Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[kirroha]

Okay, looks like my latest post has attracted quite a bit of suspicion.

This is so wishy washy. And panicky. The first sentence reeks especially since I explained how every town player should naturally be biased against their lover.

Now this doesn't sound quite right. You said I was wishy-washy? I think you're trying too hard to look town. I don't think anybody here wants to die, not even scum. But you are there, saying nobly that you would be biased against your lover, which doesn't sound particularly right to me. It's alright to not be biased against or towards your lover, and that is the most townieish to me - being neutral to everyone as a suspect, but I think you are leaning far too much to one side. I really think you're trying to look town since you are depicting your own actions as town. Town players shouldn't keep explaining their actions as town - doing so just sounds frightened of being suspected. You should explain when somebody thinks that your pro-town actions are scummy, yes - but just explaining when nobody thinks it's suspicious in the first place is anti-town to me.

To be fair, I was only trying to start a wagon on Mitey, but voting kirroha after this is a much better option.

Everyone, look - Mitey is my lover. So in this case, switching votes doesn't actually mean a thing. But did you realise that he was just stuck voting between two pairings only? (Mitey/Kirro and Kmd/soni) The only pairing which he hasn't touched is the DDD/ZazieR pairing. In my opinion, if Korts is scum, his scumpartner is most likely in the DDD/Zazie pairing, because I believe that scum would not want to attract suspicion to their own scummates or their scummate's lover.

wishy washy buddy uppy

"Buddy uppy"? Just in case you didn't notice, Korts - you are the highest up on my scumlist so far. Kmd comes in second, although I'm having second thoughts about his scumminess since I find either DDD or Zazie a more possible scumbuddy of yours.

Now you see - I think you're nitpicking way too much. Nitpicking scummy things are okay, but the problem is, you're taking words that obviously have nothing to do with buddying up to you and trying to convince the others that I'm trying to buddy up. That doesn't sound very right to me.

If you are town, Korts - I really don't like the way you try to drive sportscars from so early on in the RVS stage. So far you've zoomed in at Kmd, Mitey and me. I think it would be better if you are town to watch other players' movements properly instead of just being paranoid at every letter, because there is a high chance that you are wrong. And building a wagon would just make it easy for the scum.

I was referring to the fact that Kmd and I were arguing on a nearly irrelevant point between ourselves and everyone else was sitting it out without a single comment.

Which, I presume - means that you are exasperated at the inactivity?

Gives waaay too much credit to sonic.

Can we lynch the scum soonish?

I find sonic protown. If you think differently, then you think differently. I'm not sure if you're trying to build suspicion on sonic as well - that would make suspicion on Kmd, Mitey, me AND sonic, which is exactly 2 pairings. Which also bolds the fact that DDD/Zazie is the only pairing which you haven't yet touched.

And what makes you so sure that I'm scum? It's still quite early in the game, and there's no way you can be so sure. Doing so just makes it easy for the scum to hop up.

Kirroha's post is really fence sitting. By claiming each option, she can easily explain why she changed her mind if she changes her mind. I see this more an action for scum to do.
Also, there's some WIFOM invloved. Especially in the part of Soccer.

I don't find how it seems fence-sitting, but I have to say I play differently than Korts. It's still early in the game, only page 3, so I prefer looking at everyone as an equal and say what I think about them first rather than just zoom in on one like what Korts is doing. I can't be too sure anyone is scum. Here, two mislynches can cost us the game, so I think if I play like Korts it would make it too easy for the scum.

And Soccer? O_o

ORLY? Then who does he see as scummy? Because so far, he's asked questions about nit picky things (Hypocrite?) has given his opinion of the Kmd - Korts discussion and has defended himself against the accusations from Kevin and Korts. I don't see anything where he tells us who he thinks is scummy. So please tell.

First, I find your "meta vote" on Percy quite interesting, so I would like to see some posts from the other games which caused you to think that he's scum.

Anyway, his posts are definitely the longest and most detailed ones. And as you know, long and detailed posts are very easy to nitpick on, but Percy just doesn't seem afraid of looking scummy to me. He seems to be trying hard to find scum, and I believe from the tone of his posts he is setting his eyes on Kmd, and maybe a little on Korts. He gives off pro-town vibes to me.

But still - if you really can find meta info that makes him seem scummy, I would like to see them.

Oh and

Vote: Korts

. So you can see my stand for now. I'm not going to keep zooming at him like how Korts does with the others, but he definitely is highest up on my suspicion list.

[Kmd4390]

Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a sensible case? Yes.
Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a horrible case? Also yes.
I prefer for there to be some more information out there before we start attacking people for silly things. The RVS is a great way to provide this information. As I stated, the scum hate the RVS, as it's much harder to manipulate than stupid cases, especially those made by or against bad players.

The possibility of a case being horrible is NOT a reason not to pursue cases.

The sooner a game is out of the RVS, the better.

My vote will give info when I feel there is info to give.

What the hell does this even mean? Are you saying that you won't participate in the RVS? If so, why vote at all? Or are you saying that you agree with my position, except you've just got a placeholder vote?

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

BTW note that Percy's post took a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up. On the fence is a good spot for scum to be enjoying the view from.

Sorry Korts, but this is crap. I didn't take a strong view on any issue, because I don't have enough information to take a strong view (which includes my lack of serious voting). Instead, I asked questions and stated my opinion. The fact that I didn't charge out of the gate and agree with one of you 100% on page 2 doesn't even come close to a scumtell.

I didn't see opinions. I saw IIOA.

And on a second read, I see a lot of IIOA in that post of Percy's that you mentioned. It looks like he's just recapping the game and not really adding anything to it.

Nice try. I actually take time to analyse both your position and Korts' vote, as well as calling out sonicchaos on his non-random "random" vote. Calling it IIoA is ridiculous.

You state what happened. You don't take any kind of stance. It's textbook IIOA.

@Kmd: What is your opinion of ZazieR's play so far?

No read yet, but I respond as I read and I see that she has posted after this post. I'll answer your question at the end of my post.

3) Korts is scum, Kmd is town. From past experiences, I think that scum would like to create a huge wagon on a townie early in the game by exaggerating their movements to scummier than they already are, and in such a setup where every lynch is extremely crucial, I think this is a possibility worth considering.
4) Korts and Kmd are both scum. This is also likely, but very risky. Korts is making himself look rather scummy by doing this, and Kmd might be attracting unwanted attention to himself. Still, if it ended up working, it would be the perfect distancing tactic.

Thus, though I find possibility 3) and 4) quite likely, 1) is still the most likely for me, so I won't vote or FoS him. Still, IGMEOY, Korts, Kmd.

You say 3 and 4 are likely. Both have Korts as scum. Why no vote on him? Then you go on to say it is more likely that we are both town. Why is that? Why point out the others as likely if you don't believe them?

Kirroha, is Korts your scumbuddy?

@hohum: kirroah voted me.

Okay, Kirroha is spelt wrongly, but anyways...

He tells the mod about a mistake on his vote. If he were scum, there is absolutely no benefit in doing something like this, knowing that it most probably won't be noticed and would just increase his vote count by 1. He could always pretend not to see my vote, and still pass off as town. But he pointed out the vote. Either he is scum with a ridiculously high level of sportsmanship or town.

Actually, it's better to correct any mistakes regardless of alignment. Null tell.

2. I don't want to die day 1.

He's honest. I doubt scum would like to reveal the fact that they don't want to die.

Actually, why would town me so worried about dying. If your lover is scum, you have to die in order to win.

I find it interesting that you are so quick to clear Sonic.

Vote Percy

For meta reasons.

Care to elaborate? (Never mind. I see it in your next post)

To clarify: his post 30 is a good case of only information and not taking a stance. This was not the case in the games I've seen him as town (open 98 and twice in mafia 87). This however was the case in mini 751 (Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia modded by Tar).

Interesting.

Jail bait?

Well, you should actually think about something else
(HINT: our convo yesterday)

lol.


---------------------------------------------

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.


So, going Scum -> Town (scum on top), here is my current list:
Percy
kirroha
sonicchaos1993
MiteyMouse
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Korts
ZazieR
Kmd4390

-------------------------------

Percy seems to not want to take stances. I see that as a major scum tell normally, and with the meta provided by Zaz, it makes it even more damning.

Unvote, Vote Percy

Suspicious of Kirroha for that last post.

Sonic and Mitey for reasons mentioned previously, but less suspicious than both Percy and Kirroha.

DDD seems really under the radar. No read.

Korts is extremely protown. The only way I see him as scum is if Kirroha is his buddy. The way he isn't afraid to be suspicious of Percy and even seems to support looking at Percy looks really protown. Also, questioning my vote was a great discussion starter.

Zaz is obvtown because her meta matches her town play.

I'm town because my Role PM says so.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

unvote, vote: kirroha

bandwagon gogogo

Ok.

Unvote

Vote: kirroha

Earlier posts had little to no content, posts with content have content that appears to my eye to basically be generally incorrect.

[hohum]

Official Vote Count, with 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

sonicchaos1993(0)
kirroha(2) Korts, Dobonair Danny DiPietro
MiteyMouse(0)
Percy(3) MiteyMouse, ZazieR, Kmd4390
Debonair Danny DiPietro(1) Percy
Korts(2) sonicchaos1993, kirroah
ZazieR(0)
Kmd4390(0)

[Korts]

P.S. Korts, you don't have to be jealous Rofl has a reason to be jealous though, as you apparently found a new lover Does he know?

I believe in polyamory

EBWOP
Korts, why didn't you point this out with my vote?

Meh. It was a conversation starter, and conversation had already started by then.

And this time, you (and Korts as well) are giving 'advice' to the scum. This makes lots of sense...

Hm. This makes sense. Then again, I already found likely scum based on trust in their partner, despite the fact that my point had already been stated.

---

I really think you're trying to look town since you are depicting your own actions as town.

Umm what? I have an opinion on what play would be pro-town, and act accordingly; you are really saying that that is scummy? You are trying way too hard to twist this in your favor.

But did you realise that he was just stuck voting between two pairings only? (Mitey/Kirro and Kmd/soni) The only pairing which he hasn't touched is the DDD/ZazieR pairing. In my opinion, if Korts is scum, his scumpartner is most likely in the DDD/Zazie pairing, because I believe that scum would not want to attract suspicion to their own scummates or their scummate's lover.

Seriously, we have had four pages of discussion--why the fuck should I have voted at least one player from each pair by this time?

So far you've zoomed in at Kmd, Mitey and me

Of which the only really serious case/vote is the one currently on you. (Also, note that my vote on Mitey was only ever for one single post, without even a hint of a case. How is that "zooming in"?)

Which, I presume - means that you are exasperated at the inactivity?

yes

there's no way you can be so sure

SCUM-PANIC ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

[kirroha]

Earlier posts had little to no content, posts with content have content that appears to my eye to basically be generally incorrect.

wishy washy wagon jumpy

Anyway, why did you only vote for me after I listed you out as a possible scumbuddy of Korts'? That's filled with OMGUS, too.

And about 'generally incorrect'... if you really want to say about how they're 'incorrect', can you list out HOW they're incorrect? Or you're just trying to convince the all the townies to vote for me?

Umm what? I have an opinion on what play would be pro-town, and act accordingly; you are really saying that that is scummy? You are trying way too hard to twist this in your favor.

I'm trying too hard to twist this into my favor? No.

Everyone, do you realise something? Korts has suspected a few people before. One of them was

Percy

, his lover. However, one thing you have to notice: He voted for my lover, Mitey, just because of one post of hers (and he didn't provide much proof; just jumped on her wagon). Yet, he has never shown the slightest inkling of ever wanting to vote for Percy.

And you say that you are naturally biased

against

your lover? I think it's just something you said to make people falsely assume that you are town.

Seriously, we have had four pages of discussion--why the fuck should I have voted at least one player from each pair by this time?

That would be valid if you haven't shown signs of suspicion around DDD/ZazieR. You've never shown the slightest bit of suspecting them. Yet you've suspected everyone else: Kmd, Mitey, Sonic, Percy and me, all without much valid proof. But DDD and Zazie? You didn't say anything about them at all. Not wanting to make interactions between you and them obvious, eh?

Of which the only really serious case/vote is the one currently on you. (Also, note that my vote on Mitey was only ever for one single post, without even a hint of a case. How is that "zooming in"?)

Oh, weren't you the one who spent like 2 pages of the discussion arguing with Kmd just because he voted for

ZazieR

? Weren't you the one who hopped on Mitey's wagon without your own opinion? Korts, your posts are filled with OMGUS. Just because you were top on my suspicion list, you retaliated so fiercely. Before that, you didn't show any sign of wanting to suspect me. Why is that so?

SCUM-PANIC ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

Ha very ha.

Very funny, Korts.

diescumdie.

Confirm Vote: Korts

*cough*I want everyone to chime in now*cough*

[Percy]

Just had to do a huge re-read-and-post another game I'm in, and I'm completely mafia'd out today. I will post tomorrow!

[Korts]

Everyone, do you realise something? Korts has suspected a few people before. One of them was Percy, his lover. However, one thing you have to notice: He voted for my lover, Mitey, just because of one post of hers (and he didn't provide much proof; just jumped on her wagon). Yet, he has never shown the slightest inkling of ever wanting to vote for Percy.

I never said anything about reasons for voting Mitey; what makes you think I voted Mitey for that post?

And no, I didn't vote Percy, because my vote served a better purpose elsewhere.

That would be valid if you haven't shown signs of suspicion around DDD/ZazieR. You've never shown the slightest bit of suspecting them. Yet you've suspected everyone else: Kmd, Mitey, Sonic, Percy and me, all without much valid proof.

Of for fuckssake. THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN ANY REASON FOR ME TO. You have. Percy has. And I never suspected Kmd, Mitey or Sonic. This is very blatant misrep.

Korts, your posts are filled with OMGUS.

Hardy har har. I have a good case on you, while you basically voted me for my attitude. Who's "OMGUS"-ing exactly?

BTW the case is this, in order of strongest point to weakest:

• Blatant misrepresentation of my actions and opinions on multiple cases
• Trust in lover partner
• Too much credit for sonic
• initial wishy-washy stance on Kmd vs. Korts

[ZazieR]

Kirroha

I don't find how it seems fence-sitting, but I have to say I play differently than Korts. It's still early in the game, only page 3, so I prefer looking at everyone as an equal and say what I think about them first rather than just zoom in on one like what Korts is doing. I can't be too sure anyone is scum. Here, two mislynches can cost us the game, so I think if I play like Korts it would make it too easy for the scum.

You're points against MM all are following the same thing:
*That, but this....
This gives you the possibility to easily change your opinion when players don't agree.

Next was Korts. For each thing you could have given your opinion off, you name each interpretation that could be possible. You even call each possible connection between the allignments of Kevin and Korts a possibility. Once again, this gives you the option to alter your opinion to what other players say.

And last where you were fence sitting was Kevin:
If he's town, he would do this.
If he's scum, he would do this as well.
If both are scum, we won't know.

So you took no chance regarding Kevin's allignment.

What happened to Korts also happened to Soccer, but here you took more of a stance. But even then, you took every possibility.

And Soccer? O_o

He tells the mod about a mistake on his vote. If he were scum, there is absolutely no benefit in doing something like this, knowing that it most probably won't be noticed and would just increase his vote count by 1. He could always pretend not to see my vote, and still pass off as town. But he pointed out the vote. Either he is scum with a ridiculously high level of sportsmanship or town.

He's honest. I doubt scum would like to reveal the fact that they don't want to die.

First, I find your "meta vote" on Percy quite interesting, so I would like to see some posts from the other games which caused you to think that he's scum.

I named three games: Open 98, Mafia 87 (both as town) and mini 751 (scum)
Mafia 87 shows the meta argument the most for the town side, and you can compare it with mini 751.
It's a lot to post, and you can see his posts in context if you check it yourself.

[ZazieR]

Kirroha

I don't think anybody here wants to die, not even scum. But you are there, saying nobly that you would be biased against your lover, which doesn't sound particularly right to me. It's alright to not be biased against or towards your lover, and that is the most townieish to me - being neutral to everyone as a suspect, but I think you are leaning far too much to one side.

Everyone, do you realise something? Korts has suspected a few people before. One of them was Percy, his lover. However, one thing you have to notice: He voted for my lover, Mitey, just because of one post of hers (and he didn't provide much proof; just jumped on her wagon). Yet, he has never shown the slightest inkling of ever wanting to vote for Percy.

And you say that you are naturally biased against your lover? I think it's just something you said to make people falsely assume that you are town.

So wait, Korts is leaning too far to one side, which you don't like. But you also don't like it that Korts hasn't voted Percy. Wouldn't he be leaning too far to one side, if he voted Percy? To me, the answer is 'yes'. So I don't know what to think of these two quotes.

Two questions:
-How come you think that if Korts is scum, his partner is either me or DDD, while you know that scum can buss?
-Based upon this quote:

And what makes you so sure that I'm scum? It's still quite early in the game, and there's no way you can be so sure. Doing so just makes it easy for the scum to hop up.

Didn't you do this as well when confirming your vote against Korts?

[ZazieR]

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Earlier posts had little to no content, posts with content have content that appears to my eye to basically be generally incorrect.

wishy washy wagon jumpy

Wishy washy? Not at all.

Wagon jumpy? I think I made it obvious that's exactly what I was doing.

Anyway, why did you only vote for me after I listed you out as a possible scumbuddy of Korts'? That's filled with OMGUS, too.

Mmhhmm, I voted the first time I came into this thread after your posts with content and Kort's vote on you. It's not in fact possible to vote for someone if the reasons for your vote haven't actually happened yet, so that would be why I didn't vote you in this nebulous before you suggest I should have.

And about 'generally incorrect'... if you really want to say about how they're 'incorrect', can you list out HOW they're incorrect? Or you're just trying to convince the all the townies to vote for me?

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all. And your last sentence almost seems like you're disassociating yourself from the town. Instead of "the rest" or "the other" townies, it's "all the" townies which seems to imply that you're not one of us. Not that I put much stock in such slips, but it's just another point against you.

[kirroha]

I never said anything about reasons for voting Mitey; what makes you think I voted Mitey for that post?

If you haven't stated any reasons, then isn't that just hopping on a wagon? I thought hopping on a wagon without reason was a scumtell?

And no, I didn't vote Percy, because my vote served a better purpose elsewhere.

At that time, I haven't spoken yet against you. So I see no reason why you couldn't vote for him, unless by "better purpose" you meant Mitey.

Of for fuckssake. THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN ANY REASON FOR ME TO. You have. Percy has. And I never suspected Kmd, Mitey or Sonic. This is very blatant misrep.

Then what's with the 2 page long argument about Kmd's vote on ZazieR? What about voting for Mitey? What about saying I'm giving too much credit to Sonic? Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it sounds as if you're hinting he's a possible scumbuddy for me, which is counted as suspecting him.

And still, you admit to suspecting Percy, but you didn't vote for him because he was your lover, right?

Hardy har har. I have a good case on you, while you basically voted me for my attitude. Who's "OMGUS"-ing exactly?

Look. All I did was to put down what I thought about the players. And then you voted for me because you were top on my suspicions list. You didn't show the slightest bit of wanting to vote for me before I suspected you. How is that so?

Blatant misrepresentation of my actions and opinions on multiple cases

If I misinterpreted your actions, then please explain! Don't just stand there and say that my case is crap without telling me exactly how it's crap! Tell me why it is so I can understand why you're behaving like that.

Trust in lover partner

You got it completely wrong. At the beginning of the game, when I was PMing Mitey, I felt really weird not trusting in my lover partner, since I've played in quite a few lover games where you have exactly the same role as your lover, so you can trust them completely. But now, since there's a 50% chance of Mitey being scum, I was rather worried. So I really didn't know whether to trust her or not. But I really want to be able to work together, since she's the only one I can talk privately to. Still, I get nagging suspicions, so it gets me a bit confused.

Too much credit for sonic

I believe he's town, and I believe Percy is town too. Surprisingly, you never said 'too much credit for Percy'.

initial wishy-washy stance on Kmd vs. Korts

I was just listing down the possibilities. At first, I believed that you were town, but now you really are proving me otherwise. If I really am misinterpreting your actions completely, I'm sorry, and please correct me. I'm not very good at this, and maybe you can help me a little as to how to properly interpret others' actions.

You're points against MM all are following the same thing:
*That, but this....
This gives you the possibility to easily change your opinion when players don't agree.

Yet, I listed down which possibility I found the most possible. I didn't just put the possibilities there and run away. I stated my stand.

Next was Korts. For each thing you could have given your opinion off, you name each interpretation that could be possible. You even call each possible connection between the allignments of Kevin and Korts a possibility. Once again, this gives you the option to alter your opinion to what other players say.

Yup, I named each one, and I stated which possibility was the most possible. Even now, I'm not yet completely convinced that Korts is scum. I don't know how he plays in other games. I'm only voting for him because he seems the most suspicious to me at the current moment. But Korts took offense to it too easily. So I find that pretty weird.

And last where you were fence sitting was Kevin:
If he's town, he would do this.
If he's scum, he would do this as well.
If both are scum, we won't know.

So you took no chance regarding Kevin's allignment.

I shall assume that by 'Kevin' you meant Kmd.

That's why I stated in that post that I'm not very sure yet, so I'll need more information because I can't find any way to interpret his actions at that time.

What happened to Korts also happened to Soccer, but here you took more of a stance. But even then, you took every possibility.

Okay, I really don't understand who you mean by Soccer.

I named three games: Open 98, Mafia 87 (both as town) and mini 751 (scum)
Mafia 87 shows the meta argument the most for the town side, and you can compare it with mini 751.
It's a lot to post, and you can see his posts in context if you check it yourself.

Okay, I'll go check them later.

So wait, Korts is leaning too far to one side, which you don't like. But you also don't like it that Korts hasn't voted Percy. Wouldn't he be leaning too far to one side, if he voted Percy? To me, the answer is 'yes'. So I don't know what to think of these two quotes.

No - By that I meant that Korts

stated

that he would be biased against his lover partner, but his actions completely contradicted what he had said, so I think that he had only said that to seem town.

Two questions:
-How come you think that if Korts is scum, his partner is either me or DDD, while you know that scum can buss?

I know that scum can buss, but scum would try not to do so, especially when their partner is not yet under suspicion.

Unless he is already bussing his own scum partner and is ignoring you and DDD just to draw suspicion on himself and one of you.

Didn't you do this as well when confirming your vote against Korts?

But he was the one who did it first! D: And he purposely said that I'm scum even though there's not much proof, so I didn't see why I can't do that to him either. [/childishmindset]

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

But I thought you can't just trust your partner that easily? Mitey has also told me she isn't scum, but I still get slightly suspicious even though I'm trying very hard to trust her. I believe that we need to trust our partners in order to be able to catch the scum, since they are the only people we can privately talk with, but no matter how hard I try I'm still getting suspicious signals from Mitey. Why don't you have that problem?

Wishy washy? Not at all.

Wagon jumpy? I think I made it obvious that's exactly what I was doing.

And I thought wagon jumping was a scumtell?

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all.

Oh... does that mean your vote on me was just put to see if the scum will come and wagon me as well?

And your last sentence almost seems like you're disassociating yourself from the town. Instead of "the rest" or "the other" townies, it's "all the" townies which seems to imply that you're not one of us. Not that I put much stock in such slips, but it's just another point against you.

That I can explain. In

Newbie 754

, my first game - I was a Townie, and in one post I said "the other townies". However, they misinterpreted that to be that I knew the people I suspected were also townies, so they put that as a point against me, exaggerated it and got me lynched. I didn't want that to happen again, so I guess I'll admit it - it's because of that that I didn't use "the other" townies again. I don't want to be mislynched again because of a simple mistake.

[MiteyMouse]

Hi everyone...I'm sorry for my absence but, I haven't been well. I'll try to get a read and post tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now. I'm sorry.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Wishy washy? Not at all.

Wagon jumpy? I think I made it obvious that's exactly what I was doing.

And I thought wagon jumping was a scumtell?

You answered this yourself with your question to Korts. "I thought hopping on a wago,

without a reason

, was a scumtell." Since I had a reason; not a scumtell by your own assumed logic. Even when done without a reason, it also depends on who does it because it's part of some people's meta whether town or scum.

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all.

Oh... does that mean your vote on me was just put to see if the scum will come and wagon me as well?

That was amongst many possibilities of things that could've happened, yes.

And your last sentence almost seems like you're disassociating yourself from the town. Instead of "the rest" or "the other" townies, it's "all the" townies which seems to imply that you're not one of us. Not that I put much stock in such slips, but it's just another point against you.

That I can explain. In

Newbie 754

, my first game - I was a Townie, and in one post I said "the other townies". However, they misinterpreted that to be that I knew the people I suspected were also townies, so they put that as a point against me, exaggerated it and got me lynched. I didn't want that to happen again, so I guess I'll admit it - it's because of that that I didn't use "the other" townies again. I don't want to be mislynched again because of a simple mistake.

Hence why I don't put much stock in such "mistakes"; but it's better to note such things when I see them in case they are relevant instead of ignoring them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

But I thought you can't just trust your partner that easily? Mitey has also told me she isn't scum, but I still get slightly suspicious even though I'm trying very hard to trust her. I believe that we need to trust our partners in order to be able to catch the scum, since they are the only people we can privately talk with, but no matter how hard I try I'm still getting suspicious signals from Mitey. Why don't you have that problem?

[Percy]

I didn't ask for your agreement out of the gate; but if exaggeration is necessary somewhere, it is most definitely in the early game. You need to take the most definitive stance when there is very little to go on, otherwise the game will flounder in uncertainty--which helps the scum.

So you're saying that bad reasoning and construction of poor cases is the best way to start the day? I fundamentally disagree.

his post 30 is a good case of only information and not taking a stance. This was not the case in the games I've seen him as town (open 98 and twice in mafia 87). This however was the case in mini 751 (Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia modded by Tar).

Now let me deal with the meta stuff straight off the bat. Mafia 87 is a great example of why I am more cautious about launching at people. Note that a lot of the first day is me fighting with Scheherazade, and both of us were town. What a clusterfuck that was. Nowadays, I prefer to wait a little bit. It's not scummy to wait for a few pages before you start throwing your weight around. Advocating caution is not a scumtell.

We have two, maybe three choices to make. We have to get at least two of them right. And that's it. That's all the information we're going to get. No roles, NKs, or anything else that might help us out. Now why the hell do you want to rush into things?

So, if I as third party role would vote Korts, what would that give as information?
And if Kevin would vote DDD as scum, what would that give as information?

I don't see how a random vote gives information, so please explain.

I don't know what you mean by "third party role", and why would Kevin vote DDD as scum? That's the important part of the information we can gather.

Random voting is not truly random. That's how you get information from it.

So you think someone isn't producing info for the town, and therefore you vote someone random? Makes lots of sense...

Yeah, it does. A player, once corrected or called out on something, can change their playstyle and play protown. I voted DDD to make sure we didn't get tunnelled too soon, and to put someone on two votes just to see how they reacted.

You may have given your opinion, but you were still on the fence. You said Kmd's vote was not pro-town. That to me, is repeating Korts words, but only nicer. You clearly did not agree with Kevin's vote, yet you're saying that if he changes his vote, all will be forgiven. That's clearly not taking a stance.

I didn't like the vote. I said as much. I invited him to change his vote, and he hasn't. See below.

You've been here once (open 98). And this time, you (and Korts as well) are giving 'advice' to the scum. This makes lots of sense...

What do you mean by "been here once"? And I'm not giving advice to the scum - I'm pointing out that the strongest voice in anyone's lynch will be that person's partner. If the partner is gung ho, "let's lynch my lover", then we probably should. Do you disagree?

The possibility of a case being horrible is NOT a reason not to pursue cases.

The sooner a game is out of the RVS, the better.

No, it's not a reason to not pursue cases. It

is

a reason to take everything that everyone says with a grain of salt. Stop trying to get me to be irrational, because all it will do is add to the informationless chaos. I'll call things how I see them. I won't exaggerate.

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390

.

I also find it interesting that Kmd was satisfied with kirroha's "pick someone who hasn't posted, say their name and then say nothing about the game" approach to his question.

I find it even more interesting that you ignored this comment of mine.

You state what happened. You don't take any kind of stance. It's textbook IIOA.

Er, no it's not. I analysed the situation, and didn't take a strong stance because there wasn't one to take. IIoA is not fence-sitting scumtell, it's a "not intepreting what's happening in the game and stating your opinions about it" scumtell. I certainly interpreted what was going on, I just didn't express a

strong

opinion.

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.

Oh, I'm

very

happy with my vote on you. Why on earth are you defending ZazieR, given that she's not under threat at all,

and

using meta that cannot possibly tell us anything? Even if I concede that she's playing how she normally plays, she's a smart player and could easily fake her meta. This comment basically boils down to "trust me, she's town", and that's not unnecessary at this point, and also a crap argument. This is much worse than kirroha's buddying up to me.

Percy seems to not want to take stances. I see that as a major scum tell normally, and with the meta provided by Zaz, it makes it even more damning.

Hilarious. Did you even read my other games? What exactly about my play in the other games makes you think I'm scummy? Come on, be specific.

1) He's breaking up the fight because he knows well that it makes absolutely no sense. Pro-town and most likely, and this is why I unvoted him.
2) He is Korts's scumbuddy, and is trying to defend him from being lynched. Also, he voted Korts later on as distancing. This possibility doesn't make much sense, as if he's trying to break up the fight and protect Korts, his post won't have a sort-of "Korts, are you scum?" kind of feel to it.
3) He is scum while Korts and Kmd are Town, and since he's Kmd's lover, he doesn't want Kmd to get lynched, as it would result in his own death, and he doesn't want that. I also think this possibility is not very possible in this situation, as Kmd does not seem to be suspicious to anyone, and it is more likely for Korts to be suspected for his flawed logic.

These are the only possibilities, and 2) and 3)'s possibilities are very slim, so that's why I find him quite pro-town.

This says to me that you start off with the assumption that sonic is pro-town. If he's scum with Korts, then of course he's going to kind of attack Korts while breaking up the fight. If he's scum on his own, then he'd want to break up the fight, and maybe he jumped in too early, or a thousand other things. You're too quick to dismiss the scum possibilities, and too quick in concluding that he's protown.

Also, I have to agree with ZazieR's opinion of kirroha's buddying up to me. I don't think I've played a stellar game so far, so why does she want to make it look like I'm better than I've been playing?

kirroha, make sure you say who you're quoting when you quote. It makes it much easier to read.

Incoming opinion: I think that kirroha's initial post was quite scummy. However, I'm happy with her answers and clarifications right now. I'm worried that Korts is so ready to kill off another player, when we have other players (sonic, mitey, DDD) who have yet to generate any real content for us to sink our teeth into. He's jumped on some legitimate scumtells, but now he's acting like he's certain, and that's crap.

FoS: Korts

.

I also would like DDD to clarify what he finds scummy about kirroha's posts, and whether his scumread is getting bigger or smaller as she continues to post.

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

What exactly is the point of this post?

[Percy]

and that's not unnecessary at this point

EBWOP: "and that's not

un

necessary at this point".

[MiteyMouse]

I have done a quick read and have to agree with my plutonic partner (hehehe). I'm having a hard time trusting her but, feel the need to be able to talk pretty openly with her.

I'm still not feeling well and will post more content but, I'm feeling pretty bad right now. I'll post more very soon...I'm sorry everyone.

[hohum]

Amished replaces sonicchaos1993

[Amished]

Hi there, starting my read now

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is a good thing, replace an unknown with a player that I've good a real good read on.

[Percy]

FoS: DDD.

Lurking is anti-town. I have no idea why you would post how chummy and well versed in some player's meta you are, without commenting on the game itself, especially when questions have been posed to you. Your wagon-jump left a sour taste in my mouth as well; I thought "he's probably just applying pressure", but I'm less satisfied with this pro-town explanation now.


Welcome, Amished!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

FoS: DDD.

Lurking is anti-town. I have no idea why you would post how chummy and well versed in some player's meta you are, without commenting on the game itself, especially when questions have been posed to you. Your wagon-jump left a sour taste in my mouth as well; I thought "he's probably just applying pressure", but I'm less satisfied with this pro-town explanation now.

Percy, I'm clearly not lurking, the last time I posted was a touch over twenty four hours ago. The only person who posted any content since that time was you. So I'm basically the last person you can accurately call out for lurking, yet that's the reason you call me out. Interesting.

To answer your question though, kirroha hasn't helped herself at all, really. Amongst other things she "confirms" her vote on Korts and then in her next post she voices her uncertainty of her own position. It looks to my eye as if she's trying to rally support to her position by projecting strength while simultaneously distancing herself from the mislynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

EBWOP: from the potential mislynch.