Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[Guardian]

Hey guys . I like, like, most of the people playing, and Oman, and daytalking = yaus, so here I am.

Will read in the next few days (or hours ).

[Guardian]

Okay, or minutes >_>.

I read pretty quickly, going to try and re-read in depth shortly. First thoughts:

Daytalking seems cool, and I think can be effective, but not to the extent that it detracts from the game. It seems to help scum more than town, town can use it in a couple of ways tho. Plan actions with someone you really think is town, pick someone's brain who might not want to reveal it publicly... If there is more than that, bring it up, we have no advantage here besides daytalking, so we want to use that. I feel that there hasn't been enough discussion about *how* to use daytalk.

For example, I don't see how interrogating someone privately is better than publicly, and many seem to have implied that. I once daytalked with scum (Yosarian2 ) over AIM, even, and I'm not sure how effective that was. I thought he was scum, but I thought so before and after the daytalk.

If anyone wants to daytalk with me, shoot me a PM and we can make a quickboard topic thing, and see where it goes -- I find them much easier to read than PM-chains. I haven't been on AIM a lot recently, and I'm not going to change that for this game. Post in thread is as important if not more than daytalk though :\.



About the players:

Adel, I'm really unsure about. Seriously "lynch my buddy" or whatever? I'm not sure how sparking discussion in that manner is pro-town. "Add a godfather and a cop"? Changing setup midgame just seems really really odd to me. I agree that we are in a tough spot (we have only 1 mislynch available to us, or we lose, and no powerroles), but chaning the setup midway seems unfair. Adel is crazy though (:.

I can see the case on kab. He hasn't explained his vote on vollkan particularly well, and doesn't seem to be reacting well to pressure. I'm not sure what is so bad about his lemmingness though, it doesn't seem to be a pattern for him, and doesn't seem particularly prevalent.

Phate, on the other hand, has been a lemming also, and hasn't attracted much if any attention for it. He has also been more of a lemming. Those two combined make me suspicious.

vote: Phate

. He also has kinda been lurkerish.

Adel and Phate would prob. be my top 2 atm. I definitely want a concentrated re-read on Adel. I can understand the reasons for wagons on Adel and on kab, so there's nothing I can point to particularly as "X is trying to railroad townies --> scum".


Kab, can you summarize in one post your thoughts on vollkan? Who else are you suspicious of?

Adel, sup with NabNab?

I'll re-read more in depth at sometime, maybe now, maybe a few days, depends. I'm going to try and look at people's stances on xyzzy and scot, and look to see if there are any players who bear collaborating with.

Right now, I'm not sure who I'm interested in having private convo with. I I think I'll shoot a PM to kab but that's it at the moment.

[Guardian]

Vollkan, I don't even get a hi?

[Guardian]

Hm. I'm not sure I see how that makes sense.

It is true that 3/4 players will get to have a very beneficial relationship -- but that includes the 3 scum!

t-t
t-t
t-t
s-t
s-t
s-t

doesn't seem like a great deal at all, to me. it does to you?

It seems to make more sense to me to evaluate other player's play and then treat someone as pro-town when your analysis of their play is very pro-town. can you explain to me where I've gone wrong?

do you still find kab suspicious? What are we waiting for from nab nab?

[Guardian]

I want to hear jdodge's above question answered.

also

do you still find kab suspicious? What are we waiting for from nab nab?

As for the mason thing -- so you propose we all choose one way mason-ness? That makes a bit more sense maths wise, but then why would our chose mason communicate with us, if he didn't think we were town?

Can you speak to why you think that is better than selecting pro-town appearing players?

Aren't the chances using random now only 5/8 that we get good buddies? Aren't the odds only 5/8 that Nab is town?

[Guardian]

send a PM to phate and nabnab, for the record.

I see no reason that who is daytalking with whom shouldn't be a matter of public record.

Adel, you didn't really do a good job of responding to 335 in 336. Could you try again? Going through and quoting my posts, and responding to each part under the quoted portion would help.

I'd like to hear why NabNab finds vollkan suspicious.

[Guardian]

I don't like the kab wagon, due to talking to him.

I do like the vollkan wagon more, and no one wants to vote Phate, or comment.

unvote vote: vollkan

.

[Guardian]

Hm. I'm unsure, honestly. Before you ask: revealing why specifically I wouldn't want to reveal the reasons would be as good as revealing them.

My genreal reason is that revealing all daytalk as it happens basically gives away any advantage town might have in this game.

Mizzy, explain how I am being hypocritical. I think who is talking to who should be of record so if someone dies, the people they talked to could be asked to reveal what the conversation was about. Also, I wouldn't want someone I never PM'd to claim to have had extensive PMs with me if I died.

That doesn't mean we should reveal the contents of the talk as they happen.

I really need to get to re-reading this game; I agree with Nabby that tunnel vision is a problem; there is no need to be vollkan OR kab at this point, a slip I guess I fell into.

[Guardian]

I really understand/have sympathy with kabemnon's view of the game. I don't like the lynch -2 wagon on him at this point at all, and while not sure I agree, I can definitely see what he is seeing, about vollkan, Mizzy, and now Jdodge.

[Guardian]

Good unvote. The Kab wagon seems really misguided to me. Again, re-read needed. Maybe now...

[Guardian]

notes as I re-read day 1:

cic & jdodge not team. 12-17

jdodge votes xyzzy for pretty good reasons.
sir t follows with 2, explains well.

kab 3-wagons xyzzy without explaining..
62-64 looks like kab was thinking of claiming power??

disciple slayer (mizzy) even more shamelessly bandwagons xyzzy.

vollkan then votes xyzzy cuz of inactivity -- no indication he finds xyzzy scummy.

Adel -1's xyzzy with no explanation whatsoever.

kab unvotes cuz he doesn't want quick lynch. +points

vollkan unvotes, +points

xyz votes adel

mizy unvotes... little late? wagon got too stale?

mizzy and adel probably not scum together, mizy unvoted to make 3 votes on xyz and 2 on Adel.

I think from DS & Mizzy's actions, Mizzy is a good scum candidate.

DS's vote on xyz was pure, unfettered, wagoning, saying he agreed 100% with jdodge. Mizy then unvotes really late near deadline without voting anyone else, doesn't want to be on the townie lynch.

unvote

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

Kab can you explain 62-64?? How do I interpret it without thinking you were gonna claim power?

fos: Kab

unless adequate response there.

fos: Adel

. Seriously, Adel might not be a bad play today. she -1 wagon'd xyz, she claimed scum, she wanted the setup changed midroute, she's been (imo) over-representing her contact with nab nab...

Adel is about as scummy with Mizzy for me right now. Kab not at all far behind them. Who I vote depends on how Mizzy and Kab explain themselves. Not sure Adel can explain herself...

I think I was off on going after vollkan based on Adel & kab's logic.

gotta run, sorry if typos/unclear etc.

[Guardian]

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

I SAID why I unvoted. I spoke with 2 people via daytalk and between those conversations and another full re-read, I felt that the xyzzywagon was bullshit. There was no evidence of scum...

can you quote for me where you said all that explicitly?

, and no, I didn't want to be on a townie lynch because (funny that) lynching townies is anti-town.

Arguing about why I didn't want to be on the wagon lynch (both scum and town have equally valid reasons for not wanting to be on a townie lynch) is terribly WIFOM.

If you thought xyzzy lynch was BS, and you didn't want to lynch a townie (him), then why didn't you vote for someone else before deadline?

kab -- I didn't make the same mistake you did -- I realize there are no PRs. But your explanation makes sense.

Strolling back over day 1 -- Phate seems suspicious day1, too.

{Adel, Mizzy, Phate} are my targets right nwo.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Oman, Rule 10 is dumb. Quoting other players should be allowed, Mizzy should be able to quote anything she wants.

That being said, I don't buy your response to the second part. If you voted Adel, Adel & xyzzy would have been equal. Instead, you did nothing, and let xyzzy be lynched. I don't see a townie doing that, and combined with your defense (call it attacking kab's arguments if you want, it IS a defense) of vollkan today that seems like possible buddying, I think you deserve my vote.

I want to hear more from Phate, though. Adel is 3rd for me.

vote: Mizzy

[Guardian]

So you knew that no one else was going to vote Adel?

You knew that, for certain, at the time you unvoted and chose not to vote anyone else? And it wasn't worth putting Adel closer, since there was no chance of anyone besides xyzzy being lynched?

That's amazing.

[Guardian]

Vollkan: Mizzy unvoted later. She both unvoted in closer proximity to deadline -- and after you did so. Her protection/buttering to you is a main pillar of my suspicion. So imo finding her suspicious over you is very legitimate. I could see you two being scum together, I could see her being scum and you not, I'm not really sure I could see you scum and her not.

Mizzy: note that I am on Phate's case. He was my first vote after replacing in, and still, no one has wanted to comment at all about him being scummy. I find that infuriating, but just sitting there would breed stagnation, so I'm considering other suspects.

Primate's post near the end of day 1 was his last post in the game, I'm hesitant to characterized him as anything other than bored. But I'll look into him/Xtoxm.

scotmany is dead.

So Mizzy, I don't see how I am being inconsistent at all in voting you for that unvote.

[Guardian]

Let me try a different tact:

Mizzy, in one post in your own words, without referencing a case you or someone else has previously made, could you explain why you find kab suspicious?

[Guardian]

Hm. that doesn't sound like bullshit.

:\ I'm gonna read back and see if I can remember why I think kab is town.

[Guardian]

Hm. It is pretty much ONLY my PM convo with him, where he could be making up BS that is specifically targeted at me.

When I replaced in, I was suspicious of him, asking him a question about vollkan, but then I got sypathy for him when I PM'd him, thinking he was just a newer player having troubles (he complained about all the experience in this game, etc). looking at it, hist join date is only a little after mine...

and he could be scum having troubles. really, I might just be sympathetic to him because I've PM'd him the most, and that's dumb.

Kab, in a short, brief response, could you address Mizzy's "case" right there?

In public? I'd appreciate it.

[Guardian]

^I agree with most of that post .

I'd like you to quote Mizzy's argument sentence by sentence and respond to bits and pieces, kab.

[Guardian]

That's what I meant, but wrong post. There is a lot of overlap, but if you could do the non-overlap parts from 432 as well that would be great.

[Guardian]

I'm pretty convinced, actually. Kab, I'd like to hear your specific response as to why you don't go back and confirm things in thread, but I'm nearly dropping the hammer.

[Guardian]

So.. kab is lynched.

Can't say I particularly find Adel suspicious for hammering at this point.

I tend to trust Kab as town now that he's dead; no advantage for scum to lie post-death. I'm going to think hard about what he said via PM if I wake up tomorrow.

Basically he was very suspicious of Mizzy & vollkan, and then Jdodge. His reasons for Mizzy & vollkan outstriped those for Jdodge imo.

[Guardian]

Quick night. Frustrating play by kab there, it is hard to blame anyone for his lynch, hopefully we can gain some information about who is scum from it.

I'm thinking we should eventually no-lynch, and force the scum to kill someone else, removing a potential suspect. If we lynch incorrectly today, we lose, so we might as well get the scum to get rid of someone for us before we try.

I'll need to re-read this one again with fresh eyes/mind.

[Guardian]

Jdodge, that's actually a really good point....

[Guardian]

At lylo, I think it is appropriate to discuss our thoughts on all the players. Hopefully we can seem something fishy in the scum's discussion.

Xtomx -- Nothing much here. Mizzy made a good point yesterday in directing my attention to Primate, though. It appears he didn't place a vote all game -- and Xtoxm has only placed on vote in this game, a superflous/obvious No lynch vote. I find that very suspicious at this point. Nothing much at this point in the game indicates lurker-scum.

JDodge -- Strong supporter of both wagons. I recall him having pretty good reasons though... I don't think we go after him today, he's been playing pretty up and up.

Mizzy -- I found her suspicious earlier, but late in the day yesterday I really turned around, she made sense and I was finding her scummy in great part because in the few messages we'd exchanged kab found vollkan & Mizzy most scummy, or provided best reasons for them at lesat. Looks like he was off on vollkan, not sure trusting him at lylo on mizzy is right. Not particularly inclined to go after Mizzy here, either.

Incognito -- Not particularly sold either way on him. His play on vollkan end of day 2 struck me as very town, he wanted to be sure it was a good lynch. I'm really not sure I'm sold on his above analysis though, and at this point the scum just need 1 mislynch to win it...

Adel -- I find her somewhat suspicious, but she isn't *THAT* far off from what I see as typical crazy pro-town Adel. I feel she misrepresented her contact with Nab initially, and much of her play has been pretty WIFOMy. Again, that would usually be scummy, but this is Adel. I'd like to hear her independent thought now that NabNab is gone.

Phate -- Probably my number 1 target. I found him scummy right as he replaced in for reasons stated, and that bit about night talking just now seems damn incriminating. I'd like to hear his comprehensive thoughts on the game.

However strongly you feel, until you are SURE you want someone dead, don't vote. With day-talking, it seems mafia could easily pile on three mislynching votes for the win.

My current list from most scummy to least:

Phate
Xtoxm
Adel
Incognito
Mizzy
Jdodge

It appears my first three suspects are FOR being lurkers/hanger-on-ers. But lurking and following others is great play as scum, just let the townies argue and lynch themselves. I'm fairly sure I don't want to lynch Jdodge, Mizzy, and probably not Incognito today.

I think the top three should be forced into the light, for them to explain their previous lurking & do some real analysis and take some stances on the other players/game.

[Guardian]

[09] No small or invisible text. Don’t edit/delete previously submitted posts either.

Phate, why did you feel the need to put that meta-detail in small text?
Are you reluctant to metagame yourself here, for some reason?

[Guardian]

Adel, I'm PMing you too... Phate is my #1 target but are you SURE he is mafia?

Unless so, mafia could easily quick lynch here with the PM-ing; it would not be unreasonable to expect a mafia quick-lynch from 1 to 4 in a matter of seconds. If that doesn't happen and you don't unvote, I'm thinking you or he are mafia for sure...

[Guardian]

Well, that's interesting.

Phate I prodded you to see what you'd say... you have nothing to say?? What do you think of Adel's vote? Who do you find most suspicious?

Adel, I again encourage you to remove your vote...

[Guardian]

Hm. Of you or Phate, I think Phate is scum, Adel.

But with less than 24 hours, I think the scum may be *about* to coordinate, and not have done so yet -- you could both be town. If it gets to be like a week, get back to me.

I quick re-skimmed Phate Adel & Xtoxm, and while Phate & Xtoxm being scum together is not mutually exclusive for me, Xtoxm's complete lack of voting all game strikes me as pretty scummy.

Xtoxm is slighlty more scummy to me actually; if we do lynch Phate and are right, I'd definitely be looking at Xtoxm tomorrow.

Adel's voting changes things, but other than that I don't see why Xtoxm might not be the better play today.

Also, I find this chance pretty small -- if Phate is scum, Adel I think is town -- but it is not logically impossible for them both to be scum.

[Guardian]

vote: Adel

[Guardian]

Go team .

GG guys.

Sorry Mizzy -- and kab -- I hope you still keep up with mafia after this! (I PM'd extensively with both of them and I'm pretty sure they trusted me ;X)

Thanks Oman for moding. Thanks scum partners for being totally inconspicuous.

And this setup is definitely balanced towards scum; it is like mountainous, but 3:9 instead of 2:10 and scum get to daytalk.

PPE: LOL damn, she was quick, happy I suggested we do her and not Phate, she might have unvoted, even.

[Guardian]

I wasn't here Night 1, Night 2 Nab was an obvious, obvious choice with Adel assuming he was town and no one being suspicious of him; Night 3 we all wanted different things, Mizzy from Incog, Jdodge from me, vollkan from Xtoxm, but we decided vollkan is just too good a scum hunter and decided to kill him.

The logs I have are:

incognito -- http://www.quicktopic.com/41/H/L7kAzpQn4T65

kab -- http://www.quicktopic.com/41/H/vTLD54wDThb

nabnab -- http://www.quicktopic.com/41/H/ExkBkkV3psVh


I also talked a lot with Adel & Mizzy but we used PM not quicktopic.
Additionally, we PM'd a lot right now to set up the quick lynch.

[Guardian]

I would have... I was watching for a quick wagon to develop.

LOL, I called that to Incognito over IM. You're tricky Adel. Very tricky.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Xtoxm, lol, Incognito and I PM'd a bit during the game, we didn't include you so it wouldn't look like all three of us were plotting together xD. Sorry for missing you out on the daytalk xD.

[Guardian]

How'd you know?

[Guardian]

Why don't you want to improve my quality of play?

Whatever, not sure I even believe you.

[Guardian]

Why don't you want to improve my quality of play?

Whatever, not sure I even believe you.

I'd rather be able to read you efficiently and effectively than help you improve yourself. I tend to care about my ability to play well than yours.

That's anti-site. And I think you are BSing. But whateva

[Guardian]

Not helping improve the play of everyone around you is anti-site, imo. If I saw a glaring obvious and consistent tell for someone I played with often, I'd tell them it to improve the quality of play on the site.

Not doing so would be anti-site.

[Guardian]

OMGUS. .



Nah, actually, ok, that's reasonable. really.