ALWAYS being desperation... sure MAfia could use it a lot but a OMGUS vote right off the bat doesn;t mean anything this early... Sure in another 4 or 6 pages if his OMGUS vote is still on then yeah... I might its weird...

[Korlash]

lolz...

[Korlash]

You hear that guys... Be careful not to trip his Scumdar.. it could fall and break a hip... ahhh... man it may have been lame but it was so worth it... yeah... Zing...

Also.. no offense.. but you keep using me and Mith as examples and yet you didn't really give me anything to defend... so I keep getting the feeling your trying to gain my trust and what not which is kinda suspicious cause you don't know me and I don't know you... Just a thing I keep seeing as fishy...

[Korlash]

Whats wrong with awful puns? ;_;

...

Thats like... half my act... What are your feelings on oximorons?

[Korlash]

Yay for lack of math skills not meaning anything! Boo for Sir Torny thing...

And I really can't seem to make sense of what Holy just asked... something about if she hadn't been asking for more info would she have stayed on the not so much list...

The only reason I could see asking this would be to judge what Mith says... But I don't know.. this is one of those things where I actually have no clue whats going on....

[Korlash]

What he said...

[Korlash]

Aww I want a turn to be tested... I hope its multiple choice cause I suck at fill in the blank and essay! XD

And I think I'm way to tired tonight cause all I can do when reading posts is blink a lot and try not to fall over backwards... so... I'll see where I stand tomorrow... ha... stand... ahhh.... man I really am tired...

[Korlash]

@ Holy... if it's not prying or anything where exactly are you from? (Country/Continent is fine...) Nothing personal I just want to know if your grammer mistakes are from speed posting or from bad translation...

[Korlash]

Man inactive players seem to make the game drag out with no direction for a while... Man someone do something scummy so we have soemthing to go on

As for jmar's statement.. I would like to see what he calls mistakes too... Being Newbie mafia... it's... I don't know... Expected for mistakes to happen... and bad grammer in no way should be used against a person to prove scumminess... As Mith said how you say something can mean everything... But if you say everything differently then others would you need to be given special circumstances...

[Korlash]

Can we kinda drop the WIFOM thing? In reality... all this discussion... gets us absolutely nowhere... Literally...

[Korlash]

Ehhh I think your time woul dbe better spent rereading an issue of US Weekly... Ohh... 10 ways to lose weight by 2021... awsome...

[Korlash]

"Get off" and "stay" are almost the exact opposite... if you want to "Get off" a list you want to no longer be on that list and if you want to "stay " on a list you do want to be on that list... so... WTF are you talking about?!?!?! o.O

And how the hell can you defend yourself if you don't know why you are on someone's suspect list? Your making a crap load of not-sense...

FoS: jmar

[Korlash]

NOOOOO! No one from MDV!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO....

[Korlash]

sweet I always knew I liked you Lionden... You get me ^^

And FYI.. I believe we had a talk about "gut feelings" and apparently they are great tools here... so.. yeah... General feelings are all around ok...

As for jmar... He keeps setting off my alarm but seems to correct it ok each time... I chalk it up to simple newbie/rookie/overall mistakes... small suspicion but overall town vibe..

Holy... I don't know... I think if you look past all the bad grammar and bad wording you get a novice townie but you can't rule out just a simple bad grammared mafia player either...

As for Lionden I never got to strong a feeling off Stephy so I cant say for sure... I say simple unknown ATM...

Mith... seems town.. but you can never completely rule out any experienced player.. so... IGMEOY! *Stern face*

Havok and Sir Torn are my top picks just because of lurking and what not... I'm not ready to throw a band wagon on any of them yet but I will

Vote: Sir Tornado

to get the game moving... I would like to get more from each of them along with Lioden's greater insight...

And so my math doesn't add up... Sue me... Puns FTW!

[Korlash]

I have a thought.. Holy already answered that and no one seems to have heard her... Stop using the same bullet to try and force pressure a newbie into digging a hole for themselves...

She only meant to find out what she had done to get on his "FoS list" or however she said it... The point being, she had no idea why Mith suspected her and was trying to find out what she had done... because of how ti was worded people jumped on it and blew it out of proportion... Finding out why someone suspects you is not scummy... it is the only way you can defend yourself... if you say "I vote so and so because he has been scummy!" How does the person defend himself? He has to ask...

So I don't think that bringing it up every 4 posts and forcing Holy to keep trying to defend against it is beneficial to the town as a whole... Sure I would totally be into more info from her, but not about a dead subject...

[Korlash]

Yup... But I like how shes getting better and posting a lot more... moving away from an unknown and I can finally get a reading on her...

But havok and Sir Torn really need to say something useful like... NOW!

Also I like how Lionden posts a lot of useful stuff too... very nice... Still not enough to give a opinion though...

[Korlash]

thanksgiving? I thought that was next month o.O


... weird...

[Korlash]

well duh... You only have to go through... like.. 8 posts... How scummy can a guy be in 8 posts?

[Korlash]

Thats good because throwing things is wrong.. You could hit someone or poke out their eye or knock over a vase... Or an urn... Man that would suck...

[Korlash]

Ehh.. I don't think you can automatically connect saying Mith is a resource to Jmar disagreeing with him about some subject... Just seems like a far fetched thing to be saying...

[Korlash]

Ouch.. no one likes puns anymore...

And two points... First... "Trapping" in any way is kinda scummy... If you reread something and then come up with a lot of the same things happening you can bring them all up.. but if you intentionally try to make a person do something you can use against them it seems... well scummy to me... You could say your doing something to judge their response and if they do a certain one then you would jump on that case... Although I would think that its a lot like "Trapping" too... Or would it be baiting... I say this to get you to say that.. sounds like baiting.. same thing I guess...

Point Numeral Duce... I kinda just reread a lot and I don't see anywhere where jmar actually says "I trust Stephy!" In any real way shape or form... So things don't look very good for you Havok... On the plus side... I am the kind of person to look at things from two sides.. (Sometimes 3,4, or 8... Depending on the situation...) and I can say that I see where you may have gotten that mixed up...

See, if I was "Attacking" someone in any way and another person was using my "attack" against me and saying it was to fast, to quick, not enough evidence, reasons are bad, blah blah blah I see that as defending the person I am attacking (Providing its not the person I'm attacking who said the stuff) and I see no reason to defend someone unless you have some form of trust in them... i.e. They are your scum partner, you have a good feeling they are town, you don't think a lynch is a good thing ATM, etc...

So I can see why you would think jmar trusted Stephy, especially if your like me and go a good week without a reread... But FYI I wouldn't keep using that in your posts anymore...

And Lastly Point D:

Oh, and the only way to offend me is to keep making awful puns. Seriously, that could get you lynched.

Back to the drawing board...I should just vote Korlash for the puns instead.

If your going to vote me for puns I would like to see a complete list of every one I have used this game along with your take on it, also include jokes...

[Korlash]

I don't know.. I can see where she is coming from... You could just be trying to "seem really innocent/helpful" But I really don't think you meant anything by it...

And I know I shouldn't but I can't help but try and hold Holy to a completely different standard them everyone else... I just find it hard to judge everything she says the same as everyone else... I don't know.. right now I don't think it matters too much.. but it could come back and bite me later...

Oh Well I'm with Mith... I'll reread tomorrow... Right now.. its party time... Conga conga conga... conga conga conga...

[Korlash]

Not THAT bad... but in mafia the way things are said, and what things could actually mean, are a very big tool we use (Scum uses it too unfortunately, to twist what we say against us) to find out the scum. I just don't want to make a mistake and make a case against you over something said wrong or taken out of context... I think I'll just do a bad mafia move and assume your town for a while

[Korlash]

And I agree with that. But you also have to agree that basing your questions on previous actions/statements in order to prove a point is a pretty good attack for both Town/mafia.

However, saying that acting defensive automatically makes you scummy, is in fact, a downright lie. Especially if the question is, in fact, loaded in any way, shape, or form. In this case I can't even remember what the question was and I'm too tired to backtrack and check it out so... I won't push this any further...

[Korlash]

Ok... I look forward to it...

[Korlash]

I too am leaning towards Sir Torny... for I believe my activity promoting vote was placed on him and yet.. nothing...

So... Is he qualifying for prod value yet or what? To tired to look up his last post... Just finished with my angry Gene Wilder impression in another game and that always make me sleepy... *yawns*

So.. *poke sir Tornado*
>.>
<.<
*Then steals his wallet*
=D

[Korlash]

Well my top three would be Sir Torny jmar and havok although I would not vote for either Havok or jmar ATM...

I am not against picking Sir Torny as our deadline kill (If we decide to kill someone) Mostly because he like... never posts anymore...

Other then that I am fully against a lynch on anyone else... In fact I would rather just no lynch then kill because of a deadline now that I think about it... Still... Sir Torny needs to post something...

[Korlash]

OMG... If I had contradicted myself I would totally not

Vote: Jmar

right now.

Point a) a no lynch sucks ass

point b) A quick lynch because of a deadline sucks more because if it is a towny everyone who lynched that person gains the excuse "Because of the deadline!" thus we loose the scum/bandwagon factor during day 2.

Stop trying to create a reason for me to be the said quick lynch and get your facts straight.

[Korlash]

Um... You brought it up... Unless your talking about something else...

[Korlash]

Ohh ok then...

When I said I would rather no lynch, I did not mean it was a good idea. What I mean is I would rather see no one die then have us kill off a person with only 3 votes when the deadline comes. And seeing as how a deadline is not even in effect right now I'm not too worried.

Unvote:

I think we both just had misunderstandings there... Still glad to see sir Torny got prodded... Hopefully he will either talk or we get a replacement...

[Korlash]

ewwww! Get it off me! EWWWWW! SOMEONE HELP! Jmar's eye is on me! It's icky and gross! AWWWWW!

Do you require medical attention or can I just throw it away? :p

[Korlash]

If you are scum, it'd probably be defensiveness. If you were town, it'd probably be logical and reasonable.

Personally I think this to be the worst stereotype in mafia. Any mafia can be logical and reasonable, just like any townie can get defensive if you push them right. Take me. When it comes to anything at all to do with a deadline I get all stirred up. It's kinda my mafia pet peeve. I see a deadline as a stopping force for active discussion, a premature kill switch if you will to our collective information. And then being able to lynch with less makes a towny almost a sure thing to die. And as you saw before it makes me very paranoid that the mafia will jump the gun and try to start throwing attacks out with no evidence to back them up.

And FYI this quote is killed then from what you say... You said Jmar acted defensively the first time, then he didn't the second time... so what is he then? Half mafia half town?

I agree the mafia will sometimes be more likely to defend themselves but not always, it is never safe to assume that.

And wow... Input from Sir Torn... yet... it's all pretty... whats the word.. worthless... Heck of a post from someone who has been in lurk mode forever...

And I have already made my feelings on deadlines and the lynches clear. I only said that to see if it would add any more pressure to you to actually get you to talk. I have no intention of lynching just anyone, but if we do all agree to kill instead of not killing then I would rather get the player I know least from out of the picture so he is not an unknown tomorrow... In other words please post more....

[Korlash]

Alright, think what you want... But just notice I have never said kill before/again... other then in post 201 but that was about a deadline.

I referred to it as a lynch in 182 (The same post I said kill in) 188, 192, and 201. Not to mention every post before that. What made post 182 so special was that it would not be a lynch if we deadline "Killed" someone with only 3 votes. I'm sorry I cannot agree to call it a lynch without a majority vote, and 3 just isn't a majority...

But even I have to agree that the word kill for lynch is a good little shred of evidence. I'm going to file that away for future games! =D

[Korlash]

well I pretty much explained it all I can. If you guys want to run with it go ahead. I can't think of anything else to say about it, so like you said, i woudl just waste our time...

I would rather actually get Sir Tornado to POST SOMETHING! So we don't come into Day 2 with nothing on him... same goes for Mith... where the hell is he?

(And you too Lionden... Need some more from you)

[Korlash]

technically that was a quadruple post

And as for the Kill thing... Like I said there isn't much more I can think to explain it. I wasn't talking about a lynch so why would I use that word? I think your just trying to get easy, hard to defend against, logic on a townie so we (everyone else of course) jump on him before the deadline and you get to cruise to tomorrow with... well... I just reread... You have pretty much never had a post that lasted more then a a paragraph. And there are like 3 pages without a single post from you on them... Lurk much?

[Korlash]

I personally don't consider a lynch with a less then majority vote count a real lynch. Deadlines are (in my opinion) both a necessity, and the worst thing in mafia.... >.> <.<
So I always get jumpy around one.

I mostly tried to defend it as best I could so others would see it was a kinda weird attack and hopefully not jump at it because of the deadline.

And as far as I now i have not actually made any attack at all against Sir Tornado. I may have used the term "Lurking" as an easier way of saying "Not posted enough during day 1" in hopes he would add more content before the Deadline.

[Korlash]

Yeah, I thought I had made my opinions of how I feel about deadlines clear... (Perhaps it was in another thread)

i am not just going to randomly vote someone this close to a deadline. I will wait until I am very very sure of it. And if no one pops up as suspicious I will not vote. I hate deadline kills.

[Korlash]

Weird... I thought I had posted here like... 4 hours ago... I musta never finished it...

Anyways I believe I had mentioned something about how Jmar would be my best pick for today's lynch based solely on how "pro-deadline kill" he is. I then said something about how that was not enough for my vote blah blah blah. In short, I put an FoS on him and ended it with something I really though you needed to hear... If forget what it was ><

Summary: I do not see why It is a good idea to "hammer" someone on a deadline because it gives the mafia the option of each voting the person and leaving the killing vote up to you. Also, it seems like a good excuse for you (if scum) to use tomorrow for hammering Holy.

[Korlash]

Actually there is a difference (to me) between a no lynch and not lynching someone come a deadline.

See a no lynch requires a majority of us to vote it, while not lynching come deadline merely requires a majority of us to not be voting. See a no lynch is when a town comes together and agrees not to lynch, a deadline no lynch is when a mod stops the game before the town comes to a decision. See with the Mod killing our day, we have just lost a lot of posts and info we would have gotten if the day had continued. And so we have lost attacks, mistakes, strategies, scum tells, pro town tells, reasons to lynch, reasons to defend, FoSs, distancing, bad playing, crap logic, good logic, IC help, newbie mistakes, rookie questions, etc... etc... etc...

So as of right now I do not see enough evidence to kill anyone. So I have not voted. And come deadline I do not think I will have gained that much info on people in the short... 24ish hours we have... So... In a sense to put a vote on right now is just me taking a guess on who I think is mafia and I am not prepared to do that. In my opinion no lynch during the day and a random (ish) deadline kill are both bad plays, I just think a no lynch is slightly more productive as we do not lose the player.

I believe I am in like 3 games all with a deadline coming up (one tomorrow, one Friday, and I think the last one was moved to November 8) if you want to meta game me I say the same thing in all of them. I take a strong stand on deadlines and it takes a lot to get me to change. It's just the way I think.

[Korlash]

It's because I truly believe it. I see no reason to lynch Holy so I am against her death today. But if you guys somehow see her as being the most likely scum I obviously cannot stop you. I was just explaining why I am not voting and why I will not vote. I could care less what you guys do. Your all going to use the same excuse tomorrow anyways so "I told you so" would get me nowhere...

[Korlash]

Ok fine... if you want me to make a vote fine.

Vote: Korlash

His apparent unwillingness to vote clearly shows he is scum because we all know that killing a towny day one is sooo much better then a no lynch! Admit it scum!

I really, really don't like this. What you think you read and what you actually read are very different, and those differences are vitally important to a game such as this.

Ok... Don't get me wrong... but what you think you read and what you read should be the exact same thing. Maybe what you think the person meant and what he/she actually meant are two different things. That is why you ask them what the hell they meant!

I just do not get what your trying to say here Lionden. I honestly do not understand you. Can you explain this to me? See, I think I just read something that made no sense followed by a vote. So in my mind, you seem like your trying to push Holy's death with no support. So I am asking you to clarify it. I do not assume you are scum for this, I assume there is a misunderstanding which I want cleared up.

And that is my biggest reason for not lynching/voting Holy. As far I see it. You all have been hounding her for mistakes. (Which is good) then she gives her excuse/reasons for it. (Also good) then you... what? say her reasons are not good enough? Say they are bad reasons? What? Show me why you think she SHOULD BE lynched. I have not seen (that I can remember off hand) one solid piece of evidence you three have made against her. Why should I make a list of not lynching reasons. You should be making me a list of reasons to lynch!

Now, as for a lynch whatever. There is more then enough of you people who disagree with me that my vote is not needed.

Unvote:

If you can come to a reasonable candidate amongst yourselves, please by all means vote them, lynch them, whatever. But don't come crying to me if it bites us in the ass.

Also what is the point in just voting somebody? how does that change anything at all? Give me one good reason why I have to have a vote? does it benefit town to have a meaningless vote on a random person? No. Does it help us in our lynch candidate? no. Does it give you more info come tomorrow? no. If you can convince me I am wrong here before the deadline I will place vote. If not, my no vote stays.

[Korlash]

Wow... The first time I read Holy's thing I think I understood it completely differently. Now i cannot even remember what I thought it meant. Man... I still do not see that as a lynch material evidence. (Mainly because if I cannot figure out what she actually said then... I cannot figure out the degree of scuminess it may or may not imply. ><)

and @ Holy: I have tried many many times to explain how my feelings on a matter has changed and tell the players "Do not quote me on this for I do not feel that way any more!" Yet they always quote me and use it as an attack... *sigh* It is best to simply say "My feelings have changed!" and leave it at that...

Lionden I have to ask you, do you have more reasons or is it mainly that one quote? If so can you at least post a few of your other reasons. I would appreciate being able to take this with other things you have seen so I can better see your point. All this talk about appeasement really makes me want to try and come up with a likely candidate come deadline... just so you guys are happy... ><'

[Korlash]

Quick, someone do something suspicious so we can bandwagon you... :-p

yeah that was a joke Holy. He does not actually mean for it to happen. Besides the unlikeliness of anyone doing anything scummy now seems... well unlikely...

[Korlash]

So far i have seen nothing vote worthy from you Holy. I can see these guy's few tiny points yes, but it still does not constitute a lynch, and this is why i specifically hate deadlines! they force us to make rash decisions we would other wise not do, like lynching for unlcear or slightly insufficient reasons.

[Korlash]

2 things, well 3,
A) "Korlash, you're strawmanning my position like mad." I never even mentioned your name in the last page. How can I be strwmanning (need to look that one up i think) you in anyway. I am not trying to destroy your case here, I am merely asking you to tell me what your case is. How can i strawman your position if I have no idea what it is?

2) "If someone votes Korlash before the deadline, I will switch my vote to him if I am online and if it will get him lynched."

It will put me at two votes moron, not enough for a lynch. Dur...

and next) "Right now, Holy has two freaking votes. There are two others besides you with one. If you think either of those players are more suspicious than Holy, then it would be in your interest to vote for them, if you are innocent. "

Have you not been listening to my "I don't think anyone has enough evidence to blah blah blah..."? It's not just Holy I am against lynching right now. Stop pushing so hard for me to vote, you clearly see your going to get your damn lynch without me.

And I know that no matter what the outcome may be, you guys are going to hold this against me so i will make it very clear now. I am not pushing for a no lynch. All my statements on not lynching is only to state my reason for not voting, and why I do not feel like a vote right now is "needed" by me. I have said numerous times that if you all agree that a lynch is best all the more to you. Yes I am against a lynch because of the deadline, but I also understand the importance of lynching someone. I just personally feel Holy is not the best choice here. and seeing as how I only have 6 hours to convince you otherwise I guess it's not going to happen...

So... Going against everything I believe in, because you all insist it will make a difference... which it wont... My pick for best lynch today woudl be either Jmar, or Sir Torny. But seeing as how neither of them have a vote, I suppose I am still not doing what you said to. Oh well,

Vote: Jmar

At least Mith was kind enough to explain his reasons for voting Holy. I know I only asked last night so this is kinda an ass attack of me but I do not feel your in any danger of being lynched so I could care less. granted if in some way you end up being killed I will probably shoot myself in the he-... um... foot... but I see it as too unlikely.

Happy now Mith? theres my F***ing vote...

[Korlash]

wow... nevermind... I really need to preview the new posts before I hit submit...

Now I do feel like an ass... Well I am sorry for my attitude in the above post but you have to realize I do not think Holy was the best candidate for our lynch today. But I am kinda happy you guys chose to actual lynch instead of deadline kill. So no matter how you look at it you guys did what I asked so I support your decision. I hope you guys are right.

And yeah... What Mith said...

[Korlash]

;_; not Mith...

I think i should say a few words...

I hardly knew him... But I knew he was a kinda nice guy who was always there when it was possible to be. I learned much from his expertise. How to talk good, spel Rigt, and even to post useful stuff...

We will all miss you.... Sniff... DAMN YOU MAFIA!

Ok who gets his stuff? I want the CD player!!!

Seriously... Does that mean Mith was the Doc? That kinda makes this suck worse... *cries*

[Korlash]

>.>
<.<
Pssst... Lionden... are you sure we can trust these guys? They are kinda creepy don't you think... Sir Tornado kinda reminds me of PC back on MDV... Well a little bit PC a little Syphon...

So... Now that yesterday is all cleared up time to move on... try to get on with our lives... hang Jmar... Get cake... =P

seriously I don't know where to go from here... I am inclined to believe Havok is town simply because he did not vote. Then again he could have known Holy was town and did not want to be in on her lynch... The same can be said about me... so because I am town I kinda assume he is too...

So in my view two out of you three who voted Holy are the scum... But because of the deadline everything is topsy turvy... ;_; did I mention my hate of deadlines?

Also why Mith? I mean wasn't he a bit too... whats the word... Obvious? I would think the mafia would have wanted to use him as a scapegoat/avoid the doctor protection... ehh... this means a dang reread doesn't it? crap...

[Korlash]

it was a joke, I'm sorry if it came off offensive. ><

[Korlash]

Well If you remember correctly I believe I mentioned you as one of my top picks yesterday. Thus I used your name. No other reason... Didn't really mean it also. Just a joke... Lionden put that noose down!... Bad Lionden...

[Korlash]

No offense man... but your totally on to something... But from my point that makes you the likeliest candidate... Hmmm... Roughly 7 hours... thats enough time to Send in killing pm, go do something, come back and post... Better then a sending in Killing PM and yet staying online for an entire hour just to post first... *raises eyebrow* interesting...

[Korlash]

Yeah... Which would make more sense then that I was just town who got on at the right time.. Cause I woudl be scared to post first just because of this argument, yet if I was mafia I would not have posted first just to bring this argument up, and so on and so forth, WIFOM, etc...

Actually it all proves nothing and so I am just joking around here XD

[Korlash]

Lolz... We should lynch him for that (Kidding.. thats a joke... Put the noose down...)

how does any player being responsive or not have anything to do with attacking the first person to post? We all could have been active and that attack would still be sorta valid. But I stop there... No more talky.. well about that at least..

Lets see.. How to get the town to lynch Jmar today... hmmm... Maybe fake evidence in photo shop and make him look like he hates babies! (Another joke... Kinda tired today ><)

[Korlash]

No no.. that is a good idea.. lets lynch them for maybe being scum buddies.. Sir torn today.. havok tomorrow! They are inactive so no NK! YAY WE WIN!

>.>
<.<

"Is he serious?"

You never can tell can you? =D

[Korlash]

Arguments? We are still doing those? I thought we were all just sitting here not playing a game of mafia...

"My name is Michael J. Caboose..."

Lolz...

[Korlash]

This game sure has slowed down...

>.>
<.<

we need to get more active or another deadline will spring up!

DANG YOU PEOPLE TALK!!!!!

*prods everyone*

[Korlash]

DANGIT!

Vote: MeMe

for talking about deadlines!!!!!

>.>
<.<

[Korlash]

Yeah.. Jmar... say how much you hate Lionden >.> <.<

[Korlash]

... So you basically say "I think the people on the badndwagon are the ones we should focus on" More or less. then say me and havok are the two most scummy... Yeah... thats not making sense at all...

[Korlash]

Well you say "At least one" So there is a chance HAvok (Or me) is scum also right? So maybe your gut isn't wrong.. or maybe your scum trying to pull the confused towny card? Hmmm...

One of the scum most likely was... So a havok/Jmar partnership woudl work wouldn't it?

seriously I feel Sir Torn or you would be the most likely choices FROM the Bandwagon.. and because I am me I feel Havok is the most likely choice form OFF the bandwagon... Hmmmm...

I actually feel both scum have a higher chance of being on the wagon... Which is why I have Sir Torn and you Jmar as my top two... No offense you know... Dang Bandwagon gunna make me go all Non votey again isn't it... Frick... Quick lets lynch someone now =P (Kidding...)

[Korlash]

^Substitute "Bandwagon" for "Deadline"... sorry bout that...

[Korlash]

Quick lynch? seriously? Your worried about that... I mean it has taken us three weeks to fill half a page... =D

[Korlash]

Quick hammer? i don;t see that as likely.. I mean it is just us three... Does that mean you two are the other scum? Oh man... HAVOK! SIR TORN! COME BACK I NEED YOU TO SAVE ME!

[Korlash]

That would be cheating! *Gasp* We would never do that would we Havok?

But I get your point. However I do not like the threat of a deadline because I will go all catatonic again. Meaning we have no chance of lynching a mafia seeing as how there will be 2 mafia vs. 2 townies. So I would appreciate some discussion between us as to a good candidate/lynch choice/ scum pairings/ most likely town/ anything at all!

[Korlash]

Or we could just lynch Sir Torn...

Joke? Who is joking?

=D

[Korlash]

... So one of them has posted once... And the other hasn't? Or they each posted once? Don't know how you meant to say that one...

[Korlash]

Yeah I don't really feel like rereading either... Man... Jerks havok and Sir Torn post or I will actually think about voting for you! *angry face*

[Korlash]

Can I ask why him over havok?

[Korlash]

Ohhhh k...

>.>
<.<

You were on the bandwagon too... You should vote yourself

[Korlash]

Ohhhh k...

>.>
<.<

You were on the bandwagon too... You should vote yourself

Now who is repeating themselves????

Seriously... I would vote Sir Torn too... Hmmm... But I have a nagging fear you are mafia trying to play me...

Lionden, who would be your top pick?

[Korlash]

... Come on guys...

FoS: Somebody

...

[Korlash]

Yeah... Unfortunately that is the biggest reason I hate deadlines... There is actually no incentive for scum to vote... However I do know for a fact at least one scum was on the wagon... because I am town... So... actually in my mind that makes Havok a bit more likely to be scum.. but I wont throw away the option both sum were on the wagon either...

[Korlash]

Or it could be that the two scum were the turning points against holy... I didn't vote anyone because I barely saw any reason too...

No other explanations then that... ><

And yeah, I may not have "contributed much" as you said (Which is bull crap cause I know I have done a lot of good stuff) it more or less goes with what Lionden said:

"I know all about getting busy with school stuff, but one post to say "hey, I'm still alive, just a little busy" would have sufficed."

Would you rather I had just lurked all day?

Actually I would think Havok not voting people would be just because he was not here... Who knows...

[Korlash]

Ok, I feel we have all become at least semi-active enough that i can make a case.

First off... I have not done a complete reread here... Only like 5 pages... But I feel it is enough...

My top Suspect: Jmar..

His mist likely scumbuddy: Sir Torn

Maybe town but I can still see a few things I don't like about him: Lionden

Question mark- havok

That is mostly my scum list as of this moment. Now, on to the case...

seeing as how LYLO dictates we must lynch I need to get over my hatred of deadlines here... *prepares*

*hours later in theropy*

And then she votes me because of the deadline! I honestly believed her to be good too! Turns out she was scum! *cries*

*Hours later back home*

Now that I worked that out...

Vote: Jmar

Major FoS: Sir Torn

Reasons:

1) seeing as how Holy was actually lynched I am very inclined to believe both Scum are on the wagon. So I want to more or less only focus on you three (Especially until havok comes back...)

2) You were the hammer on Holy. Plain and simple I always think the hammer deserves to be looked at more then others.

2.5) You repeatedly went after Sir Torn yesterday, and even said Havok was your number one. Yet you clearly said you were willing to "Hammer Holy" and you did. If she was not your Number 1 then why hammer her?

3) You hammered her relatively quickly after Sir Torn placed his vote. I see this as you two trying to set up your defense of "We lynched her because of the deadline." And when you hammered her you said "The reasons I said before" and then gave an excuse as to why you did not post more. I cannot know if you were telling the truth or making up an excuse. Unfortunately if I were scum I would have hammered quickly and used an excuse to cover my reasonless vote too.

4) These quotes:

Logic says that the scum were probably on Holy's bandwagon. I realize this pretty much points to me. I'm town, and mith was obviously town. So that leaves me with Sir Torn and lionden. I don't find lionden too scummy, he's been very townish so far. Sir Torn has been lurking, but I guess that's his playstyle to an extent. He hasn't given me much to call him scummy besides being the last one to vote for mith. Like I said before, havok is still probably my top suspect, and Korlash I guess you're after that. But at lylo, I'd much rather go with the safer look at the people on the bandwagon. So I guess we should take a look at Sir Torn. I don't know, I have to reread.

That's exactly why I'm confused. If I was to go with my gut, I'd be voting for havok. But it's not a smart move at lylo because he wasn't on the wagon and I think at least one of the scum most likely was.

I've already said it, but basically because Sir Torn was on the bandwagon. It's the safer bet.

You keep saying you feel Sir Torn is a safe bet yet you do not Vote him... Kinda odd seeing as how yesterday you pretty much had your vote on him for most of the deadline (Unless I am mistaken)

To me... It seems like you are fence sitting, on one hand you are ready to bus your scum partner, on the other you want to be ready to hop on a Havok or myself Wagon should they happen.

Lastly:

...because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it...

This just stuck out at me... Because you were on the bandwagon, it eliminates one of the people off the wagon. I take this as a very bad scum slip up. You are more or less saying (I think) "Because I was on the bandwagon, one of the people off of it has to be town." And thus you are more or less saying you are mafia. I really hate basing my vote on something like this but i think it was just a bad scum slip up.

So there you have it... a "sort of" case against Jmar, with a "sort of" tie to Sir Torn as a scum partner...

Wait no I lied.. one other thing:

And once the deadline was on, he practically flat out refused to make a move on anybody. The person pushing him to make a vote? Mith, who turned up dead.

What, did you NK Mith so you could try and frame me today? I don't think it will work as any one of us (If scum) would have looked at Mith as the most obvious NK... Because you brought it up first, I am more inclined to believe you are scum trying to make your NK work in your favor by making me a scapegoat...

Ok so more then half of these are my personal feelings on the matter, but seeing as how we are in LYLO I have to go with my gut. And my gut says Jmar and Sir Torn...

I too am interested in hearing Havok's views.. and maybe a list from Lionden...

[Korlash]

What makes you say both? The town was so single-minded yesterday, this is something I noticed after rereading. Really, there was no othercandidate for lynch. It'd be perfectly feasible for both scum to stay off the wagon. I bet you would like to focus on us three, because it takes the spotlight off you and havok, a mistake I have already made multiple times today...

Actually seeing as how we actually lynched holy and not just deadline killed her I find it highly more likely both the scum were in on it. From my (Little) experience I have yet to see an actual lynch that did not involve both scum. BUT as I said this is from a very very tiny amount of games. I think it more likely that both scum would want to make sure Holy had died yesterday instead of just hoping she would die at deadline. Thus, my reasoning for that.

I was indeed. Why do you think that though?

I always find the person that hammers a towny deserves a small bit of suspicion thrown on him. It's my own beliefs, not everyone may agree with me here...

Ahem... when did I repeatedly go after Sir Torn? I mentioned multiple times I'd like to hear more from him, and I didn't like that he was lurking. I wouldn't say I repeatedly went after him, not in a major way. I'm not sure what this has to do with the rest of your point though.

your right that was totally my misunderstanding there. I was remember earlier today instead of yesterday when I wrote that. My mistake there...

I did. I wanted to get in before the deadline. But I didn't lynch her because of the deadline. I lynched her because I thought she was scum. I did have to run to class on that day, but I think it was pretty well established what I though of Holy. Again, you can reread if you don't believe me, I made plenty of posts outlining why I found her scummy. I mean, I said I would hammer her earlier in the day. If you had issue with it, why didn't you bring it up then?

And I can totally believe this. I too have made quick posts before because I had to be somewhere and I only wanted to get my stuff in there before I left. However, seeing as how I was bringing a case against you I had to look at things in ways they COULD be scummy.

As for the case against Holy I believe I more or less spelled out how much i felt it was BS yesterday... So whether or not you "had your reasons" I disagreed with them. So... I am more inclined to believe you just lynched her to end the day with a town death. Sorry...

You are mistaken, or you're grasping at straws. For most of the deadline, I had my vote on havok. I started off by voting Sir Torn, yes, and I kept my vote on him, but I didn't have a reason for it. It was a fun OMGUS vote because he voted me, leftover from the random phase. But I believe I changed to havok before the deadline or shortly thereafter. I was gonna give him a little while longer to show up before I voted him, but I was also dissuaded by the fact that he hadn't shown up in our other game either.

Yeah again sorry for that. I knew that you had voted Havok all deadline but when I wrote this my mind told me you had voted Sir Torn... No idea how that happened...

1) His jokes seem like a defense mechanism.

Always worried that is how they came off... They really aren't though. In my own crazy way, my jokes are how I scum hunt... I know, weird...

2) His unwillingness to vote... as outlined in my last post.

I did not feel anyone had enough to qualify for a lynch. And come deadline, every vote could in fact be a part of a lynch (Deadline kill)... So I did not vote to prevent any seconds before deadline hopping...

3) His lack of substance to his posts. Sure, he's made a ton, more than anybody here, but do they really do anything? Is he actively scum-hunting? No. He comments on what others say, or makes a joke.

I personally feel commenting on what others say to be a very good scum hunting tool. Either I strengthen what you say and thus help hunt whoever you are talking to/about, or I weaken your case and thus am hunting you. I may not have any original ideas (often) but that doesn't mean I am not playing this game.

4) Connection with havok, who I believe to be his scumbuddy: It looks like they're actively not trying to have one, they've just been kind of "meh" toward each other. Korlash barely responded to any of my posts about havok- neither have really made a judgment call either way to each other. Notice Korlash's assessment of havok in his last post- "question mark." He doesn't say anything either way, which is what he's an expert at. With havok's first post, Korlash calls him "smart." havok appears to want to create the impression of not being partners by insulting Korlash's puns.

this is a good point. My defense: I havn't really seen enough of him lately to qualify any feelings toward him at all.

My question to Lionden: Do you think this strengthens a havok/jmar partnership? Or would it strengthen a Sir Torn/ Jmar partnership? Just your feelings on the matter would be nice...

5) His reaction right here. It took someone shining the light on him to make his first post of real substance (I'd venture to say it's definitely his longest of the day, I could be wrong). If I've been his top suspect all along, why no vote? (The one after I hammered Holy doesn't count). His playstyle does almost a complete 180 here- he's no longer the nice guy who makes jokes- the claws have come out.

That is a nice metaphor... Rowr! I do have a reason for my jokes, my lack of content, and even yes my unwillingness to vote yesterday. And for good reason too. After last night I believe it paid off. If I can figure out your partner we have this game won...

Also... Post 188:

OMG... If I had contradicted myself I would totally not Vote: Jmar right now.

a) I did vote you, and B) this plainly destroys that "Korlash did not vote anyone yesterday!" thing you said earlier... So yeah, i did vote you before. And I waited a bit to vote you today in hopes people woudl get more active and I wouldn;t have to press this so fast.

Wait... what? I was saying because I know I'm town, that makes it less likely for both scum to be on the bandwagon, from my point of view, especially since I don't get a scummy vibe from lionden. How is that a slip up, or how does that mean I'm saying I'm mafia? From your point of view, sure- you see 3 suspects on the bandwagon, so of course you're gonna say it's more likely both are on. From mine, I only see two.

Yeah what you said could be taken either way. Could be a bad misunderstanding/bad way of wording things, or a very very lucky scum slip up. Either way this is more or less what your case on holy was based on yesterday so I do appreciate the irony of me using it! =D

Here we get into WIFOM territory again. Because I did bring up "Mith as a resource to the town" and all that, couldn't I just as easily say you killed him to set me up, but I took the wind out of your sails by bringing it up first? That's circular logic. I'm just saying that the person who was pushing for you to make a vote and take a stance is the one who ended up with a bullet in his head. At the same time, I don't think his pushing you to make a vote was so obvious as to dissuade you from pulling the trigger.

Personally? If I were scum I woulda killed off Lionden... No connection to me at all, obviously not the best doc choice, and even slight odds he turns out to be Doc. I woulda been against a Mith lynch as it woudl either be too obvious doc protection, or he woudl make a good scapegoat. I was really surprised he was the choice.. Makes me think Sir Torn is not the other mafia as, begin an IC, he would have probably known this. But I will not rule him out just yet...

Anyways... I would like to know exactly what Lionden feels on the situation because he is the only other person I truely think is town. (Mostly because he was the first on the actual Holy lynching wagon out of you three.)

and I am leaning more into the Sir Torn/Jmar partnership right now... mainly because as I have said, not enough from Havok to go on I think...

I am also interested in which one of us will get the first Second vote... And from who... I think as long as none of the other townies do anything rash we stand a very very very good chance of winning this game...

[Korlash]

No i wanted no body lynched... And thus I did not vote. Not that hard to understand... maybe hard to comprehend yes, hard to believe most likely, but plain and simple straight forward.

I still don't understand how what I said could be a scum slip up. Am I missing something obvious? Because your logic is not making sense to me. Please explain what you're thinking in detail, because I don't see another way in which it can be taken (maybe because I'm reading it with the knowledge that I'm town?)

Well... Seeing as how you asked...

You said:
"..because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it..."

Now look at it from my side.

You just said that because you were on the bandwagon you knew one of the people off the band wagon must be town. Because there is only two scum, that must mean your saying one of the scum must be on the bandwagon. And the way you said it seems like you were more or less saying You knew this because you were the scum on the bandwagon. Kinda a hard angle to press I know, but you pulled it off against Holy yesterday so I figure it will work against you too.

I think this could further my suspicions of Havok.. but I can also see it as furthering my suspicions of Sir Torn.. man i really wish it was one of them I knew was mafia... damnit...

[Korlash]

wouldn't you want a deadline hop to somebody else?

i did not want ANYBODY F***ing lynched dude... you, holy, mith, sir torn, myself.. NO ONE! Not at that deadline... And I know how bad that makes me look, but I honestly did not want to see anyone die yesterday. So no, I did not want people to vote hop onto someone else. I wanted you and sir torn to continue not voting for holy.

And apparently I did have the towns best interest in mind seeing as how I was against killing one... >.> (Yeah... I went there...)

I do have the towns best interests in mind. Eliminating you, then your partner. All I wanted was to get to a night without making myself look too bad. Which I did. Doesn't look like I will be able to get to a second night though... Oh well one was enough. I caught you didn't I? Too bad you guys got lucky with the doc... Oh well...

[Korlash]

I find that to be a huge scum tell btw, not that I could really find you any scummier.

Key reason I am trying to avoid it. so far I have done a pretty good job I think... Other then that little burst that is...

While it does make a game very uncomfortable and annoying it is in no way a scumtell. As much as you wish it were in this situation.

You talk as if you knew Holy was town though... that's the vibe I get from "you were against killing one.

Yeah that was a joke BTW cause everyone kept saying I was going to pull the "I told you so card!"

you used the word "kill" again btw

I have been using the word kill for half the game... Nice try trying to bring your partner's earlier iffy case back up.

This is the scummiest thing you've said so far. That's the scum's goal. The town's goal is to hunt scum.

Oh I was scum hunting, I found a scum, I got confirmed the scum, and now I am lynching the scum. I think I did my job really well...

You're the one who's been caught, sir. Multiple times. I'm just waiting for everyone else to come in and see the light.

Oh I hope they do see the light... And I hope Havok gets back in time because I do not see your partner hammering you today... I do enjoy this last minute shuffle your going through though... I find it kinda funny really...

[Korlash]

First it's havok is "a bit more scummy" because at least one scum is on the wagon. Then you say "you won't throw away the option both scum were on the wagon" as if it's an afterthought, or a second option behind havok and one other on the wagon. Then, 5 POSTS LATER, you say you want to focus on the three on the wagon, and you're "very inclined to believe both Scum are on the wagon."?! You keep contradicting yourself, over and over. What gives?

A) I said I would not throw out the possibility that both cum were on the wagon so no it is not a contradiction.

B) I am beginning to believe more and more sir Torn to be your partner (Although his inactivity doesn't really help there.) And so I am less inclined to believe havok as the other mafia... Then again his inactivity is also unhelpful...

It certainly is if you've been a nice guy making jokes all game, and you suddenly have an outburst here. In fact, I think that's a huge tell. Your playstyle suddenly shifted completely. If you're so confident you've caught scum and I'm not bringing up a good case against you, you shouldn't be having outbursts.

Your right, I shouldn't be. Bad Korlash... bad lama! =D

seriously... I hate when I have to repeat myself three posts in a row. So yeah, I got a little flustered... More to the point I am getting even more flustered at the lack of positing from the others... Unnerving... >.> Here I am with a confirmed scum and not enough active players to lynch him...

How have you "got confirmed the scum?" Also, you haven't actively scum-hunted until now, which, coincidentally, was after I began taking a look at you and your posts throughout the game. I'm just gonna repost that quote of yours again, because if it doesn't scream scum I don't know what does...

Oh I have been scum hunting... in my own little way.. Trying to find a likely candidate... As for my confirmation... Well... If you haven't figured that out by now I'm not going to tell ya...

I bet you do. You need your scum buddy if you want to lynch me.

Nope.. just the other two town... Your partner's vote will be nice though...

By "shuffle," do you mean "finding the scum, proving him wrong multiple times, and watching him dodge/ignore almost every question I've asked you so far?" And if you do, how are you enjoying it? Before you seemed pretty pissed off.

Actually I find it really funny it is just you and me posting here... I would think that an action like this would have spawned some discussion... That really is pissing me off...

As for your "Shuffling" I personally see most of your points as BS but that is because I know who I am and who you are. But to the others it may or may not mean anything. Point is it doesn't really matter. You die today, I get NKed and it is all up the two remaining town to figure out the partner... So this arguing we are having just seems funny to me... Not trying to say your not a good arguer... I meant it when I said it has been enjoyable ^^

[Korlash]

Sure I am the cop. I don't fear any counter claim other then from your partner... Which is most likely what is going to happen...

I haven't been pussy-footing around as you say, I was kinda hoping that I could drop the hint without attracting the NK tonight but alas I lost that about... 20 posts ago >< So I have more or less accepted my fate tonight.

*sighs* if the other town do not show up and your partner does I am dead come deadline and we lose... At least I did my part...

[Korlash]

As he said... there isn't much I can do.. *Although because there is a Doc the chance of a cop drops to 25%-75%*

So yeah, lying about it is a great gamble. I will not refute that. All I know is I am the cop and I foudn a scum.

And what defense do I need? Half of your accusations were more or less meaningless * I think*

If you want to give me a list of these so called accusations I will gladly make my own list of the defenses I gave. I have no fear because I know there is no accusation you can bring against me as I really am who I say I am.

[Korlash]

Oh right.. I was basing it off the original Cop, doc, both, or none principal. Yoru right it does more or less become 50/50 now...

Um.. It's a gamble for the town to trust me or trust your scum partner... Plain and simple. How does that "betray my non existent scuminess?"

I wont backtrack because for the most part I answered anything you said I thought was even close to a good attack at me. You can say all you want I never defended myself it more or less doesn't matter to me because I knwo I am right and your just a caught scum.

But I feel I indulged your "cases" rather well...

[Korlash]

Yeah If I was lying I am dead come deadline. Plain and simple. We lose anyways if I don't admit my guilty investigation, so I figure I would actually give the town a scum instead of forcing us to do another gay random lynch. I have accepted my death and I leave it up to you guys to find the last scum...

[Korlash]

Korlash is claiming a cop? I am fairly sceptical about this claim... Korlash, WHY did you investigate jmar if you are indeed the cop?

I already told you guys, I feel the person who hammers is always suspicious. So I investigated him. Also I had a few suspicions of Jmar yesterday. Not nearly enough to think he was worth a vote, but enough to further my investigation on him. I was half wanting to investigate Mith... Guess I got lucky.

And since we've heard from everyone and no one has counterclaimed, it leaves a few things still up in the air. Sad

To be honest this is unnerving... His partner should counterclaim no matter what... I suppose Havok can still do it but I was 100% certain Sir Torn was going to counter my claim... Hmmm...

@Sir Torn: This is where his unwillingness to take a stance on anybody yesterday comes into play. He set himself up perfectly for a cop claim today. He could theoretically have investigated anybody last night because he didn't really definitively have a suspect yesterday.

No, I just didn't want to drop any "hints" or clues that cops may or may not do. This is my first time being a cop and so I figured I would try and stay below the radar. But I was telling the truth when I said I did not find any one o you guys suspicious...

@lionden_56: Think of it this way. People are just more inclined to believe a cop claim, but it's a logical fallacy. It was a gutsy move for Korlash, but even if he's counterclaimed it's his word against someone else's. One of us is lying. All things considered, it's 50-50 as to who could be lying. The thing that's gonna swing it in someone's favor is the arguments. Korlash's is basically "I investigated him and he's scum." I think mine are a bit more thorough.

You think yours are more thorough, I however see no way to get more thorough then a guilty investigation.

I'm in a tough position, because I don't have a partner. That's basically two votes on me right there. It's up to me to convince both of my fellow townies to go against a claimed cop. So as risky as it was for Korlash to claim cop, he's in better shape than I am.

Not really. If I am, and I am not, faking my claim then I would be sure to get 2 votes, you and the real cop. enough to lynch me come deadline. While on the other hand If I am telling the truth I am sure to get two votes, yours, and then you partner's 2 min before deadline... I am banking on the town having some faith in me here I I know, but the fact I am right makes me feel I am doing the right thing.

I'm very well aware of the 50-50 "my word v. your word" battle that a counterclaim can bring. In fact, I brought it up a few posts ago when I said that if he's scum he wants a counterclaim so we can get into an argument that would lead right up to the deadline.

I already told you if you guys don't believe me I am dead. If I am faking it I am dead. If you do trust me I am dead tonight. Either way I die. At least I get to know I did my part! (also I did a good job of hiding the fact I was cop! yay for me! Seriously I am very ecstatic about this ^^)

My reasons are laid out on the previous page, but I can't lie about those- my evidence is right in the thread.

I already told you I feel I answered all your stuff. If there is something you don't agree with or something you feel i ignored please refresh my memory. If not just cross your fingers you are able to survive until the deadline.

Heres the bad news... Even if we lynch Jmar we still haven't won. I think you guys should post who you think is his partner or have some discussion about that for tomorrow... I was sure his partner would counter claim but I guess they are smarter then to out themselves... Hmmm... I still like Sir Torn but I need to read Havok's post when he posts it too...

[Korlash]

That's a very vague and convenient explanation. Basically any claimed power role could use this as a defense. Also, you JUST SAID you had a few suspicions of me yesterday, in the SAME POST. That's contradiction #5404958, but who's counting?

right right I trailed off, it was suppose to be "suspicious enough to lynch"... But yeah. Valid point... and that is like your bajillionth Exaggeration there...

You're missing the part where that's something easy to lie about, while my reasons are foolproof- you can check the thread if you don't believe me.

ha ha ha... ahhh... there is at least one fool...

Unless there is no real cop, which is looking to be the case, which throws this whole statement out the window.

No I am the cop. Or more to the point, yes I am the real cop.

[Korlash]

Opps hit Submit prematurely...

Stop acting so noble. Your death doesn't really factor into the equation, because in everyone else's eyes, there's still a good chance you're scum (in my eyes, 100%). If you trust him, we're all dead tonight, because the scum will win. You say "either way you die" but again you're not factoring in the part where YOU'RE SCUM AND YOU WIN IF WE TRUST YOU.

Your right, everyone else has to think that that is a plausible scenario. I will do my best to convince you guys here but more or less it is up to you. It will actually come down to who you trust me, me or Jmar...

Oh and seriously if you guys saw something he said in the last page that really stands out or that you feel I need to better explain on just tell me so. because it was just me and him and I know he was panicking cause I caught him I more or less took his BS in stride...

This wasn't really addressed to you, it was addressed to everyone else. I already know you're scum, remember? You confirmed it when you claimed I was scum with a cop investigation. So why would I still be debating my previous points with you? I'm not gonna give you an opportunity to backtrack and clarify your points now. If you feel you need to, the posts are all there for you. I was unhappy with a lot of what you posted because a lot of my points weren't addressed or they were addressed superficially or even conceded to me. But none of it matters to me now because you've revealed to me that you're scum.

Fine by me. Until I see some actual valid point I see no reason even listening to your lies.

Yes, you and your partner have won if you lynch me.

Nope your partner will still be alive...

So how is their input as to "my partner" useful to you?

It will be useful to them tomorrow. Duh...

Maybe you want to take the spotlight off me and you and get away with an easy lynch as the town discusses suspects for tomorrow? Way to throw in your scumbuddy's name at the end there to make it look less suspicious btw. Not obvious at all.

I think your pulling at straws here. With the spotlight thing. The Sir Torn has merit.

Hypothetically, if I was scum I woudl certainly throw my scum buddy's name out as your partner that is for sure. Logically I would want to gain the other town's trust so they would be more inclined to believe me. A very good scum move, but overall a very bad move should I be "caught" and then "game over"!!!!

It does seem like a good case for you to bring against me here. However... Would you be more inclined to do that if Sir Torn really was your partner? Or would you be more inclined should Sir Town actually be one of the other town? As scum you know his affiliation. Hmmm... You guys should consider this tomorrow. It could point to both town and scum, depending on how you view it.

(Sorry, just my opinion for you all to use tomorrow =D)

[Korlash]

Meant Havok? He had points? o.O Wheres?

[Korlash]

Oh cause see I keep saying Sir Torn is my best pick... Weird...

Ehh whatever... This game is pretty much lost if the other player's don;t post... that or it will end up being them taking a chance... I would much like to get their input here so they I can defend myself in their eyes while simletaniously (SP)hopefully making my case on you stronger. This bickering between just us two will get us nowhere fast...

See! In the last minute we have gotten nowhere.. how fast was that? O.o

[Korlash]

I tend to agree with jmar right now, mainly because I did find some of Korlash's end D1 play scummy. Looking back of Korlash's claim, I begin to feel that he required a bit of prompting from jmar rather than come out with it outright. I think we should check his early D2 play. If he is cop and indeed get a guilty on jmar, he would come out strongly against jmar on D2. That's what I expect cops to do when they get guilty; go through the play of the person they got guilty on, and check if he did anything scummy. Did Korlash do anything like that?

Honestly all I could think to do was joke about killing him every chance I got... I wanted to wait until activity picked up but that never happened... So no, I didn't...

Anyways, Jmar's argument feels better to me, but the fact that Korlash had the guts to claim cop still holds some weight. I'm going to postpone my vote just a little bit longer. It'll be coming after I get back from work tonight.

It isn't gutsy. Being the actual cop I know what I am doing and so the only counterclaim I was afraid of was his partners. I didn't actually want to claim today, I jsut wanted to focus more on Jmar and really really take everything he said under a fine tooth comb and what not but the lack of activity pretty much sealed the deal we HAVE to lynch a mafia and so here we are.

Adn even though I know yoru going to accuse me of "Only looking at one part blah blah blah"...

I'm sure he'll claim he was looking out for his own survival in not claiming immediately, but I think it would have taken a lot more guts to claim right away. The way he did it was clearly out of desperation. Was it a risky move? To an extent, but again, he ended up in a much better position than me.

Yeah it was out of desperation. I was desperate that there was a deadline coming and we would LOSE! So the only option was to claim. If I was mafia I would have kept quiet and let the deadline roll in. At least I get to say I did something for the town this game! My sacrifice will not be in vain! <3

I was bringing a pretty hard case against him.

*sigh*... I'll say it again.. I cannot remember you ever bringing ANYTHING good against me today aside from that one time I actually made a mistake... I have told you repeatedly to give me whatever the heck I "didn't answer" or what not yet you refuse too... You keep coming back to "Korlash's answers were BS and blah blah blah!" because that is your only saving grace. I guess your partner is too afraid to speak up because he fears the town will believe me and then he will be outed tomorrow... But I know he will be speaking up before the deadline... Only question.. will he Bus? Or will he go for the win?

Then at the beginning of the day, he doesn't do anything. He waits for someone to make a move against him, and that person just happens to be the guy he found guilty?

It's not a bad argument... The mere fact that there were only three active people all day is something you have in your favor. And it is something I could not prevent, nor can I actually defend myself on it. I got lucky with my investigation. My suspicions were right. Yay me! But I didn't "Not do anything" I waited for people to show up. And when I say only three people, one of which I knew was scum, and a deadline coming up o.O I was like... "F*** this!"

And which one of us actually made the first move I wonder... I could have sworn it was me...

That makes no sense. The town will have time to discuss partners tomorrow, assuming we make it there and they lynch you, and we'll have a lot more info from who voted for who. Considering we're a day away from deadline and the only people voting are me and you, this isn't what we should be focusing on right now, by any stretch of the imagination.

Your kidding right? After today I doubt the town will have time to do ANYTHING tomorrow... Damn lurkers... Which ever one of you is town between Havok and Sir Torn you suck... Ok maybe not but still... This deadline hurts you know...

Also a quick little "I think so and so is the partner" will not take up a whole lot of time here... I think your trying wayyyy to hard to make me sound like the one wasting our time. But whatever, I too would jump on little things to save my ass...

Ok i am going to do a once over Day two and see exactly what these so called good cases Jmar had on me are. I will post my opinions and then hope you guys come to the right Decision. Either way it has been fun playing with you guys! Go us! ^^

Seriously... Post back in a minute.. *Ok more like 30...*

[Korlash]

Ok I was going to skip it but I feel it may be a deciding factor...

Also, how likely is it that he investigated me the night before (even he says he almost investigated mith, which seems more likely in my opinion if he really was a cop giving their arguments Day 1)?

First off I would not be so dumb as to say that if I weren't telling the truth. I know my feelings on Mith were well known, and I truly believed he would be alive today... But I still had that nagging feeling about you. And your hammer sealed it for me. Well that plus the fact if He was alive today and we had a NK that went through I would have been able to use that as a pretty good reason to hound him today.

I guess that is about it... Reread thing up next... I promise..

[Korlash]

Well seing as how Jmar's death still leaves another day, I figured I will point other things out as well...:

Post 290:

Joking aside, I think this thread deserves a reread from me, so I may post tomorrow. Also, I was inactive because I have been very busy with schoolwork--I don't know whose arguments this helps or hurts because I haven't read the arguments of the last couple pages very closely (I'm saving that for a reread), but I think it's important to get it all out there.

Well? Were is it?

Post 295:

If I don't see a serious uptick in posting, you all will be getting a deadline (bad thing for town in lylo).

The treat of the deadline... Here is about the time where I figured.. Oh... I cannot do the same thing I did yesterday... And so I was beginning to see the need for outing Jmar...

Post 299:

Well I don't have too much to say I guess. Logic says that the scum were probably on Holy's bandwagon. I realize this pretty much points to me. I'm town, and mith was obviously town. So that leaves me with Sir Torn and lionden. I don't find lionden too scummy, he's been very townish so far. Sir Torn has been lurking, but I guess that's his playstyle to an extent. He hasn't given me much to call him scummy besides being the last one to vote for mith. Like I said before, havok is still probably my top suspect, and Korlash I guess you're after that. But at lylo, I'd much rather go with the safer look at the people on the bandwagon. So I guess we should take a look at Sir Torn. I don't know, I have to reread.

Honestly I see think you did this to try and Bus Sir Torn... This is where I first began to think of Sir Torn as your most likely partner... As throwing his name out there would be safe for you.

But you also put Havok as number one... So are you like me and would throw your own partner's name out there or would you be safe and say your partner is number one but try to get th focus on another? Hmmm... I didn't think of that one before...

So far neither of us has really come up with a case on the other...

Post 300:

... So you basically say "I think the people on the badndwagon are the ones we should focus on" More or less. then say me and havok are the two most scummy... Yeah... thats not making sense at all...

As I said I figured it was time to focus on you and thus here we have me taking a small crack at you. It is more sarcastic then an actual attack but I felt I needed more out of you if I was going to make a case without a claim.

Post 302:

seriously I feel Sir Torn or you would be the most likely choices FROM the Bandwagon.. and because I am me I feel Havok is the most likely choice form OFF the bandwagon... Hmmmm...

This is all off his post 299 where I said I felt he was outing his partner. Thus why I felt Sir Torn was the other one most likely. *Although Lionden hasn't really done anything has he...*

then I finish with:

]I actually feel both scum have a higher chance of being on the wagon... Which is why I have Sir Torn and you Jmar as my top two... No offense you know... Dang *Deadline*gunna make me go all Non votey again isn't it... Frick... Quick lets lynch someone now =P (Kidding...)

Again focusing mainly on you and who I think your partner is.

Still no real cases brought up.. Interesting.. However I feel post 300 was the first "shot" taken. Although I bet you can argue post 299 was a small "shot" at me, but I don;t really think it was. So your statement I went after the person who came after me seems... Um... Bull crap to me.

Post 305:

That's how you feel, because you're not on the bandwagon. Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off of it, and I don't feel lionden is scum. I'm certainly not saying you and havok aren't scum, but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon. The least likely scenario in my book is that you and havok are scum-buddies and both managed to stay off the bandwagon. If you are, you've done a good job so far. I'd like to vote Sir Torn right now to put some pressure on him, but it opens it up for a quick lynch, so I can't really.

This is one of the weirdest and most confusing post I ever read...

"Since I am, that eliminates one of the people off it." We already dicussed this so I will not bring it up again, but I said why this was odd to me.

Now that I reread it this is odd too:

"I'm certainly not saying you and havok aren't scum, but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon."

If you think it is safer to lynch someone off the bandwagon, why even mention you are not saying we are not scum? It just seems oddly worded to me... So you ARE saying we aren't scum? Or you aren't saying we are scum? I just don't get it...

Post 309:

No, didn't mean that at all. Just because the other two aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't watching the thread.

Ok first you try to say I MAY be scum because I was the first to post and you disclude both Havok and Sir Torn because they haven't posted.. now you are saying it is likely thy re watching the thread... sounds like a small change of heart. Just throwing that out there in case people want to use the fact I posted first against me today. Also it shows a somewhat small contradiction on your part. Well better termed "Changed mind" I think...

Post 310:

It might not be though. It's very possible havok and Sir Torn are lurking, waiting to pounce, especially after a chance to talk at night. If I make a vote, I don't want to have to keep looking back at the thread to make sure nobody puts a second vote on him. Talking, they could have exchanged personal contact info, like AIM screennames or something. So the scenario could go (for arguments sake lets say you and havok are scumbuddies)

1) I place a vote on Sir Torn.

2) I go to bed.

3) You see this, chat up your buddy havok on AIM.

4) Both of you come in and place your votes.

5) The town loses Sad

Farfetched? A bit, but a vote's not worth the risk IMO at this point.

Again you mention Sir torn... But it is from your previous example.. However you claim you both to be town in the example and both me and havok to be scum. (I understand it was hypothetical)

I think this could be a time where you are trying to make your partner look more "innocent" But again, it was all hypothetical.. But even that does not automatically mean I can disregard it...

So far all I have is stuff on who could be your partner.. and the reasons I think it is Sir Torn...

We could just all take a gamble and vote sir Torn here. If he turns out scum then even if when I die tonight we still have Jmar's investigation and we will win... But I would rather go for the sure thing myself... To late to debate this I think.

Post 318:

Day 2 deadline time. It'll hit at 11 a.m. EST Friday, November 16 (about one week from this post).

You know the rules -- this time it'll take two votes at deadline, three before. You read that right.

Shoot...

post 320:

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have a deadline right now, they should be replaced if they don't respond to their prods- the majority of us are posting, but we can't really get anywhere without them. Anyways, if they don't show up I'm ready to vote Sir Torn.

I asked "Why him over sir Torn?" and you answered:

I've already said it, but basically because Sir Torn was on the bandwagon. It's the safer bet.

... In post 305 you said:
"but the safe play is to lynch somebody off the bandwagon." Now you say it is safer to lynch someone on the bandwagon.. Hmmm... Contradict much?

Post 328:

Jmar, I have one particular problem with your theory about me being scum because I was on last lynch. It doesn't actually apply. Stoofer's law is applicable only in the instances where a lynch takes place, instead of a deadline, and I am not scum really.

Hmmm... he comes in after being gone almost forever just to say something that is false... that is just great... He certainly isn't making himself look better in my eyes...

Post 329:

This may be reaching a little, but my thoughts right now a slightly leaning in Korlash's favor...because of the speed of the night actions and because of the fact that he didn't vote for Holy. Its a great defense to be able to say "I'm not scum because I wasn't on the bandwagon for her." and as scum he would have known she was town and knew that argument would have been legit.

.. I assume by in my favor you mean to vote me... And Again you bring up the nights speed... You keep changing your mind... Have they been watchign the thread as lurkers or what?

Post 332:

My reread brought up something I find very interesting... neither Korlash nor havok voted for anybody on Day 1

Oh that is great. your entire case against me starts off with a lie. Yeah... You have such a solid case![/sarcasm]

Although he posts a lot, Korlash hasn't contributed much of substance in the long run. He repeatedly stated he didn't find Holy all that scummy, but at the same time didn't really pick a side or attempt to prevent her lynch. And once the deadline was on, he practically flat out refused to make a move on anybody. The person pushing him to make a vote? Mith, who turned up dead.

And your point is? I did not see enough reason to lynch her, and so i was against it. Also I did not want to tip any of the scum's radars so I stayed more or less off of the other people. I actually find it funny the only person I voted was the scum XD

As for Mith... He was obvious, doc protection, wanted to investigate, didn't... That more or less sums up everything we have ids cussed about him.

Post 334:

No, I'd rather you have looked at everyone's posts an formulated an opinion/case against someone. I don't mean to say all your posts are worthless, but you mostly commented on what other people brought up rather than actively scum hunt.

That is pretty vague... No examples to support it.. also commenting on what people say is the only real way to scum hunt. You analyze what they post and formulate discussion off of it. What... Should I have commented on what people ate? Or what they read? How about the color of their eyes?

Post 335:

...Vote: Jmar

Major FoS: Sir Torn
...
Ok so more then half of these are my personal feelings on the matter, but seeing as how we are in LYLO I have to go with my gut. And my gut says Jmar and Sir Torn...

This was me trying to do it without claiming. I gave reasons. Gave my suspicion of yoru partner, and even tried to play it off as a "gut feeling". Not the most perfect way to get my investigaton out but the deadline was coming up and I needed more from you.

I wont talk about the reasons.. you can see post 335/336/337 for the discussion on them.

Post 336:

Really, there was no othercandidate for lynch.

So you automatically assume the town started the wagon on her.. nice... That is exactly what people should automatically believe and use as reasons to suspect the town.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, I don't feel much like rereading that far but I am willing to bet you had something to do with Holy's bandwagon, if only it was attacks on her and not a vote.

Korlash proposes a no lynch. This trips my scumdar bigtime, since it contradicts what he said before. We argue, but again, I drop the issue as Holy continues to look scummy.

... When did I do this? I said I would rather not lynch anyone then lynch someone for gay reasons because of a deadline. I did not say the No lynch was the best thing to do and I never voted No lynch.

I am beginning to see a pattern, your case began with BS, ha some BS in the middle, then more BS! I wonder how it ends? Me being lynched because of BS? I hope not...

So basically, everytime I thought I saw something with havok or Korlash, I inevitably started to look back at Holy. Her mistakes were too big to ignore, and I think I allowed havok and Korlash to slip through the cracks.

Or did you just continue to push her wagon because you knew she had a good chance of being lynched? Nice... You drove the wagon that lynched a town, and even dropped the hammer... Yeah your obviously a town yourself! [/sarcasm]

Ahem... when did I repeatedly go after Sir Torn? I mentioned multiple times I'd like to hear more from him, and I didn't like that he was lurking. I wouldn't say I repeatedly went after him, not in a major way. I'm not sure what this has to do with the rest of your point though.

Oh my mistake... Literally. I said your only good cases was when I messed up that one time, forgot about this one. So you have had TWO really good cases against me. Each was a time I was mistaken. I cannot defend myself for my mistakes like this so I figure it is all a matter of trust. I just hope I am showing just how little Jmar has on me... and that it is enough to convince you I am telling the truth. If not... Good game I guess...

As for why I hammered Holy, it's pretty simple. I harped on havok all day , about how I thought he was scummy, with little effect. People barely took a second look at her.

WHAT? You just said "She was the only lynch candidate" How is that possible if "People barely took a second look at her." ??????

How's this for fence sitting? I'll start the wagon. Looking over both days, I'm ready to Vote: Korlash

Ok fair enough, I voted you so you vote me back. I can see both scum and town doing this so it proves nothing.

1) His jokes seem like a defense mechanism. I've noted this since the beginning. (okay, not the strongest argument... they get better)

Seem like a defense mechanism? i hope you have proof.. I have been joking long before I needed a defense for anything...

2) His unwillingness to vote... as outlined in my last post.

No evidence to vote, didn't want to lynch town, didn't want to get on mafia's bad side. All three played an equal part that ended with me VOTING YOU! Hello? I did it twice even... Sure on didn't count.. but I still did...

3) His lack of substance to his posts. Sure, he's made a ton, more than anybody here, but do they really do anything? Is he actively scum-hunting? No. He comments on what others say, or makes a joke.

Ehh sure I post a lot of nonesense, but I post about the same amount of good stuff as you do. So I find it reaching to say my posts "Lack substance." SOME do... yes... and those can be chalked up to the "Hi guys I am still here" thing Lionden said. Other then that, nice try trying to make it look like i am worthless BTW... If you were abel to meta me (Only have two games done XD) You would see I post this way in every game. So It is more or less BS.

4) Connection with havok, who I believe to be his scumbuddy: It looks like they're actively not trying to have one, they've just been kind of "meh" toward each other. Korlash barely responded to any of my posts about havok- neither have really made a judgment call either way to each other. Notice Korlash's assessment of havok in his last post- "question mark." He doesn't say anything either way, which is what he's an expert at. With havok's first post, Korlash calls him "smart." havok appears to want to create the impression of not being partners by insulting Korlash's puns.

Notice the number of posts Havok has had this day: 1...

I think that qualifies for a "?" His first post was 14 pages ago... In the random stage... great piece of evidence you have there...

And the puns thing is just pathetic... is that the only bit of "linkage" you find between us? Man.. You really are desperate aren't you...

5) His reaction right here. It took someone shining the light on him to make his first post of real substance (I'd venture to say it's definitely his longest of the day, I could be wrong). If I've been his top suspect all along, why no vote? (The one after I hammered Holy doesn't count). His playstyle does almost a complete 180 here- he's no longer the nice guy who makes jokes- the claws have come out.

Again, voted you twice yesterday.. That is three times you have used that as evidence against me and all three times you have been wrong. Your "solid case" seems to be tilting a little.. I think You should take some of the BS off the top...

The reaction you mentioned was the thing about how I misunderstood yoru post. I mentioned it earlier, we have already covered it, if it is fine with you I will skip it as it will end up us both repeating ourselves. IF you need me too i will go over it again but because I have so little time.. i move on!

Post 338:

My apologies for missing your vote. Still, I don't think it really destroys my argument, since you unvoted three posts later. It was barely noticeable, didn't even show up in a vote count.

For the amount of times you brought it up, yeah it more or less discredits you a lot... At least that is how I feel. If you are constantly wrong on something, or have been basing a lot of your case on me on a misunderstanding, your case is more or less destroyed. At least that is how I saw it.

So, you wanted Holy lynched then? I mean, that's how I'm reading it. I'm not gonna lie, I wanted Holy lynched too, but thus far you've represented yourself as not wanting that to happen. You didn't want any other bandwagons forming at deadline, right?

I answered this but I feel I need to say it again. I did not want to lynch anyone yesterday because I saw no evidence too. If I had seen enough on someone I would have voted them. In retrospect I saw enough on you to vote twice. So I guess I have good instincts.

No, it's not straight-forward. If you're scum, which I believe you are, you do want somebody lynched. And you look better off in that regard if you do not vote. Thus you can want somebody to be lynched without voting for them.

This is too WIFOM... I can turn it around to say you just said you look worse for being on the wagon, and how you wanted her lynched and blah blah blah. Asian I hate WIFOM and any subforms of the word. (I think this example is actually less WIFOM and more "You may be mafia becuase you did not do what I think a mafia should have!")

Now you said, and I quote again, that you didn't vote to prevent any last second deadline hopping. If you didn't want Holy lynched, then wouldn't you want a deadline hop to somebody else? And if you wanted nobody lynched, then were you advocating a no-lynch?

This is where you ask the exact question I had just answered. And also where I snapped. (I guess that part of you case was good too.. So I snapped, and my two mistakes.. So far that is all you have...)

Furthermore this is the second time you claim I was "Advocating a no lynch!" I knwo I never did this because I know how bad a no lynch is. If you can show me a post where I said "Hey guys how about us not lynching anyone and just ending the day now!" with any sincerity behind it then yeah, I guess you have me contradicting myself. If not, You have twice claimed I have contradicted, and twice been lying. That is so far 5 times you based your case on me over false information. I guess your "solid case" needs work eh?

Dang i keep forgetting to put my cop tells in.. anyways:

Post 342:

This is the scummiest thing you've said so far. That's the scum's goal. The town's goal is to hunt scum.

In response to me saying:

All I wanted was to get to a night without making myself look too bad.

Which is one of the first times I actually started bread crumbing my Cop thing. However I have recently learned bread crumbing only really works like the day before you claim and so I admit this was not the best play for me. Like I said, first time being cop here.

It certainly is if you've been a nice guy making jokes all game, and you suddenly have an outburst here. In fact, I think that's a huge tell. Your playstyle suddenly shifted completely. If you're so confident you've caught scum and I'm not bringing up a good case against you, you shouldn't be having outbursts.

You think I'm a nice guy/ T_T Oh that is so nice! ;_;

Ok that aside... I did change my style, I had to become more aggressive. Otherwise Deadline would have come and we would have lost.

Post 347:

I'm not the cop, so... If there is a cop out there, DO NOT CLAIM right now. Wait for Korlash to say he's the cop, since that seems to be where he's going with "confirmation." Let's take this scum down.

I like how you pretend to care about the cop's secrecy until the scum has claimed. Setting it up so my claim looks bad eh/ Not a bad strategy. I would have went with the pre-claim myself... but whatever...

Post 349:

Look at my posts and Korlash's on this page. Read them carefully. You'll notice he has very little defense for any of my accusations, and his case against me is weak. Think about what you would do in his situation. His only play is to claim cop. That's something you can lie about. He can't make stuff up to get me lynched other than that, because it's not there. Almost every argument he brings up is soundly defeated. Lastly, do a reread. Look at the connection between him and havok. You'll find what I'm saying is true.

... Yeah... Your posts have been soooo helpful.. If by helpful I mean you lied a lot and were mistaken a bunch of times and reached a lot also... yeah... Really helpful...

post 351:

The list is basically the entire last page. You responded to most of what I said, but you didn't really provide explanations for any of them. You would quote a bunch of sentences and respond to maybe one, and none of the reasons I saw convinced me of you not being scum. In fact, most of the points (the ones I specifically listed 1-5) you basically conceded to me (1, 4, 5 specifically, your defense for 5 set up your cop claim because you were starting to realize you'd been caught). If you want to backtrack some more and change some of your responses, go right ahead.

Um... so instead of giving me actual reasons... you say "My list is the last page" where every reason you gave was BS.. ok so your case on me is BS... I got that.. as for your points.. I think I covered them here... so.. Yeah... Done with this quote...

Wait no I'm not... I always hate when someone says "IF you want to backtrack and change your stuff go ahead!" Because then if the person ever does change his stuff the guys can claim things like "See I told you he was going to do that" or whatever kind of attack you can think to make from that. So I find you setting that up a bit scummy. So far I have no real case on you other then my investigation... But I guess every little bit helps right...

Post 359:

Sorry guys, I've been swamped with school and work. I'm going to do one huge reread tonight (in addition to the other 800 things I need to read) and I'll hopefully have a post for you. I'll try to stay on here over the next few days to see how the deadline plays out.

Second post of the day... Nice... [/sarcasm]

Post 360:

Korlash is claiming a cop? I am fairly sceptical about this claim... Korlash, WHY did you investigate jmar if you are indeed the cop?

He hammered, I had major suspicions of him yesterday, I decided against Mith, etc...I have more or less explained them before in this post...

Post 362:

@Sir Torn: This is where his unwillingness to take a stance on anybody yesterday comes into play. He set himself up perfectly for a cop claim today. He could theoretically have investigated anybody last night because he didn't really definitively have a suspect yesterday.

That is one way to look at it.. I already said my reason for not voting... It all comes down to which side you believe...

Post 366;

You're missing the part where that's something easy to lie about, while my reasons are foolproof- you can check the thread if you don't believe me.

*laughing*

... ohh... Man i am funny sometimes.. "there is at least one fool... " Classic...

because in everyone else's eyes, there's still a good chance you're scum

You can't speak for everyone else.. However, this should be the case anyways. As either you or I am scum. I guess it comes down to who seems scummier.. You or me... *Psst... It's you BTW...*


Post 374:

You're the one who flipped out and started dropping f-bombs, then claimed cop.

F-Bomb actually.. One time.. And for the record I at least "*" it didn't I? I know it is still a moot point but i do try to keep vulgarity off this site...

You seem to be pushing at one of the only small pieces of real evidence of any kind you have. Even thought, personally, I think bad language can come from both town and scum equally.

That is about it for now... I hope I get this up before something bad happens... anyways I leave it in your guy's hands now. Take a look at this, see if his case still holds weight. If so, I guess I did my job poorly. And I guess it will be my fault we lost.

I know I am asking you guys to trust me a bit here... Btu that is what we need to do... We are a team. There is a small bit of trust we have to extend to each other. So you have to choose between trusting me and trusting Jmar... Good luck guys! Like I said.. been a great game so far... <3

[Korlash]

Now that lionden and Sir Torn both posted they were slightly leaning toward me, you go back to reevaluate my cases, even though you've had three days to do so. I'm sorry, but I think your scumminess has been blatantly obvious when it comes to things like this. Then again, I guess I'm biased since you've confirmed that you're scum to me.

Yeah, I am not going to sit back and lose because your too much of a dick to reevaluate your case.. sorry... After all that I am fed up with his BS right now... I apologize for the rude comment but I am not in the mood right now...

Well, I feel that I brought the case against you first after I reread. In my head, I was about ready to vote for you. But you did indeed make the first vote. In terms of "move" I was talking about coming out and accusing someone of something scummy, but yes, you did place the first vote.

This all comes down to your opinion of the first "accusation" as I feel my post 300 is first. Yet you can also argue 299, or that the actual arguments began later. I think it all becomes a moot point though. Sorry I brought it up...

Because you HAVE done that. Multiple times. I think it's a good point to bring up, because it's TRUE. Novel idea, huh?

I only quote and talk about things I feel are worth my time. If I missed something, or left it out I felt it was either pointless or I could actually say nothing about it. I don;t meant to 'ignore' anything but sometimes I fear that is how it appears. I believe I did an ok job in my last post of not doing that though.

I just think the attack "You are ignoring this this and this" is kinda pointless becuase NO ONE ever quotes EVERY SINGLE THING in an entire thread... only what they feel is quotable.

What? The deadline was 4 days away! And we had been arguing for 1, 1.5 at most. And there you go again with the noble BS.

True.. but neither Havok nor Sir Torn had posted more then Three times sense day two began.. so... Yeah.. I had my fears of the deadline coming and going... And if your saying you didn't then I think that only proves you are scum.

As for my noble BS, I guess it is a bit over the top eh? But i like that I found a scum. I actually feel I did something instead of my normal BS joke posts all game. But I will stop because it is only clutter right now I suppose.

Is it my only saving grace? Who's the one whose going back to revise his answers now that the deadline's upon us? I think it's your only saving grace at this point. Yeah, I do keep coming back to that because I believe it to be true. I'm not gonna plant your quotes into your lap and give you a chance to revise them, because I know you're scum, and nothing you can say is gonna convince me otherwise. Your answers have been there for three days now if you wanted to revise them, but you're only going to them now that the deadline is upon us. If anybody has any doubt as to what I'm talking about, look at the page. He'd skip some of my points, address only part of it, answer on of my paragraphs with one sentence, and oftentimes conceded points to me. And if you're wondering why "my partner" hasn't "spoken up" or counterclaimed, it's because I don't have one.

Ok then we both have an issue with the other. I won;t reread because i think the attacker should be the one who has to sum up his case, while you are just plain lazy and know your cases are all BS... I guess I am happy with the outcome. If people still believe you it is no longer because I didn't try.

You've been using the deadline as a crutch for scummy behavior since the first one was placed on it. Get a new defense.

... Believe me or don't... I really do become a different player when a Deadline comes.. And seeing as how we lose come this deadline and the amount of inactivity we have.. I feel I did the right thing.

Ok I now feel I have addressed EVERYTHING I need to/ am able to stand right now... So I hope I have been able to show you I am right. If not, I am sorry guys X.X I failed you...

[Korlash]

Agreed. Reading it I'm thinking I must have been drunk?

ha ha ha ha ha...


Ahhh... Drunk... That explains a lot XP

seriously though... I think I got TOO aggressive.. need to work on that... Think I became too much like Ryan or someone... man.. I need a better example i think...

Anyways GG and stuff... sorry for getting you killed Jmar, sorry Holy had to die T_T and sorry I was partners with the evil Sir Tornado! it was all his idea... He made me do it! He kidnapped my kitty! T_T

[Korlash]

In a tie the first person to two votes dies I believe.. oh wait... No come deadline perhaps we just no lynch... hmmm... either way we woulda won eh?

But yeah I will remember to vote more in future games. I was worried my self vote would be used against me as a cop...

Anyways... Catch you all in future games I hope... Kill ya later ;P