Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[Tamuz]

vote: Rossocarnescum

[Tamuz]

why do I have 2 votes?

[Tamuz]

Hey Mr. Aggressive. I wasn't saying that I have two votes on me, I was saying that I have the power of 2 votes. Hence the "Why do I have two votes?"

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but there is a little 2 by RC's vote count, but only one person there. I think it would be good to establish why I have that little power, or if its a mod mistake.

So how about you get your head out of your arse and stop spinning my words. My fact are right, the only potential is that my eyes are wrong.

[Tamuz]

vote:Earwig

Scum

Rosso, don't try to emulate AniX...

[Tamuz]

I'm happy.

[Tamuz]

Does anyone feel that the FoS count is significant?

Earwig, I'm happy because you are scum and my vote is on you. berry is suspect though.

Might I recommend reading Rule 6a again? - Tar

[Tamuz]

Thats dumb johohoo

Unless a mod specifically tells me to read their rules carefully because they are special, I don't. I've played enough games that I expect a standard.

[Tamuz]

Only if you're Battousi

[Tamuz]

Vote: Tamuz

for not responding, and for not explaining.

Delayed OMGUS, interesting.

[Tamuz]

OK Johoho's post is very scummy, I agree there.

To everything pointed at me... I present my suspicion of Earwig.(numbers are relative to his post #)

2 of 3 first posts focus on Ectomancer, belittling any suspicion to Ecto. ACTIVE defense of another person D1 is more often a scumtell than a masontell/coptell.
4: Calls Sly on Lurking, when he clearly isn't. (& others... its way to early to start trying to pull people as lurkers yet)
Wifoms the Ecto.
Draws attention to number of votes. Cautious-scumtell.
5. Pretends he has a grand plan. True or false, this is a scumtell to me.
6. Defends himself by saying he was trying to stir things up... Things were moving decently enough gambits of that sort don't benefit the town if its not stagnant.
9. Votes me in what I consider OMGUS. He strawmans reasons, but reading between the lines I see.

vote: Tamuz because he is voting me

[Tamuz]

Would it help if I told you you were wrong ROTN?

[Tamuz]

I like your logic.

[Tamuz]

My vote stays on Tamuz for a weak defense of a vote, where he has to stretch the truth, trying to resemble a valid defense.

Nice specific response Earwig.

[Tamuz]

unvote: Earwig
vote?: johoohno

[/shame]

[Tamuz]

Probably, but mind you, I said I thought Johoohno was scummy before you even posted.
And I know I'm innocent.

More reasoning would be nice, but I'm not reading too closely day one. Why? Well the last two games I've played I was pretty snappy on reasoning and such D1, and I got targeted/killed N1. Yes the town won both games, yes I played my role, but living'd be fun. Why go all hard core anal-retentive on anything yet? Its just not my mini-style.

[Tamuz]

@ RangeroftheNorth:

1.

Scummy not reading posts and rules?

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that it is especially important for townies to read other players posts thoroughly to find gaps in logic and reasoning in order to find scum - I, for instance try to take notes during the game, and I believe other to do that as well. If you are scum you can perhaps get away without taking notes. Then when you find a person that you want to throw suspicion on you can just go back and find appropriate quotes and put them together in a way that fits your plan. I don't say that as a way how all scum play, but it surely is one way. I believe that those mentioned did just that. (I would like to get some comments on this, am I on the right track or in the blue.)

I think thats a dangerous meta for multiple reasons
1. Provable?
2. Detectable?
3. You can't case study how others play, and nobody will let you see their stack of notes in a game you both are in EXCEPT scum(buddies)
4. I doubt many scum play that way.

[Tamuz]

True Ecto....

I probably should have said... "I don't play that way when I'm scum"

[Tamuz]

Alluding to Macbeth is a sure scum tell.

[Tamuz]

Agreed, ROTN. ryan's so off his normal track in this game I'm tempted to think he might be a bad guy.

FOS: ryan

My normal track?

Apparently you have quite a reputation. In a game I played recently, my posting style was compared to yours. Paraphrasing what Korlash said, "You post just like Ryan, and oh how I hate Ryan."

Keep up the good work. Anyone that Korlash hates can't be all bad!!

TRANSLATION: "I am SlySly, mafia partner of ryan.

"

[Tamuz]

hmmm... How happy would I be if Rosso gets lynched?

Not very

Care to Repost your voting reasons with relation to current events Nyktorion & Jester?

[Tamuz]

You're hiding a lie because you already had 3 votes on you...?

[Tamuz]

Part of me thinks Sly is probably bussing.

[Tamuz]

Jester + Mountainous=contradiction much?

[Tamuz]

if Blackberry were active he would have jumped on my wagon too.

Thats a fallacy.

[Tamuz]

if Blackberry were active he would have jumped on my wagon too.

Thats a fallacy.

It's an assumption. As is yours.

Meh, I feel its more a misrepresentation. He is demonizing BB without real evidence. I'd suppose you could say its based on assumption, but the assertion itself is not an assumption.

[Tamuz]

Are you just trying to stir the pot jester? Or are you trying to get voted?

[Tamuz]

Basing his entire case on ryan on an inconclusive meta.

[Tamuz]

Uhh... thats not my point. My point is that he is attacking ryan based on an inconclusive meta. That and his attack is very subjective.
To PARAPHRASE since I know you need me be explicit when I'm paraphrasing as opposed to quoting SlySly, Joker is saying that he feels ryan is acting differently than he has before in games when ryan was town. Therefore the only conclusion Joker can come up with is that ryan is scum. This is incorrect on multiple levels. There are more options to conclude to even if we were to take Joker's flimsy meta by face value, which I don't think we can.

Its not his vehemence that is off to me, but the argument itself.

[Tamuz]

Ryan was banned...

I'm still too hazy this morning to explain why, but I feel this undercuts Joker.

[Tamuz]

...

[Tamuz]

I'm saying that his meta on ryan seems kinda stupid to me after seeing the kind of tool ryan has been both as scum and town.

[Tamuz]

Ryan got banned for modquoting his PM thrice.

It shows his behavior is flippant and metaing him is pretty futile.

[Tamuz]

Johoohno has three votes. Battousai now has a vote on him.

Actually, that error occured because I added Battousai's vote to the FoS Count instead of the Vote Count. This error has been...

dealt with

. -Tar

[Tamuz]

Johoohno can you defend your vote?

[Tamuz]

As 'honest' as you think it could sound ecto... it still sounds scummier than high hell.

Its a blatant statement that TNE is fingerpointing and not using logic for his cases.

[Tamuz]

I didn't, and don't feel like there is a justifiable case on RC at that point/now. Plus, my meta on RC says...

will most likely be a douche day one, but if town will noticeably pull his head out of his ass and start playing D2. Note, but don't vote

[Tamuz]

Tamuz:

• Tamuz (and Dean Harper) was the first ones to post (4) only minutes after the mod started the game. That MIGHT be an indication that mafia had talked things through and sent in their confirmations waiting for the game to start. (I know it would be more valid if I also saw Dean Harper/RangeroftheNorth as a possible scum partner, which I don’t at the moment.)
• Seems to post only to appear active (post 84, 120 and 325) and sometimes it’s just about wordings (288).
• As I’ve said before he also wonders about the FoS-counts (post 94 which I talked about in post 202).
• In post 191 RangeroftheNorth votes for me and Tamuz quickly shifts to me too (post 193 and 197) perhaps seeing me as a wagon that’ll build up quickly.
• Post 199 is a fishy post where he tries to give himself airs to avoid reading the game closely and focus on staying alive. Someone else has already said this, the point is not, for an individual townie, to stay alive (unless that would benefit the town).
• He is also against a Rosso Carne lynch 249 and asks for Nyktorion and Jester’s reason for said lynch. Here I see two possible things. Perhaps he wants to lift up this issue once more with the help of two, at that time, very townish players to come to a lynch (seeing their reasons and then agreeing with them). It could also be that they are scum pairs (Rosso and Tamuz). In this game a lot of people have connected players with one another and perhaps Tamuz feels that this one will only be one among many and won’t be picked up. The last point is in that case even more shadowed by adding more bussing issues in the thread in post 266.
• (* This last entry is only for conspiratorial fun Tamuz mentioned Battousai in post 120. He is also the one who informs the game of ryan’s ban 321. Lo’ and behold, enter Battousai 324.)


All in all, I have moved down Tamuz from first to second position, and that leads me to...

Okay... so what in there really makes me scummy.

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in. And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake.

Anyway, beyond your grassy knoll, I don't see how any of your points make me scummy let alone the second scummiest.
Lets rephrase:
1. Horrible

time based meta

with someone who you think isn't scum with me.
2. Floppy point with subjective wording

"seems"

3. Not reading the rules. OMG that makes me scum!
4. Agreeing with reasonable rhetoric and applying pressure. (this one I'll give you, it can seem scummy) BUT you add motive of "perhaps seeing me as a wagon that'll build up quickly. Psshhhhhh if you go that far out of your way to dish motives onto me to call me scum, I call this point weak at worst. On top of that you say "Perhaps", you aren't even sure of yourself to call me out. None of this weak language. Just say it if you think its the truth. "I think Tamuz is doing this because he want to build a quick wagon on me". Scum use weak words like Seems and Perhaps. You are scum. I am voting for you.
5. See frustration from Battousai SlySly game. And I know that me staying alive would be cool. I know my role, I know my win condition is to get rid of dem rascal mafiates. I don't know anyone elses. And in a MM game where powerroles are minute at best who is there to sacrifice myself for as a target? Another vanilla? Hell yeah I want to stay alive
6. I don't even understand this point. HOW does this make me scummy. I ask people to qualify themselves in a point where the game was stagnating. And personally Jester is not Townish to me. The second half of your point 6 is a dead ramble.

Soo.... wanna spew less formatted and '''''''''''documented'''''''''' crap and actually make real points and say something.


PERHAPS it MIGHT SEEM that you weren't scum then?

[Tamuz]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in.

And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake

.

WtF, kill an unknown, take the chance of killing a pro-town power role, vanilla townie, or scum. It's like an additional lynch, but with only past game as evidence and with out me defending myself. I do find this stupid, and suspicious. Since I see no way you will be lynched today, I will feel comfortable giving you a

FOS: Tamuz

Battousai, honestly, having seen your play I believe scum have a better chance to win it for the town in an endgame than you as town. I told myself I wouldn't sign up for a game with your in it. But I made an agreement to Tar when I signed for this game, and picking you up as a replacement is not his fault. I'm not going to burden him with replacing another person because he had the unfortunate lluck of grabbing you as a replacement.

And I'd like to cite Pie's "kill-every-night-as-a-vig*" argument:

-Kill pretty much every night. If you ever submit No Kill, it should be very close to lynch-or-lose and/or you should have a very compelling tactical reason to do so.

-The above rule also applies to night zero. Always use your kill the first night.

Think of it this way: You NoKilling is pretty much the same as the town NoLynching. It's almost always stupid, and when it's the right move there are some pretty damn rare circumstances making that happen. I've posted stuff about this before (including in the other vig thread), but even a vig killing randomly is good for the town - even if you have no idea, kill anyways. Your vigkill is a lynch decided by exclusively protown members. Use it pretty much always. Not killing night zero because it's a crapshoot is like the town not lynching day one because it's a crapshoot as well.

Vigging night zero is always the correct play in a closed setup, and almost always the correct play in an open setup. Here's why:

Point: On night zero, it is rational to assume that the game is balanced. This one is pretty obvious.

Hypothetical Scenario: One day, the mod wakes up and is really pissed off, so he decides to kill someone from the game at random.

Point: If the game is balanced, then introduction of this "random kill" has an expected return of zero for both town and scum. That is, the odds of town winning are the same with no random kill at all and after the random kill has been introduced (but before it has been executed).

Conclusion: On Night Zero, a random kill would not help or hurt the town.

Realer Scenario: You are a vig. Do you kill night zero?

Point: A vig's night zero kill is exactly like a random kill, except that it can't hit the vig himself. So a vig night zero is like a random kill that will miss one of the town's strongest power roles guarenteed.

Obvious Conclusion A: So a vig killing night zero is better for the town than a random kill

Obvious Conclusion B: So vigges should always kill night zero.

Stupid Person, IN THE FUTURE wrote:
But a random kill is more likely to hit town than scum

Yes, but since a scum is more valuable to his team than a townie is it counterbalances. Go learn expected return.

This is irrelevant because I am NOT a vig, I'm simply mentioning if I was, thats were I'd use it.

It would NOT be solely done for my own ends. I would either be getting rid of a hard to spot scum--on grounds of impossible to differentiate town play-- or a detrimentally bad townie.

[Tamuz]

How bout you read and respond to 423 and your '''case'''.


Ecto. so your saying that now that my bias is open, I immediately become a worse player?

[Tamuz]

Yes, and I feel you are making a poor analogy, I'll explain later.

[Tamuz]

Firstly I want to point out how distressing it is that my post is being ignored for the strawman concept of the conspiracy theory with Battousai/my meta on him.

Instead of looking at my post and saying either "he's right, Johohno, you have no case against your 2nd scummiest" or "Tamuz, you're wrong, Johohno's case is valid for X,Y and Z" You strawman another point and ignore that which is relevant to the game.

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B

for the good of the town

because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame. Note For the town. My actions would be motivated by my win condition. Town. Win. You then have the gall to insinuate that I would attack B for a vendetta. This is just plain wrong. I act in accordance to my win condition, for the town to win. Nothing I have said is against that. (and on top of that most of this is based on a conditional that I have stated will not come to be).

I don't see how you have the impudence to say my bias makes me a bad player. In fact I don't see how you say bias. What you are doing is changing the rhetoric of the idea of a meta on a player to make me sound bad. Again, my argument on Battousai doesn't apply to me because I actual do try to obtain my win condition in a way applicable to my role. Not implying vanilla, then admitting vanilla then falseclaiming cop as a vanilla, then unclaiming cop, then claiming doc, then claiming vanilla and then going back to doc. Thats not trying to win.
You argument fails whether its because you don't understand something or you just want to paint me poorly I don't know.

Regardless wanna drop this and actually comment on Johohno's shite case (or the opposite if you feel it is so) rather than talking about dadaism.

[Tamuz]

Reading comprehension is a must!

And lord knows that if I was a

vig

I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake.

'm saying I would

vig

B for the good of the town

Dont lie to me. You said you have a meta problem with him, and that you would lynch him "for the good of the town". You indicate that would be regardless of alignment. We don't win by lynching town. You dont exactly inspire confidence by your continued pursuit of "permission" to lynch a townie. I dont care how he plays if he is town. He still counts towards a majority by being in game, and THAT should be your concern, NOT screwing us around trying to lynch a town member because "he would be detrimental in end game".

1. You don't leave this moot and stupid point. Chasing it to attack me is scummy
2. You either suck at reading or again you are painting me incorrectly. I said vig, in an IF scenario. You repeat LYNCH. Again, Scummy. When have I said "lets lynch B or even attack him?
3. So we disagree on whats good for the town. I prefer to have quality plays who play like town when they are town, not scum when they are town. I prefer players who have a hope of winning the game. Buffalo theory, kill off the weak, make everyone stronger. I wrote more response, but then I felt dumb because it concerned lynching, and I haven't advocated a B lynch.
4. If you say you don't care about how he plays as town, you're lying. You better as hell care about how your fellow townies play as town. If your scum you shouldn't really care about how townies play. But part of being a good townie is being PREDICTABLE in your PRO-TOWN ACTIONS. If a townie doesn't act like this it is safe to begin thinking that they are SCUM


You are blowing this up to serve as a basis to attack me. I haven't said "lets lynch B" or even "I'm killing B tonight". I explained a conspiracy theory by Johohno and you mountain-out-of-a-molehilled it.

And even still you continue strawmanning this and ignoring anything else I say, so I'll repost it in big fucking red letters.

Firstly I want to point out how distressing it is that my post is being ignored for the strawman concept of the conspiracy theory with Battousai/my meta on him.

Instead of looking at my post and saying either "he's right, Johohno, you have no case against your 2nd scummiest" or "Tamuz, you're wrong, Johohno's case is valid for X,Y and Z" You strawman another point and ignore that which is relevant to the game.

[Tamuz]

Don't admit that you were WRONG. You took what I said and used completely different words that mean absolutely different words and then made that into a reason to attack me.

Lynches and vigs are completely different don't even TRY to equivocate them. I have power in a lynch, I don't in a vig.

You still have yet to bring up any evidence of me asking or trying to convince any other member of the town to attack or kill Battousai.


AND YOU CONTINUE TO FUCKING IGNORE ANYTHING I SAY IN TERMS OF JOHOOHNO. GET OFF YOUR LAZY SPITEFUL FUCKING ASS AND AT LEAST APPLY YOURSELF TO THE GAME NOT THIS PISS THAT YOU HAVE NOW BROUGHT ABOUT TOWARDS ME.

You continue strawmanning away, keep doing this and someone might get the idea that you're defending Johohno

Your anecdote fails because its syntax is so broken I can't understand it




You'll feel quite a tool at the end of this. This should be a good game for you to reread and go "wow, my play sucks balls"


I think both of us should stop talking and others should actually discuss the game, not this stupidity that you continue coming back to (and thus I have to defend myself as my townily duty) because we are cluttering up any scumsearching.


BTW Earwig, your post is shit, I do note that you aren't doing anything real.

[Tamuz]

Tar... I think you may want to look for a replacement. I'm sorry, but regardless of anything, this game will not be fun for me with the current status.

[Tamuz]

Sly, stop. If you've even read anything I've played I don't just quit when I get attacked. This is different.

Ecto, you can shut the fuck up you hypocritical tool.

Poor analogy or not, you should try to play this game objectively. If you cannot, I really would prefer you replaced out.

I can, but it is no longer allowed for me to be able to. This game is now corrupt with me in it.

[Tamuz]

Sly. The honest answer right now, is I don't want to play with ectomancer. I mean the battousai coming in I was going to live with. But I don't need to play in a game I already don't want to when I'm being more than harassed for non-game matters by another player in it.

Tarh has picked up my PM. That is all