Mini 546: House Mafia - Game Over

[TrustGossip]

I still think that both scum are in team LU.

Er... I thought there were three...?

@ Erg0: I don't know if this is playstyle issue or what, but I'd rather you weigh in on your suspicions of people instead of directing a question at someone who is unlikely to answer anyway.

[vollkan]

Thats a combination of posts 298-300. Also at the tail end of your post before this it starts as well. And the fact it was a triple post implies the posts were extremely hasty, implying an extremely aggressive reaction.

Over reaction is scummy as it implies you have a lot more on the line with the lynch, which a scum would (especially in a nightless game, losing 1 of 2 or 3 members is a much bigger blow than losing one of 7 or 8). It also implies that you are being a lot more wary of single votes on you, which is scummy for the same reasons.

OBJECTION!

I love the syllogistic thinking

Triple posting is aggressive over-reaction
Aggressive over-reaction is scummy
Triple posting is scummy

I dispute the first line entirely, and I dispute the reliability of the second line. The third line, then, is just ridiculous.

There's one other reason I can think of for overreactions, and it's that you are a completely incompetent newbie. You offered to do a PbP, so that is blown out of the water.

Have you meta'd CKD? Is he normally calm, cool and collected?

Also, it's not even just the triple posts. Did you read what you said in those? It doesn't even make sense, you use the word bull shit actual infi times.

It makes sense to me. Sure, it isn't exactly eloquent, but it is still intelligible.

I also fail to see why the use of "bull shit" is relevant. Mentally change it to "falderal" or "rot" if you must, but it doesn't mean anything/

You claim that voting on a hunch isn't scummy b/c you told use you were doing it. Because honesty makes everything better.

I agree with you here; hunch voting is bad. Admitting it makes no difference, because the problem in hunch play is that it makes an unchallengeable statement.

Dear god, if that wasn't an over reaction I would love to see what is.

te on why CKD's #360 was an over-reaction?

Double posting on its own isn't over reacting, however in that situation it clearly was.

"Clearly was"? Prove it.

FoS: armlx

[TrustGossip]

I have been lynched so many times on silly scum driven accusations of overreacting it is not even funny.

Maybe it would help if you didn't play into their hands with your histrionics. In addition, said behavior hinders town because it's out of the ordinary and would detract from finding scum.

that is all you gathered from our conversation....try taking a stance...is overreacting scummy? was I overreacting? am I scummy?

Like I have said before, my vote on you was meant to draw out some sort of response. Your response was more vigorous than I anticipated. I find this as distracting and maybe scummy.

curious, I may be off the mark in suspecting you, but just for future reference, overly emotional play tends to be bad for town. In addition, we already have in our game and example when posting in haste was seen as scummy (Pooky v. shaft.ed).

In the interests of expanding our knowledge (and giving you an opportunity to stop being on the defensive), who do you find scummy on your

own

team and why?

[TrustGossip]

Thats a combination of posts 298-300. Also at the tail end of your post before this it starts as well. And the fact it was a triple post implies the posts were extremely hasty, implying an extremely aggressive reaction.

Over reaction is scummy as it implies you have a lot more on the line with the lynch, which a scum would (especially in a nightless game, losing 1 of 2 or 3 members is a much bigger blow than losing one of 7 or 8). It also implies that you are being a lot more wary of single votes on you, which is scummy for the same reasons.

OBJECTION!

I love the syllogistic thinking

Triple posting is aggressive over-reaction
Aggressive over-reaction is scummy
Triple posting is scummy

I dispute the first line entirely, and I dispute the reliability of the second line. The third line, then, is just ridiculous.

There's one other reason I can think of for overreactions, and it's that you are a completely incompetent newbie. You offered to do a PbP, so that is blown out of the water.

Have you meta'd CKD? Is he normally calm, cool and collected?

Also, it's not even just the triple posts. Did you read what you said in those? It doesn't even make sense, you use the word bull shit actual infi times.

It makes sense to me. Sure, it isn't exactly eloquent, but it is still intelligible.

I also fail to see why the use of "bull shit" is relevant. Mentally change it to "falderal" or "rot" if you must, but it doesn't mean anything/

You claim that voting on a hunch isn't scummy b/c you told use you were doing it. Because honesty makes everything better.

I agree with you here; hunch voting is bad. Admitting it makes no difference, because the problem in hunch play is that it makes an unchallengeable statement.

Dear god, if that wasn't an over reaction I would love to see what is.

te on why CKD's #360 was an over-reaction?

Double posting on its own isn't over reacting, however in that situation it clearly was.

"Clearly was"? Prove it.

FoS: armlx

Were you so excited by your indictment of armix that you couldn't get your quote tags right?

[TrustGossip]

^ Lol this hilarious, I am apparently eating my own foot.

[vollkan]

So...this means that you were so excited by your belief that I was excited by my indictment of armlx because I couldn't get my quote tags right that you couldn't get your quote tags right?

^ Lol this hilarious, I am apparently eating my own foot.

And most of the leg.

[Erg0]

I still think that both scum are in team LU.

Er... I thought there were three...?

@ Erg0: I don't know if this is playstyle issue or what, but I'd rather you weigh in on your suspicions of people instead of directing a question at someone who is unlikely to answer anyway.

Yeah, I'm working on it - this is me trying to work my way back into the game gradually. In general terms, I think we're choosing between shaft.ed, Jive and (maybe) ckd for today, since Adel and vollkan are contributing too strongly to be real candidates for a day 1 lynch.

shaft.ed has been somewhat up and down, as there have been a few of his posts that I've really disliked. An example is post 266, which contains fairly thin reasons to suspect every member of the other team, and reads to me like he's trying to be active while still keeping his options open). He's also done some good stuff, and I need to reread him in more detail before I make a final decision.

TheJiveMachine is a somewhat different animal, as he has clearly done some scummy things (e.g. twice FoSing and then switching to a vote after pressure was applied), but the question is really whether he is newbtown or newbscum. He may be worth keeping alive if he's likely to be replaced for inactivity at some point, but at the moment I'd be willing to take a risk and lynch him for both scumminess and probable noise factor.

curiouskarmadog... hmm. Opinion pending.

[armlx]

Vollkan:

The use of profanity is very relevant, as typically it implies a much higher level of aggitation. Same with triple posting, which again implies aggitation to the point you can't properly form your ideas (CKD's triple post was all within about 10 minutes of each other).

As for metaing CKD, no I have not. I really have no response to that other than to say I don't typically meta on usual scum tells unless I've seen that person act that way in many games I have been in or they are a new player making standard newbie mistakes as doing so tend to promote bad behavior and let people slide by far too often as well as making standard scum hunting procedures a lot harder.

[curiouskarmadog]

Messing up quotes tag demonstrates a frame of mind of someone who is too excited to reread and preview their post before posting to make sure that it is in the correct format. Much like someone who forgot to get all of their points into one (or even two posts) this is scummy. What are you so excited about TG?

Obviously I am joking here.

Today is the end of the month so I am busy typing reports. I will attempt (no promises) to do a PbP on “my” team today as it is pretty obvious who on “your” team I think is scum. I am actually to the point of not giving a shit if you guys hang me today or not. If you hang me because armix based his vote on a triple post and the usage of the term “bullshit” then you deserve what you get. Overreaction = scummy is ridiculous and if you did a meta on me, you would see that in most of my games I play with my heart on my sleeve because I have got nothing to hide. Armix keeps saying it his bad town play…so is it a good scum play then? Are you voting me because you think I am scum or because I “overreacted” which you label has a bad town play. I feel like this situation is great for the town at this point. It has spawned conversation and shows you really are pushing a vote based on absolutely nothing. Why? If I am playing badly as town by distracting from true scum hunting, why are you focusing on me and not truly scum hunting. You are already padding your defense tomorrow “well he was playing badly as town so we are really that much better off”. We are here to find and lynch scum armix, not people you label as “bad” townies.

[Claus]

Vote Count

Team LU

Armlx 2 - Karma, Adel

Not voting:

Jive, Volkan, Shafted

Team NLU

TheJiveMachine 1 - TG

Not voting:

Erg0, DH, Pooky, Armix

3 to lynch.

Pooky, Jive and DH were prodded.

[TrustGossip]

I feel like this situation is great for the town at this point. It has spawned conversation and shows you really are pushing a vote based on absolutely nothing.

Good posting.

Yes, I wouldn't mind Armix going, but I would really want fresh replacements for Dean and Jive.

I'm still a little annoyed that all Erg0 deigns to provide for us is a question for Jive. You've been gone quite a while and you really think that question is the best to ask in order to help us at the moment?

Weak.

I would also like Adel to post a more substantial weigh-in of the current situation(s).

[armlx]

Messing up quotes tag demonstrates a frame of mind of someone who is too excited to reread and preview their post before posting to make sure that it is in the correct format. Much like someone who forgot to get all of their points into one (or even two posts) this is scummy. What are you so excited about TG?

Obviously I am joking here.

Today is the end of the month so I am busy typing reports. I will attempt (no promises) to do a PbP on “my” team today as it is pretty obvious who on “your” team I think is scum. I am actually to the point of not giving a shit if you guys hang me today or not. If you hang me because armix based his vote on a triple post and the usage of the term “bullshit” then you deserve what you get. Overreaction = scummy is ridiculous and if you did a meta on me, you would see that in most of my games I play with my heart on my sleeve because I have got nothing to hide. Armix keeps saying it his bad town play…so is it a good scum play then? Are you voting me because you think I am scum or because I “overreacted” which you label has a bad town play. I feel like this situation is great for the town at this point. It has spawned conversation and shows you really are pushing a vote based on absolutely nothing. Why? If I am playing badly as town by distracting from true scum hunting, why are you focusing on me and not truly scum hunting. You are already padding your defense tomorrow “well he was playing badly as town so we are really that much better off”. We are here to find and lynch scum armix, not people you label as “bad” townies.

You just completely sluff off my point. Please reread my points.

Scum are much more invested in their role due to the their limited numbers and such view small vote counts as much larger threats to their team, prompting over reacting a lot of the time.

It's bad scum play too. Thats why it's a tell. It just happens to be a bad town play because it's 90% of the time a bad scum play.

Also note the fact I have yet to vote for you, though as soon as an absolute deadline is posted I will. There's no need to rush a lynch when there's still lots of time to discuss.

[vollkan]

Scum are much more invested in their role due to the their limited numbers and such view small vote counts as much larger threats to their team, prompting over reacting a lot of the time.

It's bad scum play too. Thats why it's a tell. It just happens to be a bad town play because it's 90% of the time a bad scum play.

And reaction implies what?

Town can get anxious and cranky. Scum can get anxious and cranky.

It's possible that scum might be more liable to get cranky due to higher stakes. It's also possible that scum might be less liable to get cranky due to higher stakes, because they'll try harder to remain calm.

Since you've given no evidence other than the conjecture that "Scum are much more invested in their role", my counter-conjecture just shot down your argument in flames.

Oh, and on what basis do you say it's bad scum play 90% of the time?

[TrustGossip]

Don't you know? 86% of statistics on the internet are completely made up!

[TrustGossip]

@ Erg0, sorry, I did not see Post 381.

[shaft.ed]

OK, I've been a bit more busy than expected as of late. I'm pretty much up to snuff on what's been going on and hoping to get my promised armlx post up later today. In sum, I agree with most that his 'case' against CKD is almost laughable. I also find it odd that he'd put so much effort and thrust into it but state pretty wishy-washy like:

Also note the fact I have yet to vote for you, though as soon as an absolute deadline is posted I will.

CKD has no votes on him, registering yours really won't lead to much danger.

Not liking pooky dropping off of the map once armlx suspicion is obviously rising. Possibly trying to lie low until NLU picks a lynch candidate.

Also TG's conflicion in regards to TJM is noted:

I would really want fresh replacements for Dean and Jive.

TheJiveMachine 1 - TG

Crub is it too soon to request a Dean replacement?

[TrustGossip]

My vote isn't any threat on Jive. I wanted to give curious some breathing room and would rather have my vote putting weight on

something

at least.

I don't see why it's notable or how it would be a source of bother to you.

[curiouskarmadog]

Have a moment so I will give some thoughts about my team.

TheJiveMachine, vollkan, Adel, and shafted.

TJM, not much content here. Mostly vote hopping and FoSes. When I mentioned a hunch, he was one of the first to jump on my case for not voting those acting “identifiably scummy”. Never really explained why he could be labeled scummy nor did he really address any questions or accusations thrown his way. His last post was stated he thought he had died and he needed to catch up…nothing yet. Reading his votes in isolation leads me to believe he is mostly likely scum and he knows that he screwed up.

Vollkan, I like vollkan. I have liked vollkan in every game that I have played with him. He is incredibly hard to read as scum because he provides good pro-town feedback and content, doesnt BW (that often), nor does he lurk. This game is no exception. That being said, I think he might be coming to my aid (defense) too much. Now he could be doing this because he sees armix’s weak ass case, because we are on the same “team”, or because he knows I am town and wants some town creds. On the fence about vollkan, but I find myself once again leaning town.

Adel, Ugh. The bizzaro vollkan. I find that she is hard to read because almost every game I have ever been with her she has drastically changed her playstyle and all the changes she looks scummy to me. This game is no exception. I didn’t like the link early on with armix where their voting habits changed together. Now I don’t think scum would act so openly coordinated, but who knows with Adel (side note: have you seen her dream bedroom?). Now that we have to voting one of the other team, she again pivots and changes up her style and is now voting armix. I don’t have clue what that means. On the fence about Adel, maybe leaning scum. Why no graph, Adel?

Shafted, good poster, good content. Appears to be scum hunting. Good vibes all around here.

Ok TG, your turn I know you have done a partial overview of everyone, but I am interested on what you think of your “team”.

[Adel]

Why no graph, Adel?

I'm tracking a few things, and I may present my finding if I see something conclusive in the data. It doesn't look too promising at this point.

[TrustGossip]

I am not going to post until prods are picked up / ignored -> replace.

Aseptic technique, don't stir the culture medium.

[Erg0]

Shafted, good poster, good content. Appears to be scum hunting. Good vibes all around here.

General question: how much does scum hunting count for if you don't agree with the reasoning and/or the conclusions?

I agree that shaft.ed has been actively poking, but there are a few posts where he's given cases that I've thought are somewhat weak (e.g. the one I mentioned above). Barring the blip where he got a little worked up over Pooky's pressure on him, I'm finding it a little difficult to get a handle on him right now.

[Erg0]

Post 2, the forgotten point: my hazy memory of ckd from a newbie game I modded has him being a little emotional at times. This goes back to the question of whether anger/overreaction is actually a scumtell, and in his case I'd say "not necessarily". Certainly not enough to use this tell reliably.

[curiouskarmadog]

Post 2, the forgotten point: my hazy memory of ckd from a newbie game I modded has him being a little emotional at times. This goes back to the question of whether anger/overreaction is actually a scumtell, and in his case I'd say "not necessarily". Certainly not enough to use this tell reliably.

that was the embarassing game that I got so pissed I self hammer at lylo as a townie, because there was no way I could have convince the remaining newbie that the scum was indeed scum...that armix, is an overreaction and that IS a bad town play.

interesting note, that was the game I decided to start voting more on my gut in the beginning.

[curiouskarmadog]

Shafted, good poster, good content. Appears to be scum hunting. Good vibes all around here.

General question: how much does scum hunting count for if you don't agree with the reasoning and/or the conclusions?

I agree that shaft.ed has been actively poking, but there are a few posts where he's given cases that I've thought are somewhat weak (e.g. the one I mentioned above). Barring the blip where he got a little worked up over Pooky's pressure on him, I'm finding it a little difficult to get a handle on him right now.

Actively scum hunting does count a lot for me, if I agree with the drawn conclusion and if the actions reflex the conclusions drawn.

general question for you: how do you define scum hunting?

[Erg0]

I guess I'd define it as stating suspicion of and/or actively pursuing individuals who you appear to genuinely believe are scum. By my definition, it basically amounts to "not lurking and not obviously faking it", which is why it's a point in a player's favour but not solid proof of innocence.