Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[Ectomancer]

Your leaving is just admission that you can't be objective about Battousai. You cant defend that position. You quit. It's ok. Just remember that its a game. If it gets you angry, maybe you do need to step back from it.

[SlySly]

Sly, stop. If you've even read anything I've played I don't just quit when I get attacked. This is different.

That is why this situation has me perplexed. From what I have seen of you prior to this game, I have gathered that you are a good player. I am disappointed this game has turned out this way.

Hopefully, if we end up in another game together, things will be more like I have seen in the past.

[Tamuz]

Sly. The honest answer right now, is I don't want to play with ectomancer. I mean the battousai coming in I was going to live with. But I don't need to play in a game I already don't want to when I'm being more than harassed for non-game matters by another player in it.

Tarh has picked up my PM. That is all

[RangeroftheNorth]

Personally, I think Ectomancer has blown this entire thing way out of proportion. I can understand why he didn't like what Tamuz said, but I can also understand Tamuz's point of view. There are some players that I would vig just because I think their playstyle hurts the town, but part of being a vig is having the ability to make those type of decisions. Tamuz never said that he thought we should lynch Battoussai. I took what he was saying to be a dramatic statement concerning the amount he disliked playing with Battoussai. As far as I can tell, this entire argument stems, not from any particular scum indicators, but from two differing playstyles. Tamuz feels that a vig should be able to kill whoever he wants for whatever reasons he chooses. Ectomancer seems to feel that a vig should only kill someone he has solid evidence is scum.

This entire argument seems somewhat silly. Ectomancer is accusing Tamuz of being scum because of something that Tamuz would do if he were a vig. The entire argument is based on a hypothetical statement Tamuz made to demonstrate how much he disliked playing with someone. Ectomancer's argument seems to be that because Tamuz would kill Battoussai if he were a vig, Tamuz must be scum. I must point out that this argument makes very little sense. Actions that Tamuz would take while he was a vig, would be actions taken by a pro-town character. The fact that, as a pro-town character, Tamuz would take certain actions in no way reflects upon his current alignment.

The only valid argument that would function in this scenario would be that Tamuz's willingness to take these actions as a pro-town character proves him a liability to the town even as a pro-town character, meaning that we should lynch him regardless of his alignment. This, however, is very similar to what Tamuz was suggesting in the first place, so by that argument, Ectomancer would be just as deserving of a lynch as Tamuz.

I don't neccesarily agree with Tamuz's viewpoint, and, as far as I can remember, I have never played with Battoussai in the past, so I can't say much as to Tamuz's problem with him. I haven't been terribly impressed with Tamuz's play so far in this game where he has said very little constructive and has rarely given more than a couple of lines of explanation (excluding this last debate) so I don't think he has much room to talk, but I still think that there are serious holes in Ectomancer's argument. Ectomancer has made very little attempt to show that Tamuz is scum and has primarily demonstrated that Tamuz isn't playing the way that Ectomancer thinks he should. This may be enough for Ectomancer to vote him, but I don't think it will convince many other people.

Tamuz, if you feel a strong need to drop out of this game, I won't stop you. I think, however, that the persecution you are feeling will die down quickly, and I think that it was pretty isolated in its source. If you would be willing to continue in this game, I, for one, would be happy to have you.

[Ectomancer]

Persecution. Overstate much? Scumbuddy?

I explained why his action is scummy, and gave you an example of it. What exactly dont you get Ranger? You know how you find scum? By lynching people who do things scum do.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Whether or not you are persecuting him, I think persecution is a fair word to use to summarize the way Tamuz feels about the way he is being attacked. My address was to him, and was an attempt to get him to stay in the game, but I stand by my word choice. I chose the word not to represent the we I would I would convey the attacks, but rather to express my understanding of Tamuz's viewpoint and concerns.

As for your example, you pointed out a single game where, as scum, you did something that could be considered to be related to what Tamuz said he would do under certain circumstances. Personally, I think that the example you bring up is only vaguely related to the case Tamuz is talking about, but that doesn't deny the fact that your logic is flawed. Tamuz did not do anything. Tamuz was talking about a certain scenario in which he would do something. In that scenario, Tamuz was pro-town. Your logic that states that, because he would do something in a scenario in which he was pro-town, he must therefore be scum. This is not valid logic.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't see the illogic inherent in your post, but I'm not going to stop pointing out the problems with your logic. When I see bad logic, I will call it out.

[Battousai]

Can we please save this for day 2? Deadline is really close, and I would personally like for the town to make a decision before then. Ecto, Tamuz is not going to be lynched day 1, not enough time or evidence to convince for a majority vote. So, save it for another day, ok.

I would also like the answer to the jester role. If Rosso is the jester and we lynch him, is it auto-win for him/ auto-loose for us?

Johoohno, you still haven't commented on Tamuz's post on the last page. Could you please clarify that.

To Tamuz- I feel that if you leave because of my playstyle from a previous game, it is stupid ( I know its not the main reason, but it isn't helping). So far in this game, I haven't done anything "detrimental" to the town. Therefore, keep an open mind.

[Jester]

My vote on you is now locked and I summarily ignore and dismiss the remainder of your post unless your innocence is proved upon your death.

This doesn't seem very beneficial for the town.

That depends entirely on your alignment, wouldn't you say? I'm convinced you're scum, so I'm quite happy with where my vote is.

Unless something major happens (and I'm not sure the Tamuz whining qualifies), this will be my last post until after deadline.

[Ectomancer]

Oh my dear Ranger, so full of opinion, but only after Tamuz decided to take his ball and go home. Where oh where were you prior? Where were these opinions? Afraid to get caught up in it yourself?
His statement is a scumtell to me. He demonstrated a meta-bias against a player with no evidence, period. He stated

himself

, that he had a bias against Battousai.

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

You agree with that logic as well RangerofTheNorth? Bad logic? Bad scum. You dont lynch someone you know to be town, period. Dont give me this crap that

my

logic is bad. Tell me you want to lynch town if they play badly. You can have my vote too.

[RangeroftheNorth]

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

If he said that, please show me where. Looking over his posts, I can't find it.

When I first saw the fight, I assumed it was something minor that would pass over fairly quickly. I chose instead to comment on Rosso Carne's post. By the time I checked again, this had blown up into something far larger.

By your logic, Tamuz's beliefs would make him scum in every game. His meta-beliefs cannot make him scum in a particular game. They can make him a poor player, but, according to you, that isn't enough to lynch someone for.

In this, I would consider vigging very different from lynching. A vigilante is in the position to make calls for themself about who should live or die. With no knowledge of whether or not someone is scum, it is still within your jurisdiction to kill them. If you have a reason to believe they are pro-town, it might be a poor choice, but it is still your choice to make. No choice that a vigilante makes can make him anti-town. A vigilante can be harmful to the town, but he/she is by definition, a pro-town player. If your argument is that it would be better to lynch a vig who would kill a townie who played badly, then you are also claiming that we should lynch a pro-town player who played badly.

I don't think we should lynch townies who play badly, but I think it is perfectly reasonable to lynch any player who acts like scum. Most examples of bad play are bad play because they are far more beneficial for scum than for the town. Unless they are in some way confirmed innocent, it is fairly reasonable to be more suspicious of players who play poorly. Often, they are playing in a way that would be advantageous to the mafia, but is harmful to the town.

[SlySly]

My vote on you is now locked and I summarily ignore and dismiss the remainder of your post unless your innocence is proved upon your death.

This doesn't seem very beneficial for the town.

QFT.

Sounds as though Jester is saying that he is locked on and unwillingly to hear any other perspective no matter how reasonable it is and how much sense it makes.

That depends entirely on your alignment, wouldn't you say? I'm convinced you're scum, so I'm quite happy with where my vote is.

Unless something major happens (and I'm not sure the Tamuz whining qualifies), this will be my last post until after deadline.

I thought this attitude was a little fishy the first time, now it is starting to sound scummy.

What major could happen to make you post again? Maybe someone other than your scumbuddy(I have no suspicion of a scum connection to you at the moment but IGMEOY) reaching L-1 so you can change your vote to hammer an innocent?

I would have put a vote on you for these comments Jester, but I went back and looked at the posts that Johoonoo quoted you from and I noticed that he had really kind of taken you out of context by just stripping the part of your quote that would make his statement have more weight. I have to point back out what he cut out because I agree with your evaluation of a lie Johoonoo made.

Well, it’s the truth, I have had the same people on my scum list all along since my post 169.

Gotcha! That's a lie. You said in one of your follow-up posts that your 169 "scum list" wasn't your list of suspects, but just a list of people who had votes up to that point. Can't remember the post number, but I'm gonna find it. My vote on you is now locked and I summarily ignore and dismiss the remainder of your post unless your innocence is proved upon your death.

QFT. J's statement you pointed is a lie and he took you out of context to shift blame to you so others would not come back to this post to see the truth.

unvote:RC

vote:Johoonoo

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After reading through things again, RC and BB/Fat Tony still sound scummy all the way through. It started with frequent defenses of each other which got changed to ridiculousness and distance after Fat Tony replaced in.

Ecto, your latest vote shift and reasoning seem a bit over the edge and I find myself questioning your motives. Throughout the game, you seem to have directed and shifted your probes thoughtfully and efficiently. However, this last attack on Tamuz seems to almost come out of nowhere and also seems based on less ammunition than your previous attacks while you seemingly have more conviction on this weaker attack than you had with your previous stronger attacks. Not only did Tamuz not attempt to get anyone to vote on Battousai, he himself never voted or FOS'd him. Maybe I have the advantage of being in the game with Tamuz and Battousai, but I really don't see Tamuz carrying his bias over to this game from the other game considering his voting and FOS patterns in this game.

I didn't like Johoonoo's early game setup speculation but if his early theory is correct, there would be no better candidate for having 'lone ranger'-ness in this game than you.

IGMEOY: Ectomancer

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It would sure be nice for Earwig to join us. If he can't, a replacement might be a good thing to consider.

Battousai, don't fear taking part. Remember, in the game that is causing your grief in this one, you had an evil scum helping to make you look really bad. It wasn't all your fault, though the 1st post role innuendo was a gem!!

[Ectomancer]

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

If he said that, please show me where. Looking over his posts, I can't find it.

Really? You missed all of this?

It would NOT be solely done for my own ends. I would either be getting rid of a hard to spot scum--on grounds of impossible to differentiate town play-- or a detrimentally bad townie.

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B for the good of the town because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame.

3. So we disagree on whats good for the town. I prefer to have quality plays who play like town when they are town, not scum when they are town. I prefer players who have a hope of winning the game. Buffalo theory, kill off the weak, make everyone stronger. I wrote more response, but then I felt dumb because it concerned lynching, and I haven't advocated a B lynch

What is all of this? This is Tamuz's excuse to jump on a bandwagon at any time. It's called reserving a seat. You can argue semantics over the use if vig vs lynch, but it is all the same thing, killing a townie on purpose. Arranging to be able to place a vote without a case.

You dont' see it as scummy? You dont win many mafia games do you?

[Ectomancer]

See the above SlySly. Same goes to you.

[Earwig]

BTW Earwig, your post is shit, I do note that you aren't doing anything real.

I don't really care what you note, Tamuz.

Also, I can't believe you let Ecto get under your skin. As he said - this is a GAME - nothing more. I've been in games with him before - This is how he plays.

[Ectomancer]

BTW Earwig, your post is shit, I do note that you aren't doing anything real.

I don't really care what you note, Tamuz.

Also, I can't believe you let Ecto get under your skin. As he said - this is a GAME - nothing more. I've been in games with him before - This is how he plays.

Well I wasn't being a dick. It's a simple formula. See scumtell. Pressure. See more evidence of scumminess. Pressure. Repeat until lynched or town remains unconvinced or evidence surfaces to counter the arguments made.

Earwig? Scum hunt.....ever?

[Tarhalindur]

WTF. 24 hours to deadline and the game situation goes to hell in a handbasket.

Not only have I been unable to keep up with the game since Sunday due to illness, but I now have TWO outstanding replacement requests (Tamuz and Fat_Tony).

I really only have one option here. DEADLINE RETRACTED. I will implement a nonretractable 1-week deadline upon filling both replacement slots (unless a lynch happens first, that is). -Tar

Fortieth Vote Count

Rosso Carne (4) - thenextepisode, nyktorion, Fat_Tony (rep. Blackberry), RangeroftheNorth (rep. Dean Harper)
SlySly (1) - Johoohno
Tamuz (1) - Ectomancer
thenextepisode (1) - Rosso Carne
Johoohno (4) - Tamuz, Battousai (rep. ryan), Jester, SlySly

Not Voting (1) - Earwig

7 votes to lynch.

FoS Count:

Rosso Carne (1) - Jester
Fat_Tony (rep. Blackberry) (2) - thenextepisode, Jester
Ectomancer (2) - Earwig, thenextepisode
Earwig (3) - Ectomancer, RangeroftheNorth, Jester
Battousai (rep. ryan) (1) - Ectomancer
Tamuz (2) - Battousai, Ectomancer
thenextepisode (1) - Fat_Tony (rep. Blackberry)
Johoohno (2) - Nyktorion, Jester

Indigo

indicates a player in danger of replacement.

Final Day 1 Deadline:

NONE DUE TO EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES

[SlySly]

You dont' see it as scummy? You dont win many mafia games do you?

I see your points and agree to a certain extent. If Tamuz had actually made a move on Battousai, I would agree 100%, but he didn't. Everything he said was theory for if he had been a different role.

I'm not sure, but I think my win/loss record is 2-1. I am eating my Wheaties and am hoping to grow into a great scum hunting exposer someday.

[Rosso Carne]

dont like a vote on joohoo but meh.

[Ectomancer]

You dont' see it as scummy? You dont win many mafia games do you?

I see your points and agree to a certain extent. If Tamuz had actually made a move on Battousai, I would agree 100%, but he didn't. Everything he said was theory for if he had been a different role.

I'm not sure, but I think my win/loss record is 2-1. I am eating my Wheaties and am hoping to grow into a great scum hunting exposer someday.

He did make a move SlySly. "Moves" are more than just votes. I questioned his stated motivations for making the move. Anytime I see a bogus "for the good of the town" comment, I am going to be all over it. If he is town, he shouldn't have tucked his tail and run. (If he's scum he shouldn't have done it either, but that's a different story)

Unfortunately, it doesn't look as though enough of you will be swayed enough to lynch him today, especially as he wont be here to defend himself now. It's going to be the suck for a replacement to have to pick up from that, but oh well. I cant ignore the previous player, and unlike Tamuz, this isn't a meta. Still, I wont go all frontal assault on them when they arrive. Like I said, I'm not a dick.

[Nyktorion]

Since Tamuz was so focused on a comment to his fight against Johoohoo, here is what I think about it:

• Tamuz (and Dean Harper) was the first ones to post (4) only minutes after the mod started the game. That MIGHT be an indication that mafia had talked things through and sent in their confirmations waiting for the game to start. (I know it would be more valid if I also saw Dean Harper/RangeroftheNorth as a possible scum partner, which I don’t at the moment.)
• Seems to post only to appear active (post 84, 120 and 325) and sometimes it’s just about wordings (288).
• As I’ve said before he also wonders about the FoS-counts (post 94 which I talked about in post 202).
• In post 191 RangeroftheNorth votes for me and Tamuz quickly shifts to me too (post 193 and 197) perhaps seeing me as a wagon that’ll build up quickly.
• Post 199 is a fishy post where he tries to give himself airs to avoid reading the game closely and focus on staying alive. Someone else has already said this, the point is not, for an individual townie, to stay alive (unless that would benefit the town).
• He is also against a Rosso Carne lynch 249 and asks for Nyktorion and Jester’s reason for said lynch. Here I see two possible things. Perhaps he wants to lift up this issue once more with the help of two, at that time, very townish players to come to a lynch (seeing their reasons and then agreeing with them). It could also be that they are scum pairs (Rosso and Tamuz). In this game a lot of people have connected players with one another and perhaps Tamuz feels that this one will only be one among many and won’t be picked up. The last point is in that case even more shadowed by adding more bussing issues in the thread in post 266.
• (* This last entry is only for conspiratorial fun Tamuz mentioned Battousai in post 120. He is also the one who informs the game of ryan’s ban 321. Lo’ and behold, enter Battousai 324.)

1. Horrible

time based meta

with someone who you think isn't scum with me.
2. Floppy point with subjective wording

"seems"

3. Not reading the rules. OMG that makes me scum!
4. Agreeing with reasonable rhetoric and applying pressure. (this one I'll give you, it can seem scummy) BUT you add motive of "perhaps seeing me as a wagon that'll build up quickly. Psshhhhhh if you go that far out of your way to dish motives onto me to call me scum, I call this point weak at worst. On top of that you say "Perhaps", you aren't even sure of yourself to call me out. None of this weak language. Just say it if you think its the truth. "I think Tamuz is doing this because he want to build a quick wagon on me". Scum use weak words like Seems and Perhaps. You are scum. I am voting for you.
5. See frustration from Battousai SlySly game. And I know that me staying alive would be cool. I know my role, I know my win condition is to get rid of dem rascal mafiates. I don't know anyone elses. And in a MM game where powerroles are minute at best who is there to sacrifice myself for as a target? Another vanilla? Hell yeah I want to stay alive
6. I don't even understand this point. HOW does this make me scummy. I ask people to qualify themselves in a point where the game was stagnating. And personally Jester is not Townish to me. The second half of your point 6 is a dead ramble.

Point 1 does seem like a stretch, however, it was also formulated weaker than his other points, indicating that this was not really Johoo's main point. Points 2-4 are real points against Tamuz or whoever is replacing him. They don't make him scum yet, but they do make him scummy. The thing is just that we currently have scummier players than that in the game. I would have to read the "Battousai-SlySly-Tamuz" game in order to really be able to judge Tamuz's defense agaist point 5. Concerning point 6, it is of course okay if Tamuz asks Jester and me for our reasons to vote. However, Johoo's other point here makes sense: it might have been good to post some reasons when stating an opinion that goes so much against the mainstream.

Ecto's attack against Tamuz does seem based on a rather small foundation. However, albeit small, the foundation is sound: as long as Battousai does not do anything detrimental for town in this game, he should not be attacked for his behavior somewhere else.

Currently, I am still happy with my vote on RC, and Johoo's point that RC is also able to act pro-town on D1 only adds to that.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm. Here I was expecting to see some opportunistic attacks on me for my boldness on Tamuz. That's a surprising post from you Nyktorian, and not just because it happens to support my position. +1 town (for not taking an easy attack, or sitting back quiet about it)

unvote

You really think RC is scum, and not just playstyle? What about TheNextEpisodes creepy post in regards to RC?

[Nyktorion]

As I said, the game pointed out by Johoo does show that RC. Furthermore, he is much more experienced than TNE and therefore should probably know full well what he is doing right now - which increases the chance that his acting is not just desinterest, but calculated. And hiding your tactics from the town in this way cannot be good for the town. It could very well be his strategy to just do nothing significant. Then all cases against him can only be based on this one thing, and discussion about him are deadened by the fact that he just does not respond to accusations.

TNE has not made himself likable either, but seems not just as bad as RC: he is at least somewhat trying to help town (though he is just following other a lot, too), and he has his newbishness working for him here.

[Nyktorion]

One little question to you, too:

Hmm. Here I was expecting to see some opportunistic attacks on me for my boldness on Tamuz. That's a surprising post from you Nyktorian, and not just because it happens to support my position.

Why do you think this is surprising, considering that probably 8-10 of us 12 are pro-town?

[Ectomancer]

As I said, the game pointed out by Johoo does show that RC. Furthermore, he is much more experienced than TNE and therefore should probably know full well what he is doing right now - which increases the chance that his acting is not just desinterest, but calculated. And hiding your tactics from the town in this way cannot be good for the town. It could very well be his strategy to just do nothing significant. Then all cases against him can only be based on this one thing, and discussion about him are deadened by the fact that he just does not respond to accusations.

TNE has not made himself likable either, but seems not just as bad as RC: he is at least somewhat trying to help town (though he is just following other a lot, too), and he has his newbishness working for him here.

I can buy that argument.

Anyone else with anything to say?

[Ectomancer]

This game is lagging.

Update if anyone cared: I got my results back from my MRI, and though its not good news, at least I have a diagnosis. Ive got a degenerative spine condition called Cervical Spinal Stenosis. What it means is that the opening where my spinal cord passes through is getting smaller and putting pressure on the spinal cord. My understanding of it is they will treat it with drugs and painkillers as best we can until it gets to the point where I have to undergo surgery to have portions of my inner vertabrae removed to make space for the spinal cord. If the drugs are good enough, maybe I can hold off long enough to die of other causes before letting some whacko have at my spine with a knife. So, until I can see the neurologist and get some good drugs, I'll be my same crotchety self. Thank you.